[AD] Medievia, enroll for a lifetime
Vryce The God of all Muds
Praise me like you should for I am Vryce God of all Muds. I alone coded
the greatest mud in the known world and for that people detest me. Only
I, Vryce, can make 500-600 mudders happy on a daily basis. So what if
med is based on diku code, I have overhauled that lame code with my own
VryceCode (TM). Hear me mortals leave your current muds and join the
revolution that is Medievia. Here are 38 reasons to join med now (read
38 btw):
1. Adversary: A game inside the game where you can play until you die!
2. Auction: Players can buy and sell equipment via this truly unique
auction system.
3. Bloodlines: Players can have children, start a bloodline, or be in
one when they are born.
4. Breath: When you walk too fast you actually run out of breath.
5. Camping: Leaving Medievia has never been easier or more cool.
6. Casino: Play cards with other players or try your luck at our slot
machines.
7. Catacombs: Truly the most amazing zone in Medievia. Have you the
courage to enter it?
8. Catastrophes: Large area's are affected by catastrophes that sets the
demand for that areas trading very high.
9. Clans: Players form together and make a clan. We simulate clans just
as they were in old Scotland.
10. ClanTowns: Clans buy and build their own clantowns which they need
to defend from Mob Factions.
11. Classes: Our classes (Mage,Warrior,Cleric & Thief) are kept at a
perfect balance and are always being improved upon.
12.Communication: Telepath, clantalk, kingdomtalk, pray, dream,
formation talk....
13. Death: It is a good day to die. Especially in this game; read on!
14. Dragons: What Medievial game would be complete without these
legendary beasts?
15. Dragon Lairs: It may take a dozen or more Heroes to kill one, do
you DARE enter?
16. Flying: Fly on dragon back! Medievia is so large we had to have
faster forms of travel than walking.
17. Formations: Configurable formations for players to join up. Combat
in Medievia is truly stunning.
18. Hero Battles: Watch Heroes battle it out in the hero arena. You can
even Wager on the outcome!
19. Homes: Trading going well? Have a lot of gold? Buy your own home
right in Medievia.
20. Loans: Your clan needs some gold to expand its ClanTown? Take a loan
out.
21. Lockers: Sometimes you just have so much STUFF you can't hold it
all in your backpack.
22. Medlink: Tired of playing? Type LINK and pop right top Medlink! A
place where players chill.
23. Mob Factions: (Trading variety) Ever try to trade with Virtual Mobs
attacking you and taking your freight?
24. Mounting: Why walk when you can ride on a horse or any other
creature willing to carry you?
25. Mud Mail: You can send letters or objects to anyone in the game.
Mudslinger Our own newspaper! New articles weekly, in-depth interviews,
fiction, and columns.
26. Multi-Level Requirement: In Medievia you need more than just
experience to gain levels.
27. News: We keep you up to date with a state of the art NEWS module.
28. Prompt: That's right, you see it at all times, THE PROMPT. Ours is
as good as it gets with changing colors and many alerts.
29. Quests: We have 3 Quest gods who do nothing but design and run
quests.
30. Ranged Weapons: Our Formation code makes combat very tactic and
strategy heavy. These weapons increase this affect.
31. Skills: Dozens of skills for the Warriors and Theives.
32. Spells: Dozens of spells for Mages and Clerics.
33. Storms: Medievia has its own weather system with storms and storm
tracking. 34. Magical storms: and even fire rain have been known in
Medievia. Check it out!
35. Survey: Survey is like looking around far off. You see campfire
smoke, dragons flying, spires, castles, mountains...
36. Trading: Medievia has a complete player driven supply and demand
economy. Take part; make your fortune.
37. Tracking: When ever you move in Medievia you leave your scent. Scary
what may follow that scent, isn't it?
and 38. Med has the 2 greatest mud players of all time in the world
THARGHAN and DAEDALUS.
AxL
Definitely could never be the real Vryce; there's to many big
words.
--
-AxL, a...@wpcr.plymouth.edu "In Christianity, neither morality nor religion
a...@mail.plymouth.edu Come into contact with reality at any point."
http://mindwarp.plymouth.edu/~axl - Nietzsche
Fallen One
this post.
Apart from pointing out that most of your reasons are pretty basic stuff
pretending to be revolutionary I'd like to say you made one good reason
'not' to go to medievia
1. Vryce
Fallen. Some people don't want to get back up.
tel...@xenon.triode.net.au
> Well done Vryce, to be perfectly honest I had no idea about medievia before
> this post.
> Apart from pointing out that most of your reasons are pretty basic stuff
> pretending to be revolutionary I'd like to say you made one good reason
> 'not' to go to medievia
> 1. Vryce
It must have been a spoof, no one would really post an advert for
themselves saying ``I am God''...
- Tel
KaVir
>
> Definitely could never be the real Vryce; there's to
>many big words.
And Vryce never admits to using Diku code.
KaVir.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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S H
sojourn mud with too much petty additional crap, with too few classes,
without lots of the *truly* awesome zones/code/strategies, and without
*lots* of the greatest players.
R.I.P. Sojourn.
brian moore
KaVir <richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote:
> a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
> >
> > Definitely could never be the real Vryce; there's to
> >many big words.
>
> And Vryce never admits to using Diku code.
Ya' know, I'm really tempted to pass around the copy of MedIV I found in
the street a couple years ago so people can experience Vryce's talents
for themselves.
(So amazing to see that Merc stole so much from Vryce... heck, Furey
even copied Vryce's comments! But Vryce, being so wise and omniscient
knew that Furey would do that, and being compassionate to lesser beings,
the Great Vryce even put Furey's name in the comment to make Furey's job
easier.)
Of course, by referring to him as 'Vryce', we're probably doing a
disservice to the man. Remember people can search usenet and potential
employers wouldn't know to search on the name 'Vryce'.
So, to keep the search engines happy, let it be known that 'Vryce' is
one Michael A Krause of Blue Bell, PA and that he has been "innovating"
(used in the full glory of the Microsoft meaning of that word -- cf
Stac Technologies) code for years. Potential employers, divorce
lawyers, and parole officers should note the "distinguished" career
and the many thousands of lines of code he's managed to, um, "innovate"
and note his methods of "innovation" in their decision-making process.
--
Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor.
Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting
Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day.
Netscum, Bane of Elves.
Vryce The God of all Muds
you had my mud but you don't so ha ! BTW I am not the Great V as it is
clearly obvious cause he is busy on his honeymoon. Yeah for V, keep up the
great work V cause we love you big guy ! kisses for everyone ! even Kavir !
ps. don't take life too seriously guys life is too short, so have fun.
Matt Knecht
>
>And Vryce never admits to using Diku code.
Not quite true anymore. http://www.medievia.com/start.html
He's claiming that since he added a lot of stuff, the license doesn't
apply to him anymore. Hmm.
--
Matt Knecht <h...@voicenet.com>
M. Whittington
<g...@god.com> wrote:
>K enough of this ... just admit that you are jealous of med. You all wish
>you had my mud but you don't so ha ! BTW I am not the Great V as it is
>clearly obvious cause he is busy on his honeymoon. Yeah for V, keep up the
>great work V cause we love you big guy ! kisses for everyone ! even Kavir !
Did he take someone else's wife on a honeymoon, and claim that she's
his? Took her ring off, too, and slipped his own in place? After
checking in, he most likely told her, "I built this hotel myself, you
know. Don't believe anyone who says differently. It's mine, and
I'm going to change the name to Hoteleivia. Soon." How much did he
charge his "wife" for the privelege?
After a few minutes of passion, did he turn on the TV and point out to
her all the shows he'd written (obviously, they were on HIS television
in HIS room of HIS hotel!)? "Oh, you think Mel Gibson is sexy? Why,
I *am* Mel Gibson!"
mmm hmmm
>ps. don't take life too seriously guys life is too short, so have fun.
ps. don't take life too seriously, life is too short ;)
Ghost
give us a break... gimmie your addy and port for your mud and I will have a real
good laugh.
PROUD MEDIEVIAN
M. Whittington
>Obviously you people did not read ... http://www.medievia.com/start.html
>give us a break... gimmie your addy and port for your mud and I will have a real
>good laugh.
>
>PROUD MEDIEVIAN
We can all read. We can read licenses too. Some people can't. I
doubt you'd like my MUD much. It's got permadeath, no levels, no
classes, no experience points, no channels, no bright ansi colors.
It doesn't have a lot of the things that I find annoying about MUDs,
including hack and slash gaming. See, it's a roleplaying MUD. It
isn't terribly popular, but then what worth doing is? We don't
charge money to play it, we do the work out of a sense of pride and
dedication to our devoted player base. In fact, I'm pretty sure
you would hate my MUD.
Harshlands can be found at photobooks.com 5000 (38.209.52.2 5000)
There is no comparison between Medeivia and Harshlands, because they
are entirely different things. One is a genuine roleplaying game,
while one is a genuine twinkfest. But, feel free to drop by.
Or just take a look at our web site at
http://www.role-play.net/harshlands
Look forward to your ridicule.
KaVir
>K enough of this ... just admit that you are jealous of med.
>You all wish you had my mud but you don't so ha !
Actually I DO have a copy of Medievia IV, although it's so
bloated I can't even run it on my little computer. Not that
it really bothers me, as I'm only interested in laughing at
the code.
KaVir
>On Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:29:38 GMT, Ghost <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
>
>>Obviously you people did not read ...
>>http://www.medievia.com/start.html
>>give us a break... gimmie your addy and port for your mud and
>>I will have a real good laugh.
>>
>>PROUD MEDIEVIAN
>
>We can all read. We can read licenses too. Some people
>can't. I doubt you'd like my MUD much. It's got permadeath,
>no levels, no classes, no experience points, no channels, no
>bright ansi colors. It doesn't have a lot of the things that I
>find annoying about MUDs, including hack and slash gaming.
>See, it's a roleplaying MUD. It isn't terribly popular, but
>then what worth doing is?
Don't forget, to Medthievians, Quantity = Quality. They find it
hard to understand muds that don't cater to the lowest common
denominator.
>There is no comparison between Medeivia and Harshlands, because
>they are entirely different things.
I disagree! Harshlands is like a small high-quality restaurant
that serves exquisite cuisines which cater to the most refined
of tastes. Medievia is like McDonalds.
>One is a genuine roleplaying game, while one is a genuine
>twinkfest. But, feel free to drop by.
He won't even get past your registration system.
Please enter your name: KewlD00d
Please enter a description for your character:
he has a big sword & u f33r him cos he kicks a$$.
Mark
give my money in support of V. Moreover give up the license argument it does not
wash. If med is so bad as you and other detractors claim ... why do 500-600 people a
night play it? Most mudders have played many muds and yet choose med as their home.
p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
"M. Whittington" wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:29:38 GMT, Ghost <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Obviously you people did not read ... http://www.medievia.com/start.html
> >give us a break... gimmie your addy and port for your mud and I will have a real
> >good laugh.
> >
> >PROUD MEDIEVIAN
>
> We can all read. We can read licenses too. Some people can't. I
> doubt you'd like my MUD much. It's got permadeath, no levels, no
> classes, no experience points, no channels, no bright ansi colors.
> It doesn't have a lot of the things that I find annoying about MUDs,
> including hack and slash gaming. See, it's a roleplaying MUD. It
> isn't terribly popular, but then what worth doing is? We don't
> charge money to play it, we do the work out of a sense of pride and
> dedication to our devoted player base. In fact, I'm pretty sure
> you would hate my MUD.
>
> Harshlands can be found at photobooks.com 5000 (38.209.52.2 5000)
>
> There is no comparison between Medeivia and Harshlands, because they
> are entirely different things. One is a genuine roleplaying game,
> while one is a genuine twinkfest. But, feel free to drop by.
>
M. Whittington
<richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote:
>He won't even get past your registration system.
>
>Please enter your name: KewlD00d
>
>Please enter a description for your character:
>he has a big sword & u f33r him cos he kicks a$$.
>
>KaVir.
I'll let you know if KewlD00d applies :)
M. Whittington
<flamesom...@flamesomeoneelse.com> wrote:
>I guess you do not understand the definition of donation. I play med and I freely
>give my money in support of V. Moreover give up the license argument it does not
>wash. If med is so bad as you and other detractors claim ... why do 500-600 people a
>night play it? Most mudders have played many muds and yet choose med as their home.
Well, it still breaks the license. You should read it sometime.
As to why 500 to 600 people a night play it, do you know that Baywatch
was, during its hayday, the most popular television show on the
planet? McDonald's is very popular. Commercial TV is popular.
And what do all these have in common? They sacrifice quality in
search of popularity, and the almighty dollar.
What you choose to do with your money is your concern.
Remember, being part of a huge group makes you a very small member
of that group. As Mark Twain said, "I was born in the town of Florida
Missouri, which had a population of one hundred people, and thus I
increased that population by a full percentage point. I'm sure I
could have done the same for New York or London, but I felt it was
important to be near my mother at such a trying time..."
That's okay, nobody expects you to get it. :)
>p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
You're right, of course, roleplaying isn't for everyone, nor should it
be. Then again, strutting around as a 4,293rd level Gonzo Warrior is
pretty damned boring to a lot of us.
And keep this in mind. Not only does Harshlands have permadeath, it
also has full PK. If you want an adrenaline rush, try that sometime.
Your character gets one chance. If you die, you die, forever and
always. Try that, Medievia.
Mark
and many others have yet to learn. As for med and baywatch they are both big, bouncy and
look good in a tight swimsuit and I would play with them both all day long !
p.s. real or silicon makes no difference to me
The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who
walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
--Aln Ashley Pitt via VRYCE
M. Whittington
<flamesom...@flamesomeoneelse.com> wrote:
>You fail to realize that quantity and quality are not unreachable; Vryce realized this you
>and many others have yet to learn. As for med and baywatch they are both big, bouncy and
>look good in a tight swimsuit and I would play with them both all day long !
>
>p.s. real or silicon makes no difference to me
>
>The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who
>walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
>--Aln Ashley Pitt via VRYCE
And by playing a game with that many people, you are most certainly
following the crowd. As I can see you have no clue what I'm saying,
I may as well stop saying it. And I'm still waiting for that "review"
of my MUD, where you guys laugh yourselves silly over it.
C'mon, you can do it.
Jared Leisner
> p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
It only gets old fast for poor RPers. Don't worry, it's
an ability not everyone has. Nothing to be ashamed of.
By the way, MUSH/Xers (those would be RPers
who don't just go on mad hack-n-slash killing sprees),
on average, have the highest disdain for MUDders.
If you ask the not-so-nice ones, they'll probably say
that it has to do with pure hack-n-slash not requiring
more brain power than an iguanas. But, of course,
those are the not-so-nice ones.
-Jared Leisner
A MUSHer who finds MUDs get old faster
Ghost
go med go
Mark wrote:
> You fail to realize that quantity and quality are not unreachable; Vryce realized this you
> and many others have yet to learn. As for med and baywatch they are both big, bouncy and
> look good in a tight swimsuit and I would play with them both all day long !
>
> p.s. real or silicon makes no difference to me
>
> The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who
> walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
> --Aln Ashley Pitt via VRYCE
>
> "M. Whittington" wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:37:51 -0400, Mark
> > <flamesom...@flamesomeoneelse.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I guess you do not understand the definition of donation. I play med and I freely
> > >give my money in support of V. Moreover give up the license argument it does not
> > >wash. If med is so bad as you and other detractors claim ... why do 500-600 people a
> > >night play it? Most mudders have played many muds and yet choose med as their home.
> >
> > Well, it still breaks the license. You should read it sometime.
> >
> > As to why 500 to 600 people a night play it, do you know that Baywatch
> > was, during its hayday, the most popular television show on the
> > planet? McDonald's is very popular. Commercial TV is popular.
> > And what do all these have in common? They sacrifice quality in
> > search of popularity, and the almighty dollar.
> >
> > What you choose to do with your money is your concern.
> >
> > Remember, being part of a huge group makes you a very small member
> > of that group. As Mark Twain said, "I was born in the town of Florida
> > Missouri, which had a population of one hundred people, and thus I
> > increased that population by a full percentage point. I'm sure I
> > could have done the same for New York or London, but I felt it was
> > important to be near my mother at such a trying time..."
