1 Sub-Wolfer/ Multiple Pins
Bruce
was speaking with John Butler last week and he mentioned he had a
friend that had 3 pins using the same (1) sub-wolfer by diode
isolating the outputs of the Pins. (3 pinball machine speaker outputs
into 1 sub-wolfer input) This makes sense. My question is since the
outputs are 25 watts, what type of diodes should be used. (Incidently,
yes the sub-wolfer can take high powered outputs).
Which leads me to question number 2. Is there any direct line level
output points on WPC/WPC-95 games to jack into prior to the (on-board)
amplifier in the pin?
Arizona Bruce
Boobbbbbb
signal is AC, you would only get half the audio information.
I would recommend using a resistor valued at about 10K to bring them
together, then hooking it up to the line level input of the powered
subwoofer. You may need to use another single resistor from the input to
ground to lower the input voltage (acts as a voltage divider).
Good luck.
"Bruce" <bruc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:395a1a88.03060...@posting.google.com...
Carl Witthoft
bruc...@yahoo.com (Bruce) wrote:
> I have a powered 100 watt sub-wolfer currently hooked up to my ToM.
You use it to catch sub-sheep?
heh heh I just thought this was a great little malapropism.
Or-- and here us cellists work hard to eliminate wolf-tones and you go creating
more :-)
--
Carl Witthoft c...@witthoft.com http://www.witthoft.com
Bruce
AC? Also if Ibring the power down to line level wouldn't I still have
to diode isolate to keep the outputs of the source from seeing each
other. I think that since the powered sub-wolfer takes both line level
as well as high powered inputs, that it already drops the high power
to line level internaly to then amplfy it again at a higher power.
Question 2. Again,does anyone know of a pre-amplified patch point on
the WPC/WPC95 AV boards to grab a line level signal? I think this
could be a great boon for the audio? I'm thinking in addition to
getting a cleaner signal for an amp you may also be able to add a
delay device to get a synthisized stereo effect, opening up the sound
field. I could see a demand for an after market product. Just spit
ballin' here...
Arizona Bruce
wolffy
pre-amp signal. However this practice appears to have stopped with DCS and
later sound boards.
-wolffy
SDTM
> > > ...he had a
> > > friend that had 3 pins using the same (1) sub-wolfer by diode
> > > isolating the outputs of the Pins
To connect three pinballs to one subwoofer, it would be best to
isolate the outputs. Rather than using diodes as your friend
suggests, the typical way to do this with a passive network would be
to tie the grounds together and have each signal line pass through a
dedicated 10K ohm resistor before connecting them together at the
line-in input of your subwoofer. A better way to do this however, is
to use an inexpensive active mixer, which very effectively isolates
the outputs of the pinball sound boards. If you look at
www.musiciansfriend.com you can find a cheap mixer (the ART mini mixer
is $49.00). Separate level controls will help you to tune the system.
> > > Which leads me to question number 2. Is there any direct line level
> > > output points on WPC/WPC-95 games to jack into prior to the (on-board)
> > > amplifier in the pin?
Here's how to get a line out on WPC pinballs. On the pre DCS boards
(A-12738), Pin 3 on J509 is the signal and pin 1 is ground. On DCS
boards (A-16917) you can add a header to J6, or tap off of resistor
R50 (the side closest to J6) and the ground side of C79. On WPC-95 AV
boards (A-20516) you can add a header to J509, or tap off of the right
side of R84 and any convenient ground (I use the left side of C1).
Because I prefer to leave the boards in their original condition, I
use micro hook clips to attach to the components. Simply solder the
micro hook clips to one end of a shielded wire with a RCA connector on
the other end that connects to the subwoofer.
> I'm thinking in addition to
> getting a cleaner signal for an amp you may also be able to add a
> delay device to get a synthisized stereo effect, opening up the sound
> field.
Ever since I went to Expo and experienced the Korn BK2K, I've been
inspired to try to get the best sound I could out of a pinball
machine. I've experimented with a number of different solutions, and
what follows are some recommendations based on direct comparision of
various pieces of consumer and pro equipment.
