Crossroads Opening
Conrad Wong
C R O S S R O A D S
Now opening on August 17, 12:00 PM PDT (3:00 PM EDT)
coyote.cs.wmich.edu 5823 / 141.218.40.40 5823
We are now accepting applications in advance for the opening. (see below
for instructions) Show up Saturday and join in on the tours of Crossroads
and the Realms, or wander around and explore the quieter areas by yourself
or with friends. There will be an opening ceremony at 8 PM PDT (11 PM EDT).
To apply for a character on Crossroads:
* log into Crossroads (telnet to coyote.cs.wmich.edu 5823
or to 141.218.40.40 5823)
* type "connect Guest Guest"
* read the new users' guide to Crossroads policy
* type "apply" to use our automated applications system (if you have a
valid E-mail address, please supply it here so we can mail you back
if there are any problems)
* once your application has been read and approved, your character will
be created with the name and password you requested
* connect with your name and password, then change your password
with "@password <old password> = <newpassword>"
* you will begin in Crossroads' new users' introduction
Some Crossroads Features:
* easy access via the Greataway to the diverse worlds of Crossroads
- Thealir, a fantasy world featuring a complete role-playing system
- St. Theresa, a world of alternate history in the 18-19th century
- Rubble Point, an elaborate adventure at the end of the universe
- Eilsweir, a faraway place of unicorns past and present
- Crystal Bridge, a quiet scenic park area of many seasons
* complete services and facilities available in Elyse, our headquarters
- Calliope Hall, the new user's introduction
- Genesis Complex, the builder's starting point
- Murphy's Court, for presentations, lectures, and conferences
- the Hostel and Greataway Travellers' Society
* programs to aid our users and builders
- the latest in MUD-wide electronic mail and news
- an extensive help system including many programs and features
- page, finger, where, status, and more commands for user convenience
- transparent exits, obvious exits, long descriptions, timed messages,
MIST (a language available to all builders), broadcasters, and many
more tools for builders
* the MUCK 2.2fb server, including
- connect and disconnect actions
- the "terse" flag, allowing you to skip room descriptions
- propdirs, a new way to organize properties to speed up programs
- local variables for programs
- many new primitives to make MUF more powerful, including the ability
to create new objects, rooms, and exits, put program calls on a
timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
__ ___ ___ _/' Name: Conrad Wong (UCB CS senior)
/ \ _/ \----' \-' c`-o Mail to: cw...@sim.berkeley.edu
| | / > __/_ / __/_`, _| or: cw...@ocf.berkeley.edu
\__/ \____\`--\____\ ;/' Opinion: what opinion?
Ken Arromdee
>Some Crossroads Features:
..
> - local variables for programs
> - many new primitives to make MUF more powerful, including the ability
> to create new objects, rooms, and exits, put program calls on a
> timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
These are not features, since there is no way for normal users to take
advantage of it. Advertising it as a feature is roughly equivalent to
advertising "database dumps on our mud are in a new easy-to-read format"
as a feature, or for a store to advertise "special! our goods come with
new SKU numbers!"
--
"What is your name?"
"Vicki."
"For what purpose are the arms needed?"
"Revolution!"
Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
INTERNET: arro...@cs.jhu.edu)
Ken Arromdee
fingers don't.
--Jiro-tachi
Lee Brintle
>> - local variables for programs
>> - many new primitives to make MUF more powerful, including the ability
>> to create new objects, rooms, and exits, put program calls on a
>> timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
>
>These are not features, since there is no way for normal users to take
>advantage of it. Advertising it as a feature is roughly equivalent to
>advertising "database dumps on our mud are in a new easy-to-read format"
>as a feature, or for a store to advertise "special! our goods come with
>new SKU numbers!"
On the contrary, the server changes can be used by anyone. For example,
to make a message arrive in a room 30 seconds after they arrive, any builder
can enter:
@succ here=@5341 30 me A waiter arrives to take your order.
30 seconds after the person arrives in the room, the message "A waiter arrives
to take your order." appears. Crossroads has written many progrms using these
new features that can be used by the general public. Another example:
@build -center ne=Northern Gate
Will @dig a room (Northern Gate), @open an exit (northeast;ne) leading from
the current room to the new room, center the new room's name, @open an
exit (southwest;sw;out) from the new room back to the current room, and put
appropriate messages on everything (succs, descs, and drops). This command
utilizes those features that were mentioned (new room, new exit), but is
available to all builders (all players).
--
Lee Brintle | ``And so, I leave you with this final word:
Leepfrog / Tanj | twang.''
Ken Arromdee
>>These are not features, since there is no way for normal users to take
>>advantage of it. Advertising it as a feature is roughly equivalent to
>>advertising "database dumps on our mud are in a new easy-to-read format"
>>as a feature, or for a store to advertise "special! our goods come with
>>new SKU numbers!"
>On the contrary, the server changes can be used by anyone.
So can an SKU number in a store. To "use" it, you merely bring your item to a
cashier, and they will punch in the SKU number and that rings up the price
of the item. Of course, the customer really doesn't care whether they use new
SKU numbers, old SKU numbers, or just read the price tags to get the price.
Creating a room, from a mortal's standpoint, looks pretty much the same
whether or not the room-creation command is implemented as a server mod or as
a program which uses server mods. But the implication in the announcement was
that the fact that it's done via a program is part of what makes it a really
neat feature. If mortals cannot program such things, there is really no
difference between the two from a mortal's perspective, and thus the fact that
it is done one way instead of the other is not a feature at all.
Scott Goehring
>Even though `mortals' (read: non-muckers, in this case) cannot access the
>new server commands directly, many programs have been created for public use.
>These programs, which use these new mods and would be impossible without them,
>make life a lot easier for builder, players, and muckers on this new muck.
read:
We have lots of neato little toys that you can play with. of course,
most of them don't make that much of a difference, and you can't
*really* be interesting unless you have a mucker bit, which we aren't
going to give you anyway, but at least you can feel superior to all
those other muds where they don't have neato little commands like
ours. meanwhile we are going to gloat about how great we really are,
while the rest of you go off and play with moo, which does everything
we do anyway and doesn't have a lot of messy politics surrounding it,
either.
did i get it right?
--
It's because you...piss...me...off. -- Russ Smith, in rec.games.mud,
said to Bruce Woodcock
Ken Arromdee
>>Creating a room, from a mortal's standpoint, looks pretty much the same
>>whether or not the room-creation command is implemented as a server mod or as
>>a program which uses server mods.
