Excelent DikuMud!! Check it Out
Pagan
The mud is called EMPIRE.
The address is: cis.clarion.edu 4000
I Found it in the Mud Connector.
It allows Mulitplay and PKilling, but it's not a
PK MUD(thank god). I dont consider myself a pkiller, i dont
do it unless i have to, but i do think allowing it
adds to a game's atmosphere. As long as its not abused.
Combat is cool, you are updated every round with your character
and your opponents condition on the infobar. So you dont have
to LOOK AT your opponent to see if your mess'n him up.
The game has an introduction system so you dont know anyones name
until they introduce themselves to you. I think that is cool.
It has many fantasy classes to choose from, quite a few races too.
Character generation is cool. Each stat starts out with 3 point and
you get to distribute 60 points (i think 60) as you wish to each one.
As far as I can tell the world is completely original.
I didnt run into any 'stock' zones .The gods told me it has been up for
5 years, so they have had pleny of time to modify. The descriptions in
the towns are great and make it easy to visualize your surroundings.
The towns are layed out nicely too.
The only problem with the mud is, 6 is the most people i have seen on
it.
I think that sucks. I cant stand to play a mud and not have at least 50
or
so people on to interact with. That is why i have posted this. I think
the
mud has real potential to be a top mud. So i have brought it upon myself
to endorse it. Please try it out so I will have someone to talk to and
adventure with! My characters name is Jarnus.
See ya on
D. Adkins
Pa...@Reborn.com
P.S.P.A.U.T
Richard Woolcock
Pagan wrote:
>
> The mud is called EMPIRE.
[snip features]
> The only problem with the mud is, 6 is the most people i have seen on
> it. I think that sucks. I cant stand to play a mud and not have at least
> 50 or so people on to interact with. That is why i have posted this. I
> think the mud has real potential to be a top mud. So i have brought it
> upon myself to endorse it. Please try it out so I will have someone to
> talk to and adventure with! My characters name is Jarnus.
I actually logged on to check them out when the advertised recently. While
the mud is not exactly outstanding, it does seem pretty original, with a
few nice features. I have my suspicions that part of the problem with lack
of players, is the who list only showing people you've met. Additionally,
as has been demonstrated in the past, you usually need a lot of players in
order to attract new players - and on Empire, when you type 'who' and get
something like (roughly, I can't remember the exact format):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following people are playing on EMPIRE!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Immortals:
None.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Players:
2 Humans
2 Dwarves
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get the impression of being alone, which usually puts new players off.
I would assume that people appear on the who list once you've met them, but
new players don't know anyone. There is no 'chat' or 'gossip' - and unless
the people are from roleplaying orientated muds they might not know about
the OOC channel.
The other problem I found was starting off - I started off in the middle
of town, and couldn't find much in the way of guidance. I wandered around
town killing dogs and cats, with no apparent objective.
Finally - and this is a personal point - I never play muds with rent. When
I first started mudding, I used to play the "marble.bu.edu" jedimud. My
character was an Antipaladin - level 26 - and unfortunately not so good at
fighting. I used to have to play for over an hour just to get enough money
to rent until the next day, and the pressure of HAVING to mud just to keep
my equipment has really put me off rent forever.
In general, Empire is a fairly good mud, with some not so well thought out
aspects. If it wishes to attract new players, it needs to work on helping
new players get started.
KaVir.
Scott Cowell
Pagan wrote in message <354172E8...@Reborn.com>...
>The only problem with the mud is, 6 is the most people i have seen on
>it.
>I think that sucks. I cant stand to play a mud and not have at least 50
>or
>so people on to interact with. That is why i have posted this. I think
>the
>mud has real potential to be a top mud. So i have brought it upon myself
>to endorse it. Please try it out so I will have someone to talk to and
>adventure with! My characters name is Jarnus.
shameless plug. check out Imperium at imperium.mudservices.com 9000. it is
the same code base with many of the ppl who worked on Empire thru the years.
we've got a devoted base of older players (20+ at peak times) and are
looking to get some fresh blood too. so if you like Empire, stop by and
check us out.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
206.245.158.223 9000
bonif...@hotmail.com
In article <35425B...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>
> Pagan wrote:
[snip]
I have been playing Empire for some time, and when I saw your post,
I thought I might clear some things.
> I actually logged on to check them out when the advertised recently. While
> the mud is not exactly outstanding, it does seem pretty original, with a
> few nice features.
That boils down to an ages old question about a "perfect" mud everyone
is trying to code/build/advertise, and my guess would be it is a matter
of personal preferences =). Though I am not an Imm there, I'm glad you
liked the MUD (at least, you didn't think it's worthless).
> I have my suspicions that part of the problem with lack
> of players, is the who list only showing people you've met. Additionally,
> as has been demonstrated in the past, you usually need a lot of players in
> order to attract new players - and on Empire, when you type 'who' and get
> something like (roughly, I can't remember the exact format):
> [almost exact format snipped]
> You get the impression of being alone, which usually puts new players off.
> I would assume that people appear on the who list once you've met them, but
> new players don't know anyone. There is no 'chat' or 'gossip' - and unless
> the people are from roleplaying orientated muds they might not know about
> the OOC channel.
I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
don't know people you are not "introed to". I have seen this feature
on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
players. The "intro system", IMO, encourages Role-Playing, and in general
it is sorta "more real", i.e., you can't know a name of the person that
just stabbed you or stole your sack, all you see is that an expressionless
man just put a dagger in your back. And yes, once you have someone's
into, they are showed in the "who" list.
As for global channels, there is "grapevine" in two major cities, which
is just zone-restricted chat. I have never seen global channels, and
personally, I hate gossip, chat and other interactive argument channels.
Just got sick of messages like "Poop gossips, 'I can't find an
outhouse!!!'. I like peace and quiet if you are far away from town =).
>
> The other problem I found was starting off - I started off in the middle
> of town, and couldn't find much in the way of guidance. I wandered around
> town killing dogs and cats, with no apparent objective.
>
I strongly believe that when your character is created, you are given a
set of some newbie gear in order not to wander around naked and scare
good citizens. And that set must include a map of the town you are
starting in. Also there is a big big line when your char is approved:
"READ HELP NEWBIE".
> Finally - and this is a personal point - I never play muds with rent. When
> I first started mudding, I used to play the "marble.bu.edu" jedimud. My
> character was an Antipaladin - level 26 - and unfortunately not so good at
> fighting. I used to have to play for over an hour just to get enough money
> to rent until the next day, and the pressure of HAVING to mud just to keep
> my equipment has really put me off rent forever.
Well, I don't have a big problem renting all stuff my characters have.
Basically for me it is sufficient to log on twice a week to make rent.
The rent can be difficult if you are used to make money runs to the
same zone of level much lower then yourself - there is not enough money in
there, of course. If you go to high-level zones all the time, rent is not a
big deal, really. And if you group (which means you can do even more higher
zones), rent is not a problem at all.
>
> In general, Empire is a fairly good mud, with some not so well thought out
> aspects. If it wishes to attract new players, it needs to work on helping
> new players get started.
>
The problem with playerbase is that newbies log on, stay for 10-15 minutes,
type "who" several times, and log off. At least, that's what I was told
by imms when asking about what do newbies do before leaving. If they
(newbies) run into a higher-lvel character, in majority of cases they
will be helped out (people who play there on regular basis, understand
the value of newbies very well), maybe given some better eq to start with,
probably some money to rent it with, etc. At least, that's what happened
to me several years ago.
Basically, if a newbie stays on-line long enough, she/he will run into
another player - higher level, or same newbie level. Most people leave
after 5 minutes of being alone. That way they never see other newbies
who logged on 5 minutes after they left, just to log off 5 minutes before
someone else logs on, etc. If they stick together, they're gonna be ok.
In general, Empire enviroment was created with the goal to represent
some RL conditions much closer then the majority of MUDs do (e.g.,
you are new into town, you have no clue about anything, you don't know
people's names, you have to stay somewhere at nights, etc, etc.)
As for rent, I think the major part of frustration people get from the rent
system comes from being unable to keep something far above their level. In
other words, the rent system plays the same role as level restriction on
eqipment. In lev-restrict version, you can't even quit with items above your
level. On Empire, you can rent them, but you have to pay
the fair price. Usually, if your eq is not WAY above your level, you
are pretty much able to make rent while grouping with friends and
just having fun. At least, that's what I was able to do for quite a
while.
> KaVir.
>
Regards,
Boni.
P.S. Again, I am not an imm, I just bothered to read "help newbie" when
I first started there.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Traxx
First. Empire was the first mud i played on for more than 5 minutes.
I got rather famous for death by wolf actually, hehe (an imm hung around in
chipmunk or something form and laughed his ass off).
It was very cool. I think they had problems in the past. I checked it out
a couple month's ago and got megalag.
Second.
Ok, why can't you imp's get this? If people log on for five minutes then
disappear forever... it's YOUR fault, not "dumb people". Empire gods i mean
you. Empire rocks, i'll probably be back now that i know it's up and running
right again. People don't want to have to completely learn a new system only
to find out your mud Sucks big weenie. Make the basics simpe, or simple to
learn.
Imm's in general: when a majority of your players are raising hell about X
(and it takes a LOT on an rp mud for people to bitch at the gods).. maybe
it's not the players? Maybe it's YOU?
A certain mud i play on now. A mud i loved for quite a while has gotten that
way. Imm's who don't give a shit. Or just think "gee my imm buddies like
it... all these bitchy whiney players are just idiots". It's starting that
spiral we've all seen. Mud gets going. Mud rocks. Massive player base. Imm's
get lazy/obnoxious/indifferent/egotistical.
Players start leavin. Imm's say "we don't need those assholes anyway! the
COOL! people are still here! all 5 of us!
Won't mention any names but the one i'm talking about is a BIG mud.
Aristotle@Threshold
In article <6i15ij$9...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Traxx" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
>Second.
>Ok, why can't you imp's get this? If people log on for five minutes then
>disappear forever... it's YOUR fault, not "dumb people". Empire gods i mean
>you.
I do not know what Empire is but the phenomenon you are talking about is not
necessarily "bad imms". In fact, it is quite often "dumb people".
People often login to muds, check the who list, and decide by the number of
people online if the game is any good. By that logic, if the most awesome mud
ever to exist opened tomorrow, nobody would ever play it.
Fortunately, there are enough players around who will actually check out new
muds beyond their who list. If not, I know Threshold could never have grown.
-Aristotle@Threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VISIT THRESHOLD ONLINE! High Fantasy Role Playing Game!
Player run clans, guilds, businesses, legal system, nobility, missile
combat, detailed religions, rich, detailed roleplaying environment.
http://www.threshold.counseltech.com
telnet://threshold.counseltech.com:23
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Scott Cowell
Traxx wrote in message <6i15ij$9...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>Ok, why can't you imp's get this? If people log on for five minutes then
>disappear forever... it's YOUR fault, not "dumb people". Empire gods i mean
>you. Empire rocks, i'll probably be back now that i know it's up and
running
>right again. People don't want to have to completely learn a new system
only
>to find out your mud Sucks big weenie. Make the basics simpe, or simple to
>learn.
From my experience on Empire, either a player was intrigued by what we had
from the start, or we'd be lucky to even get them to finish character
creation. Maybe there's better ways to attract players while keeping a
heavily descriptive/non-numeric/information hiding-type interface that we
had. I don't think the question is so much a 'new system' - we were
different, but in the end its a diku. Like most more advanced muds, a lot
of the complexity comes as you play more.
IMO most of our problems came from immortal interaction with players in a
negative sense. Players who were around long enough to get 10th level with
their character would then be driven off when they suddenly bumped up
against clan politics and got wiped out by well-equipped friends of imms.
It became a game of who's buddy-buddy with the gods this week. And I think
that killed it.
So we parted ways with certain ppl, and the core crew started up Imperium.
Founded on a principle of letting players play. So if you enjoyed Empire,
take 5 minutes and check us out. Maybe you'll say it still sucks. But I
think we're movin in the right direction.
anc@imperium
Imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
206.245.158.223 9000
Arlie Stephens
The following is about game design/attracting players in general, and
not Empire specifically; I haven't played there, and almost certainly
never will.
In article <6hts54$o3s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <bonif...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
>don't know people you are not "introed to". I have seen this feature
>on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
>players. The "intro system", IMO, encourages Role-Playing, and in general
>it is sorta "more real", i.e., you can't know a name of the person that
>just stabbed you or stole your sack, all you see is that an expressionless
>man just put a dagger in your back. And yes, once you have someone's
>into, they are showed in the "who" list.
Personally, I make a policy NOT to play games with introduction systems, even
though many of them are quite good otherwise. I want to be able to chat on
channels, and to be able to get answers to questions. And I want to be able
to *play*, not idle in town shops etc. in the hopes of meeting a non-newbie
so I can get a few questions answered. (It's almost certain that anywhere
a newbie can adventure won't have any higher level players in it, so the
newbie has to sit in town being bored, hoping they've picked a place people
frequent ... with a trigger for 'introduce me', since said newbie will
almost certainly be AFK or multi-mudding from boredom.)
There's also the other problem with introduction systems; in
the implementation I've seen, you can only remember a limited number
of players ... and the number is small enough, at least on the one CDlib mud
I tried to play, that you can have played for weeks, and still *usually* find
no one you know on "who" when you logon... and when you do find someone
you remember, they don't remember you, and so you still can't talk to them.
[snip]
>As for global channels, there is "grapevine" in two major cities, which
>is just zone-restricted chat. I have never seen global channels, and
>personally, I hate gossip, chat and other interactive argument channels.
>Just got sick of messages like "Poop gossips, 'I can't find an
>outhouse!!!'. I like peace and quiet if you are far away from town =).
Hmmm... I like systems where channels can be turned off and on by players.
