Releasing broken code (was Re: Smaug Vs. Circle)
Adam Wozniak
>On 23 Mar 1999 08:24:24 -0500, j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>...snip
>> I like Circle, I use it myself. I just wish Jeremy had shipped
>>it broken, so only those with a clue could run it. :)
>
>You really want a couple hundred people asking for information?
>You're a glutton for punishment. I would think it's bad enough when
>people are too lazy to do a search at Yahoo or Lycos for general MUD
>information.
>
I always thought it was lame that people released broken code. It forever
biased me against those codebases; everytime I heard anything about them
from others, all I heard was "it's broke", and nothing about what good
features it might have.
On the other hand, I think the world would have been a different place if
there were no public mudlibs for lp/dgd/whatever. I'd expect to see
fewer muds, but of higher quality.
--Adam
--
ad...@mudlist.eorbit.net
ICQ 27422092
ajj
[snip]
-I'd expect to see
-fewer muds, but of higher quality.
does it really matter how many muds are out there??!??
variety is the spice of life - so they say ... just go out and look for a
good one that suits you.. at least in this you have a huge choice..
aj
'*Go Garratty!*'
bachman - The Long Walk
Stephen Keen
ajj wrote in message ...
>
>[snip]
>-I'd expect to see
>-fewer muds, but of higher quality.
>
>does it really matter how many muds are out there??!??
>
>variety is the spice of life - so they say ... just go out and look for a
>good one that suits you.. at least in this you have a huge choice..
>
>aj
>
It matters how many muds are out there when the majority are
virtually the same stock codebases over and over..
Steve
Stig Hemmer
> It matters how many muds are out there when the majority are
> virtually the same stock codebases over and over..
Because out of every hundred copycat muds, one will be inspire its
Admin(s) to greater deeds. That one mud will then either be modified
into a new and great experience, or even recoded from scratch into an
even greater experience.
Stig Hemmer,
Jack of a Few Trades.
Stig Hemmer
ad...@mudlist.eorbit.net (Adam Wozniak) writes:
> On the other hand, I think the world would have been a different place if
> there were no public mudlibs for lp/dgd/whatever. I'd expect to see
Yeah, there would probably be _one_ LPMud, called Genesis. It would
probably have been of higher quality than the _average_ LPmud of our
world, but (I guess) lower than Genesis of our world.
And then there would have been more Diku derivates.
Aristotle
And that means whenever someone potentially new to the hobby decides to 'try
out muds', there is a 99% chance he/she will try out a shitty one. This will
result in them concluding: "Wow, muds are lame. I'm going back to
Diablo/Ultima Online/etc."
-Aristotle (thre...@threshold-rpg.com)
======================================================================
Join us at Threshold!
~*~ High Fantasy Multi-User Online Role Playing Game ~*~
http://www.threshold-rpg.com -or- telnet threshold-rpg.com 23
-= Hawk =-
> And that means whenever someone potentially new to the hobby decides to 'try
> out muds', there is a 99% chance he/she will try out a shitty one. This will
> result in them concluding: "Wow, muds are lame. I'm going back to
> Diablo/Ultima Online/etc."
And thats a bad thing?
--
---
.---. .-----------
/ \ __ / ------
/ / \(,,)/ -----
////// ' \/ ` ---
//// / // : : ---
// / / /` '-- -= /-//-\\/\/]< =-
// //..\\ hawk...@mindspring.com
====UU====UU====
'//||\\` http://home.mindspring.com/~hawkster
''``
Wildman, the Cuberstalker
wrote:
>Aristotle wrote:
>> And that means whenever someone potentially new to the hobby decides to
>> 'try out muds', there is a 99% chance he/she will try out a shitty one.
>> This will result in them concluding: "Wow, muds are lame. I'm going back
>> to Diablo/Ultima Online/etc."
>
>And thats a bad thing?
It is when the number of players to muds ratio is decreasing.
