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Skill Orientation

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Adam William Reynolds

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Jan 27, 1993, 8:50:14 AM1/27/93
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There is only one way to describe this. The experience system used in
Runequest2/3. Has any lp ever implemented something like this?

For those who don't know, the theory behind it, is that the more you
practice an ability (Like hitting something with a sword) the better
you become at that ability.

You do not gain experience points, but skill improvements. There is
also the fact that you can only take a certain amount of damge
of your total damage through one hit location. (It is possible
to have a leg made useless, movement reduced, etc.....)

GRE...@maine.maine.edu

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Jan 27, 1993, 8:33:56 PM1/27/93
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Uh, yeah :) Nightmare indeed has both things you mentioned.
Skills which improve through use, as well as the option to spend (at quite
a high cost) experience instead to improve them.
In addition, we have a system of limb combat in which people must protect
part s
parts of their bodies. In other words, a glove only protects the hand,
and hits to other parts of the body may hurt the player more due to this
fact. In addition players may lose limbs and such. Hope this helps :)
-Descartes of Borg

Stephen Schmidt

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Jan 27, 1993, 1:23:01 PM1/27/93
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In article <1993Jan27....@aber.ac.uk> aw...@aber.ac.uk (Adam William Reynolds) writes:
>There is only one way to describe this. The experience system used in
>Runequest2/3. Has any lp ever implemented something like this?

Yes, the MudOS mudlib works this way.

>For those who don't know, the theory behind it, is that the more you
>practice an ability (Like hitting something with a sword) the better
>you become at that ability.
>You do not gain experience points, but skill improvements.

The MudOS mudlib also permits you to train in skills, at the local guild,
for a fee. This represents the idea that you might practice in your skills,
but doesn't force the user to sit around hacking on target dummies when he'd
rather be MUDding :)

>There is
>also the fact that you can only take a certain amount of damge
>of your total damage through one hit location. (It is possible
>to have a leg made useless, movement reduced, etc.....)

We've played with this but haven't really implemented it. There are several
MUDs that have (I believe Nightmare is one of them).
--
Steve Schmidt <>< wh...@leland.stanford.edu
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist
indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist
conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!

Mr P V Smith

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Jan 27, 1993, 1:32:37 PM1/27/93
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In article <1993Jan27....@aber.ac.uk> aw...@aber.ac.uk (Adam William Reynolds) writes:

I use a skill system kind of taken from Harnmaster, in harnmaster
you get a 'skill roll' every time you use a skill, succeed or fail,
but i took this and decided to make it so you only get a chance to
learn if you *FAIL* I came up with this theory from personal experience
in martial arts... I went to a club for a couple of years and soon
got to be the best at sparring, so i thought i was great and hot, and
wasn't getting any better, but one day someone new joined the club, who
had done countless martial arts before, now he kicked my butt in a big way,
i couldn't touch him, and he could hit me everywhere, but i got MUCH
better in a very short period of time.. Why? Because before he came along
i was 'succeeding' in all my skills, and they weren't gettig any better,
because it was no challenge, but after he came along, i failed all the time,
and i improved.. it's a sort of 'learn by mistakes' theory, and i reckon
it holds true.. and also has some implicit niceties, such as it means
that your players have to always practice on things tougher than themselves,
Surely this makes sense? the only mud i've played with skills is
shattered worlds, but they don't seem to use this system, because i became
a thief there, and stealing was real hard to start off with, but after
i got above a certain level (about 45%) i shot up to 110% or so in no time
because i just kept giving things to bunnies and stealing it back,
succeeding all the time.. so they seem to use the advance on success theory,
which, from my experience, is silly.. it means you advance real slow at
the start, and shoot up after a certain level of mastery, which just isn't so
in real life.. irl it seems to generally be the opposite, once you pick up
the basics you get to a reasonable level quick, then it takes a long long long
time to get to be a real master....

btw, shattered worlds also has a damage system whereby damage is split
between limbs, and they can become maimed or severed (having yer head
severed sucks :)