> >
> > That's okay, nobody expects you to get it. :)
> >
> > >p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
> >
Ghost
you have to offer? Give me a list of why your mud is so good?
"M. Whittington" wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:53:55 -0400, Mark
> <flamesom...@flamesomeoneelse.com> wrote:
>
> >You fail to realize that quantity and quality are not unreachable; Vryce realized this you
> >and many others have yet to learn. As for med and baywatch they are both big, bouncy and
> >look good in a tight swimsuit and I would play with them both all day long !
> >
> >p.s. real or silicon makes no difference to me
> >
> >The man who follows the crowd will usually get no further than the crowd. The man who
> >walks alone is likely to find himself in places no one has ever been."
> >--Aln Ashley Pitt via VRYCE
>
M. Whittington
>Dood why would we want to waste our time on your crappy mud when we can be medding? what do
>you have to offer? Give me a list of why your mud is so good?
No, you're absolutely right, for people with no taste, no sense of
the epic tale, no insight into the human experience, I'm sure that
"Med" is the place to be.
Now, take your meds and drool on your keyboard.
*wave*
AxL
>I guess you do not understand the definition of donation. I play med
>and I freely
>give my money in support of V. Moreover give up the license argument it
>does not
>wash. If med is so bad as you and other detractors claim ... why do
>500-600 people a
>night play it? Most mudders have played many muds and yet choose med as
>their home.
Hurry up and jump off the cliff, lemming. Your dirtbag brethren
await you.
Adam Casbarian
mean that in a good way ), you've got people from the mainstream roaming
the internet now and they need a place to play too. If Medievia wants
to fill that shoe, so be it. I personally like playing on muds that have
more than 20 people on at any given time, whether roleplay or otherwise.
Feel free to rip on them for their code efforts. I don't see how insulting
them for liking what lots of people like is going to prove you to be right,
however. If you meant those descriptive words for "conformist" in a good
way, then I apologize for misunderstanding.
- Adam
Jon A. Lambert
news:3966AE...@avatar.walrus.com...
> While muds tended to be isolated little geek hideaways 10 years ago ( and I
> mean that in a good way ), you've got people from the mainstream roaming
> the internet now and they need a place to play too. If Medievia wants
> to fill that shoe, so be it. I personally like playing on muds that have
> more than 20 people on at any given time, whether roleplay or otherwise.
>
There are dozens of muds that have over a hundred players on them.
> Feel free to rip on them for their code efforts. I don't see how insulting
> them for liking what lots of people like is going to prove you to be right,
> however. If you meant those descriptive words for "conformist" in a good
> way, then I apologize for misunderstanding.
What separates those dozens of muds from Medthievia is that they follow
their software licenses. They aren't run by code thieves. Some of us
have principles, prefer not to share the company of thieves, and find honest
entertainment elsewhere.
--
J. Lambert
Adam Casbarian
>
More like 1 or 2 dozen, not dozens. But that's just splitting hairs.
> What separates those dozens of muds from Medthievia is that they follow
> their software licenses. They aren't run by code thieves. Some of us
> have principles, prefer not to share the company of thieves, and find honest
> entertainment elsewhere.
Like I said, feel free to rip on their code ethics. The playerbase is probably
filled with people who do not read a newsgroup so preaching to us about how
stupid they are seems pointless. You seem to be missing a couple principles
but feel free to root out all the muds who are breaking the copyrights out
there and report them to whoever. I know there are more than dozens of those
out there.
- Adam
snafulife
/snip
>Like I said, feel free to rip on their code ethics. The
>playerbase is probably filled with people who do not read a
>newsgroup so preaching to us about how stupid they are seems
>principles but feel free to root out all the muds who are
>breaking the copyrights out there and report them to whoever. I
>know there are more than dozens of those out there.
Having read almost every post Jon Lambert has made to the
rec.games.mud* and alt.mud* newsgroups, as well as conversations
on a few different non-mud related things via e-mail. I would
like to know which principles you are refering to, as I haven't
found any to be out of place.
//
Snafu Life.
"Member: Shoddy-Hack Artists for Life."
"I tremble for my country when I reflect God is just."
--Thomas Jefferson
Adam Casbarian
> rec.games.mud* and alt.mud* newsgroups, as well as conversations
> on a few different non-mud related things via e-mail. I would
> like to know which principles you are refering to, as I haven't
> found any to be out of place.
Since I consider principles to be morals and ethical standards
and not just obeying the law, I would consider flaming people who
are just trying to play a game to be a lack of at least a few manners.
The comment wasn't directed towards John Lambert in particular, but he
is one of several I've seen argue their point in this fashion and it
hasn't swayed me to take their side. Instead, I find myself defending
people so that they don't have to be called lemmings, sheep, or whatever
else. I felt insulted simply because I didn't agree with them that the
player must be a complete moron to play on a mud that breaks a copyright
law that Medievia probably isn't advertising.("Hey, come to our mud! We've
broken 5 copyright laws and going strong!")
Medievia claims code that isn't theirs to claim. Cool. I didn't know that
and I appreciate the information. I've never played Medievia but I
probably won't now, unless I'm curious as to what draws them to do so.
(I know it isn't stock code that must be drawing people in whether or
not they claim it as their own.)
Let's move on to a new topic, unless this has become one.
- Adam
KaVir
>> Having read almost every post Jon Lambert has made to the
>> rec.games.mud* and alt.mud* newsgroups, as well as
>> conversations on a few different non-mud related things via e-
>> mail. I would like to know which principles you are refering
>> to, as I haven't found any to be out of place.
>
>Since I consider principles to be morals and ethical standards
>and not just obeying the law, I would consider flaming people
>who are just trying to play a game to be a lack of at least a
>few manners.
Supposing Vryce had robbed a bank and offered to give various
people a share of the money - would you consider it immoral and
unethical to flame those people for accepting the money when
they knew it was stolen?
Supposing Vryce had stolen a car and offered to let various
people some along for a joy ride - would you consider it immoral
and unethical to flame those people for accepting the ride when
they knew the car was stolen?
Because of people like Vryce, many of those who would have
released their code will not. It's not just the fact that he's
accepting money, but also that he refuses to give credit for the
Diku team's work. Why should people bother releasing code to
the mudding community when someone else will claim credit for
that work?
Because of him, everyone suffers. Perhaps you don't care, but I
do, John does, and many others do as well.
KaVir.
KaVir
>lol .. these doodz are funny eh ... like gimmie a break ... no
>mud compares to MED. go med go
Would you like fries with that Big Mac?
AxL
>KaVir <richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>And Vryce never admits to using Diku code.
>
>Not quite true anymore. http://www.medievia.com/start.html
>
>He's claiming that since he added a lot of stuff, the license doesn't
>apply to him anymore. Hmm.
Heh, that is the most pathetic piece of propaganda I have ever
seen. I and others have seen his weak code. The phrases;
"extensively rewritten"
"cutting edge"
"its own genre"
make any sane person either laugh derisively or projectile vomit.
What Soleil (Vryce's mud-ho of the month) really means is;
"somewhat rewritten, and what is rewritten is piss-poor"
"has the edge of a dull citrus spoon"
"a DikuMUD derivitave"
AxL
Adam Casbarian <out...@avatar.walrus.com> wrote:
>> Having read almost every post Jon Lambert has made to the
>> rec.games.mud* and alt.mud* newsgroups, as well as conversations
>> like to know which principles you are refering to, as I haven't
>> found any to be out of place.
>
>Since I consider principles to be morals and ethical standards
>and not just obeying the law, I would consider flaming people who
>are just trying to play a game to be a lack of at least a few manners.
Hmm. Well as far as I can recall, most of my efforts in this
long-standing debate have been against Either Vryce himself or
people/immortals posting on his behalf. True, I did call someone a
"sheep" recently in this forum. The exceptional morons that come here
with "come mud with me here, lotsa ppl, it k00l!" posts will get flamed
regardless of which mud they are supporting.
>The comment wasn't directed towards John Lambert in particular, but he
>is one of several I've seen argue their point in this fashion and it
>hasn't swayed me to take their side. Instead, I find myself defending
>people so that they don't have to be called lemmings, sheep, or whatever
>else. I felt insulted simply because I didn't agree with them that the
>player must be a complete moron to play on a mud that breaks a copyright
>law that Medievia probably isn't advertising.("Hey, come to our mud! We've
>broken 5 copyright laws and going strong!")
Of course not. McDonalds doesn't advertise that the chickens
used in their McNuggets are breeded in cages the size of the average
desk drawer, do they? People that protest such things generally do not
attack the consumers directly; they attack the source of the problem,
and seek to educate the consumer on why it is bad to continue using that
product. Unfortunately, the line does get blurred at times, hence the
sheep and lemming remarks.
>Medievia claims code that isn't theirs to claim. Cool. I didn't know that
>and I appreciate the information. I've never played Medievia but I
>probably won't now, unless I'm curious as to what draws them to do so.
>(I know it isn't stock code that must be drawing people in whether or
> not they claim it as their own.)
After all the rhetoric and propaganda from both sides is peeled
away, this is the essence of what I want to accomplish. Knowledge is
power, as they say. From time to time I myself login to Medievia to
talk to people there. Not to rant and rave "Vryce is an ass, don't play
this mud, he's a code thief!", but to inform them of what's really going
on, point them to other sources of information like dikumud.com and
mudconnector.com. Some just shrug and go about their gaming, while
others leave and find another mud, which I heartily encourage. (And no,
I've never steered anyone towards my mud...I'm not in this for
advertising.)
>Let's move on to a new topic, unless this has become one.
Ya never know.
Matt Knecht
>
> Heh, that is the most pathetic piece of propaganda I have ever
>seen. I and others have seen his weak code. The phrases;
>
>"extensively rewritten"
>"cutting edge"
>"its own genre"
>
>make any sane person either laugh derisively or projectile vomit.
>
> What Soleil (Vryce's mud-ho of the month) really means is;
>
>"somewhat rewritten, and what is rewritten is piss-poor"
>"has the edge of a dull citrus spoon"
>"a DikuMUD derivitave"
I'm not going to quibble about the quality, or lack of quality, of
Vryce's code. I know I've written some pretty horrible code when I
didn't know any better...
What I'm more interested in is Vryce's claim. Suppose he *HAS*
rewritten every single line of code. Every one of them. Does the Diku
license still bind him? I would think it does, but I'm not all that
good at deciphering licenses.
--
Matt Knecht -- exile.linex.com:4000
Jerry Gilyeat
It still holds.
It doesn't matter that he's rewritten every line (and poorly at that after
look at the MedIV source code).
It doesn't matter that he -claims- to have rewritten every line.
Derivative works are derivative works, -period-, and can in no way be
considered original works under copyright law in the US. Now, he -can-
claim copyright on his changes, and any original work contained in the
derivative work, however he is -still- bound by the terms of the original
copyright.
One thing about copyright: it doesn't have to be defended in order for it
to still be in force. Trademarks must be defended, not copyrights.
So Vryce, if you're reading this: you -are- in violation of the license
unless you rewrote, from -scratch- and without looking at existing code
(cleanroom implementation) Med, it's a derivative work, and your poor
method of excusing yourself won't count for beans if the DIKU folks ever
DO decide to sue you.
KaVir
You mean it *would* still hold, if he *had* rewritten every line.
I've looked through the code too, and a fair amount of it is
still quite obviously stock (one of the comments even has the
name "Furey" under it).
>It doesn't matter that he -claims- to have rewritten every line.
Agreed. Even if his claims were true - which they are not - it
wouldn't matter.
>Derivative works are derivative works, -period-, and can in no
>way be considered original works under copyright law in the
>US. Now, he -can- claim copyright on his changes, and any
>original work contained in the derivative work,
Actually, you can't copyright something somebody else did
without their permission, or derive your work from their work.
In terms of the Diku code, I believe this would mean that the
Medievia code cannot be copyrighted - by breaking the license,
Vryce has given up his right to make a derivative work.
[snip rest]
Derek
1. Vryce is in violation of the DIKU license.
2. That indeed a derived code is still under the license and he cannot
copyright what is derived.
3. Next, in the opinion of a few people here who are I assume C code
experts and produce the most efficient and effective code, his
additions are crap.
Then one must wonder why Medieiva, (Medthievia I think is the cute term
used in this newsgroup), is so popular? Is Vryce giving the people what
they want? And I am in no way equating quantity with quality as others
claim is impossible or possible.
I have tried this mud and it has a large devoted following of players.
Is Vryce in fact a master of marketing then? And why do so many players
frequent his mud?
Nobody has raised these issues. Many of the detractors here probably
follow their licences but to this point have not reached the level of
success of med. Is the licence to blame then? Must a American
capatalistic attitude be adoped in order to become successful? You may
have differing definitions of what success is however having 500 happy
mudders on a night willing to fork over $250 in donations is my idea of
success. Numbers of players, "revenue generation" to which breaks the
licence agreement to my understanding, or happiness are some indicators
of success. No time have I ever heard 500-600 players say "I play this
mud cause it has real efficient C code".
Cheers
unbiased observer
KaVir wrote:
> Vryce The God of all Muds <g...@god.com> wrote:
> >K enough of this ... just admit that you are jealous of med.
> >You all wish you had my mud but you don't so ha !
>
> Actually I DO have a copy of Medievia IV, although it's so
> bloated I can't even run it on my little computer. Not that
> it really bothers me, as I'm only interested in laughing at
> the code.
>
KaVir
>OK so we have concluded that:
>1. Vryce is in violation of the DIKU license.
Correct.
>2. That indeed a derived code is still under the license and he
>cannot copyright what is derived.
No, he CAN copyright a derived work - but ONLY if he follows the
licenses of the muds he has derived from.
>3. Next, in the opinion of a few people here who are I assume
>C code experts and produce the most efficient and effective
>code, his additions are crap.
I have never claimed to be a C code expert, and I know that some
of the code I've produced in the past is badly written - however
I don't go around claiming to be a "master programmer", nor do I
claim that my code represents "the cutting edge in gaming
technology and game design philosophy".
>Then one must wonder why Medieiva, (Medthievia I think is the
>cute term used in this newsgroup), is so popular?
A big part of it is the duration that the mud has been around,
although I'm sure the advertising helps (even these flames often
help Med, unfortunately, because many of todays young players
simply don't care if they're playing a mud that violates the
appropriate licenses). I heard that Med even had an advert in
some gaming magazine - and I know that Soril (sp?) was trolling
the EverQuest newsgroups for players as well.
AxL
>Then one must wonder why Medieiva, (Medthievia I think is the cute term
>they want? And I am in no way equating quantity with quality as others
>claim is impossible or possible.
>
place the highest value on winning the case, while others are most
interested in how much money they will get.
>I have tried this mud and it has a large devoted following of players.
>Is Vryce in fact a master of marketing then? And why do so many players
>frequent his mud?
Perhaps he is. No one disagrees that the mud is popular, if
popularity is measured numerically. Snake oil salesmen at the turn of
the century were pretty slick martketers too, and their product was
faked. (Parallels, anyone?)
>Nobody has raised these issues. Many of the detractors here probably
>follow their licences but to this point have not reached the level of
>success of med. Is the licence to blame then? Must a American
>capatalistic attitude be adoped in order to become successful? You may
>have differing definitions of what success is however having 500 happy
>mudders on a night willing to fork over $250 in donations is my idea of
>success. Numbers of players, "revenue generation" to which breaks the
>licence agreement to my understanding, or happiness are some indicators
>of success. No time have I ever heard 500-600 players say "I play this
>mud cause it has real efficient C code".
Again, no one has argued the fact that Med is quite populated,
and that the majority of the players there don't give the code
underneath their virtual feet a second thought. _We_ know the truth,
and we will always be continuously disgusted by someone that schlepped
their way to the top (top in quantity only), while claiming someone
else's work as his own.
M. Whittington
>OK so we have concluded that:
[conclusions snipped, you've read them]
I can't speak for anyone else, but for my part all I'm saying is
that I wouldn't sell my soul for a few bucks and a couple hundred
players. Most of us, I think, operate our MUDs for the love of
doing it, for the artistry involved, for the distraction of like-
minded people, or for the joy of coding/building/running the game.
