Whose got a tough EM problem out there? Bring it on...unless it's an EggHead
chibler
preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
withdrawals...
Just finished the mechanicals on a friends Gottlieb Egghead. Egghead
gets my vote for the absolute toughest EM to shop; at least that I've
encountered. It has a relay bank with about 23 latch relays containing
at least 4 switches (each one has to be perfect), about a dozen under
the playfield including one for each pop bumper, and a few others here
and there. If you don't gap the "X" and "O" standup targets correctly
(i.e. contacts touching that should not, then every time you hit a 50
point rollover, the "X" or "O" light will come on through a "sneek
circuit". Man, I sure hope that thing keeps working. It was a
boo-ooger.
Happy Holidays!
--
Chris Hibler
AL
Be Careful what you wish for....I can always bring Monte Carlo up from
the garage. :-)
As always, I would feel honored to be a part of the group that tackles
the next fix.
Happy Holidays!
AL
kansas city pinball.com
i that case you'll need the worlds leading expert on motorized trip
relay banks.
i'm in )
JOHN
Del
Hows that ? =)
Pin-Del
CARGPB28
Number400
Bally Hi-Low Ace
Most of the time, the game will only give you 4 balls. Every once in a
while, 5. Everything else seems to work perfectly.
Many thanks!
Ed
alexf
I'm working on this 1960 Williams Serenade that I bought about a month
ago. It's got one issue that has me stumped. I have been through it and
cleaned and adjusted all the contacts, cleaned the steppers etc. It
plays fine with the exception of 5 or 50 point scoring. There are four
rollovers and a eject hole that score 5 or 50 points depending on
whether they are lit or not. When they are tripped the the game
hesitates makes a buzzing noise and clicks one unit on the appropriate
ones or tens reel. Not 5 like it should. I emailed Clay and he said to
adjust the gap on the score motor switch on the 'impulse' wheel. I have
looked over and adjusted and cleaned the score motor switches about 20
times and doesn't seem to make a difference. I cannot guarantee that
the score motot isn't without issue but am starting to doubt that's the
problem.
I should mention there are point relays on the bottom panel that score
5,10, 20 ,30 or 40 points. When I manually trip the relays 10 and 20
will score appropriatly but all others give the same problem as
described above.
I have a schematic on the way. I have never been very good at figuring
them out, but If I can locate what works in relation to these rollovers
I may have some luck ( I hope). Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks,
Alex Fuchs
PV
"chibler" <chi...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1166401130.2...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Come on guys. We need to have some fun. Bring it on. Gottlieb
> preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
> fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
> withdrawals...
1972 Williams Honey
Plug it in and the GI is extremely bright, trip the coin switch for a credit
and the main fuse blows in spectacular fashion.
Unplug and then plug in again, normal lighting, trip the switch credit
registers and machine plays.
Seems to be a random thing and I am leaning toward the bridge rectifier but
haven't had time to play. Am I on the right track?
PV
GOCATGO
the lift "acuators"("spelling?"....the little white plastic pc that
helps the switch do what it is supposed to do)on the involved switches.
It's not always a common thing to look for when troubleshooting, but
if missing, the switch will not operate properly. Hope that may be of
help. Keep us posted...Russ
Mark Salas
> "chibler"
> > Come on guys. We need to have some fun. Bring it on. Gottlieb
> > preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
> > fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
> > withdrawals...
No problems with my recently acquired Fast Draw.
...other than a few think the tilt is too liberal. I now have the "A"
team list when I run into problems.
Cliffy
can troubleshoot :)
Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
for me. Ready?
1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
Go! :)
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Gott Lieb?
It sounds like your zero position switch was adjusted incorrectly on
the credit unit.
Jim
AL
> You could always re-clutch the mixer unit on my Miss America !!!
> Hows that ? =)
Del,
Give me your coordinates and I'll call in the air strike. :-)
Happy Holidays!
AL
Gott Lieb?
had a nagging problem with my Spanish Eyes that I figured out months
after it was restored.
Here's some backgorund. When the ball lands in the center hole, it
will award 500 points when none of the six targets on the PF have been
hit. However, depending on the amount of targets hit, the value will
increment 1,000 points per target. Now, every target that had been hit
scored properly, except the six. The hole scoring sequence would
recognize that the six had been hit approx. 90% of the time. The
switch that the six target was on was also the last motor cam prior to
the ball being kicked out of the hole. It appeared that the cam was
out of sync. Well, the problem turned out being a problem with the
actuator. The wrong kind was put on this particular switch stack. It
should have been nylon, but it was replaced with a metal one. The
subtle travel difference between a metal actuator and a metal one made
the timing completely different.
I said all of that, to say this. Make certain that the actuator on
your stack that you're having issues with is made of metal.
Jim
Ron Strom
chi...@charter.net says...
Inviting problems? Are you kidding?
Actually, makes me wish I didn't just give away my free EM because I
thought it too much trouble.
I'll get one someday though since they're what I grew up on. I want one
that works (or close) to start with so I can learn slowly as glitches
develop.
--
Ron -- CARGPB7 -- (Change hot to ice to email)
AL
> 1972 Williams Honey
>
> Plug it in and the GI is extremely bright, trip the coin switch for a credit
> and the main fuse blows in spectacular fashion.
>
> Unplug and then plug in again, normal lighting, trip the switch credit
> registers and machine plays.
>
> Seems to be a random thing and I am leaning toward the bridge rectifier but
> haven't had time to play. Am I on the right track?
>
PV,
It sounds like a short between your solenoid bus (Post game over relay)
and the Playfield illumination. once a game starts, all of the
solenoids receive power and your fuse blows. I would suspect that it is
an illumination return wire in close proximity to the solenoid power.
One place they always seem to come "too" close is at the base of the
pop bumpers. Check there.
Another quick isolation techinque is to disconnect the playfield jones
plugs from the cabinet and try it again. If the fuse stops blowing it's
a short on the playfield.
Happy Holidays!