>@open/@desc/@succ/@osucc/@drop commands it supplements as a packet of mixed
>nuts has with the entire east wing of the Asyerian State Mental Hospital.
Yes, but if the @build command was built into the server it would still look
pretty much like a MUF one from a user's standpoint.
> Even though `mortals' (read: non-muckers, in this case) cannot access the
>new server commands directly, many programs have been created for public use.
>These programs, which use these new mods and would be impossible without them,
>make life a lot easier for builder, players, and muckers on this new muck.
If that's so, I'll stop arguing (well, stop arguing within this thread, anyway
:-)). The ad to which I responded only said that the mods are available for
Muckers, and implied that that was in itself good. (And also mentioned other
things whose benefits, unlike those of room building, do not trickle down to
the mortals much; for instance, local variables in MUF programs).
Lee Brintle
>whether or not the room-creation command is implemented as a server mod or as
>a program which uses server mods.
Er... I disagree. The @build command has as much in common with the @dig/
@open/@desc/@succ/@osucc/@drop commands it supplements as a packet of mixed
nuts has with the entire east wing of the Asyerian State Mental Hospital.
(Er.. actually, it has a lot in common, but I really love that expression.)
In addition, extra security (which is implemented in MUF) enables better
environment sharing, which makes life a hellofalot easier for projects that
involve more than one builder. Without being a mucker.
>If mortals cannot program such things, there is really no
>difference between the two from a mortal's perspective, and thus the fact that
>it is done one way instead of the other is not a feature at all.
For People Unclear On the Concept:
Even though `mortals' (read: non-muckers, in this case) cannot access the
new server commands directly, many programs have been created for public use.
These programs, which use these new mods and would be impossible without them,
make life a lot easier for builder, players, and muckers on this new muck.
You do not have to have a Mucker bit to realize the advantages of these
servers; the programs written around those changes are available to all,
and are powerful additions to the mucking environment. If you choose not
to use the commands because they involve primitives that you, as a non-mucker,
cannot access, then by all means, don't.
Judy Anderson
> meanwhile we are going to gloat about how great we really are,
>while the rest of you go off and play with moo, which does everything
>we do anyway and doesn't have a lot of messy politics surrounding it,
>either.
yduJ cheers! Yes, please come visit us on LambdaMOO. We aren't
having any parties, or doing anything special... Heck, I don't even
know when our anniversary is. We're just "there".
yduJ on LambdaMOO yd...@lucid.com 'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge'
[ LambdaMOO is lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888 / 13.2.116.36 8888 ]
Sean Barrett
* In article <76...@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> lbri...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu writes:
* >ken> [whether @build is in the server or in muf is irrelevent to mortals]
* >[@build is vastly different from @open,@desc, etc.]
*
* Yes, but if the @build command was built into the server it would still look
* pretty much like a MUF one from a user's standpoint.
*/
Can we put this one to rest? This may be so, Jiro/Mizue/Ken, but it is
irrelevent to whether it is valid to advertise it.
/*
* >[mortals may not directly see it, but they do indirectly; the stuff the
* > mortals see would not be possible without the server mods]
*/
Nevertheless, it *is* irrelevent to the mortals *where* the changes are,
and see below.
/*
* The ad to which I responded only said that the mods are available for
* Muckers, and implied that that was in itself good. (And also mentioned other
* things whose benefits, unlike those of room building, do not trickle down to
* the mortals much; for instance, local variables in MUF programs).
*/
You had a good complaint to begin with, Jiro/Mizue/Ken, but you lost
it in the swarm of followups. Let me dig back into the original
article:
/* cwong writes:
* Some Crossroads Features:
* * programs to aid our users and builders
* - the latest in MUD-wide electronic mail and news
* - transparent exits, obvious exits, long descriptions,
* timed messages,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
* MIST (a language available to all builders), broadcasters, and
* many more tools for builders
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*
* * the MUCK 2.2fb server, including
* - connect and disconnect actions
* - the "terse" flag, allowing you to skip room descriptions
* - propdirs, a new way to organize properties to speed up programs
irrelevent to mortals
* - local variables for programs
irrelevent to mortals
* - many new primitives to make MUF more powerful, including the
* ability
* to create new objects, rooms, and exits,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is useless information; better to describe the tools like @build.
* put program calls on a
* timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
^^^^^^^^^^^
redundant; see the thing above about timed messages. Since mortals
have no access to MUF, this feature is unimportant to mortals beyond
the carry-over to MIST.
* timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
irrelevent to mortals
*/
However, note that the section, as headed, purports to describe a
new version of TinyMUCK. If the intention is to release the source
of 2.2fb to the public, then this is useful information, just
presented in, perhaps, the wrong place.
Jim W Lai
>whether or not the room-creation command is implemented as a server mod or as
>If mortals cannot program such things, there is really no
>difference between the two from a mortal's perspective, and thus the fact that
>it is done one way instead of the other is not a feature at all.
Perhaps the "feature" is the modification, rather than the implementation of
the modification? Or do you consider "built-ins" not to be "features"? At
best you could say the original wording was vague on the matter.
I suppose this depends on whether you view programmability on a MUD to be
something that should be available to all, or merely a tool for fast
prototyping of server functions. Taken to its logical extreme, which Moo
is heading in, very little has to be built-in at all. Programmability
also makes it easy to mess up and inadvertently spam a database. Database
protection under a programmable environment is an open problem, IMHO.
I believe Uber implemented chmod permissions similar to Unix. While this
may help control the problem, it's not a solution.
Foxen
>However, note that the section, as headed, purports to describe a
>new version of TinyMUCK. If the intention is to release the source
>of 2.2fb to the public, then this is useful information, just
>presented in, perhaps, the wrong place.
Yah, it's gonna be public, but I still have about 15 more mods to add to
the sucker. Then I have to have it all documented. Then I have to get
MUCK2.2 vanilla again to check against to make a 'releasable' version of
the code with all the docs, and a startup minimaldb. Then I have to send
it off to Chup. Truth is, I don't know if it's gonna be finished to the
point where I can send it to chup for another month or two. Some idea or
another keeps coming up, and I add it to the list. Talk about projects
getting out of hand. I suppose I should just pick an arbitrary point and
just release it and do the rest for 2.2fb2, but it's still gonna be a few
weeks before it's ready.
Please... if you have some great fantastic idea for the server, and you
want to be famous for your part in server hacking...