--
The Wildman ICQ# 32609427
Fight spam - http://www.spamfree.org
Five is a sufficiently close approximation to infinity.
taerin
the world will be a much different place if there were no public
mudlibs, but actually i'm glad personally that there are public code
bases to give us mud admin/coders some option.
here's my story. i started with a silly 1.2a about 4 years ago, but was
forced to abandon it due to the deterioration of the code (we got
'spaghetti' from not managing the input from our coders well - we just
let them at the code).
in search of stability, i moved to circle 3.0 pl 9 about 2 years ago to
begin with a clean slate (like someone mentioned further down this
thread), but made the same mistake and got spaghetti code again. :(
last year i started with circle 3.0 pl 12 and implemented the revisions
personally. since then we've imported the mud libs and features from our
beloved silly base, doubling number of lines of the initial code. we
also wrote converters and imported a ton of areas from other code bases,
then modified them to balance the silly-esque combat routines, etc.
next to strict revision control, the best recommendation i have to
everyone out there towards stability is to match all your fopens and
fcloses :) the stock base and patches do not match them up very well.
everything took about 2500 man-hours, but we've got an interesting cross
between silly and circle, and (finally!) something that's stable out to
a week or two with 60-70 players tooling around bumping off uglies.
most people hated me for deciding to go to a stock system, then trying
to build up to the old glory. the players felt cheated for investing
some years of play. some stayed, suffering through the near-stock
period. now, surprisingly, many original people have returned. i'm happy
with the project now, but could not have done it without the generosity
of the public mudlibs.
sorry for blabbing,
-taerin
wintermute
circlemud snippets also available here
http:/mute.starweb.net/
Adam Wozniak wrote:
[snip]
Aristotle
>Aristotle wrote:
>> And that means whenever someone potentially new to the hobby decides to 'try
>> out muds', there is a 99% chance he/she will try out a shitty one. This will
>> result in them concluding: "Wow, muds are lame. I'm going back to
>> Diablo/Ultima Online/etc."
>
>And thats a bad thing?
Yup, it is a very bad thing. As a result of this phenomenon, the mudding hobby
is hardly growing, while internet usage is exploding. As Wildman noted in his
response, the players to mud ratio is dropping, and it is harder and harder
for "good muds" to grow.
If potential new entrants to the hobby had a good chance of finding a good (or
even decent) mud, rather than some piece of crap, the hobby as a whole would
benefit as the number of participants grew. Also, all of these new people
would likely bring in their friends, thus the growth is exponential.
Instead, only the big corporate giant internet games are able to thrive.
Gordon McGregor
> If potential new entrants to the hobby had a good chance of finding a good (or
> even decent) mud, rather than some piece of crap, the hobby as a whole would
> benefit as the number of participants grew. Also, all of these new people
> would likely bring in their friends, thus the growth is exponential.
>
> Instead, only the big corporate giant internet games are able to thrive.
In some ways I agree that the amount of stock, uninteresting MUDs is to
blame for the decline in numbers of participants. I also think that a
lack of ease of use is to blame. All the expensive, giant internet
games have one thing in common, over 'traditional' MUDs. They are
very simple for the 'average man in the street' to pick up and play.
MUDs plain aren't. Compare and contrast with the current popularity
of text adventures in the PC marketplace. There you go... I think
many people are just failing to accept the fact that the world is moving
on. This doesn't mean that MUDs are dead, just that maybe it is about
time we tried to evolve and move forwards ourselves, rather than
continue further into a text-only niche. If we are going to stay
as a text-only medium, then the quality has to be vastly better.
The argument about the ability of books to captivate one through
the imagination is a good one. It is the reason why I tend to read
more books a week than TV programs that I watch. However, the number
of literary interesting MUDs in existence is vanishingly small. If
MUDs continue to be h'n's themed then they are almost guaranteed to
lose out to UO/ quake servers, etc.
I guess the key would be to provide something novel and not compete head
to head with graphical lost common denominator type games that have
mass appeal. In that area MUDs will lose.
What can MUDs add that can't be found in either first/third person
networked shoot-em ups, or in group rl role-playing sessions ?
If someone can answer that, then I guess they could move things forward
a whole lot. These problems aren't going to be solved by some clever
coding innovation in the game internals, much though people have
disagreed with me in the past that good code is required for MUDs.
Of course solid code is required, it just doesn't mean the MUD is
good. In a similar manner, I don't think that a Mud Transfer
Protocol that allowed people to wander aimlessly around an even
vaster landscape, with fewer people on it really adds very much.
It isn't too hard to code something up that provides portals between
MUDs, I've written it in the past. However, political and technical
arguments aside, it doesn't actually add very much to the experience,
once you've done it a few times. The potential for world-wide
scavenger hunt type quests, or protracted chases/ races are interesting,
but don't present a quantum leap forward in game design.
