cross-gendered players
Seth Rich
Let's change the subject away from hacking passwords for a sec.
Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
of the opposite gender? I've heard it said that some huge percentage of
female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
people think about this.
Seth / Blackbriar @ several places
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth I. Rich
Ass't Sysop, Math Center
Rabbits on walls, no problem.
Scott Goehring
>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing
>characters of the opposite gender?
What difference does it make?
>I've heard it said that some huge percentage of female players are,
>in fact, males in real life,
Everyone knows that half the females on muds are guys, and the other
half are Claire. Get with it.
>and that a fair number of male players are females who don't want to
>deal with getting hit on.
This wouldn't surprise me, after my time as a female wizard. In the
few months that I was a wizard I think I received four or five offers
to be taken out for dinner and at least one RL marriage proposal (I
won't attest to the seriousness of the proposer), not to mention
myriad attempt by various people to hit upon me. It was, um,
interesting.
>Do you think this is true?
Definitely. I now play female characters almost exclusively. My wife
plays both male and female characters (neither of us muds much
anymore, though; we have LIVES, thankyouverymuch).
>In what way would it matter to you if the male character you're
>talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that character?
Gender, VR or RL, only matters if you are (1) uptight about sexual
roles in society or (2) looking for sex. Although I do admit that one
of the fun things of playing a female is frustrating teenagers who
can't control their raging hormones.
--
Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
user.
-- T.C.B...@syse.salford.ac.uk
Seth Rich
Scott Goehring, quoting me:
>>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing
>>characters of the opposite gender?
>What difference does it make?
Well, it doesn't make any to -me- but I know that it does to quite
a large number of M* players. I've seen generally cool people be
ostracized when their RL gender was discovered. I've seen people's
interactions with their M* get changed drastically. I'm just
dropping out this question because I'm honestly curious what people
think.
>Gender, VR or RL, only matters if you are (1) uptight about sexual
>roles in society or (2) looking for sex. Although I do admit that one
>of the fun things of playing a female is frustrating teenagers who
>can't control their raging hormones.
Well, to some people, gender is as much a part of their person as their
name. And some people treat M* interaction seriously enough that it's
as if the cross-gendered player lied to them.
If you see nothing wrong with playing a woman (and I also don't see
anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
if asked about your RL gender?
Amnon Silverstein
I am interested in mudding but I have no Idea of where to start.
I have tried to read this newsgroup and I have looked at the archive sites
but I still don't know some basic stuff:
What do I need to get started ( a client program? How do I log on to a MUD?)?
Where do I get the above stuff?
I have a Sun and a NeXT but I would preffer to use the NeXT if possible,
both are on the net. I can hack C and Unix as well as the next guy. If some kind
soul could answer my questions I would greatly apreciate it. Please let me
know about mud etiquite as I am entirely naive about muds.
Thanks in advance for any help.
-Amnon (NeXT mail is ok) am...@milo.berkeley.edu
Keith C. Estanol
>
>Let's change the subject away from hacking passwords for a sec.
>
>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>people think about this.
>
>Seth / Blackbriar @ several places
I play stormette and no one ever hits on me. *sniff* ;(
Keith C. Estanol | st...@ucsd.edu
UCSD, Cognitive Science | st...@ucsd.bitnet
Time Traveller Wizard's Council,
Wanted: An office with a window, and a SPARCstation
------------------------------------------------------------
"You can choose from phantom fears or kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will!"
- Rush -
Jennifer S Broekman
>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
>of the opposite gender?
What could possibly be wrong with it? (The argument that a player who plays
opposite gender characters is 'misleading' other players is only true for
those who can't tell the player from the character.)
>I've heard it said that some huge percentage of
>female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
^^^^^^^
>of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
^^^^^^^
You mean *characters*. Players and their characters are *not* interchangeable.
This is very important. Re-read it. That's right. Some of us don't want to
be confused with the characters we play.
>Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>people think about this.
It's probably not true that a truly significant fraction of characters are
played by opposite gender players. It makes absolutely no difference to me.
People should learn to keep IC and OOC separate. While IC, interact with the
character. The player's gender/race/sexual orientation/physical ability has
absolutely nothing to do with the character's gender/race/sexual orientation/
physical ability, except in how believable the character may or may not be.
-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
A nice person is someone who never intends to insult.
A civilized person is someone who never insults without intent.
(paraphrased from somewhere)
***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
Ken Arromdee
>I play stormette and no one ever hits on me. *sniff* ;(
Mizue says, "stormette, blow me." <Freebird's>
>Wanted: An office with a window, and a SPARCstation
I thought that SPARCstations already came with windows....
--Jiro/Mizue, EVIL! snivelling crossdresser
--
"Am I still reading rec.games.mud? In MY day, flames were much better than
that. We didn't HAVE those nansie-pansie four letter words to swing around,
we dug up hard FACTS when we flamed, AND WE LIKED IT!"
-- Doran, on rec.games.mud
Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
INTERNET: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Scott Goehring
>Scott Goehring, quoting me:
>Well, it doesn't make any to -me- but I know that it does to quite a
>large number of M* players.
Large number of muds players are known for being weenies. :)
>I've seen generally cool people be ostracized when their RL gender
>was discovered. I've seen people's interactions with their M* get
>changed drastically.
I try to avoid such muds, and also avoid the types of players who let
such insignificant details bother them.
>Well, to some people, gender is as much a part of their person as
>their name. And some people treat M* interaction seriously enough
>that it's as if the cross-gendered player lied to them.
Yeah, well, I can't help this. Anybody who assumes that my mud
character bears any resemblance at all to myself is naive.
>If you see nothing wrong with playing a woman (and I also don't see
>anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
>if asked about your RL gender?
I usually evade questions about my real-life self that I don't feel
like answering. I don't particularily care to lie, but I don't feel
any qualms about being misleading.
Sonja Orlavski
|> Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
|> male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
|> character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
|> people think about this.
I think that it probably does matter to most people, unfortunately.
I don't see why it should. Gender in RL has little to do with physical sex,
and in VR it's not like there's any reason for gender to correlate with
physical sex (given that most people in VR don't correlate well in other
attributes with their RL physical traits).
Just our warped, hung up about sex society. *sigh*
-Devin
--
Devin Hooker (RP90) DoD #0034 de...@boulder.colorado.edu
"It's being both that's a bitch."
"I'm entirely TOO lucid right now."
"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.
Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..." -DW
Unknown Soldier
>>
>>Let's change the subject away from hacking passwords for a sec.
>>
>>Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
>>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>>people think about this.
>>
>>Seth / Blackbriar @ several places
>
>I play stormette and no one ever hits on me. *sniff* ;(
>
--
[]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[]
|| ~~ The Unknown Soldier ~~ + //|^|\\ + "Mistrust Authority, Promote ||
|| h3...@midway.uchicago.edu + <{-o-}> + Decentralization" - The H.E. ||
[]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[]
Keith C. Estanol
>In article <vgu91...@network.ucsd.edu> cg10...@icogsci1.ucsd.edu (Keith C. Estanol) writes:
>>In article <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
>>I play stormette and no one ever hits on me. *sniff* ;(
>
> Fucking homo!!!!!!!!!!!
As was said so succintly by Mizue:
"Blow me"
Jerk.
Just who in the nine hells are you anyways?
By the very beard of the Unnamed Shoggoth, I have never seen
a wretch like you!
>|| ~~ The Unknown Soldier ~~ + //|^|\\ + "Mistrust Authority, Promote ||
>|| h3...@midway.uchicago.edu + <{-o-}> + Decentralization" - The H.E. ||
Does your mommy know you're posting to Usenet?
I didn't think so.
Do you want me to mail her a sample of what you've been
reading?
And a BONUS question for you all:
When did they start letting mental health patients on the
internet?
The Whipping Boy
On gender-bending, my pride profession:
>What could possibly be wrong with it? (The argument that a player who plays
>opposite gender characters is 'misleading' other players is only true for
>those who can't tell the player from the character.)
And haven't we all heard the stereotype that "guys who play females only
do it so they can get more help." However, I *have* seen people purposefully
mislead a male character with a female char. One sent pictures of a
female friend of his to his character's mud-beau. Another had to spend
hours convincing his/her/its mud-husband that her love for him was
only MUD love, and he need not bother driving 800 miles to see her.
If things get too bad, I tell 'em straight out. It's a lot easier
for me to do on Darker Realms, where everyone and there dog knows,
than on Vincent's Hollow; only the wizards and a handful of players
know. But Lord, knows, playing a male is boring as heck. :-)
>You mean *characters*. Players and their characters are *not* interchangeable.
>This is very important. Re-read it. That's right. Some of us don't want to
>be confused with the characters we play.
Darn tootin'. I slam men every chance I get on Vincent's Hollow. I call
them hormonal assholes, tell them they're thinking with the wrong head,
et cetera. It's usually just bitching at my RL self. :)
>-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
Michelle the Belle (PMSed out)
"I'm not a Goddess, but I play one on Vincent's Hollow."
Michael M. Huang
on their player characters! Aren't muds suppose to be a role-playing game?
And playing the opposite gender is, IMHO, one of the greatest challenge
there is (and this does not mean -- for guys anyway -- to go up to every guy
character you see and start hitting on him). Playing a real female character
for role-playing's sake is hard (from a guy's point of view, of course :),
and I believe it's vice versa for female players playing male characters.
Though, I think it is harder usually for guys-to-gals, since our society
is structured in such a way to frown upon guys when they behave feminine
but not for the female portion of the population when they behave masculine
(not as much anyway :)
One of the greatest gender benders that I have met is, IMHO, Michelle from
Vincent's Hollow (ex-SunMUD, ex-Sherlock, etc etc). Her character is so
perfectly created that even though most of the people here at ISU have seen
him/her/it, we still refer to him/her/it as "she", even when we're using
his/her/its real name :)
Oh well, what an honor, eh? :)
-michael
Vincent's Hollow
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael "AJ" Ming-Yang Huang mic...@IASTATE.EDU
Project Vincent Student Development Group <m...@IASTATE.EDU>
Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa <mi...@IASTATE.EDU>
Jennifer S Broekman
>anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
>if asked about your RL gender?
Why on earth (or off it) would anyone need to know my RL gender?
BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
The Whipping Boy
>One of the greatest gender benders that I have met is, IMHO, Michelle from
>Vincent's Hollow (ex-SunMUD, ex-Sherlock, etc etc). Her character is so
>perfectly created that even though most of the people here at ISU have seen
>him/her/it, we still refer to him/her/it as "she", even when we're using
>his/her/its real name :)
*blush* Oh, there's Michael again, just trying to get me in bed again! :-)
Michael himself played the goddess Lucincia pretty well until his hormones
got the better of him and he renamed her to Pi, a male, on Sherlock Mud.
The whole scenario went something like this:
You are in Michelle's workroom, where she lives and idles.
There are no obvious exits.
> Pi arrives to the screams of a thousand babes.
Pi says: Hi, Michelle, it's me, Luci!
> ponder
You ponder the situation.
> say You changed your name?
Ok.
> Pi says: Yep. I got tired of not being able to chase babes. :)
roll
You roll your eyes.
> say Is it working?
Ok.
> Pi says: Don't know yet.
grin
You grin evilly.
> Pi says: Well, I'm off to chase some babes!
say Have fun.
Ok.
> wave pi
You wave at Pi.
> Pi leaves to the screams of a thousand babes.
shout I think Luci's brain has finally snapped!
Ok.
> Sherlock tells you: No shit!
Well, you get the idea. :-)
>Oh well, what an honor, eh? :)
An honor to be referred to as female, when you folks know better? Sure.
It just means that I'm doing something right. Besides, *someone* has to
be the Unofficial Guardian of the Female Characters, what with people like
you running around. Yeesh.
>-michael
> Vincent's Hollow
Michelle the Belle (Southern)
"I'm not a Goddess, but I play one one Vincent's Hollow."
Daniel Briggs
(Michael M. Huang) writes:
>WAIT! While we're on this subject.... Why do people use their real gender
>on their player characters! Aren't muds suppose to be a role-playing game?
>And playing the opposite gender is, IMHO, one of the greatest challenge
>there
Ummm, how about because not all of us are that into role playing? I hang
out on the MU*'s to talk to people, primarly. If a person wants to stay
strictly VR, that's OK and I don't push it. But given the choice, I'd
rather talk about RL. The phase "IRC with special effects" is actually
pretty close to how I view it.
--
| Daniel Briggs (dbr...@nrao.edu) | USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory | DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801 (505) 835-7391 |
Support the League for Programming Freedom (info from lea...@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Daniel Briggs
js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (jenneke) writes:
>In article <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
>
>BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
>someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
>upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
How about 'cause it helps form a mental picture of you? I MU* to make
friends, primarily, and it *is* convenient to have some sort of picture of
who I'm talking to. It isn't all that important, of course, and the
question ranks somewhat below what your favorite kind of music is. Still,
if we're trading bit of our biographies, I'd rather not have to dance
around *the* question. If a character makes it clear that they want to
remain exclusively VR, I don't push it. On the other hand, such a
character doesn't often give me much to base a friendship on. I make
friends with people, rarely with characters.
