WPRR question re: New England Pinball Championship
seymour...@excite.com
associated with it?
TIA,
-scott CARGPB#29
seymour...@excite.com
> Does the New England Pinball Championship even have any WPRR points
> associated with it?
>
> TIA,
>
Sorry that's WPPR!
Josh Sharpe
scoring. Anybody that participates will get at least a fraction of a
point.
Good luck to the competitors!
Josh
On Jul 27, 9:47 am, "seymour-sha...@excite.com" <seymour-
sha...@excite.com> wrote:
seymour...@excite.com
> Absolutely!! It will counted as a normal annual event in terms of WPPR
> scoring. Anybody that participates will get at least a fraction of a
> point.
>
> Good luck to the competitors!
> Josh
>
OK, I have an interesting question then - since this takes place at a
person's private home, how come the P3 organizers were turned down to
do the same at a private home? (Coincidentally, mine, but it is a
question worth pursuing....... what is the criteria used in deciding
what is a public venue and what isn't? PAPA is not really a public
facility for instance although I wish it were.)
-scott CARGPB#29
Pin Wiz Jr.
news:1185551365.8...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I was wondering about that. I run the Fairfax Monthly Pinball Tournament at
a local bar which has 11 games, but the op is moving a couple out. 10 games
support 40 players, while 9 games support just 19 in the tournament format.
The 'Blonder Arcade' has 20 games, and would support 80 people. I was
thinking about moving it away from John's Place (the bar) once two games got
taken out, but I thought that would make WPPRs unavailable.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.fspazone.org
www.virginiapinball.org
Josh Sharpe
about, especially lately.
As far as the argument that PAPA is a private facility, I think there
is clearly a difference between PAPA World Headquarters, and someone's
basement.
Beyond that, the things we look at in terms of making an exception to
allowing the private venue to count towards the rankings are: the type
of event that is being run (annual versus a more frequent event), the
promotional push to get players to that event, and the ability for
that event to not turn away anybody at the door.
In looking at Pin-Mania, we determined that with the promotion the BPA
and John have put on for their event, along with the ability for John
to accomodate 40, 50, 60, 100 players at his place, that the inclusion
of this tournament was something we were willing to allow. You could
look at it in the same way with PAPA. Obviously Kevin can easily
accomodate 200, 300, 400 players at his facility, does active large
scale promotions for the event, and the event itself is the premiere
competitive pinball event in the World.
When we moved to discussing smaller scale monthly events, more cons
started to pop up than pros to include these events. The main goal of
these events is to get more players involved, and we found that the
best way to maximize the ability to get new players involved came from
holding these events at public venues and actively promoting them at
those locations. We also have seen issues with certain people not
being "allowed" in someone's home (for some reason or another) and the
ability for that person's basement to have a reasonable maximum
capacity (could you handle 60 people showing up on a random tournament
night?). We also do not want to open ourselves up to everyone starting
a "tournament" in their basement and sending us results of the Smith
Family Tournament for September 2007 with the dog finishing in 4th
place. I believe this is a problem Bowen ran into with his Pinball
Rating System where any head-to-head match was counted regardless of
where that match was played.
In the end it really comes down to my true mission for the IFPA,
especially on the local scale, which is for players to be the driving
force in showing operators that there is still an interest in the
community for pinball, and that more importantly, operators can earn
with pinball by the inclusion of these types of tournaments and
promotions, while keeping the games maintained.
It's a tough goal to achieve, but something i was able to do on my
college campus when I attended the University of Illinois. Instead of
holding events in my apartment at the time, I worked with the operator
(even got a job as a tech to maintain the equipment), ran leagues and
tournaments, and actually got the pinballs profitable enough to
warrant the purchase of additional games by the operator. I was also
able to get many more new players interested by the advertising and
promotion done at the location compared to what I could have done
holding something at my residence.
Could this be something modified in the future? Absolutely . . . but
for now we're dealing with these on a case by case basis.
My push for you Ethan would be to push back to the operator about your
ideas to increase the revenue for those games. Get local merchants
involved in giving out prizes for your monthly tournaments, and in
return maybe that merchant gets the spotlight advertisement on those
machines for the month. The FMPT for August, sponsored by Chuck's
Pizza (maybe they donate a large pizza for the winner). It's something
I was able to do really well in Champaign, the games always had flyers
on the backglass with sponsors, prizes, etc for that particular event.
I would hate to give up the fight and move it to your dad's basement,
even though from the newscast I saw, you guys could handle a
significant crowd :-)
Sorry for the long winded soap box reply, but hopefully you see where
I'm coming at in terms of WPPR points, and the bigger picture ideas
and aspirations of what we're trying to accomplish with everyone's
help.
thanks,
Josh
On Jul 27, 10:53 am, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
> <seymour-sha...@excite.com> wrote in message
> --www.fspazone.orgwww.virginiapinball.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pin Wiz Jr.
for everyone else :-)
Although the Blonder collection isn't nearly as massive as John Reuter's, it
is extremely unlikely that we would have to turn anyone away. We have enough
games for 80 people, and enough space (we've had parties with numbers of
50+). At a 9 game location, however, it is extremely likely that once we are
out of the summer months, we would have to kick people out. As long as there
are 10 games, it shouldn't be a problem at all.
As for your old league vs. the FMPT, I think it would have been a lot easier
to get promotion in the mid-90's, when pinball was doing well. Now, I'm sure
Newsom (the op) is NOT putting games on location for profit. You're just not
going to make money from it. However, I have been thinking about promotion
and there is a good pizza place within a block or two of John's Place that
would be good. It's a family-owned business, so it would be a lot more
likely for a promotion than a corporate joint like Pizza Hut or Domino's.
Thanks for the advice. Sometimes I get so caught up in the WPPR points (my
goal is to get to the top 100 by the end of next year) that I forget that
it's all about promoting competitive pinball.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.fspazone.org
www.virginiapinball.org
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185559626....@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Josh Sharpe
points!" when in the end it's the points themselves that are the least
important aspect of what we're trying to do. It's just a tool in the
toolbox :-)
As for getting promotion in the mid-90's . . . wish I could have taken
advantage of that more. I was able to enjoy some free stuff from
Williams in 1998 and 1999, but since then I probably had to deal with
about the same situation you are in now. I was in Jr. High/ High
School during the Williams heyday.
>From personal experience I definitely recommend avoiding the big time
corporate places in favor of the local mom and pop shops. Sandwich
places, pizza joints, smaller restaurants and bars, hair cut places,
coffee houses, grocery stores, you name it . . . it's amazing the kind
of stuff companies are willing to give away in return for a month's
worth of advertising on all the pins and the right to be the "sponsor"
of a certain month of competition.
Newsom shouldn't sell the ability for the games to make money short. I
saw first hand what these types of promotional pushes does for the
coin box, and Lloyd is proof enough that if maintained properly there
is still plenty of ability for pinball games to earn.
Best of luck, and if you're half as energetic with your promotional
pushes as you are following the WPPR points themselves, you're gonna
do great!
-Josh
Cayle George
perhaps C divisions of PAPA.
>From my experience qualifying in those divisions at PAPA is much more
of a challenge than earning points at some of the smaller more local
tournaments around the country wich give out WPPR points.
Just a thought :)
-cAyle
Pin Wiz Jr.
group, is this: John's Place is a restaurant. They have food. In other
words, they would never allow flyers for another restaurant in their
establishment. What things could I do for a local, non-corporate pizza place
to get them to let me put up a few flyers at their place and maybe have them
donate a medium pizza for the winner? It's not so easy when the location
you're promoting from is a restaurant itself.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.fspazone.org
www.virginiapinball.org
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185570203....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Pin Wiz Jr.
player could decide they'd rather take a free 25 than fight hard for 8.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.fspazone.org
www.virginiapinball.org
"Cayle George" <cayle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185570721....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Cayle George
But getting 1 point for qualifying in a small even like Oak harbour in
WA, and 0 points for PAPA B division is a Joke in my opinion. (can
you tell im bitter? :) )
If qualifying in the lower divisions at papa was a point or two, and
winning in those divisions was a few more, I dont see sandbagging
occurring.
Also, I think the allure of money weighs much more on sandbagging than
WPPR points.
-cAyle
On Jul 27, 2:14 pm, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
> Problem with that is the sandbaggers. Completely unavoidable. Some top
> player could decide they'd rather take a free 25 than fight hard for 8.
>
> -Ethan Blonder
> --www.fspazone.orgwww.virginiapinball.org
>
> "Cayle George" <caylegeo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > --www.fspazone.orgwww.virginiapinball.org-Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Josh Sharpe
in the past, and I know the challenge that lies ahead for those
players.
Unfortunately we haven't been able to find a fair way to incorporate
points for those divisions, in terms of remaining fair to those
players that are forced to play in the A division.