That's all

~Beebop/Paul V. Smith

Mr P V Smith

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Jan 27, 1993, 8:04:14 PM1/27/93
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In article <1993Jan27.1...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wh...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:
>In article <1993Jan27....@aber.ac.uk> aw...@aber.ac.uk (Adam William Reynolds) writes:
>>For those who don't know, the theory behind it, is that the more you
>>practice an ability (Like hitting something with a sword) the better
>>you become at that ability.
>>You do not gain experience points, but skill improvements.
>
>The MudOS mudlib also permits you to train in skills, at the local guild,
>for a fee. This represents the idea that you might practice in your skills,
>but doesn't force the user to sit around hacking on target dummies when he'd
>rather be MUDding :)


I think the theory of 'buying' skills stinks.. basically because it means
that lower levels will beg for cash, and if they have a nice big friend then
they get the skills easily, which stinks.. it should be from 'real' experience
i.e. actively using the skills in combat, it does NOT mean you have to
'hack dummies' and that's a very sad idea of training, we are all training
every second of our lives, what do u learn from 'training dummies' or
even 'paid lessons' ? you learn much more from real experience, so while
paid lessons are all very well, they should be an extension of the
natural learning curve of people, i.e. treat the training period
as intensive training in that skill and advance it accordingly, but
you should also be able to advance it by simple practice
(and mere paid lessons should not take you above a certain level, in
my role playing system i agree with the theory that you cannot get
any skill above 70% in a 'training' evironment, unless it's a very
realistic one (eg gladiatorial arena), because (calling on personal
experience from martial arts once more) you just don't know what it's like
till you really HAVE to 'pass a skill' with the failing consequences meaning
death or similar.

~Beebop/Paul V. Smith

Bob Farmer

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Jan 27, 1993, 4:17:32 PM1/27/93
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wh...@leland.Stanford.EDU writes:
> >There is only one way to describe this. The experience system used
> >Runequest2/3. Has any lp ever implemented something like this?
>
> Yes, the MudOS mudlib works this way.
>
> >For those who don't know, the theory behind it, is that the more yo
> >practice an ability (Like hitting something with a sword) the bette
> >you become at that ability.
> >You do not gain experience points, but skill improvements.
>
> The MudOS mudlib also permits you to train in skills, at the local
> guild, for a fee. This represents the idea that you might practice
> in your skills, but doesn't force the user to sit around hacking on
> target dummies when he'd rather be MUDding :)

Correction, that is the TMI-2 mudlib, not the "MudOS mudlib", there is no
particular mudlib sponsored by the MudOS developers (though I'm just a
very minor player, I know the main guys feel this way too, having talked
to them). In fact, the majority of MudOS muds that are actually up and
running do not use TMI-2's mudlib.

Blackthorn (Genocide)
bo...@metronet.com

Mr P V Smith

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Jan 28, 1993, 2:22:03 PM1/28/93
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In article <C1K6...@brunel.ac.uk> cs90...@brunel.ac.uk (Duncan J Stansfield) writes:
>Mr P V Smith (ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>: you should also be able to advance it by simple practice

>: (and mere paid lessons should not take you above a certain level, in
>: my role playing system i agree with the theory that you cannot get
>: any skill above 70% in a 'training' evironment, unless it's a very
>: realistic one (eg gladiatorial arena), because (calling on personal
>: experience from martial arts once more) you just don't know what it's like
>
>say i would have thought the ceiling would be the ability of the trainer,
>the closer you get to his/her ability the less gain you would get.

Yeah, i can't really argue with that, that'd surely be a major factor,
as would the realistic training etc..

Uh oh, here we go again, i can't post unless there's more text in my added
bit than the included article, so here goes...

boggle, cheer, wave, rock, squit, nod, bounce, eilonwy, second, yeah right,
not, beep, snort, grunt, sitr, ablick, blah, crumple, melt, mount, wibble,
baha, nah, drool, froth, hum, hee, ack, putz, ruffle, peer, flutter, pant,
muah, flappy, gloat, wiggle, duh, insult, comp, agree, flipoff, roll,
grab, mock, bored, breathe, yodel, sing, snore, yawn, smirk, smifk, smrik,
puke, pout, shiver, kneel, lag, hmm, groan, grin, glare, flex, flip, fondle,
snarl, sneer, sob, spank, spit, leer, whine, taunt, think, thank, twiddle,
choke, zoomer, zoomerama, butt, anvil


cheer wildly!
-bops you on the head-


there, that should do it (boggle?)