Don't bother me about it. Just wait till what I'm hacking comes out and
do it yourself, if it needs it. I need a vacation from writing this
'game'.
- Foxen (Former Tygryss)
--
___ __ ___ _ . _^^ ____ fo...@netcom.com
\ / | | \ | | | -> '-" \______/___/ Another Fine Furry Fan
`v' |-- |--< |--- `v' ' ,| _____ | "Support the Church of the
| |___ | \ | o //|| ||| Holy Furr of Bastis!"
jim miller
>For People Unclear On the Concept:
> Even though `mortals' (read: non-muckers, in this case) cannot access the
>new server commands directly, many programs have been created for public use.
>These programs, which use these new mods and would be impossible without them,
>make life a lot easier for builder, players, and muckers on this new muck.
>You do not have to have a Mucker bit to realize the advantages of these
>servers; the programs written around those changes are available to all,
>and are powerful additions to the mucking environment. If you choose not
>to use the commands because they involve primitives that you, as a non-mucker,
>cannot access, then by all means, don't.
>Lee Brintle
Looking back at the announcement:
> * programs to aid our users and builders
> - the latest in MUD-wide electronic mail and news
> - an extensive help system including many programs and features
> - page, finger, where, status, and more commands for user convenience
> - transparent exits, obvious exits, long descriptions, timed messages,
> MIST (a language available to all builders), broadcasters, and many
> more tools for builders
>
> * the MUCK 2.2fb server, including
> - connect and disconnect actions
> - the "terse" flag, allowing you to skip room descriptions
> - propdirs, a new way to organize properties to speed up programs
*> - local variables for programs
*> - many new primitives to make MUF more powerful, including the ability
*> to create new objects, rooms, and exits, put program calls on a
*> timed queue, perform bitwise operations, and more
If the intent of the announcement was to show what enhancements to
Crossroads I, a (would-be) average, unfavored user would be able to
substantially appreciate, then listing at least the items marked with
an (*) is inappropriate, because the management of Crossroads has been
historically tight-fisted and arbitrary about whom they choose to give
a Mucker bit, and substantially appreciating the marked mods does require
one. Is MUF more powerful? Well great, then if you are advertising its
new advantages, then I sure hope you're ready to allow the large group
of MUF programmers out there (a bright group, by the way, that is allowed
to program freely on almost all other Mucks, including Mucks with many
server mods that have posted similar advertisements here, and that
is used to, for good reason, being able to PLAY with the language) to
show their skills on Crossroads.
If the plan for Crossroads will be to allow a hand-picked group of
programmers create programs for everyone else, then make that unusual
policy clear, so that players who are interested in programming
do not waste their time. It's fine and dandy that programs have
been created for players to use, but...we're capable, ya know?
What will be the Mucker bit policy on the public Crossroads?
--
Jim Miller |
j...@ais.org |
Marcus J. Ranum
>Taken to its logical extreme, which Moo
>is heading in, very little has to be built-in at all.
UberMUD was exactly that. The whole "universe rules" of the MUD
was interpreted - all that was built-in was a means of tokenizing the
player's input and generating a function call based on it. Once that
was done, everything else was mutable. So UberMUD didn't really have
any commands at all - just a mess of assignment operators, string
operators, and so forth, from which you built everything else. I
caution against going that route, since it turns out that debugging
universe rules is a royal pain. On the other hand, you *CAN* do
anything you like, including implementing rooms as n-dimensional
spaces stored in n-ary trees. (and fast!)
>Programmability
>also makes it easy to mess up and inadvertently spam a database.
It's more subtle than that. It goes *FAR* beyond just spamming
a database - the problem is that there is no standard format for what
a totally meta-MUD's database looks like. It's just a mess of variables
with no real meaning unless viewed in the light of the EXACT set of
universe rules they were created under. This means that dumping and
restoring a database is almost impossible. This means that transferring
databases *IS* impossible. This means that making modifications to
the universe rules is damnably hard.
Most of the problems with UberMUD databases revolved around
the "well, so my db is weird, how can I fix it?" problem. Well - you
can't - unless you write your own database consistency checker for
exactly your type of universe... And it's DAMN hard to check a world
for consistency while you're running within its context! Ask Goedel.
This factor more than any other is what caused me to abandon UberMUD
as an evolutionary path and focus on UnterMUD. People who are at least
somewhat familiar with UnterMUD will notice the emphasis has shifted
to making the universe rules fairly fixed but somewhat localizable,
and with a considerable emphasis on making objects somewhat more
meaningful between servers.
>I believe Uber implemented chmod permissions similar to Unix. While this
>may help control the problem, it's not a solution.
It's not even close to a solution. UberMUD had per-*attribute*
permissions and ownership. For example, I could make my player object's
name world-writeable, and people could rename me. In fact, in the
UberMUD I ran player names were owned by the wizard and were readable
only. The UberMUD permissions system included a notion of setuid bits
on functions as well. (Functions were primary data objects and could
be assigned or taken the address of via a pointer, somewhat like C)
I very quickly realized that though the permissions system provided
the ultimate in flexibility, it was 99.9% unused - everyone just
made stuff setuid. :) This is another reason UnterMUD's permissions
system is simple - it's a distillation of what I saw being used
99% of the time in UberMUD.
while(1) {
Implement;
experiment;
ponder;
throw away;
abstract;
}
mjr.
--
public key: 0x9817A19372CC74818B713A5017352379G9117918A43938ED4389012918
918AC847272C1939894849A83378840412
Cyberpixie
>If the plan for Crossroads will be to allow a hand-picked group of
>programmers create programs for everyone else, then make that unusual
>policy clear, so that players who are interested in programming
>do not waste their time. It's fine and dandy that programs have
>been created for players to use, but...we're capable, ya know?
S'not really a question of capable or not, I think. (No, I'm not
trying to speak for XR, this is my own opinion.)
See, as can be easily shown, a MUCKER bit is about as powerful as a
WIZARD bit. I'm no MUF wizard, but I can do just about anything I
want with MUF. There are things an M bit can do that a W bit can't.
Even without building primitives, you can do a lot of damage to a MUCK
with an M bit.
I'd suggest that rather than it being a patronizing policy to restrict
M bits, it's a reasonable policy. If a wizard trusts his or her users
to the point where anyone can have an M bit, that's great -- but it
isn't something that should be expected, any more than you should
expect a wizard to give you a W bit for the asking.