Peace and quiet if you want it, and you don't have to wander half the mud
hoping to find a zone with people in it just to get any questions answered.
[snip]
>I strongly believe that when your character is created, you are given a
>set of some newbie gear in order not to wander around naked and scare
>good citizens. And that set must include a map of the town you are
>starting in. Also there is a big big line when your char is approved:
>"READ HELP NEWBIE".
Yes, good docs for newbies ... that the newbies can locate w/o being
clairvoyant ... are pretty much vital.
>> In general, Empire is a fairly good mud, with some not so well thought out
>> aspects. If it wishes to attract new players, it needs to work on helping
>> new players get started.
>>
>The problem with playerbase is that newbies log on, stay for 10-15 minutes,
>type "who" several times, and log off. At least, that's what I was told
>by imms when asking about what do newbies do before leaving. If they
>(newbies) run into a higher-lvel character, in majority of cases they
>will be helped out (people who play there on regular basis, understand
>the value of newbies very well), maybe given some better eq to start with,
>probably some money to rent it with, etc. At least, that's what happened
>to me several years ago.
>Basically, if a newbie stays on-line long enough, she/he will run into
>another player - higher level, or same newbie level. Most people leave
>after 5 minutes of being alone. That way they never see other newbies
>who logged on 5 minutes after they left, just to log off 5 minutes before
>someone else logs on, etc. If they stick together, they're gonna be ok.
But why should the newbie stay on long enough? If s/he wants to play a solo
game, s/he can play just about any single player game ... without netlag.
And why should the newbie need to be given gear and money in order to be
inclined to stay? Nothing turns me off a mud faster than a game where,
as a newbie, I need to beg for handouts because I can't manage anything
on my own.
Well, there's my set of strong opinions on the subject.
Clearly there are people who like these muds, and some of them are even
players (creators tend to be immune to introduce), since some of these muds
apparantly do have players, though you wouldn't know it as a newbie. :-)
---
Arlie
(Arlie Stephens ar...@netcom.com)
Kirby Krueger
Please, take this thread off of rec.games.mud.tiny and rec.games.mud.lp.
It is about a Diku mud, and by-definition, off topic for those two
groups. If you feel that the issues are relevant to other kinds of
muds, feel free to use rec.games.mud.admin, or even rec.games.mud.misc.
Thank you.
--
Kirby Krueger O- kir...@best.com
<*> "Most .sigs this small can't open their own jump gate."
Richard Woolcock
Arlie Stephens wrote:
>
> Personally, I make a policy NOT to play games with introduction systems,
> even though many of them are quite good otherwise. I want to be able to
> chat on channels, and to be able to get answers to questions. And I want
> to be able to *play*, not idle in town shops etc. in the hopes of meeting
> a non-newbie so I can get a few questions answered. (It's almost certain
[snip]
> There's also the other problem with introduction systems; in the
> implementation I've seen, you can only remember a limited number of
> players ... and the number is small enough, at least on the one CDlib mud
[snip]
The problems you describe are due to poor implementation, and not any fault
with introduction systems as such.
KaVir.
Traxx
I didn't mean for it to seem that whole flame was directed at Empire. It
wasn't.
I actually had fun with the gods there. Was never equipped up. Just me and
my
friendly gopher-imm wandering around feeding the wolves *cackle*
That was more a criticism of the 'elitist' part of the imm community who
feel that
somehow they are the attraction, rather than the players/atmosphere/design.
Traxx
Once again Aristotle, your mud is the exception and not the rule.
Seems there are 10,000 imm's out there who thinks you should have
to learn a new nifty way to go North rather than typing N. Too bad these
imm's don't bother adding classes/races/areas/commands instead.
David Skidmore
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Arlie Stephens wrote:
-The following is about game design/attracting players in general, and
That's good.
-In article <6hts54$o3s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <bonif...@hotmail.com> wrote:
-
-[snip]
->I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
->don't know people you are not "introed to". I have seen this feature
->on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
->players. The "intro system", IMO, encourages Role-Playing, and in general
->it is sorta "more real", i.e., you can't know a name of the person that
->just stabbed you or stole your sack, all you see is that an expressionless
->man just put a dagger in your back. And yes, once you have someone's
->into, they are showed in the "who" list.
-
-Personally, I make a policy NOT to play games with introduction systems, even
-though many of them are quite good otherwise. I want to be able to chat on
-channels, and to be able to get answers to questions.
I don't find public, global channels to be very good RP-wise. Although, yes,
the DIKU codebase is known for it's tendency to mindless killing, I would
prefer to see it be more role-play sensative. I'm using it as a codebase to
build an RP mud on because it's what I'm familiar with, and I don't have alot
of time to go and learn LPC, or some other interpreted code. As for asking
questions, if there are questions that are not answered in the opening
helpfiles, they prolly aren't IC questions(unless like most MUDs, the help is
about 8 months out of date :( ). If you want to know things like number of
players, etc, you'll just have to hang around, or perhaps find one of the
admins to help you.
- And I want to be able
-to *play*, not idle in town shops etc. in the hopes of meeting a non-newbie
-so I can get a few questions answered. (It's almost certain that anywhere
-a newbie can adventure won't have any higher level players in it, so the
-newbie has to sit in town being bored, hoping they've picked a place people
-frequent ... with a trigger for 'introduce me', since said newbie will
-almost certainly be AFK or multi-mudding from boredom.)
I prefer the way HarshLands does it, where it always uses a short desc. of
yourself and other players. THey can tell you their names if they feel like
it, but you also have keywords that match your short desc, so if you see:
A young, brown-eyed woman is sitting at a bar.
then you can type "look young", "look woman", "look brown", etc, to look at
her, as well as her name, like "look Alkiera". Of course, this means you have
to remember or write down a way to match names with short descs, but many of
us have to do this in real life as well. :)
-There's also the other problem with introduction systems; in
-the implementation I've seen, you can only remember a limited number
-of players ... and the number is small enough, at least on the one CDlib mud
-I tried to play, that you can have played for weeks, and still *usually* find
-no one you know on "who" when you logon... and when you do find someone
-you remember, they don't remember you, and so you still can't talk to them.
That stinks. I plan on a phone like system, where if you know someone's real
name you can call them if you have a phone/magical rock, etc. But if you
don't, then you can't do trans-global coimmunications. Perhaps I'll implement
radios of some kind for group comm.
-
-[snip]
-
->As for global channels, there is "grapevine" in two major cities, which
->is just zone-restricted chat. I have never seen global channels, and
->personally, I hate gossip, chat and other interactive argument channels.
->Just got sick of messages like "Poop gossips, 'I can't find an
->outhouse!!!'. I like peace and quiet if you are far away from town =).
-
-Hmmm... I like systems where channels can be turned off and on by players.
-Peace and quiet if you want it, and you don't have to wander half the mud
-hoping to find a zone with people in it just to get any questions answered.
In most places, real and virtual, there is one or more places where people
tend to float to when they aren't actively out doing something. As it
happens, this often is a bar or tavern in the starting city. It's prolly a
good idea to mention that such a place exists in the newbie help files
somewhere, and to give good directions to it's location.
-[snip]
-
->I strongly believe that when your character is created, you are given a
->set of some newbie gear in order not to wander around naked and scare
->good citizens. And that set must include a map of the town you are
->starting in. Also there is a big big line when your char is approved:
->"READ HELP NEWBIE".
-
-Yes, good docs for newbies ... that the newbies can locate w/o being
-clairvoyant ... are pretty much vital.
Definately.
-But why should the newbie stay on long enough?
because they want to MUD, or RP, which is often hard to do by oneself? Just a
thought.....
- If s/he wants to play a solo
-game, s/he can play just about any single player game ... without netlag.
True. But, so?
-And why should the newbie need to be given gear and money in order to be
-inclined to stay? Nothing turns me off a mud faster than a game where,
-as a newbie, I need to beg for handouts because I can't manage anything
-on my own.
He didn't say you _had_ to beg for handouts... Just that often, experienced
players will help out the newer players for a while, until they learn their
way around. This habit has kinda been lost in the Real World, but in our own
virtual worlds, perhaps we can start to revive this old practice of helping
those new in town.
-Well, there's my set of strong opinions on the subject.
-
-Clearly there are people who like these muds, and some of them are even
-players (creators tend to be immune to introduce), since some of these muds
-apparantly do have players, though you wouldn't know it as a newbie. :-)
----
-Arlie
Again, I think the "introduce" method you describe kinda stinks, but I agree
in principle.
--Raptor
Scott Cowell
Arlie Stephens wrote in message ...
>Personally, I make a policy NOT to play games with introduction systems,
even
>though many of them are quite good otherwise. I want to be able to chat on
>channels, and to be able to get answers to questions. And I want to be able
>to *play*, not idle in town shops etc. in the hopes of meeting a non-newbie
>so I can get a few questions answered. (It's almost certain that anywhere
>a newbie can adventure won't have any higher level players in it, so the
>newbie has to sit in town being bored, hoping they've picked a place people
>frequent ... with a trigger for 'introduce me', since said newbie will
>almost certainly be AFK or multi-mudding from boredom.)
>
>There's also the other problem with introduction systems; in
>the implementation I've seen, you can only remember a limited number
>of players ... and the number is small enough, at least on the one CDlib
mud
>I tried to play, that you can have played for weeks, and still *usually*
find
>no one you know on "who" when you logon... and when you do find someone
>you remember, they don't remember you, and so you still can't talk to them.
If you're looking for a social-style mud, obviously a more RP oriented
intro-style is not going to be for you. Usually such features as limited
communication go hand in hand. It's not a style that suits the broad
spectrum of (diku) players, who are breast-fed on 500 level stock muds.
But my experience is it adds a whole new dimension to a mud that puts no
hard-coded restrictions on player behavior (player killing/theiving/etc).
It makes you a lot more cautious about such activities when you have no idea
who your target it, how tough he/she is, and how many friends they have.
Plus never knowing if they're online and trying to hunt you down.
Introducing yourself to someone is not something done lightly.. they can see
when you're on, track you more easily, summon you.. not something very
palatable, especially if thievery is your profession.
The downside, as people have noted here - it can be tough on newbies. But
we're not trying to run a nursery school either. Sometimes people just have
to stick it out on their own the first few levels, until they can earn the
trust of other players.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
Aristotle@Threshold
Traxx, I might have missed where you replied to me but I didn't understand why
this was directed to me.
Perhaps I missed part of the thread. Could you explain what you meant here?
Thanks! =)
Traxx
too much coffee, not enouth sleep
Um.. hell if i know
btw just curious. What do you think the best stock to code a pure skill
based mud would be
Arlie Stephens
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.980427182318.1664B-100000@grace>,
>I don't find public, global channels to be very good RP-wise. Although, yes,
>the DIKU codebase is known for it's tendency to mindless killing, I would
>prefer to see it be more role-play sensative. I'm using it as a codebase to
>build an RP mud on because it's what I'm familiar with, and I don't have alot
>of time to go and learn LPC, or some other interpreted code. As for asking
>questions, if there are questions that are not answered in the opening
>helpfiles, they prolly aren't IC questions(unless like most MUDs, the help is
>about 8 months out of date :( ). If you want to know things like number of
>players, etc, you'll just have to hang around, or perhaps find one of the
>admins to help you.
Yes, as you can guess, I'm not a role player. I like a little bit of role
playing with my hack and slash ... but I'm playing for combat/advancement,
exploration/puzzles, and sociability. To the extent that role playing
detracts from these significantly, I don't role play. (I may go so far
as accepting some "in game" disadvantages to stay "in character", but when
the disadvantages get major, I stop role playing entirely.)
Frankly, I figure that if I wanted to role play, I'd go find a game focussed
on role play (e.g. many tiny derived games). However, I've tried them, and,
even when I've managed to actually meet people, I've soon gotten bored
and left. Emphatically not my idea of fun.
I also like my fellow players to be friendly. I don't want a world that
pits me against them, whether because some of us are "evil" or because of
some built in "war" or clan system. If that were my game, I'd log into
a straight PK mud.
This is, of course, a matter of preference.
As for "mindless killing" ... there's a big difference between diku-classic
(yawn) and interesting "mobs" that actually fight intelligently, react to
players, etc.. It's not "mindless" when I have to figure out how to kill
this particular individual NPC, and he summons friends, remembers my
habits of killing in his area (and reacts appropriately), and of course
behaves differently depending on his configuration.
With regard to questions: yes, my basic question is "tell me what's inaccurate
in the help, what ought to be in the (nonexistent) "help newbie" file, what
skills etc. are worth studying, and where it's worthwhile for a newbie
to adventure. And oh yeah ... explain to me the nonobvious syntax for
(e.g.) drinking, and whether I actually need to do anything about this
repetitive message about my character being thirsty".
>I prefer the way HarshLands does it, where it always uses a short desc. of
>yourself and other players. THey can tell you their names if they feel like
>it, but you also have keywords that match your short desc, so if you see:
>
>A young, brown-eyed woman is sitting at a bar.
>
>then you can type "look young", "look woman", "look brown", etc, to look at
>her, as well as her name, like "look Alkiera". Of course, this means you have
>to remember or write down a way to match names with short descs, but many of
>us have to do this in real life as well. :)
I don't do it well in RL. Even with names given, I tend to confuse players
with each other. And there aren't very many adjectives; especially, people
will pick from a limited subset of adjectives ... so there will be many
duplicates, and I'll constantly have to ask whether this is the person
I spoke to before. (It's even worse if I can't distinguish NPCs from players,
or if players can change their adjectives.)
This, of course, leads to players like me implementing work arounds ...
e.g. triggers to state their name regularly, since it isn't in their
description. (Of course, if they can set their long desc, they put it there.)
Unless, of course, you've managed to get a player base of role players who
like things this way ... in which case, you really want to *discourage*
newbies with my tastes as fast as possible.
