MUD Economies
jason
>If the game system prevented people from carrying thousands of gold
>coins around (ie. giving coins weight) and had banks which demanded
>heavy fees for keeping your money, I think gems could be a viable
>business.
>Kjetil T.
I, too have found this rather funny/annoying...
You withdraw 100000 coins.
Like anyone would be able to pick up even a tenth of these :)
A barter system would be nice to see..
-jason
Oliver Gassner & The Revenge of The NERDS
Brian Scott Butler <bb...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>I recently found an archived e-mail message about a MUD called Shattered
>Worlds that has an economy that was actually designed based on an
>economic model.
>
>I was wondering whether anyone knew what became of that project?
>
>What are some MU*s that have interesting economic components? For
>example, trading or Player run stores, etc.
>
>Thanks
>| bb...@andrew.cmu.edu |
Well, Tubmud in Berlin (check a Mud listing), Germany has several
"economic" features.
First we implemented banks (usually without interest).
The we implemented a system which keeps the prices of all
items dynamic after a supply and demand fashion.
This process has minimal and maximum prices to prevent
all knives cost 1 coin and all giantswords 1000000000.
A Player's market is istalled where players can fix the price
of the respective item. The income is much better than
wehn selling in the normal shop, also players get a good
deal when they buy there.
A Peerage system, akin to the one in The Marches of Antan
has been installed.
A Clan can own a shop, a weapon rental etc.
Pubs buy in large amounts for decreasing prices in a central
matrket and sell to the players. But... alcohol turns bad
after a while ...
The NPC's who guard the Clancash or run the shops demand a weekly wage
of course.
Tubmud grats guestwizardhood to sysads, Contact Demos or one of the arches.
I (Hagen) would be glad to show you around in the economic world
of Tubmud.
Oliver Gassner, Hagen von Tronje @ Tubmud - Berlin - Germany
TUB Multi User Domain
>Tubmud grats guestwizardhood to sysads, Contact Demos or one of the arches.
TubMud doesn't do this. Sorry, there has been a misunderstanding.
Reimer Behrends
James Waldrop
Benjamin R. Lund <b_l...@oz.plymouth.edu> wrote:
>PS - Re: that unofficial mud list
>Moral Decay runs a HEAVILY modified 3.0, so we probably belong in the custom
>section...
Unless you have modified it to the point that I can't login and
write an object in LPC, then I think you're still running an LP.
Sulam
--
j...@shekel.cs.columbia.edu ...one day we'll awake and still be in fifth
grade and and our lives will be on video tape and the teacher is some witch-
god thing that created everything and she'll show the class and they'll laugh
and laugh and laugh at how stupid yer life was oh yess... - david fremont
James Waldrop
Scarrow <bai...@penchiss10.ee.pdx.edu> wrote:
>I have a few texts by Prydain, who was at one time writing something he called
>the Illior mudlib, which had a fairly complicated mechanism (mobiles had to
>purchase items when they reset [ala Diku-style resets], resources were fixed
>[a closed system, essentially]).
Illior started on Borderland as a domain I was working on. When
Buddha and I created TMI, I didn't have as much time to work on
Borderland, and it ended up shutting down anyway.
Illior was resurrected by me as a catch-all name for my philosophies
about the role of the mudlib in role-playing MUDs. Eventually some
people were gotten together to try and actually create something
similar to what I had been talking about. Prydain was part of this
group. Illior died at the same time TMI did, when we lost access
to dogstar, the machine we were developing on. I'm currently working
on a lot of the same ideas on my new mud, Gnosis.
As far as closed economies go, that was probably Prydain's idea. I
haven't heard from him in a while, so I can't ask. However, the
Illior economy scheme, the way I envisioned it, was more of an
open system where the main way limits are enforced is through the
natural decay of objects and a supply and demand type shop run
completely by players, almost exactly like what is described as
being used at TubMUD today.
Just to keep the history straight. :-)
Sulam
P.S. Of course, the mother of all closed economies is running at Shattered
Worlds -- my how the circle turns... :-)
jsc...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu
I, hopefully, believe he was refurring to their mudlib, as there was
no section for "custom" drivers. If he was talking about their driver,
then you're write Sulam, but I don't think he was.