Right now qualifying in A earns 8 points. Is qualifying in A harder
than winning B? Is winning in C harder than qualifying in B? Is
finishing 15th place in B equal to finishing in 6th place in C? What
levels are of equal prowess when you look across multiple divisions?
We've heard alot of, "well, just make B division 50% of A, and C
division 50% of B". I really wish it was that easy, but the impact
that would cause in terms of players in B and C earning more points
than most A players, while avoiding those players as competition
altogether doesn't make sense for us at this point. In addition, you
get into the discussion about other tournaments like P3 that have
multiple divisions, or the inclusion of women's and junior's
divisions. If you're giving points for C, should Women be getting
points for their own skill division at a major tournament like Expo?
In the end, our black and white stance on only allowing true "Open"
events makes this a much easier decision for us, instead of trying to
answer all those above questions, because frankly, we just don't know
what the right answer is.
With that said, if you or anyone has a point structure that you think
would be fair, our committee is always discussing these things, and we
would love to hear about it. Our thought is that you couldn't give out
much more than simple participation points for those players that
choose to play in a non-Open division, but who knows. A year ago we
weren't giving out points to anyone that didn't qualify, and now
everyone that plays in the Open division gets points. We already have
some changes planned for 2008, but aren't even close to getting things
right.
If the challenge isn't as great as these local events, get out there
and grab some points there! After all, as I've pointed out in much of
this thread, the WPPR system is far less about the points as it is
trying to get you and other players to attend these local events (as
well as the bigger ones of course).
thanks,
Josh
Josh Sharpe
I'm assuming that John's Place gets a cut from the earnings of the
games. I had a similar situation where I ran my events at school, and
my best way to approach the owner of the location was to explain how
something like a large pizza (we'll say valued at $16.99 to the end
used) really only costs the pizza place a couple of bucks in
ingredients. If you can explain to them that the additional money into
the coinbox will more than cover their cost of that pizza, along with
the goodwill of getting potential new customers (players) to that
particular location, hopefully they will see that it isn't a large
investment for them to really add alot of value for you.
Perhaps they become the charter sponsor of the Fairfax Monthly Pinball
Tournament (include ads on your website, maybe even a coupon that
players could print out on your website for the tournament. Maybe it's
10% off your bill coupon, or buy a pizza/get a pizza free. Whatever it
may be, there is tons of cross promotion available that would be
little to no investment on their part, but would be beneficial to
everyone involved.
Worst comes to worst, since you're only 13? 14? 15? (sorry I forget
how old - but not really because you thought Zach and I were twins).
Anyway . . .you can always tell them you are doing a school project on
marketing, and the ability to raise revenues for a product based on
limited promotions. Maybe it's an honors class ;-)
Good luck!
Josh
Pin Wiz Jr.
be good. I still don't think I'll be able to convince John (of John's Place)
to let me put anything from the pizza place up at his place, or even bring
in a pizza. I can't find the hours of the pizza place on the site, but if
it's open until 11, then people could pick it up right after the tournament.
I'm 14 now, and I'll never forget now that you two are just brothers :-)
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.fspazone.org
www.virginiapinball.org
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185573758.1...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Brian Smith
When is a private venue a private venue?
So New England has a tournament at a home, but since it is a large
collection it is okay. What is a large enough collection?
At the P3, our goal is promote the sport of competitive pinball. What
better way is there then to host tournaments across the state and
promote them as best as possible.
Unfortunately there are not many public venues anymore. If you want
to play "working" games anymore, there are few places that would
support a tournament larger then 12 players! The largest local
public venue I know of has 5 pins. NONE of them fully work correctly
and two of them have critical malfunctions. Even then it could
support a max of 12 players without large lines or backups.
We have many private "homes" with large fully working collections of
newer games.
Having a tournament that is OPEN to the public, I fail to see how
this is any different. To be honest with you with our leagues and
tournaments, we barely ever have seen walk-in participants that have
seen the advertisements at the location. Almost all of our players
have come from our on-line and magazine advertisements and of course
word of mouth.
I too wish the state of pinball in arcades hasn't come to this, but it
seems it is here to stay.
Brian Smith
P3Tournament
Koz Pinlicious
will have players sandbagging. everyone knows who these players are,
but no-one says anything. well, no use crying over spilt milk, but i
can promise you i am done watcing this BULLSHIT happen. these clowns
who SANDBAG are only HURTING pinball and doing NOTHING TO HELP it.
they are only helping themselves to something that isn't theirs. i
blame the tournament organizers as much as i blame the players. i
blame myself the most for not speaking up more in the past, but i was
kinda new to the tournament scene just a year ago. i could go on about
this for days, but i gotta get back to work. STOP SANDBAGGING ALL YOU
SANDBAGGERS OUT THERE!!!
Pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
On Jul 27, 5:14 pm, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
> Problem with that is the sandbaggers. Completely unavoidable. Some top
> player could decide they'd rather take a free 25 than fight hard for 8.
>
> -Ethan Blonder
> --www.fspazone.orgwww.virginiapinball.org
>
> "Cayle George" <caylegeo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > --www.fspazone.orgwww.virginiapinball.org-Hide quoted text -
Josh Sharpe
pretty much any place on the planet is someone's private venue. Kevin
can choose not to let someone into PAPA, Lloyd can choose not to let
someone into his arcade, Pacak can choose not to let someone into
Expo.
For us calling something a "private venue" usually boils down to it
occurring at someone's home, basement, place they sleep. It usually
involves receiving some sort of invitation to attend, or
acknowledgement to the host that you are coming. Would you let some
shady character who just knocked on your door and said, "I saw the
sign down the road for a pinball tournament . . .can I come in? You
sure have alot of nice stuff here . . ." ;-)
In terms of allowing points, it is simply something our committee
looks at subjectively at this point. New England is at a home, yes.
That immediately puts it in the NO WPPR POINTS ALLOWED ZONE. We talked
about it at length, and in our discussion, we took into account the
fact that it was a one time event. We looked at the active promotion
they've done, the fact he has over 100 games, the prize package of the
event which actually makes it one of the larger tournaments in the US
to play at. The tournament is a full weekend, rather than just a
random weeknight. We also gauged the out of town attendance, to see if
the event was actually pulling any non-locals into the mix. The fact
that there are people traveling to the event from out of state, at
least 3 top 20 players will be there, makes the event alot more like a
"public venue" event in our eyes. Hopefully that makes some sense.
What is a large enough private collection? It really all depends on
the other factors. 50 games? 60 games? 80 games? We've chosen not to
make a general rule about it, but rather deal with it on a case by
case basis, dealing with the other factors that go into it.
Let's see what happens with your monthly events, and we can always
circle the wagons and discuss the inclusion of it at a later time.
Don't get me wrong Brian, what you do with P3 is unbelievable, and I'm
not trying to stop you from hosting these events. The fact that points
aren't available for these house gatherings shouldn't stop you from
doing it, and shouldn't impact the ability for you to promote
competitive pinball.
I understand the frustration on location pinball, and I guess my fire
and determination has always been to do everything possible to work
with the operators directly. I've had such positive experiences, it's
just a hell of a lot of work to get those operators to buy into it.
I'm not willing to give up the fight on competitive pinball, although
I agree with you 100%, it is a rough scene out there.
-Josh
pinballmike217
step to building an annual New England based tournament. There is a
ton of interest in pinball around here but it costs big bucks to rent
space and do it right. The Boston Pinball Association has almost 150
members and we are just trying to get on the map. If this event does
well more people will jump on board next year. This is almost a solo
effort on Johns part and he deserves huge credit. You can't expect one
guy to move 50 pins out of his house and rent commercial space to
accomodate the masses. He is doing the best he can with what he has.
John should be commended for making an effort and trying to promote
pinball. The rest of you should respect this and help if you can.
Mike
Outlane Drain Train
> No problem Ethan, it is easy to get caught up in the "I want some
> points!" when in the end it's the points themselves that are the least
> important aspect of what we're trying to do. It's just a tool in the
> toolbox :-)
>
> As for getting promotion in the mid-90's . . . wish I could have taken
> advantage of that more. I was able to enjoy some free stuff from
> Williams in 1998 and 1999, but since then I probably had to deal with
> about the same situation you are in now. I was in Jr. High/ High
> School during the Williams heyday.
>
> >From personal experience I definitely recommend avoiding the big time
>
> corporate places in favor of the local mom and pop shops. Sandwich
> places, pizza joints, smaller restaurants and bars, hair cut places,
> coffee houses, grocery stores, you name it . . . it's amazing the kind
> of stuff companies are willing to give away in return for a month's
> worth of advertising on all the pins and the right to be the "sponsor"
> of a certain month of competition.
>
I don't.
I
> saw first hand what these types of promotional pushes does for the
> coin box, and Lloyd is proof enough that if maintained properly there
> is still plenty of ability for pinball games to earn.
That's not the impression that I get from LTG's posts.