~Beebop

Duncan J Stansfield

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Jan 28, 1993, 4:52:10 AM1/28/93
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Mr P V Smith (ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:

: you should also be able to advance it by simple practice


: (and mere paid lessons should not take you above a certain level, in
: my role playing system i agree with the theory that you cannot get
: any skill above 70% in a 'training' evironment, unless it's a very
: realistic one (eg gladiatorial arena), because (calling on personal
: experience from martial arts once more) you just don't know what it's like

say i would have thought the ceiling would be the ability of the trainer,

Matthew J. Newhook

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Jan 29, 1993, 7:52:27 AM1/29/93
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cs90...@brunel.ac.uk (Duncan J Stansfield) writes:

Well, from a logistical standpoint this is stupid. If this were the
case then we could never surpass our teachers, and this is frequently
the case. Take musical instruments for instance. A very gifted person
can hope to surpass their teachers skill in that instrument. Most
skills can be looked at in this fashion.

Matthew
--
Matthew Newhook (mat...@engr.mun.ca) | "...get on with the fascination
Faculty of Engineering and Applied Science | the real relation, the underlying
Memorial University of Newfoundland, Canada | theme" - Limelight, Rush

William Considine

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Jan 29, 1993, 11:52:28 PM1/29/93
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-Bill Considine
Whitehawk@Phoenix
Phoenix LPmud - 134.181.1.12 3500
Shadow's Edge - was.chem.psu.edu 2000
(the list goes on :)


William Considine

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Jan 30, 1993, 12:01:26 AM1/30/93
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Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Skill Orientation
Summary: right on the money
Expires:
References: <1993Jan27....@aber.ac.uk> <1993Jan27.1...@leland.Stanford.EDU> <C1J75...@feenix.metronet.com>
Sender: wcon...@abacus.bates.edu
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Bates College, Lewiston, Maine
Keywords:
Yup, the MudOS mudlib is rarely used by folks who get the TMI driver
but this is, I believe, because so little effort was put into turning
out a quality mudlib. They make a nice little driver, and I use one
myself, but the mudlib is messy and incomplete (as they freely admit
in a disclaimer) so no flame here, just agreeing with blackthorn's
comment, that indeed this mudlib from Nightmare is actually just the
mudlib developed at nightmare, and so I'm told, is now available for
distribution, or very soon.

Darin Johnson

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Jan 30, 1993, 7:07:38 PM1/30/93
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> I think the theory of 'buying' skills stinks.. basically because it means
>that lower levels will beg for cash,

No, you buy them with experience. Still, I don't see a big reason
to be upset either way - there is a lot you can learn in ANY skill
without actually practicing that skill; and implicit in the "buying"
was that you would be training under people better than you. I'm
sure a master swordsman did not become a master without some sort
of training.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
- Grad school - just say no.

Stephen Schmidt

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Jan 30, 1993, 2:30:38 AM1/30/93
to
In article <1993Jan30....@orlith.bates.edu> wcon...@abacus.bates.edu (William Considine) writes:
>Yup, the MudOS mudlib is rarely used by folks who get the TMI driver
>but this is, I believe, because so little effort was put into turning
>out a quality mudlib. They make a nice little driver, and I use one
>myself, but the mudlib is messy and incomplete

