TECH:Clearcoat or not for my Space Shuttle Playfield (kinda long)
beaver
decide to clearcoat or not. I wrote some experts, and notably
Christopher Hutchins declined to take on my project because it is a pre
90s machine, and issues with inserts may occur. This gave me pause,
and I did a lot of reading on RGP on this issue. I request the experts
here to advise me what to do.
History:
This playfield is from a 1984 Williams Space Shuttle that I purchased
from Dave Astill (Toronto). It was mylared, which I removed as it was
pitted and beyond buffing.
Touchups were nothing major:
Area north of pop bumpers (about 1 square inch total).
Repainted the two ball locks areas with acrylic paint.
Small touchups here and there:
http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/playfield2.htm#touchups
Condition:
There are small areas that were not covered by mylar that have ball
swirls that do not come out.
In areas that were mylared one can see fine surface crazing, which may
be normal for 20yr old paint:
http://www.edcheung.com/dropbox/clean1.jpg
No detectable issues with inserts using strong light under playfield:
http://www.edcheung.com/dropbox/clean.jpg
Environment:
A dozen plays a week max expected (novelty has worn off with the kids).
It is in my dry basement, so no UV, near constant temp and humidity.
Cons of clearcoat as far as I can tell from past RGP articles:
-Cannot touchup or improve once sealed.
-Long term (>10 years) ageing unknown. Once done, it is on forever.
-Costs money ~$300
-Some clearcoaters need to have bottom stripped of parts. Right now,
lamps and harness on bottom.
-Shipping can be risky (damage, loss)
-May affect value negatively for some people. Clearcoat can be added
later, but not removed.
-Risk (low) of technical problems during process that lead to visible
defects later.
Pros of clearcoat as far as I can tell:
-Brings out the darker colors as it fills in the tiny cracks that
difract light.
-Hard layer seals and protects existing paint from further damage.
-Makes playfield shiny and glossy. Many consider that very beautiful.
My priorities (from high to low):
1) Don't cause damage to this playfield. I may never get another one
like this again.
2) Enhance the beauty of the playfield.
3) Preserve the paint as I intend to keep this machine a long time.
Questions:
1) Do you agree with my pros and cons
2) What would YOU do if you were in my shoes?
Right now, based on all the posts I have read, I think I can just use
several coats of wax to accomplish my priorities, and I am inclined
against clearcoating, but I seek advice on how to proceed. Thank you
very much.
Edward Cheung
Pin Geek
--
Josh
http://www.pingeek.com
Pinball dvds for sale online and at The York Show, 10/7 - 10/8,
http://www.theyorkshow.com
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote in message
news:1127957367....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
deafdumb&blindboy
Nice job so far. I'm not a big fan of acrylics, but you seem to have
them under control. If you try to use acrylics for any larger areas
it's practically impossible to prevent brush marks even with the drying
extender. But if you want to go auto clearcoat, you don't have a
choice.
I think you ought to think about Varathane. Obviously you have the
painting skills to handle it. While I have always used spray varathane,
I have seen a couple jobs done by Gregg B. AKA PinDude here where he
poured liquid Varathane from the can on quite heavily and let it
self-level and the excess run off. Very impressive results. No thin
spots, thats for sure. Durability? Lifetime, in my estimation. But even
if you go the spray route, you'll find you can get the results you
want, i.e., protection, durability, glossy beauty. The problem with wax
alone is as soon as it wears off, which is quicker than one might
think, if your balls are not perfectly clean then you are wearing the
PF, guaranteed. Especially in high wear areas. If you don't want to
worry about it ever again but dont want to spend big bucks having
someone else auto clearcoat it, then Varathane it yourself. Also, as
Clay says, the Varathane could be removed if you absolutely wanted to
WITHOUT destroying the underlying PF. You can't say that about auto
clears. They will bond with the colors forever.