John's Place is not nearly as good a location as a college campus. It
is a neighborhood bar in a strip mall - it does not get a lot of foot
traffic. But many people who would not ever go to John's if it did
not have pinball, do go to John's and play pinball there regularly.
John's Place has as many pins there as it does largely because of FSPA
members selflessly running and promoting the league and maintaining
the games (Thanks Paul, Scott, FSPA).
Really, the electrical output at John's is not equipped to handle 11
games (especially in the summer with the air conditioning on), that's
why I intended to move some.
Ethan - get me a petition with 20 signatures on it saying that they
will be at the FMPT and you can have 10 pins there.
Just kidding, I'll keep 10 there.
Chris
>
> Best of luck, and if you're half as energetic with your promotional
> pushes as you are following the WPPR points themselves, you're gonna
> do great!
>
> -Josh
>
> On Jul 27, 3:22 pm, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As for your old league vs. the FMPT, I think it would have been a lot easier
> > to get promotion in the mid-90's, when pinball was doing well. Now, I'm sure
> >Newsom(the op) is NOT putting games on location for profit. You're just not
> > going to make money from it. However, I have been thinking about promotion
> > and there is a good pizza place within a block or two of John's Place that
> > would be good. It's a family-owned business, so it would be a lot more
> > likely for a promotion than a corporate joint like Pizza Hut or Domino's.
>
> > Thanks for the advice. Sometimes I get so caught up in the WPPR points (my
> > goal is to get to the top 100 by the end of next year) that I forget that
> > it's all about promoting competitive pinball.
>
> > -Ethan Blonder
Outlane Drain Train
> Believe me Cayle, I've played in C division and B division at PAPA's
> in the past, and I know the challenge that lies ahead for those
> players.
>
> Unfortunately we haven't been able to find a fair way to incorporate
> points for those divisions, in terms of remaining fair to those
> players that are forced to play in the A division.
>
> Right now qualifying in A earns 8 points. Is qualifying in A harder
> than winning B? Is winning in C harder than qualifying in B? Is
> finishing 15th place in B equal to finishing in 6th place in C? What
> levels are of equal prowess when you look across multiple divisions?
> We've heard alot of, "well, just make B division 50% of A, and C
> division 50% of B". I really wish it was that easy, but the impact
> that would cause in terms of players in B and C earning more points
> than most A players, while avoiding those players as competition
> altogether doesn't make sense for us at this point. In addition, you
> get into the discussion about other tournaments like P3 that have
> multiple divisions, or the inclusion of women's and junior's
> divisions. If you're giving points for C, should Women be getting
> points for their own skill division at a major tournament like Expo?
>
> In the end, our black and white stance on only allowing true "Open"
> events
::cough:: Swedish Pinball Championships
Chris
> > -cAyle- Hide quoted text -
Pin Wiz Jr.
news:1186620563.2...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm with Chris here. Josh, you probably envision John's as a pretty nice
place. It's just not. All the people from league who get a couple (or more)
drinks help keep the place in business.
> John's Place has as many pins there as it does largely because of FSPA
> members selflessly running and promoting the league and maintaining
> the games (Thanks Paul, Scott, FSPA).
>
> Really, the electrical output at John's is not equipped to handle 11
> games (especially in the summer with the air conditioning on), that's
> why I intended to move some.
>
> Ethan - get me a petition with 20 signatures on it saying that they
> will be at the FMPT and you can have 10 pins there.
> Just kidding, I'll keep 10 there.
Thanks a lot. 10 vs 9 makes a world of a difference. Just don't take
Mousin'. It's my best game now :-)
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
Josh Sharpe
of location it is. Glad to see you guys are doing the best you can
with it. Keep it up!
-Josh
Bowen Kerins
> until you get people who run tournaments that CARE about pinball, you
> will have players sandbagging. everyone knows who these players are,
> but no-one says anything. well, no use crying over spilt milk, but i
> can promise you i am done watcing this BULLSHIT happen. these clowns
> who SANDBAG are only HURTING pinball and doing NOTHING TO HELP it.
> they are only helping themselves to something that isn't theirs. i
> blame the tournament organizers as much as i blame the players. i
> blame myself the most for not speaking up more in the past, but i was
> kinda new to the tournament scene just a year ago. i could go on about
> this for days, but i gotta get back to work. STOP SANDBAGGING ALL YOU
> SANDBAGGERS OUT THERE!!!
Please don't generalize to every tournament. Basically you just said
that nobody who runs a pinball tournament cares about pinball, and I
hope you can clarify your comments.
Also, if you have specific suggestions on how to properly identify
sandbaggers and what to do about them, we'd love to hear them.
Since this thread is about the New England Pinball Championship, I'll
point out that this tournament did not have any divisions. Players'
performance in the first half of the tournament determine whether they
would continue to the A or B side, and the A side had significantly
more prize money. Players seemed to enjoy this equal footing, and the
match-play system meant that everyone, good or bad, played the same
number of matches through the day.
Please -- speak up more -- but be sure to offer concrete suggestions
about how better to run tournaments. I have tried, with mixed but
generally positive results, to create tournament formats that
discourage or eliminate the advantages players might get by
sandbagging.
My apologies for coming late to the conversation here as well.
- Bowen
Pin Wiz Jr.
news:1186628172.3...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I've got to thank whoever came up with that NE Pinball Championship format
(was it you Bowen?), because I think that opened the doors for a new style
of tournament. The FMPT (www.virginiapinball.org) is using a similar system,
except there are 5 'sides,' but they are called divisions. Players play
their way into the divisions through match play. The prizes are set so that
there is no point to sandbagging all the way to the bottom division because
winning the 5th, or Experienced, division would get you your money ($10
entry fee + coin drop) back, whereas winning the 1st, or Premier, division,
would get you $30-$50, depending on how many people show up.
Although good players enjoy them, I don't think the regular PAPA-style
tournament works for the regular player. Guys sit at P3 and spend and spend
and spend, whereas someone who walks in from the street will come in, do one
entry, realize he has no chance, and walk away. I really don't think
tournaments that allow players to spend are the answer.
The question has to be asked, who are we trying to get into pinball? The top
players are going to come for WPPRs anyway, so shouldn't we be trying to
give the average and mediocre players a chance to compete and win?
For example, at the Fairfax Monthly Pinball Tournament (not a plug, just a
good example), players play a few rounds of match play, and are split into
divisions based on points they earned in their matches (max 8, min 0). They
get grouped into up to 5 divisions (min. 15 players) and play rounds within
those divisions to determine the top 2, who play a final game. Also, game
choice and play order are completely random in the first round. Why do
better players need any more advantage than they already have? In the
semifinals (early divisional rounds), play order is determined by who had
more points in the prelims (opening matches), but game choice is still
random, picked by ping pong balls out of a bag. The final match is the only
match with game choice, which goes to the person who had the most points in
their division. It all takes place in a little over 2 hours.
Last tournament (the 2nd one), there were 12 people. The premier division
was myself, Paul McGlone, and Scott Sidley. The Professional (2nd) division
was a regular league player competing against a regular at the bar who had
just started playing pinball, and a 13 year old girl who was the daughter of
a league player. She whooped some serious ass on a Strikes 'n' Spares game,
and got in. Those two less experienced players had a shot at 0.5 WPPRs,
which is really exciting for them. The girl made the final and lost, but
that's the kind of thing that gets people coming back. If right off the bat,
you're already playing B Division, then you have no chance. A lot of these
people at the tournament were people that played B Division at the Fairfax
Pinball Open, so it is exciting for them to have a chance at WPPRs without
having to worry about needing to spend all kinds of money.
Basically, if you really want to help pinball and get non-competitive
players interested, the regular tournament style has to be abandoned. It's
not helping get pinball anywhere. I really think it's time for a change,
because tournament players will always come, but there's no growing base
when the same players go to every tournament. We need to try to design
tournaments so that everyone can compete, win, and have fun.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
Outlane Drain Train
business (unless John sells it). There is a small group of loyal
customers who frequent John's. Pinball has brought John new regular
customers and indeed some of the most regular of these new "pinball
customers" are not even in the league. Well, John's has always had
pinball, I guess I should say pinball that works a little better than
what he had five years ago.
But yeah, John's Place would not be the place to go when trying to
impress a date.....
Chris
> > drinks help keep the place in business.- Hide quoted text -
Pin Wiz Jr.
> John's Place has been around for decades and is not about to go out of
> business (unless John sells it). There is a small group of loyal
> customers who frequent John's. Pinball has brought John new regular
> customers and indeed some of the most regular of these new "pinball
> customers" are not even in the league. Well, John's has always had
> pinball, I guess I should say pinball that works a little better than
> what he had five years ago.
>
> But yeah, John's Place would not be the place to go when trying to
> impress a date.....