With all due respect to Whitehawk, I must beg to differ with these comments.
I don't know what his source is for the notion that MudOS drivers rarely use
the TMI lib. The TMI name server lists about 30 MUDs and I know of about 10
or so more that arent' listed, all of which use the MudOS driver (with on
or two exceptions). Of these, about half use the TMI-2 lib, with the other
half being roughly evenly split between the Nightmare lib, the Basis mudlib,
and 3.1.2 libs that were upgraded to MudOS.
I think Whitehawk may be confusing the MudOS 0.8.11 mudlib with the newer
TMI 0.9 mudlib beta release. The 0.8.11 was as he describes; messy and
incomplete (no combat system, no money system, and other flaws). However,
a considerable amount of effort has been put into the TMI 0.9 mudlib and
all of these problems and more have been solved by Buddha and a dedicated
cast of coders. I hate to see any comment posted on the group, even one
made in error, that denigrates the work that people have put into this lib
at TMI.
If Whitehawk hasn't seen the TMI 0.9 lib, I would ask him to stop by TMI-2
and take a look at it. I think he will find it a vast improvement over the
old TMI 0.8 lib, and a much better system to base a MUD on.
Also, I'll hope he'll post a clarifying note telling us whether my guess
that he's talking about the 0.8 lib is correct. If not, I shall have to take
issue with him, as his comments are simply not true of the 0.9 beta release.

Mobydick@TMI-2

Bob Farmer

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Jan 30, 1993, 12:22:04 PM1/30/93
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> Yup, the MudOS mudlib is rarely used by folks who get the TMI
> driver but this is, I believe, because so little effort was put
> into turning out a quality mudlib.

Heh, check again. It's the TMI-2 mudlib and the MudOS driver. Not the
other way around. And TMI does not make a driver. And "MudOS" is not a
mudlib.

> They make a nice little driver, and I use one
> myself, but the mudlib is messy and incomplete (as they freely
> admit in a disclaimer) so no flame here,

Ok, geez, here we go again. The people who make the MudOS driver and the
people who made the TMI-2 mudlib are not the same people. Totally different
people in fact.

I'm not sure what you mean by messy, but you're right about incomplete.
Will TMI-2 ever finish their mudlib? Or will they just keep rewriting it?
(....tune in next week for more, etc :)

> just agreeing with blackthorn's
> comment, that indeed this mudlib from Nightmare is actually just
> the mudlib developed at nightmare, and so I'm told, is now
> available for distribution, or very soon.

*ponder*

blackthorn (genocide)
bo...@metronet.com


Mr P V Smith

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Jan 31, 1993, 2:48:26 PM1/31/93
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In article <44...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> djoh...@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes:
>I'm sure a master swordsman did not become a master without some sort
>of training.


Yes, most 'master swordsman' would receive some kind of training, but
buying skills with experience is even LESS realistic than with cash,
because at least you can 'pretend' that the cash bought a lesson with
a master, but the fact is, you go out and bash an orc over the head
with a sword a few times, go to a training centre and use the experience
gained to advance your skill in stealing? boggle!!!

~Beebop/Paul V. Smith
(Geeze, writing code to learn from real practice is easy, you don't
need 'experience points' at all)

Stephen Schmidt

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Jan 31, 1993, 3:10:47 PM1/31/93
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In article <1khaea...@caraway.csv.warwick.ac.uk> ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr P V Smith) writes:
> Yes, most 'master swordsman' would receive some kind of training, but
>buying skills with experience is even LESS realistic than with cash,
>because at least you can 'pretend' that the cash bought a lesson with
>a master, but the fact is, you go out and bash an orc over the head
>with a sword a few times, go to a training centre and use the experience
>gained to advance your skill in stealing? boggle!!!

You can partially solve this by keeping track of different types of
experience. Most of the systems I've seen that do this use four types:
fighting, magic, thief skills, and a catch-all usually related to wilderness
skills or questing or something.
This only reduces the problem by one level: instead of spending your
fighting XP on your stealing skill, you spend your sword-wielding XP on
your axe-wielding skill. Equally impure but at least it doesn't smell as
bad :)
I've always rationalized the cash-for-skills trade on the grounds that what
you should really do in training is spend a lot of time bashing on practice
dummies, but that's boring. So instead we make you spend a lot of time raising
money, and then you give up the money instead.
This is equally a rationalization, but it's not quite as perverse as the
first one, imho. Ideally you'd like to go to a system where skills improve
only with use, but that makes life hard on newbies. Training seems to be the
best solution, however you implement it. You can easily adjust the mix of
training-improvement to use-improvement just by changing the cost of buying
training. (The XP cost if you use that system.)