A couple of tips- wet sand the PF with 1000 grit wetordry and Novus 1
as your liquid. The Novus 1 is less reactive with touchups and the
original paints than water or anything else. If you've got a primo
surface to begin with, than you won't need a whole bunch of coats,
maybe three. One $7 can of Varathane will do the light first coat and
the subsequent two thick ones. #1-it will make your inserts look like
new again, even ones where the original surface has broken through to
the printing. #2 - you won't have to worry about shipping (which is
expensive and can damage the PF) #3 - guess what-you CAN touchup and
improve whenever you want, all you have to do is spray on some more
Varathane to encapsulate the repairs.
Done right, Varathane is tits. Done wrong, varathane is dimples.
Dimples might be cute on little girls, but for me, I like big girls
(and big tits) so Varathane right and everyone will admire your PF just
like they admire a nice pair of tits. Trust me, it's not difficult, and
the payoff is huge. (almost like a tit job, but a lot cheaper)
Mrhide
Just stop kicking yourself and go for the clearcoat! You won't regret
it! ITS WORTH IT.
you say: May affect value negatively for some people.
and then you add
3) Preserve the paint as I intend to keep this machine a long time.
so you don't care about "some people" ... you want to game for yourself
so just DO IT :)
another "depreciated clearcoat" that I intend to keep forever:
http://mrhide.pinnesota.org/gallery/pinbot
Phil
deafdumb&blindboy
machine, and compare cost vs. results, and tell me which is the better
route. www.passionforpinball.com And this is from another Pinbot
owner who has been down that route. I guess I'm just a fan of Cliffy's
work, since I seem to recognize genius when I encounter it. :) I
haven't yet varathaned mine since it's not needing it, having had been
mylared early and well. When my mylar is shot, I'll do it though.
Mrhide
Hey I started with varathane too. on totan !
shooting 8 coats with a can is a pain... waiting 60 days to play it
another.
shooting 3 coats of autoclear and playing the game after a week is a
big plus.
Each work very well IMO.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
To me, it's a no-brainer: Clearcoat it.
Reason 1: It's your game. You're keeping it to enjoy. You want it to look
it's best and preserve it.
Dilemma solved.
It would be silly not to clearcoat it. You've >>>SUCCESSFULLY<<< removed
the mylar (congratulations a thousand times over- you're a better man than
I), and to play on that virgin playfield surface is sacrilige- clearcoat
that puppy. Especially while you've got all the parts torn off of it and
it's nearly ready for clearcoat anyway.
Next, don't skimp at this point- use the *good* clearcoat- DuPont Chroma
Clear 7600S or Imron- something commercial, catalyzed, and that will last
and do you well. This is not the time for Varathane (when is it time for
Varathane? Oh yes- anything Gottlieb <ducks tomatoes>).
If you're not up to the task, employ someone who is- local auto-body shop,
or send out to Bill Davis, etc.
To me, cost is not an issue on stuff like this- if the game/field is in good
enough condition to even consider coating it, then you've got a good
candidate and I recommend pressing forward- ignore cost at that point. It's
an all-or-nothing deal- don't skimp on anything after you've made the
decision to clearcoat- otherwise you will regret it- both the costs invested
and the lower-quality of the finished (skimped) job. Keep the quality up,
despite cost. It's worth it.
More comments:
> There are small areas that were not covered by mylar that have ball
> swirls that do not come out.
> In areas that were mylared one can see fine surface crazing, which may
> be normal for 20yr old paint:
Mr. Clean Magic Eraser will help with both of these issues- I'd recommend
this treatment, then full cleaning, then prep for clearcoat. The idea prior
to clearcoat is to get the field as nice as you will ever want it to be-
touchups, cleaning, etc. Then seal it "for all time and eternity" with
clearcoat.
> Cons of clearcoat as far as I can tell from past RGP articles:
> -Cannot touchup or improve once sealed.
But that's the idea- you're sealing the field and preventing any wear/damage
to it. Again, get it as nice as you will ever want it *before* you
clearcot, then clearcoat it- seal the deal.
Now, you can in fact touch something up after clearcoating if something
happens- oversight, or wear, or damage- if you don't put a *ton* of
clearcoat on the field. A lot of clearcoat isn't really necessary- Williams
and Stern use very little on their fields, and they do hold up relatively
well in the commercial environment. Most of us in the hobby prefer a bit
more clearcoat- it looks good and really adds protection- but don't go
crazy. Make it 2 coats or 4 at maximum and that will be thin enough that
you can wet-sand down or spot repair/re-clearcoat if the need arises.