Now, many wizards feel that they can trust people not to attack them,
for whatever reason -- some are out of the public eye, some are real
communities, whatever. However, I think XR might be justified in a
bit of paranoia, considering what they have already dealt with as far
as malicious damage goes. Let me put it this way: would you be
willing to guarantee XR that nobody would take advantage of an M bit
to try and damage the database? If not, I don't think you have the
right to tell them that they should give out M bits freely.
--
Bryant Durrell dur...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have big DICKS! 'Cause we are BULDGE!"
-- Buldge, fall 1988, Boston
jim miller
>In article <RY?F3...@irie.ais.org> j...@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>>If the plan for Crossroads will be to allow a hand-picked group of
>>programmers create programs for everyone else, then make that unusual
>>policy clear, so that players who are interested in programming
>>do not waste their time. It's fine and dandy that programs have
>>been created for players to use, but...we're capable, ya know?
....
>Now, many wizards feel that they can trust people not to attack them,
>for whatever reason -- some are out of the public eye, some are real
>communities, whatever. However, I think XR might be justified in a
>bit of paranoia, considering what they have already dealt with as far
>as malicious damage goes. Let me put it this way: would you be
>willing to guarantee XR that nobody would take advantage of an M bit
>to try and damage the database? If not, I don't think you have the
>right to tell them that they should give out M bits freely.
>Bryant Durrell dur...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
Paranoia may be part of the reason that they would choose not to grant
M bits to more than a select group (I'm still interested in what the
Mucker policy will be), but I have a feeling M bits would be restricted
anyway.
They can do what they want; I am not telling them what to do with their mud.
But it IS patronizing to flaunt features of their server to a Usenet
audience of programmers, if those features will not be available to
that audience. We've seen similar ads for other Mucks, and we expect
to be able to USE what is advertised.
If the server description was couched in an article whose purpose was
technical, to announce a new release, then a complete detailing of
features would be appropriate, as other people have noted. But this
wasn't; it was a sales pitch to come play with all the neat things
we've listed here.
--
Jim Miller j...@ais.org
Judy Anderson
> Programmability
>also makes it easy to mess up and inadvertently spam a database. Database
>protection under a programmable environment is an open problem, IMHO.
>I believe Uber implemented chmod permissions similar to Unix.
MOO has permissions that work basically like this: If you wrote the
verb, it runs with "your permissions", and you are only allowed to
change those objects which either you own, or are publicly writable.
(Really, it lets you change those *properties* which you own, and
properties on an object can be owned by different people than the
object on which they are instantiated.)
If a verb was written by a wizard, it runs with wizard permissions,
and can change any object. More usefully, it can lie about whose
permissions it wants to use with a special primitive set_task_perms().
Generally wizard owned verbs on core objects set their permissions to
those of the invoking player, so when you say @create the object
created ends up being owned by you rather than the author of the
@create verb.
Since your verbs can only change things you own, it makes cooperative
programming a bit more of a pain (although not impossible), and when
others might create children of your generic object you have to be
pretty careful about which properties you let them own and on which
properties you retain ownership. But generally this is quite secure
against database spamming, since any one person can only change their
own objects.
Permissions are actually implmented as object numbers: when you ask
for the permissions of the calling verb, you get the object number of
the player whose permissions were being used.
John Random Bizarre
->read:
->
->We have lots of neato little toys that you can play with. of course,
->most of them don't make that much of a difference, and you can't
->*really* be interesting unless you have a mucker bit, which we aren't
->going to give you anyway, but at least you can feel superior to all
->those other muds where they don't have neato little commands like
->ours.
Of course, this a blatant untruth that Scott thought he could perpetrate
with malice because after all nobody likes anyone that likes Crossroads
anyway.
Or not.
Shut up, Scott. You're hitting the f key too easily again.
->did i get it right?
About as right as can be expected of you when the posting fever hits you.
There are VERY useful tools set up for Joe Building Fool on CrossRoads,
and that is the simple truth. I don't use CrossRoads as a favor to the
wizards, whom I only seem to get along with sporadically. I don't use
CrossRoads because I owe any favors. I don't use it because I'm a wizard
(because, of course, I'm NOT one). I use it because it provides
easy-to-use building aid that isn't really available elsewhere.
Period.
-Random
( not that this will stop people
from running off at the mouth
and speaking of what they have
not even bothered to ask about,
you understand. )
--
---------------------"Comedy. Sudden, violent, comedy!"---------------------
Random J Nightfall//ru...@hardy.math.okstate.edu//No disclaimer...just a clue:
This was by a techno-christian-scottish-barbarian-libertarian-historian-guru.
"Acid is like a woman: a good one will eat right through your pants." -S.N.L.
King_Claudius
>There are VERY useful tools set up for Joe Building Fool on CrossRoads,
>and that is the simple truth. I don't use CrossRoads as a favor to the
>wizards, whom I only seem to get along with sporadically. I don't use
>CrossRoads because I owe any favors. I don't use it because I'm a wizard
>(because, of course, I'm NOT one). I use it because it provides
>easy-to-use building aid that isn't really available elsewhere.
They are useful, but really aren't that difficult to install in any MUCK, if the
need was seen. We here at PythonMUCK [yeah, we're just a bunch of newbies with
hopes in our hearts] are hoping to share with the users the new-found
capabilities we've installed. I'll leave the actual release of info to Doran,
for she is the one who wants to blab about how great our mud is/will be.
Basically what I've been hearing, and feeling is this:
*XRs starts up with a private _select few_ people who are deemed worthy.
*The opening is announced, and lots of neato toys which probably could have been
done in a month, occurs a year later. Although I'm sure Foxen has installed
lots of neato games and toys and list managers and the like, the general user
won't notice them much. Yawn.
*The people who will arrive won't get much of a chance to play around because
most of the stuff was designed with the furry attitude: only the worthy get
the M bit. Yawn.
*The code that resulted from the changes, is it going to be public? I assume
so, since Foxen has said he is going to release the code eventually. Although
it would be nice to get just simple patches for each little twist you guys put
on the code, instead of asking us to hack yours apart to find out how things
work. [or don't work, for that matter]
>Period.
Question mark.
Ok, summary: I think that the work done there on XR is nice, but not really
outstanding or unusual...and certainly not worth the year's worth of effort. I
guess most of the delays have been because of administration, or as we shall
call it, the grand BUREAUCRACY!
--
clau...@zeus.calpoly.edu --- King_Claudius ---
Jim W Lai
>They can do what they want; I am not telling them what to do with their mud.