Gordon stirring controversy in his cauldron
I'd be interested in hearing folk's thoughts. Who knows, I might
just get around to writing that Imaginary Realities article on
this some day. Hmm, best finish the other 3 papers I've got to
write first...
--
Gordon McGregor
Design Engineer
SoCDT UK, Motorola
Tel: +44 (0)1606 815412
Fax: +44 (0)1606 815401
Ilya
>
> What can MUDs add that can't be found in either first/third person
> networked shoot-em ups, or in group rl role-playing sessions ?
> If someone can answer that, then I guess they could move things forward
> a whole lot. These problems aren't going to be solved by some clever
> coding innovation in the game internals, much though people have
> disagreed with me in the past that good code is required for MUDs.
> Of course solid code is required, it just doesn't mean the MUD is
> good.
Excellent points, friend. I'd suggest the following as things
muds offer which give them an edge over rl roleplaying sessions
1- it can be a pain to find people to play with, especially as
you get beyond college years. Schedules get hectic, real
life intrudes, jobs and wives and babies get in the way,
friends move away, etc.
2- the lamer problem - too many of the people who continue in
roleplaying through their adult years are seriously
unpleasant. I enjoy face-to-face roleplaying immensely,
but not with people who I'd never have anything to do with
in other circumstances.
3- timing - it's getting harder and harder to set aside entire
nights (and/or all-nighters) for roleplaying, as fun as that
has been! With almost any mud you can get on for a bit, play
a bit, and leave when you want to. Admittedly, some of the
RP muds can make this a bit awkward, but it's still way easier
than walking out on a room full of people.
Muds are no ideal solution to any of these problems, but they
have an edge in all of them.
As for the shoot-em-ups, they've never really appealed to me,
so I don't see any conflict. That is, I'd never play one, no
matter how well done they were. No interest. It'd be hard
for me to come up with reasons why muds are better, then, since
I see little or no appeal to the shooters. Perhaps another can
jump in on this one.
Cheers,
Ilya
>
> Gordon stirring controversy in his cauldron
>
> --
> Gordon McGregor
> Design Engineer
> SoCDT UK, Motorola
> Tel: +44 (0)1606 815412
> Fax: +44 (0)1606 815401
--
Ilya (at) gamecommandos (dot) com a mud list & review site
www.gamecommandos.com for online roleplaying games
Adric
movies that have been winning academy awards as an indication of what we
think of as great. Titanic was not half the movie LA Confidential was. If
this were 20 years ago, LA Confidential would have set records. But people
just can't make themselves think when it comes to tv's and movies, and the
same is happening for computers. Simplicity is being used as a marketting
tool.
Muds should be simplier when you first start, but Muds will never be as
simplistic as the common man. Its a sad fact, but true.
What we should try to do is put our forces together muds. There are too
many Muds with too few people. Less Muds would mean more people on same
mud, means more interaction and more fun.
I haven't been around that long, but i've never seen two muds merge,
something that I would think a common occurence in these days...
- Adric
Ilya <il...@spam.free.gamecommandos.com> wrote in message
news:37024D9B...@spam.free.gamecommandos.com...
NightShade
Gordon McGregor wrote in message <37020C21...@email.sps.mot.com>...
>Aristotle wrote:
>
>> If potential new entrants to the hobby had a good chance of finding a
good (or
would
>> benefit as the number of participants grew. Also, all of these new people
>> would likely bring in their friends, thus the growth is exponential.
>>
>> Instead, only the big corporate giant internet games are able to thrive.
>
>In some ways I agree that the amount of stock, uninteresting MUDs is to
>blame for the decline in numbers of participants. I also think that a
>lack of ease of use is to blame. All the expensive, giant internet
>games have one thing in common, over 'traditional' MUDs. They are
>very simple for the 'average man in the street' to pick up and play.
As a side thought, it is funny how kids pick up computer skills younger
every day, getting better at things like coding than oldbie vets who are
active in the programming for years, yet mainstream interrest remains in
graphical thingies with limited gameplay interrest...
>MUDs plain aren't. Compare and contrast with the current popularity
>of text adventures in the PC marketplace. There you go... I think
>many people are just failing to accept the fact that the world is moving
>on. This doesn't mean that MUDs are dead, just that maybe it is about
>time we tried to evolve and move forwards ourselves, rather than
>continue further into a text-only niche. If we are going to stay
>as a text-only medium, then the quality has to be vastly better.