[snip]
>In most places, real and virtual, there is one or more places where people
>tend to float to when they aren't actively out doing something. As it
>happens, this often is a bar or tavern in the starting city. It's prolly a
>good idea to mention that such a place exists in the newbie help files
>somewhere, and to give good directions to it's location.
I've noticed a tendency to have multiple newbie start locations based on
guild, race, etc.. (e.g. Batmud; a friend and I once spent half an hour
trying to find each other, after creating newbie characters ... we eventually
found out we'd have to do a LOT of exploring to locate each other, and
decided to find a mud where we could adventure together. But I digress.)
With multiple start locations, or with non-newbies not starting in the
same place as newbies (e.g. player owned rooms/castles/houses), the common
gathering point tends to disappear.
>- If s/he wants to play a solo
>-game, s/he can play just about any single player game ... without netlag.
>
>True. But, so?
My point was that, without global channels, s/he's going to be playing solo
unless s/he gets lucky, or is very patient.
>-And why should the newbie need to be given gear and money in order to be
>-inclined to stay? Nothing turns me off a mud faster than a game where,
>-as a newbie, I need to beg for handouts because I can't manage anything
>-on my own.
>
>He didn't say you _had_ to beg for handouts... Just that often, experienced
>players will help out the newer players for a while, until they learn their
>way around. This habit has kinda been lost in the Real World, but in our own
>virtual worlds, perhaps we can start to revive this old practice of helping
>those new in town.
Actually, nothing spoils a game faster than advancement being too easy.
In my ideal game, I can get equipment and money for myself, or with
a group of my peers ... and highbees don't give things to newbies or,
if they do, they scale the gift appropriately. Information is valuable
(what skills are useful, what to watch out for, etc.) but I want to acheive
things for myself, not be given them. (I also don't want to find myself
"farming" repetitively .. e.g. killing the same set of monsters for an
hour or 2 for cash to pay my next day's rent ...It's hard to find a balance
between these two extremes.)
Richard Woolcock
Arlie Stephens wrote:
>
[snip]
> I also like my fellow players to be friendly. I don't want a world that
> pits me against them, whether because some of us are "evil" or because of
> some built in "war" or clan system. If that were my game, I'd log into
> a straight PK mud.
[snip]
> As for "mindless killing" ... there's a big difference between diku-classic
> (yawn) and interesting "mobs" that actually fight intelligently, react to
> players, etc.. It's not "mindless" when I have to figure out how to kill
> this particular individual NPC, and he summons friends, remembers my
> habits of killing in his area (and reacts appropriately), and of course
> behaves differently depending on his configuration.
[snip]
I am curious about your distinction between player and mob...which of the
following would you fight?
* Boffo the exp mob. He repops, people kill him, he repops, people kill
him. *yawn*.
* Boffo the tough mob. He's just a normal mob, but with lots of hp, hit
and dam. Average fight takes several hours. *yawn*.
* Boffo the smart mob. He'll fight back, he'll come after you if you flee,
he'll kill your friends, steal your equipment, and torture your pet cat.
If you don't find him first, he'll be sure to find you.
* Boffo the really smart mob. He's programmed with complex AI, allowing
him to respond to basic stuff like a player would. He'll be nice to you
if you're nice to him.
* Boffo the imm-controlled mob. He's just a regular mob, except that one
of the imms has decided to switch into him. Now Boffo acts the same as
any player would.
* Bubba the newbie player. He is trying to find his way around mud school,
and isn't bothering anyone. You know you could easily beat him.
* Bubba the average player. He is wandering around, killing stuff. You
could probably beat him without much difficulty.
* Bubba the obnoxious player. He is shouting abusive stuff, and stealing
your kills. You could probably beat him.
* Bubba the mighty. He's mean, tough, and he's got a great sword that you
want. It would require all of your skill to beat him, but you know the
perfect trap to set.
* Bubba the afk/linkdead. You could kill him and he'd never even know it
was you! Good chance to restock your healing potions, too.
* Bubba the trigger bot. He's just wandering around, casting spells and
killing stuff. Laziness deserves punishment, and who better than you to
carry out the punishment?
Now imagine an introduction system, so mobs and players look the same.
Imagine that players don't necessarily appear on the who list, and that
dead mobs don't come back (instead, the mud spawns new types of mob).
Is that goblin standing in the room a linkdead player, or just a regular
mob? Is the dwarf charging around town a spec_prog or a bot? Was that
guy you grouped with earlier really a player, or was it the imp's new AI
mob?
You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
question to you is: Why?
KaVir.
Steven M Peterson
Richard Woolcock (Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM) wrote:
: Pagan wrote:
: >
: > The mud is called EMPIRE.
: [snip features]
: > The only problem with the mud is, 6 is the most people i have seen on
: > it. I think that sucks. I cant stand to play a mud and not have at least
: > 50 or so people on to interact with. That is why i have posted this. I
: > think the mud has real potential to be a top mud. So i have brought it
: > upon myself to endorse it. Please try it out so I will have someone to
: > talk to and adventure with! My characters name is Jarnus.
: In general, Empire is a fairly good mud, with some not so well thought out
: aspects. If it wishes to attract new players, it needs to work on helping
: new players get started.
Well I've been around Empire for some time now and I've found Empire to be
the best MUD I've ever seen and getting "better" everyday. The one huge
problem with this is that it is only the "best game out there" in theory.
When a lot of the major features were implemented, they were put in so
that the features only work out "awesome" when there is a large player
base. Clans, introductions, practicing system expect a large amount of
players online or they don't work out quite right. For introductions,if
there were a lot of players you would see players walking in and out of
rooms around you and be able to introduce yourself to them, etc.. When
there are no players around or very few, you don't see anyone around and
the whole system starts to fall apart. With Practicing, we figured people
would ask other players where to find certain teachers or a tome. This
however did not work out very well when there are only 8 people on
and 6 are on the other contient, there is not much help for you and again
this system falls apart.
Unfortunately low player base breeds low player base. We used to have a
good number of players, but found they started to get fed up with the
immortal/mortal interaction going on as Anc mentioned in prior messages.
Recently we've changed several things to attempt to make Empire more
newbie friendly, but again as someone else said we aren't running a
Nursery School. Instead we run a very challenging and realistic MUD.
Some love it and some find it much too difficult, but most everyone finds
it pretty impressive, I think.
In today's Empire we feel we have gotten rid of the bad apples and are now
going to try to move on to become not only a great mud, but a very popular
one too.
Sten
emp...@cis.clarion.edu
cis.clarion.edu 4000
Richard Woolcock
Steven M Peterson wrote:
>
> Well I've been around Empire for some time now and I've found Empire to be
> the best MUD I've ever seen and getting "better" everyday. The one huge
> problem with this is that it is only the "best game out there" in theory.
And here, ladies and gentleman, we have a classic case of 'Stock Syndrome'.
This poor victim, having been exposed to countless stock muds, has eventually
lapsed into a mental state known as 'settling', convinced that the 'fairly
reasonable' mud he plays is in fact the best out there.
KaVir.
Holly Sommer
Richard Woolcock wrote:
: And here, ladies and gentleman, we have a classic case of
: countless stock muds, has eventually lapsed into a mental
: state known as 'settling', convinced that the 'fairly
: reasonable' mud he plays is in fact the best out there.
I guess I am reading his line differently than you are:
Steven M Peterson wrote:
: The one huge problem with this is that it is only the
: "best game out there" in theory.
My take on this claim is that he thinks it has the potential
to be "the best game out there". Ie: theory vs. practice.
Of course, there is no best game, but I think there's a
difference between seeing the potential for that, in
theory, and claiming, in fact, for it to BE the best. :)
-Holly, contentious
Katrina McClelan
In <3546A5...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> writes:
>And here, ladies and gentleman, we have a classic case of 'Stock Syndrome'.
>This poor victim, having been exposed to countless stock muds, has eventually
>lapsed into a mental state known as 'settling', convinced that the 'fairly
>reasonable' mud he plays is in fact the best out there.
I think the solution to stock is stock... as in stocks. Lets take all the
people that run stock muds and put them in stocks for a week or so. :)
Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
an oxymoron?
-Kat
Richard Woolcock
Holly Sommer wrote:
>
> Richard Woolcock wrote:
>
> : And here, ladies and gentleman, we have a classic case of
> : 'Stock Syndrome'. This poor victim, having been exposed to
> : countless stock muds, has eventually lapsed into a mental
> : state known as 'settling', convinced that the 'fairly
> : reasonable' mud he plays is in fact the best out there.
>
>
> Steven M Peterson wrote:
>
> : The one huge problem with this is that it is only the
> : "best game out there" in theory.
Try reading the line before it ;)
: Well I've been around Empire for some time now and I've found Empire to be
: the best MUD I've ever seen and getting "better" everyday.
KaVir.
Steven M Peterson
Holly Sommer (hso...@micro.ti.com) wrote:
: Richard Woolcock wrote:
:
: : And here, ladies and gentleman, we have a classic case of
: : 'Stock Syndrome'. This poor victim, having been exposed to
: : countless stock muds, has eventually lapsed into a mental
: : state known as 'settling', convinced that the 'fairly
: : reasonable' mud he plays is in fact the best out there.
: I guess I am reading his line differently than you are:
: Steven M Peterson wrote:
:
: : The one huge problem with this is that it is only the
: : "best game out there" in theory.
This was supposed to be a knock on Empire, not a boast:)
I admit though, i could of worded it differently.
: My take on this claim is that he thinks it has the potential
: to be "the best game out there". Ie: theory vs. practice.
To me, it IS a great mud in theory. We may need to work on some things to
be a bit more practical if we want to do very well. This is something we
have been doing lately, however the problem with this is that we have
found that making things "more newbie friendly" also means making the game
less of a challenge at times. So we have been trying to come up with
features that not only make the game more playable, but doesn't subtract
from the challenge of the game.
So anyways sorry if I seemed to boast we are the best MUD out there. We
surely aren't, i do think with an addition of players we can make use of
all our features implemented as something good, and not something that
subtracts from the MUD.
Sten
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Empire
emp...@cis.clarion.edu
cis.clarion.edu 4000
Steven M Peterson
: Try reading the line before it ;)
If you take anything out of context of the whole thing its gonna sound
funny. *chuckle*
Sten
Holly Sommer
Katrina McClelan wrote:
: Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks
: "Excelent DikuMud" is an oxymoron?
Naw, I think of it more as a typo. But... I don't stoop
to that level of flaming ;)
-Holly
Holly Sommer
Richard Woolcock wrote:
: Try reading the line before it ;)
: : Well I've been around Empire for some time now and I've
: :found Empire to be the best MUD I've ever seen and getting
: :"better" everyday.
Ah well. I see where you have a case. I tend to not treat something
stated as an opinion to be a factual statement, though :) Here,
have a beer ;)
-Holly
Richard Woolcock
Steven M Peterson wrote:
>
> : Try reading the line before it ;)
> funny. *chuckle*
Hmmm okay I *did* misread the original post, sorry.
KaVir.
Scott Cowell
Steven M Peterson wrote in message <6i5b38$4...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
>When a lot of the major features were implemented, they were put in so
>that the features only work out "awesome" when there is a large player
>base. Clans, introductions, practicing system expect a large amount of
>players online or they don't work out quite right. For introductions,if
>there were a lot of players you would see players walking in and out of
>rooms around you and be able to introduce yourself to them, etc.. When
>there are no players around or very few, you don't see anyone around and
>the whole system starts to fall apart. With Practicing, we figured people
>would ask other players where to find certain teachers or a tome. This
>however did not work out very well when there are only 8 people on
>and 6 are on the other contient, there is not much help for you and again
>this system falls apart.
The system does not "fall apart" at low player counts. I don't care how
many people play, either people like the system or they don't. The only
critical thing with the system as a whole is grouping, it is not a
solo-friendly system. Just at low player counts you end up with a
tight-knit group of people, who may or may not be eager to let new people
in. With more people, you just end up with several tight-knit groups.
Since I've been through the high times and the low times I speak from
experience. It wasn't much easier for newbies when we had 60 player peaks.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
John Adelsberger
Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
: Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
: an oxymoron?
I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
--
John J. Adelsberger III
j...@umr.edu
"Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
- Ayn Rand
Michael Glosenger
John Adelsberger (j...@ultra3.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
: Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
:
: : Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
: : an oxymoron?
:
: I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
:
: Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
I can think of many other mudbases that suck more for actual real-life
playing and enjoyment of the game.
Piotr Banski
Richard Woolcock (Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM) wrote:
[BIG snip]
: Now imagine an introduction system, so mobs and players look the same.
: Imagine that players don't necessarily appear on the who list, and that
: dead mobs don't come back (instead, the mud spawns new types of mob).
:
: Is that goblin standing in the room a linkdead player, or just a regular
: mob? Is the dwarf charging around town a spec_prog or a bot? Was that
: guy you grouped with earlier really a player, or was it the imp's new AI
: mob?
:
: You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
: question to you is: Why?
What you described in your post was very much the kind of impression an
observer inside the mud gets. But there is a bit more to it, namely that
some of those objects have real people attached to them and even if from
inside the mud the two kinds of livings are indistiguishable, you still
know that they may differ. Surely, not everyone will care, but some do,
maybe partially by the old 'don't do to others what you don't want done
to yourself' rule (where 'others' do _not_ include mud-generated mobs, of
course - that's the fun side of it ;).
Those real people invest in their characters in terms of time, feelings
(and cash, some of them), and on a mud on which pk is allowed but not in
any way essential (I think this qualification is necessary, cause it does
have a bearing on what sort of people sit on the other side of the link),
some players don't want to ruin the fun for others, cause they have an
idea of what it would mean to them, and although the mud allows for pk,
they simply don't want to pk (and be pk-ed). And then although (let's
assume) thay can't distinguish a mob from a player at first sight, they
will try hard to identify the living cause they won't want to pkill.