>But it IS patronizing to flaunt features of their server to a Usenet
>audience of programmers, if those features will not be available to
>that audience. We've seen similar ads for other Mucks, and we expect
>to be able to USE what is advertised.
A better question would be: would all these nifty features be available
in a release of the server code? If it is, then programmers do have
access to these features, just not necessarily on that mud.
>If the server description was couched in an article whose purpose was
>technical, to announce a new release, then a complete detailing of
>features would be appropriate, as other people have noted. But this
>wasn't; it was a sales pitch to come play with all the neat things
>we've listed here.
So what's wrong with making a sales pitch and then allowing only a
select few to directly use them?
GrimJim, who had never asked for MUCKER or WIZARD privs on principle
Felix Sebastian Ortony
>[long description of why he thinks XR is mediocre and how he regards
> the various enhancements to MUCK they made as tricks and how he thinks
> it'd be nice if they provided context diffs for him instead of making
> him actually look at their code]
Nobody asked for your opinion, and frankly, I can see why. Previously,
I had thought the phenomenon of players being demanding of their wizards
and screaming when they didn't get exactly what they wanted was limited
primarily to LPMuds. Not everyone's going to like what XR does, or how
they do it, or what the Random gang does, or how they do it, but rarely
have I seen less reason to post than yours. You haven't even seen XR
run. Isn't that a bit pathetic, to flame a program and say yours is
better when you haven't laid a finger on it, or read the code? Isn't it
a bit ridiculous and egotistical to expect that the XR authors will
gratefully supply context diffs of their programs, which they wrote for
free, to you, a member of the sneering hoi polloi, submitting it for your
approval and for your pre-ordained disdain? Are you of the mistaken
impression that there is some group of humans out there which lives for
your opinion of something which you have absolutely no idea about? Are
you of the impression that these people are on the internet, rather than
in a sanitarium? Do you feel your posting contains any sort of useful
information? ..Which could not have been adequately expressed, for instance,
in e-mail or via page?
Of the several thousand people who read rec.games.mud daily in the hope of
finding some vestige of signal, some information, perhaps an announcement
of a new mud which was written in an attempt to stay at or define the cutting
edge of textual virtual reality technology, how many do you think really give
a good goddamn about your opinions concerning a program you have never even
seen, "King Claudius"?
I'm not a Crossroads anything, nor do I intend to be. I am, however, very
sick of reading completely unjustified flame posts in this newsgroup. It's
really no wonder that I have to defend mudding and you babies in front of
network administrators and sci.virtual-worlds against charges that it's a
chat line for pre-adolescent latchkey imbeciles and drooling impotent D&D-
crazed computer science freshmen. Perhaps one day the collective gestalt
that is the pond scum undergrowth of rec.games.mud will realize by osmosis
that slamming something because you can will not make you more intelligent
or attractive.
>--
>clau...@zeus.calpoly.edu --- King_Claudius ---
Sean Barrett
>So clau...@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius) says:
>ru...@littlewood.math.okstate.edu (John "Random" Bizarre) writes:
>>There are VERY useful tools set up for Joe Building Fool on CrossRoads,
>>and that is the simple truth.
>
>They are useful, but really aren't that difficult to install in any MUCK, if the
It isn't difficult to format your text to about 70 columns, either.
That doesn't mean anyone actually does it, and it doesn't mean it's
something people SHOULDN'T post about, which is supposedly the point.
>Basically what I've been hearing, and feeling is this:
>*XRs starts up with a private _select few_ people who are deemed worthy.
If you're building a house, I suppose you could just let anyone
come along and help out. You might be more satisfied with the
results if you fence the place off while you're setting up.
Then you might let people in to help out with interior decorations,
or let someone build a doghouse out front, or a treehouse out back.
This is not a 'we're better than you' issue.
>*The people who will arrive won't get much of a chance to play around because
>most of the stuff was designed with the furry attitude: only the worthy get
>the M bit. Yawn.
Yeah. The asylum attitude is 'only the worthy get the M bit', and noone
is. How naughty. The point, I thought, was to pretend it's just a
MUCK 1.* or a MUSH or some other non-programmable mud [1]; MUF is just
there for the universe-designers.
[1] Don't mention MIST, it's irrelevent to my point, OKAY? [2]
[2] This was only provided because SOMEBODY would have had to follow
it up to correct me, I know.
>*The code that resulted from the changes, is it going to be public? I assume
>so, since Foxen has said he is going to release the code eventually.
An amazing piece of deduction.
>Although
>it would be nice to get just simple patches for each little twist you guys put
>on the code, instead of asking us to hack yours apart to find out how things
>work. [or don't work, for that matter]
Uh huh. (1) Someone else modifies their server, offers it to the
public as a public service, and you knock them for not going to
enough slavish effort to make things easy for you to be lazy.
(2) If you think the code doesn't work, why do you want it to
come in nice little patches?
>>Period.
>
>Question mark.
No, period. The original post may have lapsed by hailing the MUF
advantages in a mud announcement instead of merely explaining the
advantages to builders and saving the server info for a separate
announcement, but, I imagine, it was a case of the poster wanting
to share as much info with us as possible and not realizing that
in the context of the post, given that ordinary players don't have
access to MUF, MUF features aren't particularly features of the mud,
and that the description of the MUF features could be interpreted
as a "false lure", as some seem to have read it, or, as others have
seen it, as an insult. (110 words! Do I win?)
>Ok, summary: I think that the work done there on XR is nice, but not really
>outstanding or unusual...and certainly not worth the year's worth of effort. I
I'm glad you're an expert on the work on XR... how much have you been
on it? I've never been on it, and I have no idea, but I notice that
nothing of what you've done above implies that you know any more about
it than I do.
>guess most of the delays have been because of administration, or as we shall
>call it, the grand BUREAUCRACY!
Call it what you like. If you don't like it, don't call it. Simple.
buz...@eng.umd.edu
I'm not affiliated with CrossRoads. I've never been on it. I don't
really plan on being on it. I don't have any friends I'm sticking up
for on CrossRoads. I just think you people are being asinine about
a simple post. Of course, I suppose that this is par for the course.
John Random Bizarre
->They are useful, but really aren't that difficult to install in any MUCK, if the
->need was seen.
The fact that none other has makes me very sad, then. They're useful. I
have yet to use MIST or MUCK or any of that shit when building on CrossRoads,
because the builder's tools are bloody useful.
->Basically what I've been hearing, and feeling is this:
->*XRs starts up with a private _select few_ people who are deemed worthy.