However, I couldn't tell the difference, but then I didn't look all that
hard, (can't when you log in to 40 or so) only spent at most 4 or 5 minutes
looking a help files, and common commands (like the level command, that one
is a dead give-away for 2.4.5 ones!), but since the line between
"modified" and "custom" is very thing, I'll be a movin' um.
Blackstaff
(and for those of you in rgm.admin, 'that unofficial mudlist' reffured to
is the "Officially Unofficial and Most Likely Wrong LPmud Listing", if
you want to take a look, it's in /pub/incoming/LPlist.v2...(whatever) on
ftp.cd.chalmers.se)
Mike Mc Gaughey
>I recently found an archived e-mail message about a MUD called Shattered
>Worlds that has an economy that was actually designed based on an
>economic model.
>I was wondering whether anyone knew what became of that project?
Oh. Hmm. Was it you that sent me a recent email enquiry
about it? :)
In any case, the story is that one of the guys here (the head of the
department, in fact) devised an economic model (the `Loans Standard'
model) which was intended to provide a better description of today's
economies, and perhaps to provide a little more predictive power about
the effects various types of monetary policy would have on the
marketplace.
In the first year after this was proposed, two simulations were run.
One of his students ran a competition, in a simplified economy, to see
what types of agents would perform best under the model. It wasn't a
very realistic simulation, though it got him his honors thesis. The
second simulation, implemented by Geoff, was on the mud - we already
had player owned shops, pubs, etc (also written by him) - and it was
natural to try to emulate the (rather radical) banking scheme that is
implied by the model, set it running, and see what happens. To date,
nothing much has. It's still running, but we've all been rather too
busy to investigate it further, and I don't believe the implications of
some of the assumptions of the system were well understood when it was
devised (or implemented).
This year, btw, there's been a third (and much better run) simulation
devised along the same lines as the first. Genetic algorithms, neural
nets, and a few other things were used to generate efficient agents.
Monetary policies were evolved along similar, though simpler, lines.
I haven't read the thesis yet, so I'm not prepared to comment on it.
Personally, I have my reservations on the system, but I haven't been
able to find the time to think them through - I suspect that it *is*
a useful theory, but describes a far more sophisticated economy than
we can currently test. In particular, part of the dynamics of a
country's internal economy comes from the behaviour of other countries;
none of the work to date has addressed this. Perhaps we'll get around
to it next year.
Cheers,
Mike.
--
Mike McGaughey AARNET: mm...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
"Thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest" - Milton.
Scarrow
>> The influences of supply and demand are also of import. Diku shows
>> its shop flaws when you take a look at, for example, a gem store
>> where gems are bought but never sold back.
>If the game system prevented people from carrying thousands of gold
>coins around (ie. giving coins weight) and had banks which demanded
>heavy fees for keeping your money, I think gems could be a viable
>business.
Ah yes, a good point I forgot to make. Yet this doesn't solve all problems
as someone should be able to, for example, have a pack animal which carries
around loot, etc., but it makes things more realistic (i.e., the money is
now at least more of a burden and therefore might attract bandits and the
like). Another thing would be to make more esoteric items like gems become
valuable in a fashion sense. Perhaps have a merchant who fashions such
things into items of jewelry or a smith who encrusts them into hilts, etc.
Gems, if overly plentiful, also make nice magic regents and tend to attract
large dragons.
--
Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
Aran Cox
>Brian Scott Butler <bb...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>I recently found an archived e-mail message about a MUD called Shattered
>>Worlds that has an economy that was actually designed based on an
>>economic model.
>>I was wondering whether anyone knew what became of that project?
The BTech3056 mud has an economic model (that isn't working yet) that
involves the production rates of planets and the creation of raw materials
and the production rates of the various factories and shipping times
between factories. Of course, nothing really goeas bad, mechs don't
spoil.
In fact you should come and look around and join the Free Worlds
League (blatant plug ;)).
--
--s...@iastate.edu--
There are only twenty-three words... PsychicTV
Joern Rennecke
...
>I, too have found this rather funny/annoying...
>You withdraw 100000 coins.
>Like anyone would be able to pick up even a tenth of these :)
>A barter system would be nice to see..
Well, Lars' concept of gold coins wasn't set up to be particularily realistic.
Would you ever think of paying 2 gold coins for a bottle of beer? 40 gold
coins for a torch?