It just sucks to see a thief turn the passtime into a brothel.
shrug
Stuart
assuming this because it looks familiar when you login and play?
There is a big difference, and all this bleeting and moaning over code
violations might be totally unfounded...
Derek wrote:
> OK so we have concluded that:
> 1. Vryce is in violation of the DIKU license.
> 2. That indeed a derived code is still under the license and he cannot
> copyright what is derived.
> 3. Next, in the opinion of a few people here who are I assume C code
> experts and produce the most efficient and effective code, his
> additions are crap.
>
> Then one must wonder why Medieiva, (Medthievia I think is the cute term
> used in this newsgroup), is so popular? Is Vryce giving the people what
> they want? And I am in no way equating quantity with quality as others
> claim is impossible or possible.
> I have tried this mud and it has a large devoted following of players.
> Is Vryce in fact a master of marketing then? And why do so many players
> frequent his mud?
>
> Nobody has raised these issues. Many of the detractors here probably
> follow their licences but to this point have not reached the level of
> success of med. Is the licence to blame then? Must a American
> capatalistic attitude be adoped in order to become successful? You may
> have differing definitions of what success is however having 500 happy
> mudders on a night willing to fork over $250 in donations is my idea of
> success. Numbers of players, "revenue generation" to which breaks the
> licence agreement to my understanding, or happiness are some indicators
> of success. No time have I ever heard 500-600 players say "I play this
> mud cause it has real efficient C code".
>
> Cheers
> unbiased observer
>
> KaVir wrote:
>
> > Vryce The God of all Muds <g...@god.com> wrote:
> > >K enough of this ... just admit that you are jealous of med.
> > >You all wish you had my mud but you don't so ha !
> >
> > Actually I DO have a copy of Medievia IV, although it's so
> > bloated I can't even run it on my little computer. Not that
> > it really bothers me, as I'm only interested in laughing at
> > the code.
> >
KaVir
>Derek wrote:
>
[snip]
>> KaVir wrote:
>>
>> > Vryce The God of all Muds <g...@god.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> > Actually I DO have a copy of Medievia IV, although it's so
>> > bloated I can't even run it on my little computer.
[snip]
>Has anyone actually proved they have used DIKU code?
Please read the threads before posting.
AxL
>Has anyone actually proved they have used DIKU code? or are they just
>assuming this because it looks familiar when you login and play?
>There is a big difference, and all this bleeting and moaning over code
>violations might be totally unfounded...
(Familiarize yourself with http://www.dikumud.com/diku/Children/index.asp)
Medievia is a derivitave of Merc1, which is a derivitave of
DikuMUD, plain and simple. One fateful day in 1992, people attempting
to connect to AdversaryMUD (one of the best, back in the day) instead
found themselves at this crappy little Merc Mud named Medievia. Most,
or all, of us here have seen this mud back wehn it did display the
proper screens, credits, etc... Vryce was still an ass back then (heh,
and giving god chars in exchange for mudsex, but I guess he's grown out
of that, finally)....so, he's always been an ass, but its only within
the last 3-4 years that this "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
melp...@cruzio.com
>Stuart <not...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>Has anyone actually proved they have used DIKU code? or are they just
>>assuming this because it looks familiar when you login and play?
>>There is a big difference, and all this bleeting and moaning over code
>>violations might be totally unfounded...
>
>(Familiarize yourself with http://www.dikumud.com/diku/Children/index.asp)
>
> Medievia is a derivitave of Merc1, which is a derivitave of
>DikuMUD, plain and simple. One fateful day in 1992, people attempting
>to connect to AdversaryMUD (one of the best, back in the day) instead
>found themselves at this crappy little Merc Mud named Medievia. Most,
>or all, of us here have seen this mud back wehn it did display the
>proper screens, credits, etc... Vryce was still an ass back then (heh,
>and giving god chars in exchange for mudsex, but I guess he's grown out
>of that, finally)....so, he's always been an ass, but its only within
>the last 3-4 years that this "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
no longer derivative of Merc1?
Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface? Did Microsoft rip off
Apple for their interface for Windows?
I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
(by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
argument and wearing quite thin.
Given the arguments I've seen and the insults generated toward people
who like Medievia (that popularity means it is base entertainment), I
suspect that those who post to this newsgroup insulting Medievia are
on some sort of crusade. That, or they're perhaps envious of the
player numbers Medievia gets.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
AxL
>On 17 Jul 2000 08:28:09 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>>(Familiarize yourself with http://www.dikumud.com/diku/Children/index.asp)
>>
>> Medievia is a derivitave of Merc1, which is a derivitave of
>>DikuMUD, plain and simple. One fateful day in 1992, people attempting
>>to connect to AdversaryMUD (one of the best, back in the day) instead
>>found themselves at this crappy little Merc Mud named Medievia. Most,
>>or all, of us here have seen this mud back wehn it did display the
>>proper screens, credits, etc... Vryce was still an ass back then (heh,
>>and giving god chars in exchange for mudsex, but I guess he's grown out
>>of that, finally)....so, he's always been an ass, but its only within
>>the last 3-4 years that this "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
>
>If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
>no longer derivative of Merc1?
If rewritten a) 100% from scratch, and b) without using a single
line of DikuMUD code, not looking at it for a reference, etc... then
yes, it'd be an original work, and not derivitave. Since both a) and b)
are false, it is a derivitave work.
>Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
I don't believe TSR thinks so. Years ago, they went in a flurry
to get popular FTP sites shut down that contained TSR pics, artwork, char
sheets, etc... and also some muds that were Forgotten Realms-based. They
didn't have a problem with all trhe muds that use "Armor", "Druids", "magic
missile", and all that.
>Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
No, they purchased the rights to it from Xerox.
> Did Microsoft rip off
>Apple for their interface for Windows?
Perhaps, but the courts ruled in Microsoft's favour, so it is a
moot point.
>I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
>(by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
>like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
>reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
>argument and wearing quite thin.
The words "shit" and "tough" come to mind. Feel free to
rearrange the order, if you like.
>Given the arguments I've seen and the insults generated toward people
>who like Medievia (that popularity means it is base entertainment), I
>suspect that those who post to this newsgroup insulting Medievia are
>on some sort of crusade.
Your point is...? TheTruth (http://www.thetruth.com) is on a
crusade. PETA (http://www.peta.org) is on a crusade. SIIA
(http://www.siia.net) is on a crusade.
People like you are quite content to sit on the curb, and watch
others pass by. Others speak up when they see that something is wrong.
>That, or they're perhaps envious of the
>player numbers Medievia gets.
Here's another well-trod line: Quantity != Quality.
melp...@cruzio.com
>In article <397330b5...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>On 17 Jul 2000 08:28:09 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>>>(Familiarize yourself with http://www.dikumud.com/diku/Children/index.asp)
>>>
>>> Medievia is a derivitave of Merc1, which is a derivitave of
>>>DikuMUD, plain and simple. One fateful day in 1992, people attempting
>>>to connect to AdversaryMUD (one of the best, back in the day) instead
>>>found themselves at this crappy little Merc Mud named Medievia. Most,
>>>or all, of us here have seen this mud back wehn it did display the
>>>proper screens, credits, etc... Vryce was still an ass back then (heh,
>>>and giving god chars in exchange for mudsex, but I guess he's grown out
>>>of that, finally)....so, he's always been an ass, but its only within
>>>the last 3-4 years that this "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
>>
>>If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
>>no longer derivative of Merc1?
>
> If rewritten a) 100% from scratch, and b) without using a single
>line of DikuMUD code, not looking at it for a reference, etc... then
>yes, it'd be an original work, and not derivitave. Since both a) and b)
>are false, it is a derivitave work.
Let me see if I understand. If code is not 100% from scratch, without
using a single line of anything else, without looking at something
else for a reference, then it's not original work, and is a ripoff of
something else.
This argument won't fly in the real world. Most code is derivative of
something else. If people have to keep reinventing the wheel, we sure
wouldn't have come very far, now, would we?
>>Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
>
> I don't believe TSR thinks so. Years ago, they went in a flurry
>to get popular FTP sites shut down that contained TSR pics, artwork, char
>sheets, etc... and also some muds that were Forgotten Realms-based. They
>didn't have a problem with all trhe muds that use "Armor", "Druids", "magic
>missile", and all that.
So is your criteria whether the authors feel ripped off or not? If
so, do the DIKU authors feel ripped off by Medievia?
>>Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
>
> No, they purchased the rights to it from Xerox.
They did? That's news to me. I thought Jobs stole the idea when he
visited PARC (excuse me, he was "inspired") - or was it SRI then?
While we're at it, wasn't hypertext invented at SRI too (if not SRI,
it certainly was present in Tymshare's Augment)? So the web is a
ripoff of either SRI or Tymshare by your logic.
>> Did Microsoft rip off
>>Apple for their interface for Windows?
>
> Perhaps, but the courts ruled in Microsoft's favour, so it is a
>moot point.
If your criteria is what the courts rule upon, then it's hardly
conclusive, since there has been no court action. Of course, the DIKU
authors would have to sue. Have they?
Another point I'd like to bring up is that DIKU is a derivative work
itself - it comes from ABER, and ultimately comes from Adventure. In
fact, all text muds could be said to come from Adventure.
>>I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
>>(by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
>>like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
>>reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
>>argument and wearing quite thin.
>
> The words "shit" and "tough" come to mind. Feel free to
>rearrange the order, if you like.
Boy, I guess you told me. I'm out of my league with arguments like
that.
>>Given the arguments I've seen and the insults generated toward people
>>who like Medievia (that popularity means it is base entertainment), I
>>suspect that those who post to this newsgroup insulting Medievia are
>>on some sort of crusade.
>
> Your point is...? TheTruth (http://www.thetruth.com) is on a
>crusade. PETA (http://www.peta.org) is on a crusade. SIIA
>(http://www.siia.net) is on a crusade.
>
> People like you are quite content to sit on the curb, and watch
>others pass by. Others speak up when they see that something is wrong.
Au contraire. You have failed to convince me that anything is wrong.
Why don't you try - this time, use logic and reason. They go further
than petty insults (which you're not even very good at - you could at
least attempt to be amusing).
>>That, or they're perhaps envious of the
>>player numbers Medievia gets.
>
> Here's another well-trod line: Quantity != Quality.
Again, the argument wears thin.
You seem to believe that because a lot of people enjoy a thing, that
means that thing is crap. That's a pretty elitist attitude, but
you're welcome to it. It's an attitude snotty young college kids
often have, but most people lose it by the time they hit their late
twenties (at least the ones who grow up).
Try judging things on their own merits - you might find the masses
aren't alway wrong.
Seriously, please answer this: what do you care if other people like
something you don't like? Does it invalidate you in some way?
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
AxL
>On 17 Jul 2000 14:04:43 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>> If rewritten a) 100% from scratch, and b) without using a single
>>line of DikuMUD code, not looking at it for a reference, etc... then
>>yes, it'd be an original work, and not derivitave. Since both a) and b)
>>are false, it is a derivitave work.
>
>something else. If people have to keep reinventing the wheel, we sure
>wouldn't have come very far, now, would we?
Don't be retarded. ID Software started the whole 3D shooter
genre with Wolfenstein. Did that mean that every 3D shooter since is
derivitave of it? No. Others wrote their own 3D engines, they didn't
download a copy of Wolfenstein and hack away. Diku code was released
for the public to use _with restrictions_. If someone can't abide by
those restrictions, then they shouldn't make use of the code, now should
they?
>>>Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
>>
>> I don't believe TSR thinks so. Years ago, they went in a flurry
>>to get popular FTP sites shut down that contained TSR pics, artwork, char
>>sheets, etc... and also some muds that were Forgotten Realms-based. They
>>didn't have a problem with all trhe muds that use "Armor", "Druids", "magic
>>missile", and all that.
>
>So is your criteria whether the authors feel ripped off or not?
The criteria is the _intent_ of the authors, and under what
circumstances their work is released.
> If so, do the DIKU authors feel ripped off by Medievia?
Yes, and they have said as much in this forum in the past. I'll
forgive you for not knowing that, being a newbie and all...
>>>Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
>>
>> No, they purchased the rights to it from Xerox.
>
>They did? That's news to me. I thought Jobs stole the idea when he
>visited PARC (excuse me, he was "inspired") - or was it SRI then?
Guess you need some history lessons.
>While we're at it, wasn't hypertext invented at SRI too (if not SRI,
>it certainly was present in Tymshare's Augment)? So the web is a
>ripoff of either SRI or Tymshare by your logic.
Apples and oranges, buddy. The difference is the intent of the
original authors of the work. In the case here, the Diku authors wanted
those who use their work to agree to adhere to the license. Michael
Krause did not, and therein lies the conflict.
>>> Did Microsoft rip off
>>>Apple for their interface for Windows?
>>
>> Perhaps, but the courts ruled in Microsoft's favour, so it is a
>>moot point.
>
>If your criteria is what the courts rule upon, then it's hardly
>conclusive, since there has been no court action.
I did not say it was crtieria for anything. Just providing
answers to your off-topic questions.
>Another point I'd like to bring up is that DIKU is a derivative work
>itself - it comes from ABER, and ultimately comes from Adventure. In
>fact, all text muds could be said to come from Adventure.
Point...? Aber mud was released with a "If it doesn't do what
you, feel free to play with the code!" type of message, and that was
that. Everyone knows that they started playing Abers, and decided to do
their own. Sure, its a derivitave, but they followed all agreements and
licenses that came with the Aber source.
>> Your point is...? TheTruth (http://www.thetruth.com) is on a
>>crusade. PETA (http://www.peta.org) is on a crusade. SIIA
>>(http://www.siia.net) is on a crusade.
>>
>> People like you are quite content to sit on the curb, and watch
>>others pass by. Others speak up when they see that something is wrong.
>
>Au contraire. You have failed to convince me that anything is wrong.
>Why don't you try - this time, use logic and reason. They go further
>than petty insults (which you're not even very good at - you could at
>least attempt to be amusing).
Heh, I don't need to prove jack to you, newbie. I've had this
conversation several times with people of varying stature over the
years, you aren't at all special. www.deja.com will give you some good
background info.
>> Here's another well-trod line: Quantity != Quality.
>
>Again, the argument wears thin.
Only to those without the capacity to comprehend it.
>You seem to believe that because a lot of people enjoy a thing, that
>means that thing is crap. That's a pretty elitist attitude, but
>you're welcome to it. It's an attitude snotty young college kids
>often have, but most people lose it by the time they hit their late
>twenties (at least the ones who grow up).
I'm not attacking the people that play, and I said as much in
this exact same thread. Vryce and the ppl that are responsible for the
mud are the target. Btw, I graduated years ago. Not everyone from an
.edu site is a student. Any more stereotypes I can burst for you?
>Try judging things on their own merits - you might find the masses
>aren't alway wrong.
Medievia has no merits.
>Seriously, please answer this: what do you care if other people like
>something you don't like? Does it invalidate you in some way?
Again, why do groups like PETA care if people eat hamburgers?
Because they believe it is wrong.
AxL
Stuart <not...@invalid.com> wrote:
>Well said!, I've never heard so much whining over a mud base before, I guess
>something personal happened between these people, because any normal
>person would
>move on and not devote their life to obsessing over a mud..
[...]
Spoken like a true dumbass. Move along, child, move along.
Stuart
something personal happened between these people, because any normal person would
move on and not devote their life to obsessing over a mud..
and as they say any publicity is good publicity so all this crying over medieva is
just promoting them more :P, because even as they admit the average person doesn't
care!, so they are actually helping medievia.
Who knows maybe medievia have stripped out DIKU code. We don't know.
They are just assuming that its stayed the same, and as you said its pretty much
impossible to not use a line of code thats shared with DIKU., unless you want to
reinvent the language C or use another language obviously you are going to be using
similar code.
DIKU borrowed plenty of ideas from other places, and you dont see a pack of people
complaining about that..
anyway my 2 cents
good post though melpremo
I dont have time to write out a nice note, just would like to see this thread go
away once and for all, it seems like a waste of space :)
rr...@lanminds.com
>
>I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
>(by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
>like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
>reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
>argument and wearing quite thin.