Gazer @ [Furry|Pendor|Holo]MUCK
Simon Chen
>of the opposite gender? I've heard it said that some huge percentage of
>female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
>of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
>Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>people think about this.
>
se IT's yet, so I buddy them too.) I've had experiences where a supposedly female players wanted me (male character) to kiss and hit on their male characters, but I refused because that's not my style.
Scott Goehring
>Ummm, how about because not all of us are that into role playing? I
>hang out on the MU*'s to talk to people, primarly. If a person wants
>to stay strictly VR, that's OK and I don't push it. But given the
>choice, I'd rather talk about RL. The phase "IRC with special
>effects" is actually pretty close to how I view it.
Um, I mostly hang out on MUDs to talk to people too. Nevertheless, I
still play female characters. I see no contradiction.
As an aside, what do people think of neuters (such as Frand) and
plurals (the chupchups). Do you really believe that the guy who plays
Frand (I forget his name) is a neuter space alien in real life, or
that Robert Earl is (or has been) multiple (whatever that means)? How
is this suspension of disbelief any different?
--
Intolerance is not a lion. It's a weasel.
-- Dean Kaflowitz (de...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com), talk.abortion
Scott Goehring
>If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
I would not be caught dead using my current VR name in real life.
Having people call me "Firefoot" in public was bad enough (got some
strange looks from a guy at Wendy's once).
Christopher R. Boggs
Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character. But I put
two conditions on it. One: They dont go around hitting on guys. I have seen a
few of my friends get involved in Mud-Relationships.....Only to learn after a
long time that there was a guy at the other end. This is after alot of personal
conversations had gone on. As a guy I know easy it is to talk about problems to
someone you think is a girl. They weren't happy campers when they found out the
truth. And Two: They don't run a female just so they can get extra help in
starting out a new character. This is under-handed and shows they don't wish to
put much work into thier character.
Before you flame me (because that's all this group is now) I want to say that
I have seen it from both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh
about it at thier term next to me. I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
make money and equip for thier real character.
Once as a joke, me and several fellow Immorts ran a group of newbie females
to see who could earn the most in donations. Well......I managed to land one of
the career Lvl 20 Mages in the game......It was funny to get all the donations
but got quite boring after awhile. That character never saw any more "action".
I did once run a female cleric.....I named her after a girl I knew in real
life and used her to help my main character.....Once I no longer needed her I
had her purged as well.
Basically......I'm a guy.....My real characters are guys....As it should be.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher R. Boggs, InterNet at gt9...@prism.gatech.edu,
"Go that way really fast and if something gets in your way TURN!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Specht
In a previous article, aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) says:
>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
>of the opposite gender? I've heard it said that some huge percentage of
>female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
>of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
>Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>people think about this.
I, unfortunately, find myself agreeing with you on all points. I have seen
(just in a small circle of MUSHers) all of the behaviour you have described,
and one you haven't: Changing gender to conceal identity. A MUSHer I know
(male) played a female character to keep an eye on his RL SO. The two
'females' got to be like sisters. :)
(And yes, I did _once_ have a female character, but I created it on the
spur of the moment because of an RL friend (female) who had a male
character on the MUSH. :)
Paul
Chester or Frobozz @ someplaces.
--
jds2 John D. Specht (Heads I win; Tails you lose.) Virtual reality is life!
ae358 Paul Bort (It ain't pretty being easy) Spring: Forces, Coiled again!
If you want to save an endangered species, hug a romantic.
Love is the triumph and pleasure and joy and light that makes life bearable.
Keith C. Estanol
>dbr...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>
>As an aside, what do people think of neuters (such as Frand) and
>plurals (the chupchups). Do you really believe that the guy who plays
>Frand (I forget his name) is a neuter space alien in real life, or
>that Robert Earl is (or has been) multiple (whatever that means)? How
Naughty tricks to do at my school:
1) Filling up a phone booth with chupchups.
2) Filling up a car with with chupchups.
3) Annual chupchup hunt.
So you see, there are lots of them here..
By the way, a chuphunt is very similar to a snipe hunt,
whatever that means.
Sprinkle smileys liberally where needed.
Ever dancw with a chupchup in the pale moonlight?
Michael K Patterson
the best on VH. There are a couple you couldn't probably even BEGIN to guess.
(hell, I still get a kick out of someone hitting on Mich... Kind of a funny
way of reminding us that computer geeks have hormones too)
But just a word to the wanna-be-wise: Don't start a relationship on a MUD. I
believe it's o.k. to talk to your SO, or whatever, through a MUD, but keep the
MUD and RL seperate. A game kiss means two characters have an attraction, a
woman cuddling up to you at night means a RL one. Don't confuse them. Realize
that there are women in the SAME TOWN as you (gasp!) who you KNOW are women.
And just generally don't let your hormones get away from you.
(BTW- The diffrenc between RolePlaying a girl IRL and on a MUD, is IRL you
actually are seen IRL. People can tell you aren't really a woman, and can
role-play for that. On a MUD, some people are out to meet people, while others
are out to play games... When they two collide, and don't know it, trouble
starts.)
ddd --mi...@iastate.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+ Michael Patterson --mi...@iastate.edu +
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
+ | | | | | | | | | Dirk the Daring of Vincent's hollow | | | | | | | | | +
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Ex-member of the VH Soap Opera-- I hope)
Oh, man did my editor mess up.. pardon any garbage.
Seth Rich
Jennifer S Broekman, quoting me:
>>If you see nothing wrong with playing a woman (and I also don't see
>>anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
>>if asked about your RL gender?
>Why on earth (or off it) would anyone need to know my RL gender?
People ask questions sometimes. I've made some very good RL friends on
M* systems, and there -does- come a point for me where I'm perfectly
willing to discuss my Real Life (such as it is). Nobody -needs- to know,
and probably most people asking are asking for no good reason. And I
don't see anything wrong with misleading or refusing to answer. What I
was asking is whether M* players feel that it's wrong to -lie- when asked
about RL.
Seth / Blackbriar @ various
John Valley
I see nothing wrong with cross-genderd characters. Its role-playing
plain and simple. I played a female char for awhile and it was the most
fun i have had mudding. Flirting with "male* chars and having them flirt
world.
By the way I am married to a female character run by a guy. I am going
to meet him at next years genCon. I knew she was a he when i married her/him
Interesting huh?
Destructor
a.k.a. John valley
garr...@nes.nersc.gov
Michael M. Huang
>>WAIT! While we're on this subject.... Why do people use their real gender
>>on their player characters! Aren't muds suppose to be a role-playing game?
>Well, on our mud, we have a wizard who is played by both a male and a
>--
>Darin Johnson
>djoh...@ucsd.edu
> "Only Nixon could go to China" -- Vulcan proverb
A what? :)
-michael
Vincent's Hollow
--
Michael M. Huang mic...@IAState.EDU
Iowa State University mi...@IAState.EDU
Ames, Iowa, U.S.A. m...@IAState.EDU
Sonja Orlavski
|> Ummm, how about because not all of us are that into role playing? I hang
|> out on the MU*'s to talk to people, primarly. If a person wants to stay
|> strictly VR, that's OK and I don't push it. But given the choice, I'd
|> rather talk about RL. The phase "IRC with special effects" is actually
|> pretty close to how I view it.
Um, my IRC persona is more like my MUD and role-playing characters
than my RL persona (implication: my RL persona is just another persona, like
all the others. *grin*)
Sonja Orlavski
|> (BTW- The diffrenc between RolePlaying a girl IRL and on a MUD, is IRL you
|> actually are seen IRL. People can tell you aren't really a woman, and can
What makes you so sure? Suffice it to say that I know several women
who you'd never suspect anything unusual about who've got XY genetics.
|> role-play for that. On a MUD, some people are out to meet people,
|> while others
|> are out to play games... When they two collide, and don't know it, trouble
|> starts.)
-Devin
Judy Anderson
>
>[cross gendering is OK as long as...]
> They don't run a female just so they can get extra help in starting
>out a new character. This is under-handed and shows they don't wish
>to put much work into thier character. Before you flame me (because
>that's all this group is now) I want to say that I have seen it from
>both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh about it at
>thier term next to me. I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
>make money and equip for thier real character.
Sigh. The mere fact that this state of affairs can exist makes me
really unhappy about how RL women's lib is going. Hmmm. Maybe it's
*men's lib* that's the problem here. After all, it's the men who are
being discriminated against: they don't get the extra hand up when
they're just starting out their characters. But... What if I run a
female character because I am a female IRL? Does that show that I
don't wish to put much work into my character? How insulting.
Although the one time I tried playing an LP cross gendered; everyone
was friendly and helpful to me... I never did go back and try the
control experiment of playing an LP as a female, so maybe they would
have been falling over themselves.
Since yduJ (my main social character) and Nosredna (my wizard
character) are both highly visible on LambdaMOO they aren't subject to
most of the weird social things that happen to female characters.
People think twice before hitting on someone who's answer might be
"@toad" instead of "no" :-)
Mostly I don't care what gender players present through their
characters. If they want to present as a neuter space alien, I'll
interact with them *on the mud* as a space alien... Or, more likely,
as an anonymous set of fingers on the keyboard which may produce
interesting text for me to read. Previous text that's been attached
to this tag (the VR name) may give me some expectations as to what
kind of text that set of fingers will produce, and it's through that
mechanism that I develop VR friendships. These can turn into IRL
friendships, if people are talking about IRL things, and then I
arrange to meet them IRL. I've probably met about 25 MOOers IRL.
I respect those who roleplay, whether it be just a random cross
gendering, or if their character has something to say for itself. I
don't try to pry out of them their IRL data (though I may be curious,
and carefully watching for slips). Most people just play themselves
though. LambdaMOO has a lot of cross-gendered second characters (yes,
I have one too; it's chic, you know), but since I don't find any
difference between talking to females and talking to males for the
things I'm interested in, I don't really notice.
Earlier in this thread someone said that he "hits on the females and
buddies with the males". This disturbs me. Why can you not be a
buddy with a female? I guess I'm just missing out totally. What is
it about my IRL reproductive equipment that should affect my brain and
my typing fingers, which are, after all, the only parts of me that are
involved with mudding?
Judy Anderson yclept yduJ yd...@lucid.com 'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge'
[ LambdaMOO is lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888 / 13.2.116.36 8888 ]
Join the League for Programming Freedom, lea...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Sonja Orlavski
|> Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character. But I put
|>two conditions on it. One: They dont go around hitting on guys. I have seen a
|>few of my friends get involved in Mud-Relationships.....Only to learn after a
|>long time that there was a guy at the other end. This is after alot of
|>personal conversations had gone on. As a guy I know easy it is to talk
|>about problems to someone you think is a girl. They weren't happy campers
|>when they found out the truth.
Hmm.
I'm not even sure where to start. It sounds to me like the people
that had these relationship problems were a little too hung up on sex. If
you've found someone that you can comfortably talk to, why does it matter
what their physical sex is? In fact, it sounds like you're a little hung
up there yourself. "My real characters are guys....As it should be." Ha.
My real characters are female. I can't seem to do a convincing male role
playing character (and I play GURPS weekly, as well as MUDs and IRC and
such).
I've also been on the other side, of getting friendly with someone
(at his insistance, I might point out), and getting dumped royally when I
explained to him that my physical sex was male. You think I enjoyed that?
No. I thought maybe, just maybe, I had found a comfortable friend. I was
way wrong. As an aside, I don't consider representing my gender in VR as
female to be misleading, because my gender in RL is also female. But some
people (it seems, the same people who can't separate VR gender and RL sex)
can't separate gender and sex. Oh well.
Jean Marie Diaz
From: aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich)
Date: Thu, 21 May 92 19:26:55 GMT
If you see nothing wrong with playing a woman (and I also don't see
anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
if asked about your RL gender?
I think the correct response to 'but are you a girl REALLY?' is 'none of
your business'.
I don't play mu*s to acquire RL friends, I have those. I play mu*s to
roleplay. The fact that I mostly don't play cross-gender characters is
a tribute to the difficulty I have creating a male character that I find
believable. :-)
AMBAR
Sonja Orlavski
[lots of good comments deleted]
|> What is
|> it about my IRL reproductive equipment that should affect my brain and
|> my typing fingers, which are, after all, the only parts of me that are
|> involved with mudding?
Thank you for saying what I'd been trying to say (not very well, I
might add) so accurately and succinctly.
Keith Hearn
>
>Let's change the subject away from hacking passwords for a sec.
>
>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
>of the opposite gender? I've heard it said that some huge percentage of
>female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
>of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
>Do you think this is true? In what way would it matter to you if the
>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>people think about this.