Almost every mud starts up with select people to create the database, I think.
Examples available upon request.
->*The opening is announced, and lots of neato toys which probably could have been
->done in a month, occurs a year later. Although I'm sure Foxen has installed
->lots of neato games and toys and list managers and the like, the general user
->won't notice them much. Yawn.
Only if you sit here and whine and bitch and piss and moan instead of reading
the fairly decent document on builder's aid. And if you choose so, I'm not
going to feel too sorry.
->*The people who will arrive won't get much of a chance to play around because
->most of the stuff was designed with the furry attitude: only the worthy get
->the M bit. Yawn.
The *FURRY* attitude?
->*The code that resulted from the changes, is it going to be public? I assume
->so, since Foxen has said he is going to release the code eventually. Although
->it would be nice to get just simple patches for each little twist you guys put
->on the code, instead of asking us to hack yours apart to find out how things
->work. [or don't work, for that matter]
Foxen said she would. And as far as code versions go, this is a fact of life
you had best learn to deal with now. I refer you to early major version
changes of TinyMUCK for examples.
->Ok, summary: I think that the work done there on XR is nice, but not really
->outstanding or unusual...and certainly not worth the year's worth of effort. I
I think you're wrong about outstanding and unusual, and I hardly think that
any of us can judge "worth their effort." What's it to you, monkey boy?
I file this with just one more post by people who make crass assumptions
without knowing a damned thing. And suddenly, I understand what I saw when
Jerry_C torched someone for critquing Uber without even reading the docs
thoroughly.
The *FURRY* attitude? Visit the Amber area sometime, and you'll get
snuggled right into a greasy smear. Furry attitude, indeed.
-Random
( mind you, if it were MY mud, i'd've
invited the lot of you to piss off
and stay there and let interested
parties do some quality work )
--
---------------------"Comedy. Sudden, violent, comedy!"---------------------
Random J Nightfall//ru...@hardy.math.okstate.edu//No disclaimer...just a clue:
This was by a techno-christian-scottish-barbarian-libertarian-historian-guru.
"The difference between like and love is just that between spit and swallow."
Bruce Sterling Woodcock
1. Despite what many people would have thought, I didn't start the flames. :)
2. I personally do not have any qualms with the announcement, but I do agree
that their claims are not so grandiose when viewed within the light of their
MUCKER policy. However, most if not all of the changes will be passed down to
the user level in the form of MIST and world-accessible programs.
3. I do agree, however, that there is a certain level of cliqueishness (sp?)
and "we're better than you" attitudes prevelant in the CrossRoads adminis, but
no more than, say, Asylum. I do think they have a perfect right to be slightly
distrusting of their players; by the same token, I feel the players have every
right (and some reason) to distrust the administration there. I do not intend
this as a blanket statement, however; there are a few friends of mine whom I
respect that remain a part of the work on CrossRoads.
4. The level of beauracracy, controversy, and politics surrounding CrossRoads
certainly is more substantial than any other mud I have ever seen. Concern
over a wide variety of issues, like mucker policies, builders' rights, stealing
the works and ideas of others, nepotism, dictatorships, ego clashes, and
privacy concerns, many builders, administrators, and even players pulled up
stakes and left, their work, effort, and time wasted. Will it still be logging
all commands when it publicly opens? I don't know.
5. I long ago asked if both the server and MUF code were to be released, and
was assured it would be shortly after opening. So rather than deal with all
the problems there to use the "neat little toys" as someone put it, others
could implement similar muds with different policies. This, IMHO, is both
polite and productive to the general mudding community.
6. I also do not plan to be on CrossRoads much, for various reasons. I have
both personal and professional disputes with the way things are run there and
prefer to spend my time on places without such hassles. I will be able to
spend time with the people I want to elsewhere without having to worry about
privacy issues. And I have no inclination to build there, as I do not feel my
work would be safe or appreciated.
That's about all I have to say unless there are specific questions on certainpoints I mentioned; flames can be taken to /dev/null or the hopefully soon-to-be
created rec.games.mud.advocacy. :) (Say, isn't it time for a CFD again?)
Bruce
--
------------------------ wood...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu ------------------------
Yes. We fuck. Often, and with great enjoyment of the act. We aren't married,
we use birth control, we use interesting little toys on occasion. We moan like
beasts in heat. Life is *great*. -- Garrett, ref. to Tif, on alt.brother-jed.
Brian Kendig
>They are useful, but really aren't that difficult to install in any MUCK, if
>the need was seen.
Correct; the building tools that Crossroads has implemented aren't
difficult to add to any MUCK (except for the ones that depend on the
2.2fb server mods). However, there is one important thing to note:
No one _has_ added them to any other MUCK. Either (a) no one else has
seen the need to create powerful building tools in MUF when the @dig
and @open commands are already present, (b) no one else has thought of
making tools like these, or (c) no one else felt like going to the
trouble of programming them.
Several people have gone to great pains to develop powerful programs
for Crossroads. They exist, there, right now. Random says that he
builds on Crossroads because the tools there are useful; you say that
doesn't matter because anyone could install such tools? I'd advise
you to try the Crossroads building environment to get a feel for it,
then come up with your own programs for your own MUCK, and advertise
it to your heart's content.
>Basically what I've been hearing, and feeling is this:
>*XRs starts up with a private _select few_ people who are deemed worthy.
Precisely. The database is run by Lynx, and he chose a handful of
people whom he knows well and can easily get along with to help him
design it. They've done a lot of hard work there in pursuit of
something they believe in. Now that the MUCK is open and ready to be
enjoyed, anyone is free to apply for a character there. Are you
complaining that you wanted to help write MUF code and build Realms?
Did you send mail to Lynx while it was being built and ask him if you
could help?
The building phase was just that: a building phase. The builders
didn't want players on the database chatting while things were being
built; that would be like letting people run around in Disneyland
while the attractions were still under construction: sure, they would
be physically _able_ to, but why let them? There were plenty of other
places to go.
>*The opening is announced, and lots of neato toys which probably could have been
>done in a month, occurs a year later. Although I'm sure Foxen has installed
>lots of neato games and toys and list managers and the like, the general user
>won't notice them much. Yawn.
(1) Foxen is female.
(2) Your use of the phrase "although I'm sure..." suggests that you
haven't actually been on Crossroads to see what actually _is_ there.
