ENOUGH STALE MUDS!
bec...@bellsouth.net
Please excuse this if it sounds harsh.
I have been mudding for nearly 7 years now, in this time I have played
on:
Sci Fi muds (star trek, star wars, robocop, ect muds are just too rare)
D&D muds (based strictly on the RPG.. shadowdale, daggerdale, ect)
Wheeloftime muds (Used to be my favorite until I realize they are all
alike.. good books don't make
good muds)
Vampire muds (white wolf made a good world for RL RPG, problem is noone
knows how to
bring this to the mudding world)
Hack 'n Slash muds (Not bad but they get boring real fast. In a couple
months the only reason your
staying is cause you don't want to loose
your char)
PK muds (Interesting challenge.. BUT i have yet to see a good pk mud
where the imms don't
let the powerful morts run around, do, and say anything
they want to. Thus leading
to a very unfriendly place)
RP muds (Very entertaining but the sad fact is that noone can mix the
fighting of Muds with the RP
of other M*'s)
And in all these fields, these widely spaning worlds of enjoyment there
is one major problem.
NOTHING NEW! Everything is just the same things repeated over and over.
Every once in
a while you come out with something good (godwars started out good) but
then it all either
goes to crap or people open so many clones you can no longer keep
players.
So this is what I'm going to do:
I'm posting here with two choices...
A: I offer my services as an idea man for any field of mudding besides
AD&D (no.. more..
dragons... must.... stop... dragons......) I have many original ideas on
new muds as well
as able to think on my feet to come up with new additions for an
existing mud. Note that
I do not need to be made an immortal for this, so if you want to bring
me on your mud for
a week and listen to my ideas i'll be happy as long as I have some
chance to improve this
very stale mudding universe we're now in.
B: I'll open my own mud if I can preform the impossible task of finding
a coder who knows
more then just adding a new skill or spell. I'll layout everything that
you need to do, you just
have to code it.
Well.. I supose even this endless rant must come to an end. So here it
is.
Please do not be offended by this message. I'm just stating what I feel
most of us believe but
are afraid to say.
Ghost
Mystran the Dark-Elf
> I'm posting here with two choices...
> A: I offer my services as an idea man for any field of mudding besides
> AD&D (no.. more..
> dragons... must.... stop... dragons......) I have many original ideas on
> new muds as well
> as able to think on my feet to come up with new additions for an
> existing mud. Note that
> I do not need to be made an immortal for this, so if you want to bring
> me on your mud for
> a week and listen to my ideas i'll be happy as long as I have some
> chance to improve this
> very stale mudding universe we're now in.
>
> B: I'll open my own mud if I can preform the impossible task of finding
> a coder who knows
> more then just adding a new skill or spell. I'll layout everything that
> you need to do, you just
> have to code it.
Well, I am finally started coding my "mud". It is a modern time (with a
little
more high-tech) RPG that has many differences to ordinary MUD's.
few are:
Realism (one bullet can kill, perm-death)
World (I will build the "spots" to be parts of room.. you can see
around you
but still need not to run 2000 rooms to get from your house to the
street.)
Politics (as guns are illegal to carry without a licence,
relationships are what
keeps the wheel turning..)
I think it will take a week or too before the world creation can
actually be
started.. i have so far only done the socket-engine and a little chat..
I will have online building of rooms and items done with easy commands
(NO MORE 'ED' !) so that anyone could build if given permission..
(no special experience needed..)
hmm.. well.. Mail me if interested.. I am open to any ideas..
a bad idea is more useful than no ideas at all :)
I really don't want my game to end up as a MUD but a world =D.
PS. As English is not my mother tongue, some may not be represented as
intended..
hope you understand what i am trying to say..
--
- Mystran the Dark-Elf, Mage from Higher Realms of Mind
God of Destiny, writer of the Songs of the Ancients.
White Flame (aka David Holz)
>And in all these fields, these widely spaning worlds of enjoyment there
>is one major problem.
>NOTHING NEW! Everything is just the same things repeated over and over.
>Every once in
>a while you come out with something good (godwars started out good) but
>then it all either
>goes to crap or people open so many clones you can no longer keep
>players.
Am I being original? Every player in my mud-in-progress is a Commodore
computer, including PET, VIC-20, C64, C128, and Amigas. Instead of
HP/MP/etc, you've got Case constitution, power supplies, programming
abilities, soldering abilities, monetary units are in "Pieces of K" (if
you've watched Sketchcom, you might know), ability units are in CPU cycles.
You've got physical attacks and electronic attacks.
In the world reside PClone boxes, whose stray, crashing Windows go around
stealing CPU cycles and eat up pieces of K. You must find these boxes, and
load up a Commodore emulator on them to gain entry into its realm, and
defeat it from the inside.
Lots of non-combat fun, like classic games, a kabillion different upgrades
and hacks you can do to your machine, programmable bots & tournaments you
can enter them into. Later on, maybe I'll start up races for the competing
8-bit computers. :)
It's really more of a test of a peer-to-peer graphical MUD, using Java, but
refreshing the graphics was painfully slow (using an X-Com type graphic
engine). So, I'm totally rewriting it in Java3D, now that that's coming
out.
>Please do not be offended by this message. I'm just stating what I feel
>most of us believe but
>are afraid to say.
no, other people have said it too. :)
--
White Flame (aka David Holz)
http://fly.to/theflame
bec...@bellsouth.net
It seems I owe the mudding universe an apology. Or at least a few members of
it.
Since posting this original thread I have recieved 12 emails and two posts.
Believe it or not, 5 of those emails were offers for people to code for me.
2 LP lib,
1 LP driver/lib combo and 2 Diku-style.
I am frankly quite shocked that there are still people around with the need
for original
ideas, it doesn't exactly look like it from the muds around huh?
Well anyways, to these 12-14 people I apologize.
For anyone else out there who may be infected by the thirst for original
mudding,
I offer this one piece of advice.. GET OFF YER REARS AND MAKE A MUD!
Hehe, I'm currently starting three muds (one i'm learning to code with, and
two with
people who have mailed me about this thread). I will be deviding my time
greatly..
but considering I have no life that's not a problem ;)
Anyways, To all who seek original mudding, I suggest you get with some
friends and
make your own muds. It's challenging, fun, and if it's a lot of hard work,
its always
worth it in the end. Your not just doing something fun for you, your
improving the
entire mudding universe.
If you are completely unable to do so, then wait around a few months until
one of mine
open and we can really rock ;) There are always immortal placements
available in my muds
as well so keep using those heads for more then a projectile to ram into the
walls!
Once again, thank you for the emails and posts, I'll try to respond as fast
as I can,
Ghost
suzy
Three muds?
Good muds are never made from attitude - They are made from hard work and
dedication.
Very few have what it takes. Post again when your hosting 40-50 players
nightly.
I will check back in a few years. :)
Je...@merentha.com
telnet://mud.merentha.com:10000
<bec...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37878EE2...@bellsouth.net...
Lord Ashon
> Alright.
>
> Please excuse this if it sounds harsh.
>
> I have been mudding for nearly 7 years now, in this time I have played
> on:
[snip list of MUDs Played on]
> And in all these fields, these widely spaning worlds of enjoyment there
> is one major problem.
> NOTHING NEW! Everything is just the same things repeated over and over.
> Every once in
> a while you come out with something good (godwars started out good) but
> then it all either
> goes to crap or people open so many clones you can no longer keep
> players.
Let me explain a couple of things here, please don't take any offense as
sometimes I too can come off as being a bore/idiot/sarcastic/and(or) mean.