Rebecca E Willey

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Jan 31, 1993, 3:59:17 PM1/31/93
to
Curious about what's happened to Lost Souls? Well I'm here to tell you,
it still lives! Apparently a lot of our players have lost track of where
she's moved to. Tom.imb.uh.edu blew a memory chip, so we had to trasplant
over to Dick.imb.uh.edu, or 129.7.2.13! So try there, port 3000.

Currently there is another Lost Souls running on my neighbor Pierre's mac
and I've been rewriting combat... it's almost done, and lemmie tell ya,
it'll be nice. It's running on the latest release of the driver, too,
so there are a lot of nice new features and it's FAST FAST FAST! At least
3 times as fast as the old driver. I'm amazed.

Some features to look for, when we put the new mudlib and driver in place
this weekend (the mud will prolly be down a lot this weekend while we
do this, sorry, but no players on it anyway!)
a. settable prompts
b. the ability to aim for a specific body part
c. as many limbs as you like on monsters, (and players, via
polymorphing)
d. as many attacks as you have hands
e. the ability to wield as many weapons as you have hands
f. more efficient group/following functions
g. no more stopped heart beats, or killed autohealing!
h. more compact skills, thus easier to raise them.

So come by and check it out, info about the new mudlib will be on the
board! If you have been a player on Lost Souls, and want to retain your
player status and level, money, stats, etc... you'll need to mail us on
the game or post a note to let us know. That's all. We'll do the rest. ;)

Address: dick.imb.uh.edu or 129.7.2.13 port 3000

Bectile, the Queen of the northern lands and LPC lover ;)

Hans Holmberg

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Jan 31, 1993, 11:20:53 PM1/31/93
to

Why not use the kind of system the rpg RuneQuest uses?

There you 'tag' a skill when it's applied on something and the result is a
special (ie. the result is 5 times better than needed). To raise that skill
you have to spend an amount of money to train under a master of the skill.
After the traning you raise the skill if you _fail_ to pass a check on the
skill. (It'll become harder to raise it if the skill is high).

You also have the opportunity to raise the skill without having a tag on it,
but there is an equal chance that you will decrease the skill as increasing it.
(Lacking experience you can't know what's right or wrong ;)

>Steve Schmidt <>< wh...@leland.stanford.edu

/Hasse
--
/ email: ha...@solace.hsh.se, irc: Knightman, mud: Kniggit@VikingMud \
\ snail-mail: Hans Holmberg, Sommarvagen 5, 854 67 Sundsvall, Sweden /
/ phone: +46 60 569169, fax: +46 60 569266 \
\ "In a crazy world a sane person would appear to be crazy." /

Adam Beeman

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Feb 1, 1993, 4:26:24 PM2/1/93
to

In article <1993Jan30....@orlith.bates.edu> wcon...@abacus.bates.edu (William Considine) writes:

>Yup, the MudOS mudlib is rarely used by folks who get the TMI driver

Hm... "MudOS mudlib" --> confusion... there's actually a few of them, that
have been produced. There was "basis", which was included as a minimalist
thingy with the full release of MudOS 0.9, and only intended to demonstrate
that the driver worked, there was the older TMI 0.8.11 and earlier mudlibs,
there was Nightmare, and there is TMI-2's 0.9 beta mudlib. Which one gets
to be called "the MudOS mudlib"? There is no generic MudOS mudlib.
There are several varieties of mudlibs available for MudOS.

>but this is, I believe, because so little effort was put into turning
>out a quality mudlib.

Basically, the various MudOS driver developers have come from several muds
to cooperate, but don't agree 100% on what sort of mudlib to produce,
and have their various bits of code, etc...

I don't think you can say that TMI-2's mudlib came from a lack of effort.
However, at times it was just me and one or two other really devoted coders,
which takes longer than just tossing in chunks of code from wherever, if you
want a well designed system in the end.

> They make a nice little driver, and I use one
>myself, but the mudlib is messy and incomplete (as they freely admit
>in a disclaimer) so no flame here, just agreeing with blackthorn's
>comment, that indeed this mudlib from Nightmare is actually just the
>mudlib developed at nightmare, and so I'm told, is now available for
>distribution, or very soon.