I could tell you about all the really neat games and toys and other
assorted useful programs she's come up with, but I'd rather you see
them for yourself. Please don't prejudice yourself against a MUCK (or
the people who have put a lot of time into it) sight unseen.
(3) The people who built Crossroads are people; they're not aliens
from the planet Zorg who sleep thirteen hours a day and assemble a
committee whenever they want to type the word 'blue'. Crossroads has
been in development for over a year now precisely because Lynx and
company wanted to put some time and effort and real creativity into
their world, and they decided they wanted to make it perfect even if
it took them a year. They did not plan to spend a month writing each
MUF program; they planned to tinker with each program until they were
satisfied with it.
I disagree with your statement that "the general user won't notice
[the programs] that much," but that's a personal opinion.
You're not being forced to dig trenches on Crossroads; if it bothers
you that the MUCK has been in development for a year, feel free to not
apply for a character there. Myself, I think that even the casual
user will appreciate the time that's gone into Crossroads.
>*The people who will arrive won't get much of a chance to play around because
>most of the stuff was designed with the furry attitude: only the worthy get
>the M bit. Yawn.
Not exactly. Only the _needy_ get an M bit. If you have a program
you'd like to write, and you can demonstrate that you do know how to
use MUF and that your program will be useful, there should be no
problem in coming to some sort of agreement. If you don't have any
useful program you want to write, why do you need a MUCKER bit? If
you don't know MUF yet, learn on another database.
The rationale behind this is that being a MUCKER makes you pretty
powerful; you can do a lot of things normally reserved for wizards,
and in general you could screw up the database big-time if you had a
mind to. By keeping close tabs on the current MUCKERs, and making
sure they can be trusted not to maliciously screw up things, Lynx can
afford to let MUCKERs have access to more a powerful MUF without
fearing for his database. This in turn allows MUCKERS to write more
powerful programs.
(For example, if MUCKERs couldn't be trusted not to move stuff all
over the database for fun, the 'moveto' primitive might have to be
disabled, meaning that people couldn't write any program that would
move objects or players. Either make sure you can trust your MUCKERs,
or make sure they can't do anything dangerous. Lynx is doing the
former. Is that such a bad idea?)
>*The code that resulted from the changes, is it going to be public? I assume
>so, since Foxen has said he is going to release the code eventually. Although
>it would be nice to get just simple patches for each little twist you guys put
>on the code, instead of asking us to hack yours apart to find out how things
>work. [or don't work, for that matter]
You sound like you assume you have a right to the code. I don't know
what Foxen's intentions are, but if you'd appreciate her help, I'd
advise you to not look a gift horse in the mouth. Besides, if you
really think that the things Foxen has done are really that
inconsequential, and if as you say you're working on your own MUCK
building tools, why should Foxen bother creating patchfiles for you?
>Ok, summary: I think that the work done there on XR is nice, but not really
>outstanding or unusual...and certainly not worth the year's worth of effort. I
>guess most of the delays have been because of administration, or as we shall
>call it, the grand BUREAUCRACY!
Yes, there has been bureaucracy, because a lot of debate has carried
on over different ways to make Crossroads more enjoyable and easy to
play on and build in. Very little was decided arbitrarily.
If you really feel that Crossroads is not good enough to deserve your
time there, then by all means avoid it! I only ask that you not jump
to conclusions so much. Has it occurred to you that perhaps Lynx and
Foxen and the rest of the Crossroads crew worked in private for so
long was not because they felt like being elitist, but because they
felt they had something worth working on?
<< Brian >>
--
| Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig |
| Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU
| Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET |
"You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?"
Foxen
>
>4. The level of beauracracy, controversy, and politics surrounding CrossRoads
>certainly is more substantial than any other mud I have ever seen. Concern
>over a wide variety of issues, like mucker policies, builders' rights, stealing
>the works and ideas of others, nepotism, dictatorships, ego clashes, and
>privacy concerns, many builders, administrators, and even players pulled up
>stakes and left, their work, effort, and time wasted. Will it still be logging
>all commands when it publicly opens? I don't know.
For about a month now, it has been set to log only unQUELLed WIZARDs
commands.
- Foxen (Formerly Tygryss)
Foxen
>*The opening is announced, and lots of neato toys which probably could
> have been done in a month, occurs a year later. Although I'm sure
> Foxen has installed lots of neato games and toys and list managers and
> the like, the general user won't notice them much. Yawn.
Gee... thanks for being so nicely supportive. }=)
>*The code that resulted from the changes, is it going to be public? I
> assume so, since Foxen has said he is going to release the code
> eventually. Although it would be nice to get just simple patches for
> each little twist you guys put on the code, instead of asking us to
> hack yours apart to find out how things work. [or don't work, for that
> matter]
Last time I ran diffs on the server from vanilla 2.2, the diffs file for
the src directory (not including the include directory) ran ~150K. I just
really don't want to take all the time myself to pull out all the small
(or not so small) individual changes for each mod from the hugs diff file.
Sorry. I think in general its easier to take it all as a one piece
package, than to handle a bazillion little patches.
>Ok, summary: I think that the work done there on XR is nice, but not
>really outstanding or unusual...and certainly not worth the year's
>worth of effort. I guess most of the delays have been because of
>administration, or as we shall call it, the grand BUREAUCRACY!
Mostly it's taken these months because people who were building had other
things to do too, like schoolwork, or jobs. Some went !access for months,
some (including me) just took a while to do things. Some of the projects
were just so huge that it took a long time to do. Somehow I don't think
that over a meg of MUF can very easily be written in a month's time. Heck,
the server itself was delayed in debugging for nearly a month because of
various problems with one of the mods.
King_Claudius
The following is the entire text of copyright .h, as distributed
with the vanilla TinyMUCK2.2 code. Someone questioned Claudius's desire to
see the code used on crossroads, and in fact said something to the effect
of "these people slaved away, and you expect them to just fork up their
work?" (NOT exact words, and possibly not even close, as I've lost the
original post...)
My interpretetion of 2(a) below is this:
YES, damn straight you need to cough up those mods, for the benefit of the
rest of the MUCKing world.
And, before someone flames, I know that's NOT _exactly_ what it says, it's
how I interpret it. Although I agree Claudius's request to have lots of
small diffs was a little out of line, I do not think it unreasonable of
him to ask to see the code. It's a little silly for people to flame him for
asking to see the mods that Crossroads has made.