>=)
There are MUDs that are pushing the limits of MUDding. And this is
exciting. You hear whispers here, stories there, and rumors abound a
plenty. And as a Coder(imp), builder, and Admin, I find this thrilling
and exciting. But as a player like yourself, I realize that these MUDs
are still in development. And they will almost always be in development.
The people who are writing these new muds aren't doing it because they
want to have the biggest, most kick-ass muds around, they are doing it
because a) they are having fun b) they are experimenting c) they love
coding on muds.
On one of the mail list I am on, there was a recent, new server roll-call.
Where everyone creating a new mud server was asked to describe the things
their server did, would do, trial and tribulations, and goals.
Most of the posters talked about how many times they have scratched 6
months of intensive programming because they found a fault in their design
for something or other.
So your kinda mud is out there but it's not advertised, and it's
definitely not being played.
>=(
>
> So this is what I'm going to do:
>
> I'm posting here with two choices...
> A: I offer my services as an idea man for any field of mudding besides
> AD&D (no.. more..
> dragons... must.... stop... dragons......) I have many original ideas on
> new muds as well
> as able to think on my feet to come up with new additions for an
> existing mud. Note that
> I do not need to be made an immortal for this, so if you want to bring
> me on your mud for
> a week and listen to my ideas i'll be happy as long as I have some
> chance to improve this
> very stale mudding universe we're now in.
>
> Ghost
>
Well, it's good to know that your willing to help change the face of
mudding and not just sit there and whine about it!
>=)
--Lord Ashon
Now is when you should be saying, "Just Kidding!" --Dilbert
The only way to get rid of a temptations is to yield to it! --Wilde
as...@wsunix.wsu.edu
bec...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> For anyone else out there who may be infected by the thirst for
original
> mudding,
> I offer this one piece of advice.. GET OFF YER REARS AND MAKE A MUD!
Oh great. Now your encouraging more stale muds. Not everyone has what
it takes to create a unique mud. That's why we see a proliferation of
WoT muds. I saw the first one go up in '94 or was it '95? And now how
many of them are there?
You mentioned GodWars in your original post, you want to know why it
became lame so soon? Because the code was taken from KaVir the
developer and given to people who went, whoa, with this code base, I
can make something kewl. But all they can do is add skills and races.
Anytime a Codebase gets out to the public the more 'standardized' it
becomes.
> Hehe, I'm currently starting three muds (one i'm learning to code
with, and
> two with
> people who have mailed me about this thread). I will be deviding my
time
> greatly..
> but considering I have no life that's not a problem ;)
And each one is going to be unique? I'd be interested in hearing how
you plan on having unique ideas for each one seperately. Personally
I've spent the last 4 years developing ideas for my codebase, now which
I finally feel comfortable implementing.
>
> Anyways, To all who seek original mudding, I suggest you get with some
> friends and
> make your own muds. It's challenging, fun, and if it's a lot of hard
work,
> its always
> worth it in the end. Your not just doing something fun for you, your
> improving the
> entire mudding universe.
even if it is stale?
> If you are completely unable to do so, then wait around a few months
until
> one of mine
Only a couple of months? I'm impressed. You found coders who are
going to be able to create a totally original combat system, magic
system, skill system, character creation system, level system all in a
few months? If their that good please sign me up!
> Ghost
'Hrms silently as he hunkers down for another long day'
--Lord Ashon
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Miss K L Simpson
: Only a couple of months? I'm impressed. You found coders who are
: going to be able to create a totally original combat system, magic
: system, skill system, character creation system, level system all in a
: few months? If their that good please sign me up!
To what extent can any MUD claim to be original? To some extent, all MUDs
contain features which can be found in their predecessors, or were possible
in their predecessors just that no one was fortunate enough to see the idea.
Or those that did see it, never implemented it. So who originated the idea,
the new MUD or the old? In many respects, even the most modern MUD contains
aspects which can be found in the original MUD.
If a MUD contained anything which was truly original, would it be a MUD
anymore? Is it possible to have change, but no change? Either all
modification to MUDs produce originals, no matter how slight the change,
or none of them are originals, nor can they be. It is very difficult to
judge.
In which case, the wisest thing to do is judge each MUD on its own merits,
not whether it has things which may or may not have been done before. If
a MUD is true to itself, then it is good. If it is not, then it is bad.
A good MUD is not ruined because there are many copies of it. On the contrary
it means that the MUD has a larger audience. If a MUD is sh*t however, having
several copies means that sh*t has a wider audience.
Does this mean we want people to have the licence to rip off other peoples
hard work? Maybe! but so long as they copy the good MUDs and leave the
sh*t behind. They should also be true to themselves. Those that believe in
originality should give honour on to whom it is due: be it the creators of
LPmud, DIKU, AberMUD, MUD or whoever they feel, in their hearts, are
originators.
What is it that gives a creator the original idea in the first place? Do they
discover it by accident? Is it a gift from God? Or where they just born with
the ability? In which case, should we be given them credit at all. Should we
not rather by honouring God or their mother?
Finally, any system can be corrupted in the hands of bad people. If they
modify a good MUD, or terrorize it, it will be bad. That is what truly makes
a MUD good or bad; the hearts of the people who administer it. The need to
find good admins should take greater precedent over the need to find any
new or original MUD. Without good people you cannot hope to find an answer
to any of these questions.
as...@wsunix.wsu.edu
ps...@primrose.csv.warwick.ac.uk (Miss K L Simpson) wrote:
> as...@wsunix.wsu.edu wrote:
>
> : Only a couple of months? I'm impressed. You found coders who are
> : going to be able to create a totally original combat system, magic
> : system, skill system, character creation system, level system all
in a
> : few months? If their that good please sign me up!
>
> To what extent can any MUD claim to be original? To some extent, all
MUDs
> contain features which can be found in their predecessors, or were
possible
> in their predecessors just that no one was fortunate enough to see
the idea.
> Or those that did see it, never implemented it. So who originated the
idea,
> the new MUD or the old? In many respects, even the most modern MUD
contains
> aspects which can be found in the original MUD.
But my, dear lady, and I will assume that you are a lady until proven
otherwise, The original post, stated, "ENOUGH STALE MUDS". True we can
all trace our roots back to the original MUD. And in fact, I have
thought about turning things around and going back to that original.
But the 'goals' of MUD, and a now-a-day mud are totally different. In
MUD, by Richard Bartle, and Roy Trubshaw (apologizes for butchering of
names) was akin to Adventure, where you went around solving puzzles,
not killing things. So in that aspect we have nothing related to MUD.
Now, in system design, there are many many similiarities.
>
> If a MUD contained anything which was truly original, would it be a
MUD
> anymore?
MUD, is such an Ambigious term, how about MUA (Multi-User Adventure?)
I mean, come on how many MUD's are really set in a dungeon anymore?
And yes, if a mud contained anything which was truly original, it would
still be a mud. The first mud to implement Graphics (Not ascii
drawings) was very unique, did that make it not a mud? I for one am
against gMUD's but they are still part of the MUDding community.
> Is it possible to have change, but no change? Either all
> modification to MUDs produce originals, no matter how slight the
change,
> or none of them are originals, nor can they be. It is very difficult
to
> judge.
Excuse me? So if I take J.R.R. Tolkiens LotR series, and change the
main charcters race from Hobbit to Gully dwarf, does that make it
original? Let me bring this back to the original post, ENOUGH STALE
MUDS, I assumed the poster was tired of all the diku-ish muds that were
all a like, and wanted something different. He then goes to say he's
now working on three MUDs. I was simply trying to point out, that it
was that kind of situations that leads to stale muds. I find that
working on my own mud is almost a fulltime job. And that splitting his
time on three muds, and making each one original is a mighty job indeed.