Crap, I'm taking a girl there for a Saturday night party! Thought I was
gonna get laid, too... :-)
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
Bowen Kerins
> (was it you Bowen?), because I think that opened the doors for a new style
> of tournament. The FMPT (www.virginiapinball.org) is using a similar system,
> except there are 5 'sides,' but they are called divisions. Players play
> their way into the divisions through match play. The prizes are set so that
> there is no point to sandbagging all the way to the bottom division because
> winning the 5th, or Experienced, division would get you your money ($10
> entry fee + coin drop) back, whereas winning the 1st, or Premier, division,
> would get you $30-$50, depending on how many people show up.
This sounds interesting. John Reuter (BallyMan on this group) is as
much to thank for it, since he insisted on finding a format that was
fair and fun to as many people as possible. I honestly think that if
you went to the NE Pinball Championship and had never played pinball
before, you'd have had an awesome time and learned a lot from
everyone.
> Although good players enjoy them, I don't think the regular PAPA-style
> tournament works for the regular player. Guys sit at P3 and spend and spend
> and spend, whereas someone who walks in from the street will come in, do one
> entry, realize he has no chance, and walk away. I really don't think
> tournaments that allow players to spend are the answer.
One issue is that as tournaments grow in size, it becomes impossible
(or very difficult at least) to have a true match-play event.
Qualifying is the only other system that's possible, I believe.
A midsize event like P3 or California Extreme also needs qualifying,
since it isn't just a tournament. If Extreme were purely match-play,
there would need to be so many matches that people wouldn't really be
able to see the rest of the show. By having qualifying and a set
finals time, players can come and go as they please for the majority
of the event, which is pretty important.
So, how do you resolve this to give the "player from the street" a fun
experience? One way to do it might be to have match-play "flights"
like satellites to a poker tournament. 16 players sign up, okay go,
top 2 or 4 players advance to the finals. You'd still have people who
might try to buy their way in, but it's a bit different and they still
have to go through some opponents. Honestly I've never tried such a
tournament (just thought of this, really) but it might be good.
What other ways are there to give these players a fun time? One is to
set aside an alternate division -- at this year's Extreme everyone
plays in the same division, but casual players' scores are also
counted in a special division with an additional playoff. It will be
interesting to see if any of these players -also- qualify in the main
tournament. We're also giving any pre-registered player 1 free or
discounted entry to try and get some more "walk-through" crowd.
> The question has to be asked, who are we trying to get into pinball? The top
> players are going to come for WPPRs anyway, so shouldn't we be trying to
> give the average and mediocre players a chance to compete and win?
You know it. And I think PAPA has done a pretty decent job of this
given the circumstances. Still there are gaps - a new player at PAPA
is being fed to C Division wolves (who are very good players). But if
you tell a high-C player to move up, now they're getting fed to the B
Division wolves. No matter how many divisions there are, this would
happen.
> For example, at the Fairfax Monthly Pinball Tournament (not a plug, just a
> good example), players play a few rounds of match play, and are split into
> divisions based on points they earned in their matches (max 8, min 0). They
> get grouped into up to 5 divisions (min. 15 players) and play rounds within
> those divisions to determine the top 2, who play a final game.
What are you expecting 75 players to turn out for this? :) Feels a
little strange to have 3 players per division, but okay!
> If right off the bat,
> you're already playing B Division, then you have no chance.
I'm not really sure what you meant by this. If you meant no chance at
website points, I think that not everyone is as into that as some :)
It does sound like it was a fun experience, though. There are other
ways to give players credit for matches without forcing them to play
in an open division; WPPR's intent with the rankings is toward the top
50 / 100, in my opinion, and not 1036th. Why not give everyone who
plays in a tournament 0.01 WPPRs? Their name goes on the site, and
there would be absolutely no effect on the overall rankings.
> Basically, if you really want to help pinball and get non-competitive
> players interested, the regular tournament style has to be abandoned. It's
> not helping get pinball anywhere. I really think it's time for a change,
> because tournament players will always come, but there's no growing base
> when the same players go to every tournament. We need to try to design
> tournaments so that everyone can compete, win, and have fun.
How to do this on a large scale like PAPA is the real issue, I think.
It would be pretty difficult to run the NE Pinball Championship format
with 100 players, let alone 400. Difficult, but not impossible. With
a facility like PAPA it could actually be done.
There are other issues, of course. What about prize money? PAPA
needs a big enough prize to draw players from around the globe, I
feel. And I might be wrong on that. But with 400 players, the
average player needs to pour in $90 to make the prize pool for PAPA
10. I don't think it would be reasonable to ask every player to give
that much as an entry fee. Still, though, many players end up paying
more than that in qualifying entries (some, much more). So maybe $90
for a three-day match-play tournament would be fair? Would it be fair
and fun, even for a player walking in off the street?
Plenty to think about, of course. Tournaments need to strike a
balance between player convenience, maximum use of time and machines,
and friendliness to all player ability levels. It ain't easy.
Good to know that some of the people who run tournaments care about
pinball!
- Bowen
Pin Wiz Jr.
>> I've got to thank whoever came up with that NE Pinball Championship
>> format
>> (was it you Bowen?), because I think that opened the doors for a new
>> style
>> of tournament. The FMPT (www.virginiapinball.org) is using a similar
>> system,
>> except there are 5 'sides,' but they are called divisions. Players play
>> their way into the divisions through match play. The prizes are set so
>> that
>> there is no point to sandbagging all the way to the bottom division
>> because
>> winning the 5th, or Experienced, division would get you your money ($10
>> entry fee + coin drop) back, whereas winning the 1st, or Premier,
>> division,
>> would get you $30-$50, depending on how many people show up.
>
> This sounds interesting. John Reuter (BallyMan on this group) is as
> much to thank for it, since he insisted on finding a format that was
> fair and fun to as many people as possible. I honestly think that if
> you went to the NE Pinball Championship and had never played pinball
> before, you'd have had an awesome time and learned a lot from
> everyone.
I agree. That's the kind of tournament that has a new player walking out
going, 'I really enjoyed that because I got to play the whole way through.'
>> Although good players enjoy them, I don't think the regular PAPA-style
>> tournament works for the regular player. Guys sit at P3 and spend and
>> spend
>> and spend, whereas someone who walks in from the street will come in, do
>> one
>> entry, realize he has no chance, and walk away. I really don't think
>> tournaments that allow players to spend are the answer.
>
> One issue is that as tournaments grow in size, it becomes impossible
> (or very difficult at least) to have a true match-play event.
> Qualifying is the only other system that's possible, I believe.
Well not everybody has to play everybody. If you spent 5 hours of people
playing other people randomly with FSPA style points (or my modified
version), we'd get a pretty good idea of where you'd belong division-wise.
> A midsize event like P3 or California Extreme also needs qualifying,
> since it isn't just a tournament. If Extreme were purely match-play,
> there would need to be so many matches that people wouldn't really be
> able to see the rest of the show. By having qualifying and a set
> finals time, players can come and go as they please for the majority
> of the event, which is pretty important.
I certainly don't mind having some tournaments like that, but it seems like
wherever I go, that's the basic format, with a few minor twists. I know how
frustrating it is to go to a tournament and have no chance before it even
starts.
> So, how do you resolve this to give the "player from the street" a fun
> experience? One way to do it might be to have match-play "flights"
> like satellites to a poker tournament. 16 players sign up, okay go,
> top 2 or 4 players advance to the finals. You'd still have people who
> might try to buy their way in, but it's a bit different and they still
> have to go through some opponents. Honestly I've never tried such a
> tournament (just thought of this, really) but it might be good.
Not sure I understand this one. Could you elaborate?
> What other ways are there to give these players a fun time? One is to
> set aside an alternate division -- at this year's Extreme everyone
> plays in the same division, but casual players' scores are also
> counted in a special division with an additional playoff. It will be
> interesting to see if any of these players -also- qualify in the main
> tournament. We're also giving any pre-registered player 1 free or
> discounted entry to try and get some more "walk-through" crowd.
I like that for a large event, where you don't find match play realistic.
However, I do think that part of what makes a tournament fun is when you get
to play a lot for a little. Qualifying gives very limited play for a high
price if you don't make the playoffs. How are you deciding who is 'casual?'
>> The question has to be asked, who are we trying to get into pinball? The
>> top
>> players are going to come for WPPRs anyway, so shouldn't we be trying to
>> give the average and mediocre players a chance to compete and win?
>
> You know it. And I think PAPA has done a pretty decent job of this
> given the circumstances. Still there are gaps - a new player at PAPA
> is being fed to C Division wolves (who are very good players). But if
> you tell a high-C player to move up, now they're getting fed to the B
> Division wolves. No matter how many divisions there are, this would
> happen.
PAPA shouldn't really be changed. It's so huge that you can't do something
that involves every single player there. Just doesn't work. However, there
are very few other tournaments that have near that many people (Expo comes
to mind).
>> For example, at the Fairfax Monthly Pinball Tournament (not a plug, just
>> a
>> good example), players play a few rounds of match play, and are split
>> into
>> divisions based on points they earned in their matches (max 8, min 0).