>
>Given the arguments I've seen and the insults generated toward people
>who like Medievia (that popularity means it is base entertainment), I
>suspect that those who post to this newsgroup insulting Medievia are
>on some sort of crusade. That, or they're perhaps envious of the
>player numbers Medievia gets.
>
>--Mel
>melp...@cruzio.com
>
The animosity comes from people who see, quite rightly, that stealing
code and charging to use it stops other people from releasing code for
general use. Plus, it just seems wrong to me to claim other people's
work as your own. A lot of other people worked on the code that
Medievia uses, and to not put them in the credits is a slap in their
faces. And then, there is the entire ethical/legal view. I have no
respect for people who read a license, understand what it says, but
decide that it just doesn't apply to them. And I have little respect
for people who continue to play a game run by those sort of people,
once they understand the situation.
Kira Skydancer
melp...@cruzio.com
>The animosity comes from people who see, quite rightly, that stealing
>code and charging to use it stops other people from releasing code for
>general use. Plus, it just seems wrong to me to claim other people's
>work as your own. A lot of other people worked on the code that
>Medievia uses, and to not put them in the credits is a slap in their
>faces. And then, there is the entire ethical/legal view. I have no
>respect for people who read a license, understand what it says, but
>decide that it just doesn't apply to them. And I have little respect
>for people who continue to play a game run by those sort of people,
>once they understand the situation.
Here's what it says when you type "credits" on Medievia:
-----------------
Medievia was designed compatible outwardly with the standard Diku
interface but Medievia is not a DIKU MUD inside or out.
DIKUMUD was originally developed by Katja Nyboe, Tom Madsen,
Hans Henrik Staerfeldt, Michael Seifert, and Sebastian Hammer.
A small bit of background of DIKUMud, according to
Sebastian Hammer:
"The game originated at the Department of Computer Science at
the University of Copenhagen (in Danish: Datalogisk Institutved
K|benhavns Universitet; or, amongst friends: DIKU) The foundations
of the code were laid out in March of 1990. Our background
(Mud-wise) was primarily Abermud (LpMud was just emerging at the
time), and our object was to make a better AberMud. We wanted to
make it fast, compact and CPU-efficient. We wanted to allow more
than the 18 (or so) players-at-a-time that AberMuds permitted in
thos days, and we wanted a bigger world, so that players could truly
get lost in there (back then, 500 room AberMuds seemed the norm).
Also, we wanted to make it more interesting for players to
cooperate, rather than just run madly around in search of beasts to
kill."
The whole MUD community, even non-DIKU types, have been affected by
that 1990 release of DIKU code. Since that time, with a fairly stable
base code to start with, MUDs have sprung up all over Internet. Even
though Medievia's code is different I doubt we would be here, if DIKU
did not make MUDs such a popular and easy to set up game. I would
like to thank the whole DIKU team for their insight and their passion
for the game.
Medievia has been coded and recoded, re-thought and recoded again by
Vryce over the years.
Our zones have been created by many many gods, many of which no longer
play the game.
Today Medievia is owned, run and coded by Vryce.
For a list of the current contributors of time and effort use the
wizlist command from within Medievia.
All email about Medievia should be directed to vr...@medievia.com
Long Live Medievia!
--------------------
[End of credits]
Now, it seems to me that credit is being given where credit is due.
If someone has a mud with a <whatever> base, and over time rewrites
the underlying code so that it no longer bears resemblance to
<whatever> base, then it seems to me that it clearly no longer is
<whatever> base.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
melp...@cruzio.com
part):
<insults snipped>
>Diku code was released
>for the public to use _with restrictions_. If someone can't abide by
>those restrictions, then they shouldn't make use of the code, now should
>they?
If someone uses DIKU code for mud version 1, changes to MERC for mud
version 2, and rewrites the code for mud version 3, then I fail to see
how that would be covered by any reasonable interpretation of the
license.
From what I've been able to ascertain, the original DIKU code was
buggy, leaky and unwieldy. I would imagine that none of it is in use
at Medievia today.
>> If so, do the DIKU authors feel ripped off by Medievia?
>
> Yes, and they have said as much in this forum in the past. I'll
>forgive you for not knowing that, being a newbie and all...
A newbie to this forum, perhaps.
The DIKU authors also accused Everquest of ripping them off too,
didn't they?
>>>>Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
>>>
>>> No, they purchased the rights to it from Xerox.
>>
>>They did? That's news to me. I thought Jobs stole the idea when he
>>visited PARC (excuse me, he was "inspired") - or was it SRI then?
>
> Guess you need some history lessons.
Please provide me with a reference for this. I've somehow missed
hearing about this before.
>>While we're at it, wasn't hypertext invented at SRI too (if not SRI,
>>it certainly was present in Tymshare's Augment)? So the web is a
>>ripoff of either SRI or Tymshare by your logic.
>
> Apples and oranges, buddy. The difference is the intent of the
>original authors of the work. In the case here, the Diku authors wanted
>those who use their work to agree to adhere to the license. Michael
>Krause did not, and therein lies the conflict.
From what I understand, he did. The DIKU authors can not say, "you
can use this for free, but we're entitled to claim that everything
that you write from now on is based upon our work" whether it's true
or not.
>>>> Did Microsoft rip off
>>>>Apple for their interface for Windows?
>>>
>>> Perhaps, but the courts ruled in Microsoft's favour, so it is a
>>>moot point.
>>
>>If your criteria is what the courts rule upon, then it's hardly
>>conclusive, since there has been no court action.
>
> I did not say it was crtieria for anything. Just providing
>answers to your off-topic questions.
Let me see if I understand. I asked whether Microsoft ripped off
Apple, you said perhaps, but the courts ruled so it's a moot point, I
responded, and now it becomes offtopic because you don't have an
answer?
>>Another point I'd like to bring up is that DIKU is a derivative work
>>itself - it comes from ABER, and ultimately comes from Adventure. In
>>fact, all text muds could be said to come from Adventure.
>
> Point...? Aber mud was released with a "If it doesn't do what
>you, feel free to play with the code!" type of message, and that was
>that. Everyone knows that they started playing Abers, and decided to do
>their own. Sure, its a derivitave, but they followed all agreements and
>licenses that came with the Aber source.
How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
and would sure like to.
> Heh, I don't need to prove jack to you, newbie. I've had this
>conversation several times with people of varying stature over the
>years, you aren't at all special. www.deja.com will give you some good
>background info.
What's with all this newbie crap? It ranks up there with spelling
flames.
Let me tell you what your insults do: they allow me (and others) to
dismiss everything you have to say because if you have something
interesting or enlightening to say, a reasonable person would assume
that you would say it. Since you instead resort to insults, a
reasonable person would assume you have nothing interesting or
enlightening to say.
> I'm not attacking the people that play, and I said as much in
>this exact same thread. Vryce and the ppl that are responsible for the
>mud are the target. Btw, I graduated years ago. Not everyone from an
>.edu site is a student. Any more stereotypes I can burst for you?
That's just not true. You have said insulting things in this very
thread about people who play Medievia.
Incidently, I wasn't assuming you were a college student, merely
pointing out that your attitude is one that seems popular among
college students.
>>Try judging things on their own merits - you might find the masses
>>aren't alway wrong.
>
> Medievia has no merits.
How is it that anyone can take what you say seriously when you are so
completely biased?
You know, I give up trying to even discuss this with you. It's quite
clear that you're not interested in anyone's opinion but your own, and
you're not interested in having either a debate or a discussion.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
AxL
>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
>and would sure like to.
Well, you're even more ignorant than I first thought.
http://qsilver.queensu.ca/~fletchra/Circle/diku-license.html
I'm done with you. These are the same arguments that I've had
with other twits in years past, and like I said, if you wanna catch up,
deja.com is your friend.
You are dismissed.
AxL
>Now, it seems to me that credit is being given where credit is due.
If you had bothered to read the license (which you stated that
you have not), you would know that it calls for the "credits" command as
well as a listing in the login sequence.
Ignorance is bliss, eh Mel?
>If someone has a mud with a <whatever> base, and over time rewrites
>the underlying code so that it no longer bears resemblance to
><whatever> base, then it seems to me that it clearly no longer is
><whatever> base.
Do a net search for the phrase "copyright myth". Report back to
us when you stumble upon a clue.
Z
Mel,
I think you are missing the point. We are from a time now long gone
by. A time when people on the net would freely help each other with code bits
and time. There was no profit motive, there was only a sense of kinship and
camaraderie in those of us that were charged with taming this wild land. It
was truely a noble time of the internet, a time before E-commerce. The glory
wasn't in dollars, it was in deeds and recognition. To deny someone this
recognition of effort givin freely was, and still is for those of us from
those days, a most henious sin. We don't take kindly to 'those' types.
- Z
melp...@cruzio.com wrote:
> is "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
>
> If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
> no longer derivative of Merc1?
>
> Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
>
> Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface? Did Microsoft rip off
> Apple for their interface for Windows?
>
Michael Morrison
> Well, you're even more ignorant than I first thought.
>
> http://qsilver.queensu.ca/~fletchra/Circle/diku-license.html
Wrong license, that's not what he was asking for.
---
>> Point...? Aber mud was released with a "If it doesn't do what
>>you, feel free to play with the code!" type of message, and that was
>>that. Everyone knows that they started playing Abers, and decided to do
>>their own. Sure, its a derivitave, but they followed all agreements and
>>licenses that came with the Aber source.
>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
>and would sure like to.
---
I believe he was asking for the Aber license.
> melpremo wrote:
> Let me tell you what your insults do: they allow me (and others) to
> dismiss everything you have to say because if you have something
> interesting or enlightening to say, a reasonable person would assume
> that you would say it. Since you instead resort to insults, a
> reasonable person would assume you have nothing interesting or
> enlightening to say.
You know, he's right. I had respect for you up until that post, sorry Axl.
I thought he had a good argument, much better than the others that have
posted in this thread. You both had good points, too bad this debate
had to end in such a childish way.
Feel free to flame me if it makes you feel better.
Nuutti Kotivuori
>>>>> Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
>>>>
>>>> No, they purchased the rights to it from Xerox.
>>>
>>> They did? That's news to me. I thought Jobs stole the idea when
>>> he visited PARC (excuse me, he was "inspired") - or was it SRI
>>> then?
>>
>> Guess you need some history lessons.
>
> hearing about this before.
Um. As far as I recall, Apple had negotiated rights to review any new
inventions that Xerox did. But that isn't really important here since
Xerox _did not_ patent or copyright the user interface:
It was one of the great fumbles of all time. In the 1970s,
Xerox Corps.'s Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) developed the
technologies that would drive the personal computer
revolution. "By 1979, we had it all - graphical user
interfaces, mice, windows and pull-down menus, laser printing,
distributed computing, and Ethernet," recalls M. Grank Squires,
a PARC founder in 1970 and now chief administrative officer of
SematechInc., the chip-industry consortium in Austin, Tex.
Xerox had the PC and networking businesses firmly hooked - but
didn't try to reel them in. It didn't even patent PARC's
innovations. Management was too preoccupied with aggressive
competition from Japan in its core copier business, says CEO
Paul A. Allaire. "If we'd been really good, we could have done
both. We probably should have," he admits.
Instead, PARC's technologies became the foundation for such
icons as Apple Computer Inc. and 3COM Corp. Apple co-founder
Steven P. Jobs visited PARC in 1979 and was astonished at what
he saw. His PARC tour inspired the Macintosh. That same year,
Ethernet inventor Robert M. Metcalfe left PARC to start 3Com
(he now owns Candlestick Park in San Francisco!). These are
just two famous examples of the great Xerox giveaway.
"Xerox won't duplicate past errors." Business Week, September
29, 1997
On the other hand, the DIKU coders _did_ copyright and put up a
license.
> Let me see if I understand. I asked whether Microsoft ripped off
> Apple, you said perhaps, but the courts ruled so it's a moot point, I
> responded, and now it becomes offtopic because you don't have an
> answer?
It's not my place to answer this directly ofcourse. I think the whole
argument is off topic - eg. did Microsoft rip off Apple. It bears no
relation to the problem at hand except remote similarity of occasions.
Many people feel that Microsoft ripped off Apple, regardless of the
court ruling, and are on a crusade to keep people informed about it.
The difference is that no court will rule on violating DIKU license
because there will be no trial. This isn't about companies fighting
each other, this is about a group of people who developed something
and their code was ripped off.
> What's with all this newbie crap? It ranks up there with spelling
> flames.
He advises you to go to deja and read a couple hundred articles about
this very same subject, so that you won't have to repeat old things
again and again but maybe could get something new to this discussion.
He says you are a newbie because you obviously doesn't have the
background information on the subject. Even just reading the license
would've given you some.
Umm and add "I think that" to the beginning of both those paragraphs,
since I really can't know.
But I'm not really into the subject and don't know much about it, so I
can't really argue about it. I know I won't be playing Medievia.
-- Naked
Jon A. Lambert
>
>If someone uses DIKU code for mud version 1, changes to MERC
>for mud version 2, and rewrites the code for mud version 3,
>then I fail to see how that would be covered by any reasonable
>interpretation of the license.
Well seeing that this supposed version 3 contained code from
Merc and Diku, it would be a DERIVED work. As such it inherits
the restrictions of Merc and Diku.
>From what I've been able to ascertain, the original DIKU code
>was buggy, leaky and unwieldy. I would imagine that none of it
>is in use at Medievia today.
Do the latest and greatest versions of Circle and Rom contain
DIKU code? Answer: YES
>From what I understand, he did. The DIKU authors can not
>say, "you can use this for free, but we're entitled to claim
>that everything that you write from now on is based upon our
>work" whether it's true or not.
That is not what they are saying.
That is what you are saying they are saying.
Midthievia's code is DERIVED from DIKU/MERC.
>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't
>seen it and would sure like to.
Diku isn't DERIVED from Aber. Inspired maybe but not derived.
So Aber's license is not relevant. Both codebases are
publically available. Determining whether it is derived or not
can be done by anyone.
--
J. Lambert
melp...@cruzio.com
>In article <3973e908...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
>>and would sure like to.
>
> Well, you're even more ignorant than I first thought.
I might be ignorant, but I'm not stupid.
>http://qsilver.queensu.ca/~fletchra/Circle/diku-license.html
Thank you for posting the URL.
I fail to see how this license agreement covers someone who is no
longer using the DikuMud code base.
> I'm done with you. These are the same arguments that I've had
>with other twits in years past, and like I said, if you wanna catch up,
>deja.com is your friend.
>
> You are dismissed.
Thank you. Be sure to add me to your killfile.
You've utterly failed to convince me that the owners of Medievia have
done anything untoward in regards to the DikuMud owners. Now, if they
feel wronged, they can certainly sue and let the courts decide.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
The Arrow
> Here's what it says when you type "credits" on Medievia:
>
> -----------------
> Medievia was designed compatible outwardly with the standard Diku
> interface but Medievia is not a DIKU MUD inside or out.
[Snip rest of credits]
Considering that many people in this newsgroup have or have seen the
source to Medievia, and that they claim that it is a stock Merc with some
(apparently bad) additions, how can then Medievia not be a Diku MUD?
/ The Arrow
======================================================================
The Arrow Email: ar...@trelleborg.mail.telia.com
Joachim Pileborg WWW : [Under construction]
======================================================================
AxL
[Here is a better follow-up on this thread. I realize I may have been
overly-dismissive beforehand.]
In article <3973e908...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>If someone uses DIKU code for mud version 1, changes to MERC for mud
>version 2, and rewrites the code for mud version 3, then I fail to see
>how that would be covered by any reasonable interpretation of the
>license.
The problem is that you really don't know what is going on.
That is why I used the (apt) term "newbie", because you have jumped into
along-standing debate witout knowing the facts. Again, do some damn
research before spouting half-truths.
History lesson time.
First there was Diku. Several people took Diku code, rewrote
portions, and re-released it to the public under the name of MERC. It
still contained and followed the original Diku license, and added its
own. MERC is a derivitave work of Diku. Some people chose to work off
the original Diku code, adding their own modifications. Others built
their mud off the MERC code, like Medievia. Some even took the MERC
code, retooled parts, and re-released a new derivitave (ROM, for
example), which then contained its own license, plus MERC's and Diku's.
