OG LOTR Shaker from 10.02 code
Andrew Barney
Hope to save some folks some time on this...
Adding a shaker to an old LOTR and updating the ROM will NOT make the
shaker kit work.
The new version of LOTR has a different PAL ship installed which
prevents the simple addition from working. You would need updated code
for the ROM and the PAL in order to make it work.
Sorry to break the news.
Andrew
Lloyd Olson
"Andrew Barney" <ssunite...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1779b715-f000-4d7d...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Sam
Damn, good thing I didn't jump the gun and buy a motor kit.
skbrothers
Could one not rig a shaker motor powered through the service outlet
with a simple timer circuit that would activate the shaker for 3-4
seconds each time the Balrog switch is hit?
The Balrog switch is only accessible when the Balrog is blocking the
ring ramp, so it wouldn't be exposed all the time and would look and
feel like the shaker was tied into the software when it really isn't.
When you hit the switch the Balrog screams and the game shakes
I don't profess to truly know what's required here, but it would seem
to me that something like the mod Dave Schulpius posted on his site
might offer some solution here...
Steve
skbrothers
http://home.roadrunner.com/~pinballpassion/shaker.html
Steve
pinhead72
their special edition with their shaker motor..Stern wasn't stupid
with this, they were going to make it with 'special' features'...not
all of them to be duplicated.
Congrats to those who got their games...
Jesse
kbliznick
Is there any text on the Pal chip Label?
Elvis was a whitestar game with an optional shaker, they may have
used the same Pal from that game.
martin
I have not looked at the schematics, but I suspect that the new power-
driver board may have a different I/O map. That could cause changes in
the ROM and the PAL. I don't think that the PAL is there for the
shaker.
kbliznick
One last question. Have you tried the new software in a non-LE LOTR
or are you just assuming it won't work because the PAL is different?
Andrew Barney
>
> - Show quoted text -
If I swap the PAL in my OG LOTR with an LE one my OG one shakes... old
pal = no go.
Andrew
Andrew Barney
It says LOTR L/E... that is all.
The PAL part number appears to be the same for LOTR and ELVIS.
Andrew
Andrew Barney
Tried it. No assumptions on this.
Andrew
Andrew Barney
>
> - Show quoted text -
Some further digging reveals several PAL CPU chips...
965-5023-00 Pal Chip - Gold Dot
965-6504-00 is a "blue dot" PAL
:-> Stern Schematics
Andrew
kbliznick
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK, That's good to know. Sounds like the whole purpose of the change
was to try and make it only available for the LE as opposed to
something needed for the SAM driver board.
Does anyone know if these PALs are encrypted? (there is a locking bit
on the chips but it has to be enabled when programmed) It appears
that the 2 previous versions of the PAL programming are:
the blue dot 965-6504-00 which is listed as being in every whitestar
game except 1.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=965%2D6504%2D00
(the text on the chip in this picture matches what is on my OG LOTR)
and for one game only (sharkey's shootout) the gold dot 965-5023-00
http://www.marcospecialties.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=965%2D5023%2D00
Probably not lucky enough to be the programming on the gold chip.
So, can the PAL be ordered from Stern. What happens when the chip
goes bad in an LE game, (and they do go bad)
Also any chance the new programming in the PAL is a simple I/O swap
with the other available drive transistor (the low current one at
Q28). Maybe check to see if that drive is pulsing when using the
10.02 ROM with the old PAL. If we are lucky and that's the case then
we would just need to make a small relay board with a higher current
driver driven off of it (or add a jumper to the I/O board)
I believe they had to leave the rest of 10.02 as backward compatible
to the OG LOTR otherwise they could be legally liable if the game code
was installed into an older game and the game caught fire and burned
down some place. They did call the code 10.02 and not start over with
a new revision #.
Andrew Barney
> (the text on the chip in this picture matches what is on my OG LOTR)
>
>
> Probably not lucky enough to be the programming on the gold chip.
>
> So, can the PAL be ordered from Stern. What happens when the chip
> goes bad in an LE game, (and they do go bad)
>
> Also any chance the new programming in the PAL is a simple I/O swap
> with the other available drive transistor (the low current one at
> Q28). Maybe check to see if that drive is pulsing when using the
> 10.02 ROM with the old PAL. If we are lucky and that's the case then
> we would just need to make a small relay board with a higher current
> driver driven off of it (or add a jumper to the I/O board)
>
> I believe they had to leave the rest of 10.02 as backward compatible
> to the OG LOTR otherwise they could be legally liable if the game code
> was installed into an older game and the game caught fire and burned
> down some place. They did call the code 10.02 and not start over with
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is a signature and a protection built into these chips -
PAL16V8D
Andrew
kbliznick
Any chance that you can check the output of Q28 with the new ROM/old
PAL combo. It's a longshot but worth looking at.
kbliznick
> There is a signature and a protection built into these chips -
> PAL16V8D
>
Yes, but they have to be enabled by the programmer. These chips can be
programmed without the protection.