> -Some clearcoaters need to have bottom stripped of parts. Right now,
> lamps and harness on bottom.
I think if you're sending this out to be done, most anyone will want it
stripped- at this point whats another couple hours of work? If anything,
it's also a chance to clean the bottom of the field and those parts. ;) I'd
strip it, or see if you can at least bundle it all up and seal it off, and
of course plug up all the holes on the top side so the clearcoat doesn't get
into lamp sockets or through open holes into wiring, etc.
> -May affect value negatively for some people. Clearcoat can be added
> later, but not removed.
Depends on how well it's done- a good job will increase the value. Put
varathane on it, brush your material on (instead of spray) or otherwise do a
shoddy job, and yes- you've decreased the value of the game.
Keep in mind, too, that "wear" can be added later but not removed- if the
field isn't clearcoated. You're clearcoating to prevent wear.
Realize also, that a lot of "factory" fields were clearcoated, yet we can
continue to restore, and re-clearcoat those. So if you don't "over do" the
clearcoating (as mentioned above), then you're really not doing anything
more than turning your Space Shuttle field into a "Diamondplate" field, effe
ctively. Just like the factory did on later games.
I don't know what the issue would be with the lamp inserts as you mentioned
regarding Chris Hutchins- unless it's the fact that later games had a
tighter margin between the insert and playfield whereas older games did not-
this can leave a gap after clearcoating, but if you're having someone do the
clearcoating that knows what they're doing, this isn't a problem- can be
handled properly so there's no problems with it. I've shot lots of fields-
old and new- and if you know what you're doing and take the time to do it
right, it can be done and done well.
The one thing about leaving the field uncoated and "waxing" it as you go-
while that is fine and good practice- is that wax will stay in any
microscopic cracks or defects in the field, and dry white, making those
cracks and defects all the more noticeable. Very unappealing- I've had
fields that we've cleaned, polished, and buffed, then threw on some wax,
only to see all the microscopic details come to painful visibility.
Clearcoat will prevent that.
Good luck!
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote in message
news:1127957367....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
against Varathane. To suffice, why eat a burger when you can have steak?
This kind of work is not the place to cut corners or skimp- on cost or
quality- it all pays off in the end.
Pass up the ground round and go for the steak.
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"deafdumb&blindboy" <ildu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1127959871.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Fred Kemper
(If you know what you are doing.)
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
======================
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
Varathane and better product like ChromaClear or Imron, I'll go with what's
better out there. Burger vs. steak. No consideration of cost!
Just my pick!
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message
news:1128010980.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
For Amusement Only
You should be able to get Cattleman's steak sauce at your local grocery
store BTW
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
>
--
Dave Mercer
For Amusement Only
943 Butte Pass Dr
Fort Collins, CO 80526
970-282-8282
970-223-2372 fax
Paypal payments can be made to
pay...@foramusementonly.to
Please visit our website for your pinball needs
http://www.foramusementonly.to
Karl
Auto clear with several coats, is that any indication of which way to
go?
What do you think they would do if you asked them to do your repro AFM
playfield with verathane (aka mop & glow). They'd probably say your
nuts!
Auto clear is the way to go if you ask me....
Karl.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> Figures that Ray would use a steak analogy here....
>
> You should be able to get Cattleman's steak sauce at your local grocery
> store BTW
Oh yeah! Heading for the Mangy Moose in Jackson WY in a week or two for one
of their baseball-cut sirloins and Canadian beer on tap. Best steak in the
country! I'll send you a pic, Dave!
7-1/2 months to Cattlemens!
BTW- Avoid Stuart Anderson's Black Angus. Wife and I went there about 3-4
years ago and it was fantastic, but visited last week for our anniversary
and it was terrible- shoe leather disguised as a New York strip- I can get a
better steak at a local "family restaurant" run by Vietnamese refugees. And
horrible service, too. Lobby smelled like they had a sewer leak going on-
nasty. Avoid avoid avoid...