>
>Seth / Blackbriar @ several places
Well, I play a Bronzerider on PernMUSH, and I know of at least
one female character there that is played by a male player. I flirt
with her just as much as I do with females that I know are being run
by females. I try to avoid thinking about the player and instead
concetrate on the character that I'm interacting with.
I'd prolly think twice before it got to tinysex, tho. Of course, I
think twice before it gets to tinysex with a female being run by a
female. Then I think a third time, and if I still want to have
tinysex, I hit myself on the forehead with a hammer until the
feeling goes away. :) I prefer to keep my sex RL. I'll poleplay up
to a point, then i prefer to drop out of character and just assume
that something happened.
So I guess the sex of the player just isn't as important to me as
the perceived sex of the character. If the female character was
obviously being run my a male, it'd bother me, but in this case, she
is well played, so I don't mind.
As for females playing males, I haven't interacted much with any
male characters that I know are run by female polayers, so I can't
really comment (What? somone refraining from comment just because he
doesn't know what he's commenting about?? What is this newsfroup
coming to?).
A'lon
Bronze Zienth's rider
Ista Weyr
PernMUSH
--
Keith Hearn \ Lots of impossible things happen
khe...@bertha.pyramid.com \ When you travel through time.
Pyramid Technology Corporation \ Dr. Who (The War Games)
(408) 428-7304 or (510) 830-1613 \
Peter Couvares
>[...] "IRC with special effects" is actually pretty close to how I view it.
ick...
Rachel J. Perkins
natasha on LambdaMOO!
--
-just give me what for,
rachel perkins = rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu
"Chastity..the most unnatural of all the sexual perversions...."
-Aldous Huxley
Michael M. Huang
[some stuff deleted]
>feeling goes away. :) I prefer to keep my sex RL. I'll poleplay up
>to a point, then i prefer to drop out of character and just assume
>that something happened.
Okay. So my mind is in the trash. But, poleplay? What's this?
A virtual freudian slip? :)
Darin Johnson
a male and a female character in real life. Lots of possibility for
confusion all around :-)
Mud Admin
>I would not be caught dead using my current VR name in real life.
>Having people call me "Firefoot" in public was bad enough (got some
>strange looks from a guy at Wendy's once).
I'm proud to say that I have never called myself by my Mud name,
although I have had some RL acquaintances call me Sulam. My
friends all know better. Let's lead a cheer for folks with
lives, eh? ;-)
Sulam (who could be called Sulam in public with slightly less
embarassing consequences, unless one spoke Hebrew...)
--
| This article is the individual opinion of a TMI Admin.
| The Mud Institute: dogstar.colorado.edu (128.138.248.32) 5555
| Ftp: "" "" 5554
| TMI serves as an information and development center for LPmuds.
Mud Admin
>As an aside, what do people think of neuters (such as Frand) and
>plurals (the chupchups). Do you really believe that the guy who plays
>Frand (I forget his name) is a neuter space alien in real life, or
>that Robert Earl is (or has been) multiple (whatever that means)? How
>is this suspension of disbelief any different?
One funny thing about TMI is that we have 5 genders available for
you to choose from. You can be male, female, neuter, neutral, or
a hermaphrodite (the herm. is really just a plural).
The gender neutral pronouns are a bit strange, though. ;)
Sulam (male)
arlingto
cross-cultural character. I can hardly ever remember anyone describing
their racial characteristics. Do people playing MUDs automatically
assume all humanoid characters they run into are of their own race or
nationality? (Like in your mind's eye, are all the player characters
you run into white? <If that happens to be your own racial makeup> )
Is anyone playing a cross-cultural character? Do you have to
explicitly tell people that so they don't make default assumptions?
Now, that I think is an interesting topic.
Dave
--
"Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage. Let me be
considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens and my associates in
everything I say and do. Let me do right to all, and wrong no man."-Doc Savage
Jeffrey G. Boser
sex only, cross-gendering can be fun as hell. Mud sex is limited only
by your imagination.
.....jeff
Mud Admin
> Devin somethingorother writes:
>My real characters are female. I can't seem to do a convincing male role
>playing character (and I play GURPS weekly, as well as MUDs and IRC and
>such).
What in the world does this mean? Is there some neato way to play a
male character that is somehow more manly than other ways?
Sulam puts on his musk cologne.
Sulam asks you, "Hey baby, wanna fornicate?"
Sulam smiles like a man.
Eighmi
>goeh...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>>I would not be caught dead using my current VR name in real life.
>>Having people call me "Firefoot" in public was bad enough (got some
>>strange looks from a guy at Wendy's once).
>I'm proud to say that I have never called myself by my Mud name,
>although I have had some RL acquaintances call me Sulam. My
>friends all know better. Let's lead a cheer for folks with
>lives, eh? ;-)
okay so you don't use your mud name in RL, but what if your mud name
was your RL nickname long before you touched a MU*? Does this mean
you would have no lives? Gee, I think that last statement you made
is a bit harsh maybe?
Eighmi
Michael M. Huang
>I'm proud to say that I have never called myself by my Mud name,
>although I have had some RL acquaintances call me Sulam. My
>friends all know better. Let's lead a cheer for folks with
>lives, eh? ;-)
Wait. What does that leave the few of use who actually use our real name
in muds (crazy, eh? :)
Mud Admin
Goodness, a bit touchy today, aren't we? Just in case you missed
it the first time, I'll point out that I attached a smiley at the
end of that post. Smiley's usually indicate that some sort of
humour is involved, ie, the post isn't to be taken completely
seriously.
Sulam
Jeffrey Deutsch
>
>>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing
>>characters of the opposite gender?
>
>
Speak for yourself, dude. I don't get along well with men
socially (although of course I can work with them) and *all* (yes, I
mean that literally) of my friends are women. It's not the result of
an objective comparison of the sexes (although I have noticed that
women tend to be much less violent than men), but is a highly subjective
matter. I would be *very* upset if I became close friends with a
female character and then found out that she was played by a man.
>>I've heard it said that some huge percentage of female players are,
>>in fact, males in real life,
>
>Everyone knows that half the females on muds are guys, and the other
>half are Claire. Get with it.
>
Who's Claire, anyway???
>>and that a fair number of male players are females who don't want to
>>deal with getting hit on.
>
>This wouldn't surprise me, after my time as a female wizard. In the
>few months that I was a wizard I think I received four or five offers
>to be taken out for dinner and at least one RL marriage proposal (I
>won't attest to the seriousness of the proposer), not to mention
>myriad attempt by various people to hit upon me. It was, um,
>interesting.
>
Yes, that is a serious problem. One female on Mystic (who I
*think* is also female in RL) told me that if she killed every male
character who acted fresh to her (and she was in a position to do it,
too), half the male population of Mystic would be dead.
.
.
.
>>In what way would it matter to you if the male character you're
>>talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that character?
>
>Gender, VR or RL, only matters if you are (1) uptight about sexual
>roles in society or (2) looking for sex. Although I do admit that one
>of the fun things of playing a female is frustrating teenagers who
>can't control their raging hormones.
Where do you get off assuming such knowledge about what *EVERY*
guy has in mind??? Like I said above, I make friends exclusively with
women. *FRIENDS*-not only SO's. I'm sure going to this extreme is
probably unusual, but people *do* tend to make friends more easily
with the opposite sex than the same sex.
So don't get on your high horse and tell everyone else that
if *they* find a certain distinction to be important that it must be
for some bad reason. There's a word for that-it's called "argument by
intimidation"-sorta like the Emperor's New Clothes: if you don't see
it the way I do you must be a (pick your pejorative). It's arrogant,
rude-and also just plain wrong.
>--
>Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
>user.
> -- T.C.B...@syse.salford.ac.uk
Jeff Deutsch
--
"A top-secret government study indicates that we wouldn't be any worse
off if we let the economists predict the weather and the meteorologists
predict the economy."
-Paul Harwitz, _Wall Street Journal_, March 19, 1980
Jeffrey Deutsch
>aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
>
>
>>Well, it doesn't make any to -me- but I know that it does to quite a
>>large number of M* players.
>
>Large number of muds players are known for being weenies. :)
>
I wonder what they must think of you.
>>I've seen generally cool people be ostracized when their RL gender
>>was discovered. I've seen people's interactions with their M* get
>>changed drastically.
>
>I try to avoid such muds, and also avoid the types of players who let
>such insignificant details bother them.
>
"Insignificant" is a *SUBJECTIVE* term. Something is only
significant or insignificant *to a particular person or group of
people*. There is no such thing as "objective" insignificance or
significance. Perhaps details like gender are insignificant *to YOU*.
Well and good. Just don't try to instruct the world in what is or is not
significant *to them*.
>>Well, to some people, gender is as much a part of their person as
>>their name. And some people treat M* interaction seriously enough
>>that it's as if the cross-gendered player lied to them.
>
>Yeah, well, I can't help this. Anybody who assumes that my mud
>character bears any resemblance at all to myself is naive.
>
Wanting to have a very different persona on MU*s from the
persona one has in RL is understandable and common. However, there
are also many of us, myself included, who believe in being completely
ourselves on MU*s. There is nothing naive in mistaking the former for
the latter.
>>If you see nothing wrong with playing a woman (and I also don't see
>>anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
>>if asked about your RL gender?
>
>I usually evade questions about my real-life self that I don't feel
>like answering. I don't particularily care to lie, but I don't feel
>any qualms about being misleading.
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
>
>>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
>>of the opposite gender?
>
>opposite gender characters is 'misleading' other players is only true for
>those who can't tell the player from the character.)
>
Or for those of us who are trying to make RL friendships on
MU*s (and yes, it does happen). I, for one, will only befriend women.
Period. No, it's not an objective criticism of men. No, I'm not
interested in discussing "why".
>***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
>|> male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>|> people think about this.
>
>I don't see why it should. Gender in RL has little to do with physical sex,
>and in VR it's not like there's any reason for gender to correlate with
>physical sex (given that most people in VR don't correlate well in other
>attributes with their RL physical traits).
>
The fact that people's actual physical characteristics don't
correlate with those of their characters may be *your* reason for
not caring much about the "RL genders" of MU* characters. The fact is,
though, others, including myself, don't find that relevant, and it's
not your place to say what "should" or "shouldn't" matter to others.
> Just our warped, hung up about sex society. *sigh*
>
Don't pass judgements about everyone else.
Sure, some people are "hung up about sex". Some others aren't.
And there are possibly many reasons having nothing to do with sex for
people to care about what "RL gender" another MU* character is. For
example, I, personally, will only befriend women. I don't make friends
with men. Period. (And yes, you *can* build RL friendships from MU*
encounters).
> -Devin
>
Jeff Deutsch
>--
>Devin Hooker (RP90) DoD #0034 de...@boulder.colorado.edu
>"It's being both that's a bitch."
>"I'm entirely TOO lucid right now."
>"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.
> Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..." -DW
AU...@asuacad.bitnet
Silverstein) says:
>Hi folks,
> I am interested in mudding but I have no Idea of where to start.
Hmmm, well you should go read the FAQ documents usually located at the
the top of this newsgroup. THose documents usually can answer any
beginner question that you might have. Including stupid ones.
>What do I need to get started ( a client program? How do I log on to a MUD?)?
Naw you dont need a "client' program to play a mud (because their are no
graphics). You just need to telnet into the mud.
>kin
>soul could answer my questions I would greatly apreciate it. Please let me
>know about mud etiquite as I am entirely naive about muds.
Yeah, just read the FAQ documents. they even tell you HOW you should behave
on muds. (my theory on muds is "he with the most, wins).
>Thanks in advance for any help.
No problem.
Brad Vender
>
>[]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[]
>|| ~~ The Unknown Soldier ~~ + //|^|\\ + "Mistrust Authority, Promote ||
>|| h3...@midway.uchicago.edu + <{-o-}> + Decentralization" - The H.E. ||
>[]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[]
Fucking homophobe!!!!!!!!!!
You know, this is one of the reasons I prefer to play neuter/androgenous/
hermaphrodite/alien characters. It annoys me to deal with the
ideas people bring with from real life reguarding gender/orientation.
Anyone who's scared of the thought that the next character you meet
may not be any indication of the player's identity needs therapy.
My character on TimeTraveller was a cannibalistic mad man who
got changed (by surgery--biosculpted) into a monster, quite
opposite of my RL condition. I see no value in having my
characters anything at all like my physical self.
Going beyond cross-gender characters, how about characters with
differing sexual orientations from the player? Perhaps we
should be more cautious when asking the computer geek
if he's ever kissed a girl before... ;)
jason steiner
: In article <GOEHRING.92...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> goeh...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
: >aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
: >
: >>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing
: >>characters of the opposite gender?
: >
: >What difference does it make?