In all of the above cases, the subsequent works are derivitave of
someone else's code. If that someone else licenses and/or restricts the
usage of their product, then it must be followed.
>From what I've been able to ascertain, the original DIKU code was
>buggy, leaky and unwieldy. I would imagine that none of it is in use
>at Medievia today.
It was quite buggy, yes. Meaning you had to have atleast
somewhat of a clue to get it running. Medievia did not deal with this
aspect at all. It started by downloading MERC, and building from there.
A stable, bug-free platform.
To this day, huge portions of Medievia's code is untouched frm
the MERC and Diku days. This isn't conjecture or speculation, this is
fact. Many people on the `net have gotten ahold of the Medievia source
code, and can verify that it is indeed still a MERC, which is still a
Diku.
>The DIKU authors also accused Everquest of ripping them off too,
>didn't they?
Yes, and after EverQuest allowed the Diku people to examine the
code, they determined that it was not. All explained on their website,
http://www.dikumud.com
>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
>and would sure like to.
I posted the URL for the DikuMUD license. I have never seen or
heard of a real AberMUD license, and since I don't believe the Diku team
took actual Aber code and rewrote it, it may not be applicable.
Conjecture on my part, as I really do not know.
>>this exact same thread. Vryce and the ppl that are responsible for the
>>mud are the target. Btw, I graduated years ago. Not everyone from an
>>.edu site is a student. Any more stereotypes I can burst for you?
>
>That's just not true. You have said insulting things in this very
>thread about people who play Medievia.
Yes, as I said before, I used the term "sheep" several times,
but later realized that it isn't the player's fault, it is the
administrators.
melp...@cruzio.com
>In article <3973e5db...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>Now, it seems to me that credit is being given where credit is due.
>
> If you had bothered to read the license (which you stated that
>you have not), you would know that it calls for the "credits" command as
>well as a listing in the login sequence.
>
> Ignorance is bliss, eh Mel?
I don't think that the owners of DikuMud are entitled to have their
names listed on any mud that a person writes in perpetuity simply
because that person at one time may have used DikuMud. That's just
silly.
The license agreement states that:
"Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain our
name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud. "
Medievia is certainly not a running version of DikuMud. Anyone who
thinks it is need only log in to a DikuMud, and then log in to
Medievia. That should clear up any doubts.
>>If someone has a mud with a <whatever> base, and over time rewrites
>>the underlying code so that it no longer bears resemblance to
>><whatever> base, then it seems to me that it clearly no longer is
>><whatever> base.
>
> Do a net search for the phrase "copyright myth". Report back to
>us when you stumble upon a clue.
If the world worked the way you seem to think it does, no one would
ever invent anything, because all work is derivative in some fashion.
You seem to be saying that, because at one time, Medievia was a Diku
mud, it shall be forever a Diku mud. If this is not what you are
saying, then please clarify.
Prove that Medievia is infringing upon DikuMud's copyright. If the
case is strong, as you claim, then DikuMud's authors ought to have no
trouble winning their case in court.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
brian moore
> Another point I'd like to bring up is that DIKU is a derivative work
> itself - it comes from ABER, and ultimately comes from Adventure. In
> fact, all text muds could be said to come from Adventure.
Bzzt. Wrong. It was inspired by Aber. It doesn't share any common
code with Aber and it never has.
--
Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor.
Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting
Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day.
Netscum, Bane of Elves.
melp...@cruzio.com
<mailsom...@localhost.aol.com> wrote:
>
>Mel,
> I think you are missing the point. We are from a time now long gone
>by. A time when people on the net would freely help each other with code bits
>and time. There was no profit motive, there was only a sense of kinship and
>camaraderie in those of us that were charged with taming this wild land. It
>was truely a noble time of the internet, a time before E-commerce. The glory
>wasn't in dollars, it was in deeds and recognition. To deny someone this
>recognition of effort givin freely was, and still is for those of us from
>those days, a most henious sin. We don't take kindly to 'those' types.
>
> - Z
I'm not missing the point.
If you'll see my post where I included the "credits" from Medievia,
you will see that there is recognition and credit given.
Some people think it's evil to run a mud for profit. As a mud-player,
I don't mind paying for a mud - it's entertainment. I don't mind
paying for music, theatre, movies, books or any other form of
amusement.
What mud-owner wouldn't love to be paid for running a mud so that she
could devote all her time to it? As a player, I'd rather play
somewhere without typos, where the game is stable, where the admins
don't interfere with game play, than on a hobby mud where all of the
above occurs. Of course, not all players are like me, and there are
plenty of muds out there that are free.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
melp...@cruzio.com
<nuutti.k...@sonera.com> wrote (in part):
[I wrote]:
>> What's with all this newbie crap? It ranks up there with spelling
>> flames.
>
>He advises you to go to deja and read a couple hundred articles about
>this very same subject, so that you won't have to repeat old things
>again and again but maybe could get something new to this discussion.
>
>He says you are a newbie because you obviously doesn't have the
>background information on the subject. Even just reading the license
>would've given you some.
Newsgroups either get new readers in them or they die. Newsgroups
often revisit the same discussions with new people. If you merely
wish to discuss new topics, then why not killfile any posts containing
Medievia? Perhaps because you enjoy revisiting said topics.
I was looking for information. If you net geezers here in
rec.games.mud.diku feel this topic has been discussed to death, then
WHY do you continue to post insults and derisive comments? Hey, go to
Deja and read the old posts if you feel you need an outlet for that.
I wouldn't have felt compelled to post if I hadn't seen the same posts
I've been reading off and on in this group for the past several years.
I think I have something to add to this conversation, as I've never
posted about it prior to the past couple of days.
Feel free to killfile this newbie if my discussion bothers you.
Superfluity does not vitiate.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
melp...@cruzio.com
<ar...@trelleborg.mail.telia.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 melp...@cruzio.com wrote:
>
>> Here's what it says when you type "credits" on Medievia:
>>
>> -----------------
>> Medievia was designed compatible outwardly with the standard Diku
>> interface but Medievia is not a DIKU MUD inside or out.
>
>[Snip rest of credits]
>
>
>Considering that many people in this newsgroup have or have seen the
>source to Medievia, and that they claim that it is a stock Merc with some
>(apparently bad) additions, how can then Medievia not be a Diku MUD?
Don't take my word for it that it's not a stock Merc with some
additions. See for yourself. It is instantly apparent that it is
not.
Judging from the type of response I've received from people in this
newsgroup, I'll have to add that I would have a hard time believing
certain people's claims to have seen the source. Certain posters'
credibility is not real high for me.
I think this is a case of repeating lies long enough so that people
begin to believe they are true without substantiation.
"Don't confuse me with the facts!"
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
AxL
>
>"Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
>sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain our
>name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud. "
>
>Medievia is certainly not a running version of DikuMud. Anyone who
>thinks it is need only log in to a DikuMud, and then log in to
>Medievia. That should clear up any doubts.
Ahh, finally we get to the heart of the matter; you feel it
isn't a Diku, we feel that it is a Diku. The source code is available
on the `net, feel free to take a look for yourself. Various code
snippets used to be posted here years ago as well, try looking for that.
But tell us, on what basis do you say "Medievia is certainly not
a running version of DikuMud." ? We've done our homework a long time
ago. Time for you to show up with some facts. In 1991-92, Vryce obtained
the MERC source code, and customised it into Medievia. At what point
between then and now, in your opinion, did Medievia cease being both a
MERC Mud and a DikuMUD?
melp...@cruzio.com
>[Here is a better follow-up on this thread. I realize I may have been
>overly-dismissive beforehand.]
Thank you. You were overly dismissive. I appreciate your recognition
of this.
>In article <3973e908...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>If someone uses DIKU code for mud version 1, changes to MERC for mud
>>version 2, and rewrites the code for mud version 3, then I fail to see
>>how that would be covered by any reasonable interpretation of the
>>license.
>
> The problem is that you really don't know what is going on.
>That is why I used the (apt) term "newbie", because you have jumped into
>along-standing debate witout knowing the facts. Again, do some damn
>research before spouting half-truths.
I was looking for pointers from people who claim to know. If you're
too busy to provide those, then you shouldn't have bothered to respond
to my message in the first place.
Your opinion is that I don't know The Facts well enough to have an
opinion on this subject. I disagree. I asked for substantiation of
what you claim.
If you want to be taken seriously, drop the insults.
>History lesson time.
>
> First there was Diku. Several people took Diku code, rewrote
>portions, and re-released it to the public under the name of MERC. It
>still contained and followed the original Diku license, and added its
>own. MERC is a derivitave work of Diku. Some people chose to work off
>the original Diku code, adding their own modifications. Others built
>their mud off the MERC code, like Medievia. Some even took the MERC
>code, retooled parts, and re-released a new derivitave (ROM, for
>example), which then contained its own license, plus MERC's and Diku's.
>In all of the above cases, the subsequent works are derivitave of
>someone else's code. If that someone else licenses and/or restricts the
>usage of their product, then it must be followed.
And if someone drops the MERC, then what? Begins anew.
>>From what I've been able to ascertain, the original DIKU code was
>>buggy, leaky and unwieldy. I would imagine that none of it is in use
>>at Medievia today.
>
> It was quite buggy, yes. Meaning you had to have atleast
>somewhat of a clue to get it running. Medievia did not deal with this
>aspect at all. It started by downloading MERC, and building from there.
>A stable, bug-free platform.
>
> To this day, huge portions of Medievia's code is untouched frm
>the MERC and Diku days. This isn't conjecture or speculation, this is
>fact. Many people on the `net have gotten ahold of the Medievia source
>code, and can verify that it is indeed still a MERC, which is still a
>Diku.
Where is this source code? Now, if your allegations are true, then
the Diku authors ought to have a real strong case against Medievia.
Why haven't they sued? If your allegation that many people on the net
have gotten ahold of the Medievia source code - wait a minute, isn't
that stealing? Isn't that what you claim to be upset about in the
first place?
I can't imagine why no one has posted the code that you claim is Merc
or Diku. If it's stolen code, as you claim, then there wouldn't be
repercussions for posting it. It could even be posted through an
anonymous remailer to this newsgroup - why hasn't it been? Not the
entire source, certainly, but the snips that you claim to be there?
Could it be that your claim is completely untrue?
As I've said before, anyone who believes that Medievia is a Diku (or
even a Merc) has only to log into a Diku or a Merc for 15 minutes,
then log into Medievia and they will instantly see that it is not.
>>The DIKU authors also accused Everquest of ripping them off too,
>>didn't they?
>
> Yes, and after EverQuest allowed the Diku people to examine the
>code, they determined that it was not. All explained on their website,
>http://www.dikumud.com
One thought that occurs to me is that perhaps the Diku authors are
attempted to take credit for more than they are due. Of course, I'm a
newbie - feel free to disregard my comment, since it's made out of
ignorance.
>>How about posting a copy of the license agreement? I haven't seen it
>>and would sure like to.
>
> I posted the URL for the DikuMUD license. I have never seen or
>heard of a real AberMUD license, and since I don't believe the Diku team
>took actual Aber code and rewrote it, it may not be applicable.
>Conjecture on my part, as I really do not know.
Thank you for what you posted.
Now, you said earlier:
"If rewritten a) 100% from scratch, and b) without using a single
line of DikuMUD code, not looking at it for a reference, etc... then
yes, it'd be an original work, and not derivitave. Since both a) and
b) are false, it is a derivitave work."
I imagine the authors of DikuMud looked at the Abermud source as a
reference or perhaps an inspiration. They may even have a few lines
of code that are similar (if they're written in the same language, I'm
sure they do). It's a derivative work by your definition above. That
doesn't make it a ripoff.
[Earlier you said]:
>>>this exact same thread. Vryce and the ppl that are responsible for the
>>>mud are the target. Btw, I graduated years ago. Not everyone from an
>>>.edu site is a student. Any more stereotypes I can burst for you?
According to your resume, you got your BA in 1999. Not exactly years
ago, is it?
>>That's just not true. You have said insulting things in this very
>>thread about people who play Medievia.
>
> Yes, as I said before, I used the term "sheep" several times,
>but later realized that it isn't the player's fault, it is the
>administrators.
Yes, and that's not all.
Your credibility is practically nil.
(Got your killfile working yet?)
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
M. Whittington
>Some people think it's evil to run a mud for profit. As a mud-player,
>I don't mind paying for a mud - it's entertainment. I don't mind
>paying for music, theatre, movies, books or any other form of
>amusement.
No, this isn't quite correct. I doubt anyone here would care that
Medievia charged players to play, IF they had actually written the
code from scratch. In fact, it would likely be lauded as a valiant
effort, and there would be no animosity at all.
But the fact is, many credible coders have access to Medievia code,
have inspected it, and have found huge sections of still commented
by the original authors code. Roll that over your tongue a few
times. The claim by Medievia is that there is no code from DIKU
or Merc lingering in the system. The fact is, that is just not so.
And the owner(s) of Medievia are using that assertion (clearly
incorrect) to charge money for the game, in direct violation of the
DIKU license.
There really is no argument. They're unabashed, unembarassed
thieves. The pity is that so many players neither know nor care.
And even if they know, they still don't care.
As for the popularity issue, it irritates me that so many people
seem to think that quantity and quality are synonymous. That just
has never been, and will never be the case. If it were, then AOL
would be the finest thing ever to happen to the internet. McDonald's
would serve the finest cuisine on the planet.
It's about integrity. Sure, that may be an "old world" concept, but
many still care about it. Many still try, against increasing odds,
to keep integrity alive. And most don't. Most just fall for the
glitz of advertising claims, and never look beneath the surface.
Life sucks, then you run a MUD.
hilberg steven d
>Don't take my word for it that it's not a stock Merc with some
>additions. See for yourself. It is instantly apparent that it is
>not.
How is it "instantly apparent"? Because the game 'looks' different when
you log in? 90% of the code is under the surface, so without seeing the
source code, how would you know, especially when people who have seen the
source disagree with you?
>Judging from the type of response I've received from people in this
>newsgroup, I'll have to add that I would have a hard time believing
>certain people's claims to have seen the source. Certain posters'
>credibility is not real high for me.
Yes, well, should we take Vryce's word over theirs? Why don't we just
ask him to post the source code and we can clear this right up....
>I think this is a case of repeating lies long enough so that people
>begin to believe they are true without substantiation.
Except that numerous people here have seen the code.
--
Steve Hilberg <Necromancer> CCSO Workstation Support Group
<hil...@uiuc.edu> KB9TEV
The _No Carrier_ Shadowrun Site CCSO _still_ doesn't pay me enough to
http://kestrel.cso.uiuc.edu/~sdh speak for them, so I still don't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And if He ever suffered, it was me who did His crying...."
-- Concrete Blonde, "Tomorrow Wendy"
melp...@cruzio.com
>In article <39747dc...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
>>sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain our
>>name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud. "
>>
>>Medievia is certainly not a running version of DikuMud. Anyone who
>>thinks it is need only log in to a DikuMud, and then log in to
>>Medievia. That should clear up any doubts.
>
> Ahh, finally we get to the heart of the matter; you feel it
>isn't a Diku, we feel that it is a Diku. The source code is available
>on the `net, feel free to take a look for yourself. Various code
>snippets used to be posted here years ago as well, try looking for that.
I just checked on Deja. I did a power search using keyword
"medievia," and limited dates from Jan 1 1995 to Jan 1 2000. I was
unable to find anything that looked like code snippets. (If you doubt
me, by all means, try the same search.)
Could you please provide further instruction on where to get actual
code snippets?
> But tell us, on what basis do you say "Medievia is certainly not
>a running version of DikuMud." ? We've done our homework a long time
>ago. Time for you to show up with some facts. In 1991-92, Vryce obtained
>the MERC source code, and customised it into Medievia. At what point
>between then and now, in your opinion, did Medievia cease being both a
>MERC Mud and a DikuMUD?
According to How Medievia Got Started, on the Medievia homepage, at
http://www.medievia.com/start.html, Medievia IV started in February
1996.
I have no inside knowledge. I have no reason to believe that this is
untrue.