So you're using an external subwoofer. If you want even better bass,
you can use a subharmonic synthesizer. These cool boxes analyze the
input signal, and add bass one octave below the existing bass in the
music. In other words, they add incredible depth to the pinball
soundtrack. Your subwoofer needs to be a pretty good one to take
advantage of this kind of unit. Some of the better subharmonic
synthesizers are the dbx 120X-DS, the AudioControl PCA series 3, the
Behringer Ultrabass Pro EX1200, the Alesis GRIP and the Furman Punch
10. While all of these work pretty well, I'd give a slight edge to
the dbx and the AudioControl as the most musical of the bunch. The
dbx is a popular piece with DJs, who use it to add extra slam to their
sound systems. The Behringer is interesting because it can add
subharmonics 2 octaves down, and this coupled with a good noise gate
like a Drawmer PowerGate and a tactile transducer like a Guitammer
Buttkicker can act like a shaker motor in a pin. One thing to keep in
mind, is that the Behringer, Alesis and Furman are all pro pieces, and
thus use balanced I/O and pro levels so you'll need converters to move
the signal between the pro & consumer equipment.
You are correct in assuming that you can get stereo sound from a
Williams or Bally pinball. You mention using a delay device which can
add an echo like effect, but perhaps a better alternative would be to
use a stereo synthesizer. It's a good idea to first equalize the
signal, because the anti-imaging filters after the DAC on the sound
board suppress the high end signals pretty significantly. Also, if
you're going to synthesize stereo you should use better speakers than
the stock speakers. An excellent choice are the Acoustic Energy AEGO
satellite speakers, they are very small and they've got great sound.
I believe they are the smallest satellite speaker ever to garner a
recommended status from Stereophile magazine. These speakers are not
acoustically flat however, so you'll need to use active equalization
to get the best sound.
To turn the pinball's mono sound into stereo some options are the
Vidcraft Stereo Synthesizer, the SRS pro 220, the Qsound UltraQ, the
Orban 275A, and the Heathkit SK-107. The Vidicraft produces the best
stereo output to my ears, but when coupled with the virtual surround
described in the next paragraph, the SRS produces a comparable result.
Once you have synthesized stereo, you can get a wider soundstage (make
the sound appear to come from beyond the speakers) by using vitual
surround. This effect is somewhat like surround sound, but is
produced with only two speakers. The soundstage is widened, but does
not extend behind you. To get this effect, you can try the SRS pro
220, the SRS WOW Thing, the Qsound UltraQ, the Spatializer HTMS2510,
and the Behringer Edison EX1. My preference goes to the SRS pro 220,
although the WOW Thing has a nifty bass enhancement feature. Note
that some of these units cannot generate a sound field from a mono
signal, so you have to front-end them with a stereo synthesizer.
Other sound sweeteners include the BBE 882I Sonic Maximizer and the
Aphex Model 204 Aural Exciter. I've recently purchased these but
haven't yet plugged them into the system to see if they produce a
pleasing effect.
Finally, if you're really a lunatic you can use 7 speakers (3 in
front, 3 in the back, 1 subwoofer) by converting the mono pinball
signal into a pseudo 6.1 channel signal using SRS Circle Surround II.
Now, this is not true discrete 6.1 so you won't hear sounds flying
around you, but this setup produces a surprisingly rich surround field
and to my ear sounds less processed and more pleasing than the virtual
surround sound effect. A relatively cost effective way to do this is
to use a Kenwood VR-6050 receiver which has the Circle Surround II
processing built in as an option.
Anyone else out there doing anything exciting with pinball sound?
steve
Bruce
synthisizer and was planning to use it. I have an Aphex Aural exciter
as well, which creates even harmonics (even harmonics are pleasing to
the ear and are a characteristic of tube tefchnology, kinda like
sythisizing a tube amp with silicon)but I think that may be overkill.
Again it would be quite time consuming and costly to do this to all of
your pins, however if I could tie 3 pins at line level into the
subharmonic sythisizer and subwolfer, thats like 3 for the price of
one. Then I would experiment individulaly with widening the sound
field later.
To the poster who mention the adding a header to grab the line level
signal (Which is preffered for me to taping off the components) which
pins are the signal and the ground on those headers (Could probably
get the schematic out, but if you know it would save me the trouble)
Thanks
Arizona Bruce
SDTM
> I have a DBX sub-harmonic synthesizer and was planning to use it.