: >
: Speak for yourself, dude. I don't get along well with men
: socially (although of course I can work with them) and *all* (yes, I
: mean that literally) of my friends are women. It's not the result of
: an objective comparison of the sexes (although I have noticed that
: women tend to be much less violent than men), but is a highly subjective
: matter. I would be *very* upset if I became close friends with a
: female character and then found out that she was played by a man.
you'd be very upset? why? if this really happened you'd have just found
a -man- who's obviously the type of person you could be friends with.
if you really aren't interested only in sex (as you state later on)
then the aquisition of a friend should be no reason to "be *very* upset".
it sounds like you just don't want to have your misconceptions about
gender blown away.
:
: Jeff Deutsch
:
: --
: "A top-secret government study indicates that we wouldn't be any worse
: off if we let the economists predict the weather and the meteorologists
: predict the economy."
: -Paul Harwitz, _Wall Street Journal_, March 19, 1980
--
would you could you should you cross thru if i could wipe my eyes a blinding
compromise another pinky shave enlightens the brow now cow to die another day
if you prefer outside be blessed sir ostracize better bastard now forgotten
well instead of favored son of hell in hopes to open eyes - scaterd few, U
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` ste...@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
Empedocles the Ash Ock
Subject: Re: cross-gendered players
In article <33...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> djoh...@ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes:
>(Urk, I meant to say:) On our mud, there is a wizard played by both
>a male and a female character in real life. Lots of possibility for
>confusion all around :-)
Um, I can only assume you're talking about me (Codrus is the only other
Paratwa wizard I know, and he's well-known here). Small misconception to
be cleared up: whatever may be the case in VR, I'm afraid I am as bound by
RL as anyone else; there is only one set of hands tapping the keyboard at
my end. I am not played by two RL people, just one.
Basically, I think that knowing a player's RL sex isn't so important
(_pace_, Jeff Deutch, let me finish). More accurately, it is up to you
whether you consider it so, but if you do, that does not obligate others to
as well. That is, if it's important to you to know the sex of your
friends, then be sure to ascertain it somehow. You have no right to assume
the sex of *anyone* based only on @desc/@sex/whatever. If someone tells
you "I'm female RL" and turns out to be male, then you have a right to be
upset at the lie, but @descs were never meant to be exact representations
of RL. I have made some friends VR who are such that I'd be...
disappointed if I found that they were not the sex they told me, and
perhaps a little upset, but not much, and mostly at myself: I have no
right to make any assumptions.
My character's @desc makes this point a bit clearer than most. My
character (for those who haven't read the books(*)) has two bodies, one
male and one female. As such (and here I differ from the books), my @desc
says, "... Disliking being neuter, Empedocles usually picks one sex or
another to be." I switch off, staying each sex for a few weeks, until I
get bored with it. So people *know* that they have a 50-50 chance of
talking to me when I'm lying about my sex.
When questioned, I'll tell if someone really wants to know (though I ask
that they keep it under their hats). I try to avoid answering, since I
like the mystery of keeping people wondering (not deceit, simply mystery).
Whatever. This is an interesting topic, and there's lots of room for
widely disparate opinions, as we're seeing.
(*) The books: _Liege-Killer_, _Ash Ock_, and _The Paratwa_, by
Christopher Hinz.
>--
>Darin Johnson
>djoh...@ucsd.edu
> "Only Nixon could go to China" -- Vulcan proverb
Empedocles@TinyTIM, emped...@foof.dorm.clarkson.edu
Jeffrey Deutsch
>
>In a previous article, aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) says:
>
>>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing characters
>>female players are, in fact, males in real life, and that a fair number
>>of male players are females who don't want to deal with getting hit on.
>>male character you're talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that
>>character? And on and on and on... I'm trying to get a feel of what
>>people think about this.
>
>(just in a small circle of MUSHers) all of the behaviour you have described,
>and one you haven't: Changing gender to conceal identity. A MUSHer I know
>(male) played a female character to keep an eye on his RL SO. The two
>'females' got to be like sisters. :)
>
In fact, it's a rather common strategy...log on another
character, and have him/her/it socialize with everybody-to try to
find out what everyone else *really* thinks of one's main character.
>Paul
>Chester or Frobozz @ someplaces.
Jeff Deutsch (Jeffrey@Darker Realms, Mystic and Viking)
>--
>jds2 John D. Specht (Heads I win; Tails you lose.) Virtual reality is life!
>ae358 Paul Bort (It ain't pretty being easy) Spring: Forces, Coiled again!
>If you want to save an endangered species, hug a romantic.
>Love is the triumph and pleasure and joy and light that makes life bearable.
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
>aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
>>anything wrong with playing a woman), do you think it's wrong to lie
>>if asked about your RL gender?
>
>
>BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
>someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
>upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
>
Well, that's your privilege, and that's just fine. There's
nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be what you're not in a
fantasy environment like this. However, you ought to keep in mind
that there are others out there who believe in being themselves, too,
and know that there are others who also believe in being themselves-
and thus have reasonable cause to believe that there is some
resemblance between a character and the person playing him/her, even
if sometimes that belief is not correct.
Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller". If
(shall I say, *when*) people make mistakes in this regard, please
act toward them somewhat more kindly than you say you are doing.
They have simply made a mistake in your particular case, an unavoidable
mistake caused by having to act before one has all of the necessary
information. This kind of thing happnes every day in all sorts of
situations. Just let them know politely that no, you and your character
should not be equated, etc., etc., etc. Thanks in advance from all
of us "friendly folk".
>-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
>
Jeff Deutsch (Jeffrey@Darker Realms, Mystic and Viking)
>A nice person is someone who never intends to insult.
>A civilized person is someone who never insults without intent.
>(paraphrased from somewhere)
>***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
Jeffrey Deutsch
>still play female characters. I see no contradiction.
>
Oh by the way, just so you know, I'm *not* attacking the
practice of cross-gendering. Go ahead and do whatever floats your boat
that doesn't infringe on my right to do the same. Just don't be
surprised or upset when I 1) react to you according to your character's
gender and 2) change my mind about you once I find out what your RL
gender is.
>As an aside, what do people think of neuters (such as Frand) and
>plurals (the chupchups). Do you really believe that the guy who plays
>Frand (I forget his name) is a neuter space alien in real life, or
>that Robert Earl is (or has been) multiple (whatever that means)? How
>is this suspension of disbelief any different?
I don't even know what a "multiple" character even *is*.
Would someone please clue me in?
As for neuters, I don't assume anything, since after all
"neutrality" is not supposed to simulate anything in RL anyway. I
suspend judgement until I find out the person's RL gender.
>--
>Intolerance is not a lion. It's a weasel.
> -- Dean Kaflowitz (de...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com), talk.abortion
Jeff Deutsch
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <58...@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>>
>>[cross gendering is OK as long as...]
>> They don't run a female just so they can get extra help in starting
>>out a new character. This is under-handed and shows they don't wish
>>to put much work into thier character. Before you flame me (because
>>that's all this group is now) I want to say that I have seen it from
>>both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh about it at
>>thier term next to me. I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
>>make money and equip for thier real character.
>
>
>Sigh. The mere fact that this state of affairs can exist makes me
>really unhappy about how RL women's lib is going. Hmmm. Maybe it's
>*men's lib* that's the problem here. After all, it's the men who are
>being discriminated against: they don't get the extra hand up when
>they're just starting out their characters. But... What if I run a
>female character because I am a female IRL? Does that show that I
>don't wish to put much work into my character? How insulting.
>
>Although the one time I tried playing an LP cross gendered; everyone
>was friendly and helpful to me... I never did go back and try the
>control experiment of playing an LP as a female, so maybe they would
>have been falling over themselves.
>
>Since yduJ (my main social character) and Nosredna (my wizard
>character) are both highly visible on LambdaMOO they aren't subject to
>most of the weird social things that happen to female characters.
>People think twice before hitting on someone who's answer might be
>"@toad" instead of "no" :-)
>
>Mostly I don't care what gender players present through their
>characters. If they want to present as a neuter space alien, I'll
>interact with them *on the mud* as a space alien... Or, more likely,
>as an anonymous set of fingers on the keyboard which may produce
>interesting text for me to read. Previous text that's been attached
>to this tag (the VR name) may give me some expectations as to what
>kind of text that set of fingers will produce, and it's through that
>mechanism that I develop VR friendships. These can turn into IRL
>friendships, if people are talking about IRL things, and then I
>arrange to meet them IRL. I've probably met about 25 MOOers IRL.
>
>I respect those who roleplay, whether it be just a random cross
>gendering, or if their character has something to say for itself. I
>don't try to pry out of them their IRL data (though I may be curious,
>and carefully watching for slips). Most people just play themselves
>though. LambdaMOO has a lot of cross-gendered second characters (yes,
>I have one too; it's chic, you know), but since I don't find any
>difference between talking to females and talking to males for the
>things I'm interested in, I don't really notice.
>
>Earlier in this thread someone said that he "hits on the females and
>buddies with the males". This disturbs me. Why can you not be a
>buddy with a female? I guess I'm just missing out totally. What is
>it about my IRL reproductive equipment that should affect my brain and
>my typing fingers, which are, after all, the only parts of me that are
>involved with mudding?
>
Someone being a man is *in itself* an important characteristic for him. He
need not necessarily be inferring *other* things from the fact that
the other person is a man, and therefore is not necessarily
"prejudiced". He, just like most people, is selective about his
friends, and picks them according to certain characteristics that
are important to him, just as most people do.
>Judy Anderson yclept yduJ yd...@lucid.com 'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge'
> [ LambdaMOO is lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888 / 13.2.116.36 8888 ]
> Join the League for Programming Freedom, lea...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Jeffrey Deutsch
>
> Hmm.
>
> I'm not even sure where to start. It sounds to me like the people
>that had these relationship problems were a little too hung up on sex. If
>you've found someone that you can comfortably talk to, why does it matter
>what their physical sex is?
To *you* it doesn't matter. To others, it's part of what *makes*
someone comfortable to talk to.
>In fact, it sounds like you're a little hung
>up there yourself. "My real characters are guys....As it should be." Ha.
>My real characters are female. I can't seem to do a convincing male role
>playing character (and I play GURPS weekly, as well as MUDs and IRC and
>such).
>
> I've also been on the other side, of getting friendly with someone
>(at his insistance, I might point out), and getting dumped royally when I
>explained to him that my physical sex was male. You think I enjoyed that?
>No. I thought maybe, just maybe, I had found a comfortable friend. I was
>way wrong. As an aside, I don't consider representing my gender in VR as
>female to be misleading, because my gender in RL is also female. But some
>people (it seems, the same people who can't separate VR gender and RL sex)
>can't separate gender and sex. Oh well.
>
In place of "my physical sex was male", put in "I was a
Democratic Socialist" or "I was mainly interested in outdoor sports"
or "I was a very blunt person", and you might see things from his point of view.
You simply turned out to be different in an important way from what he
thought you were. Naturally, that would call for a re-evaluation of
the friendship/relationship.
All of these are very important characteristics which could
cause someone to feel much differently about someone as a friend.
>
>--
>Devin Hooker (RP90) DoD #0034 de...@boulder.colorado.edu
>"It's being both that's a bitch."
>"I'm entirely TOO lucid right now."
>"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.
> Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..." -DW
Jeff Deutsch
Rachel J. Perkins
>
>>Setting aside TinySex, what do you think of RL people playing
>>characters of the opposite gender?
>
>
>>in fact, males in real life,
>
>half are Claire. Get with it.
>
>>and that a fair number of male players are females who don't want to
>>deal with getting hit on.
>
>>Do you think this is true?
>
>
>>In what way would it matter to you if the male character you're
>>talking with is, in fact, a woman playing that character?
>
> -- T.C.B...@syse.salford.ac.uk
I find that once i have expressed my views about tinysex to a male character
who is making a pass at me, he will stop, (or only try a few more times).
If he doesn't stop, i then @gag him, or let the other people in the room
know what is going on. usually, the nicer people (including males) will
harass the idiot until he stops.
I really don't mind whether a character is really the sex he/she claims to be,
as long as they play their character well. And since i very rarely do more
than flirt, it doesn't bother me in a sexual situation.
I think it is fantastic that muds, moos, etc allow us to become the people we
would like to be. in most cases, these characters show confidence and wit,
intelligence, and consideration: characteristics that most of us strive for.
---natasha on LambdaMOO!
Rachel J. Perkins
>Hi folks,
> I am interested in mudding but I have no Idea of where to start.
>but I still don't know some basic stuff:
>What do I need to get started ( a client program? How do I log on to a MUD?)?