> In which case, the wisest thing to do is judge each MUD on its own
merits,
> not whether it has things which may or may not have been done before.
If
> a MUD is true to itself, then it is good. If it is not, then it is
bad.
This is called consistancy. And if a MUD has consistancy it is already
a step ahead of the pack.
> A good MUD is not ruined because there are many copies of it. On the
contrary
> it means that the MUD has a larger audience. If a MUD is sh*t
however, having
> several copies means that sh*t has a wider audience.
No, but it becomes standardized. I'm currently working on development
of a new mud server with a couple of people, and I have found, that
since we are all working on it for our own muds, we come to compromises
about how such and such system should do. We do this because it is
such a huge undertaking that if we just built it from scratch it would
take forever. And so it becomes more and more difficult to break from
this new design, the more we compromise.
> Does this mean we want people to have the licence to rip off other
peoples
> hard work? Maybe! but so long as they copy the good MUDs and leave the
> sh*t behind. They should also be true to themselves. Those that
believe in
> originality should give honour on to whom it is due: be it the
creators of
> LPmud, DIKU, AberMUD, MUD or whoever they feel, in their hearts, are
> originators.
I believe in giving credit when it's due, but there comes a time, when
you can no longer do that. Did LPmud give credit to MUD? Did MUD give
Credit to Zork or Adventure? (They may have, I seem to recall in an
article that I read that they did)
> What is it that gives a creator the original idea in the first place?
Do they
> discover it by accident? Is it a gift from God? Or where they just
born with
> the ability? In which case, should we be given them credit at all.
Should we
> not rather by honouring God or their mother?
Huh? You know, there was this guy who in 1898(or was it early 1900's?)
petitioned to close the patent office, because he believed that
everything had been invented.
rric...@lanminds.com
L Simpson) wrote:
>as...@wsunix.wsu.edu wrote:
>
>: Only a couple of months? I'm impressed. You found coders who are
>: going to be able to create a totally original combat system, magic
>: system, skill system, character creation system, level system all in a
>: few months? If their that good please sign me up!
>
>To what extent can any MUD claim to be original? To some extent, all MUDs
>contain features which can be found in their predecessors, or were possible
>in their predecessors just that no one was fortunate enough to see the idea.
>Or those that did see it, never implemented it. So who originated the idea,
>the new MUD or the old? In many respects, even the most modern MUD contains
>aspects which can be found in the original MUD.
>
>If a MUD contained anything which was truly original, would it be a MUD
>anymore? Is it possible to have change, but no change? Either all
>modification to MUDs produce originals, no matter how slight the change,
>or none of them are originals, nor can they be. It is very difficult to
>judge.
>
This sounds like the old "There are only 7 plots to stories, so all
books are a variation of one of those plots, and none of them are
original" argument. Having said that, if you can't see the difference
between Stephen King and Lovecraft, then I will have to agree with you
that there is no such thing as "originality".
Kira Skydancer
Remove "not" when replying by email
Marc Bowden
"Whatever our theme in writing, it is old and tired. Whatever our place,
it has been visited by the stranger, it will never be new again.
It is only the vision that can be new; but that is enough.
Every story would be another story, and unrecognizable if it took up
its
characters and plot and happened somewhere else ... Fiction depends for
its
life on place. Place is the crossroads of circumstance, the proving ground
of,
What happened? Who's here? Who's coming?..." ã Eudora Welty
======================================================================
Marc Bowden - Soulsinger D R E A M S H A D O W
Human Resources Director --------------------------
The Legacy of the Three
dreamer.telmaron.com 3333 or 206.246.120.2 3333 ry...@merit.edu
"We did not choose to become the guardians, but there is no one else."
======================================================================
Sterling
>In article <7n1qe6$c68$1...@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
>
>Excuse me? So if I take J.R.R. Tolkiens LotR series, and change the
>main charcters race from Hobbit to Gully dwarf, does that make it
>original?
And if you took the search for the golden fleece of mythology and replaced
the searchers with hobbits and the fleece with a ring and the trials they
have to face with different trials...
And if you took the search for the holy grail of mythology and replaced the
searchers with hobbits and the fleece with a ring and the trials they have
to face with different trials...
etc. Don't extoll the virtues of originality and use cliched (albeit
well-written) literature as a point of contention.
>
>Huh? You know, there was this guy who in 1898(or was it early 1900's?)
>petitioned to close the patent office, because he believed that
>everything had been invented.
>
"There is nothing new under the sun." -- King Solomon
Sterling @ Wyld Knight
(who is creating a truly "original" mud that will be played by 11 players
per side who line up against each other and try to move a spherical object
through the opposing players and to the opposite side of the playing field)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wyld Knight - wyld.qx.net 3333
http://wyld.qx.net/~rezo
re...@lords.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
as...@wsunix.wsu.edu
re...@darkstar.qx.net (Sterling) wrote:
*sigh*, And Win95 is from MacOS, so? And nothing that Shakespeare
wrote is not original either. There are only 7 plots, I'd have to dig
out my Joesph Campbell booe, to look them up. But so what? The point
is, small changes does not make a system original, large sweeping
changes, do.
>
> Sterling @ Wyld Knight
> (who is creating a truly "original" mud that will be played by 11
players
> per side who line up against each other and try to move a spherical
object
> through the opposing players and to the opposite side of the playing
field)
*LOL* This was pretty good.
Krago
bec...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> For anyone else out there who may be infected by the thirst for original
> mudding, I offer this one piece of advice.. GET OFF YER REARS AND MAKE A MUD!
>
There are alternatives to this. Since not all of us are blessed with the skills
to code (I mean really code...not only the technical skills but the creativity
to realize what can be done with the code) or even the capacity to learn those
skills, we have to turn to alternatives. As the IMP (non-coding, admin puke) of
a wonderful world, I realize the importance of these people. They can tell me
(I have to trust them to some degree, right? ;) ) not only what can be done with
my ideas, but how long it would take to implement them. No matter how good some
ideas seem, they aren't always worth the time. Sometimes it is better to
implement 5 great ideas instead of attempting one fantastic one. Well, that's
my philosophy... ;)
Anyway, back to 'other options'. If you can find a world that has many or most
of the features you like in a mud, but is boring to you, try writing an area for
it. For the vast majority of MUDs out there, area writing is much easier from a
technical standpoint. You have to have an intense creativity, but don't have to
learn C in 21 days. Well, it's helpful to have the intense creativity... You
will also find that there aren't too many muds, especially those who aren't in
the "Top 5 Muds of All Time", will welcome any help they can get. Get an idea
for an area together in your mind and present it to the IMP of your favorite
world. It certainly can't hurt, and there are tons of helpfull pages out there
for aspiring builders. Even I have such a help file and can even write an
area! Not bad for an IMP who spells 'C' incorrectly 5 times out of 7. (Ok, so
I can do some C, but I don't mind acknowledging my faults).
If this idea doesn't appeal to you, then don't despair. Try playing your
favorite mud more. Become more involved. Voice ideas to the immortals.
Comment on the mud you are playing. If you are not degrading or rude with your
comments, they will listen to you (although they may not act on all of your
ideas). If they won't even listen, spurn your opinions and don't want the ideas
or creatice criticism of the players, then move along. Any mud who discourages
this won't make it in the long run. I am not talking about sending in 20 ideas
for pkill on a non-pkill mud. Work with the world you are in already. Have
your ideas complement the existing mud. I am ssuming that it already has many
of the features you like anyway. After a while (it takes a while, like any
worthwhile endeavor) you may become a valuable part of the mud, someone whose
ideas are respected and even acted upon. Besides, it's still probably quicker
than coding a truly 'original' mud from scratch to full fruition.