Tastebuds still recovering but prognosis positive (everything currently
tastes like chicken)...
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> What do you think they would do if you asked them to do your repro AFM
> playfield with verathane (aka mop & glow). They'd probably say your
> nuts!
ROTFLMAO! Good one!
Fred Kemper
that Mop & Glo, and I'm going to try it out
on my FH!
That was one of the best ideas I've read on the
group in quite some time.
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
===========================
deafdumb&blindboy
thrown on the grill. Say what you want in the burger vs. steak wars.
#1: It ain't a freakin' Ferrari, it's a Space Shuttle. A twenty year
old pinball machine. Imron on your Space Station? Christ, the cost of
Imron would be more than the replacement value of the whole machine!
Give me a break. People talkin like this is some frickin Rembrandt or
Renoir. It's a PINBALL MACHINE fer chrissakes! Just like Fred said-do
it right and Varathane is just fine. No one will be able to tell the
difference if you do it right. Then Mop and Glo away, while you enjoy
that nice steak that you can afford to buy since you didn't spend all
your dough on Imron.
syn...@gmail.com
City I'll be glad to take you to the Hereford House so you can enjoy
one of the best. You won't find it listed as a New York Strip on any
menu in Kansas City (not for long anyway).
It was developed to be a more marketable name for the balance of the
t-bone steak after the filet and bone were removed. Rumor has it, that
development was undertaken in Kansas City which I tend to believe since
my Grandfather was in the livestock business for 60+ years.
Mike Doyle
Cliffy
that proves Varathane is not only satisfactory but in my opinion the
best for wooden playfields. Apparently your mileage varied :)
Fact: Varathane is formulated for - HELLO!- WOOD!
Dupont Imron and Chromaclear is formulated for cars.
Fact: My pins look drop dead gorgeous under Varathane and show no signs
of wear. I *have* seen what auto clears look like after a few ball
drops. Not all, mind you, but some have had spiderwebbing where the
balls dropped from a wireform ramp. The autoclear was too thick and
brittle. This may be more a function of the mix or the application but
suffice to say I have never seen this on my Varathaned games.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
> Without going into excruciatingly long drawn-out detail, I'm painfully
> against Varathane. To suffice, why eat a burger when you can have steak?
> This kind of work is not the place to cut corners or skimp- on cost or
> quality- it all pays off in the end.
>
> Pass up the ground round and go for the steak.
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
>
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Karl
Fred Kemper wrote:
> Actually, my wife picked up a big ol can of
> that Mop & Glo, and I'm going to try it out
> on my FH!
I knew it!!!!!!!!! :)
>
> That was one of the best ideas I've read on the
> group in quite some time.
LOL, you crack me up Fred!
>
> Fred
> TX
> CARGPB#8
> ===========================
Have fun, Karl.
Otto
:>)
Otto
CARGPB11
My web page: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-Ottoslanding
"Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message
news:1128026329.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
beaver
At this point, I have thought things over, and have ordered two cans of
Varathane. That will give me some more days to ponder things over.
However, if I look at my pros and cons, I think the Varathane will be
my best bet. It is probably removable with a solvent such as Goof Off,
does not require me to ship the playfield out, and will give me the
gloss and new look that I would like (but last longer than wax and not
show the cracks).
I like dd&b boy's idea of using Novus 1 as the sanding fluid as I did
not want to use water, and thought Naphtha would just evaporate too
fast. From previous posts, the playfield will be horizontal, and then
I spray in the width direction with overlapping strokes. My first pass
will be very light, and then I will probably only put down 2 full
coats. So not too thick.
I just ordered the #200081 Varathane from doityourselfwarehouse.com, I
hope they don't follow up in a few days with "no stock".
I also learned how a thread can go from clearcoating a pinball
playfield to good/bad steak restaurants 8-).
Edward Cheung
Karl
beaver wrote:
> Thank you all for reading and commenting.