This may be close to what Arlie meant, I believe.
Just my 0.02 gold coins :)
Piotr
Chris Kerr
John Adelsberger (j...@ultra3.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
: Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
: : Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
: : an oxymoron?
: I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
: Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
An opinion apparently headless of the fact that they are leading the
pack.
[snip]
: "Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
: - Ayn Rand
So far its been the opposite.
--
"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get
yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is
to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding
fathers used in the great struggle for independence."
Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)
Aristotle@Threshold
In article <6i4t95$s...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Traxx" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
>btw just curious. What do you think the best stock to code a pure skill
>based mud would be
The only thing a stock base is "best" for is if its on a diskette and you can
use the diskette as drink coaster.
-Aristotle@Threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VISIT THRESHOLD ONLINE! High Fantasy Role Playing Game!
Player run clans, guilds, businesses, legal system, nobility, missile
combat, detailed religions, rich, detailed roleplaying environment.
http://www.threshold-rpg.com
telnet://threshold-rpg.com:23
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Aristotle@Threshold
In article <6i6ikj$aem$1...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>, ban...@indiana.edu (Piotr Banski) wrote:
>Richard Woolcock (Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM) wrote:
>[BIG snip]
>
>: question to you is: Why?
>
>What you described in your post was very much the kind of impression an
>idea of what it would mean to them
<massive sarcasm>
ROFL! Oh my goodness. The very thought that mudders wouldn't like PK because
they don't want to "hurt the feelings" of other players is absolutely
hilarious! Oh yes, the internet has definitely shown us that people are so
naturally kind to each other. Thats why there is no flaming or insulting on
muds or in usenet
</massive sarcasm>
I think the reason some people who like killing clever mobs but dont like
killing players is because they are frightened wimps. They know if it gets too
hard for them against the mob, they can always leave. The mob won't decide to
make it their life's goal to hunt them down and kill them. Even if you code a
mob to chase after a player, it still won't compare to a real life person.
Aristotle@Threshold
In article <ckerrEs...@netcom.com>, ck...@netcom.com (Chris Kerr) wrote:
>John Adelsberger (j...@ultra3.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
>: Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
>
>: : Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
>: : an oxymoron?
>
>: I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
>
>: Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
>
>An opinion apparently headless of the fact that they are leading the
>pack.
So you are saying that AOL is the best ISP?
Great argument bozo.
Russ Taylor
In article <6i54ds$bev$9...@supernews.com>, thre...@threshold-rpg.com
(Aristotle@Threshold) wrote:
>In article <ckerrEs...@netcom.com>, ck...@netcom.com (Chris Kerr) wrote:
>>John Adelsberger (j...@ultra3.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
>>: Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
>>
>>: : Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
>>: : an oxymoron?
>>
>>: I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
>>
>>: Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
>>
>>An opinion apparently headless of the fact that they are leading the
>>pack.
>
>So you are saying that AOL is the best ISP?
>
>Great argument bozo.
>
>-Aristotle@Threshold
>
Where Dikus really sign is in entertainment: they are fun to play. This
something that cannot be said, sadly, of a large number of Lp muds. One
of the biggest problems is the quest-centered gaming of many Lp muds.
Frankly, it was boring in Zork, and it's boring in the Lps that still do
it. Ever notice that you can buy 20 or 30 infocom games for $10 now?
Taking a look at my own code base, ROM, I can fairly point out some of the
reasons it's gotten so popular:
#1) Easy to set up and play
#2) Lots of avenues for global communication
#3) No player killing in the stock code
#4) Very user-friendly interface
Sure, it's not the world's most challenging mud to play. It's not
supposed to be. It's supposed to take roughly 200 hours to "finish" the
game, good players can do it in half or less (the game adjusts to this,
and makes advancement slower for the quick-to-level). It is pretty much
what I wanted -- a mud that's designed to be social and fun, and let the
other elements (i.e. roleplay) take care of themselves.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Hey, it don't split up even any more" -- Bill
john.an...@worldnet.att.net
>
> I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
> on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
The fact that an imm clearly wrote this and then flat out lied several
times
in saying they weren't an imm shows right up front what you are in for
if you
log on. Anyone can get an account at hotmail (in fact you can have
several).
This persons answers clearly indicate a working knowledge of the mud's
inner
code, certainly something a mortal would not have. In fact this was
written by
their head coder astafas. Perhaps you should have considered that only
people
that have been there for years would know who the expressionless man was
before
you tried to decieve everyone on this newsgroup. If they are going to
lie to you
now just to get you there, what do you think will happen once you've put
in time
to build up a character there? Shameful. Try imperium.mudservices.com
port 9000
instead. There you will find all of the features without any of the imm
nonsense.
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
thre...@threshold-rpg.com (Aristotle@Threshold) writes:
>ban...@indiana.edu (Piotr Banski) wrote:
>>Richard Woolcock (Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM) wrote:
>>[BIG snip]
>>: You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
>>: question to you is: Why?
>>What you described in your post was very much the kind of impression an
>>some players don't want to ruin the fun for others, cause they have an
>>idea of what it would mean to them
><massive sarcasm>
>ROFL! Oh my goodness. The very thought that mudders wouldn't like PK because
>they don't want to "hurt the feelings" of other players is absolutely
>hilarious!
I hope your web page and mud is better than this, the <massive sarcasm>
tag belongs here, not above.
>Oh yes, the internet has definitely shown us that people are so
>naturally kind to each other. Thats why there is no flaming or insulting on
>muds or in usenet
></massive sarcasm>
>
>I think the reason some people who like killing clever mobs but dont like
>killing players is because they are frightened wimps.
As I noted in another thread, you demonstrate no capability to imagine
somebody with a perspective different from your own.
Arlie Stephens
In article <35469...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>Arlie Stephens wrote:
I've left the following comment in, because it's a short summary of
my PK logic.
>> I also like my fellow players to be friendly. I don't want a world that
>> pits me against them, whether because some of us are "evil" or because of
>> some built in "war" or clan system. If that were my game, I'd log into
>> a straight PK mud.
[snip]
>I am curious about your distinction between player and mob...which of the
>following would you fight?
I'd kill any of them that didn't have human beings behind them, or that were,
in effect, there to be killed ... i.e., if killing the character is likely
to upset a human being, I won't do it unless I have really good reason
to want to upset this particular individual. (And even then, I still
probably won't do it; there are probably mitigating circumstances I don't
know about, and it's likely better to avoid than to seek vengeance ...
though I'll PK if it seems like the only way to control some louse's
problem behaviour, on an otherwise desireable environment.)
Hmmm... actually, when I look the individual examples here more closely,
there are more details to my preferences.
>* Boffo the exp mob. He repops, people kill him, he repops, people kill
> him. *yawn*.
That's what he's for.
>* Boffo the tough mob. He's just a normal mob, but with lots of hp, hit
> and dam. Average fight takes several hours. *yawn*.
Several hours? He better have something to make it worth my while ... and
even then, I'd probably only do it once. Writing 'bots to do my boring
fighting for me isn't my game either :-)
>* Boffo the smart mob. He'll fight back, he'll come after you if you flee,
> he'll kill your friends, steal your equipment, and torture your pet cat.
> If you don't find him first, he'll be sure to find you.
Sounds like fun.
>* Boffo the really smart mob. He's programmed with complex AI, allowing
> him to respond to basic stuff like a player would. He'll be nice to you
> if you're nice to him.
Depends if I'm feeling role play ish. I might leave him alone. I'll certainly
try to query him for info, training, etc. before taking him out.
>* Boffo the imm-controlled mob. He's just a regular mob, except that one
> of the imms has decided to switch into him. Now Boffo acts the same as
> any player would.
Theoretically, the human being won't mind if I kill the mob; it's what it's
for. In practice, maybe not. Also... if I wanted to be playing vs players,
I'd be on a pure PK mud. I might kill this one though, but he's not my
preferred target.
>* Bubba the newbie player. He is trying to find his way around mud school,
> and isn't bothering anyone. You know you could easily beat him.
Not only won't I kill this one, but I might just kill a player I noticed
attacking the newbie.
>* Bubba the average player. He is wandering around, killing stuff. You
> could probably beat him without much difficulty.
No.
>* Bubba the obnoxious player. He is shouting abusive stuff, and stealing
> your kills. You could probably beat him.
If there's no other convenient way to deal with him. /gag works wonders
for abusive comments, and it's probably fairly easy to lose him ... that
sort of louse rarely explores.
>* Bubba the mighty. He's mean, tough, and he's got a great sword that you
> want. It would require all of your skill to beat him, but you know the
> perfect trap to set.
No.
>* Bubba the afk/linkdead. You could kill him and he'd never even know it
> was you! Good chance to restock your healing potions, too.
No.
>* Bubba the trigger bot. He's just wandering around, casting spells and
> killing stuff. Laziness deserves punishment, and who better than you to
> carry out the punishment?
No.
>Now imagine an introduction system, so mobs and players look the same.
>Imagine that players don't necessarily appear on the who list, and that
>dead mobs don't come back (instead, the mud spawns new types of mob).
>
>Is that goblin standing in the room a linkdead player, or just a regular
>mob? Is the dwarf charging around town a spec_prog or a bot? Was that
>guy you grouped with earlier really a player, or was it the imp's new AI
>mob?
Sounds like a place I wouldn't play.
>You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
>question to you is: Why?
I prefer cooperative games, and don't like doing things that are likely
to upset other people.
Arlie Stephens
In article <6i54bb$bev$8...@supernews.com>,
Aristotle@Threshold <thre...@threshold-rpg.com> wrote:
><massive sarcasm>
>ROFL! Oh my goodness. The very thought that mudders wouldn't like PK because
>they don't want to "hurt the feelings" of other players is absolutely
>hilarious! Oh yes, the internet has definitely shown us that people are so
>naturally kind to each other. Thats why there is no flaming or insulting on
>muds or in usenet
></massive sarcasm>
There clearly *are* people who get their jollies from abusing others, and/or
simply don't especially care about other people's feelings. There are also
otherwise reasonable individuals who lose their tempers.
What you don't seem to realize is that there are also OTHER types of people
on the net. ... and if I weren't one of them, this posting would be primarily
composed of flamage directed at you. Frankly, it very nearly was a flame;
I don't appreciate being insulted.
>I think the reason some people who like killing clever mobs but dont like
>killing players is because they are frightened wimps. They know if it gets too
>hard for them against the mob, they can always leave. The mob won't decide to
>make it their life's goal to hunt them down and kill them. Even if you code a
>mob to chase after a player, it still won't compare to a real life person.
I'm sure this is a factor for some players. I wouldn't use the pejoratives
you use to describe it, however.
Some people like to "go for broke"; others like to make small predictable
gains. The latter type will prefer a reasonable chance to change their mind
about killing a particular victim if he proves tougher than expected; an
ongoing grudge could drive them off the game entirely, which would be a drag.
You seem to prefer the wild gambler style, which is fine for you.
I've noticed that some folks of that style don't understand the other style
at all; this is also true in reverse.
It might be an idea, especially if adminning a mud, to observe people
more closely rather than reasoning based on your presumption that all
people are just like you. On the other hand, it's your mud; if you want
to attract risk-lovers and repel the slow progress types, it's your
perogative :-)
Just expect to be flamed regularly by those who don't like that style :-)
----
Arlie
(Arlie Stephens ar...@netcom.com)
Holly Sommer
Aristotle@Threshold wrote:
: So you are saying that AOL is the best ISP?
While the age-old view that "more doesn't necessarily mean
better" does hold water, there is something to be said for
sheer numbers of people playing a game. It says: people
like it.
Now, before you trot out the "but they only think they
like it because they haven't seen the light and been
elevated to a higher appreciation of MU* game-playing,
which would inveitably happen if they tried my MUD"
argument... if they didn't like Diku, would they continue
playing on it?
Lots of imp-types are idealistic, and believe in the
nobility of raising the standards through diversity and
breaking out of old molds. This is good and well, but
you can't expect the masses to take to it immediately,
and pronounce the old school dead.
The most popular codebases will remain as such for
the simple reasons that they are:
a) established
b) easy to play (which is the reason for a))
c) easy to set up (another reason for a))
d) easy to find (quantity begats quantity)
Is this saying that we should just fold up our Tents of
Innovation and stop trying to push ahead? Only if you
want to be content running a server whose primary
appeal is that it is "well-known."
Otherwise, keep doing what you are doing, but don't be
so arrogant as to think that quality is EVERYTHING and
quantity is nothing.
-Holly
ren...@hotmail.com
In article <6i7avd$c...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
come on. how can you possibly KNOW who posted this? you have ESP? anyway
don't pick on astafas. he is empire. the other imms are a great great help as
well. he is an extremely fair and diplomatic person.
empire is a friendly, fun community where mudders can go and enjoy some of the
best diku coding around. there are so many features there. i play two
mid-level characters. it was not easy getting to where i am and i made many
mistakes along the way, but i had a lot of fun doing it. if you think
something should be added, write a message or an idea and they'll most likely
do it. just the other day a new feature was added where you can buy pens and
pencils and write little notes and do whatever you want with them. it isn't a
major feature, but it was a response to an idea. THAT is the reason i like
empire.
imperium is in the stone ages. sorry guys ive been there. being on alone,
seriously no one else was on for one whole hour last night. come on... night
is when muds really fill up. at least some people play then. i was an old
player before the great split with empire and imperium and imperium players
just dont like change. if they did, they wouldn't have left. so if you want
a mud that is going to be the same forever, go to imperium. really it is a
nice place. just lacks players. if you want an ever-changing, ever-updated
mud, go to empire. it is stunning in my opinion.
kerona
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <6i54bb$bev$8...@supernews.com>,
thre...@threshold-rpg.com (Aristotle@Threshold) wrote:
> I think the reason some people who like killing clever mobs but dont like
> killing players is because they are frightened wimps. They know if it gets
too
> hard for them against the mob, they can always leave. The mob won't decide
to
> make it their life's goal to hunt them down and kill them. Even if you code
a
> mob to chase after a player, it still won't compare to a real life person.