Actually, what's funny, is that this mudlib from Nightmare is actually
just a collage of code from various TMI and Basis mudlibs, which has had
some extensions hacked in, and has been made more playable, and includes
a basic world. I checked it out, actually, and was pleased to see that
the headers have been left intact on the TMI-based code...

Hmm. This is not a flame. I am glad that Nightmare actually turned the
limb oriented combat system that Brian Leet and I wrote into something
usable, it was such a monstrous thing that I was afraid nobody would want
to maintain it. I'm glad that Nightmare has added stuff to the mudlib
we put out a while back to make it more fully fleshed out, etc...

Heh. What a waste of bandwidth, this post may seem. I just get a little
fired up when someone belittles the effort I've put into my work, when
he's using something based on it.

>
>-Bill Considine
>Whitehawk@Phoenix
>Phoenix LPmud - 134.181.1.12 3500
>Shadow's Edge - was.chem.psu.edu 2000
>(the list goes on :)

-Adam Beeman
Buddha@{TMI-2, Genesis, Portals, others}

--
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From the Mind of Adam Beeman || Flames: root@localhost
#include <std/disclaimer.h> || other stuff: bee...@cats.ucsc.edu
insert your own witty quote here || NeXT Mail: ad...@samsara.santa-cruz.ca.us
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Mike Yacht

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Feb 5, 1993, 1:23:20 PM2/5/93
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ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr P V Smith) writes:

> In article <44...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> djoh...@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) write

> >I'm sure a master swordsman did not become a master without some sort
> >of training.
>
>
> Yes, most 'master swordsman' would receive some kind of training, but
> buying skills with experience is even LESS realistic than with cash,
> because at least you can 'pretend' that the cash bought a lesson with
> a master, but the fact is, you go out and bash an orc over the head
> with a sword a few times, go to a training centre and use the experience
> gained to advance your skill in stealing? boggle!!!
>
> ~Beebop/Paul V. Smith
> (Geeze, writing code to learn from real practice is easy, you don't
> need 'experience points' at all)

Know what bugs me? People whining about the way the games are. Notice
my use of the word GAME. THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE FOLKS, ITS A GAME! The
more complex you make your GAME the less people will want to play it. If
any of you out there are CS majors, and have takin a 'user interface'
course you'd know that PLAYABLITY is directly related to simplicity. You
need to keep things SIMPLE, not make it cmplex as hell, and realistic, if
people want realism, they wouldn't be playing muds, I hate to tell you.

On top of that, I completely disagree with you, Paul. Experience points
are a way of saying 'You know, yer getting quite good.' And let people
'advance' where they want to. Practice does NOT make perfect, experience
does, why do you think employers want EXPERIENCE, over a college degree?
On top of that, making a 'real practice' system is just adding to
complexity. What stops me from just finding a monster, setting a shell
script into my client and banging away, to get better?

I think a MUCH MUCH Better goal for you lpc coders out there, is to try
to remove the redundant 'iterative' style of lp-combat. And if you do,
tell me, so I can use it, cause I think its the largest problem of LPs.

-Mike AKA Spec@Spectral Realms

Mr P V Smith

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Feb 6, 1993, 12:32:44 PM2/6/93
to

Why do companies want 'experience' over a college degree?
Well, let me tell you, college degrees just teach you a load of stuff,
you don't actually get to use it in a real situation, this is very
much like the current system of LPmuds, where the 'college' is
the place where you magically 'buy' a skill, ok, so you've got a few
pointers on the skill, but havn't used it in a real situation yet,
hence companies don't want you!! This is the same everywhere, in wars
people are always saying how they hate 'FNG's (Fking new guys)
because they have all the training, but havn't used it at all,
which is my point entirely, your skills go up with practial, real, use.
Thank you for proving my point.

And your second point is entirely ludicrous,

>What stops me from just finding a monster, setting a shell
>script into my client and banging away, to get better?

For fucks sake, think about your own situation, you were saying how
great the 'exp' system is, what's to stop me setting up a shell script
into my client and banging away, to get more experience points????
jeeze, some people are dumb

The main point of my system is that you have to practice EACH
INDIVIDUAL skill, your 'exp' system is easy to make clients for,
because all you do is bash bunnies for a few days, but if you need
to practice each skill in my system, that means you need many clients
to do each individual skill.