>
> At this point, I have thought things over, and have ordered two cans of
> However, if I look at my pros and cons, I think the Mop $ Glow will be
> my laziest bet. It is probably removable (becasue I know it will not last long) with a solvent such as Goof Off,
> does not require me to ship the playfield out to be done by a professional body shop, and will give me the
> gloss and sub-par look that I would like (but last longer than wax and not
> show the cracks).
>
> I like dd&b boy's idea of using Goat Urine as the sanding fluid as I did
> not want to use water, and thought Naphtha would just evaporate too
> fast. From previous posts, the playfield will be horizontal, and then
> will be very light, and then I will probably only put down 2 full
> coats. So not too thick.
>
>
> I just ordered the #200081 Mop & Glow from doityourselfwarehouse.com, I
> hope they don't follow up in a few days with "order has shipped".
>
> I also learned how a thread can go from clearcoating a pinball
> playfield to good/bad steak restaurants 8-).
>
> Edward Cheung
Wow, So scary when you read it closely.
Karl.
beaver
Edward Cheung
deafdumb&blindboy
stampeding herd. I, and Fred, and Cliffy all salute your decision.
Remember-any finished product is only as good as it's prep. Be diligent
but not heavy handed with the sanding, use finer grit than you want to
and sand more time with less surface removal, and above all, be
patient. To tell you the truth, this work is a bitch. But the end
result is worth the work. Even my very first Varathane job on my
Firepower 2 still looks great- no swirls, no spider cracks, and no
wear. Five coats plus filling in low spots with liquid V-thane did the
trick. Make sure your inserts aren't too high or low as that will ruin
the rest of your hard work. And I was playing mine 3 weeks after doing
it, although it did get some serious sun time to cure it. And enjoy!
There's a lot of satisfaction to be had when you can look at a job well
done every time you play it.
And for me, there's no place that beats the Cattleman's in Guadalupe
(near Pismo) for a good steak. And no real steak lover puts some
ketchup-based sauce on their steak. I throw people out of my house for
even asking. Watch next time some clown puts steak sauce on their
steak. Did they taste it first? Hell no. And likely, they won't taste
it after defiling it with that crap, either. I ran the grill in a steak
and seafood joint for a long time, I'm no char-latan. Ha Ha. Pun
intended.
Karl
beaver wrote:
> I am certainly open to suggestions for improvement.
>
> Edward Cheung
Sorry to rain on your parade Mr. Cheung and I'm sure the verathane will
also look much better than it is now.
I guess it's me, but after the touch ups I go to a local body shop and
(for about $50), just have them shoot it, no big deal. V. seems like
such a lesser job on such a rare PF, again maybe just me. I shouldn't
be insulting about it but I did my space shuttle this way (Mesa Bruce
clearcoat, search google for process) with alot more touch up than I
planned on and it still came out looking and playing better than new.
Very fast and smooth.
I'd be happy to email you a few pics, just do it as best you can
especialy prep.
GodSpeed whith the PF restore, it is IMO the most fun and rewarding
part of this hobby.
Karl.
Karl
> Remember-any finished product is only as good as it's prep.
Well said.
Be diligent
> but not heavy handed with the sanding,
But do still sand very well, you want to sand away the yellowed varnish
layer as much as possible without going into the color/ink. It takes
several hours and about 3 or four sheets, two wet and last two dry. It
really wakes up the whites and colors, Or do you mop & glow guys not do
this either?!!! :) Do the last sanding with 600 wet/dry using it dry so
surface has more roughness.
Then take to body shop, oh sorry, get out the wonder mop! :)
Stampeding heard signing out,
Karl.
Fred Kemper
any fluid if you use a fine enough sandpaper.
1000 grit or finer works well.
And hamburger IS ground steak: Even better
as you don't have to chew as much....
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote
Karl
Fred Kemper wrote:
> If you use the Varathane, you shouldn't require
> any fluid if you use a fine enough sandpaper.
> 1000 grit or finer works well.
So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
>
> And hamburger IS ground steak: Even better
> as you don't have to chew as much....
I like to make large thin patties, by the time they cook and shrink
they are just right. A burger with red wine mushroom gravy and swiss
golden melted on top is another great way to enjoy them.