/* $Header: /belch_a/users/rearl/tinymuck/include/RCS/copyright.h,v 1.2 90/07/19 23:08:47 casie Exp $
* $Log: copyright.h,v $
* Revision 1.2 90/07/19 23:08:47 casie
* Removed comment log from top.
*
*
*/
/* -*-C-*-
Copyright (c) 1989, 1990 by David Applegate, James Aspnes, Timothy Freeman,
Bennet Yee, and Na Choon Piaw (lachesis).
This material was developed by the above-mentioned authors.
Permission to copy this software, to redistribute it, and to use it
for any purpose is granted, subject to the following restrictions and
understandings.
1. Any copy made of this software must include this copyright notice
in full.
2. Users of this software agree to make their best efforts (a) to
return to the above-mentioned authors any improvements or extensions
that they make, so that these may be included in future releases; and
(b) to inform the authors of noteworthy uses of this software.
3. All materials developed as a consequence of the use of this
software shall duly acknowledge such use, in accordance with the usual
standards of acknowledging credit in academic research.
4. The authors have made no warrantee or representation that the
operation of this software will be error-free, and the authors are
under no obligation to provide any services, by way of maintenance,
update, or otherwise.
5. In conjunction with products arising from the use of this material,
there shall be no use of the names of the authors, of Carnegie-Mellon
University, nor of any adaptation thereof in any advertising,
promotional, or sales literature without prior written consent from
the authors, Carnegie-Mellon University and Bell Communications Research
in each case. */
Spelling and grammer flames > /dev/null
--Doran
awoz...@morpheus.calpoly.edu
Ken Arromdee
>Forwarded from Doran, the other wizard on PythonMUCK:
>The following is the entire text of copyright .h, as distributed
>with the vanilla TinyMUCK2.2 code. Someone questioned Claudius's desire to
>see the code used on crossroads, and in fact said something to the effect
>of "these people slaved away, and you expect them to just fork up their
>work?" (NOT exact words, and possibly not even close, as I've lost the
>original post...)
>My interpretetion of 2(a) below is this:
> YES, damn straight you need to cough up those mods, for the benefit of the
> rest of the MUCKing world.
>2. Users of this software agree to make their best efforts (a) to
>return to the above-mentioned authors any improvements or extensions
>that they make, so that these may be included in future releases; and
>(b) to inform the authors of noteworthy uses of this software.
Gee, there are enough _legitimate_ things about XR to complain about; you don't
need to make up new ones. :-)
This doesn't say what you think it does--what it says is that the XR people
have to cough up those mods _to_the_writers_of_Muck_2.2_. Of which you're not
one.
Foxen
>clau...@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius) writes:
>>2. Users of this software agree to make their best efforts (a) to
>>return to the above-mentioned authors any improvements or extensions
>>that they make, so that these may be included in future releases; and
>>(b) to inform the authors of noteworthy uses of this software.
>
>have to cough up those mods _to_the_writers_of_Muck_2.2_. Of which you're
>not one.
Hrm. All this almost sounds like you guys are saying the only reason
the mods are going to be released is because of the clause in copyright.c.
Now I know thats not what you all mean, but its sort of the impression
that the wording of things gave when I read through it.
The reason I'm giving out the mods eventually, is because I'd like to
see lots of places have the ability to do a lot of the new things that
the 2.2fb server allows.
The reason I haven't yet is because its still got bugs. In fact, we found
another one today that crashed the server a couple times. *sigh* Also,
it's simply not done yet. I have this notebook with a full page of mods
still left to do. Some small, some rather pains in the rear to do. Some
will almost certainly be rejected for either their unfeasability, or the
lack of need for them. Added recently was Doran's and King_Claudius's
great idea to split up interp.c's dispatch() and make it use an array of
functions. (Thanks!) Zapped from the list recently were Daemon programs,
because I implemented the timed events differently with the QUEUE primitive
and AUTOSTART flag. Its still very much a work in progress and a lot of
the changes so far aren't documented very well yet.
Reading what I typed above, it sounds like I'm hogging all the credit for
all the mods. Those mods are to be credited a great deal to the efforts
of Sthiss, Lynx, Chris, and a few others as well. Sthiss has really done
a hell of an excellent job doing coding and work on it, and Lynx and Chris
have been great helps in debugging and in other mods. In fact, Sthiss has
done more work on the server than I have, in adding propdirs, building
commands, and other great stuff. Thanks for the all the work!
- Foxen (Formerly Tygryss)
(If nothing else, this server hacking has
been a hell of a good way to practice my
C coding and get pointer work down. }=)
Heresiarch
somewhere to show the world how mud administration really should be
done, and to leave the rest of us alone.
--
<SIG>_______________________________________________________________________
if you want vanilla, you eat the icecream ex...@mit.edu
from around the chocolate chips. lbu...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
-/phi lau...@ikaros.harvard.edu </SIG>
Ken Bartlett
>raise your hand if you're waiting for arromdee to put up his own mud
>somewhere to show the world how mud administration really should be
>done, and to leave the rest of us alone.
:raises hand. :)
--Dream (sure, why not?)
Jim W Lai
>somewhere to show the world how mud administration really should be
>done, and to leave the rest of us alone.
Actually, a proposed policy statement would be sufficient for me. Or
at least a well-defined stance. This is something that the negative
postings have failed to do, to the best of my recall.
jim miller
What you characterize as a negative posting, others may characterize
as un-r.g.m-ly polite. Sometimes minority viewpoints (minority in
the group that expresses itself) are pushed into a certain convenient
mold by the majority. This is nothing new.
As an example of the subjectiveness of such value judgements as "negative
posting", I think Lauren Burka's posts are almost uniformly bitchy,
falsely sincere fluff for the r.g.m flame cartel, with no well-defined
stance.
--
Jim Miller j...@ais.org
Heresiarch
What you characterize as a negative posting, others may characterize
as un-r.g.m-ly polite. Sometimes minority viewpoints (minority in
the group that expresses itself) are pushed into a certain convenient
mold by the majority. This is nothing new.
so what do you consider a 'majority' or a 'minority' opinion on this
group? want some help?
majority opinion: crossroads is an elaborate mudding environment
which has been under development for almost a year. it has some
restrictive policies. but then, you don't have to play on it.
majority opinion: jiro is an irritating person with no opinions other
than the exact opposite of what russ smith thinks.
miniority opintion: there exists a convenient mold-pushing majority
on this group which seeks to suppress opinions, so they must be posted
over and over again to prove the poster is right, even when no one
agrees with him.
minority opinion: jim miller has evolved past flatworm stage.