>
>The argument about the ability of books to captivate one through
>the imagination is a good one. It is the reason why I tend to read
>more books a week than TV programs that I watch. However, the number
>of literary interesting MUDs in existence is vanishingly small. If
>MUDs continue to be h'n's themed then they are almost guaranteed to
>lose out to UO/ quake servers, etc.
>
Don't forget you're an exception. Unfortunately, people tend to read less
and less... another factor which contributes to the success of netquakes and
such.
>I guess the key would be to provide something novel and not compete head
>to head with graphical lost common denominator type games that have
>mass appeal. In that area MUDs will lose.
I wonder if the fans of the roguelike game series are decreasing as well...
Hm, oughta check some of these NG once in a while, oughta be an interresting
comparison.
>
>What can MUDs add that can't be found in either first/third person
>networked shoot-em ups, or in group rl role-playing sessions ?
Ilya gave a bunch of clues, I'll ad one, which may be my personal reason to
like 'em:
A MUD combines RP aspects (actually often more solo adventures ;-) with
chatting to some extent. I love ICQ, and I love RPGs. In a MUD, I can meet
un a place with people and chat about common interrests or anything else for
a while, then move on to gaming a bit...
>If someone can answer that, then I guess they could move things forward
>a whole lot. These problems aren't going to be solved by some clever
>coding innovation in the game internals, much though people have
>disagreed with me in the past that good code is required for MUDs.
>Of course solid code is required, it just doesn't mean the MUD is
>good.
I'll compare that to generic software evolution: a software has to be stable
for people to use it (which still makes me wonder how M$ managed to get so
much money out of Windows... err, sorry for this rant ;-), but stability is
only a tiny part of the success of a software. Ease-of-use is much more
about it. Actually, the problem has to be considered through the other end:
People will use any software which has a sexy interface, is easy to use and
has nigty features they need or think they might need. Yet if it is buggy,
poorely coded, only partially optimised or just plain lacking stability,
people will eventually stop using it for a competing product. I think that
applies to MUDs as well.
>In a similar manner, I don't think that a Mud Transfer
>Protocol that allowed people to wander aimlessly around an even
>vaster landscape, with fewer people on it really adds very much.
>It isn't too hard to code something up that provides portals between
>MUDs, I've written it in the past. However, political and technical
>arguments aside, it doesn't actually add very much to the experience,
>once you've done it a few times. The potential for world-wide
>scavenger hunt type quests, or protracted chases/ races are interesting,
>but don't present a quantum leap forward in game design.
MTE...
--
NightShade aka SoulBlighter aka Alastair on some worlds
NightShade
>MUDs plain aren't. Compare and contrast with the current popularity
>of text adventures in the PC marketplace. There you go... I think
>many people are just failing to accept the fact that the world is moving
>on. This doesn't mean that MUDs are dead, just that maybe it is about
>time we tried to evolve and move forwards ourselves, rather than
>continue further into a text-only niche. If we are going to stay
>as a text-only medium, then the quality has to be vastly better.
A thought from my own coding experience (yeah, I'm aware of the fact that I
might be rushing open doors for many great MUDs around here, but could be
some idea for others ;-) :
Increase Quality Control effectiveness. I would for instance suggest that a
new area is always QCed by two persons: One will focus on code (OK, this
applies mainly to LPs, but in Dikus, the controllers would make sure that
all the needed elements are properly set according to the Quality Charta,
like proper heal rates, lights, locations, presence of extra descs for exits
and special items etc...), the second one strictly on descriptions. It
_does_ get hard sometimes when coding a forest to find 50+ ways to tell the
player that he's standing in a forest with a lot of trees around him, that's
where a person whith fresh ideas could come in handy. Plus, this controller
is not needed to be a sooper coding guru, he's got to have high litteracy
standards. And think about the advantages for us non-native English speakers
around, who have even more trouble to find 50+ ways to describe a forest...
--
NightShade aka SoulBlighter aka Alastair
Perpetual coder-newbie, Code-Related Admin harasser - coming soon to an LP
MUD near you (fear!) :p
Dumb Coding Question of the day: "Dammit, why do I get this error? I never
coded that in! What? Inheritance? Huh?"
Adam Wozniak
>
>>I guess the key would be to provide something novel and not compete head
>>to head with graphical lost common denominator type games that have
>>mass appeal. In that area MUDs will lose.