I'll ignore the rather insulting tone of your post, because I'm interested in
only a very particular part of your argument. I've never been a big-pk'er,
never played on pk muds, and never saw much fun in pk-ing for pk-ing's sake.
All arguments about whether pk is good or bad aside, I'm interested in
opinions about *why* pk is perceived as more challenging than regular mobs.
I'll admit to an ulterior motive in this: I'm interested in a behavioral
model for NPCs that more closely mimics the intelligent actions of players.
Already I'm planning on NPCs that team up and protect each other, cast
spells/heal party members, use the best equipment they find, wander in a
variable pattern, run away when low on hp, and chase opponents who do the
same. I'm also thinking about variably aggressive monsters, who may attack
players/other monsters when it's in character, or can be set to the
'intelligent' option - 'considering' the abilities of an opponent and only
attacking if you think you can take him. Other than these ideas, are there
other factors that make pk more dangerous than regular monsters?
Richard Woolcock
Piotr Banski wrote:
>
[snipped my stuff about PK]
> What you described in your post was very much the kind of impression an
> observer inside the mud gets. But there is a bit more to it, namely that
> some of those objects have real people attached to them and even if from
> inside the mud the two kinds of livings are indistiguishable, you still
Yet killing link-dead players or trigger-run bots is still considered PK,
while killing an imm controlled mob is not.
> know that they may differ. Surely, not everyone will care, but some do,
> maybe partially by the old 'don't do to others what you don't want done
> to yourself' rule (where 'others' do _not_ include mud-generated mobs, of
> course - that's the fun side of it ;).
But *why* does it not include mobs? What if those mobs used real tactics
and didn't repop if they died? What if the mobs came hunting after YOU,
rather than the other way around?
> Those real people invest in their characters in terms of time, feelings
> (and cash, some of them), and on a mud on which pk is allowed but not in
> any way essential (I think this qualification is necessary, cause it does
> have a bearing on what sort of people sit on the other side of the link),
> some players don't want to ruin the fun for others, cause they have an
> idea of what it would mean to them, and although the mud allows for pk,
> they simply don't want to pk (and be pk-ed). And then although (let's
> assume) thay can't distinguish a mob from a player at first sight, they
> will try hard to identify the living cause they won't want to pkill.
I understand what you are saying, but I am still unable to pinpoint any
particular difference between PK and MK other than "they're a player".
> This may be close to what Arlie meant, I believe.
I am just curious - I am trying to blur the distinction between player and
mob on my mud.
KaVir.
Richard Woolcock
john.an...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> >
> > I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
> > don't know people you are not "introed to". I have seen this feature
> > on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
> > players. The "intro system", IMO, encourages Role-Playing, and in general
> > it is sorta "more real", i.e., you can't know a name of the person that
> > just stabbed you or stole your sack, all you see is that an expressionless
> > man just put a dagger in your back. And yes, once you have someone's
> > into, they are showed in the "who" list.
>
> The fact that an imm clearly wrote this and then flat out lied several
> times in saying they weren't an imm shows right up front what you are in
> for if you log on. Anyone can get an account at hotmail (in fact you can
> have several).
How did an imm 'clearly' write it?
> This persons answers clearly indicate a working knowledge of the mud's
> inner code, certainly something a mortal would not have. In fact this was
*boggle* how so? They mentioned nothing that most players wouldn't know -
and I had already worked out most of the stuff they mentioned in the few
minutes I was there. Your answer clearly indicates a LACK of knowledge of
the workings of most muds.
> written by their head coder astafas. Perhaps you should have considered
> that only people that have been there for years would know who the
> expressionless man was before you tried to decieve everyone on this
> newsgroup. If they are going to lie to you now just to get you there, what
> do you think will happen once you've put in time to build up a character
> there? Shameful. Try [ADDRESS SNIPPED] instead. There you will find all of
> the features without any of the imm nonsense.
I'll tell you what is shameful; slagging off another mud to try and promote
your own. I guess the choice comes down to this:
1) A mud where - POSSIBLY - the imms don't like to reveal themselves to the
players, preferring to stay in the background (IMO this is what most imms
*should* do, particularly in a RP mud), or:
2) A mud where - judging by your post - the imms try and tell you that their
mud is great because the competition sucks. A mud where the imms jump to
conclusions and make assumptions about people without even bothering to
find out the facts first.
I know which mud I'd rather play, and its not yours.
KaVir.
Richard Woolcock
John Adelsberger wrote:
>
> Katrina McClelan (kit...@directcheck.aries.net) wrote:
>
> : Back to the original, am I the only one that thinks "Excelent DikuMud" is
> : an oxymoron?
>
> I'm insulted. Do you not READ my posts?:-)
>
> Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
Now now, you can do better than that. Such a closed-minded approach ill
becomes you.
KaVir.
Steven M Peterson
john.an...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
: >
: > I believe the way it works is called an "introduction system", i.e., you
: > don't know people you are not "introed to". I have seen this feature
: > on at least one another mud, and that one had pretty good number if
: > players. The "intro system", IMO, encourages Role-Playing, and in general
: > it is sorta "more real", i.e., you can't know a name of the person that
: > just stabbed you or stole your sack, all you see is that an expressionless
: > man just put a dagger in your back. And yes, once you have someone's
: > into, they are showed in the "who" list.
Yes, this player has an intimate understanding of how things work. That
comes from two years of playing one MUD. It does not mean they are
an imm, or even close to being an imm.
I know some very low level characters on Empire that actually know quite a
bit about Empire and its history/features and they aren't imm/imps either.
: The fact that an imm clearly wrote this and then flat out lied several
: times
: in saying they weren't an imm shows right up front what you are in for
: if you
: log on. Anyone can get an account at hotmail (in fact you can have
: several).
: This persons answers clearly indicate a working knowledge of the mud's
: inner
: code, certainly something a mortal would not have. In fact this was
: written by
: their head coder astafas. Perhaps you should have considered that only
Uhh, no its not...:)
I know who wrote it an they aren't an imm and never have been an imm.
: people
: that have been there for years would know who the expressionless man was
Actually everyone seems to know who "the expressionless man" was after
imms on imperium gave out all that info along with all other known pkers
(except there own), which in my own opinion was kinda wrong.
: before
: you tried to decieve everyone on this newsgroup. If they are going to
: lie to you
Its not a good idea to jump to conclusions. However it does become rather
humorous for others when they see you make a fool of yourself.
: instead. There you will find all of the features without any of the imm
: nonsense.
Hey! thats my line. Its funny we both have same but opposite feelings on
this. Each feeling they are better off now that the "cheating imps" gone.
Also I find it hard to believe that the imp staff on Imperium is actually
willing to stop cheating just because you guys got a new mud. i may be
wrong though. You won't find cheating on Empire... unlike old
Empire/Imperium, any cheating at all will be dealt with harshly. After
playing a MUD run by Imperium Imps(referred to as old Empire/Imperium), i
found that if the imms are gonna cheat there really is no use playing a
MUD like that. So if you are looking for a highly inflated world of high
level characters with super eq coupled with cheating Imps, play Imperium.
Otherwise I'd like to suggest Empire, where you won't have the super eq
easily gettable, but you also won't have cheating.
Anyways, in referrence to the thing about lying or whatever, please get
your story straight next time. Thanks.
Sten
BTW- for those of you confused on some of the stuff i posted,
john.an...@worldnet.att.net is/was Ma, an Implementor on Imperium.
I could be wrong.. someone could be masquerading as him.
John Adelsberger
Holly Sommer (hso...@micro.ti.com) wrote:
: While the age-old view that "more doesn't necessarily mean
: better" does hold water, there is something to be said for
: sheer numbers of people playing a game. It says: people
: like it.
Agreed. They like it. This sounds like it says more than it actually
does, but they like it.
: Now, before you trot out the "but they only think they
: like it because they haven't seen the light and been
: elevated to a higher appreciation of MU* game-playing,
: which would inveitably happen if they tried my MUD"
: argument... if they didn't like Diku, would they continue
: playing on it?
How many people do you know who would play the original Dikumud today,
given the alternatives? Probably not many. They might enjoy it if they
did, but they'd prefer the newer derivatives. Similarly, there are muds
far and away beyond what any Diku has ever done. Their day will come.
: Otherwise, keep doing what you are doing, but don't be
: so arrogant as to think that quality is EVERYTHING and
: quantity is nothing.
Everything and nothing in this context are terms of evaluation. In
_my_ evaluation, quantity is nothing. I'm not deluded into thinking
everyone has to agree with me, but it seems that most of the quantity
crowd _is_ deluded in this manner.
Diku sucks. The game may be enjoyable to many people; the original Atari
video game system is still enjoyable to play - this doesn't mean it is
anything but pathetic by modern standards.
--
John J. Adelsberger III
j...@umr.edu
"Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
- Ayn Rand
John Adelsberger
Michael Glosenger (glos...@mail.oit.osshe.edu) wrote:
: John Adelsberger (j...@ultra3.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
: : Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
: I can think of many other mudbases that suck more for actual real-life
: playing and enjoyment of the game.
This is like a blind guy claiming that a guy paralyzed from the neck down
is an even worse baseball player than the blind guy. Do you have a point?
Tyler
In article <arlieEs...@netcom.com>, ar...@netcom.com (Arlie Stephens)
wrote:
> >I am curious about your distinction between player and mob...which of the
> >following would you fight?
>
> I'd kill any of them that didn't have human beings behind them, or that were,
> in effect, there to be killed ... i.e., if killing the character is likely
> to upset a human being, I won't do it unless I have really good reason
> to want to upset this particular individual. (And even then, I still
> probably won't do it; there are probably mitigating circumstances I don't
> know about, and it's likely better to avoid than to seek vengeance ...
> though I'll PK if it seems like the only way to control some louse's
> problem behaviour, on an otherwise desireable environment.)
>
> >You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
> >question to you is: Why?
>
> I prefer cooperative games, and don't like doing things that are likely
> to upset other people.
I noticed that you've repeatedly pointed out that you do not wish to upset
other players. Why is this? I mean, I don't know very many people that
would have nevous breakdowns because their character died...
Ty
--
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Woolcock
Arlie Stephens wrote:
>
> >* Boffo the smart mob. He'll fight back, he'll come after you if you flee,
> > he'll kill your friends, steal your equipment, and torture your pet cat.
> > If you don't find him first, he'll be sure to find you.
>
> Sounds like fun.
It also sounds like a mob that acts the same way as a player determined to
harrass and PK you. Perhaps you like the challenge of other people trying
to PK you, but don't like to initiate fights against them?
> >* Boffo the really smart mob. He's programmed with complex AI, allowing
> > him to respond to basic stuff like a player would. He'll be nice to you
> > if you're nice to him.
>
> Depends if I'm feeling role play ish. I might leave him alone. I'll certainly
> try to query him for info, training, etc. before taking him out.
Would you be more or less likely to kill the 'friendly mob' than the 'obnoxious
player'?
> >* Bubba the newbie player. He is trying to find his way around mud school,
> > and isn't bothering anyone. You know you could easily beat him.
>
> Not only won't I kill this one, but I might just kill a player I noticed
> attacking the newbie.
What if you stumble into a room with two newbies fighting each other?
> >* Bubba the obnoxious player. He is shouting abusive stuff, and stealing
> > your kills. You could probably beat him.
>
> If there's no other convenient way to deal with him. /gag works wonders
> for abusive comments, and it's probably fairly easy to lose him ... that
> sort of louse rarely explores.
>
> >* Bubba the mighty. He's mean, tough, and he's got a great sword that you
> > want. It would require all of your skill to beat him, but you know the
> > perfect trap to set.
What if that sword used to belong to your best friend, whom Bubba killed?
If not greed or pleasure, would you kill for revenge or justice?
> >* Bubba the afk/linkdead. You could kill him and he'd never even know it
> > was you! Good chance to restock your healing potions, too.
>
> No.
What if he had chatted "I'm fed up with this mud, I'm cutting my link and
never coming back"? How would he then be any different from a mob?
> >* Bubba the trigger bot. He's just wandering around, casting spells and
> > killing stuff. Laziness deserves punishment, and who better than you to
> > carry out the punishment?
>
> No.
A few years ago a friend of mine (Stephen) wrote some AI mobs for his mud (Ack
mud). The mobs appeared on the who list, grouped with each other, travelled
around getting equipment and gaining levels. I discussed the implementation
with him briefly - it worked with boolean checks, and the mobs were in effect
'players' (although no human could play them) with the mud controlling them like
very complex bots.
Would you kill such a mob?
> >You said you enjoy killing clever mobs, but not killing players. My
> >question to you is: Why?
>
> I prefer cooperative games, and don't like doing things that are likely
> to upset other people.
I enjoy cooperative games. I also enjoy hunting down powerful players and
killing them after a tactical and well-matched fight. Even better, I enjoy
battles fought with several players on each side. I take pleasure in
upsetting other players, and hearing their screams as another one bites the
dust. Unfortunately my imp-side clashes with this, and I gain no such
pleasure from my own mud/s.
I often wonder how Thoric (Realms of Despair) ever put up with me ;)
KaVir.
Russ Taylor
In article <35477...@news.cc.umr.edu>, j...@ultra1.cc.umr.edu (John
Adelsberger) wrote:
>Diku sucks. The game may be enjoyable to many people; the original Atari
>video game system is still enjoyable to play - this doesn't mean it is
>anything but pathetic by modern standards.
<pat> it must be hard going through life with that much bile...