Great Bruce! Let me know how you like it. There is a noticeable
improvement in bass response on my pinball system. As you point out,
the dbx box can be shared by your pins by summing the signals and then
applying them to the line in of the dbx. You're lucky you have one of
these because they are getting harder to buy on ebay due to the large
DJ market for these units. One thing I found is that you can
definitely overdrive a small subwoofer (less than 10") with this so be
careful.
> ... Then I would experiment individulaly with widening the sound
> field later.
Let me know how it works out. If you can find a SRS Pro220 on ebay
it's a nice little box to get a wide soundfield out of a pin. Very
surprising result when you A/B test it.
>
> To the poster who mention the adding a header to grab the line level
> signal (Which is preffered for me to taping off the components) which
> pins are the signal and the ground on those headers (Could probably
> get the schematic out, but if you know it would save me the trouble)
I'm at work now and can't look but when I checked last night it was
very obvious from looking at the board traces which pin would go to
ground. Worse case, use an ohm meter to check it out. On the DCS
board (A-16917) the ground
pin would have continuity to the side of C79 that is connected into
the very wide ground area. Or else you can check for continuity with
the plated holes where the screws attach the board to the backbox. On
WPC-95 AV boards (A-20516) check for continuity with the left side of
C1, which is ground. If you need a better description, I'll email you
once I get home and can take some pictures.
Good luck Bruce, did you plan to try out that active mixer?
steve
Bruce
>
> Great Bruce! Let me know how you like it. There is a noticeable
> improvement in bass response on my pinball system. As you point out,
> the dbx box can be shared by your pins by summing the signals and then
> applying them to the line in of the dbx. You're lucky you have one of
> these because they are getting harder to buy on ebay due to the large
> DJ market for these units. One thing I found is that you can
> definitely overdrive a small subwoofer (less than 10") with this so be
> careful.
>
> > ... Then I would experiment individulaly with widening the sound
> > field later.
>
> Let me know how it works out. If you can find a SRS Pro220 on ebay
> it's a nice little box to get a wide soundfield out of a pin. Very
> surprising result when you A/B test it.
> Good luck Bruce, did you plan to try out that active mixer?
>
> steve
Come to think of it Steve. I have a 14 channel Mackie, since long
standing wave are none directional. I could run every pin I have
through 1 DBX sub-harmonic synthisizer and 1 subwolfer. If you had a
recording of 1 100 piece orchestra, there would be several instruments
playing low frequency tones and would be reproduced fine with one sub
wolfer... Any idea how 13 pins would sound? (serious) Properly mixed
of course.
Arizona Bruce
MM, MB, SS, ToM, CV, TZ, JY, WCS94, T2, FT, DH WD?, NF
SDTM
> To the poster who mention the adding a header to grab the line level
> signal (Which is preffered for me to taping off the components) which
> pins are the signal and the ground on those headers
On J6 of the DCS board (A-16917), the ground pin is the one closest to
the heat sinks (btw it is labeled Gnd). On the WPC-95 board (A-20516)
ground is the left pin on J509 (the one farthest from the large
capacitors).
Good luck!
steve
The Korn
> > I'm thinking in addition to
> > getting a cleaner signal for an amp you may also be able to add a
> > delay device to get a synthisized stereo effect, opening up the sound
> > field.
>
> Ever since I went to Expo and experienced the Korn BK2K, I've been
> inspired to try to get the best sound I could out of a pinball
> machine.
:))
> You are correct in assuming that you can get stereo sound from a
> Williams or Bally pinball.
Wellll, _sorta_. Not meaning to put you (or your ears down), but you
can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. While you can add equipment
(such as the littany of products you mentioned! :) ) to "fake"
stereo, there really ISN'T any substitute for the real thing.
I guess I'm just picky; every time I hear a stereo synthesizer or
aural expander or similar device, while they might have a "wow" factor
for a few minutes, I inevitably wind up turning them _off_. The
general principle behind many of these (even the "completely digital"
units) is that they simply play with the phasing of the signal to make
the sound appear as stereo, or to widen the soundstage. After years
of playing with mounting speakers all crazy (trying to get the center
of the cones aligned for correct timing), and paying ultra attention
to phase, products such as this just.... bug the heck out of me. :)
So what I'm trying to say here is Your Mileage May Vary. DON'T buy
_any_ of these by mail order; "you" _have_ to hear how they sound on a
_good_ set of speakers with a musical program that "you" _know_ in
order to make an intelligent decision about them. (I'm not really
talking to _you_ in particular, I'm talking to "you", "joe reader" out
there.) They might sound just fine to "you", or they might annoy the
crap out of "you" like they do me.