>
>I wonder if the fans of the roguelike game series are decreasing as well...
>Hm, oughta check some of these NG once in a while, oughta be an interresting
>comparison.
I lurk rec.games.roguelike.nethack regularly, and have for the last 5 years.
Judging from posting volume, the number of fans is at least stable, if not
growing. The number of nethack variants is also growing (slowly, which is
IMHO very healthy).
John Adelsberger
: As a side thought, it is funny how kids pick up computer skills younger
: every day, getting better at things like coding than oldbie vets who are
: active in the programming for years, yet mainstream interrest remains in
: graphical thingies with limited gameplay interrest...
Despite the common belief in this, I don't think it is true. Sure, kids
pick up basics quickly; they learn _anything_ they apply themselves to
quickly. If by 'coding' you mean adding races to a Diku derivative, then
sure, there are probably lots of middle school kids who can do that here
and there. If, on the other hand, you mean doing something of real
substance, there are lots of kids who know their abcs and grammar, but
there is a reason the classics of literature are mostly from adults:)
--
John J. Adelsberger III
j...@umr.edu
"Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
- Ayn Rand
Malcolm Valentine
<<big snip>>
>What can MUDs add that can't be found in either first/third person
>networked shoot-em ups, or in group rl role-playing sessions ?
>If someone can answer that, then I guess they could move things forward
>a whole lot. These problems aren't going to be solved by some clever
<<snipped>>
The advantage of a text-based game is that the players brain is used in
place of the 'latest & greatest' 3D gaming engine. The main advantage of
this is that the creator/s of a mud need only put their imaginations into
print, as opposed to polygons. If I want to create a spell called "screaming
blue meanies", then I just need a few text descriptions to describe this spell
rather then an enormous graphics library. I don't have to model what it looks
like when the blue meanies strike a "shield" spell from a number of different
angles, just describe it in words.
Obviously in either enviroment I must consider how my new spell interacts
with then existed objects/spells/(N)PCs, but I don't need to draw/render/(what
ever the heck they do) it.
Also, the effect is generally better when using the players imagination. It's
all to easy to create a graphical monster that looks as scary as a goldfish on
acid, with words, the player dredges up their own images of darkness...
--
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzzzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Instruction comes from another, understanding from your self.
John Adelsberger
In rec.games.mud.lp Malcolm Valentine <sp...@triode.net.au> wrote:
: The advantage of a text-based game is that the players brain is used in
: place of the 'latest & greatest' 3D gaming engine. The main advantage of
: this is that the creator/s of a mud need only put their imaginations into
: print, as opposed to polygons.
Your argument amounts to 'muds are easier to produce.' This may/may not
be true when considering quality games, but it hardly has anything to do
with advantages a player is going to care about, which, I believe, was
what was requested.
: Obviously in either enviroment I must consider how my new spell interacts
: with then existed objects/spells/(N)PCs, but I don't need to draw/render/(what
: ever the heck they do) it.
Doing good graphics isn't easier or harder than doing good text. It IS
different, and it IS a rarer skill, perhaps. I'm of the opinion that
combo graphics/text games will probably work out best, except for the
all-death-all-the-time(aka Quake) games.
rric...@lanminds.com
wrote:
>The advantage of a text-based game is that the players brain is used in
>place of the 'latest & greatest' 3D gaming engine. The main advantage of
>this is that the creator/s of a mud need only put their imaginations into
>print, as opposed to polygons.
And the players do not need the newest, fastest computers to play
them. Which is important when you get to some parts of the world.
Kira Skydancer
Remove "not" when replying by email
Todd Dugdale
MUDs plain aren't. Compare and contrast with the current popularity
of text adventures in the PC marketplace. There you go... I think
many people are just failing to accept the fact that the world is
moving
on. This doesn't mean that MUDs are dead, just that maybe it is
about
time we tried to evolve and move forwards ourselves, rather than
continue further into a text-only niche. If we are going to stay
as a text-only medium, then the quality has to be vastly better.
I don't think that text is such a major turn-off, per se. It's
*typing* that slows everything down, makes social interactions
somewhat unwieldy, and turns playing into something akin to work. I
wish that MUDs would implement some kind of audio capability, along
the lines of NetMeeting, for example, that would allow players to
talk to each other. Shortcuts, macros, and such have reduced the
amount of typing needed to play, but the RP and social aspects are
still mired in text.