Anyway, the thoughts of a jolly ol dwarf have brought me from lurker status.
After reading this newsgroup for the last 3 years this is my first post, so now
I'll just sit back and wait for the flames ;)
Krago
asgard.viviano.net
Marc Hernandez
: In article <slrn7pbjn...@darkstar.qx.net>,
: re...@darkstar.qx.net (Sterling) wrote:
: *sigh*, And Win95 is from MacOS, so? And nothing that Shakespeare
ACTUALLY (oops AOL key off) they are from the Xerox Altair. Lots
of smart people at Xerox to come up with a unique way for interacting with
the computer (and it had multiple mouse buttons and context sensitive
menus).
Marc Hernandez
Trinity
there are four basic kinds of muds:
1: The "I've converted every Anonymud zone I could find" mud. These
have no theme, regardless of what the first year compsci majors that
imp it try and tell you. Mahn-Tor is located three moves from MegaCity
1, combined with novelty zones based off of cult movies. These muds
advertise themselves as having "150 zones!" but what they don't tell
you is that 135 of them are utter trash, and no player has explored
them since the day the mud launched.
2: The "D&D is my life" mud. We've all seen a grillion of these. They
remain somewhat in theme, but this is only because the Imps tossed out
any zone that didn't include dragons or elves. Whether it's a WoT mud,
a tolkien mud, or a stock Circle/Rom doesn't matter. Gary Gygyx is
written all over these muds in letters ten feet tall.
3: The Ultra Fanboy Startrek/wars/whatever mud. These are created
mainly so the imps can play the major characters in whatever movie/book
they're ripping off. For the most part they end up being Talkers,
because other than labling Midgaard as "Spacedock 9", they don't do
much to make the game fit the genre they've chosen.
4: The honest to God Themed mud. You don't see many of these. They're
seldom based on books or movies, but are rather set in "periods".
People don't play them because they can't find Ghenna. =) They
typically have six zones, because that's where the builders lost steam
and gave up on the whole darn concept.
My suggestion to anyone starting a new game is this: If your vision of
a new and exciting mud is "It's got dragons, but get this, they talk",
then give it up and just run a Type 1 mud. Ain't a person alive that's
going to appreciate the subtle genius of your plan.
Grenik
wrote:
>After reading the threads regarding original mud themes, I submit that
>there are four basic kinds of muds:
>
[snip]
>
>My suggestion to anyone starting a new game is this: If your vision of
>a new and exciting mud is "It's got dragons, but get this, they talk",
>then give it up and just run a Type 1 mud. Ain't a person alive that's
>going to appreciate the subtle genius of your plan.
You run into a very large problem when tyring to make a "original" mud
as you seem to be describing it. Out of every 20 people that connect
to your game, only 1 will actually appreciate it.
In my experience, most people run in compact mode so they do not see
the descriptions. Noone reads the extra descriptions you put in an
area or looks at the extra objects.
If it has different classes or spells (even if they are just the same
spells with a new name and slightly different effect) 95% of the
people will consider it "new" regardless of what the areas look like.
Noone really wants to "hunt" for things, and seem to get upset when
the fountain has been moved. (Move the fountain one east in Midgaard
and see how many people yell. People seem generally upset that their
drink trigger no longer works and they have to fill their container
the "hard" way.)
Most Admins seem to count success by their player base. "I have 53.6
average players on at one time, so my mud is better than yours." With
that mentality, you create to the lowest common denomenator. That is
stock type muds with things relatively unchanged.
While I agree with your characterization of muds in general, I think
they are just providing what the majority of the players want.
-Grenik
Admin - Seeker's Realm
luna.cs.unm.edu:2000
sthrngypsy
>do not see the descriptions. Noone reads the extra
>descriptions you put in an area or looks at
>the extra objects.
Make it so they have to read the descriptions or stand a
good chance of dying with an irretrievable corpse. Add
built in quests so they have to read the extras and
descriptions in order to solve them. True, after they know
the zone, they may still turn brief on, but at least the
work will not have been wasted:).
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Trinity
<gre...@pd.jaring.my> wrote:
> You run into a very large problem when tyring to make a "original" mud
> as you seem to be describing it. Out of every 20 people that connect
> to your game, only 1 will actually appreciate it.
I agree, my "subtle genius" remark was meant to be sarcastic. =)
People only tend to notice large, sweeping differences when it comes to
muds.
> In my experience, most people run in compact mode so they do not see
> the descriptions. Noone reads the extra descriptions you put in an
> area or looks at the extra objects.
That's because muds now days have been diluted so much that there's
little point in reading the descriptions. But I agree, most folks go
to brief and stay there. But that's a problem with the way the mud is
created. In a true exploration mud, folks don't run in Brief as much.
> (Move the fountain one east in Midgaard
> and see how many people yell.
hehehehe. I once set the fountain to hold an instantly fatal poison.
Now THAT made people scream. I replied "What the hell do you think
your "detect poison" spell is for?!?" =)
> While I agree with your characterization of muds in general, I think
> they are just providing what the majority of the players want.
Yes, this is true to a certain extent. But have you noticed that the
average time a player sticks with a mud has been steadily decreasing?
Back when I started mudding, folks would stay with one mud for at least
a year, sometimes more. NOW people get bored and burnt out in a month
or so. I think this is because muds now days put far too much emphasis
on powergaming, and it gets boring quickly.
Most muds are run by ex-mudders, not by game designers. I'm unsure if
it's truly that the PLAYERS want ungodly Monty Haul muds, or if it's
just that each new IMP tosses in a grillion extra hitpoints/crackfiend
damroll items just so they can say "The top end of damage on "Lands O'
Munchkins" is ten billion cubed!" =)
If/when I finish the mud I'm currently coding, "fly" will be a spell
folks will actually envy. 1,000 hp will seem like a lot. And folks
will have to actually explore if they want to have decent EQ. =) And
if/when I finally put it online, I won't particularly care if only five
people play it. Which is probably all I'll get. *grin*
TechDude
really hard not to faint and fall over)
The Mud dreams.sierranv.net 8100
The Story: http://dreams.sierranv.net
A really "original" mud... that's been around for over seven years and is
still being modified every day! It's Electric Dreams. It has a history
from the beginning of time to the present day on each of the four planets.
There are many cities, towns, etc. and everything works together. 1000 hp
is amazingly high, the balance is perfect, and no other mud in the world (in
my opinion) has ever come this close to being real. If you're not into
killing, you can get a career mining, weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, etc and
sell your goods and get a nice home and raise a family. Or you can just
hack and slash your way to the top, but it isn't easy! It requires thought,
and lots of reading. I don't know anyone who's hit the brief command, and I
know almost every step of the MUD, and still read the descriptions! No
level-based eq....hey that's just not realistic...I can't go into wal-mart
and get pants that are my level...it just doesn't happen. Skills and spells
aren't just trained and practiced, but must be mastered by use, and by your
powers over the elements. And if you get tired of walking around, just dive
into the seas on the planet Nenkemen and explore the vast oceans, or board a
fishing boat or ship and sail into the sunset! Take your friends into the
forests of Maegmenel and hunt the big game. Or travel the deserts of
Lithdor; ride with the caravan to the various cities such as Grethor, the
city built within a mountain! To add to the realism, room descriptions are
color-coded by sector type, so you always know what the terrain is like.
And of course, continuing with complete originality, there are no races such
as Human, Elf, Dwarf....Instead, your race decided by the planet you wish to
call home. Interplanetary travel is possible, but not easy, and you may
find that citizens on the other globes may not welcome you with open arms!