Dikus are fun. Lps aren't. Nuff said.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Pigs - 3, Lord Nelson - 1" -- Monty Python's Flying Circus
Arlie Stephens
In article <levi-29049...@twnd209-74-41ppp152.epix.net>,
Tyler <levi@NOSPAM@epix.net> wrote:
>In article <arlieEs...@netcom.com>, ar...@netcom.com (Arlie Stephens)
>wrote:
>I noticed that you've repeatedly pointed out that you do not wish to upset
>other players. Why is this? I mean, I don't know very many people that
>would have nevous breakdowns because their character died...
I don't know many players who would have nervous breakdowns.
I also know hardly any players who are not at least somewhat annoyed when
something bad happens to their character, and especially irritated when
they feel that it is somone's fault and/or otherwise unfair.
Just look at all the people flaming "unfair" imms for examples; folks often
care a lot. It may be unreasonable ... but it's *very* human.
I don't derive pleasure from upsetting people. Nor do I measure myself
comparatively; their loss is not my gain.
I do derive pleasure from friendly social interactions; in general, if
I PK someone, except in an agreed upon contest (PK mud, arena, challenge
match, etc.) I am unlikely to have this sort of interaction with this person
in future.
This leaves only the "smarter opponent" challenge of player-vs-player
combat to be of any interest to me. That, of course, requires fighting
a near peer; these are not plentiful, given the usual wide variance
of character ability based on mud levels.
This is even before discussion of ethics; I don't want to be PK'd (barring
the agreed upon contest situation), so I don't believe I should be doing it.
It appears to me that PK-ers have 3 motives:
- derive pleasure from upsetting people
- find newbie killing easier and more lucrative than mob-killing
(and wouldn't dream of fighting a player of anywhere near their own
level :-))
- seek better challenge than any AI can provide.
The person who wants to make players and mobs indistinguishable would
appear to be setting things up in support of the challenge aspects.
I don't have an ethical problem with this. I even imagine that, in such
an environment, players who understood the implications would be no more
upset to be killed by a player than by a particularly tenacious/well
programmed/powerful mob.
The trouble is, for me, he is destroying the social aspects of mudding
in the process of adding this challenge. He's also making it very difficult
for newbies.
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>>Diku sucks. The game may be enjoyable to many people; the original Atari
>>video game system is still enjoyable to play - this doesn't mean it is
>>anything but pathetic by modern standards.
><pat> it must be hard going through life with that much bile...
I think he actually enjoys it
>Dikus are fun. Lps aren't. Nuff said.
OTOH generalizations make life so much simpler, eh?
Richard Woolcock
Arlie Stephens wrote:
>
[snip]
> The person who wants to make players and mobs indistinguishable would
> appear to be setting things up in support of the challenge aspects.
> I don't have an ethical problem with this. I even imagine that, in such
> an environment, players who understood the implications would be no more
> upset to be killed by a player than by a particularly tenacious/well
> programmed/powerful mob.
>
> The trouble is, for me, he is destroying the social aspects of mudding
> in the process of adding this challenge. He's also making it very difficult
> for newbies.
How does it destroy the social aspects of the mud (my players can still
chat OOC, using their OOC names)? How does it make it very difficult for
newbies (I am in the process of making ALL forms of killing optional)?
KaVir.
Craig S Dohmen
Russ Taylor wrote in message ...
>Where Dikus really sign is in entertainment: they are fun to play.
This
>something that cannot be said, sadly, of a large number of Lp muds.
One
>of the biggest problems is the quest-centered gaming of many Lp muds.
>Frankly, it was boring in Zork, and it's boring in the Lps that still
do
Oh rubbish. Maybe it was boring to YOU in Zork, but I would still
rather play a good text adventure than 85% of the crap that's on the
software shelves these days
>it. Ever notice that you can buy 20 or 30 infocom games for $10 now?
So you think Infocom went under because people didn't like the
puzzle-solving? Text adventures vanished because it's easier to
market a screenshot.
--Craig
Nathan Alexander Simington
Richard Woolcock wrote:
[snip]
>
> Now imagine an introduction system, so mobs and players look the same.
> Imagine that players don't necessarily appear on the who list, and that
> dead mobs don't come back (instead, the mud spawns new types of mob).
>
> Is that goblin standing in the room a linkdead player, or just a regular
> mob? Is the dwarf charging around town a spec_prog or a bot? Was that
> guy you grouped with earlier really a player, or was it the imp's new AI
> mob?
Are you saying that your mobs can pass the Turing test, KaVir? I'm
willing to believe you have great technology, but I had no idea just
how good... (=
Nathan
Russ Taylor
In article <6i8b9q$mvb$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, "Craig S Dohmen"
<doh...@erols.com> wrote:
>>it. Ever notice that you can buy 20 or 30 infocom games for $10 now?
>
>
>So you think Infocom went under because people didn't like the
>puzzle-solving? Text adventures vanished because it's easier to
>market a screenshot.
Text adventures went under because the replayability is nearly zero. They
aren't very good value for a 40-dollar software product.
Scott Cowell
Richard Woolcock wrote in message <
>I'll tell you what is shameful; slagging off another mud to try and promote
>your own. I guess the choice comes down to this:
>
>1) A mud where - POSSIBLY - the imms don't like to reveal themselves to the
> players, preferring to stay in the background (IMO this is what most
imms
> *should* do, particularly in a RP mud), or:
>
>2) A mud where - judging by your post - the imms try and tell you that
their
> mud is great because the competition sucks. A mud where the imms jump
to
> conclusions and make assumptions about people without even bothering to
> find out the facts first.
>
>I know which mud I'd rather play, and its not yours.
Maybe you oughta get your facts straight. I prefer not to air a whole lot
of dirty laundry on the newsgroups here, but looks like I have no choice.
Forgive me if I sound arrogant or egotistical in this post, but it's
difficult to hear things you've put huge amounts of time into get slagged by
people who are poorly informed at best.
Myself and a few people who have long departed from mudding, started Empire,
oh about 5 years ago. Not a single person who is running the current Empire
was part of that team, they all joined on some time later in the future. In
that 5+ years I spent a great deal of time helping to make Empire what it is
today. Along with great efforts from many others. Come about 8 months ago,
the oh-so-common story of people finally being unable to deal with each
other came about. So myself and many other key people went off in our own
direction and formed Imperium. End of story. I don't claim to love
everyone on Empire, obviously so or I wouldn't have abandoned a place where
I put so much time into. But I didn't have the time or patience anymore to
put up with petty mud power struggles. I've been there, done that, its a
complete and utter waste of time.
You talk of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, take a look in
the mirror. Sitting on a mud for 5 minutes enables you to judge its
exterior, not its personalities. Criticize the mud, the system, etc. to
your hearts content, such criticism is good and drives us to improve the mud
further. Otherwise keep your yap shut because you don't know what the
situation was, or what the driving force behind the breakup was.
I don't claim that Imperium is the greatest mud out there, if it was perfect
I wouldn't still be working on it. Some people like it, some people don't.
Sorry if our dirty laundry is getting aired for everyone to smell, but I
know the score and I'll be damned if I'm gonna lie down and take it on the
chin. Too many ppl have busted their humps to make Imperium a quality mud
where people can come to play a challenging game.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
Russ Taylor
In article <3547c...@news.cc.umr.edu>, j...@sun4.cc.umr.edu (John
Adelsberger) wrote:
>Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net) wrote:
>
>: Dikus are fun. Lps aren't. Nuff said.
>
>I thought about replying with a well reasoned argument, but then I remembered
>the old line about trying to teach a pig to sing.
You mean well reasoned like:
---
If it is still recognizable to players as being Diku derived, it sucks.
Sure, you can turn the code into something cool, but it won't really be
Diku anymore.
---
I guess that might seem well-reasoned to an Lp player...heck, you guys
have had equipment saving for almost three years now!
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Not many fishies, left in the sea.
Not many fishies, just Londo and me" -- G'Kar
Scott Cowell
Steven M Peterson wrote in message <6i7t4a$b...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
>Actually everyone seems to know who "the expressionless man" was after
>imms on imperium gave out all that info along with all other known pkers
>(except there own), which in my own opinion was kinda wrong.
This is a prime example of why Empire went down the shitter before the
breakup. "it was wrong to reveal who was playing ruthless pkillers". Most
everyone was guilty of running pks at one time or another (even myself).
But this kind of attitude just got so pervasive.. people were just getting
slaughtered by imm pks for being on the wrong side of some imm squabble.
And the imms get pissed off when the players realize that it was imms all
along. Hell, I wouldn't want to play a mud like that either. Its a way for
gutless admins to stay popular with players but still rule with an iron
fist.
>Its not a good idea to jump to conclusions. However it does become rather
>humorous for others when they see you make a fool of yourself.
It's funny how people are so quick to offer up advice that they would be
better suited to follow themselves.
>Hey! thats my line. Its funny we both have same but opposite feelings on
>this. Each feeling they are better off now that the "cheating imps" gone.
My decision to leave had nothing to do with "cheating imps". It had to do
with my feeling that people were intimidated by my desire to contribute,
even it be from a distance.
>Also I find it hard to believe that the imp staff on Imperium is actually
>willing to stop cheating just because you guys got a new mud. i may be
>wrong though. You won't find cheating on Empire... unlike old
>Empire/Imperium, any cheating at all will be dealt with harshly. After
>playing a MUD run by Imperium Imps(referred to as old Empire/Imperium), i
>found that if the imms are gonna cheat there really is no use playing a
>MUD like that. So if you are looking for a highly inflated world of high
>level characters with super eq coupled with cheating Imps, play Imperium.
I'm really sorry at this point that I don't even remember when you started
playing Empire, but I find it amusing that you can make such blanket
statements. I guess biting the hand that feeds is tough for you. I'll just
attribute it to you being so enthralled with playing that your mind blanked
out as to who was essentially running things then.
Additionally, please bring one single player forward who has even a
semi-reasonable story about 'imp cheating' on Imperium. Please. Otherwise
shut the fuck up and stick to what you know, which is, hmm. Well it's
nothing to do with developing or running a mud.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
Scott Cowell
bonif...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6i81uv$ruu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>P.S. I have made a mistake once, when I gave out my real e-mail address.
>Some idiots spammed my account with crap, and I have a strong belief those
>were part of Imperium crew. So, I prefer staying undisturbed.
I won't even bother to repeat the same tirade I've been on, you can read the
relevant parts of the other posts and apply appropriate phrases to your own
posting. But the ending jab is just too much.. names please? Surely you
know the email address of the spammer? If you're going to accuse part of our
team of things like this, come forward with real information or direct your
gutless accusations in some other direction. At least Sten, et al, put
their own name behind their words.
anc@imperium
imperium.mudservices.com 9000
Katrina McClelan
>: Dikus are fun. Lps aren't. Nuff said.
>LPs are fun. Dikus aren't. Nuff said.
You know, that has to be the second funniest thing I've seen in a long
time. The funniest is Hank the Angry, Drunken Dwarf. :)
-Kat
Tyler
In article <rtaylor-2904...@alander.cmc.net>, rta...@cmc.net
(Russ Taylor) wrote:
> In article <6i8b9q$mvb$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, "Craig S Dohmen"
> <doh...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >>it. Ever notice that you can buy 20 or 30 infocom games for $10 now?
> >
> >
> >So you think Infocom went under because people didn't like the
> >puzzle-solving? Text adventures vanished because it's easier to
> >market a screenshot.
>
> Text adventures went under because the replayability is nearly zero. They
> aren't very good value for a 40-dollar software product.
So then, graphical games like Wizardry have great replay value then? Text
games went under because people like to see pretty pictures and/or do not
make use of their imaginations.
Russ Taylor
In article <6i8jrk$6...@cegt201.bradley.edu>, Katrina McClelan
<kit...@directcheck.aries.net> wrote:
For more on the hysterical topic, see my wife's editorial:
http://www.seattlesquare.com/pandemonium/featurestext/AuntieDynamite.htm
25,000 votes and climbing!
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Oh Margie, you came and you found me a turkey, On my vacation
away from workie..." -- Homer
Russ Taylor
In article <levi-29049...@twnd209-74-41ppp111.epix.net>,
levi@NOSPAMM@epix.net (Tyler) wrote:
>>
>> Text adventures went under because the replayability is nearly zero. They
>> aren't very good value for a 40-dollar software product.
>
>So then, graphical games like Wizardry have great replay value then? Text
>games went under because people like to see pretty pictures and/or do not
>make use of their imaginations.
Yes, they do, because the gameplay has more to it than getting some items
in the right order, and because the gameplay isn't complete linear (as it
is in most Infocom games).
Some of the graphical games, in particular Dungeon Master, blow away games
like Zork.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
Russ Taylor
In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
>
>The LPs I work and play on lack NOTHING worthwhile that I've ever found
>on a Diku. I've never seen a Diku that was anything more than a killfest
>whose 'intelligent' mobs might actually follow you a room or two; I've
>never seen an LP even stay open for more than a month that was that
>pathetic.
I've seen _many_ (as in several dozen) Lps who's idea of a plot was
completing a half-dozen quests that were identical every time, and which
were all filled with a frantic race to re-equip every time the mud
crashed. BOR-ing.
I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Hey, it don't split up even any more" -- Bill
Jason Goodwin
In article <rtaylor-2904...@alander.cmc.net>,
Russ Taylor <rta...@cmc.net> wrote:
>> The funniest is Hank the Angry, Drunken Dwarf. :)
>
>For more on the hysterical topic, see my wife's editorial:
>http://www.seattlesquare.com/pandemonium/featurestext/AuntieDynamite.htm
>25,000 votes and climbing!
Last I saw, he had 47,000, as well as occupying many of the lower
spots in the top 15 with slight miss-spellings :) Curiously, I can't
seem to get onto their site to vote. Says something about the
overwhelming response? :)
Jason Goodwin
In article <3547c...@news.cc.umr.edu>,
John Adelsberger <j...@sun4.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>
>If it is still recognizable to players as being Diku derived, it sucks.