>> They
>> get grouped into up to 5 divisions (min. 15 players) and play rounds
>> within
>> those divisions to determine the top 2, who play a final game.
>
> What are you expecting 75 players to turn out for this? :) Feels a
> little strange to have 3 players per division, but okay!
It's a monthly, so I expect to eventually hit around 20-25 per tournament.
The reason 3 per division seems so weird is because it's different. They're
really like groups, but they are ranked. Every increment of 3 adds another
division, up to 5 divisons at 15, at which point players are added from the
bottom up. (16 players play in 3-3-3-3-4, 18 play in 3-3-4-4-4).
>> If right off the bat,
>> you're already playing B Division, then you have no chance.
>
> I'm not really sure what you meant by this. If you meant no chance at
> website points, I think that not everyone is as into that as some :)
> It does sound like it was a fun experience, though. There are other
> ways to give players credit for matches without forcing them to play
> in an open division; WPPR's intent with the rankings is toward the top
> 50 / 100, in my opinion, and not 1036th. Why not give everyone who
> plays in a tournament 0.01 WPPRs? Their name goes on the site, and
> there would be absolutely no effect on the overall rankings.
Not only the WPPRs, but the other rewards and prizes. I totally agree, and I
think the 0.25 participation points are fine, and I think a monthly
tournament participant should get 0.02 for playing or whatever. I know
plenty of locals who are desperate to just get on the list.
>> Basically, if you really want to help pinball and get non-competitive
>> players interested, the regular tournament style has to be abandoned.
>> It's
>> not helping get pinball anywhere. I really think it's time for a change,
>> because tournament players will always come, but there's no growing base
>> when the same players go to every tournament. We need to try to design
>> tournaments so that everyone can compete, win, and have fun.
>
> How to do this on a large scale like PAPA is the real issue, I think.
> It would be pretty difficult to run the NE Pinball Championship format
> with 100 players, let alone 400. Difficult, but not impossible. With
> a facility like PAPA it could actually be done.
>
> There are other issues, of course. What about prize money? PAPA
> needs a big enough prize to draw players from around the globe, I
> feel. And I might be wrong on that. But with 400 players, the
> average player needs to pour in $90 to make the prize pool for PAPA
> 10. I don't think it would be reasonable to ask every player to give
> that much as an entry fee. Still, though, many players end up paying
> more than that in qualifying entries (some, much more). So maybe $90
> for a three-day match-play tournament would be fair? Would it be fair
> and fun, even for a player walking in off the street?
The problem with the all-match play format is that prizes aren't that high
compared to a qualifying/playoffs tournament. However, it is more enjoyable
and everyone, in an FMPT style tournament, makes the playoffs and misses a
maximum of one game, the final match.
> Plenty to think about, of course. Tournaments need to strike a
> balance between player convenience, maximum use of time and machines,
> and friendliness to all player ability levels. It ain't easy.
I really think that friendliness to all player ability levels is the most
important thing in promoting competitive pinball. A regular player really
isn't that interested in format intricacies as much as getting to play a lot
for their money.
Also, I think some form of permanent recognition is VERY important to
everyone. Tournaments should always have plaques, trophies, or at least
certificates or something, because the ability to display my trophies is
very important to me. As pompous as that sounds, it's very true, and I think
most people feel the same way.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
Josh Sharpe
to everything else it would actually be 0.02 "website points" just for
participating. We'll throw it on the agenda for things to talk about
at our next IFPA meeting.
I don't see why we wouldn't include this on the list of changes for
2008.
-Josh
Sergio Johnson
>
> Plenty to think about, of course. Tournaments need to strike a
> balance between player convenience, maximum use of time and machines,
> and friendliness to all player ability levels. It ain't easy.
Nope. The main issue, as always, is how do you attract players. The most
reliable method is generally with cash. That almost requires you to go
with the "qualifying method" to get a decent prize pool unless you've
got a deep pockets sponsor. My personal philosophy is to try to keep
people playing as much as possible by making the cost per entry fairly
reasonable.
>
> Good to know that some of the people who run tournaments care about
> pinball!
Nah, I'm in it for the money and fame. ;)
Serg
Pin Wiz Jr.
news:8qxui.3575$9F4.878@trndny04...
> Bowen Kerins wrote:
>>
>> Plenty to think about, of course. Tournaments need to strike a
>> balance between player convenience, maximum use of time and machines,
>> and friendliness to all player ability levels. It ain't easy.
>
> Nope. The main issue, as always, is how do you attract players. The most
> reliable method is generally with cash. That almost requires you to go
> with the "qualifying method" to get a decent prize pool unless you've got
> a deep pockets sponsor. My personal philosophy is to try to keep people
> playing as much as possible by making the cost per entry fairly
> reasonable.
The qualifying method does get a larger prize pool, but the risk/reward is
about the same. One of the negatives of qualifying is that an OK player can
throw money at it all day, and eventually, they'll have a nice set of games
and get in, whereas a guy who maybe can't afford to play more than 2 or 3
entries can't make it in, even at the same skill level. I like the Pre-PAPA
Flipoff's $6 entries. Pretty cheap, and definitely makes you go, "One more
won't hurt."
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
Bowen Kerins
> playing other people randomly with FSPA style points (or my modified
> version), we'd get a pretty good idea of where you'd belong division-wise.
Three issues here: one is sandbagging, but there's really nothing that
can be done about this in such a situation I feel. Two is that a
"pretty good idea" may not feel good enough for some players. Three,
and perhaps most important, is that some players just don't want to
sit around and play for 5 hours straight. But sure, you can play
Swiss and at some point say, "Okay you're A, you're B, you're C".
That's what NE Pinball did, actually -- 9 matches, if you have a
winning record after that, you're A; losing record, you're B.
> I certainly don't mind having some tournaments like that, but it seems like
> wherever I go, that's the basic format, with a few minor twists. I know how
> frustrating it is to go to a tournament and have no chance before it even
> starts.
PLAY BETTER! I know how you feel from other sports. So, the
tournament has to give these "dead money" players a reason to still
want to be involved. At PAPA it's the spectacle of the whole thing.
At Pinbrawl it's team cameraderie. At Extreme, it's a second bonus
final round for casual players.
The trouble is, you can't make a match-play tournament without asking
players for a heavy time commitment. At events like Extreme and Expo,
you just can't ask for that commitment from enough players to make it
worthwhile. Pinbrawl works partially because it's the only game in
town that day.
> > So, how do you resolve this to give the "player from the street" a fun
> > experience? One way to do it might be to have match-play "flights"
> > like satellites to a poker tournament. 16 players sign up, okay go,
> > top 2 or 4 players advance to the finals. You'd still have people who
> > might try to buy their way in, but it's a bit different and they still
> > have to go through some opponents. Honestly I've never tried such a
> > tournament (just thought of this, really) but it might be good.
>
> Not sure I understand this one. Could you elaborate?
Sure. In a poker tournament 'satellite', when 10 players show up they
play a mini-tournament, just them. The winner earns a spot in the
main event. These 'satellites' can continue all day long -- whenever
10 players show up and sign up, off they go.
So, why not steal this idea for pinball tournaments? Have a rolling
signup sheet. When 8 players have signed up, off they go to play an
elimination tournament, just those 8. Whoever wins gets to play in
the finals. The rest of the players are back in the pool, and they
can pay to enter a new satellite.
One big trouble here, as would be the case in a poker tournament, is
that a player may not want to enter a satellite if they see a top
player has already signed up. So, top players, just wait until you
can sign in as the last name, and off you go. :)
> I like that for a large event, where you don't find match play realistic.
> However, I do think that part of what makes a tournament fun is when you get
> to play a lot for a little. Qualifying gives very limited play for a high
> price if you don't make the playoffs. How are you deciding who is 'casual?'
Good question, and the short answer is players who have never won a
cash prize at a pinball event. The long answer is that we judge a
player's ability by what they've done in the past, and decide if a
true novice player would have a chance against them. If not, you
can't be casual. You (Ethan) definitely wouldn't qualify as 'casual'.
> PAPA shouldn't really be changed. It's so huge that you can't do something
> that involves every single player there. Just doesn't work. However, there
> are very few other tournaments that have near that many people (Expo comes
> to mind).
Extreme typically has ~80 players, and many come and go since they
want to do the rest of the hall or the speakers or whatever. This was
one of the reasons we started the No Limit side event -- it's
guaranteed match play only! And you can play as long as you like
until you're either forced all in (which won't happen for maybe 4 or 5
games at least) or until you decide you want to play for it all.
> Not only the WPPRs, but the other rewards and prizes. I totally agree, and I
> think the 0.25 participation points are fine, and I think a monthly
> tournament participant should get 0.02 for playing or whatever. I know
> plenty of locals who are desperate to just get on the list.
People are desperate to get on the list? Josh get on it! These
people need their pity party points!