And beware, because in the shadows the Dark Leader watches you from afar.
Oh man, there's more. You can have good and bad dreams, but I can't even
begin to explain that in a usenet post. Horse racing is great fun, and an
easy way to lose millions of dollars in just a few minutes, and never borrow
more from the loan sharks than you can pay back, because the thugs that come
after you aren't very nice!
I'm a mud admin myself, and know that my mud will NEVER be anything like the
world described above. I've been playing it for many many years, and most of
the players that stick around, never leave. The number of players has
dropped to about six since the mud moved to a new server earlier this year,
but the number of players doesn't make a mud good, the personalities and
attitudes of players is what counts.
The mud described above is not recommended for people who don't want to LIVE
the MUD experience...you really have to pay attention to stay alive.
The code? Dreams 1.0 (and you ROM/DIKU people are just gonna have to try
really hard not to faint and fall over)
The Mud dreams.sierranv.net 8100
The Story: http://dreams.sierranv.net
And moving the fountain in Midgaard...how evil....first thing I did when I
downloaded a mud was to wipe the stock areas out immediately. That really
pissed players off!!
Trinity <dead_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:230719991515594124%dead_p...@hotmail.com...
Larnen
> In article <379e2ec6...@nntp.jaring.my>, Grenik
> <gre...@pd.jaring.my> wrote:
>
> Yes, this is true to a certain extent. But have you noticed that the
> average time a player sticks with a mud has been steadily decreasing?
> Back when I started mudding, folks would stay with one mud for at least
> a year, sometimes more. NOW people get bored and burnt out in a month
> or so. I think this is because muds now days put far too much emphasis
> on powergaming, and it gets boring quickly.
>
Speak for yourself :) Elephant Mud is coming up on 7 years old, and still
has
many of its original players. 3-4 years is a fairly average length of time
for people to play.
> Most muds are run by ex-mudders, not by game designers. I'm unsure if
> it's truly that the PLAYERS want ungodly Monty Haul muds, or if it's
> just that each new IMP tosses in a grillion extra hitpoints/crackfiend
> damroll items just so they can say "The top end of damage on "Lands O'
> Munchkins" is ten billion cubed!" =)
I guess we have the advantage that most of our Arch Wizards are also
experienced RPG refs. Personally Ive run RPGs for over 15 years,
written traditional computer text games, and run live roleplaying
sessions for the UKs largest LRPG. Avoiding being populist and
driven by the basic desire of most players to be 'rock' is an important
point. It is oh-so easy to get into an inflationary spiral in skills and
raw power, not just money.
> If/when I finish the mud I'm currently coding, "fly" will be a spell
> folks will actually envy. 1,000 hp will seem like a lot. And folks
> will have to actually explore if they want to have decent EQ. =) And
> if/when I finally put it online, I won't particularly care if only five
> people play it. Which is probably all I'll get. *grin*
Ahh, but WHAT a five :) Gotta be better than 200 1ee+ h@x0r d00dz :)
Larnen
as...@wsunix.wsu.edu
brief. Then they can't run around with it on. Then you can say, "The
room description was littered with warnings about the DeathTrap, it's
not my fault, or the code's fault, it's yours!"
<sarcasm> Why give the players an option? </sarcasm>
--
as...@wsunix.wsu.edu
"TechDude" <tech...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The code? Dreams 1.0 (and you ROM/DIKU people are just gonna have
to try
> really hard not to faint and fall over)
> The Mud dreams.sierranv.net 8100
> The Story: http://dreams.sierranv.net
Whee, isn't it always fun when a serious discussion breaks down into,
gee, look at this great mud, it's exactly what you are looking for.
TechDude: Doesn't sound too original to me, new races, useless skills,
and lots of areas do not original make. To be original, A mud must
have an original concept. And A concept stands up on it's own. If the
concept is not original then the mud looks like a hodgepodge of things
just thrown together.
Here's an Original concept: BeeHive, the all new mud, where you, yes
you, are a bee! fly from flower to flower collecting pollen to garnish
praise from the queen. or play as an angry wasp, ready to attack and
destroy the hive of happy bees. Invent new 'B' dances, and learn what
it's like to be a bee.
<Looks around startled, did I _just_ think that up?>
--
Richard Woolcock
>
> The code? Dreams 1.0 (and you ROM/DIKU people are just gonna have to try
> really hard not to faint and fall over)
>
> still being modified every day!
It's based on Rom 2.3, which in turn is based on Merc 2.1. I'm not sure
when Rom was released, but Merc 2.1 was distributed on Sunday 1st August
1993. What you're claiming is that this "Dreams" code is older than it's
own grandparent - possibly even older than it's own great grandparent.
KaVir.
Trinity
<moon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Some people turn brief on after they have mapped the area
> and know it well enough to lead it. Why NOT give players an
> option, whenever possible?
Brief is useful for one thing: Speedwalking. That's the only time I'd
use it as a player, or encourage it as an Imp. I guarantee that when
I'm building, I include things in the Long that are critical to the
game.
us...@host.com
>use it as a player, or encourage it as an Imp. I guarantee that when
>I'm building, I include things in the Long that are critical to the
>game.
Brief is invaluable when logging rp. I don't need dozens of copies
of the same room descriptions sitting on my hard drive, especially
if they're as long and detailed.
Aristotle
>Brief is useful for one thing: Speedwalking. That's the only time I'd
>use it as a player, or encourage it as an Imp. I guarantee that when
>I'm building, I include things in the Long that are critical to the
>game.
It is also useful because when people use brief in areas they have been many
times (and thus wont read the descriptions anyway) the reduction in text saves
bandwidth.
-Aristotle@Threshold
--
Threshold was an exhibitor at Dragon*Con '99.
Dragon*Con Pictures: http://www.threshold-rpg.com/dcon/
==============================================================================
VISIT THRESHOLD - Online Fantasy Roleplaying Game. Player run clans, guilds,
legal system, economy, religions, nobility, and more in a mature environment.
http://www.threshold-rpg.com -**- telnet://threshold-rpg.com:23
Daniel A. Koepke
On Jul 30, us...@host.com whispered unto you:
> Brief is invaluable when logging rp. I don't need dozens of copies of
> the same room descriptions sitting on my hard drive, especially if
> they're as long and detailed.
Why is the mud sending you descriptions of stuff you have already seen?
Brief is like blocking out the sun to prevent sunburn. The mud need only
be smarter about what it sends. That is, it shouldn't send me stuff that
my character wouldn't care about. If I'm fighting and type "look" I
shouldn't see a description of the trees and the birds and how peaceful
the surroundings are.
The philosophy, condensed to a line, is then: Make the mud better informed
rather than allow the player to be uninformed.
-dak : Remove the S...P...A...M...
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Holly Sommer
> >use it as a player, or encourage it as an Imp. I guarantee that when
> >I'm building, I include things in the Long that are critical to the
> >game.
>
> of the same room descriptions sitting on my hard drive, especially
> if they're as long and detailed.
Brief can be made less "appealing" by encouraging builders to continue
working on their areas. Suppose you've got an outdoorsy area -- natural
disasters and the weather are likely to shape the terrain, so why not
drop a creek in the middle of what was once just rolling hills? A flood
could do that :)
Keep the area fresh, and players will be FORCED to keep their eyes open,
so to speak, unless they enjoy going on autopilot, and not knowing where
they'll wind up ;)
-Holly
Trinity
felt that each room had to include a huge Long desc. Later I felt that
the average room Long desc should be no more than two sentances.