>I have a Sun and a NeXT but I would preffer to use the NeXT if possible,
>both are on the net. I can hack C and Unix as well as the next guy. If some kind
>soul could answer my questions I would greatly apreciate it. Please let me
>know about mud etiquite as I am entirely naive about muds.
sorry, but your email address bounces, either way..so here's my message:
To: am...@milo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Novice requests help mudding
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud
In-Reply-To: <vgtvg...@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Cc:
Bcc:
hey! welcome to the wide world of muds!
you are welcome to try LambdaMOO, one of the most helpful and friendly of all
social muds. the way to connect is to do this:
telnet 13.2.116.36 8888 (no dot between the last two numbers)
the connect nessage will tell you how to get a character (we've recently become
a registration mud). this should arrive within a couple of days...
then connect with your character, and say 'help'. the rest is in the files.
also, feel free to ask people for help once you're on. you may come accross
one or two jerks, but most of us are really friendly!
have fun,
natasha on LambdaMOO
--
-just give me what for,
rachel perkins = rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu
"Chastity..the most unnatural of all the sexual perversions...."
-Aldous Huxley
To: am...@milo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Novice requests help mudding
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud
In-Reply-To: <vgtvg...@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <1992May21.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Cc:
Bcc:
hey! welcome to the wide world of muds!
you are welcome to try LambdaMOO, one of the most helpful and friendly of all
social muds. the way to connect is to do this:
telnet 13.2.116.36 8888 (no dot between the last two numbers)
the connect nessage will tell you how to get a character (we've recently become
a registration mud). this should arrive within a couple of days...
then connect with your character, and say 'help'. the rest is in the files.
also, feel free to ask people for help once you're on. you may come accross
one or two jerks, but most of us are really friendly!
have fun,
natasha on LambdaMOO
Mosher Supreme
[lots of good comments deleted]
|> What is
|> it about my IRL reproductive equipment that should affect my brain and
|> my typing fingers, which are, after all, the only parts of me that are
|> involved with mudding?
> Thank you for saying what I'd been trying to say (not very well, I
>might add) so accurately and succinctly.
>
Not to mention, not very politely...
Some people, when they ask "what's your RL gender/name/what have you"
LIKE to get an honest answer. Not every person is so open-minded,
not everyone can equate male with female; and people don't have the
right or duty to *change* that in those narrow-minded cretins.
And for some, it gives them a role framework to feel comfortable with.
Men like confiding (generally) emotional things to females, using a
stereotypical precept which seems to hold true. If you told me you
were a female just to get me to open up to you, and I found out
otherwise, later; not only would my trust be warped out of it's
innocent perfection; but I'd think you were scum (if it hurt me
bad enough), and if the lie was bad enough, I'd not hesitate in
warning my MUD friends about the "person who bends the truth to
suit himself and manipulate others into giving him the answers
he wants". So, there's your answer.
If someone asked me RL gender, and I didn't feel like telling them,
I'd directly tell them so. Course, there are people who feel
*wonderful* deceiving people (however slightly or majorly) to
their faces, to get what they want. For them, I hope the Wiccan
edict of "whatever harm you befall on another will return to
you three-fold" holds true. nothing like a taste of deception
that hurts to make a liar stop.
> -Devin
>
>--
>Devin Hooker (RP90) DoD #0034 de...@boulder.colorado.edu
>"It's being both that's a bitch."
>"I'm entirely TOO lucid right now."
>"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.
> Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..." -DW
Marc Anderson
ande...@ucsu.colorado.edu
Mosher Supreme
In place of "my physical sex was male", put in "I was a
Democratic Socialist" or "I was mainly interested in outdoor sports"
or "I was a very blunt person", and you might see things from his point of view.
You simply turned out to be different in an important way from what he
thought you were. Naturally, that would call for a re-evaluation of
the friendship/relationship.
All of these are very important characteristics which could
cause someone to feel much differently about someone as a friend.
>>
Everything that I said or meant to say, enhanced. You have my profound
thanks, Mr. Deutsch.
>>
> Jeff Deutsch
>
Marc Anderson
ande...@ucsu.colorado.edu
"...and power...and control...is ruled by the laws of deception...lost
in laws of deception...we shake our heads...as your tables turn..."-
Sonic Youth, "Satan is Boring"
Noam Bernstein
> Speak for yourself, dude. I don't get along well with men
>socially (although of course I can work with them) and *all* (yes, I
>mean that literally) of my friends are women. It's not the result of
>an objective comparison of the sexes (although I have noticed that
>women tend to be much less violent than men), but is a highly subjective
>matter. I would be *very* upset if I became close friends with a
>female character and then found out that she was played by a man.
So you'd be upset if you found out your conception of all males was wrong ?
> Jeff Deutsch
>--
Ken Arromdee
I tried this once. I logged onto a mud, and pretended to be a Marxist.
Managed to fool some people.
On the other hand, there is a point here: You hear all the time about people
playing characters of the opposite sex on muds. Now, people do play characters
different from themselves in other ways: plural, different nationalities,
different politics. But it is (or seems to be) rare; do you ever see people
pretending to be Democrats just so they can log the conversation and broadcast
it to a mud full of Republicans? Why don't we see rec.games.mud posts "he
told me he was black, but he's really white; I feel deceived!"? There must be
_some_ fundamental reason why this happens only for male and female.
--
Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!
Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
INTERNET: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Ken Arromdee
>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
Yet another question for thought:
Suppose you have a character who isn't his/her controller, and suppose the
element of deceit isn't around. (For instance, when asked "are you really a
guy, she answers 'no, I'm just a character played by so-and-so, but I'm _not_
so-and-so'.) Now, everyone puts a _certain_ amount of themselves into their
characters. Is it possible to have a character who is not oneself, and who
says "I'm not <player>, though I do have lots in common with my player",
without being totally schizoid?
--
"Am I still reading rec.games.mud? In MY day, flames were much better than
that. We didn't HAVE those nansie-pansie four letter words to swing around,
we dug up hard FACTS when we flamed, AND WE LIKED IT!"
-- Doran, on rec.games.mud
Russell J Kraemer
>
>>If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
>
>Having people call me "Firefoot" in public was bad enough (got some
>strange looks from a guy at Wendy's once).
Thats nothing. You should try hitting on a girl and having a friend
walk up and say "Oh, Hi Stalker"...... If I'm lucky, shes not
a fast runner and I can catch her and try and expalin....
Heh.
>Intolerance is not a lion. It's a weasel.
> -- Dean Kaflowitz (de...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com), talk.abortion
I think therefore I.......shoot, was I saying something?
Grant Fasse
>In <181...@pyramid.pyramid.com> khe...@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Keith Hearn) writes:
>
>[some stuff deleted]
>>feeling goes away. :) I prefer to keep my sex RL. I'll poleplay up
>>to a point, then i prefer to drop out of character and just assume
>>that something happened.
>Okay. So my mind is in the trash. But, poleplay? What's this?
>A virtual freudian slip? :)
No, its not a Freudian slip. Istan riders just have a habit of mispelling alot
Starts with the Weyrleader, and follows on down the rest of the riders. Some of the mispellings get to be pretty funny though, as this one did. ;)
Grant Fasse
J'lan
Rider of the Blue Branth and Dragonhealer
Ista Weyr
fa...@sonata.cc.purdue.edu
Darin Johnson
>"neutrality" is not supposed to simulate anything in RL anyway. I
>suspend judgement until I find out the person's RL gender.
Not to spoil your nice philosophy and all... But isn't suspending
judgement on someone until you know their sex a blatant form of
sexism? (what if someone went around inquiring of all the other players
RL race?)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
- Luxury! In MY day, we had to make do with 5 bytes of swap...
Darin Johnson
>>a male and a female character in real life. Lots of possibility for
>>confusion all around :-)
>
>Um, I can only assume you're talking about me
don't think so...
>I am not played by two RL people, just one.
Now I'm sure. Different mud, sorry for the confusion. but if you're
not played by 2 different RL people, why would anyone think you were?
(maybe it's one those things that happen on 'fringe' muds)
Mikey likes it
>In article <1992May24....@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
>> Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
>>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
>>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
>>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
>
>Yet another question for thought:
>
>Suppose you have a character who isn't his/her controller, and suppose the
>element of deceit isn't around. (For instance, when asked "are you really a
>guy, she answers 'no, I'm just a character played by so-and-so, but I'm _not_
>so-and-so'.) Now, everyone puts a _certain_ amount of themselves into their
>characters. Is it possible to have a character who is not oneself, and who
>says "I'm not <player>, though I do have lots in common with my player",
>without being totally schizoid?
Hmm... You should ask Bruce about that one. :)
Mikel B.
Jennifer S Broekman
goeh...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
>>If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
>I would not be caught dead using my current VR name in real life.
>Having people call me "Firefoot" in public was bad enough (got some
>strange looks from a guy at Wendy's once).
I meant when I meet someone who plays on one of the MUSHes I play on, such as
at the RL Gathers held periodically by the Pern-type folks. Of course, my
characters have fairly normal names.....
-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
Keith C. Estanol
>I think a way more interesting topic would be like a cross-racial or
>cross-cultural character. I can hardly ever remember anyone describing
>their racial characteristics. Do people playing MUDs automatically
>assume all humanoid characters they run into are of their own race or
>nationality? (Like in your mind's eye, are all the player characters
>you run into white? <If that happens to be your own racial makeup> )
>
>Is anyone playing a cross-cultural character? Do you have to
>explicitly tell people that so they don't make default assumptions?
>
>Now, that I think is an interesting topic.
>
Why did I hit F? Well.. I surely did.
I play a mollusk. No. I play.. actually, I play a character
that has a song as a description.
This defies description.
Aik.
Keith C. Estanol | st...@ucsd.edu
UCSD, Cognitive Science | st...@ucsd.bitnet
Time Traveller Wizard's Council,
Wanted: An office with a window, and a SPARCstation
------------------------------------------------------------
"You can choose from phantom fears or kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will!"
- Rush -
Jennifer S Broekman
> Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character. But I put
>two conditions on it. One: They dont go around hitting on guys. I have seen a
>few of my friends get involved in Mud-Relationships.....Only to learn after a
>long time that there was a guy at the other end.
The only reason I can think of that this might be a problem is if you're
homophobic.
>As a guy I know easy it is to talk about problems to
>someone you think is a girl.
So, you find a character you can talk to... Then you find out said character's
player is male. Then you freak, because, after all, every one knows *real*
guys don't talk about *problems*, they talk about *sports* and *babes*....
Wake up, folks. Nothing you do on a MU* makes *you*, the player, gay or not a
*real* man, whatever that's supposed to mean.....
>I have seen it from both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh
>about it at thier term next to me.I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
>make money and equip for thier real character.
You've seen it from one end. You've seen the guys who run caricatures to get
hit on. Have you ever seen someone who took it seriously? There *are* some
people out there who run cross-gender characters who are *not* trying to 'lead
other players on and laugh about it at their term'.
> Basically......I'm a guy.....My real characters are guys....As it should be.
Bwahahahahahaha..... Get real. There is no single 'as it should be'.
Jennifer S Broekman
jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
> Or for those of us who are trying to make RL friendships on
>MU*s (and yes, it does happen). I, for one, will only befriend women.
>Period. No, it's not an objective criticism of men. No, I'm not
>interested in discussing "why".
Just out of curiosity: define 'women'. Do you only befriend fem humans? Only
humans with an XX pair? Only humans with tits? What about Devin(?) whose
genitalia is male but whose gender is female? What about a really butch dyke?
Jennifer S Broekman
>Going beyond cross-gender characters, how about characters with
> differing sexual orientations from the player? Perhaps we
> should be more cautious when asking the computer geek
> if he's ever kissed a girl before... ;)
Well, of course you should...;-)
I enjoy playing characters of differing orientations as much as of differing
genders. Let's see.... I play a heterosexual 'phobe, a heterosexual slut (not
often, as the character's on a MU* I don't really enjoy), a bisexual slut, a
quiet bisexual, a quiet homosexual, and a clown homosexual (as in, the
character likes puns and jokes).
NM156
>>The only reason I can think of that this might be a problem is if you're
>>homophobic.
>
[herr Wolverine rants uncontrollably here...]
>...I AM GOING TO BECOME THE MOST ANNOYING BASTARD TO YOU ON THE NET
>THAT YOU HAVE EVER RUN ACROSS.
hmmm... you're pretty close now. we had better not call your bluff by using
the 'h' word again.
perhaps you'd like enlighten us with a better concise label for people such as
yourself that are so hung up on their adolescent sexuality that they can't
comprehend anyone who feels differently.
> [...more ranting and raving along with really confusing analogies...]
>THAT I F**KED WITH YOUR LIFE SAVINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'm really curious about this whole F**K thing. what are the asterisks for?
are you trying to protect our virgin eyes from the word 'fuck'?
it's just terribly amusing to see someone write this offensive and annoying
a "flame" and then censor out two letters from the his favorite vulgarity.
oh, btw... the whole "caps lock makes me look like a badass" thing is a myth.
you will be every bit as much of a repressed dweeb in BIG letters as you were
in lowercase.