>Sure, you can turn the code into something cool, but it won't really be
>Diku anymore.
>
To quote a certain guy running a certain mud, players don't care
what the codebase is. The game is fun, because its fun, I don't
care how advanced the code is, if the game itself is not fun,
people won't play.
Richard Woolcock
Nathan Alexander Simington wrote:
>
[snip]
> Are you saying that your mobs can pass the Turing test, KaVir? I'm
> willing to believe you have great technology, but I had no idea just
> how good... (=
*chuckle* obviously I have nothing that complex - it was really intended
for the example - If a mob acts so similar to a player that you cannot
tell the difference, how would killing them be any different from PK?
KaVir.
John Adelsberger
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net) wrote:
: Dikus are fun. Lps aren't. Nuff said.
I thought about replying with a well reasoned argument, but then I remembered
the old line about trying to teach a pig to sing.
LPs are fun. Dikus aren't. Nuff said.
--
John Adelsberger
Richard Woolcock (Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM) wrote:
: John Adelsberger wrote:
: >
: > Dick-u muds suck ass, no matter what you do to them. Period.
: Now now, you can do better than that. Such a closed-minded approach ill
: becomes you.
If it is still recognizable to players as being Diku derived, it sucks.
Sure, you can turn the code into something cool, but it won't really be
Diku anymore.
--
John Viega
In article <rtaylor-2904...@alander.cmc.net> rta...@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) writes:
> >So you think Infocom went under because people didn't like the
> >puzzle-solving? Text adventures vanished because it's easier to
> >market a screenshot.
>
> aren't very good value for a 40-dollar software product.
Text adventures are still alive and well, although no one pays $40 for
them these days. Infocom tanked because they tried to do a database
and lost their shirt in the process.
Richard Woolcock
John Adelsberger wrote:
>
> If it is still recognizable to players as being Diku derived, it sucks.
> Sure, you can turn the code into something cool, but it won't really be
> Diku anymore.
I would say my mud is mostly unrecognisable as being diku derived - except
for the credits, the socials (which i am planning to change) and the note
system (which I also plan to change). I still consider it to be Diku
derived, and I don't consider it to suck (well, maybe a bit, but only
because its not finished yet).
Anyway, about the socials...I'm planning to have socials dependant on
various things - for example:
Social: smile
When you've had your jaw broken: You give a lopsided grin.
When you've had teeth knocked out: You give a toothy smile.
When you're happy: You smile happily.
When you're angry: You smile coldly.
etc...
The tricky thing is trying to work out emotions (and for my design, I
*DO* want them automated, although players will be able to try and
override their emotions with willpower).
Probably the easiest way would be something similar to the 'urges' I
discussed in another thread (fido getting hungry, thirsty, etc). Lets
say each person has a number of emotions:
[Note that I already store how much you like/dislike someone]
* Happiness (~Sadness) - Goes up when you spend time with people you like?
* Anger (~Calm) - Goes up when people do things your character doesn't like
(this would require players having to choose likes and dislikes). Goes up
when people steal from you, kill someone you like, hit you, or use 'nasty'
socials on you (taunting, etc).
* Jealousy/Envy - Goes up when people use 'kiss'-type socials with someone
your character likes >= LOVE.
* Desire/Lust - Goes up when in the company of people your character is
attracted to (combination of 'like' and appearance?).
These emotions could have various affects, ranging from modifying how much
you like someone all the way up to physically attacking people, depending
on how much self-control the person has (and how much they are antagonised).
Has anyone else implemented emotions? I'd be interested to see an implemented
system (my mud only uses flags to represent emotions at the moment).
KaVir.
Richard Woolcock
Scott Cowell wrote:
>
> Richard Woolcock wrote:
> >I'll tell you what is shameful; slagging off another mud to try and
> >promote your own. I guess the choice comes down to this:
> >
> >1) A mud where - POSSIBLY - the imms don't like to reveal themselves to
> > the players, preferring to stay in the background (IMO this is what
> > most imms *should* do, particularly in a RP mud), or:
> >
> >2) A mud where - judging by your post - the imms try and tell you that
> > their mud is great because the competition sucks. A mud where the
> > imms jump to conclusions and make assumptions about people without
> > even bothering to find out the facts first.
> >
> >I know which mud I'd rather play, and its not yours.
[snip story about split-up]
> You talk of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, take a look in
> the mirror. Sitting on a mud for 5 minutes enables you to judge its
> exterior, not its personalities. Criticize the mud, the system, etc. to
I made my judgements from the posts made here, by the imms of both Imperium
and Empire. In my examples I used the words 'possibly' and 'judging by your
post', which is considerably different from 'an imm clearly wrote this'.
> your hearts content, such criticism is good and drives us to improve the mud
> further. Otherwise keep your yap shut because you don't know what the
> situation was, or what the driving force behind the breakup was.
I never claimed to know anything about the break up, I simply pointed out
how disgusted I was that one of your imms would make unfounded accusations,
and use it as a chance to advertise your mud.
[snip rest]
KaVir.
John Adelsberger
Distribution:
In rec.games.mud.admin Russ Taylor <rta...@cmc.net> wrote:
: I guess that might seem well-reasoned to an Lp player...heck, you guys
: have had equipment saving for almost three years now!
You lose. The correct answer is more like 7-8 years. Given that the
first LP didn't go up till very late 89, that isn't so bad.
The LPs I work and play on lack NOTHING worthwhile that I've ever found
on a Diku. I've never seen a Diku that was anything more than a killfest
whose 'intelligent' mobs might actually follow you a room or two; I've
never seen an LP even stay open for more than a month that was that
pathetic.
--
John Adelsberger
Distribution:
In rec.games.mud.admin Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> wrote:
: I would say my mud is mostly unrecognisable as being diku derived - except
: for the credits, the socials (which i am planning to change) and the note
The credits are excusable:)
Steven M Peterson
Scott Cowell (sendjunkto...@interaccess.com) wrote:
: >Its not a good idea to jump to conclusions. However it does become rather
: >humorous for others when they see you make a fool of yourself.
: It's funny how people are so quick to offer up advice that they would be
: better suited to follow themselves.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. What _are_ you talking about?
Could you please point out where I should of used advice I gave Ma?
: I'm really sorry at this point that I don't even remember when you started
: playing Empire, but I find it amusing that you can make such blanket
: statements.
It might be amusing, but at the same time nothing I said was a lie or an
untruth. I hate to make such a "blanket" statement, but all the imms(with
few exceptions) on Old Empire cheated. Once a cheat alway a cheat
especially if you are the boss, cause its soooo easy to then.
Maybe I SHOULD give you the benefit of the doubt, but given your
guys track record, I'll have to decline on that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't be careful I'll ask you to prove you aren't cheating on
Imperium!! :P
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This leads to another interesting discussion though... can an a person who
makes the rules, cheat? I mean are they cheating? Its their game, their
computer, people don't have to be there, they make the rules... How can
they cheat?
: Additionally, please bring one single player forward who has even a
: semi-reasonable story about 'imp cheating' on Imperium. Please. Otherwise
: shut the fuck up and stick to what you know, which is, hmm. Well it's
: nothing to do with developing or running a mud.
So what I do know is nothing to do with developing or running a mud?
If you wish to post again in response to this, please just just email if
you are just gonna write some flame directed at me, you can obviously do
what you want though.
Sten <st...@cis.clarion.edu>
emp...@cis.clarion.edu ------ Empire Admins
cis.clarion.edu 4000
Scott Cowell
Steven M Peterson wrote in message <6i8ulo$f...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
>Scott Cowell (sendjunkto...@interaccess.com) wrote:
>
>: >Its not a good idea to jump to conclusions. However it does become
rather
>: >humorous for others when they see you make a fool of yourself.
>
>: It's funny how people are so quick to offer up advice that they would be
>: better suited to follow themselves.
>
>I'm not sure what you are talking about. What _are_ you talking about?
>
>Could you please point out where I should of used advice I gave Ma?
Jumping to conclusions. Making a fool out of themselves. Do I need to step
through this word by word? I'll use less complex sentence structures if it
makes it easier for you. For those that didn't pass the 3rd grade
comprehension test, what I'm saying is you talked about a lot of things in
your post you don't really know that much about.
>It might be amusing, but at the same time nothing I said was a lie or an
>untruth. I hate to make such a "blanket" statement, but all the imms(with
>few exceptions) on Old Empire cheated. Once a cheat alway a cheat
>especially if you are the boss, cause its soooo easy to then.
You're just supporting my original arguments here. I think I've been rather
forward in stating what I thought the problems were in respect to driving
away players, and that the blame wasn't totally on one side or the other.
I'm not quite sure who you're alluding to when you say "the boss" though.
Please use character names at least. Not Ma, he was not an Implementor at
Empire. Shruew? I'd like to hear Astafas apply that moniker to him.
Melkor perhaps? Yeah he was logging _huge_ amounts of time online. Or maybe
even Ragnarok, back from the forgotten mists of time. Of course not
Astafas. Then it must be me.. please refresh my memory.
>Maybe I SHOULD give you the benefit of the doubt, but given your
>guys track record, I'll have to decline on that.
Why would I need any benefit of doubt from you? I have a site, there is no
need for me to kiss your ass.
>This leads to another interesting discussion though... can an a person who
>makes the rules, cheat? I mean are they cheating? Its their game, their
>computer, people don't have to be there, they make the rules... How can
>they cheat?
You applied the word to the situation, not I. You are making some sense
here though. Cheating is more player's terminology, it seems to me. The
whole point of having rules is that supposedly they're supposed to benefit
the mud as a whole. Breaking them, in the long run, is counterproductive.
So even though noone is going to slap your wrist if you break them, you're
defeating the whole point of having them in the first place. I think even
you know this to be true.
>So what I do know is nothing to do with developing or running a mud?
Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time around and assume that
maybe you've written an area or two by now. Your position at Empire was
earned by merit of having a site. Period. If you think Haj would have given
you an Imp anywhere else, you're just deluding yourself.
>If you wish to post again in response to this, please just just email if
>you are just gonna write some flame directed at me, you can obviously do
>what you want though.
Don't worry. I'll do what I want, but I doubt anyone is reading this crap
anymore anyway.
-scott
Katrina McClelan
>In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
>I've seen _many_ (as in several dozen) Lps who's idea of a plot was
^^^^^
>I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
^^^^^
However, I've seen many dikus *whose* grammer was as bad as above, and, in
many of cases, worse :)
-Kat
Russ Taylor
In article <6i98fm$9...@cegt201.bradley.edu>, Katrina McClelan
<kit...@directcheck.aries.net> wrote:
>However, I've seen many dikus *whose* grammer was as bad as above, and, in
>many of cases, worse :)
In all the world, there is nothing more pitiful than a grammar flame.
Particularly when the grammar flamer makes an error as well.
--
Russ Taylor (rta...@cmc.net, http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
Chambers Multimedia Connection Help Desk
"Come on Natural 20. Daddy needs a new Sword of Wounding!" -- Langley
Bob Farmer
>
>>In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
>
>>I've seen _many_ (as in several dozen) Lps who's idea of a plot was
> ^^^^^
>>I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
> ^^^^^
>
>many of cases, worse :)
>
"grammer"? Classic.
--
Bob Farmer ucs...@unx1.shsu.edu
University Computer Services, Sam Houston State Univ. (409)294-3547
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <35477...@news.cc.umr.edu>,
j...@ultra1.cc.umr.edu (John Adelsberger) wrote:
> How many people do you know who would play the original Dikumud today,
> given the alternatives? Probably not many. They might enjoy it if they
> did, but they'd prefer the newer derivatives. Similarly, there are muds
> far and away beyond what any Diku has ever done. Their day will come.
I played on Diku II when it was brand new, and had a lot of fun. Of course,
the reason for that is that it *was* brand new, and completely different from
every stock LP running around at the time - a decided break from Lars' town,
Harry the Affectionate, bolt/fireball/heal spells, the same 20 levels in every
game, and every other stock feature that made LP's fade into the background.
I find it ironic that the tables have turned so dramatically - Midgaard is now
considered the ultimate example of stock hell, and LPs pride themselves on
their uniqueness. Strangely enough, I think that if the old nostalgic LP
Mudlib world were dragged back out and revamped on a good mud, it would make
for a very fun setting.
> Diku sucks. The game may be enjoyable to many people; the original Atari
> video game system is still enjoyable to play - this doesn't mean it is
> anything but pathetic by modern standards.
Sure, the hardware may be pathetic. But tune into some of the game emulator
newsgroups (especially the C=64 crowd), and you'll still find a large crowd of
people dedicated to a favorite platform, not because it still competes on a
technological basis, but because it had fun games. Well written stuff, that
made the most of the limited platform it was running on. When it comes right
down to it, the game's the thing.
Mick the Medic, who chose the Cleric's path to riches on Diku II ;-)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Aristotle@Threshold
In article <6i7f9c$4...@corn.cso.niu.edu>, mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
>I hope your web page and mud is better than this, the <massive sarcasm>
>tag belongs here, not above.
LAUGH! Oh the beautiful pedant!
>As I noted in another thread, you demonstrate no capability to imagine
>somebody with a perspective different from your own.
Sorry, when someone makes an absurd statement they cant just hide under the
guise of 'having a different perspective.'
-Aristotle@Threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VISIT THRESHOLD ONLINE! High Fantasy Role Playing Game!
Player run clans, guilds, businesses, legal system, nobility, missile
combat, detailed religions, rich, detailed roleplaying environment.
http://www.threshold-rpg.com
telnet://threshold-rpg.com:23
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Aristotle@Threshold
Russ, I still want to hear you explain your theory about "quest based games
sucking" when Myst is a total quest based game and it did extremely well
(isn't it the best selling computer game ever?)
Aristotle@Threshold
This sentence makes no sense.
>This something that cannot be said, sadly, of a large number of Lp muds.