So, the time comes to put up or shut up. Prove your allegations, or
stop repeating them.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
Russ Taylor
> If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
> no longer derivative of Merc1?
Only if it were written with "clean room" techniques, which would
require getting an entirely new coding staff.
> Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
Yup, but that has been retroactively authorized by WotC (who owns
Dungeons and Dragons)
> Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
No. Apple purchased the rights to the PARC research in exchange for
Apple stock -- which turned Xerox a tidy profit.
>Did Microsoft rip off
> Apple for their interface for Windows?
No. Microsoft got the rights to use portions of the MacOS for purposes
of writing Microsoft applications, and used this as a legal trick to
justify Windows 1.0.
> I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
> (by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
> like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
> reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
> argument and wearing quite thin.
It's the license violating (i.e. charging for play) that pisses people
off.
KaVir
No, it says (and I quote) "We began work on Medievia IV in early
1995". On The Mud Connector (http://www.mudconnector.com/) the
description they wrote of their mud states "We opened in 1992
and never stopped coding and re-coding the game".
KaVir.
KaVir
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:06:39 GMT, The Arrow
><ar...@trelleborg.mail.telia.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 melp...@cruzio.com wrote:
>>
>>> Here's what it says when you type "credits" on Medievia:
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>> Medievia was designed compatible outwardly with the standard
>>> Diku interface but Medievia is not a DIKU MUD inside or out.
>>
>>[Snip rest of credits]
>>
>>
>>Considering that many people in this newsgroup have or have
>>stock Merc with some (apparently bad) additions, how can then
>>Medievia not be a Diku MUD?
>
>additions. See for yourself. It is instantly apparent that it
>is not.
A polished turd is still a turd.
>Judging from the type of response I've received from people in
>this newsgroup, I'll have to add that I would have a hard time
>believing certain people's claims to have seen the source.
>Certain posters' credibility is not real high for me.
AxL may not be polite, but he is correct. Medievia IV is based
upon Merc 1.0, which is based upon the Diku code. I have a copy
of the code myself and have looked through it - it is most
definitely Diku/Merc (it even has one of Furey's comments in the
code). But somehow I get the impression you're not interested
in the truth...
PhoenxHwk
decide for themselves? I know I'd certainly like a look under the
hood of Medievia.
-J
[snip]
> AxL may not be polite, but he is correct. Medievia IV is based
> upon Merc 1.0, which is based upon the Diku code. I have a copy
> of the code myself and have looked through it - it is most
> definitely Diku/Merc (it even has one of Furey's comments in the
> code). But somehow I get the impression you're not interested
> in the truth...
[snip]
Jon A. Lambert
> On 18 Jul 2000 14:51:10 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>
> I just checked on Deja. I did a power search using keyword
> "medievia," and limited dates from Jan 1 1995 to Jan 1 2000. I was
> unable to find anything that looked like code snippets. (If you doubt
> me, by all means, try the same search.)
>
DejaNews archives currently only go back to October 1999.
I am told they will be restored back to 1995 sometime in September.
I personally recall the source code snippets being posted in 1995 or
early 1996.
> According to How Medievia Got Started, on the Medievia homepage, at
> http://www.medievia.com/start.html, Medievia IV started in February
> 1996.
According to http://www.medievia.com/vrycebio.html
Medievia IV premiered in 1994
The web page you listed was obviously updated to reflect the FACT that
Medtheivia IV was exposed as a FRAUD here in late 95 or early 96.
Inconsistencies like this happen when one is dealing with a liar
and a thief who has literally and metaphorically created a web of
lies.
--
J. Lambert
Jon A. Lambert
news:uG6d5.103272$t91.7...@news4.giganews.com...
>
> You seem to be using an odd definition of the word derivative though.
Correct. His use of the word derivative is not the same usage as
the term in copyright law.
--
J. Lambert
Stuart
MOVE ON, yes take your own damn advise and move on, instead of spending all your
time
whining over something which aint accomplishing anything apart from filling a
newsgroup with spam
move on with your life!
AxL wrote:
> In article <39738325...@invalid.com>,
> Stuart <not...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >Well said!, I've never heard so much whining over a mud base before, I guess
> >something personal happened between these people, because any normal
> >person would
> >move on and not devote their life to obsessing over a mud..
> [...]
>
> Spoken like a true dumbass. Move along, child, move along.
David Bennett
> Well said!, I've never heard so much whining over a mud base before, I guess
> something personal happened between these people, because any normal person would
> move on and not devote their life to obsessing over a mud..
Have you ever spent several years on one single project to have someone else
come and take credit for all your work? Do you think you would be annoyed?
DO you think you would be annoyed for one day then say 'Oh yes, well that
is over with'.
> DIKU borrowed plenty of ideas from other places, and you dont see a pack of people
> complaining about that..
There is a big difference between borrowing *ideas* and using code. Ideas
are ephemeral and you still need to turn them into reality, code is the
reality.
Fluffy in a small patch,
David.
David Bennett
> On 17 Jul 2000 18:47:05 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote (in
> part):
> If someone uses DIKU code for mud version 1, changes to MERC for mud
> version 2, and rewrites the code for mud version 3, then I fail to see
> how that would be covered by any reasonable interpretation of the
> license.
It is. GO and try and license a library off someone, change it a bunch
and onsell it. Try and claim that library is actually your code and
not derivative. You will not get far, the courts have done some ruling
in this area already.
> From what I've been able to ascertain, the original DIKU code was
> buggy, leaky and unwieldy. I would imagine that none of it is in use
> at Medievia today.
That is not the point, the point is that is derived from the original code.
Did Medevia at any point, throw away all of the old code and completely
rewrite it from the scratch, from nothing? They would also have to do
this without looking at the original code.
> The DIKU authors also accused Everquest of ripping them off too,
> didn't they?
Yes, and Verrant settled out of court.
Slowly burning in the deep sea,
David.
David Bennett
> I don't think that the owners of DikuMud are entitled to have their
> names listed on any mud that a person writes in perpetuity simply
> because that person at one time may have used DikuMud. That's just
> silly.
Errrr... Really? It doesn't matter if it is silly if it is in the license
agreement. You agreed to abide by that agreement when you use the code,
doesn't matter if it is silly. If you didn't want to abide by the license
you could use a different code base (and there were other code bases
around with less restrictive licenses).
> The license agreement states that:
> "Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
> sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain our
> name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud. "
> Medievia is certainly not a running version of DikuMud. Anyone who
> thinks it is need only log in to a DikuMud, and then log in to
> Medievia. That should clear up any doubts.
This tells you absolutely nothing. It is amazingly easy to change how
a mud looks.
> If the world worked the way you seem to think it does, no one would
> ever invent anything, because all work is derivative in some fashion.
> You seem to be saying that, because at one time, Medievia was a Diku
> mud, it shall be forever a Diku mud. If this is not what you are
> saying, then please clarify.
Perhaps you should go and look at how patents work... Or go and lookup
the GNU copyleft license agreement and see how that works. In the
commercial world most people buy the usuage licence of something off
someone, or they negotiate the terms of usage.
You seem to be using an odd definition of the word derivative though. If
I go to a web site and I see a nice web base buliten board system then
go home and write something like that myself... THis is not derivative.
If I take their code, mangle it, rinse it and give it a good dry, this is
derivative. No matter how different my code is at the end, it is still
a derivative. So in the first case I could do whatever I like with the
code I write. I could add a licence requireing people to put my name
on every page which displays an article. In the second case I am
limited by the original license, unless I negotiate a different license
with the original licensee.
Covered in small buttery drops of fluff,
David.
melp...@cruzio.com
<richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote:
[I wrote:]
>>According to How Medievia Got Started, on the Medievia
>>homepage, at c, Medievia IV started in February 1996.
[but you snipped the url, which is http://www.medievia.com/start.html]
>No, it says (and I quote) "We began work on Medievia IV in early
>1995". On The Mud Connector (http://www.mudconnector.com/) the
>description they wrote of their mud states "We opened in 1992
>and never stopped coding and re-coding the game".
It says, and I quote: "February 1st, 1996 Medievia IV opened to the
public. Brand new and full of promise it remains the shining example
of the mud community."
This is the source of my date of February 1996. I am not trying to
mislead anyone, nor misrepresent the facts.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
brian moore
melp...@cruzio.com <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:14:16 -0700, KaVir
> <richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote:
>
> [I wrote:]
> >>According to How Medievia Got Started, on the Medievia
> >>homepage, at c, Medievia IV started in February 1996.
>
> [but you snipped the url, which is http://www.medievia.com/start.html]
>
> >No, it says (and I quote) "We began work on Medievia IV in early
> >1995". On The Mud Connector (http://www.mudconnector.com/) the
> >description they wrote of their mud states "We opened in 1992
> >and never stopped coding and re-coding the game".
>
> It says, and I quote: "February 1st, 1996 Medievia IV opened to the
> public. Brand new and full of promise it remains the shining example
> of the mud community."
(we'll keep this small.)
~/tarballs/medievia/src % ls -l act*.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 35003 Feb 4 1996 act_comm.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 66517 Feb 4 1996 act_info.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 50635 Feb 4 1996 act_move.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 24273 Feb 4 1996 act_o1.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 37337 Feb 4 1996 act_o2.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 34436 Feb 4 1996 act_off.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 30109 Feb 4 1996 act_oth.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 8675 Feb 4 1996 act_soc.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 126366 Feb 4 1996 act_wiz.c
-rw------- 1 bem bem 12490 Feb 4 1996 act_wiz2.c
> This is the source of my date of February 1996. I am not trying to
> mislead anyone, nor misrepresent the facts.
And at that point, it was hardly 'new'.
~/tarballs/medievia/src % grep Furey *.c
spec_pro.c: * getting loaded into the pet shop back room. -- Furey
Amazing how "brand new" still includes Furey's name in the comments.
Certainly, by line count, there's a lot of Vryce code there... but it is
only because he can't code worth shit. Everyone I know that has seen
the source has said it's the worst thing they've seen. Amazingly
inefficient and just downright UGLY.
I mean, what sort of moron would write crap like this (from do_score):
global_color=34;
send_to_char("Hit Points: ",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_HIT(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char("(",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_MAX_HIT(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char(") Mana: ",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_MANA(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char("(",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_MAX_MANA(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char(") Movement: ",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_MOVE(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char("(",ch);
global_color=0;
sprintf(buf, "%d", GET_MAX_MOVE(ch));
send_to_char(buf,ch);
global_color=34;
send_to_char(")\n\r",ch);
global_color? What a fricking joke. All that spew in order to print
-one- line of the score.
Certainly both MERC and Diku (and, yep, even ROM) have their ugly coding
spots... but NOTHING approaching the morass of ugliness that Medthievia
is.
Oh, did I mention the above is by Vryce, who is also Michael Krause of
Blue Bell, PA? I wonder if he includes his "innovative" work when
applying for jobs. Has his employers seen this wonderful code?
melp...@cruzio.com
<richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote (in part):
>AxL may not be polite, but he is correct. Medievia IV is based
>upon Merc 1.0, which is based upon the Diku code. I have a copy
>of the code myself and have looked through it - it is most
>definitely Diku/Merc (it even has one of Furey's comments in the
>code). But somehow I get the impression you're not interested
>in the truth...
Whatever gives you that idea? Because I have been asking for
verification of statements that have been given in this newsgroup as
The Truth? Or for some other reason? Please enlighten me as to why
you believe this.
Why not post some snippets of the code, along with the Diku code for
comparison, side by side, and let the readers judge? "Because I said
so" isn't a very convincing argument.
--Mel
melp...@cruzio.com
brian moore
Sigh... okay:
void spell_bless(byte level, struct char_data *ch,
struct char_data *victim, struct obj_data *obj)
{
struct affected_type af;
if(ch && (victim || obj)){
if (obj) {
if ( (5*GET_LEVEL(ch) > GET_OBJ_WEIGHT(obj)) &&
(GET_POS(ch) != POSITION_FIGHTING) &&
!IS_OBJ_STAT(obj, ITEM_EVIL)) {
SET_BIT(obj->obj_flags.extra_flags, ITEM_BLESS);
act("$p briefly glows.",FALSE,ch,obj,0,TO_CHAR);
}
} else {
if(!victim)return;
if (affected_by_spell(victim, SPELL_BLESS))
affect_from_char(victim, SPELL_BLESS);
send_to_char("You feel righteous.\n\r", victim);
af.type = SPELL_BLESS;
af.duration = 6+level;
af.modifier = 5;
af.location = APPLY_HITROLL;
af.bitvector = 0;
affect_to_char(victim, &af);
af.location = APPLY_SAVING_SPELL;
af.modifier = -1; /* Make better */
affect_to_char(victim, &af);
}
}
}
vs:
void spell_bless(byte level, struct char_data *ch,
struct char_data *victim, struct obj_data *obj)
{
struct affected_type af;
assert(ch && (victim || obj));
assert((level >= 0) && (level <= 50));
if (obj) {
if ( (5*GET_LEVEL(ch) > GET_OBJ_WEIGHT(obj)) &&
(GET_POS(ch) != POSITION_FIGHTING) &&
!IS_OBJ_STAT(obj, ITEM_EVIL)) {
SET_BIT(obj->obj_flags.extra_flags, ITEM_BLESS);
act("$p briefly glows.",FALSE,ch,obj,0,TO_CHAR);
}
} else {
if ((GET_POS(victim) != POSITION_FIGHTING) &&
(!affected_by_spell(victim, SPELL_BLESS))) {
send_to_char("You feel righteous.\n\r", victim);
af.type = SPELL_BLESS;
af.duration = 6+level;
af.modifier = 1;
af.location = APPLY_HITROLL;
af.bitvector = 0;
affect_to_char(victim, &af);
af.location = APPLY_SAVING_SPELL;
af.modifier = -1; /* Make better */
affect_to_char(victim, &af);
}
}
}
One is from Merc1.0. One is from MedieviaIV. Which is which?
(This code chosen because magic.c is relatively immune to Vryce's ugly
coding and because the single comment [rare in Merc!] is exactly the
same.)
rr...@lanminds.com
>>
>> To this day, huge portions of Medievia's code is untouched frm
>>the MERC and Diku days. This isn't conjecture or speculation, this is
>>fact. Many people on the `net have gotten ahold of the Medievia source
>>code, and can verify that it is indeed still a MERC, which is still a
>>Diku.
>
>Where is this source code? Now, if your allegations are true, then
>the Diku authors ought to have a real strong case against Medievia.
>Why haven't they sued?
>
The DIKU creators are in Denmark (unless they have moved.) If they
want to sue Medievia, they have to do it in America. The common
penalty in a copyright infringement case is that you get triple
damages for what losses the infringement has cost you. Since the Diku
license explicitly states that you can't make money off of it, you
can't lose money if it's been infringed. So, the Diku people could
take time off of work to go to America, spend money hiring a lawyer,
probably successfully argue the case in court, and the most likely
verdict would be that Vryce would have to stop accepting money and put
the credits in that the license requires, or else shut down the mud.
Now, would you spend all the money to do that? When the same thing
could (should) be accomplished by people following the license? And,
if you were a lawyer, would you want to take on a case where there was
next to no money to be made? That is (imo) why the Diku team doesn't
sue. It's a moral victory that would cost them money and time away
from work, family, and friends.
They may have. As far as I can tell (not having read the Aber code),
the Aber people didn't put in a license that required that they be
credited, etc. The Diku license clearly says:
"This license must *always* be included "as is" if you copy or give
away any part of DikuMud (which is to be done as described in this
document)."
and
"Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login
sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain
our name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created
DikuMud.
You are allowed to alter DikuMud, source and documentation as long as
you do not violate any of the above stated rules."
This last bit is why the Diku license applies to any mud made from a
code that has Diku code anywhere in its history. You could
technically get to a 15th generation, full-immersion 3-D game, and if
it's a great-great-great-...-grandchild of a Diku codebase, it would
still be bound by the Diku license. Other people add their own
licenses if they feel that the code that they are releasing is
sufficiently altered (as in the case of Circle, for example), but that
merely supplements what the Diku license allows, and does not free you
of the obligations imposed by the Diku license. (The Circle license,
for example, expounds on what exactly is covered under the ""can't
make a profit" part, and adds its own credits as well.)