AL
alexf
that are there are of nyon or plastic variety. I'm hoping it will be
obvious if one's missing but man if somebody replaced one with a
different size I'd have a heck of a time figuring that out. Fortunately
in the Spanish Eyes scenario the one replaced was made of a different
material to make it stand out some.
Alex
Gott Lieb?
that your max credit switch was open at 0 and 1 credit on the wheel.
Jim
AL
> You EM guys seem to be a special sort of crazy (Especially AL :)
> Inviting problems? Are you kidding?
Whooooaah Nelly...Let's back up the truck a minute here and take a
simple quiz:
[1] Who was minding their own d@mned business tonight?
a ~ AL
b ~ Chris "I'm a glutton for punishment" Hibler
[2] Who launced this wicked thread on what was such a peaceful night?
a ~ Chris "Apparently I'm really bored and need to suck the rest of the
gang in" Hibler
b ~ AL "apparently I'm a special sort of crazy because I was minding my
own d@mned business tonight" Garber
[3] Who's really clogging up the drain with problems that have already
been fixed?
a ~ Clippy
Ron if you answered "a" to the above three questions, You've Won!!!
AL
Gott Lieb?
in play unit has been cleaned, lubed, and it not all gummed up. It's
either that your spring tension is too tight on the ball in play unit,
or the contact for the fifth ball on the "spider" is worn or missing.
Jim
AL
Please send all prizes to a worthy charity on my behalf.
AL
AL
Chime in any time Chris. You're the one that stirred up all of this.
I agree with Clay. (Let The heavens open up and swallow me whole :-)
) I think it relates to your score motor. Look for a cam with five
notches. 50 points in EM logic is 10 points repeated five times.
Typically the only mechanism that can do that is a score motor. If you
can wait 'till the schematic comes in you should look for that motor
cam switch in line with the tem point relay.
Happy Holidays!
AL
Larry Wolfe
Tell me about it!!! I have an Egg Head and I remember what a pain it
was to get it going a few years back.......
Larry
Brian Saunders
On Dec 17, 7:43 pm, Ron Strom <ron...@hothouse.net> wrote:
> In article <1166401130.269736.209...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> chib...@charter.net says...
>
> > Come on guys. We need to have some fun. Bring it on. Gottlieb
> > preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
> > fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
> > withdrawals...
>
> > Just finished the mechanicals on a friends Gottlieb Egghead. Egghead
> > gets my vote for the absolute toughest EM to shop; at least that I've
> > encountered. It has a relay bank with about 23 latch relays containing
> > at least 4 switches (each one has to be perfect), about a dozen under
> > the playfield including one for each pop bumper, and a few others here
> > and there. If you don't gap the "X" and "O" standup targets correctly
> > (i.e. contacts touching that should not, then every time you hit a 50
> > point rollover, the "X" or "O" light will come on through a "sneek
> > circuit". Man, I sure hope that thing keeps working. It was a
> > boo-ooger.
>
> > Happy Holidays!
> > --
> > Chris HiblerYou EM guys seem to be a special sort of crazy (Especially AL :)
> Inviting problems? Are you kidding?
>
> Actually, makes me wish I didn't just give away my free EM because I
> thought it too much trouble.
>
> I'll get one someday though since they're what I grew up on. I want one
> that works (or close) to start with so I can learn slowly as glitches
> develop.
> --
> Ron -- CARGPB7 -- (Change hot to ice to email)
OK, I'm back on here now, I've been busy struggling with my own
little problem for about a week off and on, a WMS Space Odyssey that
appears to go through the whole reset sequence fine, until you get the
score reels back to zero and then it runs on forever. Of course it
couldn't be anything too easy to find, all the obvious stuff was
checking out fine, and we all know that wouldn't be any fun. Previous
owner gave up on this one, but he was a Gottlieb man.
Finally found it today, it was an index motor switch that visibly had
the points on it working up and down just fine, but after removing the
whole motor assembly for a real up close and personal tour through it I
noticed where the wires were soldered onto two adjoining blades that
somehow someway (?) they'd gotten pushed together way down in the
crowded stack of them where you couldn't readily see them from up top.
I spread them apart, game plays like a champ now. Looks like somebody's
Christmas present will arrive on time after all.
You guys that don't work on these are really missing out, they are
fixable in about 95% of the cases no matter how bad looking the machine
is, and they fix pretty darn cheap too. Don't let all that spaghetti
mess of stuff under there scare you.
.
AL
be in trouble mister!!
:-) AL
Happy Holidays Larry!!!
Gott Lieb?
I just thought of another possibility. Make sure that there isn't a
fish paper switch isolator missing or eskew on the motor stack that is
in question. You should be able to visually see this if something is
wrong when the proper switch is supposed to fire, because there will
more than likely be a nice little yellow spark fireworks show going on
down there.
Jim
Larry Wolfe
AL wrote:
> I'm tellin' Marty you're playing over here again tonight...you're gonna
> be in trouble mister!!
>
> :-) AL
>
> Happy Holidays Larry!!!
C'mon Al, give me a break...PLEASE don't tell Marty!!!!!.....Happy
HoliDAZE to U 2...
Larry
chibler
too! Looks like there is still lots of fun to have in EM land. But, and
I'm laughing hard here..., I have go help the family put up the
Christmas tree so I'll have to wait to enter the fray. I'll check in
later to see if all the fun's been had... :-)
Glad to see all of TeamEM checking in!
--
Happy Holidays!
Chris
Cliffy
AL wrote:
> Cam pin was on the other side of the zero credit switch contact.
>
> Please send all prizes to a worthy charity on my behalf.
>
> AL
>
> Cliffy wrote:
>> Ok here's one that's already been figured out and fixed but lets see who
>> can troubleshoot :)
>> Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
>> for me. Ready?
>>
>> 1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
>> Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
>> past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
>> again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
>>
>> Go! :)
>>
--
immark
As long as you're asking....