That was a marvellously stupid statement. Yeah, LPmuds aren't fun. What a
stupid statement. *sheesh*
>One of the biggest problems is the quest-centered gaming of many Lp muds.
Um, that is a matter of design, it has nothing to do with LPcode. An LPmud can
be made to be quest centered or it can be made to simulate a DIKU exactly.
Aristotle@Threshold
><doh...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>>it. Ever notice that you can buy 20 or 30 infocom games for $10 now?
>>
>>puzzle-solving? Text adventures vanished because it's easier to
>>market a screenshot.
>
>Text adventures went under because the replayability is nearly zero. They
>aren't very good value for a 40-dollar software product.
You are a total moron. Are you aware that those "crappy" text adventures made
a shitload of money when they were first created?
Do you realize Myst is nothing but a quest based product with cool graphics
and sound?
Aristotle@Threshold
>Adelsberger) wrote:
>
>>Diku sucks. The game may be enjoyable to many people; the original Atari
>>video game system is still enjoyable to play - this doesn't mean it is
>>anything but pathetic by modern standards.
>
Russ, you are such a moron it is getting frightening. Do you realize that the
number of LPmud players is also quite huge?
Furthermore, you argued that LPmuds suck because they tend to be quest based.
1) this is not true
2) apparently a lot of people like solving quests: MYST!
George Reese
Every now and then Russ, you poke your head into a thread and
demonstrate your complete lack of meaningful experience in the LP
world. Sure, maybe you hopped on a few dozen or so in 1992, but your
generalizations really do not apply except for maybe a few older muds
out there that never evolved.
In rec.games.mud.lp Russ Taylor <rta...@cmc.net> wrote:
: In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
:>
:>The LPs I work and play on lack NOTHING worthwhile that I've ever found
:>on a Diku. I've never seen a Diku that was anything more than a killfest
:>whose 'intelligent' mobs might actually follow you a room or two; I've
:>never seen an LP even stay open for more than a month that was that
:>pathetic.
: I've seen _many_ (as in several dozen) Lps who's idea of a plot was
: completing a half-dozen quests that were identical every time, and which
: were all filled with a frantic race to re-equip every time the mud
: crashed. BOR-ing.
: I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
--
George Reese (bo...@imaginary.com) http://www.imaginary.com/~borg
"In our fear, we make an image, and that image we call God."
Antonius Block in The Seventh Seal
PGP Key: http://www.imaginary.com/servlet/Finger?user=borg&verbose=yes
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <3547E5...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> wrote:
> I understand what you are saying, but I am still unable to pinpoint any
> particular difference between PK and MK other than "they're a player".
I think that's because there isn't any other particular difference, at least
not for the people who *don't* want to PK. The idea that there's a person
connected to that other object, and it's not just placed there by the staff
for your slaughtering enjoyment is enough to discourage many people from
attacking it. They don't want to piss off another player, not because they're
afraid of the consequences, but because they just don't go around pissing
people off as a hobby. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with
PK, as long as you know what you're getting into - it's announced up front
that this is a pure-PK mud, or that limited PK is allowed, and under what
circumstances. I've never seen a mud that allowed any form of PK that
*didn't* do this right up front in the newbie rules.
I like the idea of blurring the distinction between monster and player, but
you should know what you, as a developer, are getting into as well. Many
players will avoid muds where PK is allowed under general circumstances. Many
unwanted players will be attracted by an open PK policy - a lot of jerks
*enjoy* pissing people off in their spare time, and will run to a mud where
they think they can 'get away with it'.. unless you have some other filtering
mechanism in place, these kind of players will drive off others. Technically,
PK is allowed on Dreamshadow, as long as it's for a valid IC reason. We do an
investigation into every player vs player attack to check this out. In seven
years of mudding, we have had *one* PK that was done for a legitimate IC
reason. YMMV, of course - it's quite possible that because we're strict about
looking into any player vs player attacks, that we drive off any legitimate RP
PKers.
Mike
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <rtaylor-2904...@alander.cmc.net>,
rta...@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) wrote:
>
> In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu>
wrote:
>
> >
> >The LPs I work and play on lack NOTHING worthwhile that I've ever found
> >on a Diku. I've never seen a Diku that was anything more than a killfest
> >whose 'intelligent' mobs might actually follow you a room or two; I've
> >never seen an LP even stay open for more than a month that was that
> >pathetic.
>
> I've seen _many_ (as in several dozen) Lps who's idea of a plot was
> completing a half-dozen quests that were identical every time, and which
> were all filled with a frantic race to re-equip every time the mud
> crashed. BOR-ing.
*smile* Standard quests serve a purpose, and I think a mud is better served
by having standard quests then having none at all. One shot quests are
certainly an improvement over either, but have their limitations as well,
particularly the time and effort involved in running them for a single,
non-repeatable result. I think a combination of both kinds, implemented
logically within the game, is the best idea.
I also notice a tendancy here for the 'LP vs. Diku' crowd to compare the
features of the best Dikus against the stockest LPs, and vice versa. Perhaps
John thinks Diku sucks because he's never played on a good one. He compares
his dream LP against off-the-rack Rom/Circle/Merc/Smaug muds, and finds the
latter lacking. You counter by comparing your dream Diku derivitive against
the lamest examples of LP-dom. Perhaps we would both be better served by
giving examples of the points worth considering from both systems?
> I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
Interesting. What differences do you see between Diku combat and LP combat
that lead you to believe that one is boring and the other not? Personally,
I've played on many of both kinds over the course of several years. With the
exception of highly modified games, I've never seen much variation in combat
in either system. So what do you see as the all important difference between
the two? And what features make combat more interesting?
Mickelian is curious...
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <6i9dcn$4k5$1...@unx1.shsu.edu>,
ucs...@unx1.shsu.edu (Bob Farmer) wrote:
>
> In article <6i98fm$9...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
> Katrina McClelan <kit...@directcheck.aries.net> wrote:
> >In <rtaylor-2904...@alander.cmc.net> rta...@cmc.net (Russ Taylor)
writes:
> >
> >>I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
> >
> >However, I've seen many dikus *whose* grammer was as bad as above, and, in
> >many of cases, worse :)
> >
> >-Kat
>
> "grammer"? Classic.
Yup.. Now she's started insulting relatives (or is it a slam against that
'Frasier' guy?). This is gonna turn into a flame fest for sure.. ;-)
m.g.w...@usa.net
In article <6i8ulo$f...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
smps...@pitt.edu (Steven M Peterson) wrote:
> This leads to another interesting discussion though... can an a person who
> makes the rules, cheat? I mean are they cheating? Its their game, their
> computer, people don't have to be there, they make the rules... How can
> they cheat?
Yes, the guy who makes the rules can cheat, by not following his own rules.
Even if you wouldn't call it 'cheating', it's hypocrisy. That IMO, is even
worse. 'It's my game.' 'You don't have to be here.' I've heard these lame
excuses all the time from pathetic admins who don't have the self control and
discipline to follow a set of rules when nobody is looking over their
shoulder. The truth is yes, it's your game. No, the players don't have to be
there. Follow that to it's logical conclusion. They'll stop coming around,
and the game will be absolutely yours, because there won't be anyone else
interested.
I don't know anything about your mud conflict here, and I'm not accusing you
personally of anything. But I've been mudding for nearly eight years. I've
seen myriad places close up shop because they foolishly drove their own player
base away. If you're seriously arguing that line of thinking and not just
playing Devil's Advocate, my advice is DON'T! You'll hurt your mud in the
long run.
m.g.w...@usa.net
>
> In rec.games.mud.admin Russ Taylor <rta...@cmc.net> wrote:
>
> : I guess that might seem well-reasoned to an Lp player...heck, you guys
> : have had equipment saving for almost three years now!
>
> You lose. The correct answer is more like 7-8 years. Given that the
> first LP didn't go up till very late 89, that isn't so bad.
Really? I started playing LPs about that time, and I can't honestly remember
a signle LP with equipment saving from that time period. Do you know of a
specific one, or are you guessing? I browsed quite a number of muds in those
days, and I'm sure I would have remembered one with such a 'revolutionary'
feature.
Timothy Timbrook
Here's a thought. How about everyone agree that we disagree?
Some people really do like DIKU over LP and vica versa.
Similarly stockish muds vs. "unique" muds. Different strokes
for different folks OR whatever rocks your boat...
Drifter
Aristotle@Threshold
I think most folks generally agree here. However, its when someone like Russ
pops in and says all LP muds suck and all LP muds are "not fun" that the
flames fly.
Arlie Stephens
In article <3547EE...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@dial.pipex.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>Arlie Stephens wrote:
>>
>> >* Boffo the smart mob. He'll fight back, he'll come after you if you flee,
>> > he'll kill your friends, steal your equipment, and torture your pet cat.
>> > If you don't find him first, he'll be sure to find you.
>>
>> Sounds like fun.
>
>It also sounds like a mob that acts the same way as a player determined to
>harrass and PK you. Perhaps you like the challenge of other people trying
>to PK you, but don't like to initiate fights against them?
Yes, I believe when I wrote that I wasn't taking you literally, and/or
was imagining you meant "in response to an attack from me or my party".
An NPC that behaved like an abusive player would be even worse than a real
player acting that way; it's *much* easier to convince the player to leave
the mud ... or the admins to ban him... than it is to change the intended
behaviour of an AI.
>> Depends if I'm feeling role play ish. I might leave him alone. I'll certainly
>> try to query him for info, training, etc. before taking him out.
>
>Would you be more or less likely to kill the 'friendly mob' than the 'obnoxious
>player'?
I'm more likely to kill a friendly mob, barring a situation where that's
a really bad idea for reasons of game advantage.
>> Not only won't I kill this one, but I might just kill a player I noticed
>> attacking the newbie.
>
>What if you stumble into a room with two newbies fighting each other?
That's their problem then. It's bullies that I abhor.
>> >* Bubba the mighty. He's mean, tough, and he's got a great sword that you
>> > want. It would require all of your skill to beat him, but you know the
>> > perfect trap to set.
>
>What if that sword used to belong to your best friend, whom Bubba killed?
>
>If not greed or pleasure, would you kill for revenge or justice?
Yes. Though I'm most likely to kill as a means of chasing a troublemaker
off the mud, or encouraging him to modify his behaviour.
Frankly, I have a lot of patience; by the time I'm looking for a trouble
maker with lethal intent, there's quite a number of other players after
him ... and like as not the admins are debating between banning him
and banning his whole site :-)
>> >* Bubba the afk/linkdead. You could kill him and he'd never even know it
>> > was you! Good chance to restock your healing potions, too.
>>
>> No.
>
>What if he had chatted "I'm fed up with this mud, I'm cutting my link and
>never coming back"? How would he then be any different from a mob?
It wouldn't be, though I probably still wouldn't bother. Expecially as,
in my experience, players who vow never to retrun often change their minds.
>A few years ago a friend of mine (Stephen) wrote some AI mobs for his mud (Ack
>mud). The mobs appeared on the who list, grouped with each other, travelled
>around getting equipment and gaining levels. I discussed the implementation
>with him briefly - it worked with boolean checks, and the mobs were in effect
>'players' (although no human could play them) with the mud controlling them like
>very complex bots.
Interesting, a friend and I were discussing much the same thing, though
the bots were intended as friendly/helpful, not kill targets. (Providers
of services (for a fee) that would be expected to be provided by players
once the mud got a big enough player base.) They also wouldn't act entirely
like players; they wouldn't be farming experience, grouping, etc.
>Would you kill such a mob?
Not the ones in our idea. As for the others ... if I could distinguish
them reliably from players, and the rewards were decent.
>I enjoy cooperative games. I also enjoy hunting down powerful players and
>killing them after a tactical and well-matched fight. Even better, I enjoy
>battles fought with several players on each side.
*chuckle* A nice battle can be a lot of fun, and humans are likely to be
a lot more interesting.
> I take pleasure in
>upsetting other players, and hearing their screams as another one bites the
>dust.
There we differ.
> Unfortunately my imp-side clashes with this, and I gain no such
>pleasure from my own mud/s.
That's a relief. I've seen wannabee admins with an us-vs-them attitude
to their players/enjoying seeing the mobs win. It doesn't make for a fun
(or populated :-)) mud.
I suspect my weakness as an admin may be wanting to watch them succeed...
I imagine I'd be reminding myself ... a lot ... that too easy is ultimately
no fun.
----
Arlie
(Arlie Stephens ar...@netcom.com)
AxL
Katrina McClelan <kit...@directcheck.aries.net> writes:
>rta...@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) writes:
>
>>In article <3547e...@news.cc.umr.edu>, John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
>
> ^^^^^
>>I've not yet seen a single Diku who's combat was as boring as an Lp's.
>
>many of cases, worse :)
Ahh, the true sign of a degenerating topic...resorting to
grammer attacks. Shall we just make some veiled Hitler comparisons now
and be done with this?
--
-AxL a...@wpcr.plymouth.edu "In Christianity, neither morality nor religion
j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu Come into contact with reality at any point."
http://mindwarp.plymouth.edu/~axl - Nietzsche
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>>I hope your web page and mud is better than this, the <massive sarcasm>
>>tag belongs here, not above.
>LAUGH! Oh the beautiful pedant!
I spend more time than I should surfing and find misplaced tags and lousy
html to be a serious pain in the ass.
>>As I noted in another thread, you demonstrate no capability to imagine
>>somebody with a perspective different from your own.
>
>Sorry, when someone makes an absurd statement they cant just hide under
>the guise of 'having a different perspective.'
"An absurd statement"?
The statement was, more-or-less, that some people don't like killing
PCs because those people are nice.
You responded that it was because they were wimps.
Aside from the question of your qualifications as a mind reader,
we have had three or four folx come out and agree that in their
case the original statement was true.
You think it was absurd, others prove by personal experience that
it was true. QED.