If you were to get realistic, you had to use coins of different metals and
sizes. And unless these denote some fixed amount of a currency, the system
can get unplayable pretty quickly. If they do, you can automagically handle
adding the values and exchanging the different coins, simply deal with the
amount of the currency. When we cristen the currency 'gold coin' and give
it a value of about a dime, we arrive pretty much at the point we started
from. Well, it sounds odd to call something a gold coin what is probably
a small copper coin, but it makes the cash a simple adventurer has look
quite impressing.
What I find more odd than to call a worthless currrency unit a gold coin
( What is a pound sterling? ) is the concept that you enter a medivial
world as a complete stranger, and find an institution called bank you can
absolutely trust to give your money back when you need it.
If the bank denied that it had accepted any money from you, who would
belive in the word of a complete stranger? One that attacks innocent
creatures at that?
Amylaar
Phil Hetherington
# jdm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (jason) writes:
# ...
# >I, too have found this rather funny/annoying...
# >You withdraw 100000 coins.
# >Like anyone would be able to pick up even a tenth of these :)
# >A barter system would be nice to see..
# Well, Lars' concept of gold coins wasn't set up to be particularily realistic.
# Would you ever think of paying 2 gold coins for a bottle of beer? 40 gold
# coins for a torch?
# What I find more odd than to call a worthless currrency unit a gold coin
# ( What is a pound sterling? ) is the concept that you enter a medivial
# world as a complete stranger, and find an institution called bank you can
# absolutely trust to give your money back when you need it.
# If the bank denied that it had accepted any money from you, who would
# belive in the word of a complete stranger? One that attacks innocent
# creatures at that?
# Amylaar
The trouble is, as soon as you try to make it realistic, you lose the
aspect of fantasy & adventure, and you might as well play the real-life
game instead.
This is the whole point about muds - its _different_ to what you have in
real life. You can carry around 100000 gold coins, murder innocent rabbits,
whatever the hell you like.
Please don't get this confused with real life, real life is bound by the
laws of (a) physics, and (b) humanity. But now and again its nice to have
a means of escaping from these very restrictive laws, and doing something
_different_. Enjoy this while you can!
Phil
_ __________________________________________________________
|_)|_ *| / ~ Another useless idea from Phil Hetherington. ~ \
| | )|| / Occasionally a student at Brunel University, West London \
======== \ ~ Email ee9...@brunel.ac.uk & qw...@uncvx1.oit.unc.edu ~ /
\__________________________________________________________/
Scarrow
>The trouble is, as soon as you try to make it realistic, you lose the
>aspect of fantasy & adventure, and you might as well play the real-life
>game instead.
One of the primary reasons reality often has less "adventure" is because it
is weighted with more risks. Although your MUD character may die, you suffer
no true physical pain or injury over it (psychologically may be another
matter, as I've seen people become very attached to their characters). In
any event, what qualifies you for making broad judgements like "realism
impedes fantasy and adventure"? Fantasy and realism are not absolutes and
diametrically opposed ones at that. For example, if you assume that your
firebreathing red dragon shoots flame at your character and your character,
having no good protection, is burnt to a crisp, there are obviously elements
of both reality and fantasy. Yet you blithely assume that by making a more
realistic monetary system the fantasy is destroyed? Tell me why having a
plausible economic system phases dragons and magic out of existance? In
truth it sounds to me more like you ascribe to the limited "Dungeons and
Dragons" world view, where anything that isn't defined as acceptable by Gary
Gygax isn't allowed.
>This is the whole point about muds - its _different_ to what you have in
>real life. You can carry around 100000 gold coins, murder innocent rabbits,
>whatever the hell you like.
Murdering innocent rabbits isn't possible in reality? I see. Well, maybe
none of the real ones are innocent enough. Personally, I'd say it was a
little easier to kill innocent rabbits in real life than it is as a starting
player on your average combat MUD. It's true that the point of MUDs is to
present a different environment for the players to experience. Different
just doesn't mean physically unrealistic. Most are, and that's not a bad
thing, but they are so to varying degrees.
>Please don't get this confused with real life, real life is bound by the
>laws of (a) physics, and (b) humanity. But now and again its nice to have
>a means of escaping from these very restrictive laws, and doing something
>_different_. Enjoy this while you can!
MUDs have their own physics and humanity, usually constructed in the server
code or imposed by those running them. They can mirror reality as much or
as little as they care to do or can do (obviously simulating a reality on
the subatomic particle level would be difficult at best).