Also, sound would add an interesting dimension to MUDs. I've yet to
see a functioning MSP MUD. If you could hear the door creak as you
open it, or your weapon being drawn, or the mob crying in pain, then
you reinforce the imagination. You can still imagine the landscapes,
the rooms, the mobs, although the link between web sites and MUDs
allows graphics to be portrayed. You can see what a wyvern looks
like, for example, on the site and then imagine it when you actually
fight it.
One overlooked advantage of MUDs is that you don't need a fast
connection or a high-end system to enjoy them. A 486 with a 28.8
connection will do fine. Graphical games, however, require a
substantial investment in accelerator hardware, monitor, RAM,
processor, etc. as well as a need to continually update these as the
cutting edge moves forward.
The bottom line, though, is that if you want to bring in the
uninitiated, you must provide *helpful and patient* Imms, present a
coherent and engaging storyline, and drop much of the arcane
terminology that makes outsiders feel that it's something very
complicated (i.e. not fun), and give those willing to dive into
mudding for the first time a couple of breaks when they get killed or
lose their equip or whatever.
R. Nathaniel Azinger
rric...@lanminds.com wrote:
<snip>
> And the players do not need the newest, fastest computers to play
> them. Which is important when you get to some parts of the world.
Hehe. Reminds me of the time I downloaded the FF7 demo onto my
puny old 100mhz pentium. I tried to run it and my computer
actually LAUGHED at me.
-Nat
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Malcolm Valentine
<<snipped>>
> Also, sound would add an interesting dimension to MUDs. I've yet to
>see a functioning MSP MUD. If you could hear the door creak as you
>open it, or your weapon being drawn, or the mob crying in pain, then
If you really want this and you have a half-decent client, you can add
this yourself, for every mud you play. Not that I think sound is a bad
thing for a mud, just something to be added after more important things.
>you reinforce the imagination. You can still imagine the landscapes,
>the rooms, the mobs, although the link between web sites and MUDs
>allows graphics to be portrayed. You can see what a wyvern looks
>like, for example, on the site and then imagine it when you actually
>fight it.
<<snipped>>
Not to be too picky, but I think that the above should read something like
"see what a wyvern could look like". Remember, this is fantasy, and while
a pictures can be pretty people have a habit of using them in arguments.
"Your picture of the barbarian shows her wielding two whips, why can't I
wield two whips?"
Also, not every mud has a talented, artistic graphics person willing to
spend the time creating these images, would you hold that against the mud?
I thought the rest of your post was quite valid.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_
Instruction comes from another, ZZZzzzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
understanding from your self. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Malcolm Valentine
John Adelsberger
: And the players do not need the newest, fastest computers to play
: them. Which is important when you get to some parts of the world.
Machines capable of doing whatever graphics you might reasonably put into
such a game are selling for well under $1000 today. Certainly, this will
cut into the playercount from Eastern Slobovia, but the question comes to
mind: Why should anyone care? Nobody sat around fretting over anyone's
inability to play text muds from various places back in the early 80's;
why should it be different now?
Laurel Fan
John Adels...@umr.edu
> such a game are selling for well under $1000 today. Certainly, this will
> cut into the playercount from Eastern Slobovia, but the question comes to
> mind: Why should anyone care? Nobody sat around fretting over anyone's
> inability to play text muds from various places back in the early 80's;
> why should it be different now?
Text muds are also platform independant. I can play on my roommates
Windows box, then move to my Linux box, or to the Solaris machines in
the computer lab. Same game, same identity. I can even go home and
play on my neurotic OS2/DOS/NT/Linux box at home with the modem that
occasionally thinks it would be a good idea to operate at 9600 baud.
You can do this with Java, but really nice graphics are really slow as
well as really hard to do on most VMs.
Text also has the advantage of being easily machine readable. Anyone
can write a client or a script to look at text output from a mud and
filter it or do more interesting things for the user.
IMO, I don't think graphical muds will "make it" until we have
1. Fast, cross platform, and nice looking graphics.
2. An open mud graphics lib or graphical server lib.
3. Reasonable, open client protocol or customizable/open source clients.
One project that I've seen working towards this goal is CrystalSpace at
<http://crystal.linuxgames.com>. Its a rather nice looking 3D rendering
engine, and not really for muds (or anything) specifically, but I think
it has potential to be used as a graphical mud client... Despite the
"linux" in the URL, they've got about 10 platforms on their ports list
(and no, they didn't list every unix variant and architecture..).