> You mention using a delay device which can
> add an echo like effect
Conversely, I kind of like echo/chorus effects. I know, I'm friggin'
weird. :)
> Finally, if you're really a lunatic you can use 7 speakers (3 in
> front, 3 in the back, 1 subwoofer) by converting the mono pinball
> signal into a pseudo 6.1 channel signal using SRS Circle Surround II.
And I thought I was nuts. :) Wait, I constrained myself to the
dimensions of a routeable game. :))
Barry H.
no...no...no.
The "Sub-Wolfer" works under the "Wolfer". An "Apprentice Wolfer" if you will.
:)
Carl Witthoft <cgw...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<cgwcgw-785430....@netnews.attbi.com>...
wolffy
>
>The "Sub-Wolfer" works under the "Wolfer". An "Apprentice Wolfer" if you
>will.
>
>:)
That's good to know. I'm so busy I need a hand. So I'm taking applications
for s sub-wolffy :)
-wolffy
Rondondo
want to use more than one pin at the same time?
bruc...@yahoo.com (Bruce) wrote in message news:<395a1a88.03060...@posting.google.com>...
SDTM
the...@hotmail.com (The Korn) wrote in message news:<b2262ce8.03061...@posting.google.com>...
> Not meaning to put you (or your ears down), but you can't turn a sow's ear
> into a silk purse.
when it comes to pinball sound we have a silk purse trapped inside a
sow's ear! We all understand how the economic choices made by the
manufacturers guaranteed a mediocre sound experience. Cheap speakers,
anti-imaging filters in the audible range, underpowered amplifiers,
overly aggressive compression, all of those choices were made based on
the assumption that no one would care about sound quality. That's why
your inspirational BK2K was such a revelation. You demonstrated that
it is possible to get great sound out of these things!
And I think you'll agree, great sound makes for a better pinball
experience. An acoustician friend of mine once explained that when
you watch a movie, the picture delivers most of the plot, but the
emotion is primarily encoded in the sound. The swelling or foreboding
music cues you to feel scared or happy. He pointed out that watching
a movie with the sound turned way down just doesn't have the same
impact. I think the same is true about pinball.
So I guess the question is, what is great sound? The devices that
"bug" you (the stereo synthesizers and virtual surround systems)
actually made the least difference to the sound compared to the
dramatic improvements gleaned from using dedicated audiophile speakers
and subwoofer, equalization, and subharmonic synthesis to add lower
octaves of bass. I have to admit that I enjoy the envelopment that is
provided by the two speaker virtual surround, but not as much as the
six speaker surround available from Circle Surround II which sounds
much less processed. That being said, I think most people wouldn't
even notice the surround sound compared with the bass shaker tied to
the noise gate and subharmonic synthesizer (you can feel the cool
castle explosions, great saucer booms, real crate hits)!
> I guess I'm just picky; every time I hear a stereo synthesizer or aural
> expander or similar device, while they might have a "wow" factor for a few
> minutes, I inevitably wind up turning them _off_.
Yes, I'm also picky which is why I auditioned every one of these
devices I could find. And yes, a few of them were truly cringe-worthy,
but some of them performed surprisingly well. The pro ones are
tunable so you can back off on the processing to get the most natural
sound. Most high-end audiophiles I know would indeed turn their noses
up at these units, but then, most audiophiles wouldn't consider a
pinball machine to be a viable audio source!
> The general principle behind many of these (even the "completely digital"
> units) is that they simply play with the phasing of the signal to make the
> sound appear as stereo, or to widen the soundstage.
Different manufacturers seem to use different approaches. The SRS
mono to stereo algorithm diverts the 100 - 20Khz band through a 90
degree constant phase filter for one channel to get the simulated
stereo. The Orban (which is a studio piece) actually separates bands
of frequencies using reciprocal comb filters. I wish I knew how the
Vidicraft worked because it produces sweet natural sounding stereo.