> The problem with the all-match play format is that prizes aren't that high
> compared to a qualifying/playoffs tournament. However, it is more enjoyable
> and everyone, in an FMPT style tournament, makes the playoffs and misses a
> maximum of one game, the final match.
At $40 per player times 40 players, New England Pinball Championship
paid out about as much in prizes as just about any event. With fewer
than that, you're right -- qualifying feeds the meter. But yeah,
match play is more fun. Tough balance.
> I really think that friendliness to all player ability levels is the most
> important thing in promoting competitive pinball. A regular player really
> isn't that interested in format intricacies as much as getting to play a lot
> for their money.
Amen to that. When we were doing BPA league nights some years ago, it
was all match-play and there were three prizes: 1st, 2nd, and "Lucky
Loser" (it wasn't called that), someone drawn at random -- and the
random prize is as much as 1st. The first night, a 10-year-old boy
won the prize...
> Also, I think some form of permanent recognition is VERY important to
> everyone. Tournaments should always have plaques, trophies, or at least
> certificates or something, because the ability to display my trophies is
> very important to me. As pompous as that sounds, it's very true, and I think
> most people feel the same way.
Not pompous at all, but who gets that recognition? Everyone, or just
the winner(s)? If it's just the winner then the casual player has no
hope of getting that reward. But at Extreme last year many casual / B
players said they'd rather have a trophy than a cash prize. Meanwhile
some A players said the opposite, they'd rather have a larger cash
prize than a trophy. Who knows, it's all good.
- Bowen
Pin Wiz Jr.
whole
group...
btw, I think that qualifying is not the same at every tournament,
even if
there is the same format. People who qualify at a tournament should
with 8
total qualifiers should get more points than players at a tournament
where
16 players qualify. Basically, say 'OK, every regular tournament is
given 16
(before TVA) qualifying points, and they are spread equally among
the
qualifiers. Also, I think Bowen should have gotten 2x the regular
qualifying
points at P3 since he qualified both days, and took 2 of the 8 spots.
-Ethan Blonder
www.virginiapinball.org
(read my other responses below)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ethan B" <maizea...@cox.net>
> To: "Bowen Kerins" <bke...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: WPPR question re: New England Pinball Championship
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bowen Kerins" <bke...@gmail.com>
>> Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 2:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: WPPR question re: New England Pinball Championship
>>
>>
>>>> Well not everybody has to play everybody. If you spent 5 hours of people
>>>> playing other people randomly with FSPA style points (or my modified
>>>> version), we'd get a pretty good idea of where you'd belong
>>>> division-wise.
>>>
>>> Three issues here: one is sandbagging, but there's really nothing that
>>> can be done about this in such a situation I feel. Two is that a
>>> "pretty good idea" may not feel good enough for some players. Three,
>>> and perhaps most important, is that some players just don't want to
>>> sit around and play for 5 hours straight. But sure, you can play
>>> Swiss and at some point say, "Okay you're A, you're B, you're C".
>>> That's what NE Pinball did, actually -- 9 matches, if you have a
>>> winning record after that, you're A; losing record, you're B.
You certainly don't have to play 5 hours, though. It might actually
be
better to play just 2 or 3 hours of matches because the less matches
played,
the more likely it is that a lesser player can make it into the top
division. I don't think the match play format works so well for a
show, but
for something that's just a tournament, it wouldn't be too hard,
because
the obligation would already be there. Then after the matches,
players could be
split into divsions with a minimum 8 players each (probably up to 4
or 5
divisions) and have them play matches to seed into brackets, if you
really
think it should end with a bracket. I just like having a single final
match
from the two (or three or four) top players in each division because
that
way, everyone gets to play about the same number of games.
>>>> I certainly don't mind having some tournaments like that, but it seems
>>>> like
>>>> wherever I go, that's the basic format, with a few minor twists. I know
>>>> how
>>>> frustrating it is to go to a tournament and have no chance before it
>>>> even
>>>> starts.
>>>
>>> PLAY BETTER! I know how you feel from other sports. So, the
>>> tournament has to give these "dead money" players a reason to still
>>> want to be involved. At PAPA it's the spectacle of the whole thing.
>>> At Pinbrawl it's team cameraderie. At Extreme, it's a second bonus
>>> final round for casual players.
Exactly. A standard tournament gives a novice no reason to play.
>>> The trouble is, you can't make a match-play tournament without asking
>>> players for a heavy time commitment. At events like Extreme and Expo,
>>> you just can't ask for that commitment from enough players to make it
>>> worthwhile. Pinbrawl works partially because it's the only game in
>>> town that day.
Yeah, it can really only be pulled off in a tournament-only event, no
vendors, banquets, seminars, etc.
>>>> > So, how do you resolve this to give the "player from the street" a fun
>>>> > experience? One way to do it might be to have match-play "flights"
>>>> > like satellites to a poker tournament. 16 players sign up, okay go,
>>>> > top 2 or 4 players advance to the finals. You'd still have people who
>>>> > might try to buy their way in, but it's a bit different and they still
>>>> > have to go through some opponents. Honestly I've never tried such a
>>>> > tournament (just thought of this, really) but it might be good.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure I understand this one. Could you elaborate?
>>>
>>> Sure. In a poker tournament 'satellite', when 10 players show up they
>>> play a mini-tournament, just them. The winner earns a spot in the
>>> main event. These 'satellites' can continue all day long -- whenever
>>> 10 players show up and sign up, off they go.
>>>
>>> So, why not steal this idea for pinball tournaments? Have a rolling
>>> signup sheet. When 8 players have signed up, off they go to play an
>>> elimination tournament, just those 8. Whoever wins gets to play in
>>> the finals. The rest of the players are back in the pool, and they
>>> can pay to enter a new satellite.
That could be pretty cool, although it still has players paying their
way
in.
>>> One big trouble here, as would be the case in a poker tournament, is
>>> that a player may not want to enter a satellite if they see a top
>>> player has already signed up. So, top players, just wait until you
>>> can sign in as the last name, and off you go. :)
True. I wouldn't sign up with you, Trent, Chris, Belsito, Elwin, Koz,
and
Elwin. Have them put their entry in a hat, and once there are eight,
play
it. That way, the only way to know who you're signing up against is
to
stand
at the table the whole time.
>>>> I like that for a large event, where you don't find match play
>>>> realistic.
>>>> However, I do think that part of what makes a tournament fun is when you
>>>> get
>>>> to play a lot for a little. Qualifying gives very limited play for a
>>>> high
>>>> price if you don't make the playoffs. How are you deciding who is
>>>> 'casual?'
>>>
>>> Good question, and the short answer is players who have never won a
>>> cash prize at a pinball event. The long answer is that we judge a
>>> player's ability by what they've done in the past, and decide if a
>>> true novice player would have a chance against them. If not, you
>>> can't be casual. You (Ethan) definitely wouldn't qualify as 'casual'.
I don't think of myself as casual anymore :-) It's really hard to
describe,
but I think no past cash prizes is good, although so far, 64% of FMPT
players, some of whom who would play beginners division anywhere,
have
earned cash prizes.
Right, but a novice doesn't really want to shell out $40 or $50. I'd
bet
the
main tournament was mostly regular BPA pinball people.
>>>> I really think that friendliness to all player ability levels is the
>>>> most
>>>> important thing in promoting competitive pinball. A regular player
>>>> really
>>>> isn't that interested in format intricacies as much as getting to play a
>>>> lot
>>>> for their money.
>>>
>>> Amen to that. When we were doing BPA league nights some years ago, it
>>> was all match-play and there were three prizes: 1st, 2nd, and "Lucky
>>> Loser" (it wasn't called that), someone drawn at random -- and the
>>> random prize is as much as 1st. The first night, a 10-year-old boy
>>> won the prize...
I'm going to start doing the raffle, because people might go, hey at
least I
could win a translite, or whatever.
>>>> Also, I think some form of permanent recognition is VERY important to
>>>> everyone. Tournaments should always have plaques, trophies, or at least
>>>> certificates or something, because the ability to display my trophies is
>>>> very important to me. As pompous as that sounds, it's very true, and I
>>>> think
>>>> most people feel the same way.
>>>
>>> Not pompous at all, but who gets that recognition? Everyone, or just
>>> the winner(s)? If it's just the winner then the casual player has no
>>> hope of getting that reward. But at Extreme last year many casual / B
>>> players said they'd rather have a trophy than a cash prize. Meanwhile
>>> some A players said the opposite, they'd rather have a larger cash
>>> prize than a trophy. Who knows, it's all good.
Right now, as long as there's some form of recognition, I'm OK with it
being
crappy. I do certainly like cash prizes, but when I talk to the lower
players, they all want trophies, and again, who are the people we
should
try to get to come to tournaments?
-Ethan Blonder
www.virginiapinball.org
>>> - Bowen
>>>
>>
>
Bowen Kerins
> btw, I think that qualifying is not the same at every tournament, even if
> there is the same format. People who qualify at a tournament should with 8
> total qualifiers should get more points than players at a tournament where
> 16 players qualify.