Andrew Barney
>
> - Show quoted text -
Q28 is dead with the new ROM and old PAL.
Andrew
Andrew Barney
Seems like a long shot. I doubt they would have changed it and not
bother to make it secure...
Andrew
kbliznick
How did you check that? I think since there is no component connected
you would have to just run a continuity check to ground and when the
transistor pusles it is just connecting the output to ground. If you
check that pin looking for voltage none will show up.
Andrew Barney
>
> - Show quoted text -
By connecting the shaker motor to it. ;)
Andrew
kbliznick
Yeah that would do the trick if the signal was present
Andrew Barney
>
> - Show quoted text -
This needs some clarity... In game play Q28 is dead with the old PAL.
In test mode however the shaker operates.. So Q28 works (IE the
address decoding is not jacked up...) Some how the program figures out
what PAL is in the game and decides how to act from there.
Andrew
Frank-Rainer Grahl
I assume a manual is included. Could you post the Stern order number for the
Pal chip.
Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
-----------------------------------------------
www.pinballz.net - The #1 pinball forum for me
Andrew Barney
It is the original manual so far as I can tell. It is still inthe
game, which is where it has been requested to stay. The coil chart in
the game still shows the transistor as unused.
Andrew
pinghetto
Bar? Can I rewrite my eprom? Will my ferris wheels act as my ball
locks now? =)
Frank-Rainer Grahl
the shaker easily. This will make some people I know unhappy.
Best Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
-----------------------------------------------
www.pinballz.net - The #1 pinball forum for me
homebrood
> bummer. Thanks for checking. You can't order them here in Europe and you can't add
> the shaker easily. This will make some people I know unhappy.
>
> Best Regards
> Frank-Rainer Grahl
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:26:04 -0800 (PST), Andrew Barney wrote:
> >>On Dec 18, 5:18 am, "Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgr...@gmx.net> wrote:
> >>> Andrew,
>
> >>> I assume a manual is included. Could you post the Stern order number for the
> >>> Pal chip.
>
> >>> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:37:36 -0800 (PST), Andrew Barney wrote:
> >>> >>Hello everyone!
>
> >>> >>Hope to save some folks some time on this...
>
> >>> >>Adding a shaker to an old LOTR and updating the ROM will NOT make the
> >>> >>shaker kit work.
>
> >>> >>The new version of LOTR has a different PAL ship installed which
> >>> >>prevents the simple addition from working. You would need updated code
> >>> >>for the ROM and the PAL in order to make it work.
>
> >>> >>Sorry to break the news.
>
> >>> >>Andrew
>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Frank-Rainer Grahl
>
> >>> -----------------------------------------------
>
> >>It is the original manual so far as I can tell. It is still inthe
> >>game, which is where it has been requested to stay. The coil chart in
> >>the game still shows the transistor as unused.
>
> >>Andrew
>
> Regards
> Frank-Rainer Grahl
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> - Show quoted text -
Boo Whoo, the game is what it is and doesn't have a shaker. Lots of
games don't have a shaker...If they all did it would be lame...
Tom
kbliznick
> This needs some clarity... In game play Q28 is dead with the old PAL.
> In test mode however the shaker operates.. So Q28 works (IE the
> address decoding is not jacked up...) Some how the program figures out
> what PAL is in the game and decides how to act from there.
>
This is simple. The diagnostic software is already written into the
code and is already correctly addressing all of the coils, even the
unused ones. The new ROM's shaker calls are being sent out to an
address that doesn't exist and the new PAL is translating it back to
the correct existing address. So without the new PAL the shaker calls
are coming out of the ROM but going into thin air.
So... how do you build a new address decoder to replace the PAL? or
to at least interpret the misplaced address lines.
kbliznick
> In test mode however the shaker operates.. So Q28 works (IE the
> address decoding is not jacked up...) Some how the program figures out
> what PAL is in the game and decides how to act from there.
By the way is it Q12 or Q28 in the LE? If it's Q12 hook your shaker
back to that circuit and try it again.
Andrew Barney
Could be easier than this even... This PAL has a signature window. The
software could be doing a version check of some sort. From the spec
sheet:
"An electronic signature is provided in every GAL16V8 device. It
contains 64 bits of reprogrammable memory that can contain user
defined data. Some uses include user ID codes, revision numbers,
or inventory control. The signature data is always available to the
user independent of the state of the security cell."
Since it works in test I bet the addressing is set...
Andrew
Andrew Barney
Q12 is the correct transistor... based on the wiring in the LE game.
This is what I connected the shake to when testing. Having brain
issues with these transistor #'s.