>Get a life. Please.
teehee... ummmm.... never mind.
daVe
--
Ingredients: chopped pork shoulder with ham, salt, water, sugar, sodium
nitrate, snar...@leland.stanford.edu
Jennifer S Broekman
js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (jenneke) writes:
>>BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
>>someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
>>upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
>>
> Well, that's your privilege, and that's just fine. There's
>nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be what you're not in a
>fantasy environment like this. However, you ought to keep in mind
>that there are others out there who believe in being themselves, too,
>and know that there are others who also believe in being themselves-
>and thus have reasonable cause to believe that there is some
>resemblance between a character and the person playing him/her, even
>if sometimes that belief is not correct.
No, no, no, no, and a thousand more times no. The fact that you are one
way and that there are others out there who are the same way you are does
*NOT*!!! give you the right to assume that *every*one else is that way, too.
If you're heterosexual, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're
middle class, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're American, you
can't assume that everyone else is. Learn to take people on an individual
basis, instead of making up rules to deal with everyone the same way.
> Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
How about waiting till it comes up, if it ever does? Most of us slip out of
character every once in a while. Some of us mark quite clearly what is OOC.
Why not just observe a person's OOC remarks and decide *based on those* if the
player is anything like the character?
>They have simply made a mistake in your particular case, an unavoidable
>mistake caused by having to act before one has all of the necessary
>information. This kind of thing happnes every day in all sorts of
>situations. Just let them know politely that no, you and your character
>should not be equated, etc., etc., etc. Thanks in advance from all
>of us "friendly folk".
They've made a general assumption I dislike and I try to get them to lose it.
You've never met me on a MU* that I know of. I'm generally quite polite, even
friendly. And yes, I have made a couple RL friendships through VR. I have as
many OOC BS sessions as the next player, but that does *not* mean that I am the
same as any of my characters in any specific way. Compris?
-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
Wolverine
>homophobic.
HEY SHITHEAD! YES YOU! IF I HEAR THE WORD HOMOPHOBIC ONE MORE F***ING TIME
USED AS AN EXCUSE FOR SOMEONE TO F**K WITH MY HEAD IN THE NAME OF SEXUAL
TOLERANCE I AM GOING TO BECOME THE MOST ANNOYING BASTARD TO YOU ON THE NET
THAT YOU HAVE EVER RUN ACROSS. HEY, I MEAN WHAT"S THE MATTER - ARE YOU A
BASTARDPHOBE????
I SUPPOSE IF I WANT TO SELL YOU THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE FOR THE PLEASURE I
MIGHT DERIVE OUT OF IT AND THEN YOU GOT UPSET BECAUSE I HADNT TOLD YOU THE
TRUTH THAT WOULD MAKE YOU SWINDLEPHOBIC, RIGHT? SO IT WOULD BE YOUR PROBLEM
THAT I F**KED WITH YOUR LIFE SAVINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a life. Please.
Sarah Elizabeth Heacock
~> Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
~>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
~>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
~>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
~
Yet another question for thought:
~Suppose you have a character who isn't his/her controller, and suppose the
~element of deceit isn't around. (For instance, when asked "are you really a
~guy, she answers 'no, I'm just a character played by so-and-so, but I'm _not_
~so-and-so'.) Now, everyone puts a _certain_ amount of themselves into their
~characters. Is it possible to have a character who is not oneself, and who
~says "I'm not <player>, though I do have lots in common with my player",
~without being totally schizoid?
Of course not! I say that a lot when people ask me. I think it would be
difficult to play a character that was not true for. Because, if you don't
put parts of yourself in the character, where do you get his/her traits?
Sure, you can get some from friends, or just 'What happens if?' type questions,
but to be realistic in your characterization, you need to at least be able to
know something about how that type of person would act. ANd, what better place
to get it than from within yourself?
ALL of my characters have lots in common with me, RL, but none of the are me.
(PArtly because I would be -very- boring to roleplay *grin*) But rather it
is more like I sectioned off parts of my personality and 'gave' them to
various characters.
Sarah E. Heacock seh...@tamuts.tamu.edu
.sig dedicated to the memory of Gene Roddenberry "The Great Bird of the Galaxy"
aka Yarra@PernMUSH,Elizyl@SouCon,others elsewhere
Michael M. Huang
*Michael is blinded from all this shouting*
>Get a life. Please.
Michael says: I can't. I am blind, man.
-michael
Vincent's Hollow
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael M. Huang mic...@IAState.EDU
Iowa State University mi...@IAState.EDU
Ames, Iowa, U.S.A. m...@IAState.EDU
Wes
> In article <1992May24....@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>
> jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
> >In article <1992May22.0...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>
> js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (jenneke) writes:
> >>BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
> >>someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
> >>upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
> >>
> > Well, that's your privilege, and that's just fine. There's
> >nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be what you're not in a
> >fantasy environment like this. However, you ought to keep in mind
> >that there are others out there who believe in being themselves, too,
> >and know that there are others who also believe in being themselves-
> >and thus have reasonable cause to believe that there is some
> >resemblance between a character and the person playing him/her, even
> >if sometimes that belief is not correct.
>
> No, no, no, no, and a thousand more times no. The fact that you are one
> way and that there are others out there who are the same way you are does
> *NOT*!!! give you the right to assume that *every*one else is that way, too.
> If you're heterosexual, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're
> middle class, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're American, you
> can't assume that everyone else is. Learn to take people on an individual
> basis, instead of making up rules to deal with everyone the same way.
>
can see this persons point. I do not think a person can play a
character without some characteristic or element of that person being
within the character. I think it is next to impossible. When a
person plays a character(I don't care if it is out of gender, out of
RL personality or whatever) that character will STILL have elements of
the person playing the character. Because it is that person's
perseception of what that particular character would be like. Everyone has
different perceptions(ways of looking at things) which makes everyone
an individual. So I would agree that There is "reasonable cause to
believe that there are some resemblance between the character and the
person playing that character". NO MATTER WHAT!
> -Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
I think people should play within gender at least. Changing
personality traits is fine. So you bend you personality a bit on a
mudd. That fact in the case is probably that you would say and or do
things on a mudd that you do not have the guts to do in RL but have
wanted to do or say. I know mudd is a game and is "Fantasy" but I
also no that many people take it seriously and many people make RL
friends through mudding. It would be nice to know that the friend you
make is at least the same gender in RL as on the Mudd when you do meet
them in RL. That is just my opinion though. I could care less if
someone plays against there gender. Although as Eddie Murphy put it
in Raw: Males are Simple Creatures....Cater to there ego and you get
your way. I have seen the female characters manage to get more help
on the mudd by doing a little sweet talking....laugh....I never make
an assumption that a character is actually the same gender in RL.
Usually if you talk to a character enough through your character you
can figure it out. Enough babbaling from me that is my .02.
-Lasarian
Wes
> In article <1992May22.2...@lucid.com> yd...@lucid.com (Judy Anderson) writes:
> >In article <58...@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
> >>
> >>[cross gendering is OK as long as...]
> >> They don't run a female just so they can get extra help in starting
> >>out a new character. This is under-handed and shows they don't wish
> >>to put much work into thier character. Before you flame me (because
> >>that's all this group is now) I want to say that I have seen it from
> >>both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh about it at
> >>thier term next to me. I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
> >>make money and equip for thier real character.
> >
> >
> >Sigh. The mere fact that this state of affairs can exist makes me
> >really unhappy about how RL women's lib is going. Hmmm. Maybe it's
> >*men's lib* that's the problem here. After all, it's the men who are
> >being discriminated against: they don't get the extra hand up when
> >they're just starting out their characters. But... What if I run a
> >female character because I am a female IRL? Does that show that I
> >don't wish to put much work into my character? How insulting.
> >
> >Although the one time I tried playing an LP cross gendered; everyone
> >was friendly and helpful to me... I never did go back and try the
> >control experiment of playing an LP as a female, so maybe they would
> >have been falling over themselves.
characters one female and one male. See if you notice a difference in
the help or attention(socially) you recieve.
Also I believe that people(in many cases) who play mudd seriously:
[You know the name that seems to pop up on every mudd and it be the
same person]: are I would say playing within gender at the least.
This statement is from experience. Not absolute fact though. Just a
helpful tip.
-Las
Jeffrey Deutsch
>jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
>: >aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Seth Rich) writes:
>: >
>: >>characters of the opposite gender?
>: >
>: >What difference does it make?
>: Speak for yourself, dude. I don't get along well with men
>: socially (although of course I can work with them) and *all* (yes, I
>: mean that literally) of my friends are women. It's not the result of
>: an objective comparison of the sexes (although I have noticed that
>: women tend to be much less violent than men), but is a highly subjective
>: matter. I would be *very* upset if I became close friends with a
>: female character and then found out that she was played by a man.
>
>a -man- who's obviously the type of person you could be friends with.
>if you really aren't interested only in sex (as you state later on)
>then the aquisition of a friend should be no reason to "be *very* upset".
>
>it sounds like you just don't want to have your misconceptions about
>gender blown away.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't prefer women
(to put it mildly) because I feel that one's gender is an *indicator* of
*other* characteristics that I like-gender is *in and of itself* an
important characteristic. Therefore, when I find that someone I thought
was female is actually male, then the person is no longer the type I
could be friends with, just as you might react if, say, you disapproved
of hard drugs, and found out that someone you thought led a straight
life was actually a heroin or crack addict. (Pick your own detrimental
characteristic-unless you befriend everyone who walks in the door you
have at least several in mind).
Therefore, it has nothing to do with misconceptions about
gender.
Hope that clears things up.
>
>--
>would you could you should you cross thru if i could wipe my eyes a blinding
>compromise another pinky shave enlightens the brow now cow to die another day
>if you prefer outside be blessed sir ostracize better bastard now forgotten
>well instead of favored son of hell in hopes to open eyes - scaterd few, U
>`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` ste...@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
Jeffrey Deutsch
>> Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
>>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
>>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
>>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
>
>Yet another question for thought:
>
>Suppose you have a character who isn't his/her controller, and suppose the
>element of deceit isn't around. (For instance, when asked "are you really a
>guy, she answers 'no, I'm just a character played by so-and-so, but I'm _not_
>so-and-so'.) Now, everyone puts a _certain_ amount of themselves into their
>characters. Is it possible to have a character who is not oneself, and who
>says "I'm not <player>, though I do have lots in common with my player",
>without being totally schizoid?
I'm a little confused:
1) Is the character referred to in parenthesis a male or
female character, and is the controller male or female?
2) Who is the "she" referred to? The character or the
controller?
3) What would be so schizoid about what you're asking?
By definition, a character is not oneself (or do you mean
"*completely like* oneself"?).
>--
>"Am I still reading rec.games.mud? In MY day, flames were much better than
>that. We didn't HAVE those nansie-pansie four letter words to swing around,
>we dug up hard FACTS when we flamed, AND WE LIKED IT!"
> -- Doran, on rec.games.mud
>
>Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
> INTERNET: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Jeff Deutsch
Jeffrey Deutsch
>> In place of "my physical sex was male", put in "I was a
>>Democratic Socialist" ...
>
>I tried this once. I logged onto a mud, and pretended to be a Marxist.
>Managed to fool some people.
>
>On the other hand, there is a point here: You hear all the time about people
>playing characters of the opposite sex on muds. Now, people do play characters
>different from themselves in other ways: plural, different nationalities,
>different politics. But it is (or seems to be) rare; do you ever see people
>pretending to be Democrats just so they can log the conversation and broadcast
>it to a mud full of Republicans? Why don't we see rec.games.mud posts "he
>told me he was black, but he's really white; I feel deceived!"? There must be
>_some_ fundamental reason why this happens only for male and female.
I wasn't simply referring to muds, nor was I specifically
referring to deception. I was trying to show how most of you, IRL,
would be upset if someone turned out to have characteristics you didn't
know he/she did, or was even different in a way from what you thought
he/she was (deception or no deception). Understanding that, I'm sure
you can understand how people also would feel differently about a MUD
friend if one of his/her characteristics was different from what they
thought it was.
>--
>Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!
>
>Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
> INTERNET: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Jeff Deutsch
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <58...@hydra.gatech.EDU>
>gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>
>> Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character. But I put
>>two conditions on it. One: They dont go around hitting on guys. I have seen a
>>few of my friends get involved in Mud-Relationships.....Only to learn after a
>>long time that there was a guy at the other end.
>
>The only reason I can think of that this might be a problem is if you're
>homophobic.
>
everyone's real wishes and thoughts. Too bad I haven't heard of you at
the recent Mid-East peace talks (or were you advising in the
background?). G*d knows, everyone would have offered top dollar for
your negotiating and advising services.
Seriously, don't go projecting all these hideous wishes
and thoughts on people just because their motivations obviously
differ from your own. Very likely this guy is heterosexual, and
therefore does not form relationships with men. It doesn't mean
that he hates homosexuals, just that he would very much appreciate
knowing someone's gender for sure before he steps into anything.
>>As a guy I know easy it is to talk about problems to
>>someone you think is a girl.
>
>So, you find a character you can talk to... Then you find out said character's
>player is male. Then you freak, because, after all, every one knows *real*
>guys don't talk about *problems*, they talk about *sports* and *babes*....