Ingar Smedstad
Laurel Fan wrote in message <8r1Pi4200...@andrew.cmu.edu>...
[...]
>IMO, I don't think graphical muds will "make it" until we have
> 1. Fast, cross platform, and nice looking graphics.
> 2. An open mud graphics lib or graphical server lib.
> 3. Reasonable, open client protocol or customizable/open source clients.
Have a look at what they are trying to create at WorldForge (formerly
Altima)
at <http://www.altima.org>. It's open source, they intend for people to be
able
to use the engines to create worlds for themselves. They plan for it to be
everything that Ultima Online was not, but should have been.
Mik Clarke
> One overlooked advantage of MUDs is that you don't need a fast
>connection or a high-end system to enjoy them. A 486 with a 28.8
>connection will do fine. Graphical games, however, require a
>substantial investment in accelerator hardware, monitor, RAM,
>processor, etc. as well as a need to continually update these as the
>cutting edge moves forward.
This would indicate the need for a 'dual format' interface which can
package text and sound/graphics triggers into the messages they send
down to the client. On a text only client you just see the text
messages, but on more advanced clients you get the sound and/or
graphics (or just plain text if that part of the mud doesn't support
the advanced stuff). Amongst other things this allows text based
players to interact with graphical players. There is not a
significant banwidth hit on the mud, because all that is being sent
are triggers - play sound
http://www.sideserver.mymud.cx/snds/thump.wav or show graphics
sequence http://www.sidesever.mymud.cx/gseq/punch.gsq between char
@P37589 and char@P45837. These extra instructions would only be sent
if requested and the client would have to manage the cache (with hints
from the mud telling it to preload things).
John Adelsberger
: "Todd Dugdale" <sir...@tiny.net> wrote:
: > One overlooked advantage of MUDs is that you don't need a fast
: >connection or a high-end system to enjoy them. A 486 with a 28.8
: >connection will do fine. Graphical games, however, require a
: >substantial investment in accelerator hardware, monitor, RAM,
: >processor, etc. as well as a need to continually update these as the
: >cutting edge moves forward.
This isn't really true anymore. El-cheapo garbage from Billybob's Bargain
Barn(ie, stuff in the sub-$1000 price range) will run Quake III the day it
ships, as one example, and run it _well._
: This would indicate the need for a 'dual format' interface which can
: package text and sound/graphics triggers into the messages they send
: down to the client.
A very bad idea if you want to create anything more than a text mud with
some pretty pictures and sound tacked on as an afterthought.
SJG
Adam Wozniak <ad...@mudlist.eorbit.net> wrote:
>NightShade <mario.l...@getthetrapsentenceoutahere.span.ch> wrote:
>>I wonder if the fans of the roguelike game series are decreasing as well...
>>Hm, oughta check some of these NG once in a while, oughta be an interresting
>>comparison.
>
>I lurk rec.games.roguelike.nethack regularly, and have for the last 5 years.
>
>Judging from posting volume, the number of fans is at least stable, if not
>growing. The number of nethack variants is also growing (slowly, which is
>IMHO very healthy).
>
>--Adam
I've lurked in rgr.angband and rgr.adom as well, which also have a good
stable user base. New variants of Angband are coming out all the time as
well (at an even faster rate than NetHack variants I believe...), and ADOM
is supposedly popular enough to have gone 'commercial'... though I haven't
really read to what extent.
SJG
Mik Clarke
>In rec.games.mud.lp Mik Clarke <mik...@ibm.net> wrote:
>: This would indicate the need for a 'dual format' interface which can
>: package text and sound/graphics triggers into the messages they send
>: down to the client.
>
>A very bad idea if you want to create anything more than a text mud with
>some pretty pictures and sound tacked on as an afterthought.
Now why would that be? The user interface is just a mechanism for
visualizing the interactions that are occuring within the virtual
world. If I want to inform the user that Tom has hit Dick, then I can
either put up a text message or animate their avatars. It's like
radio and television, where the same events are depicted but different
means have to be used to depict them.
John Adelsberger
: The user interface is just a mechanism for
: visualizing the interactions that are occuring within the virtual
: world.