I don't agree with this only because the field can vary so severely.
It's really hard to make top 16 at PAPA, but it's not hard to make top
8 at... oh, say, the Houston Area Arcade Group tournament. (No
offense intended!)
> Also, I think Bowen should have gotten 2x the regular qualifying
> points at P3 since he qualified both days, and took 2 of the 8 spots.
I did earn double. 2 x 0 = 0. No points for qualifying for the
finals when you make it to a top-4 position.
> Yeah, it can really only be pulled off in a tournament-only event, no
> vendors, banquets, seminars, etc.
Well, there are still opportunities to get match-play action, just
can't do the entire tournament that way. Maybe someday I'll get the
guts to do the "poker satellite" style qualifying for some event.
> True. I wouldn't sign up with you, Trent, Chris, Belsito, Elwin, Koz, and
> Elwin. Have them put their entry in a hat, and once there are eight, play
> it. That way, the only way to know who you're signing up against is to stand
> at the table the whole time.
Or, look around and say "Hm, why are these other people all standing
here waiting for one more name?" In poker tournaments, one way around
this is a "super satellite" with multiple winners. That way, even if
you see some big names, you may not have to worry about them.
> Right, but a novice doesn't really want to shell out $40 or $50. I'd bet the
> main tournament was mostly regular BPA pinball people.
Why not? The $40 for NE Pinball was for an entire weekend of play,
plus a T-shirt. If I wanted to learn to play better pinball there's
not much better deal than that. Heck a new player can probably play
enough pinball that weekend to make it cheaper than 50 cents a game.
Good deal!
- Bowen
Pin Wiz Jr.
> On Aug 9, 5:58 pm, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> btw, I think that qualifying is not the same at every tournament, even
>> if
>> there is the same format. People who qualify at a tournament should with
>> 8
>> total qualifiers should get more points than players at a tournament
>> where
>> 16 players qualify.
>
> I don't agree with this only because the field can vary so severely.
> It's really hard to make top 16 at PAPA, but it's not hard to make top
> 8 at... oh, say, the Houston Area Arcade Group tournament. (No
> offense intended!)
Well PAPA is a different story, but P3 with just 5 Saturday qualifiers (8
total) shut out a lot of really good players that would have made it if it
were 6 on Friday and 10 on Saturday.
>> Also, I think Bowen should have gotten 2x the regular qualifying
>> points at P3 since he qualified both days, and took 2 of the 8 spots.
>
> I did earn double. 2 x 0 = 0. No points for qualifying for the
> finals when you make it to a top-4 position.
I doubt you would have gotten the extra points for qualifying both days if
you didn't make the final 4.
>> Yeah, it can really only be pulled off in a tournament-only event, no
>> vendors, banquets, seminars, etc.
>
> Well, there are still opportunities to get match-play action, just
> can't do the entire tournament that way. Maybe someday I'll get the
> guts to do the "poker satellite" style qualifying for some event.
I think the main reason I like match play so much is for less experienced
players. At a regular tournament, they play a few games and they're done.
Any format that allows them to play anywhere near as long as the eventual
winner is probably a decent format in my book (unless we're talking a
totally ridiculous one).
>> True. I wouldn't sign up with you, Trent, Chris, Belsito, Elwin, Koz,
>> and
>> Elwin. Have them put their entry in a hat, and once there are eight,
>> play
>> it. That way, the only way to know who you're signing up against is to
>> stand
>> at the table the whole time.
>
> Or, look around and say "Hm, why are these other people all standing
> here waiting for one more name?" In poker tournaments, one way around
> this is a "super satellite" with multiple winners. That way, even if
> you see some big names, you may not have to worry about them.
Or have everyone put their names in and draw a random 8, then call those 8
on PA and give them 10 minutes to show up.
>> Right, but a novice doesn't really want to shell out $40 or $50. I'd bet
>> the
>> main tournament was mostly regular BPA pinball people.
>
> Why not? The $40 for NE Pinball was for an entire weekend of play,
> plus a T-shirt. If I wanted to learn to play better pinball there's
> not much better deal than that. Heck a new player can probably play
> enough pinball that weekend to make it cheaper than 50 cents a game.
> Good deal!
That's a pretty good deal, but I don't see my neighbor paying for it. She's
the example I use for myself when I'm trying to make an event good for
novices now. If she would go "no way!" then it probably won't draw many
people that aren't regular league-type players.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
> - Bowen
>
cody chunn
over to the top 5%. Your list of players plus a few more would win every
tourney for 15 years or more if they went them all. Heck, most shows are
always the same 5 or seven names over and over and over and over etc... My
point being that is doesn't matter what kind of tourney it is, the same guys
are going to be winning them.
I'm done with tourneys.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Pin Wiz Jr." <maizea...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:66Nui.55623$dA7....@newsfe16.lga...
Pin Wiz Jr.
Seriously, you should check out the Fairfax Monthly Pinball Tournament. It's
very unique and gives every player a shot to win money. For every increment
of three players, another division is added (maximum 5 divisions) and the
top two in each division win cash. Yeah, that means that if 3, 6, 9, 12, or
15 players show up, 2/3 of them get cash prizes. From what I've heard,
you're a pretty good player, so if you made it into the middle (advanced)
division at a tournament with 15 people, you would have a shot to win $18
(or $10 for 2nd place) from your one-time $10 entry fee and $3 coin drop. If
you made it into the 2nd (professional) division, you would have a shot at
$23 or $12 for 2nd place. BTW, you play your way into the divisions, in case
you didn't read the rest of the thread.
I don't care that the same people are always winning tourneys, but I think
the people who aren't those people should still be able to compete and win.
Just as importantly, they should get to play just as many matches as the
winners, because nobody likes playing 2 games and going home while the
winner got to play 15 for the same entry fee.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mt-dnTgh_4cFMybb...@comcast.com...
Lloyd Olson
will most likely be a good player, for your $40 you get an event T shirt and
Famous Dave's ribs and chicken and a lot of fun. Or the October Pinball
Circus, where three of the four tournaments are included in the entry fee,
and are designed where every player has a pretty good chance at winning. LTG
:)
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mt-dnTgh_4cFMybb...@comcast.com...
Josh Sharpe
players played for the money that most of even the "good" players
would come up in the red. Personally if I break even for a calendar
year I deem it a huge success.
I think what people like Lloyd, Ethan and Bowen have done better than
many other "bigger" tournaments is focus on providing competitive
entertainment for the players' dollar. I think you'll find that events
like MayDay, FMPT and Pin-Mania, PinBrawl where you simply get to play
a sh*tload of pinball for not a lot of money is worth it for the
incredible amount of fun you have.
PinBrawl for example gives out $0 to anyone, and yet we're able to get
160 players to play. If you can find a way to not focus on the dollars
but focus on the amount of fun you can have for your tournament
dollar, I think you'll find "it's more fun to compete" or whatever the
Gottlieb slogan was.
-Josh
cody chunn
wanted to win at something. The problem is that there's not enough ponds for
the big fish to swim in. So they jump from one pond to the next eating up
all the food. There is such a small number of shows/tourneys that every
single one these days has several world class players who have already
proven their mettle in even bigger tourneys showing up and blowing everyone
out. For what?
The comparison I'd make is if Tiger Woods showed up at every po-dunk golf
tourney in the country. What would be the point? Now with WPPR bragging
points there's even less of a chance of finding a regional tourney that's
not spoiled by world class players (as if the money wasn't enough to do this
already). I just wish there were enough shows to accomodate the world class
players so they wouldn't feel so compelled to go after every single tourney
out there.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186707618....@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
I would very much like to make it up to your place for one of your events.
Not for a tourney, but just for the experience and meeting all the locals
and trevellers. It sounds like heap good time that I hope to enjoy one day.
But I hold out no hope for the tourneys.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:ecidncl7VP5KLybb...@skypoint.com...
cody chunn
That sounds like a cool tourney, but it's not quite what I'm talking about.
I have won a local tourney here in town. That was my first baby step into
tourneys. The next step is a regional show. The problem is that there's so
few regionals, the national level players flock to those as well, basically
killing any chances for the "pretty good" player. It's just two different
worlds colliding, and national class will win every time.
It does make me feel good that you have heard of my moderate playing skills.
I just can't seem to make the next level, so I'm not going to fool myself
anymore.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Pin Wiz Jr." <maizea...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:OnOui.65452$g86....@newsfe14.lga...
Lloyd Olson
was an event run all by itself, your attendence would be a lot smaller.
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186707618....@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> PinBrawl for example gives out $0 to anyone, and yet we're able to get
> 160 players to play. > -Josh
Josh Sharpe
Expo in that alot of people go to Expo because PinBrawl is there. I
know that many of the people who brings games to Expo only bring games
because of the PinBrawl tournament, so maybe it's not a poor
example . . . but perhaps we can call it a mediocre one? :-)
In either case, even removing PinBrawl from that list, the things the
other tournaments in that list have done to cater to the non-wizard
type player are to be highly commended. It proves that you don't need
to necessarily win a tournament in order to have a good time.