I have a Night Rider, was working fine...got the game room done and
moved it in...now in multi player, it doesn't go back to player 1. If
I am just playing single player, all works great.
Also have a 300 that won't go into multi player.
And finally Capt Fantastic, is registering 10 points (the 10 point
relay seems to be stuck on). The CF was a rebuild that I wasn't the
one that took it apart, so there could be more wrong as I keep going on
it.
Thanks guys..and Happy Holiday's to the EMers and all RGPers
Mark
Cliffy
Gott Lieb? wrote:
> I just reread your issue. I initially read it incorrectly. My vote is
> that your max credit switch was open at 0 and 1 credit on the wheel.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Gott Lieb? wrote:
>> Cliffy,
>>
>> It sounds like your zero position switch was adjusted incorrectly on
>> the credit unit.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Cliffy wrote:
>>> Ok here's one that's already been figured out and fixed but lets see who
>>> can troubleshoot :)
>>> Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
>>> for me. Ready?
>>>
>>> 1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
>>> Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
>>> past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
>>> again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
>>>
>>> Go! :)
Cliffy
track though.
Problem was that the credit wheel would max out but not come back down,
ie, not burn the credits off unless manually clicked down. Same problem,
just backwards :) Sorry, try again!
Cliffy wrote:
> Ok here's one that's already been figured out and fixed but lets see who
> can troubleshoot :)
> Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
> for me. Ready?
>
> 1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
> Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
> past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
> again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
>
> Go! :)
>
>
--
Gott Lieb?
credit wheel. Either that, or your whole credit wheel "sprocket" (for
lack of a correct term) was off by a couple of degrees.
Jim
Cliffy wrote:
> Hmmm. Ok. But now, why!? :)
>
> Gott Lieb? wrote:
> > I just reread your issue. I initially read it incorrectly. My vote is
> > that your max credit switch was open at 0 and 1 credit on the wheel.
> >
> > Jim
> --
PV
"AL" <A...@PinMonkeys.com> wrote in message
news:1166406591....@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PV
"AL" <A...@PinMonkeys.com> wrote in message
news:1166406591....@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Try this again...
Thanks Al,
I will go looking for the short and see what I can find
PV
Gott Lieb?
the pin placement on the credit wheel was so far off that once the max
credit switch was opened, another pin would get stuck behind the zero
credit switch.
Jim
Cliffy wrote:
> Sorry! Problem stated incorrectly (fading memory :) Jim is on the right
> track though.
>
> Problem was that the credit wheel would max out but not come back down,
> ie, not burn the credits off unless manually clicked down. Same problem,
> just backwards :) Sorry, try again!
>
alexf
missing actuators or fish paper. I do notice one of the contact gets a
heavy blue arcing though. Not sure why as it doesn't appear to be
coming into contact with anything it shouldn't. And it does it on the
working 20 point relay and the non-working ones. I even took the switch
stack off to make sure there wasn't a stray wire or screw in there.
That 20 point switch in the bottom cabinet has me really confused. Why
would it pulse twice and work fine for that one, but not for the 5, 30,
40, 50? Oh, well hopefully I can make enough sense out of the schematic
to understand what's goin on. Don't you hate going to bed without
figuring it out?
Thanks,
Alex
chibler
move one cog at a time. If they are gummed up, either they don't move
enough, or they allow moving more than one cog.
Other questions...
Does it start out with ball in play being 1 (or maybe it's "5 balls to
play")?
When does the actual "skip" of a ball occur?
Does it just play ball 4 then go straight to game over?
Those answers will help.
--
Chris Hibler
> > Ed- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
David B.
"Be Careful what you wish for....I can always bring Monte Carlo up
from the garage. :-)"
And...
"monte carlo.
In that case you'll need the worlds leading expert on motorized trip
relay banks."
Here's what's inside the Monte Carlo: http://tinyurl.com/y3rdm2
The trip banks are on the far side. It needed some adjustments and a
few things but thankfully, I didn't have to deal with the trip bank.
David B.
chibler
I had to remanufacture one of those on the KoD that I shopped. It was
broken/cracked. Made one from an old flipper link.
--
Chris Hibler
GOCATGO
heavy pitting...another promblem that can wreak havoc. I don't think I
have any more guesses!
Chris-Any problems with your Christmas tree lights not working, post
back and we'll see if Team EM can get it solved. : ) Happy Holidays
to all!
Cliffy
Cliffy
an experienced eye like Steve's to see it but there's your clue)
GOCATGO
probably going to get a "BZZZT"!
Steve Kulpa
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/temp/eggy-under.jpg
that is one long freakin' relay bank!
steve
---
Steve Kulpa (cargpb10)
Hermitage, TN
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/rgpidx.htm - Faces
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/pinball.htm - Pinball
chibler
Animated Santa's candle light wouldn't burn. He moved fine, but the
candle wouldn't light. Replaced bulb. Still negative function. Duh. He
has TWO connections to the light strand. I had only connected one. Duh.
The other one was for the candle light. Duh.
A twenty point relay? Damn those Williams EMs are odd! Just kidding.
When Clay mentions the impulse wheel, I think he's probably talking
about the wheel with cams that drive switch closures 5 times with each
motor cycle. On Gottliebs, that's always motor level A. I'm not
familiar at all with 60's Williams games but I think a checkout of the
equivalent function/logic is a good bet. The schematics will give you a
better idea of what is involved in scoring 5, 10, 20, 30, or 40 points.
Is there are relay for each of those point totals? I can envision a
circuit that would do that.
Happy Holidays!
--
Chris Hibler
> > > > Alex Fuchs- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
kirb
chibler wrote:
> Come on guys. We need to have some fun. Bring it on. Gottlieb
> preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
> fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
> withdrawals...
OK...here is one-
GTB fast draw. When you drop a few targets, lose a ball, and the game
goes to the next player-
game will add 500 points to other players while switching to the next
players. The problem is that targets are being reset, closes the 500+
bonus relay and that relay stays latched in while the players change.
When that is latched in the game will add points to the other players.