Same as above.
Many people, including he and I, feel much more comfortable
talking with women-especially about *non*macho things like love, how
to deal with one of your friend's getting raped, feelings of inadequacy,
etc.
In fact, not that this either adds legitimacy to his (and my)
point nor is necessary therefor, but I understand that perhaps the
majority of people get along better with the opposite sex than the same
sex.
>Wake up, folks. Nothing you do on a MU* makes *you*, the player, gay or not a
>*real* man, whatever that's supposed to mean.....
>
Whatever what you've just said is supposed to mean...
>>I have seen it from both ends. I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh
>>about it at thier term next to me.I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to
>>make money and equip for thier real character.
>
>You've seen it from one end. You've seen the guys who run caricatures to get
>hit on. Have you ever seen someone who took it seriously? There *are* some
>people out there who run cross-gender characters who are *not* trying to 'lead
>other players on and laugh about it at their term'.
>
He wasn't saying there weren't. In fact, the very fact that he
says it's ok with him if you cross-gender *provided* you don't try
to lead others on and laugh about it at your terminal, implies that he
believes that there *are* people who cross-gender *without* doing that.
>> Basically......I'm a guy.....My real characters are guys....As it should be.
>
>Bwahahahahahaha..... Get real. There is no single 'as it should be'.
>
>-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
>
>A nice person is someone who never intends to insult.
>A civilized person is someone who never insults without intent.
>(paraphrased from somewhere)
>***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
Jeff Deutsch
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <1992May24.0...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>
>jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
>> Or for those of us who are trying to make RL friendships on
>>MU*s (and yes, it does happen). I, for one, will only befriend women.
>>Period. No, it's not an objective criticism of men. No, I'm not
>>interested in discussing "why".
>
>Just out of curiosity: define 'women'. Do you only befriend fem humans? Only
>humans with an XX pair? Only humans with tits? What about Devin(?) whose
>genitalia is male but whose gender is female? What about a really butch dyke?
>
I don't have *a* single definition in advance of what a woman is, but
I know one when I see one (assuming no deceitful cross-dressing, of
course).
I'm not going to bother going into "what about people with
XXY pairs, or butch dykes, or whatever", because those examples are so
rare (and I've never come across an example-or if I did it didn't have
any effect on me) that they simply pose no problem for me.
Why don't you define in advance the kinds of people you will
befriend? I'm sure it's a helluva lot harder to define, say, a
"sensitive" person (gives you at 3 hugs/week? cries at least 20 tears/
month? speaks less than 10% of his words about violence?) or an
"intellectual" person (reads 10 new books/month? wears horn-rimmed
glasses?) than it is to define what a woman is.
>-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
>
>A nice person is someone who never intends to insult.
>A civilized person is someone who never insults without intent.
>(paraphrased from somewhere)
>***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
Jeff Deutsch
Rachel J. Perkins
>In article <1992May22.2...@colorado.edu> de...@frodo.colorado.edu (Sonja Orlavski) writes:
>In article <1992May22.2...@lucid.com>, yd...@lucid.com (Judy Anderson) writes:
>[lots of good comments deleted]
>|> What is
>|> it about my IRL reproductive equipment that should affect my brain and
>|> my typing fingers, which are, after all, the only parts of me that are
>|> involved with mudding?
>
>> Thank you for saying what I'd been trying to say (not very well, I
>>might add) so accurately and succinctly.
>>
> Not to mention, not very politely...
what was impolite about judy's post? i saw no rude or insensitive thing...
> Some people, when they ask "what's your RL gender/name/what have you"
> LIKE to get an honest answer. Not every person is so open-minded,
> not everyone can equate male with female; and people don't have the
> right or duty to *change* that in those narrow-minded cretins.
> And for some, it gives them a role framework to feel comfortable with.
> Men like confiding (generally) emotional things to females, using a
> stereotypical precept which seems to hold true. If you told me you
> were a female just to get me to open up to you, and I found out
this person appears to be making assumptions. if there are things you don't
want people to know about you, just don't tell 'em....i don't claim to have
the right to change your sexist perceptions, but i do have the right to create
my character the way i want, and also to 'lie' about my rl persona. as i said--
in a vr situation, you have no way of knowing who is who--that's part of the
fun..if you are telling secrets you wouldn't like to tell a man, don't tell
a vr female...i suggest you get a rl female friend, and 'use ' her to 'open up'
to. my experience is that the kind of person who makes these kinds of comments
is only interested in mudding for sex. otherwise, they wouldn't feel as though
they've been violated when it turns out they've been 'boinking' a rl male with
a vr female character. and if it bothers 'em that much, i'd say it serves 'em
right...
> otherwise, later; not only would my trust be warped out of it's
> innocent perfection; but I'd think you were scum (if it hurt me
> bad enough), and if the lie was bad enough, I'd not hesitate in
> warning my MUD friends about the "person who bends the truth to
> suit himself and manipulate others into giving him the answers
> he wants". So, there's your answer.
as i said--this person seems to be putting far too much trust into a system
which is based on creativity and fabrication...vr is for fun, and if you
need to be sure abou the people you 'open up' to, do it in rl..
>
>Marc Anderson
>ande...@ucsu.colorado.edu
natasha on LambdaMOO!
--
-just give me what for,
rachel perkins = rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu
"Chastity..the most unnatural of all the sexual perversions...."
-Aldous Huxley
Rachel J. Perkins
sounds like you're the one who needs to get a life...you're going to spend your
time annoying someone you've never met over the internet just to get your
jollies...well...have fun, you....
homophobe!
(besides, some of us are getting to be a little four-letter-word-ophobic...)
Jeffrey Deutsch
>jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey Deutsch) writes:
>>In article <1992May22.0...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>
>js...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (jenneke) writes:
>>>BTW, out of the blue, I would tell the person to bugger off. If it's
>>>someone who perpetually tries to equate me and my character, I'd get more
>>>upset. If I meet someone RL, I introduce myself by all my VR names.
>>>
>> Well, that's your privilege, and that's just fine. There's
>>nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be what you're not in a
>>fantasy environment like this. However, you ought to keep in mind
>>that there are others out there who believe in being themselves, too,
>>and know that there are others who also believe in being themselves-
>>and thus have reasonable cause to believe that there is some
>>resemblance between a character and the person playing him/her, even
>>if sometimes that belief is not correct.
>
>No, no, no, no, and a thousand more times no. The fact that you are one
>way and that there are others out there who are the same way you are does
>*NOT*!!! give you the right to assume that *every*one else is that way, too.
>If you're heterosexual, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're
>middle class, you can't assume that everyone else is. If you're American, you
>can't assume that everyone else is. Learn to take people on an individual
>basis, instead of making up rules to deal with everyone the same way.
>
>> Since most characters do not advertise whether or not they
>>are very much like the people playing them, one must make a decision,
>>without having all the necessary knowledge, as to whether or not to
>>treat the character as if he/she were like his/her "controller".
>
>How about waiting till it comes up, if it ever does? Most of us slip out of
>character every once in a while. Some of us mark quite clearly what is OOC.
>Why not just observe a person's OOC remarks and decide *based on those* if the
>player is anything like the character?
>
You mean that we should all just hang around people we want
to possibly know better, with bated breath, waiting for that OOC remark
to appear? And *how would we even know* that a given remark is OOC,
given that we don't know the character's controller to start with.
What you suggest is simply unworkable in the real world.
>>They have simply made a mistake in your particular case, an unavoidable
>>mistake caused by having to act before one has all of the necessary
>>information. This kind of thing happnes every day in all sorts of
>>situations. Just let them know politely that no, you and your character
>>should not be equated, etc., etc., etc. Thanks in advance from all
>>of us "friendly folk".
>
>They've made a general assumption I dislike and I try to get them to lose it.
>You've never met me on a MU* that I know of. I'm generally quite polite, even
>friendly. And yes, I have made a couple RL friendships through VR. I have as
>many OOC BS sessions as the next player, but that does *not* mean that I am the
>same as any of my characters in any specific way. Compris?
>
>-Pandat@PernMUSH/Kassara@SouConMUSH
>
>A nice person is someone who never intends to insult.
>A civilized person is someone who never insults without intent.
>(paraphrased from somewhere)
>***This article posted by jenneke, who doesn't claim to be either of the above.
I'm deliberately posting the whole thing, so y'all can get the
thread of our previous argument. I don't want to quote anyone out of
context here.
Jennifer, there are all too many social situations in which
one must indeed make decisions about people with insufficient
information, and thus the possibility of making a mistake, but with
more information than zero. Ask any date rape victim. At Columbia,
I'm sure there are programs to help people reduce the risks of being
raped. One of the things such programs often feature is certain
warning signs: the guy wants to be alone with you, he insists on
spending a lot of money on you, he seems very possessive, etc.
Also, perhaps you may have been warned not to single-date unless you
already know the guy well. Does this mean that every guy is a rapist?
Or even that every spendthrift guy is a rapist? Or every guy who
(like me, for instance) is highly uncomfortable in group situations,
and feels best talking one on one, is a rapist? No. But you won't know
for *sure* that a guy is or isn't until 1) he's already on top of you
pulling your skirt up and your panties down, in which case you're
already in a very difficult situation or 2) a good number of dates
have passed, and you've come to trust him-but you won't know that
beforehand. Yes, it's true that by making certain presumptions
in advance you'll be missing out on some great guys and great
situations. *But there will be some costs either way*.
Besides the problem of watching out for bad people,
there is also the problem of not knowing in advance what someone
is like, but having to make a decision in advance how to act.
For example, what you said about not assuming heterosexuality
makes me laugh. Do you honestly mean to tell me that (90% of) the
men and women are all acting irrationally when they go through
little "courtship rituals" and flirtations with people of the
opposite sex they don't know well already? Are you actually suggesting
that I, for example, say "Look, you're really a really nice looking
woman, but before I compliment you on your dress or your answer to
that professor's question, tell me: are you a lesbian?"
In the specific matter of how someone is supposed to
react when he sees someone on a MUD and wonders whether or not
that character is like her controller, because that will determine
whether or not he approaches her, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO DO?
*EITHER WAY*, he is going to make some mistakes with some people.
Women who are playing female characters would be distressed if he
assumed they were actually played by men, and decided not to
approach them. You are pitching a fit over some people who assume
that characters in that respect *are* like their controllers.
Or is he supposed to maybe assume, perhaps, an 80% probability,
and randomly pick 4 out of 5 characters to assume are like their
controllers, and 1 out of 5 to assume that they are not? That will
also result in some mistaken assumptions in particular instances,
perhaps even as many as if he assumed they were all like or unlike
their controllers.
"Treating someone as an individual" only makes sense
*once* you have the requisite information. When you just see
someone in front of you and you don't have all the important
information about him/her, you *have* to act either according to
categorizations fitting what little information you have, or
simply the law of probability. Neither categorization nor
probability, by definition, is a respecter of individuals.
'Nuff sed.
Jeffrey Deutsch
>> As for neuters, I don't assume anything, since after all
>>"neutrality" is not supposed to simulate anything in RL anyway. I
>>suspend judgement until I find out the person's RL gender.
>
>Not to spoil your nice philosophy and all... But isn't suspending
>judgement on someone until you know their sex a blatant form of
>sexism? (what if someone went around inquiring of all the other players
>RL race?)
you knew that he was an intellectual, and you weren't and didn't feel
compatible with intellectuals, say, would be a form of
"antiintellectualism".
The fact is, unless you befriend everyone who comes down the
pike, you are always going to "discriminate" based on certain
characteristics. There's no two ways about it.
>--
>Darin Johnson
>djoh...@ucsd.edu
> - Luxury! In MY day, we had to make do with 5 bytes of swap...
Jeff Deutsch
Jeffrey Deutsch
>In article <1992May24.0...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> ande...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Mosher Supreme) writes:
>>
>> Some people, when they ask "what's your RL gender/name/what have you"
>> LIKE to get an honest answer. Not every person is so open-minded,
>> not everyone can equate male with female; and people don't have the
>> right or duty to *change* that in those narrow-minded cretins.
>> And for some, it gives them a role framework to feel comfortable with.
>> Men like confiding (generally) emotional things to females, using a
>> stereotypical precept which seems to hold true. If you told me you
>> were a female just to get me to open up to you, and I found out
>
>this person appears to be making assumptions. if there are things you don't
>want people to know about you, just don't tell 'em....i don't claim to have
>the right to change your sexist perceptions, but i do have the right to create
>my character the way i want, and also to 'lie' about my rl persona. as i said--
>in a vr situation, you have no way of knowing who is who--that's part of the
>fun..if you are telling secrets you wouldn't like to tell a man, don't tell
>a vr female...i suggest you get a rl female friend, and 'use ' her to 'open up'
>to. my experience is that the kind of person who makes these kinds of comments
>is only interested in mudding for sex. otherwise, they wouldn't feel as though
>they've been violated when it turns out they've been 'boinking' a rl male with
>a vr female character. and if it bothers 'em that much, i'd say it serves 'em
>right...