J9-5
Andrew
mnpinball
Why not cut to the chase and contact him or Stern support and flat out
ask if it's possible and what if needed will make it happen ?
metallik
> Lyman does read rgp, I bet he is reading this and smiling.
> Why not cut to the chase and contact him or Stern support and flat out
> ask if it's possible and what if needed will make it happen ?
You don't understand hacker's minds. Most people here just want the
shaker to work, but for the hackers, the challenge of evading the
"protection" is where the fun is at :)
kbliznick
PAL. Why was it was installed?
I figure it was done for 1 of four reasons (or some combination there-
of)
#1 It was done because it made implementing the shaker code easier.
#2 It was done because it makes the shaker work better.
#3 It was done so that the code would be compatible with the SAM I/O
board. (this seems far-fetched as the new PAL works in the old I/O
board and from the schematics it appears the SAM I/O board is
backwards compatible anyway)
#4 It was done to prevent it from being installed in the non-LE
LOTR's. (Stern is in the business to sell Pinball Machines and not
shaker motors)
It wasn't done to make the shaker operation possible as the manuals
state that ELVIS has the old whitestar blue-dot PAL and it has a
shaker motor.
If it's reason #4 then Stern won't want to sell the PAL to those who
ask. However where does that leave the LE owners down the road when
the PAL fails in their games? What happens if Stern closes, then when
the PAL's go bad the owners of the LE's are SOL. (They'll just have to
put in the blue-dot PAL (available at some of the online retailers)
and have a working game but no shaker code)
What is Lyman's handle on RGP and I can email him direct?
Kris
pinghetto
their PAL fails? Get real. How many people out there have had this
problem with their home use only games?
mnpinball
You'll always have me Brian, I'll be your PAL ;)
kbliznick
Yes PAL chips have failed, Search RGP. At one time you had to buy
them directly from Stern for $40 adn there used to be 3 in the game (2
for the sound system and 1 for the CPU). It's not a big deal anymore
and you don't hear about it because you can buy them from Marco for
$6. Once they are unavailable then they become a problem again.
pinghetto
Eventually everything is going to become unavailable. Thats the
nature of pinball. If there is demand, someone will figure out how to
reproduce it or bypass it. Sometimes it just takes hard work and
dedication to turn a Yugo into a BMW. Good luck.
kbliznick
Here is a post from only 2 week ago with someone looking for the PAL
chip at U213 for their 2002 Stern Playboy
kbliznick
> nature of pinball. If there is demand, someone will figure out how to
> reproduce it or bypass it. Sometimes it just takes hard work and
> dedication to turn a Yugo into a BMW. Good luck.
Yep and that's what some of us are already trying to do, because there
is demand.
So the standard LOTR is a Yugo or a Hurricane as you compared it to
earlier??
seymour-shabow
> Seriously? Where does that leave the LE owners down the road when
> their PAL fails? Get real. How many people out there have had this
> problem with their home use only games?
>
Apparently a lot of people have this problem with Goldeneye games.
If that translates to LOTR or not who knows - electronics can and do
fail on HUO games (some argue more often because of more power
cycles..... large discussions in the video groups about this....)
-scott CARGPB#29
kbliznick
> Seriously? Where does that leave the LE owners down the road when
> their PAL fails? Get real. How many people out there have had this
> problem with their home use only games?
Here was the post I was looking for. Fried PAL on a TSPP only several
hours out of the box
pinghetto
Andrew Barney
> Tens of thousands of new Sterns sold and you found a thread.
>
>
>
> kbliznick wrote:
> > On Dec 18, 10:14 am, pinghetto <milla...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > > Seriously? Where does that leave the LE owners down the road when
> > > their PAL fails? Get real. How many people out there have had this
> > > problem with their home use only games?
>
> > Here was the post I was looking for. Fried PAL on a TSPP only several
> > hours out of the box
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Be nice. He is macking a valid point. The part needs to be available
even if on exchange. Far more than one of these have failed.
Andrew
kbliznick
> Tens of thousands of new Sterns sold and you found a thread.
Yep, and out of the Ten's of Thousands sold I'm sure this was not the
only one. Only a small percentage of new Stern owners read and post
here. I'm sure most would have reported the problem directly to Stern
and probably weren't able to diagnose it like this guy. Game doesn't
boot, send in the board.
Only point I am trying to prove is that it's not unheard of, so you
can't deny that it doesn't occur. This was the only NIB thread I
found but there are plenty more threads about bad PAL's further down
the road in ownership.
pinghetto
bring that up because you can't get LE code for your OG LOTR. Its not
fair to complain that Stern won't give out those chips. You don't even
know that they won't. Its not their fault you didn't buy a LE. Be
happy with what you have. And if you're not, sell yours for good money
and get an LE. Just don't complain that Stern won't give you a chip
that doesn't even belong in your game.
pinghetto
know that they aren't?
Mike MN
Lloyd Olson
"Mike MN" <mdeise...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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