I think there is a flaw in the schematic where the unlatch is not in
the right place. I have been unable to isolate the timing circuits so
that the game will prevent that relay from staying sealed in while
going to the next player. I have an idea I need to try out by moving
the seal in to another spot behind the blocking contact.
I tried making the drop target switch gap a little larger, blocking
contact a little tighter, etc...
Some games do the above, some don't.
Kirb
Cliffy
--
chibler
relay bank doesn't even have a pivot point on it. You have to unscrew
the whole unit from the playfield. Ahhh. Fond memories ... :-)
--
Chris
Cliffy
chibler
very afraid...and then run...
--
Chris Hibler
Mark Salas
kirb wrote:
> GTB fast draw. When you drop a few targets, lose a ball, and the game
> goes to the next player-
>
> game will add 500 points to other players while switching to the next
> players. The problem is that targets are being reset, closes the 500+
> bonus relay and that relay stays latched in while the players change.
> When that is latched in the game will add points to the other players.
>
> I think there is a flaw in the schematic where the unlatch is not in
> the right place. I have been unable to isolate the timing circuits so
> that the game will prevent that relay from staying sealed in while
> going to the next player. I have an idea I need to try out by moving
> the seal in to another spot behind the blocking contact.
>
> I tried making the drop target switch gap a little larger, blocking
> contact a little tighter, etc...
>
> Some games do the above, some don't.
Kirb, aha!! that is what you meant by your post the other night. As you
know, my Fast Draw does this. Mike was upfront and it is not that big
of deal for me since I am the primary player. It adds the 500 points to
players 2, 3, and 4 even though I am typically playing a 1 player game.
I was going to challenge the EM guru's with this, but wasn't sure how
to word it. Thanks!!
chibler
thinking A+ + + + + + + ...
--
Chris
> A passion for pinball!http://www.passionforpinball.com- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
kirb
going to spend some more time with this soon....
kirb
chibler
Let me see if I understand.
Single player playing game.
Some drop targets down.
Ball drains.
Player unit advances to player 2. Adds 500 points to player 2 score.
Player unit advances to player 3. Adds 500 points to player 3 score.
Player unit advances to player 4. Adds 500 points to player 4 score.
Player unit advances to player 1, ball 2. No more points added.
Hmmm. This sounds like a fun one. Wish I had schematics but I only have
Quick Draw schematics. Although, those might work for this problem...
--
Chris Hibler
On Dec 17, 10:00 pm, "Mark Salas" <msa...@salascorp.com> wrote:
> kirb wrote:
> > GTB fast draw. When you drop a few targets, lose a ball, and the game
> > goes to the next player-
>
> > game will add 500 points to other players while switching to the next
> > players. The problem is that targets are being reset, closes the 500+
> > bonus relay and that relay stays latched in while the players change.
> > When that is latched in the game will add points to the other players.
>
> > I think there is a flaw in the schematic where the unlatch is not in
> > the right place. I have been unable to isolate the timing circuits so
> > that the game will prevent that relay from staying sealed in while
> > going to the next player. I have an idea I need to try out by moving
> > the seal in to another spot behind the blocking contact.
>
> > I tried making the drop target switch gap a little larger, blocking
> > contact a little tighter, etc...
>
> > Some games do the above, some don't.Kirb, aha!! that is what you meant by your post the other night. As you
> know, my Fast Draw does this. Mike was upfront and it is not that big
> of deal for me since I am the primary player. It adds the 500 points to
> players 2, 3, and 4 even though I am typically playing a 1 player game.
> I was going to challenge the EM guru's with this, but wasn't sure how
> to word it. Thanks!!- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Mark Salas
chibler wrote:
> Hmmm. That's a juicy one.
> Let me see if I understand.
> Single player playing game.
> Some drop targets down.
> Ball drains.
> Player unit advances to player 2. Adds 500 points to player 2 score.
> Player unit advances to player 3. Adds 500 points to player 3 score.
> Player unit advances to player 4. Adds 500 points to player 4 score.
> Player unit advances to player 1, ball 2. No more points added.
>
> Hmmm. This sounds like a fun one. Wish I had schematics but I only have
> Quick Draw schematics. Although, those might work for this problem...
Okay, Master Chris. You asked!!
Kirb and Mike Schudel will have to elaborate as I am the proud owner of
a Gottlieb Fast Draw for 4 days!!
I don't think it is always 500 points on my machine. I believe it is
100 points on mine. I am playing a single game, the ball drains, a
score is added to players 2,3,4 and ball 2 begins for the single player
(me).
All this EM talk and I am heading downstairs for a couple games of FD.
I will even spot you a hundred points :)
kirb
chibler wrote:
> Hmmm. That's a juicy one.
> Let me see if I understand.
> Single player playing game.
> Some drop targets down.
> Ball drains.
> Player unit advances to player 2. Adds 500 points to player 2 score.
> Player unit advances to player 3. Adds 500 points to player 3 score.
> Player unit advances to player 4. Adds 500 points to player 4 score.
> Player unit advances to player 1, ball 2. No more points added.
>
> Hmmm. This sounds like a fun one. Wish I had schematics but I only have
> Quick Draw schematics. Although, those might work for this problem...
I have both...I'll let you know if the schematic bits are the same.
The game does not care if you have 1,2,3,or4 players. It adds points
anyway. When you only play 1 player the game will add to everyone
because it moves around back to the same player. When you have more
players it adds most of the points to the next player. It all is based
on the player unit and where it has to go.
I have a feeling I know the solution, but I have to make sure the game
is wired correct to begin with.
Hardest EM problem I had was a Jungle Queen that was wired wrong from
the factory and half of the features would not work in some situations.
Very fun to fix that one finally.
Kirb
AL
question! :-)
Cliffy wrote:
> bzzzzzzt. wrong :)
>
> AL wrote:
> > Cam pin was on the other side of the zero credit switch contact.
> >
> > Please send all prizes to a worthy charity on my behalf.