If you can't derive enjoyment by any other means than carrying around
100000 gold coins and murdering innocent rabbits, by the way, I suggest you
find a good shrink.
JUDGE DREDD
>The trouble is, as soon as you try to make it realistic, you lose the
>aspect of fantasy & adventure, and you might as well play the real-life
>game instead.
Making the game more realistic does not mean that there has to be an equal
(or unequal) loss in playability. You can selectively make facets of the
game more realistic (especially the monetary system) without causing any
damage to the quality of play. Intelligent shops are just one way to handle
different kinds of currency, and having a local exchange rate makes the
player a better shopper... kinda cool if you ask me. The thing that always
bothered ME the most was seeing players carrying most of the mud in sacks...
Buy a large sack (or seven, as we once witnessed on AH) for 200 gold coins
(that shouldn't have been gold in the first place :) and carry around the
best equipment on the mud with no mobility or weight restrictions... yeah,
that's pretty realistic. Kinda like George Jetson's fold-up spacecar...
>This is the whole point about muds - its _different_ to what you have in
>real life. You can carry around 100000 gold coins, murder innocent rabbits,
>whatever the hell you like.
Oh, so it's NEAT to carry 1 gashmillion gold coins because you can't do that
in real life? No, NEAT is being able to playerkill a creation that some poor
fool on the other side of the continent/world has invested 15 or so days of
his time in... now THAT'S cool. :) As for murdering innocent rabbits and
doing whatever the hell you like, you can still manage that nicely with a
realistic and more appropriate monetary system.
>Please don't get this confused with real life, real life is bound by the
>laws of (a) physics, and (b) humanity. But now and again its nice to have
>a means of escaping from these very restrictive laws, and doing something
>_different_. Enjoy this while you can!
I'll have to remember that carrying 1 gashmillion coins is being different.
If you want to defy the laws of physics, play a superhero. If you want to
defy the laws of humanity, become a playerkiller. Carrying 1 gashmillion
coins around has nothing to do with either one.
Jim LaBreck - n874...@henson.cc.wwu.edu - JUDGE DREDD
James Baker
>From: ig...@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Igor D. Divjak)
>Subject: Re: MUD Economies
>Date: 4 Nov 1993 16:19:13 -0500
>In <YgqJyTm00...@andrew.cmu.edu> Brian Scott Butler <bb...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>I recently found an archived e-mail message about a MUD called Shattered
>>Worlds that has an economy that was actually designed based on an
>>economic model.
>>What are some MU*s that have interesting economic components? For
>>example, trading or Player run stores, etc.
>Well about the only systems that I've seen involve paying rent for keeping
>your character equiped, buying potions and auctioning items. I've logged onto
>a lot of muds (all of them diku's) and never seen another system. Does anyone
>have any ideas that they think could work?
>
>ig...@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
I would suggest trying Lusty mud and looking at its player run economy, but
Lusty (the head wiz) is very touchy any more.
James
Blackpool
without posting access to this newsgroup, I'm posting this for him:
Indeed, the closed economic model was originally conceived of by myself
long before Illior came to my attention. But as they say, from the blossoms of
one man's ideas, come the fruits of another man's labors.
Mobydick took what started as just a basic sketch of my ideas and turned
out a blueprint for a probably self-sufficent, working, closed ecomony using
various daemons to control the work. I've never seen this model in actual code
to say if it works or not.
If I may digress for a moment to the point on realism. If you've played
Harn, or the computer game known as Darklands, you will see more clearly what
I'm about to say. MUDs, IMHO should be as realistic as you want them to be.
Granted, overburdoning players with data and facts can be quite boring to them.
But who's to say that the armor and weapon types can't be realistic. That
combat can't be made to rely on things within each character beyond stats.
Realism is a fine line when it comes to game design. You can use as much
realism as you want, a game could have it so that if your player dies, it gets
erased.. it's all a question of what your user base wants, and what YOU wish
for it to do. Make all your realms based on a certain mythos, or how a country
supposedly looked at one time if you like, thats why we have such diversity
now. But lets remember, fun and realism need not be strangers, and neither
fantasy and realsim need to be opposites, if you use your head, the mesh quite
nicely.
As for a realistic weight system, there is one designed, but just not made
public. But it includes affects for carrying to much on your skills, dex, and
exhaustion. It all just takes some thought.
Prydain@woodstock,savage garden,tmi-2