Have fun, Karl.
Cliffy
games? I've sat back and read a lot of your negative comments and
whenevr I see people do this I have to wonder if they speak from
experience. To spread disinformation in such a cavalier manner suggests
you probably have not seen a good Varathane job. FYI Varathane is
urethane, just like auto clears but without the catalyst. Varathane uses
inter polymer networking which binds the urethane molecules without the
need for a hot catalyst. The end product is still a hardened urethane.
The difference is that Varathane is formulated to be less hard than an
automotive urethane. This allows it to breathe with the wood, a
substance known to many of us because its what our playfields are made
from :)
I was utterly disappointed in Ray Johnsons statement disrespecting those
of us who use Varathane and the product itself. I consider him a friend
and his remarks won't change that but I was totally blindsided by his
post. He himself has seen at least one of my restored games and noted
how beautiful it was. That was at least 3, maybe 4 years ago? And you
know what? It's still as beautiful today with absolutely NO signs of
wear. Bah.
You don't like Varathane, Karl? Great! Tell the world you don't like it
and move on. But please, calling it mop and glow is disrespectful to
those of us who happen to know what the hell we are doing. Those
statements would imply you think we are stupid for using a product
designed for the application. Now, how dumb is that? See the statement
you made below? A blanket statement. Why? What is your point? Is it your
intention to create an "us vs them" atmosphere? To what end? Do tell.
Karl wrote:
> So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
> layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
>
>
> Have fun, Karl.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> I was utterly disappointed in Ray Johnsons statement disrespecting those
> of us who use Varathane and the product itself. I consider him a friend
> and his remarks won't change that but I was totally blindsided by his
> post. He himself has seen at least one of my restored games and noted
> how beautiful it was. That was at least 3, maybe 4 years ago? And you
> know what? It's still as beautiful today with absolutely NO signs of
> wear. Bah.
No disrespect intended, Cliffy, although some of my comments this last week
have been a little "firey"- necessarily or unnecessarily- I've seen your
games and you do fine work and I certainly can't knock it one tad. I'm just
not swayed by Varathane- not the product of my personal choice. I've seen a
lot of botched Varathane jobs and "misuses" which have probably tainted my
opinions of it, but screw-ups can be done as easily with anything else too.
Keep those shiny games going!
Cliffy
Choice is what makes the world go 'round. I would hope we can all put
our money on whatever horse we like without calling the other guys horse
into question, or at least, the right to make that choice :)
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
>
> No disrespect intended, Cliffy, although some of my comments this last week
> have been a little "firey"- necessarily or unnecessarily- I've seen your
> games and you do fine work and I certainly can't knock it one tad. I'm just
> not swayed by Varathane- not the product of my personal choice. I've seen a
> lot of botched Varathane jobs and "misuses" which have probably tainted my
> opinions of it, but screw-ups can be done as easily with anything else too.
> Keep those shiny games going!
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
Karl
Cliffy wrote:
Have you ever seen my restored
> games?
No and I'm sure your work is great just by knowing you here in the
group. No question. The protectors and other the things you've done to
help the pinball world will live on beyond both of us, yes your work is
that good.
But please, calling it mop and glow is disrespectful to
> those of us who happen to know what the hell we are doing.
to create an "us vs them" atmosphere? To what end?
Do tell.
With all due respect Cliffy, if I'm going overboard I appreciate your
letting me know and I'll adjust me level of "kidding around" down a few
notches. I'm no Gaweee, thanks for the check. :)
See the statement
> you made below? A blanket statement. Why? What is your point? Is it your
> intention
A couple folks here got a kick out of it, it was only meant to be a
unserious jab, in fun. The smiley face was supposed to indicate "just a
wise crack here, not serious attack".
> Karl wrote:
> > So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
> > layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
> >
So what about this issue? Does everyone else do this too? I highly
recommend sanding out as much of the yellow as possible before apllying
"clear of coice" (as I will call it from now on). :)
> >
> > Have fun, Karl.
>
> --
> Cliffy - CARGPB2
> A passion for pinball!
> http://www.passionforpinball.com
Best wishes Cliffy, Karl.