AL
Great Picture! You must have an engine hoist in your shop, 'cause that
bottom board has to be the heaviest one on record. I've got a couple of
games to flip before I have space in the game room for it, but once
it's there, IT WILL BE THE FINAL TECHNICAL SHOWDOWN !
It's a project I started years ago. I'm pretty sure it was a container
queen that had been scavenged before I jumped at the opportunity to buy
it. I've got around 80 hours so far into a full cosmetic restoration
(humility aside, IT"S GORGEOUS) I know I've got trip bank issues, as
well as some backbox work. <joy>
I will try to document the reapair somehow, 'cause it's gonna be a
doozie. Stay Tuned.
AL
Happy Holidays!
Steve Charland
Quick Draw that did this and I never could get it to work correctly the
way it was wired. I figured out an easy hack for it if you have the same
problem and can't solve it. You'll never have that problem again and the
game still works correctly. Here's what you do (for Google).
1. Add a switch (normally closed) to the P relay (add player unit relay)
stack.
2. Unsolder the wire from the J relay (500 pt. & add bonus unit relay),
this will be the non black wire (should be slate-white).
3. Solder this wire to the switch you added.
4. Run a jumper from the other lug on the added switch back down to the
solder lug on the J relay.
5. You're done, have a beer and play your game. Now, when the add player
relay fires, it turns off the 500 point relay and you should never see
scores going where they shouldn't, even when the drop targets are
resetting.
-S (CARGPB1)
AL
Quite a few features feed the 500 point circuitry, but is sounds like
the problem is that they're not being disabled during the
reset/transition sequences one thing common to those is the contacts at
Motor 1C (Red-Wht and Yel-Blk). Check and see if they're gapped too
closely.
Happy Holidays!
AL
Kevin Wing
Mark Salas wrote:
> chibler wrote:
> > Hmmm. That's a juicy one.
> > Let me see if I understand.
> > Single player playing game.
> > Some drop targets down.
> > Ball drains.
> > Player unit advances to player 2. Adds 500 points to player 2 score.
> > Player unit advances to player 3. Adds 500 points to player 3 score.
> > Player unit advances to player 4. Adds 500 points to player 4 score.
> > Player unit advances to player 1, ball 2. No more points added.
> >
> > Hmmm. This sounds like a fun one. Wish I had schematics but I only have
> > Quick Draw schematics. Although, those might work for this problem...
>
> Okay, Master Chris. You asked!!
>
> Kirb and Mike Schudel will have to elaborate as I am the proud owner of
> a Gottlieb Fast Draw for 4 days!!
I'll take a guess at this one. The bonus countdown unit is either
making or breaking the zero position switch before it has finished
adding the score to player one. The player unit advances thru players
two, three and four on a single player game to get player one ball two.
(It advances in only one direction.) The points that would go to player
one for that last bonus count are sprinkled across players two thru
four as the player unit steps past them.
Kevin Wing
kirb
Mark Salas wrote:
> I don't think it is always 500 points on my machine. I believe it is
> 100 points on mine. I am playing a single game, the ball drains, a
> score is added to players 2,3,4 and ball 2 begins for the single player
> (me).
It's 100 points to 4 or 5 people total, so 100 points to each
player...maybe 200 to one of them.
While the 500+bonus relay is pulled in the player unit pulses to each
player and adds the score. That relay is pulled in for 5 pulses of the
score motor.
Kirb
kirb
Steve Charland wrote:
> As you've said Kirb, I've seen a lot of GTB's do this too. I had a
> Quick Draw that did this and I never could get it to work correctly the
> way it was wired. I figured out an easy hack for it if you have the same
> problem and can't solve it. You'll never have that problem again and the
> game still works correctly. Here's what you do (for Google).
>
> 1. Add a switch (normally closed) to the P relay (add player unit relay)
> stack.
> 2. Unsolder the wire from the J relay (500 pt. & add bonus unit relay),
> this will be the non black wire (should be slate-white).
> 3. Solder this wire to the switch you added.
> 4. Run a jumper from the other lug on the added switch back down to the
> solder lug on the J relay.
> 5. You're done, have a beer and play your game. Now, when the add player
> relay fires, it turns off the 500 point relay and you should never see
> scores going where they shouldn't, even when the drop targets are
> resetting.
>
Sweet! I am going to use this if I can't figure out a way without
adding a contact. I think I can fix this with the unlatch, but maybe
not.
Yours is very simple and I have the parts to do it.
Thanks again,
Kirb
kirb
AL wrote:
> Quite a few features feed the 500 point circuitry, but is sounds like
> the problem is that they're not being disabled during the
> reset/transition sequences
This is 100% the case. The only contacts being closed during a player
change is the drop targets. There is a contact to disable the 500+B
relay, but it seals in before the contact opens. There is enough slop
in the score motor to prevent this from going on.
I think the seal-in for the 500+B relay is not being blocked during
this period as well, so that is something I need to focus on. Steve's
solution is also a good one I might try.
>one thing common to those is the contacts at
> Motor 1C (Red-Wht and Yel-Blk). Check and see if they're gapped too
> closely.
I've tried all kinds of gapping/timing mods to every contact in that
circuit. Nothing has worked 100% or NOT-worked 100%. It's a race before
the blocking contact opens and it doesn't always happen.
Kirb
Mike Schudel
Also if you watch closely this is what you will see.
1. On single player (unplayed players 2-4 will each get 100 points)
2. On a 4 player game all the points go to the next player as the player
unit advances.
3. In ALL instances above, when the ball is in the shooter lane for the
next player, the lower 1,000 point bonus is lit. So in actuality, the extra
points are more than just the 100 dished out, but could be worth as much as
1,000 or 2,000 or even 3,000 depending on if the A-B-C lanes were completed
and counted in the bonus.
Above problem does not happen everytime or even if there are several drop
targets down. There is no pattern to which drop targets need to be down or
how many drop targets are down, as it doesn't happen all the time. The
problem DOES NOT occur if you all the drops are up.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/yxzavc
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/8ua2n
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
"Mark Salas" <msa...@salascorp.com> wrote in message
news:1166415792....@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Mark Salas
Self explanatory from the thread.