You could also start with the original Diku code, and re-write it to
be something entirely different, but since you are altering Diku as
you go, you are still bound by the license, even if the result does
not resemble Diku in any way.
Kira Skydancer
>--Mel
>melp...@cruzio.com
Jon A. Lambert
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:26:12 -0700, KaVir
> <richard.wool...@rsuk.rsd.de.invalid> wrote (in part):
>
> >AxL may not be polite, but he is correct. Medievia IV is based
> >upon Merc 1.0, which is based upon the Diku code. I have a copy
> >of the code myself and have looked through it - it is most
> >definitely Diku/Merc (it even has one of Furey's comments in the
> >code). But somehow I get the impression you're not interested
> >in the truth...
>
> Whatever gives you that idea? Because I have been asking for
> verification of statements that have been given in this newsgroup as
> The Truth? Or for some other reason? Please enlighten me as to why
> you believe this.
>
Let's play "Guess the Codebase"?
One of these is a function audit of a Diku module and the other
a comparable Medthievia IV module.
--------The codebase behind Door number 1 --------
void act(char *str, int hide_invisible, struct char_data *ch,
struct obj_data *obj, void *vict_obj, int type)
void close_socket(struct descriptor_data *d)
void close_sockets(int s)
void coma(int s)
void flush_queues(struct descriptor_data *d)
int game_loop(int s)
int get_from_q(struct txt_q *queue, char *dest)
int init_socket(int port)
int main(int argc, char **argv)
int new_connection(int s)
int new_descriptor(int s)
void nonblock(int s)
int process_input(struct descriptor_data *t)
int process_output(struct descriptor_data *t)
int run_the_game(int port)
void send_to_all(char *messg)
void send_to_char(char *messg, struct char_data *ch)
void send_to_except(char *messg, struct char_data *ch)
void send_to_outdoor(char *messg)
void send_to_room(char *messg, int room)
void send_to_room_except(char *messg, int room, struct char_data *ch)
void send_to_room_except_two
(char *messg, int room, struct char_data *ch1, struct char_data *ch2)
int write_to_descriptor(int desc, char *txt)
void write_to_q(char *txt, struct txt_q *queue)
--------------------------------------------------------
--------The codebase behind Door number 2 --------
void act(char *str, int hide_invisible, struct char_data *ch,
struct obj_data *obj, void *vict_obj, int type)
void block(int s)
void close_socket(struct descriptor_data *d)
void do_togglehost(struct char_data *ch, char *argument, int cmd)
void do_trivia(void){
void flush_queues(struct descriptor_data *d)
void game_loop( int control )
char *get_from_q(struct txt_q *queue)
int init_socket(int port)
int main( int argc, char *argv[] )
void mcheck_hook(enum mcheck_status STATUS)
int new_connection(int s)
int new_descriptor(int s)
void night_watchman(void)
void nonblock(int s)
int number_playing(void)
int process_input(struct descriptor_data *t)
int process_output(struct descriptor_data *t)
void prompt(struct descriptor_data *point)
void send_to_all(char *messg)
void send_to_char(char *messg, struct char_data *ch)
void send_to_outdoor(char *messg)
void send_to_room(char *messg, int room)
void sort_descriptor(struct descriptor_data *d)
void sort_descriptors(void)
int write_to_descriptor(int desc, char *txt)
void write_to_q(char *txt, struct txt_q *queue)
--------------------------------------------------------
Hmmmm....
--
--* Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Email:jlsy...@NOSPAM.ix.netcom.com *--
--* Mud Server Developer's Page <http://tychomud.home.netcom.com> *--
--* If I had known it was harmless, I would have killed it myself.*--
ro...@piped-dream.lvcablemodem.com
: Let's play "Guess the Codebase"?
: One of these is a function audit of a Diku module and the other
: a comparable Medthievia IV module.
Mr. Host sir, could I have whats in the box? Both look mighty ugly. I can't?
Well then, at a guess, door number 1. Those extra send_to's seem to me like
writing and rewriting, and going from scratch, and creating pointless shit.
Jaeger
Korlish
only to read the help files. Where can I get it?
Nuutti Kotivuori
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:22:33 GMT, Nuutti Kotivuori
> <nuutti.k...@sonera.com> wrote (in part):
>
> [I wrote]:
>>> What's with all this newbie crap? It ranks up there with spelling
>>> flames.
>>
>> He advises you to go to deja and read a couple hundred articles
>> about this very same subject, so that you won't have to repeat old
>> things again and again but maybe could get something new to this
>> discussion.
>>
>> He says you are a newbie because you obviously doesn't have the
>> background information on the subject. Even just reading the
>> license would've given you some.
>
> Newsgroups either get new readers in them or they die. Newsgroups
> often revisit the same discussions with new people. If you merely
> wish to discuss new topics, then why not killfile any posts
> containing Medievia? Perhaps because you enjoy revisiting said
> topics.
Oh I'm a new reader to this newsgroup as well. I have no doubt some
people here enjoy arguing over Medievia.
> I was looking for information. If you net geezers here in
> rec.games.mud.diku feel this topic has been discussed to death, then
> WHY do you continue to post insults and derisive comments? Hey, go
> to Deja and read the old posts if you feel you need an outlet for
> that.
Um. I felt you had an aggressive stance from the beginning. You did
not come to ask for information about the subject, you did not ask
somebody to explain it all to you, you came here saying that Medievia
is not a Diku derivative and you are all wrong. That may be just me
and my tired mind, but that's how it felt.
And as I see it, the people here are posting because they think that
they are right. It's not a case or boring discussions or just insults
and derisive comments, both sides have a reason to post.
Just because it has been said for years that Medievia is based on Diku
code, does not mean that it won't be said again and again if someone
claims otherwise.
> I wouldn't have felt compelled to post if I hadn't seen the same
> posts I've been reading off and on in this group for the past
> several years. I think I have something to add to this
> conversation, as I've never posted about it prior to the past couple
> of days.
Um. I'm actually very glad that this discussion has come up, since I
myself don't know much about the matter. Besides, some of the comments
here make me grin.
Well anyway.
Too bad deja seems to have a little low coverage on past news these
days. It seems the code snippets (including dates) have started to
come up again and we all may share a bit of humor.
-- Naked
Angela Christine
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:59:51 -0400, Z
><mailsom...@localhost.aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Mel,
>> I think you are missing the point. We are from a time now long gone
>>by. A time when people on the net would freely help each other with code bits
>>and time. There was no profit motive, there was only a sense of kinship and
>>camaraderie in those of us that were charged with taming this wild land. It
>>was truely a noble time of the internet, a time before E-commerce. The glory
>>wasn't in dollars, it was in deeds and recognition. To deny someone this
>>recognition of effort givin freely was, and still is for those of us from
>>those days, a most henious sin. We don't take kindly to 'those' types.
>>
>> - Z
>
>I'm not missing the point.
>
>If you'll see my post where I included the "credits" from Medievia,
>you will see that there is recognition and credit given.
Credit is given, but it's what my grandmother would have called a
"backhanded compliment" a slap in the face paired with a
compliment. Credit is given in the form of "these guys did great
work a long time ago, but it has nothing to us."
>Some people think it's evil to run a mud for profit. As a mud-player,
>I don't mind paying for a mud - it's entertainment. I don't mind
>paying for music, theatre, movies, books or any other form of
>amusement.
I have no problem with paying to support a mud. Even if the
coders don't take any money for themselves, a mud generally costs
money to run. At the very least you need a machine, an internet
connection and electricity. :) If the mud runs for years, bits
of the machine will eventually need to be replaced, and the mud
may run a little faster on a brand new wiz-bang machine with
piles of memory. If you want the mud to run reliably and fast,
especially with many players, a free or cheap connection may not
do, a really good connection costs money. Personally I think
muds should be allowed to accept donations to offset operating
costs, but since I've never released a codebase I've never gotten
the chance to put something like that in a license.
There are pay-to-play muds that no one objects to. Most of the
"profesional" muds are graphical these days, like Ultima Online
and Everquest, and I don't hear folks complaining that they are
unethical. Then again, this is the diku newsgroup
"alt.games.mud.diku" so those businesses aren't advertised or
discussed extensively here. Likewise, I'm sure there are LP muds
that violate their licences, but they aren't discused here
either, because this is not where LP muds are discused.
The fact that Medievia _is_ advertised and discussed here implys
that some folks, including the ones posting the advertisements,
consider it a diku mud. If you honestly believe that Medivia is
not in any way a Diku or Merc derived mud why are you discussing
it here? Wouldn't rec.games.mud.announce or rec.games.mud.misc
or even alt.mud be more appropriate?
>What mud-owner wouldn't love to be paid for running a mud so that she
>could devote all her time to it? As a player, I'd rather play
>somewhere without typos, where the game is stable, where the admins
>don't interfere with game play, than on a hobby mud where all of the
>above occurs. Of course, not all players are like me, and there are
>plenty of muds out there that are free.
I certainly don't claim to be an expert on this, but the
evolution I've heard goes something like this.
1. Medivia happily advertises itself as a diku/merc (modified)
mud, and includes the required diku credits. All is well.
2. Medivia begins accepting donations.
3. Someone complains that the diku license prohibits accepting
money, and that Medievia is violating that license.
4. Medivia strips off the diku credits and declares itself to be
completely re-written and not a diku/merc mud at all.
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
--Anon
Shanoyu
>
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:37:51 -0400, Mark
> <flamesom...@flamesomeoneelse.com> wrote:
>
> >I guess you do not understand the definition of donation. I play med and I freely
> >give my money in support of V. Moreover give up the license argument it does not
> >wash. If med is so bad as you and other detractors claim ... why do 500-600 people a
> >night play it? Most mudders have played many muds and yet choose med as their home.
>
> Well, it still breaks the license. You should read it sometime.
If someone breaks a licence agreement in the woods and theres no one
there to sue them... *yawn*
> As to why 500 to 600 people a night play it, do you know that Baywatch
> was, during its hayday, the most popular television show on the
> planet? McDonald's is very popular. Commercial TV is popular.
> And what do all these have in common? They sacrifice quality in
> search of popularity, and the almighty dollar.
1. This has nothing to do with why medievia is popular.
2. Donations to medievia are voluntary, you don't have to pay to play.
If Vryce is trying to make money off of medievia then he is an awful
buisnessman. The only two donation items with any great impact on
gameplay (hp/mana talismans) are nodet.
3. Are you a communist? What, do you think it's wrong for buisnesses
like McDonalds to charge money for a service or good they provide?
Should it have to meet some sort of Government Quality specification
before it can be sold?
There is something else in common with all of those things you mentioned
that medievia does not hold. Most of these things fade. McDonalds is
now best known for "What part of the Cow does the McNugget come from?",
Baywatch has had all of it's stars bail out like it's a sinking ship,
Jerry Springer has faded back into the obscurity from whence it came,
Does anyone remember "new kids on the block" ?
> What you choose to do with your money is your concern.
>
> Remember, being part of a huge group makes you a very small member
> of that group. As Mark Twain said, "I was born in the town of Florida
> Missouri, which had a population of one hundred people, and thus I
> increased that population by a full percentage point. I'm sure I
> could have done the same for New York or London, but I felt it was
> important to be near my mother at such a trying time..."
>
> That's okay, nobody expects you to get it. :)
I understand what you are trying to say, that a smaller community is
more open, but it is not pertinent. Medievia solves this problem by
breaking people down into small groups with it's clan system, There is
no global communication (Save medlink, where you can't do anything
gameplay wise anyway, and immort, which is Hero only and has more flames
than an rgmd medievia post.)
Everyone breaks down into their own little groups, Medievia is not
unified, nor can any mud with 300+ people be unified. Granted, this has
resulted in a series of bloody, bloody wars, between groups, but without
conflict whats the fun?
> >p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
>
> You're right, of course, roleplaying isn't for everyone, nor should it
> be. Then again, strutting around as a 4,293rd level Gonzo Warrior is
> pretty damned boring to a lot of us.
The maximum player level on medievia is Current 31 and Total 124. When
you reclass your base stats are reset. Getting good stats in medievia is
more about running and knowing zones and not getting looted clean in cpk
than it is about xp. I don't know anyone in medievia who likes xping.
Your statement is devoid of relevance, sorry.
> And keep this in mind. Not only does Harshlands have permadeath, it
> also has full PK. If you want an adrenaline rush, try that sometime.
> Your character gets one chance. If you die, you die, forever and
> always. Try that, Medievia.
Actually medievia has a cpk system which is, in my opinion, better than
permadeath. Often battles end with people retiring, (Even if only for a
month or so) after being looted clean.
Granted, most battles in cpk are between two groups of 12+ people, but
once someone is killed and looted clean, theres a good chance that
they'll retire. It's one of the more permanent forms of death. And
since the vast majority of good High level eq is in CPK, it balances
out. Granted some people like Daedalus and Tharghan have full sets of
eq decked out for when/if this happens, but thats the exception rather
than the rule. It's harder to retire powerful characters in this
format.
--
Shanoyu - sha...@mindspring.com / sha...@gamehacker.com
-[ We didn't start the fire or shoot the deputy, thanks ]-
Shanoyu
>
> On 17 Jul 2000 14:04:43 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
>
> >In article <397330b5...@cnews.newsguy.com>, <melp...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>On 17 Jul 2000 08:28:09 -0400, a...@oz.plymouth.edu (AxL) wrote:
> >>>(Familiarize yourself with http://www.dikumud.com/diku/Children/index.asp)
> >>>
> >>> Medievia is a derivitave of Merc1, which is a derivitave of
> >>>DikuMUD, plain and simple. One fateful day in 1992, people attempting
> >>>to connect to AdversaryMUD (one of the best, back in the day) instead
> >>>found themselves at this crappy little Merc Mud named Medievia. Most,
> >>>or all, of us here have seen this mud back wehn it did display the
> >>>proper screens, credits, etc... Vryce was still an ass back then (heh,
> >>>and giving god chars in exchange for mudsex, but I guess he's grown out
> >>>of that, finally)....so, he's always been an ass, but its only within
> >>>the last 3-4 years that this "I'm no longer a Diku" crap started.
> >>
> >>If Medievia has been completely rewritten, then would you admit it is
> >>no longer derivative of Merc1?
> >
> >line of DikuMUD code, not looking at it for a reference, etc... then
> >yes, it'd be an original work, and not derivitave. Since both a) and b)
> >are false, it is a derivitave work.
>
> using a single line of anything else, without looking at something
> else for a reference, then it's not original work, and is a ripoff of
> something else.
>
> This argument won't fly in the real world. Most code is derivative of
> something else. If people have to keep reinventing the wheel, we sure
> wouldn't have come very far, now, would we?
>
> >>Did DIKU rip off Dungeons and Dragons?
> >
> >to get popular FTP sites shut down that contained TSR pics, artwork, char
> >sheets, etc... and also some muds that were Forgotten Realms-based. They
> >didn't have a problem with all trhe muds that use "Armor", "Druids", "magic
> >missile", and all that.
>
> So is your criteria whether the authors feel ripped off or not? If
> so, do the DIKU authors feel ripped off by Medievia?
>
> >>Did Apple rip off Xerox for their OS interface?
> >
>
> They did? That's news to me. I thought Jobs stole the idea when he
> visited PARC (excuse me, he was "inspired") - or was it SRI then?
You're right, hes just refering to the popular Made-for-tv movie
starring Noah Wiley(sp?)
Because after all, if it's on tv, it _has_ to be true. ;)
> While we're at it, wasn't hypertext invented at SRI too (if not SRI,
> it certainly was present in Tymshare's Augment)? So the web is a
> ripoff of either SRI or Tymshare by your logic.
>
> >> Did Microsoft rip off
> >>Apple for their interface for Windows?
> >
> > Perhaps, but the courts ruled in Microsoft's favour, so it is a
> >moot point.
>
> If your criteria is what the courts rule upon, then it's hardly
> conclusive, since there has been no court action. Of course, the DIKU
> authors would have to sue. Have they?
>
> Another point I'd like to bring up is that DIKU is a derivative work
> itself - it comes from ABER, and ultimately comes from Adventure. In
> fact, all text muds could be said to come from Adventure.