Cliffy
here quite a bit, I'm sure. However, when I see others (maybe not you)
speak as if with authority it grates a little. Opinions are fine,
judgements without experience are not and are misleading to newbies.
Normally I wouldn't really care because I know the truth myself and am
not swayed by others misinformation. But when I see others actually
believe this stuff I feel I have an obligation to rectify the situation.
Again, I'm not saying you would purposely predicate such misinformation
or disrespect for others, although I do see you will join the fray even
if only for a laugh :) Thats ok too and I'm sorry if I took your jabs
too seriously. Back to the fun :)
c...@provide.net
I have used Varathane *and* Auto Urethanes extensively. That's both.
I have even used auto clears with a brush, and of course spray.
I'm not bragging, but i have extensively used both products.
I'm not sure that either Ray or Cliffy could say that. I have
also been clear coating playfields probably longer than just
about anyone else. Most of the people doing professional playfield
clearcoats are using the products and methods i recommented on
my webpages. I might even be one of the pioneers of clearcoating
(I'm pretty sure Fred blames me for that! ha!) I'm not bragging,
i'm just stating that so what i am about to say has some "tooth"
to it. I didn't just show up with a spray can.
I currently have in my collection about a 40/60 mix of Varathane
and Auto Clear (respectively) games. I would say, without getting
a magnifier out, you probably could not tell which was which
(including even the brushed games).
Can you tell a difference in how they play? nah. Looks are
pretty similar too. How about wear? well i guess i just don't
play my games enough to really judge that because you can't
see wear on either. So really what is the difference between
the two?
Well Varathane is reversible. Not that i'll even need to do
that, but it is undoable. I consider that a good thing, but
some people don't think that's good. Auto clear is not reversible.
Auto clear does *seem* to be a harder and shinier finish. But i have
no real way to test that. Also you don't need any special equipment
(compressor and gun) to spray Varathane. Auto clear is also freakin
dangerous stuff! Varathane is not.
The only reason i really stopped using Varathane was the amount
of work/time involved. With auto clear, i can put down 2 or 3 coats,
let it dry overnight and level it, and put down one or two additional
coats the next day. I can assemble the game a day after that.
But with Varathane, it takes me a week to put down the needed
six coats, and then another 3 to 4 weeks of dry time. It just
takes too long for me (impatient). I can't let a game sit there
for 4 weeks waiting to be assembled. it drives me nuts.
But the end result with either is awesome. Come over and look.
I don't think you could easily tell what was Varathanes and what
was Auto Urethaned. They both work good! The one to pick is the
one that fits your personal style and particular application.
There's really no need to argue about it.
Karl
Cliffy wrote:
Back to the fun :)
>
In best Eric Kartman voice.... "Man, I love you guys"........
Yes, back to the fun :)
Karl.
cch...@comcast.net
a need to use any more expensive finishes.
-cody
CARGPB#4
c...@provide.net wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> I have used Varathane *and* Auto Urethanes extensively.
~snip~
c...@provide.net
more expensive. Assuming you already have the compressor and spray gun.
A can of varathane is about $6 to $8. I would usually use 2 to 4 cans,
depending on the application. If you use one of the less expensive
auto clears (which by the way work great!) like Omni AU, you can get
a quart of urthane plus activator bottle for less than $30. That will
do
a number of playfields! So actually for a product cost, Auto Urethanes
are cheaper. Just if you want to spray them you need a compressor
and a gun. If you don't own that stuff obviously the cost will be
greater.
deafdumb&blindboy
you if we flog it some more, we'll end up with a new substance that we
find is superior for coating playfields than EVERYTHING else out there.
All it takes is beating it to the right consistency.