But lately I've noticed a trend in muds to make the room descs nearly
pointless. I've mentioned the Omni-Mud trend before, but basically the
problem is that a lot of Admins are screwing up the genre for all of
us. The give -everyone- in the game unlimited Relocate/Summon/Door
abilities, thereby eliminating the need for room descs as a
navigation/ambiance tool.
I find myself wanting to hunt down and pimp-slap every single
Implementor that's decided to try and attract players by giving folks
Wiz level transportation abilities at low levels. One mud I play,
Clandestine, has a class that gets unlimited Door at level 15. Players
can Door to any mob or eq, with no cost in mana or movement.
Half the players on the mud don't know how to get to zones ten moves
away without Dooring. It's pathetic. All folks do is spend all day
Dooring to Leveling or EQ mobs. The rooms themselves are pointless;
the builders might as well not even bother adding descs at all.
I'd personally like to see a return to classic mudding, where the room
descriptions actually mattered. The mud I'm currently coding doesn't
even have Recall scrolls, that's how committed I am to making folks
explore the mud. =) If they get lost... well, back in my day, mapping
the mud was half the game.
Nyarlathotep
>the mud was half the game.
*rofl* Sorry, all I could picture right there was some wrinkled, ancient guy
in double-knit, plaid golf pants hitched up to his nipples, with a Linda
Blair green jersey, carpal tunnel syndrome and pointy hair, ranting about
"In MY day we had to walk 20 miles to Mahn-Tor, in hip-deep snow, uphill,
both ways!"
I have to say I agree with you, though. And I'm sure you've noticed a
proliferation of MUDs with zones that actually CAN'T be mapped using any
known method of cartography. It just seems the builder set down the room
exits at random. Which is why the builders of the MUD I'm designing are
required to map their zones out on graph paper, or a well-detailed graphic
file, then either scan & E-Mail or copy & snail-mail it to me (I pay the
costs, if necessary), coupled with some sample room descs, mobs, objects, &
progs before their zone submission is even considered. *grin* A little
harsh, and not good for fast development of zones, but the quality of those
zones is phenomonal. There will be a few minor transportation "spells" (not
an accurate description, but close enough), for some powerful characters,
but most others will rely on their feet, mounts, or the expensive and
dangerous caravans that occasionally pass by (gets attacked by brigands on a
regular basis). Of course, I'm sure most players would be turned off by
this. But take a moment to imagine the players who stay, especially given my
rather Nazi-ish approach to RP. *cackle*
Another pointless message by:
-Nyarlathotep
Mickelian
"Nyarlathotep" <nyarla...@spammer.extermination.com> wrote:
> I have to say I agree with you, though. And I'm sure you've noticed a
> proliferation of MUDs with zones that actually CAN'T be mapped using
> any known method of cartography. It just seems the builder set down
> the room exits at random.
*smile* On the other hand, I'm remembering a builder we used to have
who complained endlessly because the base town in Lars' mudlib "couldn't
be mapped". You see, if you start in the General Store and go south,
west, north, east, you wind up in an alley, and he thought that meant
that the alley and the store were occupying the same place. In fact,
you went south out of the store, west to the nearest intersection, north
to the next intersection beyond that, then east into the alley that ran
*behind* the store. I can't count the number of times I tried to
explain just one thing to him: Not All Rooms Are The Same Size!
One of my latest projects would probably irk both of you to no end.
I've got an entire world that builds rooms randomly on a coordinate
grid. The rooms there are all the same size and the exits in new rooms
are matched with exits in existing ones, so they'll map cleanly, but
that map won't be of any use next time you visit the area. Monsters and
other objects of interest are placed randomly when the room is created,
selected from a multidimensional array arranged by room type and
distance from the origin point.
--
Visit us at Dreamshadow today! -
telnet: dreamer.telmaron.com 3333
http://homestead.dejanews.com/dreamshadow/DreamshadowMain.html
Nyarlathotep
>west, north, east, you wind up in an alley, and he thought that meant
>that the alley and the store were occupying the same place. In fact,
>you went south out of the store, west to the nearest intersection, north
>to the next intersection beyond that, then east into the alley that ran
>*behind* the store. I can't count the number of times I tried to
>explain just one thing to him: Not All Rooms Are The Same Size!
In the case of this policy (mine), it MUST be possible to map the zone on
graph paper (ie., you would have to travel, from the inside of the general
store, if the store were one vnum, south, west, then TWO north, then east to
be behind the shop, since otherwise it occupies the same square on the
grid). While rooms are, granted, of differing size, general areas should be
roughly akin to one another. Overland wilderness will be generally the same
size parcels of land, etc. Gets rid of some irritating problems when players
are stripped of most of their ability to teleport. :)
-Nyarlathotep
Mickelian
"Nyarlathotep" <nyarla...@spammer.extermination.com> wrote:
> In the case of this policy (mine), it MUST be possible to map the zone
> on graph paper (ie., you would have to travel, from the inside of the
> general store, if the store were one vnum, south, west, then TWO
> north, then east to be behind the shop, since otherwise it occupies
> the same square on the grid). While rooms are, granted, of differing
> size, general areas should be roughly akin to one another. Overland
> wilderness will be generally the same size parcels of land, etc. Gets
> rid of some irritating problems when players are stripped of most of
> their ability to teleport. :)
So all rooms have to be the same size? For instance, if you go north
from room A to get into a house, then travel west, north, north through
the house to get into a small bathroom, the west again to get into the
linen closet, does that mean that you'd have to go west, west, west,
north, north, north to get from a wilderness room A at the front door of
the house to a point just off of the northwest corner of the house?
If the distance travelled from room A to the northwest corner of the
house is about 120 feet, does that mean that each room is about 20 feet
across? What if the house is located three miles away from the nearest
town? How many rooms is that?
I agree with the idea of having worlds be generally mappable, but I
allow myself some leeway by using the concept of different map scales.
As long as the transition is pretty obvious, say going from a wilderness
area into a city or a building, switching to a different scale is
perfectly acceptable. I don't see a problem in letting you go
northeast, northwest to get around a house in the woods, even if there
are 20 rooms in that house. Otherwise I think any kind of large area
would become unmanagable. (Working in a situation like ours, where each
"area" can be an entire universe into itself would be impossible, I
think.)
Jp Calderone
>
> Mickelian wrote:
> > You see, if you start in the General Store and go south,
> >west, north, east, you wind up in an alley, and he thought that meant
> >that the alley and the store were occupying the same place. In fact,
> >you went south out of the store, west to the nearest intersection, north
> >to the next intersection beyond that, then east into the alley that ran
> >*behind* the store. I can't count the number of times I tried to
> >explain just one thing to him: Not All Rooms Are The Same Size!
This is just a problem with standard mappers of course - it still makes
sense as a layout if you can get that simple fact that "Not All Rooms Are
The Same Size!" :) What is worse, and what some builders turn out are the
equivalent of: start at th general store, go south, then east, then west,
then north and end up in an abandoned mine several miles outside town.
>
> In the case of this policy (mine), it MUST be possible to map the zone on
> graph paper (ie., you would have to travel, from the inside of the general
> store, if the store were one vnum, south, west, then TWO north, then east to
> be behind the shop, since otherwise it occupies the same square on the
> grid). While rooms are, granted, of differing size, general areas should be
> roughly akin to one another. Overland wilderness will be generally the same
> size parcels of land, etc. Gets rid of some irritating problems when players
> are stripped of most of their ability to teleport. :)
A good policy for sure. I doubt your players thank you for it, but they
should :)
There can certainly be cases where "illogical" room connections make sense
though, and they simply /won't/ fit onto a 2 dimensional map. Most of
these are fantastic in nature (But did you ever see that Star Trek where
no matter where they went, space was distorted so they ended up right where
they started? ;) So with my builders, I make sure everything is connected
in a way that makes sense to the theme and to the area. If that means
something that isn't strictly a "correct" connection, then great, and let
the players work it out.