Most of the virtual surround units are using Head Related Transfer
Functions to trick your brain into thinking that the sound is coming
from outside the speakers. Isn't this more of a frequency domain
trick than a phasing trick?
> After years of playing with mounting speakers all crazy (trying to get the
> enter of the cones aligned for correct timing), and paying ultra attention to
> phase, products such as this just.... bug the heck out of me. :)
Well, I respect your opinion Korn, but I like the envelopment of the
sound that comes off of the better processors. Which ones bother you?
I guess there's some common ground because my preferred solution
provides full bandwidth to the rear speakers and doesn't play any
phase delay tricks. It does use six speakers though.
Just out of curiosity Korn, did you actually time align the speakers
for your BK2K? If so, bravo! I found that the greatest improvement
to the sound after upgrading speakers and subwoofer was using a
parametric equalizer with a real time analyzer to tune the spectrum to
the room, but I haven't done too much with phase alignment.
> DON'T buy _any_ of these by mail order; "you" _have_ to hear how they sound
> on a _good_ set of speakers with a musical program that "you" _know_ in order
> to make an intelligent decision about them.
I smiled when I read this because I imagined dragging a pinball
machine into an audiophile boutique and connecting it so a set of
Halcros and Wilsons to audition the equipment. As you're probably
aware, most of this equipment is NLA and it is practically impossible
to find any place to audition most of these devices, so ebay was my
only alternative. I completely agree with the second part of your
statement: you do have to listen to these devices w/ your pinball
source to determine if they will work for you. The only way I was
able to do this was to buy them and A/B them at home. I guess was
willing to buy some junk to find the jewels.
> And I thought I was nuts. :) Wait, I constrained myself to the dimensions of
> a routeable game. :))
I remember reading this goal of yours and thought it presented an
awesome challenge. I decided to go a different direction, and chose a
path which in no way altered the machine: no board modifications, no
new screws or bolts into the wood, no enlarging speaker holes, nothing
that was not 100% reversible. Also, because there was no constraint to
fit everything inside the pin, we could go with some pretty
sophisticated outboard equipment and speakers with their own
enclosures. Not to say one strategy is better than the other is,
they're just different approaches.
Looking forward to your seeing/hearing your next project Korn!
steve
Dave DeWinter
news:ebd2490c.03061...@posting.google.com...
> All this technical talk is fine and dandy, but what happens when you
> want to use more than one pin at the same time?
Uhhhh,,,,,,more speakers?
--
Keep em Spinning,
Dave DeWinter
===================================================
"Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote." ---Ben Franklin
===================================================
Visit my Web Page at http://www.thumpernator.com
SDTM
> standing wave are none directional. I could run every pin I have
> through 1 DBX sub-harmonic synthisizer and 1 subwolfer. If you had a
> recording of 1 100 piece orchestra, there would be several instruments
> playing low frequency tones and would be reproduced fine with one sub
> wolfer... Any idea how 13 pins would sound? (serious) Properly mixed
> of course.
Bruce,
Your assumption is based on the principle of superposition, and thus I
would guess that it could be made to work at one location, but I think
the challenge will be balancing the different bass levels for the
machines that are in different locations. Let's say that your
subwoofer is in the middle of a row of 7 pins. At the end of the row
is your SS and in the middle is the MM (next to the sub). When the SS
player gets a crate hit, the subwoofer needs to be loud enough to be
heard by the SS player, but this crash will be inappropriately loud
for the MM player. So while is true that we cannot localize low
frequencies, given that sound intensity falls off by the inverse
square law, the sound balance will probably be objectionable.
But it was a cool idea...
By the way, nice collection!
steve
The Korn
> > Not meaning to put you (or your ears down), but you can't turn a sow's ear
> > into a silk purse.
>
> No offense taken at all. Actually, I look at it a little differently:
> when it comes to pinball sound we have a silk purse trapped inside a
> sow's ear! We all understand how the economic choices made by the
> manufacturers guaranteed a mediocre sound experience. Cheap speakers,
> anti-imaging filters in the audible range, underpowered amplifiers,
> overly aggressive compression, all of those choices were made based on
> the assumption that no one would care about sound quality.
(You know, I wrote this reply at 1 AM, had it typed out all
eloquently, then managed to hit the wrong a wrong key and closed the
window before I could send it. Argh. So here goes, second attempt.