I will continue to disagree with you Cody in that anyone CAN win these
larger than local tournaments even against the "heavy hitters". I
guess I happen to see all these results pass my desk when I'm entering
results into the database. Most recently, we just saw it a couple
weeks ago when Chris Wamsley won Pin-Mania with a very difficult field
of competition (having to face Bowen in the finals- easily one of the
world's greatest players). 3 years ago he was playing C division at
PAPA.
You also don't necessarily need to reach that "next level" to be
successful, with many tournaments having multiple skill divisions. I
don't think anyone would fault you for playing a B division (unless of
course you dominated everyone) ;-)
I know when my skills weren't even close to that "next level" I had
plenty of fun playing Juniors, C division and B division throughout
the years. Just compete with players at your same skill level and I
think you can still squeeze out some fun out of these tournaments for
yourself. That's what we focus on in PinBrawl to the point of
assinging players into groups within the same skill level ourselves.
You should give it a shot if you make it out to Expo. I think most
past participants will tell you that you won't be disappointed.
-Josh
Pin Wiz Jr.
another chance, because there really is no other tournament like the FMPT,
IMO. It was created by guys (myself and my dad) who know what it's like to
not be able to compete with the world-class players who are at every
tournament these days, and we wanted everyone else to have a chance as well.
32% of players so far have won a plaque (for winning division), and 64% have
won money (for top 2 in each division).
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:CLadnRcDnO7lWybb...@comcast.com...
Josh Sharpe
http://p3tournament.com/p3tournament/allentown/scores/2007/a_division/saturday/overall.asp
Who's that #4 qualifier? ;-)
-Josh
Pin Wiz Jr.
Having that feeling in recent memory is pretty much the same. I think the
hardest part is choosing B division. I didn't mind being in it, but I didn't
want to start out below other players right away. That was the problem, and
I think some match play at the beginning of a tournament would have made me
feel better about it. I especially would have liked to still be able to win
an equal trophy/plaque to that of the overall champion, which I think
Pinbrawl does well. The trophies are beatiful. For everyone, not just A
Division.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
"Josh Sharpe" <pin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186714204.3...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Bowen Kerins
> The sad truth remains that 95% of tourney players are just handing money
> over to the top 5%. Your list of players plus a few more would win every
> tourney for 15 years or more if they went them all. Heck, most shows are
> always the same 5 or seven names over and over and over and over etc... My
> point being that is doesn't matter what kind of tourney it is, the same guys
> are going to be winning them.
>
> I'm done with tourneys.
Fair enough, but I feel like there are a lot of people who will play
in tournaments even when they don't feel like they have a real shot at
winning a cash prize. I'd love to go to a Scrabble tournament -- and
I'd have absolutely no chance to win a thing. I could go to ten of
those, and no chance in any of them.
I think Ethan's pointing out, and I agree, that the goal of a
tournament should be to give all the players a good experience. Maybe
for you, that means a tournament with no money involved? The first
few tournaments I went to, I was certain I had no chance of winning a
thing, but was more interested in learning how to play good pinball by
meeting and watching the best.
What about the A/B format used in New England? Would you feel like
you had no chance there, when there are prizes available to the
players who do best in the bottom half of the field? What about
PAPA's B and C Divisions, which take all the players on your list out
of the equation? Just curious, really :)
- Bowen
cody chunn
> On Aug 9, 8:17 pm, "cody chunn" <cchu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The sad truth remains that 95% of tourney players are just handing money
>> over to the top 5%. Your list of players plus a few more would win every
>> tourney for 15 years or more if they went them all. Heck, most shows are
>> always the same 5 or seven names over and over and over and over etc...
>> My
>> point being that is doesn't matter what kind of tourney it is, the same
>> guys
>> are going to be winning them.
>>
>> I'm done with tourneys.
>
> Fair enough, but I feel like there are a lot of people who will play
> in tournaments even when they don't feel like they have a real shot at
> winning a cash prize.
Sure, nothing wrong with giving people you like your entry fees. I will
still play in tourneys because they usually use a new game I very likely may
not see again for years. It will be a diminished experience because the
games are usually set up beyond design specs, but what can ya do.
> I'd love to go to a Scrabble tournament -- and
> I'd have absolutely no chance to win a thing. I could go to ten of
> those, and no chance in any of them.
>
I'm a Scrabbler too. Try the online Scrabbling game rooms...there's sharks
in there too.
> I think Ethan's pointing out, and I agree, that the goal of a
> tournament should be to give all the players a good experience. Maybe
> for you, that means a tournament with no money involved? The first
> few tournaments I went to, I was certain I had no chance of winning a
> thing, but was more interested in learning how to play good pinball by
> meeting and watching the best.
>
Yeah, that hasn't worked out so good for me.
> What about the A/B format used in New England? Would you feel like
> you had no chance there, when there are prizes available to the
> players who do best in the bottom half of the field? What about
> PAPA's B and C Divisions, which take all the players on your list out
> of the equation? Just curious, really :)
>
The only tourneys I have been able to enter were best 16 scores advance type
of deals. Early on, I did well. Never won, but did ok. Then I started paying
attention and saw how easily and by huge margins the world class playes were
routing the pretty good players. It's a joke. But I'm not laughing.
Yeah, I think a divisional tourney would be better, but I simply can't
travel to multiple shows. I get one a year. That one now attracts multiple
national level players every year, so it's blown out. It's OK, though, the
show still has plenty other games to play. The side tourneys are also blown
out every year, unfortunately.
> - Bowen
>
-
--cody
CARGPB4
Pin Wiz Jr.
There's your problem. A really good qualifying tourney like PAPA has (IMO)
players play a string of games and get points based on all three, with no
mixing and matching from different entries. Anyone can have a good game, but
it's hard to string together 4 or 5 really good games in a row, and PAPA
challenges players to do that. The best players in each division really do
make it. No lucky high scores.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
cody chunn
freakin world championship. My problem is with gaggles of "pros"
*everywhere* else.
*thump-thump* is this thing on?
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Pin Wiz Jr." <maizea...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:E00vi.44932$GO6....@newsfe21.lga...
Pin Wiz Jr.
The FMPT's (www.virginiapinball.org) ranked players have been #82, #105,
#123, #192, #228, #264, #286, #458, and #865. Plenty of good players, but no
world-class, dominant guys. The only 'world class' player in this area is
Chris Newsom, who hasn't been playing as many tournaments lately. Trent
(Ohio) and McEwen (PA) show up to the FPO, but that's got $500+ and 25
WPPRs.
As much as it would be nice to have a tournament without the best players,
what are you going to do? Can't shut them out. The alternative is to have
small divisions, that are played into, and the top players will all make
their way into their own division, while everyone else can play amongst
themselves.
I get where you're coming from, and I'd like to hear your suggestions about
ways to fix the problems you feel exist.
-Ethan Blonder
--
www.virginiapinball.org
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:F6idneJqsfW_mSDb...@comcast.com...
cody chunn
with tourneys.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Pin Wiz Jr." <maizea...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:FG7vi.100532$dA7....@newsfe16.lga...
Lloyd Olson
I do hope you continue enjoying pinball, and playing with friends. At home,
or shows, or on location. Because pinball is supposed to be about having
fun, and I know you've liked pinball for a long time and I'd hate to see you
not enjoying the wild ball somewhere. LTG :)
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hY-dneuZGL4XvCPb...@comcast.com...
Outlane Drain Train
> On Aug 9, 5:58 pm, "Pin Wiz Jr." <maizeandb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > btw, I think that qualifying is not the same at every tournament, even if
> > there is the same format. People who qualify at a tournament should with 8
> > total qualifiers should get more points than players at a tournament where
> > 16 players qualify.
>
> I don't agree with this only because the field can vary so severely.
> It's really hard to make top 16 at PAPA, but it's not hard to make top
> offense intended!)
I tried to get three players to go to HAAG, players who travel to
shows, but none of them were able to make it. Their loss, it was a
fun series of tournaments, one after the other.
It also did not help that I put up a 1.1B on POTC on my first entry,
discouraging much of the competition.
Chris
>
cody chunn
show a year if I can until something changes that. I just won't be
circulating through the tourney qualifier line near as much after my
freebies are used up. Like I said, I'll have to if I want to play a new game
I may not see again for a long time, but I will not be trying to qualify, I
will be trying to enjoy a game that's set up too hard to enjoy very much.
There's still a great time to be had at shows and events without the tourney
and prospect of being a "champ". It will be a pethetic adjustment but I will
be ok. Up 'till now the only reason I went to shows (purposefully avoiding
the "majors" since 2K) was to go for a tourney win. That's over now.
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:a6adnV-CRc7RviPb...@skypoint.com...