--
No, `Eureka' is Greek for `This bath is too hot.'
-- Dr. Who
Trinity
<nyarla...@spammer.extermination.com> wrote:
> "In MY day we had to walk 20 miles to Mahn-Tor, in hip-deep snow, uphill,
> both ways!"
...beating up Amyrok with a three ring binder!
Yup, this is exactly the joke me n' my fellow imps constantly toss
around. "You spoiled youngsters these days, with your fancy "wimp"
commands! In my day, we fought until we died! None of this "fleeing"
for us!"
> I have to say I agree with you, though. And I'm sure you've noticed a
> proliferation of MUDs with zones that actually CAN'T be mapped using any
> known method of cartography.
Oh lord, how I hate zones like this! I finally gave up on Builders.
Every single room of my mud was created by one person: Me. Yeah, I
have far, FAR fewer zones than the average mud, but at least I have the
knowledge that the darn rooms connect logically.
-description of Byzantine and cruel zone submission process snipped-
> *grin* A little harsh, and not good for fast development of zones, but the quality of those
> zones is phenomonal.
Not harsh at all, in my opinion. There's nothing worse than trash
zones. Bravo for you. At least you're still -allowing- outside
builders. =)
> There will be a few minor transportation "spells" (not
> an accurate description, but close enough), for some powerful characters,
> but most others will rely on their feet, mounts, or the expensive and
> dangerous caravans that occasionally pass by (gets attacked by brigands on a
> regular basis). Of course, I'm sure most players would be turned off by
> this. But take a moment to imagine the players who stay, especially given my
> rather Nazi-ish approach to RP. *cackle*
Nods. I'd rather have 20 regular players of quality than 100 regular
players that suck. I run a mud for -my- amusement, not the amusement
of a bunch of jaded power-gamers. I'm friends with almost every player
in my mud, and we have a great time. I'm glad to see that there are
still imps out there like us.
Trinity
<mwi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> One of my latest projects would probably irk both of you to no end.
> I've got an entire world that builds rooms randomly on a coordinate
> grid. The rooms there are all the same size and the exits in new rooms
> are matched with exits in existing ones, so they'll map cleanly, but
> that map won't be of any use next time you visit the area. Monsters and
> other objects of interest are placed randomly when the room is created,
> selected from a multidimensional array arranged by room type and
> distance from the origin point.
It wouldn't irk me if such a setup is consistant with the theme and
style of your mud. If your mud is based on the concept that your
universe alters randomly, then more power to you.
What bugs me is sloppy work by Builders, and laziness by Imps. Fer
instance, anyone that's ported Mahn-Tor knows about it's "magical
disappearing door" problem. The first time you get slaughtered by
Gorak because you can't find the door you just came through, you want
to strangle the original Builder. =)
Grenik
wrote:
>
>I find myself wanting to hunt down and pimp-slap every single
>Implementor that's decided to try and attract players by giving folks
>Wiz level transportation abilities at low levels. One mud I play,
>Clandestine, has a class that gets unlimited Door at level 15. Players
>can Door to any mob or eq, with no cost in mana or movement.
You could probably save some of your ire for the players. I think I
mentoined this before in a simular post, but players (by this I mean
the "average" mud players) do not need to have detailed descriptions
to enjoy the game. They like to log on, forget about the outside
world for a bit, and spend some time with their "mud friends".
Do not get me wrong, as an Admin and previous Builder, I insist on
well written, imaginative areas. I am currently disapointed that my
own mud has as many stock areas as it does. However, I do this more
on "general principle" than because I think so many players will get
more enjoyment from my mud becuse of the room descriptions.
Some* players do demand a higher quality, and I recognize that, but I
really think that muds in general have a certain evolution quality.
They evolve to what the average player wants, and (unfortunately),
that does not really mean great room descriptions.
>
>Half the players on the mud don't know how to get to zones ten moves
>away without Dooring. It's pathetic. All folks do is spend all day
>Dooring to Leveling or EQ mobs.
Again, it is pathetic that the imps allowed them to do it, or that the
players do not care enough about it to go explore? When I play, I no
longer care how many levels I get, or how many great new skills, or
that I killed a certain Mob at a certain level. When I play (and I
get to do that less frequently than I would like) I look through other
muds areas. Explore their world and skills, but it is because that is
what *I* like. I do not think you can force that on others that do
not want/enjoy it.
>The rooms themselves are pointless;
>the builders might as well not even bother adding descs at all.
>
>I'd personally like to see a return to classic mudding, where the room
>descriptions actually mattered. The mud I'm currently coding doesn't
>even have Recall scrolls, that's how committed I am to making folks
>explore the mud. =) If they get lost... well, back in my day, mapping
>the mud was half the game.
Best wishes on your current project,
Nyarlathotep
As much as morts dislike it, it is the IMP who pays for the server, keeps
the MUD under control, ends up doing most of the work no matter how many
IMMs are currently "working", etc. And why does an IMP put him/herself
through this nightmarish, hellish agony? Because it's fun for the IMP... and
he/she is prolly a masochist, but that's not important right now. At any
rate, an Implementor would be best off, for his/her own sanity, to create a
MUD that conforms to his/her own ideal configuration. Unless, of course, you
run a pay-to-play MUD, in which case that's a whole different can o' worms.
Bottom line, kids, is that players are gonna play on yer MUD no matter what,
provided you can get the name out there. There's all different manner of
players, anywhere from the newbie, lamer, Korn-listenin' hack n slashers,
to... ya know... ME, the very EPITOME of MUD RP divinity. Might as well make
it the way YOU want it, then you're going to enjoy the work, the MUD will
prosper, and the players will enjoy themselves, as well. Nyarlathotep out.
-Nyarlathotep, Ranter Supreme
Trinity
<gre...@pd.jaring.my> wrote:
> >Half the players on the mud don't know how to get to zones ten moves
> >away without Dooring. It's pathetic. All folks do is spend all day
> >Dooring to Leveling or EQ mobs.
>
> Again, it is pathetic that the imps allowed them to do it, or that the
> players do not care enough about it to go explore?
Players certainly can't be expected to do anything that puts them at a
disadvantage to other players. Even the most dedicated role player
isn't going to walk from zone to zone if they can simply Door there.
It's not the player's fault, IMHO.
Especially if the mud is slapped together from stock/common zones..
Then there's no reason at all to walk around and explore.
> When I play (and I
> get to do that less frequently than I would like) I look through other
> muds areas.
Me too, but the problem with a lot of muds is all they have are stock
zones, Anonymud zones, and a few CAW zones. There's little point in
exploring these places.
> I do not think you can force that on others that do
> not want/enjoy it.
Imps force others to do what they enjoy all the time. This is why we
run muds. =)
> Best wishes on your current project,
Thanks. It won't be open till the end of the year (given that I'm the
only person creating it) but it's coming alone quite well.
Trinity
Topic: Races.
At the most basic, the only difference between races in most muds is a
few minor tweaks in starting stats. This is unfortunate, because most
modern muds either allow you to increase stats during game play, or
have enough magic EQ that the average player walks around with maxed
stats anyway. These sort of muds, with the traditional "human, elf,
dwarf" racial characteristics, regulate race to a very minor role.