:) )
Oddly enough, it's exactly _because_ of the limitations (listed above)
that I feel that there's a definite point of diminishing returns w/
regards to upgrading the sound system on a pinball machine.
To take things to a silly extreme (but to illustrate the point! :) ),
you _could_ throw in a pair of Magnapan planar speakers, driven by
either a Levinson or Krell. And it would sound good... Realllllly
good. But then the question becomes, "does it sound $8K _better_?"
While part of me wants to say yes, the other 95% of my brain wakes up
and screams out "NO!!!!". :)
Note too (and I say this more for the peanut gallery than you, since I
think you probably already know this) that there is a difference
between LOUD sound and GOOD sound. If all "you" want to do is make
your game play louder than mine, then there's lots of places to go
without throwing too much money at the problem. But the two
objectives (loud and good) are NOT the same. They aren't mutually
exclusive, either, but often one comes at the expense of the other.
> That's why
> your inspirational BK2K was such a revelation. You demonstrated that
> it is possible to get great sound out of these things!
Thanks! (again!) I will say that the quality of the sound _is_,
however, highly dependent on the original material. Playing with an
early DCS game, while you can make it sound _better_ (as far as the
voice recordings go), you can't make it sound _awesome_, as too much
information was simply thrown away by DCS. (But, it does make the
synthesized music sound really, really nice! :) )
> And I think you'll agree, great sound makes for a better pinball
> experience.
Of course I would! ;)
> An acoustician friend of mine once explained that when
> you watch a movie, the picture delivers most of the plot, but the
> emotion is primarily encoded in the sound. The swelling or foreboding
> music cues you to feel scared or happy. He pointed out that watching
> a movie with the sound turned way down just doesn't have the same
> impact. I think the same is true about pinball.
Oh yeah; we've all played games in arcades that have had the sound
turned really really low, or even off. Sucks balls.
One interesting thing that seems to come up in audio press every 7-9
years is the strange phenomenon that as music gets louder, it starts
sounding better. While I've observed the effect, I can't explain it.
For example, the speakers at a concert usually are absolute trash, but
they sure sound GOOD when blasting out 135 to 140 dB!
> So I guess the question is, what is great sound?
Oh no.... We're going to go _there_.... (rec.audio.religion....)
> The devices that
> "bug" you (the stereo synthesizers and virtual surround systems)
> actually made the least difference to the sound compared to the
> dramatic improvements gleaned from using dedicated audiophile speakers
> and subwoofer, equalization, and subharmonic synthesis to add lower
> octaves of bass.
That intrinsically makes sense to me, since those (except for the
subharmonic synthesizer) are the foundation for producing good sound
from, well, _anything_!
> I have to admit that I enjoy the envelopment that is
> provided by the two speaker virtual surround, but not as much as the
> six speaker surround available from Circle Surround II which sounds
> much less processed.
What, did I make you feel guilty for liking the sound that way? I
won't tell, as long as you don't tell that I sometimes listen to
things with non-flat tone controls. :)
> Most high-end audiophiles I know would indeed turn their noses
> up at these units, but then, most audiophiles wouldn't consider a
> pinball machine to be a viable audio source!
Well, the old joke is still true....
How do you tell the difference between an audiophile and a music
lover?
The music lover will crank up an AM radio when a good song comes on!
(And for the record, yeah, I _still_ will crank it up on AM if it's
the only thing I have!! :) )
> > The general principle behind many of these (even the "completely digital"
> > units) is that they simply play with the phasing of the signal to make the
> > sound appear as stereo, or to widen the soundstage.
>
> Different manufacturers seem to use different approaches. The SRS
> mono to stereo algorithm diverts the 100 - 20Khz band through a 90
> degree constant phase filter for one channel to get the simulated
> stereo.
Yeah, that about matches what my experiences have been.
> The Orban (which is a studio piece) actually separates bands
> of frequencies using reciprocal comb filters.
That actually explains some strange "remastered" CDs I have that have
frequencies bouncing from left to right and back again! (Hey, look,
the guitar is over here... no wait, it just moved over there... no
wait, it moved back over here again!) I had always assumed that the
originals were poor quality stereo tracks, but reading that I wonder
if the originals were mono and simply passed through one of these
devices!