Here is what happens when I play (One player)
.... as FD goes from 1st to 2nd ball.
chibler
--
Chris
ldnayman
Here is what's happening - when the drop target banks reset, they are
scoring 500 points ON THE WAY UP. The reason you get the points scored
across the board is beacause the player unit is advancing.
I can't figure it out but I haven't tried to hard as of yet - my only
guess is there is something that is supposed to shut off the scoring
while the player unit is advancing and it isn't.
Any clues? Does anyone with one of these games NOT have this problem?
If you'll notice - it does NOT do this if you haven't knocked any drop
targets down, correct? This would be because no targets are down, so
none are scoring on the way up.
chibler
or two, then grab the ball, lift the PF, and put a sheet of paper
between those DT scoring contacts that are thought to be closing on the
way up. If you did this, and didn't see the problem, that would
validate your theory. Or, have you validated it some other way?
--
Chris Hibler
chibler
Then it adds 500, then it adds 3000, then it adds 100 to player 1's
score.
The it switches to player 2, adds 100,
switches to player 3, adds 100,
switches to player 4, adds 100,
switches back to player 1, now showing 4670.
I presume adding the 3000 was bonus count down.
Why did it add the first 500? Is that normal?
So, there are three (count 'em) three RGPer's with this same problem.
I almost can't wait to get home and check out the schematics (but they
are for QD).
--
Chris Hibler
AL
Humor me and slip a piece of card stock between those motor contacts at
1C. I really feel that this should stop the problem. It will also
temporarily disable any 500 point/bonus
scoring.
Happy Holidays!
AL
Del
spring, Gear or just dirty ???, Let us know !!
Pin-Del,
On Dec 17, 8:17 pm, Cliffy <crin...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ok here's one that's already been figured out and fixed but lets see who
> can troubleshoot :)
> Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
> for me. Ready?
>
> 1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
> Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
> past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
> again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
>
> Go! :)
>
>
>
>
>
> chibler wrote:
> > Come on guys. We need to have some fun. Bring it on. Gottlieb
> > preferably. AL, GOCATGO, kirb, Frenchy, TeamEM, Brian, let's have some
> > fun! I haven't worked an EM problem for about a week. I'm goin' through
> > withdrawals...
>
> > Just finished the mechanicals on a friends Gottlieb Egghead. Egghead
> > gets my vote for the absolute toughest EM to shop; at least that I've
> > encountered. It has a relay bank with about 23 latch relays containing
> > at least 4 switches (each one has to be perfect), about a dozen under
> > the playfield including one for each pop bumper, and a few others here
> > and there. If you don't gap the "X" and "O" standup targets correctly
> > (i.e. contacts touching that should not, then every time you hit a 50
> > point rollover, the "X" or "O" light will come on through a "sneek
> > circuit". Man, I sure hope that thing keeps working. It was a
> > boo-ooger.
>
> > Happy Holidays!
> > --
> > Chris Hibler--
> Cliffy - CARGPB2
> A passion for pinball!http://www.passionforpinball.com- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Carl Witthoft
"alexf" <pinca...@verizon.net> wrote:
> That 20 point switch in the bottom cabinet has me really confused. Why
> would it pulse twice and work fine for that one, but not for the 5, 30,
> 40, 50? Oh, well hopefully I can make enough sense out of the schematic
> to understand what's goin on. Don't you hate going to bed without
> figuring it out?
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
There are different relays for 20,30,40, and 50. Each one, when
energized, closes some switch so that electricity makes it to the score
motor stacks. My guess is one or more of those relays has a dirty or
badly gapped switch.
Carl Witthoft
Cliffy <cri...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ok here's one that's already been figured out and fixed but lets see who
> can troubleshoot :)
> Note that Steve Charland cannot play as he is the one who figured it out
> for me. Ready?
>
> 1967 Gottlieb King of Diamonds
> Credits would not add on unless I manually tripped the credit wheel up
> past 2 or higher. When played out of credits it would not add credits
> again unless manually tripped upwards again at least beyond 2.
>
> Go! :)
Someone bent the crap out of the zero-credit leaf switch.
kirb
ldnayman wrote:
> Mark- I've got the SAME damn problem on a Quick Draw 2 player.
>
> Here is what's happening - when the drop target banks reset, they are
> scoring 500 points ON THE WAY UP. The reason you get the points scored
> across the board is beacause the player unit is advancing.
>
> I can't figure it out but I haven't tried to hard as of yet - my only
> guess is there is something that is supposed to shut off the scoring
> while the player unit is advancing and it isn't.
>
> Any clues? Does anyone with one of these games NOT have this problem?
>
> If you'll notice - it does NOT do this if you haven't knocked any drop
> targets down, correct? This would be because no targets are down, so
> none are scoring on the way up.
This problem has been discussed many times and it seems that a lot of
FD and QD games suffer from this timing issue.
Here is what happens:
some drops are down, you drain (YOU HAVE TO HAVE DROPS DOWN)
the bouns is counted and the game kicks the ball out to the shooter
As the apron switch is crossed, the targets reset and SOMETIMES pulls
in the 500+ bonus relay.
The contact that prevents the 500+ bonus from closing is now open, but
the 500+bonus relay is sealed in because of how the game is wired. The
500+ bonus relay just "beat" the score motor contacts that block it.
Now the game goes through each player before going back to player 1-
the 500+ bonus relay is now scoring the 500 points before it unlatches
which is why it ends up on all the other player's scores.
Solution? add a contact like Steve suggests.
I am going to investigate other mods, but the above should work.
Bottom line- game is not designed correctly. Requires timing of
contacts to be dead-on to work and does not count in score motor slop.
Kirb
kirb
AL wrote:
> Kirb,
>
> Humor me and slip a piece of card stock between those motor contacts at
> 1C. I really feel that this should stop the problem. It will also
> temporarily disable any 500 point/bonus
> scoring.