>
me, at any rate. But I think you are wrong in two respects:
1) Many guys (like me) who are concerned about the true gender
of the VR folks they come into contact with *are not* "looking for
sex".
2) Many of us *already have* female friends-but would very much
like to have more.
It does not "serve us right" *necessarily* (although I'll grant
that in the instance of particular guys who are sexual harassers, it
may) to find out that a female character is actually played by a man.
I also very much disapprove of *actually lying* about your RL gender
when asked. Those of us who want to talk about sensitive things with
female friends who would not do so with male friends would be very
hurt, and have every right to be, if the female characters they were
talking to had led them to believe that their controllers were female
when in fact they were male.
>> otherwise, later; not only would my trust be warped out of it's
>> innocent perfection; but I'd think you were scum (if it hurt me
>> bad enough), and if the lie was bad enough, I'd not hesitate in
>> warning my MUD friends about the "person who bends the truth to
>> suit himself and manipulate others into giving him the answers
>> he wants". So, there's your answer.
>
>as i said--this person seems to be putting far too much trust into a system
>which is based on creativity and fabrication...vr is for fun, and if you
>need to be sure abou the people you 'open up' to, do it in rl..
>
Creativity is one thing. Lying is another. The fact that this
is a role-playing game does not justify the latter.
>>
>>Marc Anderson
>>ande...@ucsu.colorado.edu
>
>
>natasha on LambdaMOO!
>--
> -just give me what for,
> rachel perkins = rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu
> "Chastity..the most unnatural of all the sexual perversions...."
> -Aldous Huxley
Jeff Deutsch
Coyt D Watters
is to use a terminal program which allows you to use "Chat" mode,
where you get a typing line which is not interrupted by the incoming
stream.
In Procomm (most versions) you should be able to use ALT-o after you
connect to split the screen. Your typing is at the bottom, and when
you finish a line (press return) the line will be sent to the modem.
Sure is a lot simpler than trying to remember if this mud allows delete
or ctrl-H or if you have to arrow back and typeover. The split screen
will allow you to edit locally, then send the complete line to the MUD.
Most of the better term packages allow this. Look for "chat" or
"teleconference" in teh index.
--
Coyt D. Watters in the Role of : cwat...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Coyt D Watters
Shadowrun?) As a Gm, I have to constantly switch genders/roles just to play
the NPCs. I refuse to have every character whose role I must assume be male
simply because I am male. Sheesh. Besides, convincingly playing a member
of the opposite gender is one of the toughest parts to pull off (remember
_Tootsie_, with Dustin Hoffman?) and a challenge for a roleplayer.
I have played female characters in a tournament event, with people I never
met before the event. No one was turned off or refused to accept my character
just because the player was male (maybe the face to face helps). Good
roleplayers don't care - they'll play the character as best they can, and
have fun anyhow.
I can see the other side, if you're online to make RL friends you might be
taken aback to find that there is a gender mismatch when you meet RL. But
expecting someone to be exactly like their online persona is like expecting
Leonard Nimoy to be *Spock* or Ms. Bergen to be *Murphy Brown*, at best you're
going to be disappointed.
My response when someone asks me, when I am roleplaying (I don't MUD to
socialize), what my RL gender is, is:
"You must make that decision for yourself. Will that change your roleplaying?"
Asking a player if they are male/female RL is like asking if they are
caucasian, african-american, hispanic, polynesian, etc. Bigotry includes
gender, among other things.
For me, the allure of MUDs is the anonymity. I don't care if Joe is played
by a male/female/alien from planet X, as long as Joe remains constant in the
role. It's a personal choice, IMHO "An harm come to none, do as thou wishest."
(ok, correct my quotage - I know it ain't exactly right)
Dave Arlington
In article <1992May26.0...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, jdeu...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Jeffrey
Deutsch) writes:
|>
|> Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't prefer women
|> (to put it mildly) because I feel that one's gender is an *indicator* of
|> *other* characteristics that I like-gender is *in and of itself* an
|> important characteristic. Therefore, when I find that someone I thought
|> was female is actually male, then the person is no longer the type I
|> could be friends with, just as you might react if, say, you disapproved
|> of hard drugs, and found out that someone you thought led a straight
|> life was actually a heroin or crack addict. (Pick your own detrimental
|> characteristic-unless you befriend everyone who walks in the door you
|> have at least several in mind).
|> Therefore, it has nothing to do with misconceptions about
|> gender.
|> Hope that clears things up.
|>
view, that every human being is a set of either desirable or undesirable
"characteristics" - female, male, nonsmoker, smoker, republican, democrat?
And that only human beings who somehow survive your filtering process will
end up having any chance of being a friend of yours?
If so, I feel sort of sorry for you. Pesonally, I actually believe in the
latter method you mention, befriending everyone who walks in the door and
then deciding after I know the *person* and not just their superficial
characteristic set of properties, as to whether they deserve my friendship
or not. I would think that you must miss out on some very interesting and
possibly rewarding friendships with your pre-screening process.
"Remember, save the planet, defy authority, and watch your cholesterol!" - PLCL
"Nulla Quaestio!" Dave Arlington
Rachel J. Perkins
>In article <1992May26.0...@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu (Rachel J. Perkins) writes:
>>In article <1992May24.0...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> ande...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Mosher Supreme) writes:
>>>
>>> Some people, when they ask "what's your RL gender/name/what have you"
>>> LIKE to get an honest answer. Not every person is so open-minded,
>>> not everyone can equate male with female; and people don't have the
>>> right or duty to *change* that in those narrow-minded cretins.
>>> And for some, it gives them a role framework to feel comfortable with.
>>> Men like confiding (generally) emotional things to females, using a
>>> stereotypical precept which seems to hold true. If you told me you
>>> were a female just to get me to open up to you, and I found out
>>
>>this person appears to be making assumptions. if there are things you don't
>>want people to know about you, just don't tell 'em....i don't claim to have
>>the right to change your sexist perceptions, but i do have the right to create
>>my character the way i want, and also to 'lie' about my rl persona. as i said--
>>in a vr situation, you have no way of knowing who is who--that's part of the
>>fun..if you are telling secrets you wouldn't like to tell a man, don't tell
>>a vr female...i suggest you get a rl female friend, and 'use ' her to 'open up'
>>to. my experience is that the kind of person who makes these kinds of comments
> Oh, your right to conceal your RL gender is not contested by
>me, at any rate. But I think you are wrong in two respects:
> 1) Many guys (like me) who are concerned about the true gender
>of the VR folks they come into contact with *are not* "looking for
>sex".
> 2) Many of us *already have* female friends-but would very much
>like to have more.
>
> It does not "serve us right" *necessarily* (although I'll grant
>that in the instance of particular guys who are sexual harassers, it
>may) to find out that a female character is actually played by a man.
>I also very much disapprove of *actually lying* about your RL gender
>when asked. Those of us who want to talk about sensitive things with
>female friends who would not do so with male friends would be very
>hurt, and have every right to be, if the female characters they were
>talking to had led them to believe that their controllers were female
>when in fact they were male.
>
my main point is here that if you are _SO CONCERNED_ about the 'sensitive
things' you wish to disclose to someone (a female), you should think twice
about telling someone over the internet...you can never know for sure unless
you've actually met someone. if you are worried about it, just don't talk
about it on a mu*. otherwise, you can't blame someone for not being what
you thought they were. in my case, i do actually play a female character,
and so it isn't a problem. however, were i to be playing a male char., and
a female began to open up to me (ie tell me deeply personal things), i would
tell her i was uncomfortable with the conversation, and ask her to stop.
>>
>>as i said--this person seems to be putting far too much trust into a system
>>which is based on creativity and fabrication...vr is for fun, and if you
>>need to be sure abou the people you 'open up' to, do it in rl..
>>
> Creativity is one thing. Lying is another. The fact that this
>is a role-playing game does not justify the latter.
i will not deny that lying is a bad idea when rl is concerned. the problem
here is that i consider vr to have very little to do with rl. i don't use
vr to make rl friends..sometimes this just happens, but i don't try to help
it along. in vr, lies are the truth. but only in vr. that's why it's not rl.
otherwise, what's the point? you might as well just not play at all, and
use the internet personals to meet people.
>>>
>>>Marc Anderson
>>>ande...@ucsu.colorado.edu
Scott Goehring
>Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character.
Interesting that you use "guy" and "girl" and not "male" and "female"
or "man" and "woman". "Guy" is nowhere near as diminutive as "girl".
>But I put two conditions on it.
Oh, dear, he's making rules.
>One: They dont go around hitting on guys.
Do you care if VR males (played by RL females) hit on VR females? Why
or why not?
>I have seen a few of my friends get involved in Mud-Relationships...
>only to learn after a long time that there was a guy at the other
>end. This is after alot of personal conversations had gone on. As a
>guy I know easy it is to talk about problems to someone you think is
>a girl. They weren't happy campers when they found out the truth.
Funny. I've found that it's easiest for me to talk about personal
matters with people I trust. Neither gender nor sexual preference
have anything to do with this, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Others might feel that they can't trust men (or women), for whatever
reason. I won't get into this.
Now, if somebody *LIED* to you about their RL gender (not merely
refused to answer), then you'd have grounds not to trust him(her) with
RL matters. This is so obvious as to be trivial. It also doesn't
mean that you can't continue to have a VR relationship with the
character in question. Or, for that matter, a RL one; you just can't
trust him(her) as much because of it.
>And Two: They don't run a female just so they can get extra help in
>starting out a new character.
If the system is sexist, you might as well take advantage of it.
>This is under-handed and shows they don't wish to put much work into
>thier character.
No, it's proof that sexism is alive and well on muds everywhere (or at
least the ones you play).
>I've seen guys lead other players on and laugh about it at thier term
>next to me.
Intentionally trying to deceive another person is callous. However,
any fool who believes that a mud description (including gender flags)
corresponds to real life is gullible in the extreme, and quite
certainly deserves whatever shock (s)he gets from it when (s)he finds
out otherwise.
>I've also seen guys run "prostitute" char to make money and equip for
>thier real character.
Hey, I played a prostitute once. It was amusing. Many thanks to my
pimp, Insane Hermit. :)
>Basically......I'm a guy.....My real characters are guys....As it
>should be.
Why "should [it] be"? Is there some reason why males are incapable of
behaving in a feminine way, or should not behave in such a fashion?
I've found it very enlightening to have played female characters, and
will continue to do so, even if I should be playing males (although I
do that too).
--
Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
Scott Goehring
>Sigh. The mere fact that this state of affairs can exist makes me
>really unhappy about how RL women's lib is going.
Women's lib is seriously stuck, and will be until we get George
"Family Values" Bush out of office (at least that'll be a move in the
right direction). Remember that, under "Family Values", a woman is
supposed to be married and home caring for her husband's house and
children. Dare I say "barefoot and pregnant"?
But I digress.
>Since yduJ (my main social character) and Nosredna (my wizard
>character) are both highly visible on LambdaMOO they aren't subject
>to most of the weird social things that happen to female characters.
>People think twice before hitting on someone who's answer might be
>"@toad" instead of "no" :-)
Geez, I wish I had been so lucky back when I was wizzing on BruceMud.
Admittedly, BruceMud attracted more than its usual share of weenies,
but as a female wizard I received even more attention for being female
than I did on most other sites. Note that it wasn't exactly a secret
that I was crossplaying. I seem to recall Random bitching at Julia
for reporting that I was female on more than one occasion. :)
>Earlier in this thread someone said that he "hits on the females and
>buddies with the males". This disturbs me. Why can you not be a
>buddy with a female?
Because girls are ikky and no self-respecting man would have a GIRL as
a friend unless he wanted to boink her. Right?
Seriously, men are taught by our society that women are to be used as
sex objects and little more. It's only been in the last couple of
decades that this mold is starting to break. Unfortunately, many
(most) male mudders have been inculcated with this message (even if
not consciously) and act according to it, unless they explicitly try
not to.
Scott Goehring
>gt9...@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher R. Boggs) writes:
>> Basically I have no problem with a guy running a girl character.
>>But I put two conditions on it. One: They dont go around hitting on
>>guys. I have seen a few of my friends get involved in
>>Mud-Relationships.....Only to learn after a long time that there was
>>a guy at the other end.
>The only reason I can think of that this might be a problem is if
>you're homophobic.
No. If you've made the assumption that the person on the other end is
of a given gender, and you later find out they're not, it invalidates
a part of your view of reality. If you've built up a good-sized store
of additional assumptions based on that gender assumption, then they
all come crashing down around you, which can be most disconcerting.
Of course, if you avoid making assumptions about gender, and avoid
making assumptions based on gender, then you'll be a lot safer in the
long run, both in VR and in RL.