> Most of the virtual surround units are using Head Related Transfer
> Functions to trick your brain into thinking that the sound is coming
> from outside the speakers. Isn't this more of a frequency domain
> trick than a phasing trick?
Honestly, I have no idea! (Best to admit when you don't have a clue,
right?)
> > After years of playing with mounting speakers all crazy (trying to get the
> > enter of the cones aligned for correct timing), and paying ultra attention to
> > phase, products such as this just.... bug the heck out of me. :)
>
> Well, I respect your opinion Korn, but I like the envelopment of the
> sound that comes off of the better processors. Which ones bother you?
Couldn't put a name to it to save my life. Auditioned a number back
in the day and couldn't find any that I liked, so pretty much swore
off the entire concept. Then I bought a TV with one of them in it
(thank God I can turn it off!!).
Ever heard a stereo expander on a stereo image? Don't know which one
the TV has in it, but after your brain figures out what's going on, it
actually sounds like the soundstage is _narrower_ with it on! (At
first, it sounds wider, but then I guess my brain starts to
compensate.)
> I guess there's some common ground because my preferred solution
> provides full bandwidth to the rear speakers and doesn't play any
> phase delay tricks. It does use six speakers though.
No problem with that! It's a mono source, so more noise emission
points doesn't hurt it. :)
> Just out of curiosity Korn, did you actually time align the speakers
> for your BK2K? If so, bravo!
NOOoooooo, noononono... I might be crazy, but I'm not insane. Time
aligning speakers on that machine would push the cost _wayyyyyyy_ up.
Also, my BK2K is by no means perfect. It has a few cabinet resonance
problems (which I could _probably_ clean up, and _probably_ would, if
I hadn't already moved on to "the next game"), and also comits the BIG
sin of wiring the panel speakers in series. (I know, I know,
"ewwwwwwwwww!") I had to do that, though, since I was bridging the
amplifier that I was using into one channel operation. (Life is
always full of compromises!) Didn't turn out too badly, but as
always, there is room for improvement! :)
> I found that the greatest improvement
> to the sound after upgrading speakers and subwoofer was using a
> parametric equalizer with a real time analyzer to tune the spectrum to
> the room, but I haven't done too much with phase alignment.
Careful, you'll wind up with more money in audio electronics than the
game itself!! :)
> > DON'T buy _any_ of these by mail order; "you" _have_ to hear how they sound
> > on a _good_ set of speakers with a musical program that "you" _know_ in order
> > to make an intelligent decision about them.
>
> I smiled when I read this because I imagined dragging a pinball
> machine into an audiophile boutique and connecting it so a set of
> Halcros and Wilsons to audition the equipment.
hehe, while that certainly would be preferable, that wasn't _really_
what I had intended. What I had inteded was, bring a music program
that you know like the back of your hand, run it through one of these
guys, and see if it sounds better or worse than what you started with.
> As you're probably
> aware, most of this equipment is NLA and it is practically impossible
> to find any place to audition most of these devices, so ebay was my
> only alternative.
No, actually, I wasn't aware of that. Since I haven't been in the
market for one of these for a number of years, simply haven't followed
what's been happening with them.
> > And I thought I was nuts. :) Wait, I constrained myself to the dimensions of
> > a routeable game. :))
>
> I remember reading this goal of yours and thought it presented an
> awesome challenge. I decided to go a different direction, and chose a
> path which in no way altered the machine: no board modifications, no
> new screws or bolts into the wood, no enlarging speaker holes, nothing
> that was not 100% reversible. Also, because there was no constraint to
> fit everything inside the pin, we could go with some pretty
> sophisticated outboard equipment and speakers with their own
> enclosures. Not to say one strategy is better than the other is,
> they're just different approaches.
Oh yeah; different engineering constraints will always produce
completely different engineering responses. I.E. the solution will
mold itself to fit the problem. Whether one approach is better than
another simply depends on what the intended purpose is.
(it'd be great to have all that outboard stuff, but then again if I
wanted to take the machine to a show, I'd need a roadie! :) )
Shoot me an email address.
Barry H.
hehe...no! More WOLFERS! :)
B.
"Dave DeWinter" <rv...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<bcao2r$jrm$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>...