I have to give you credit Clay, along with most others here, for doing
the work and documenting it for the world to see. I've worked on boats
most of my life, both for a living and now as a hobby, laying down coat
after coat of varnish. My own boat and the antique Mills slots I've
restored are a testimonial. It's difficult, unforgiving shit to work
with. Not that I would try to do it to a playfield, since all the UV
inhibitors are yellowing, but I have used Varathane and Durathane
extensively before I ever bought a pin and nobody had to sell me on
their ease of application and quality of their results - that was a
given. So when I discovered your site and read the tips on how to do
it, is was a no-brainer. I also read the auto clear section at the same
time and, even though I have a compresser and everything but the right
gun, it made more sense for ME to go with the Varathane. To each their
own, right? I've seen enough Imron and the like sprayed in boatyards to
know just how toxic that shit is. Beautiful results, though, no doubt
about it.
Personally, I've had great results with doubling up the coats of
Varathane - two per day, and I was just following the instructions on
the can. I live in an arid environment and stuff dries fast, so I've
reassembled after two weeks with only the merest settling of PF parts
into the surface, never enough to require "unsticking" them upon
removal. And I've also used the Minwax stuff, although I don't
particularly like their products except for those stain pens as they're
so damn convenient. And I had just as good of results. I can always
find either one at any local hardware store rather than driving the
half-hour to the auto paint supply house, which is owned by a local
crook anyway. Bastard tried to gouge me $90 for a half pint of a custom
color after telling me it would be $50. (He neglected to mention costs
of color matching and the actual paint itself.) And all these issues
with "formulated for wood vs. metal" I think are irrelevant - most
quality urethanes can be applied to any properly prepped surface, and
boats prove that. Fiberglass, aluminum, steel, straked or cold-molded
wood, it matters not one bit.
I like this back and forth shit with everyone because to me it's both
enlightening and entertaining. I don't watch TV so I gotta get my kicks
from the outside world somehow, right? As long as people realize that
1. It's just Pinball and 2. there's no need to get righteous, vicious,
condescending, threatening, or vindictive about what people say and do
regarding it. Everyone has their POV, some are more enlightened than
others, some are just plain boorish, but like they say, opinions are
like a**holes, everyone's got one. Doesn't mean that you should go
around in public flaunting it, but so long as it's clean and not too
offensive than this forum is the place to air it out. Opinions, that is.
c...@provide.net
shower! That stuff sucks environmentally. i just fell "dirty"
after i spray it. i wear a mask and eye protection (you MUST
do that). maybe i should get those $1 plastic suits to spray
in too! that stuff is so damn toxic. with varathane i can eat
a sandwich and spray it.
but in the end it's whatever works for you. both have their
merits and both give great results. i'm going with the auto
clears now because of the quickness. the varathane process
takes too long for me (impatient).
also there are a couple other things to consider. first,
i would never use Varathane on a 1990s diamondplate game for
example. it was original sprayed with auto urethane, so best to
stay that way. on older lacquer PFs though, you can use either
auto urethane or varathane and get excellent results.
Also the arguement that Varathane is for wood and auto clears
are for metal is just bull. you're not putting varathane over
wood anyway, you're putting it over lacquer (or your touchup
paint). And as you said, they have both been used on wood and
metal and both perform well on either.
in the end, use whatever you are comfortable with or that
you can apply in a safe manner. both auto urethane and
varathane work great on playfields and give great results!
Fred Kemper
use them on anything unless it was absolute junk
before I started. That means otherwise "unsalvagable".
I'd never use it on a NOS p/f for example.
I own all the equipment to do it, and have painted
quite a few vehicles over the years. I still have those
skills.
It's that 'mechanic' gig I have...
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
<c...@provide.net> wrote
deafdumb&blindboy
put Varathane on a 90's PF or an NOS one. (damn steak just won't go
away from this thread!) ;) You don't paint a Ferrari with Krylon out
of the spray can, right?
I also get my Varathane free since I handle all the maintenance at work
and just put it on the Ace Hardware account, which I can't do for auto
clears, since we're not in the auto biz, although I could probably come
up with some machine or something that absolutely needed that type of
paint. (yeah, sure-sewing machines needing hard urethane
clearcoats..)Once in awhile I get questioned if my purchases get a
little, shall we say, unorthodox for maintenance. (Uhh, I'm using it to
refinish the outdoor benches. Didn't you notice how nice and shiny they
are??) The perks of working in your family biz. (Which HARDLY makes up
for the other hassles, believe me!)