I know what the problem is, but solving it with mimimal mods is what I
am trying to do.
I tried different gap / timing combos, but none worked. I finally
decided the game was wired wrong and did not count for slop in the
score motor as the game wore.
I have a few ideas, but I need time in the lab to see if they will
work. Another one just popped into my head...thinking reshape score
motor follower with a modified shape...hmmmm....
Kirb
AL
Rehaping to get in the cam notch earlier....or... a little dremel
action on the cam notch if you can't get an adequate bend. (kinda messy
though.)
Happy Holidays!
AL
kirb
chibler wrote:
> I presume adding the 3000 was bonus count down.
> Why did it add the first 500? Is that normal?
He must have sank a target before putting the ball in the outhole. The
500 was the normal scoring ( I assume) and the 3k was bonus being count
down. The problem does not happen until the ball rolls over to the
shooter after a trough eject.
> So, there are three (count 'em) three RGPer's with this same problem.
> I almost can't wait to get home and check out the schematics (but they
> are for QD).
QD is not different in this part of the schematic.
Kirb
Dave Pauk
a change?
Great stuff guys! It's good to know the EM "talent" are still hanging
around here :-)
Dave
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/dmp65
kirb
I hate youtube...it drags you into other areas and you end up watching
videos until your eyes want to fall out....
Cool vid I did see was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP_yPcJ15zc&mode=related&search=
NICE backglass on that GTB 300.
Kirb
Mike Schudel
> Any clues? Does anyone with one of these games NOT have this problem?
Of the two FD's I had, only 1 would do this, and that is the one Mark Salas
has now. The FD I still have does NOT do this...YET.
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/yxzavc
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/8ua2n
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
--
ldnayman
chibler wrote:
> Just to be sure of your hypothesis Levi, have you knocked down a target
> or two, then grab the ball, lift the PF, and put a sheet of paper
> between those DT scoring contacts that are thought to be closing on the
> way up. If you did this, and didn't see the problem, that would
> validate your theory. Or, have you validated it some other way?
> --
> Chris Hibler
No didn't have time - basically - the problem NEVER occured when no
drop targets were down, and did happen when some were down. Also -
there are only a few 500 point switches in the game - most of them are
the drop target down. Also I watched it happen with the playfield up,
and saw those drop target switches spark in between balls when the
targets reset. So I am almost certain that it IS the drop targets
resetting and setting off the 500 point switch, which is in turn
putting points on all the scores because the player unit is advancing
and opening the scoring to all 4 (or in my case 2) players.
kirb
AL wrote:
> Kirb,
>
> Rehaping to get in the cam notch earlier....or... a little dremel
> action on the cam notch if you can't get an adequate bend. (kinda messy
> though.)
I'm thinking of taking an old score motor folower and have it pick up
quicker than it otherise would. Think of the below:
from:
____/\_
to:
___/ \_
Should pick up on the notch sooner and keep the blocking contact open
longer.
Just a few things I am going to poke around with.
Kirb
Cliffy
I just hope theres enough material on the follower blade to allow it.
--
AL
the Reset/Player Advance circuitry. Check the contacts at motor 1C.
Slide cardstock in between to isolate them.
Mine is working fine if we need to take measurements.
Happy Holidays!
AL
chibler
allows the balls to squeeze out the left side before they are supposed
to, and the last ball sometimes springs back when the 2nd last ball is
credited.
You're right though. Nice BG!
--
Chris Hibler
AL
If the contact set in question is on the "C" level, then the follower
is dipping into notches in the cam disk not riding on the pins.
So if I'm thinking right (alert the radio and newspapers first)
Wouldn't a larger "bump" on the follower mean it would dive later and
rise out earlier, shortening and delaying the disable period, which is
exactly the opposite result you're after?
It would seem that a slightly shorter and "pointier" follower or larger
cam notches would be the answer ~ or am I still paying the price for
not paying attention to the expiration dates on that cheap Brandy?
Happy Holidays!
AL
kirb
AL wrote:
> Kirb,
>
> If the contact set in question is on the "C" level, then the follower
> is dipping into notches in the cam disk not riding on the pins.
>
> So if I'm thinking right (alert the radio and newspapers first)
> Wouldn't a larger "bump" on the follower mean it would dive later and
> rise out earlier, shortening and delaying the disable period, which is
> exactly the opposite result you're after?
The reverse is true- the contact is closed allowing the 500+B relay to
pull in when in the valley. When the motor turns, the follower rises up
out of the valley and opens a contact. That contact now is "blocking"
any pickup of the 500+B relay.
> It would seem that a slightly shorter and "pointier" follower or larger
> cam notches would be the answer ~ or am I still paying the price for
> not paying attention to the expiration dates on that cheap Brandy?
I hope it isn't Petri brandy (sold that stuff by the case when I worked
at a WI liquor store)
I have to dive back in the schematics since it has been a few weeks,
but I am almost sure the follower sits in a valley with it's contacts
closed under normal operation.
More information when I get to tinker.
Kirb
AL
I went and cracked mine open (the Quick Draw, not the Brandy). Looks
like you're dead on. I did notice my follower is not ______/\ but
more like _______/I so it would have a longer "attack" and quicker
"decay" Which would shift timing by delaying it slightly.
(Might be an opportunity for the Team EM engineers to come up with a
Gottlieb Timing Light)
Happy Holidays!
AL
Cliffy
KoD but it was supposed to be a short flat section after the peak and
then a dip down again. But hey, if yours works it must be right... right? :)
--
AL
Mine looked like it was ____/\ And it was bent slightly to delay the
timing.
If it looked like ____/"""\ It would not maintain the state as long
if on the "C' cam level. If it were on the "B", "D" or "E" pin levels,
it would perform exactly the opposite.
Your Schematic may have a timing chart in the lower left corner. See it
the duration of the closure is less than 15 degrees.