The virtual world is designed around a particular interface; you can say
that it shouldn't be so, but it is and it will continue to be, because of
modelling constraints. Simply put, the corners you cut on a _good_
graphical system aren't the same corners you cut on a good text system,
and the things you emphasize(due to being good at doing them) on each
are different also. I know of _one_ person whose system _might_ do what
you're suggesting passably well, except that it'll probably never see the
light of day(Mr. Yospe.) Unless you care to do something similarly
sophisticated simulation-wise, your idea is going to work poorly.
: If I want to inform the user that Tom has hit Dick, then I can
: either put up a text message or animate their avatars. It's like
: radio and television, where the same events are depicted but different
: means have to be used to depict them.
Hitting people is hardly the extent of the complexity of a worthwhile
game. Do you intend to code parallel actions for everything possible?
Even if you do, you're still stuck, because the level of detail desirable
or even POSSIBLE for the same thing in different 'media' is quite different,
and this will affect gameplay to some extent or other, and some ways of
doing things(eg. having colored potions) give distinct advantages to the
player who can actually see them instead of having to type a command to
check them.
Paradox
Earlier on in the thread, someone mentioned that pay to play MUDs were
thriving. I thought about this for a minute, then I remembered a key topic
in several books I've read.
The little man seeks to assert his power any way he can. To have an entire
philosophy or world change because of something you did is a very powerful
"high" that people strive to get. Many people, because of social status,
plain bad luck, or laziness cannot achieve this level of influence. And when
the little man achieves a bit of power, it can go straight to his head and
run out of control simply because he revels in the chance to finally alter
the course of lives.
This is where most of our problems begin. Most people build MUDs with good
intentions. Unfortunetly, things go bad or the original coders leave the mud
for some reason and people with no "influence" take command. These people
have absolutely no experiance in politics or any other aministration duties.
The sheer command over the lives of people goes straight to their heads.
They become power-mad, controllers, petty politicians. In short, they become
assholes. This is the downfall of many MUDs. When the ruling class becomes
unruly, the population packs up and moves.
Pay to play MUDs have the liberty of a dedicated staff who are payed for
their abilities. They know if they fuck with people like that, they simply
aren't payed anymore and their character erased. People may argue that
asshole wizards can be removed too on free MUDs, but what about when the
asshole wizard is the Admin, or the admin just doesn't care. Can't happen on
PTP MUDs, their customers would vanish taking valuable dollars with them.
The MUD will improve when people realize that it's just a game, and because
you are a god of a MUD doesn't make you better than the pimply faced sweaty
300lb man you really are. (Stereotype, take no insult good admins)
I could be wrong, this is just my opinion.
Paradox.
Aristotle
>I could be wrong, this is just my opinion.
>
>Paradox.
I just wanted to ask: Do you really think you have struck upon a revelation
that because of the 'profit motive', admin of pay to play muds have an
incentive to listen to players and not abuse their userbase?
I mean, is this some kind of miraculous revelation?
Paradox
the disscussion.
Paradox
Aristotle
>Not a revelation. Just pointing something out that I though was missing in
>the disscussion.
Ah, in that case, I apologize for my sarcastic tone.
Your points were quite true, imho, and I agreed with them. They just seemed at
first to be posted as if they were new and original analyses. =)
NightShade
John Adelsberger wrote in message <3703d...@news.cc.umr.edu>...
>In rec.games.mud.lp NightShade
<mario.l...@getthetrapsentenceoutahere.span.ch> wrote:
>
>: As a side thought, it is funny how kids pick up computer skills younger
>: every day, getting better at things like coding than oldbie vets who are
>: active in the programming for years, yet mainstream interrest remains in
>: graphical thingies with limited gameplay interrest...
>
>Despite the common belief in this, I don't think it is true. Sure, kids
>pick up basics quickly; they learn _anything_ they apply themselves to
>quickly. If by 'coding' you mean adding races to a Diku derivative, then
>sure, there are probably lots of middle school kids who can do that here
>and there. If, on the other hand, you mean doing something of real
>substance, there are lots of kids who know their abcs and grammar, but
>there is a reason the classics of literature are mostly from adults:)
Actually, what I had in mind was more like LP mudlibs, I never set my nose
into Diku races :-)
Point taken, though. Areas written by twelve-years old kids usually look
like... written by a 12 years-old ;)
--
NightShade aka SoulBlighter aka Alastair
Recursion champion