>
> >>I really don't understand the animosity - and I've read several posts
> >>(by the same people, over and over) - against Medievia. If you don't
> >>like it, fine, don't play there. To say that a game that's now a few
> >>reincarnations from its beginnings is a ripoff of DIKU is an old
> >>argument and wearing quite thin.
> >
> > The words "shit" and "tough" come to mind. Feel free to
> >rearrange the order, if you like.
>
> Boy, I guess you told me. I'm out of my league with arguments like
> that.
>
> >>Given the arguments I've seen and the insults generated toward people
> >>who like Medievia (that popularity means it is base entertainment), I
> >>suspect that those who post to this newsgroup insulting Medievia are
> >>on some sort of crusade.
> >
> > Your point is...? TheTruth (http://www.thetruth.com) is on a
> >crusade. PETA (http://www.peta.org) is on a crusade. SIIA
> >(http://www.siia.net) is on a crusade.
> >
> > People like you are quite content to sit on the curb, and watch
> >others pass by. Others speak up when they see that something is wrong.
>
> Au contraire. You have failed to convince me that anything is wrong.
> Why don't you try - this time, use logic and reason. They go further
> than petty insults (which you're not even very good at - you could at
> least attempt to be amusing).
>
> >>That, or they're perhaps envious of the
> >>player numbers Medievia gets.
> >
> > Here's another well-trod line: Quantity != Quality.
>
> Again, the argument wears thin.
>
> You seem to believe that because a lot of people enjoy a thing, that
> means that thing is crap. That's a pretty elitist attitude, but
> you're welcome to it. It's an attitude snotty young college kids
> often have, but most people lose it by the time they hit their late
> twenties (at least the ones who grow up).
>
> Try judging things on their own merits - you might find the masses
> aren't alway wrong.
>
> Seriously, please answer this: what do you care if other people like
> something you don't like? Does it invalidate you in some way?
>
> --Mel
> melp...@cruzio.com
M. Whittington
wrote:
>If someone breaks a licence agreement in the woods and theres no one
>there to sue them... *yawn*
So, it's all right, in your opinion, to flaunt unethical practices,
because no one complains. This is exactly the attitude that most of
us despise.
>> As to why 500 to 600 people a night play it, do you know that Baywatch
>> was, during its hayday, the most popular television show on the
>> planet?
[snip]
>1. This has nothing to do with why medievia is popular.
Then tell us why it is popular. Can't be quality. Can't be original
code. Neither of those conditions exists.
>2. Donations to medievia are voluntary, you don't have to pay to play.
[snip]
No, but it sure helps if you do, huh?
>3. Are you a communist? What, do you think it's wrong for buisnesses
>like McDonalds to charge money for a service or good they provide?
>Should it have to meet some sort of Government Quality specification
>before it can be sold?
Did I say that? No, you yanked it out of your butt. I don't think
there's anything wrongwith a business charging money for their
legitimate goods. I applaud McDonald's for supplying pap and fooling
jerks into thinking it's edible. Wish I'd thought of it. But I don't
think McDonald's broke any licensing agreements in doing so. Hmm,
guess you're right, there isn't much resemblance, save the pap.
>There is something else in common with all of those things you mentioned
>that medievia does not hold. Most of these things fade. McDonalds is
>now best known for "What part of the Cow does the McNugget come from?",
>Baywatch has had all of it's stars bail out like it's a sinking ship,
>Jerry Springer has faded back into the obscurity from whence it came,
>Does anyone remember "new kids on the block" ?
I didn't mention Jerry Springer. But now that you bring it up, that
show is a lot like Med. Built for the lowest common denominator.
>> What you choose to do with your money is your concern.
>>
>> Remember, being part of a huge group makes you a very small member
>> of that group. As Mark Twain said, "I was born in the town of Florida
>> Missouri, which had a population of one hundred people, and thus I
>> increased that population by a full percentage point. I'm sure I
>> could have done the same for New York or London, but I felt it was
>> important to be near my mother at such a trying time..."
>>
>> That's okay, nobody expects you to get it. :)
>
>I understand what you are trying to say, that a smaller community is
>more open, but it is not pertinent. Medievia solves this problem by
>breaking people down into small groups with it's clan system, There is
>no global communication (Save medlink, where you can't do anything
>gameplay wise anyway, and immort, which is Hero only and has more flames
>than an rgmd medievia post.)
I've logged on to Medievia, and very quickly, despite having an open
mind, got quite bored and annoyed and left it. It's not my cup of
coffee. I dislike games with "guilds" that define your skills, and
with levels, and with the sort of clans you think of as clans, and
a lot of what makes Med tick. I dislike megapowerful characters, I
dislike equipment you can only use if you're a 23rd level Buttkicker,
I dislike a lot of the things commonly found on MUDs.
>Everyone breaks down into their own little groups, Medievia is not
>unified, nor can any mud with 300+ people be unified. Granted, this has
>resulted in a series of bloody, bloody wars, between groups, but without
>conflict whats the fun?
We have our own wars at HL. Currently, the Ivinians from the mainland
are about to invade Orbaal, because the self-styled King of Orbaal has
refused to send tribute home for years. Players are getting involved,
not on both sides, but in factions of Orbaalese with their own private
goals (some want Orbaal to lose, some want it to win, some don't care
as long as they're left alone), but the conflict is much deeper than
any simple "Duh, we kill you now". Bah, why am I even trying to ex-
plain this?
>> >p.s. role-playing laf .. snore zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! gets old real fast.
>>
>> You're right, of course, roleplaying isn't for everyone, nor should it
>> be. Then again, strutting around as a 4,293rd level Gonzo Warrior is
>> pretty damned boring to a lot of us.
>
>The maximum player level on medievia is Current 31 and Total 124. When
>you reclass your base stats are reset. Getting good stats in medievia is
>more about running and knowing zones and not getting looted clean in cpk
>than it is about xp. I don't know anyone in medievia who likes xping.
>Your statement is devoid of relevance, sorry.
One level, thirty one levels, four thousand levels, there's not much
difference to me. It's the whole concept of a level system that I
find annoying. Particularly the way it's implemented on MUDs.
>> And keep this in mind. Not only does Harshlands have permadeath, it
>> also has full PK. If you want an adrenaline rush, try that sometime.
>> Your character gets one chance. If you die, you die, forever and
>> always. Try that, Medievia.
>
>Actually medievia has a cpk system which is, in my opinion, better than
>permadeath. Often battles end with people retiring, (Even if only for a
>month or so) after being looted clean.
That's not really the same thing. You can't imagine the adrenaline
rush you can get knowing that your character, for whom you've cared
and who you've groomed for years might be about to die, forever,
with no recourse but perhaps your character's friends will find out
who did it, and hunt them down. "Retiring" and "dying" are not the
same thing, and I can't imagine how "retiring" could be better, if
you have any sense of perspective at all.
>Granted, most battles in cpk are between two groups of 12+ people, but
>once someone is killed and looted clean, theres a good chance that
>they'll retire. It's one of the more permanent forms of death. And
>since the vast majority of good High level eq is in CPK, it balances
>out. Granted some people like Daedalus and Tharghan have full sets of
>eq decked out for when/if this happens, but thats the exception rather
>than the rule. It's harder to retire powerful characters in this
>format.
If that's what you want, wonderful. But it's not permadeath. It
will never be the same. As for "powerful characters", that's one of
my pet peaves. One thing that's different about our MUD is that a
character starts with a set number of hit points, based on his/her
attributes, and they will never go up (without that rare bit of
magic, which comes with its own costs). There is no gaining of
hit points. Skills improve through use, not because you killed a
dragon. Thieving skills are totally independent of what you may
or may not do with a weapon, they only improve if you actually try
your hand at them. And so it is with all skills in the game.
Hope you're happy at Med. But I also hope you see it as the ripoff
and lie that it is. And if you do, and you're still happy with it,
then all I can say is, McDonald's is for you :)
"Welcome to McDievia, would you like fries with that level?"
AxL
>"M. Whittington" wrote:
>> As to why 500 to 600 people a night play it, do you know that Baywatch
>> was, during its hayday, the most popular television show on the
>> And what do all these have in common? They sacrifice quality in
>> search of popularity, and the almighty dollar.
>
Of course it does. How many Diku muds can afford to advertise
on AOL and take out full-page ads in PC Gamer? One, Medievia, and only
because they illegally take in donations.
>2. Donations to medievia are voluntary, you don't have to pay to play.
>If Vryce is trying to make money off of medievia then he is an awful
>buisnessman. The only two donation items with any great impact on
>gameplay (hp/mana talismans) are nodet.
Really? I have heard many people say something to the effect of
"if you want to get anywhere on this mud, you have to pay to get that
equipment" when asked. If they dont' pay, they get to be middle of the
road players, rather than haveing any chance for top-line.
>3. Are you a communist? What, do you think it's wrong for buisnesses
>like McDonalds to charge money for a service or good they provide?
>Should it have to meet some sort of Government Quality specification
>before it can be sold?
McDonalds doesn't hijack Burger King trucks, steal the Whoppers,
add some special sauce, and call it a Big Mac, though. They make their
own.
AxL
Korlish <gard...@planttel.net> wrote:
>As an occasional Medievia player, I would love to have the source code, if
>only to read the help files. Where can I get it?
I'm sure someone can put it up for downloading if they wanted
too. Hell, who's to say that it can't be? Its just a Diku derivitave
in reality; perhaps by Vryce breaking the Diku license, he has voided
all claim to any Medievia source code as being his and his alone. It'd
be an interesting avenue to explore, at least.
For now we'll have to satisfy this forum with snippets. Who can
forget this gem:
void do_rent(struct char_data *ch, char *argument, int cmd)
{
if(IS_DEAD(ch))
{
send_to_char("Corpses don't need to rent. Just use
quit.\n\r",ch);
return;
}
if(IS_NPC(ch))return;
if(GET_LEVEL(ch)<2&&!ch->player.multi_class){
send_to_char("Sorry, must be level 2 to rent.\n\r",ch);
return;
}
if(world[ch->in_room]->number!=101&&
world[ch->in_room]->number!=3931&&
world[ch->in_room]->number!=7167&&
world[ch->in_room]->number!=2633&&
world[ch->in_room]->number!=2269&& /* Inn of the broken horn */
world[ch->in_room]->number!=2574&& /* Mystical Forest */
world[ch->in_room]->number!=3480){
send_to_char("Sorry, you must rent from within a hotel.\n\r",ch);
ch->p->querycommand=0;
return;
}
[Yep, hard-coded room vnums, to determine where a player can rent.
Musta been too hard for Vryce to think of a receptionist mobflag, or at
least a room spec.]
if(cmd==4623){
if(argument[0]=='Y'||argument[0]=='y'){
GET_GOLD(ch)-=ch->specials.cost_to_rent;
ch->p->querycommand=0;
save_char_obj(ch);
ch->specials.cost_to_rent=-2;/* so put_obj does not list stuff*/
argument[0]=MED_NULL;
do_quit(ch,argument,0);
return;
}
/* otherwise forget it */
ch->p->querycommand=0;
ch->specials.cost_to_rent=0;
return;
}
ch->specials.cost_to_rent=0;
global_color=1;
send_to_char("\n\r\n\rSCROLLS, WANDS, RODS, STAFFS, NOTES and KEYS and \n\rc
ertain other items cannot be saved.\n\r",ch)
send_to_char("Following is cost per/item AND what cannot be
rented:\n\r",ch)
;
ch->p->queryfunc=do_rent;
strcpy(ch->p->queryprompt,"Rent the room and quit? (y/n)> ");
ch->p->querycommand=4623;
ch->specials.cost_to_rent+=5;
save_char_obj(ch);
sprintf(log_buf,"\n\rIt will cost you [%d Gold], to rent with
current equipm
ent.\n\r", ch->specials.cost_to_rent);
send_to_char(log_buf,ch);
global_color=0;
if(GET_GOLD(ch)<ch->specials.cost_to_rent){
global_color=33;
send_to_char("Sorry, you do not have enough gold!\n\r",ch);
global_color=0;
ch->p->querycommand=0;
}
return;
}
[And the now-infamous global_color. Hey Vryce, do your employers at
investmentdiscovery.com know how much of a code whiz you are?]
Jon A. Lambert
You are correct about the scratch mud being behind door number 1.
That's Diku. The mud behind door number 2 is Merc...I mean Mercthievia.
--
J. Lambert
Russ Taylor
moore) wrote:
> One is from Merc1.0. One is from MedieviaIV. Which is which?
>
> (This code chosen because magic.c is relatively immune to Vryce's ugly
> coding and because the single comment [rare in Merc!] is exactly the
> same.)
I think I'm going to go home and cook some Kraft Macaroni and
Cheese....from scratch :)
Korlish
code available to me. I was a little surprised that no one flamed me for
asking for the help files, which are available on-line to any player.
However, I didn't specify, but the help files I want are the secret ones
available only to God and Avatar characters.
Let me interject an answer to an obvious question that seems not to have
been addressed here, which is: "Why do people play Medievia?" An elitist
is tempted to say it's because they don't know any better, and that would be
true in my case, since Medievia is my first MUD. However, I have met
numerous players who have played many other MUDs, and they have returned and
settled on Medievia. The simple answer, which everyone seems eager to
overlook, is that Medievia is fun to play, and I enjoy it a lot. I'm sure
other players play for the same reaason, and not simply to cause frustration
to the original DIKU MUD programmers or to the veterans of this newsgroup.
If the other MUDs are truly so much better, do they want to remain
small? Or should they start charging fees, and marketing, in order to make
their better product available to as many people as possible?
Nevertheless, I will acknowledge a certain moral dilemna. You have
presented a reasonable argument that Mike Krause may have stolen
intellectual property by recycling old DIKU code. Let me ask you (anyone
who cares to respond) a couple of questions, though, in regards to
intellectual property: Have you never (illegally) copied a program for a
friend, and is every shareware or commercial program on your hard disk
paid-for and registered? There may be a few persons of such extremely high
integrity out there, but I suspect that almost all Internet veterans have
rationalized one or two morally dubious decisions.
So as a player who has donated money to Medievia, what do you suggest
that I should do? Perhaps I should request a refund of my donation, and
instead give the money to the original DIKU programmers. Or I could report
Medievia to the Better Business Bureau for unethical business practices. Or
I could go into Medievia as a representative of your viewpoints, and
encourage everyone there to quit immediately.
On the other hand, I could take Mr. Krause at his word that no laws were
broken, no copyrights infringed, and no code stolen. Frankly, your code
snippets are provided with no proof of origin, so they could have come from
anywhere. I think it might take a court order and a search warrant to prove
that the code which is --currently running-- is in fact the code which you
say is derived from DIKU source.
When it comes to customer satisfaction, the proof is in the numbers.
Medievia is a product that people want, and please tell me how many other
MUDs boast as high an ongoing number of online players. You clearly have no
respect for other peoples' preferences, but as long as they continue to
play, your opinions will not matter. I am not saying that I approve of
criminal activity, so please do not misconstrue my remarks if you choose to
respond.
Regarding the financial aspect of the matter, this does make a big
difference. I am not a lawyer, and I suspect neither are you, but I believe
U.S. law provides for reparations in the case of a profitable theft of
intellectual property. In an earlier thread, it was stipulated that the
DIKU programmers do not sue because they could realize no gain; however,
this may not be the case. If a lawsuit were pursued, assets and profits
could reasonably be seized if the case of theft were proven. Now if
Medievia were making no money and Mr. Krause were a pauper, this would be a
moot point, but it may be the case that substantial assets are at risk in
the case of an impropriety.
Let me close by adding that I am not trolling, and that if I am shown to
be wrong in my facts or opinions, I will gladly acknowledge so, and I will
not needlessly insult people who seek to enlighten me.
snafulife
/snip
>If someone breaks a licence agreement in the woods and theres no
>one there to sue them... *yawn*
Hmmm. If I rob, beat to hell, and kill someone in the woods, and
there are no cops or witnesses...
Not related? Merctheivia, robbed the diku/merc code, beat it to
hell with sloppy code, then killed the mudding community's ideals
and free and open sharing of code because of code theives.
//
Snafu Life.
"I hate KEEN!!"
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