AL
chibler
So, are you saying that the game only gives you 4 balls to start with
sometimes, or are you saying it starts with 5 but skips one
occasionally. Either way, the issue is most probably with the "ball
count unit" or whatever Bally called it in that era. Make sure the unit
is clean, ungummed, and 100% mechanically functional.
--
Chris Hibler
On Dec 17, 9:13 pm, "chibler" <chib...@charter.net> wrote:
> I'd go with Jim's assessment. Those step-up/down units are designed to
> move one cog at a time. If they are gummed up, either they don't move
> enough, or they allow moving more than one cog.
>
> Other questions...
> Does it start out with ball in play being 1 (or maybe it's "5 balls to
> play")?
> When does the actual "skip" of a ball occur?
> Does it just play ball 4 then go straight to game over?
>
> Those answers will help.
> --
> Chris Hibler
>
> On Dec 17, 8:10 pm, "Gott Lieb?" <r...@papinball.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I believe that it could be one of two problems, provided that your ball
> > in play unit has been cleaned, lubed, and it not all gummed up. It's
> > either that your spring tension is too tight on the ball in play unit,
> > or the contact for the fifth ball on the "spider" is worn or missing.
>
> > Jim
>
> > Number400 wrote:
> > > How about a softball for an EM newbie.
>
> > > Bally Hi-Low Ace
>
> > > Most of the time, the game will only give you 4 balls. Every once in a
> > > while, 5. Everything else seems to work perfectly.
>
> > > Many thanks!
> > > Ed- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Steve Charland
why I made the hack. It's saved me many headaches and time on many GTB
games. If you do figure it out, I'd sure like to know what the problem
is and the correct solution. -S (CARGPB1)
chibler
Thanks for all the input on this one, as always.
I'm interested in knowing which other Gottlieb games you've seen
exhibit this symptom.
I had never heard of this problem before. Thanks!
--
Chris
> > Kirb- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Steve Charland
correction hack for this problem in another EM thread. -S (CARGPB1)
David B.
You're absolutely correct about the weight of that board. When I was
dragging the assembled cabinet (including the playfield glass) up the
stairs on a dolly, I thought it was growing roots on every stair!
Be sure to post photos, especially after completion. After all those
hours, you'll probably want to publish a book on it!
If you haven't played the Monte Carlo before, expect a tough player.
Getting 10k per ball in a game makes a good or better average score.
It's a good machine for trying to follow a strategy.
David B.
AL wrote:
> David,
>
> Great Picture! You must have an engine hoist in your shop, 'cause that
> bottom board has to be the heaviest one on record. I've got a couple of
> games to flip before I have space in the game room for it, but once
> it's there, IT WILL BE THE FINAL TECHNICAL SHOWDOWN !
>
> It's a project I started years ago. I'm pretty sure it was a container
> queen that had been scavenged before I jumped at the opportunity to buy
> it. I've got around 80 hours so far into a full cosmetic restoration
> (humility aside, IT"S GORGEOUS) I know I've got trip bank issues, as
> well as some backbox work. <joy>
>
> I will try to document the reapair somehow, 'cause it's gonna be a
> doozie. Stay Tuned.
>
> AL
>
> Happy Holidays!
kirb
ldnayman wrote:
> Mark- I've got the SAME damn problem on a Quick Draw 2 player.
>
> Here is what's happening - when the drop target banks reset, they are
> scoring 500 points ON THE WAY UP. The reason you get the points scored
> across the board is beacause the player unit is advancing.
OK, a little more detail on the problem....
What happens-
Random scores (100 or 1000) will be added to unused players during 1
player games or adds 400 to the next player in multiplayer games.
Sometimes it happens a lot, sometimes not so much.
When it happens-
1 to 4 players, does not matter
more chances for this to happen with more drops down (at least 1 has to
be down)
Ball rolls through apron over the trough switch back into the shooter
lane (see Mark's posted video)
Why it happens-
I can replicate this problem by holding the trough (under apron) switch
closed with some drops down. the game will ALWAYS add the random points
until the drops are reset. I need to look through the circuits to why
holding the trough helps keep the J relay pulled in. It doesn't make
sense for the schematic, but it may not be wired that way...more
metering ahead.
What you can do to help the problem-
OPEN the gap of the trough (under apron) switch. Make sure this switch
is only closed when the ball just rolls over the switch. The idea is to
have this switch closed for the shortest time possible. (BIG help)
OPEN the gap of motor 2D (yellow and blue wire) so that it does not
reset the drops sooner than it has to.
OPEN the gap of motor 1C (yellow/black and red/white wire) to block the
sealing of the J relay (500+B relay)
The above will cut down on the times this happens.
What else needs to be done-
Steve's solution is a good one, but I am working on a quick mod that
does not require adding switches or requires more than hand tools. More
on this after I get some more time to work on this.
Kirb
Kevin Wing
Does the outhole relay pull in before the bonus scoring is completed?
Does the vibration from the drop target banks resetting cause any
playfield switches to close? Try removing the glass and pounding the
playfield somewhat firmly with your hand in various places to see if a
switch is too close somewhere.
I agree that it is a design issue with this era of machines and a
dwell overlap will cause what you are describing.
Kevin Wing
AL
I have played Odds n' Evens and it Rocked ! I figured Monte Carlo
would be even more fun, 'cause the whole gang could play. I did get it
working (sort of) before the restoration. It had one fried coil that
alternated features and sometimes the player advance acted a bit goofy
and the dredded relay bank had a few issues, but it was 90% there. Then
I had a "friend" drop off an orphan Flash Gordon on my doorstep. I've
had more pins than room ever since. As soon as I can flip a couple of
games, it's coming in and..."Who's got a tough EM problem out
there?"...will never be the same.
As far as publishing books goes, it's interesting...done two ..learned
a lot. I'll leave the tech writing to Russ Jensen. If you're close to
50 (+/- 15 years) send me an e-mail. I've got 'em in .pdf format now
that they're OOP.
Happy Holidays!
AL