The first step to getting rid of the combat you so much hate in LPs
is to remove the emphasis on combat in LPs!!!!! If you're letting
them advance every skill ever known JUST by hitting a load of monsters,
then that's all players will do *cavernous yawn* But if you have to
use each skill to advance it, that means your time will be spent
doing many other things, leading to a better atmosphere in the mud,
instead of the usual player races to bash the biggest monsters each
reset, which is oh so VERY tiresome, instead you'll have players wandering
the wilderness tracking other players, increasing their tracking skill,
others may be exploring, making herbal remedies etc.. doesn't this
sound better????? instead of your usual mush of mages,rogues,rangers
ALL running to bash in a dragon so they can advance skills?
(I use those terms so you know what i'm talking about)


~Beebop

Lars Syrstad

unread,
Feb 7, 1993, 10:46:37 AM2/7/93
to
Mike Yacht (ya...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu) wrote:

: ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr P V Smith) writes:

: > In article <44...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> djoh...@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) write
: > >I'm sure a master swordsman did not become a master without some sort
: > >of training.
: >
: >
: > Yes, most 'master swordsman' would receive some kind of training, but
: > buying skills with experience is even LESS realistic than with cash,
: > because at least you can 'pretend' that the cash bought a lesson with
: > a master, but the fact is, you go out and bash an orc over the head
: > with a sword a few times, go to a training centre and use the experience
: > gained to advance your skill in stealing? boggle!!!
: >
: > ~Beebop/Paul V. Smith
: > (Geeze, writing code to learn from real practice is easy, you don't
: > need 'experience points' at all)

: Know what bugs me? People whining about the way the games are. Notice
: my use of the word GAME. THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE FOLKS, ITS A GAME! The
: more complex you make your GAME the less people will want to play it.

And what Universal Law is it that states that everyone strives to
create games that everyone would want to play? This is not a
commercial industry. Personally I design my game for the people who
would like to play the kind of game that I would like to create.
If there are just about three of those people, it would be a bit sad,
but then again, it wouldn't really bother ME at all. :-)

: If

: any of you out there are CS majors, and have takin a 'user interface'
: course you'd know that PLAYABLITY is directly related to simplicity. You
: need to keep things SIMPLE, not make it cmplex as hell, and realistic, if
: people want realism, they wouldn't be playing muds, I hate to tell you.

Tell that to the guys who write flight-simulator games. :-)

Besides, the REAL challenge is to write a complex system hidden
beneath a simple user interface. If done properly, each player may
find his/her own complexity level, and let the system take care of
what's 'below'.

:
: On top of that, I completely disagree with you, Paul. Experience points

: are a way of saying 'You know, yer getting quite good.' And let people
: 'advance' where they want to. Practice does NOT make perfect, experience
: does, why do you think employers want EXPERIENCE, over a college degree?
: On top of that, making a 'real practice' system is just adding to
: complexity. What stops me from just finding a monster, setting a shell
: script into my client and banging away, to get better?

Would be ludicrously simple to stop you from doing that.

:
: I think a MUCH MUCH Better goal for you lpc coders out there, is to try

: to remove the redundant 'iterative' style of lp-combat. And if you do,
: tell me, so I can use it, cause I think its the largest problem of LPs.

You may very well be right on that one... (What a surprise, there was
some sense in your post after all :-)). But: Why do you think that all
coders should work on exactly the same thing? Why do you think that
nobody is able to work on more things than one? (You obviously do think
that if one works on some skills improved by practise scheme, one cannot
also work on removing the redundancy of LP-combat).

As a matter of fact, I have been thinking alot about improvement of skills
from excercise. My reasons for wanting to do that include the want of
creating a simpler skill advancement system for the players. (By making
the underlying code more complex, but the players won't have to bother
about that).

Of course, now that you have told me that it is not like this, I figure
I'd better stop doing that and instead do something WORTHWHILE, right?


: -Mike AKA Spec@Spectral Realms

Lars Syrstad, aka Drevreck of the Crashed One.
--
The soul I took from you was not even missed.
- Black Sabbath in 'Lord of this World'.

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