Even at it's best, races seem to be little more than a method of giving
permanent spells to players, many of which are superflous. For
instance, Avian races are created that grant the power of Flying,
despite the fact that most muds have very few "flying" zones worth
exploring. (The reason for this is simple. Mud Builders live in fear
that nobody will visit their zones. Thus, there's no way in hell
they're going to build Mid-Air zones unless they're assured that
-everyone- on the mud is capable of flying.) Further, since almost
every spell caster can fly, and cast fly on others, the Avian races
become pointless. Especially in light of the fact that there is always
some negative stat tweak associated with the so-called "advantage" of
flight.
Even worse, many muds create races with clear advantages, but none of
the logical disadvantages that would be associated with a given race.
Vampire races are created, but then allowed to function in daylight.
Aquatic races are spawned, but allowed to function on land in exactly
the same manner as any other race.
Then of course, there's the question of how your "Giant Sponge" race
manages to wear boots, gloves, and a helmet. The codebase I'm
currently working with allows each race to have it's own set of
bodyparts, but many Muds simply assume that all races are humanoid,
regardless of common sense.
I'd become so disenchanted with races that I nearly removed them from
my mud. The theme of my mud is such that it requires actual,
non-fantasy races. Yet how does one accomplish this in today's world?
While it's perfectly fine to say "Elves are more intelligent than
humans", I'd be crucified if I built a mud where Asians had a higher
Int stat than Europeans. No, that's not quite true, as long as I had
Europeans as the weakest, least intelligent race, I'd be fine. =) But
the second I gave a Caucasian race -any- advantage over a non-Caucasian
race, I'd be skinned alive. It's no wonder that nobody attempts a Mud
based on anything other than D&D.
Has anyone here worked with Racial traits beyond the basic Stat Tweak,
add perm spells methods? Or more directly to the point of my current
issues: Has anyone tried using actual races, instead of fantasy races?
(One might ask: "Why are you using real races, Trinity?" The answer:
My mud isn't set in a D&D environment. It's a fantasy world, but one
without orcs, giants and elves. It's somewhat Historical, and is set
in a recent time period when the nationalities of the different clans
are very important. Imagine building a game set around WWII without
being able to refer to nationality, and you'll see roughly the sort of
problem I'm facing.)
Mickelian
Bullseye! You want the kewpie doll or the giant teddy bear?
Ya gots ta make the mud that *you* wanna play. You make the mud that
you want, and the players who stay will be the players who like your
mud. You'll have a lot more fun hanging out with them than with the
guys who leave.
Martijn van der Kleijn
[snip]
> At the most basic, the only difference between races in most muds is a
> few minor tweaks in starting stats. This is unfortunate, because most
> modern muds either allow you to increase stats during game play, or
> have enough magic EQ that the average player walks around with maxed
> stats anyway. These sort of muds, with the traditional "human, elf,
> dwarf" racial characteristics, regulate race to a very minor role.
I'm currently working on a new mud codebase, still in the design stage,
and plan to use races. Apart from the startup tweaks, I'm planning on
maximum and (possibly) minimum stats. Also, I'm pondering different
reactions of npc's depending on the race of npc and pc... And offcourse,
each race has its own language.
[snip]
> Then of course, there's the question of how your "Giant Sponge" race
> manages to wear boots, gloves, and a helmet. The codebase I'm
> currently working with allows each race to have it's own set of
> bodyparts, but many Muds simply assume that all races are humanoid,
> regardless of common sense.
I'm still unsure wether I should allow different body parts... It has
advantages and disadvantages.
[snip]
Greetz, Martijn
Email: swallow at dds dot nl
Grenik
wrote:
>#3 in the Trinity rant series, collect em' all:
>
>Topic: Races.
>
Basically, I would agree with most of what you said. I would point
out a cople things. Some people do add racial skills and spells. In
Rom, it is rather simple. The problem is, that you get the skills
based upon the level it is set in your class, and not really something
special for your race.
I have set up a seperate skill table for each race, so I can set the
skills, level, mana, etc seperately for each race to allow myself more
room for developing them. I have not eliminated many of the
shortcommings you pointed out, but this is at least a step (small) in
what I felt was the right direction.
Concerning the problem with race that you were having. Why do you
need different stats for different races? Perhaps I was
misunderstanding your post, but it sounded more like all the races
would be generally the same. So, why do you need race to do anything
but provide RP. Follow a system where your experiences and job sets
your stats. If you are in a "smart" job and study a lot (like a
"mage"), then your int can go higher, but you just do not get outdoors
much, and your muscles just do not seem to be as strong as those
woodsmen over there...
I may have misunderstood what you were trying for...
Good luck with it,
Trinity
<gre...@pd.jaring.my> wrote:
> Concerning the problem with race that you were having. Why do you
> need different stats for different races? Perhaps I was
> misunderstanding your post, but it sounded more like all the races
> would be generally the same. So, why do you need race to do anything
> but provide RP.
Yes, I've thought about this. It's not the stats that I'm really
worried about, it's the classes that each race can join. Fer instance,
let's say that I have the following races: (I don't, but it's a good
example)
Japanese
Chinese
Nordic
Okay, all the stats are even. But I -only- want Japanese Samurais. So
I disallow the Chinese and Nordic races.
I get the feeling that the second I do this, folks are gonna scream
"Why can't my hulking Nordic warrior be a Samurai?" The fact that
historically there never were any won't really help me. I don't know,
how do the rest of you feel? Are people going to accept that it's a
game, or are they going to scream "discrimination"? =)
Jorge Pereira
1) race schools
2) race skills
3) race resistances (eg: vampire has resistance to light and to fire
at -100, to death at 80, etc)
4) race temperatures. I set a temperature range for confortability and
one for extreme enviroments. If the temperature leaves the confortable
range, there are changes in the stats, regen rates, etc. If it leaves the
extremes, you get... problems... damage and/or other effects. Obviously
for this you need temperatures in your world, but it's rather easy.
5) race light differences. Light in a room can go from 0 to 9. Each
race sees different details at different light values. Eg, drow can see
perfectly at 3, while for humans it is a little dim.
6) special effects, eg:
trolls can eat lots of things - they like leather equipment
particulary...
lizardman have dex increased in hot zones, decreased in cold
zones
etc
7) then there is the RP component. Some races are richer, some have
contacts in certain parts of the game, etc, etc (eg, assign a dominant
race to
each area and provide modifiers based on that)
Of course, even the stat changes for each race has different effect
depending on how you have them affect the game. Eg +1DEX might not mean
much unless dex affects number of attacks, defense, etc, etc
Hmm... there is more... but this can get you on the right path...
- evren
Jon A. Lambert
>#3 in the Trinity rant series, collect em' all:
>
>Topic: Races.
>
[snip]
>Even worse, many muds create races with clear advantages, but none of
>the logical disadvantages that would be associated with a given race.
>Vampire races are created, but then allowed to function in daylight.
>Aquatic races are spawned, but allowed to function on land in exactly
>the same manner as any other race.
Well the problem(?) here is that many muds are what I'd term HackNSlash
games. The character is merely an object for the player to fiddle with,
tune and manipulate to achieve the predefined goal of the game which
is basically to maximise power. How players pick and choose their
characters "race", in this context, is analogous to how race-car drivers
pick and choose a car chassis and engine. You will notice that on any
given racing circuit the majority of drivers will be found driving in very
similar, if not identical cars. Certainly of good part of this choice is
due to the rules of the circuit, but much of it is based on experience
and solid performance data. In any HnS game, the rules of the game,
player experience and observed effects become primary determinants
in picking a race. Make no mistake, someone playing a HnS game
is running in a race. An alternate goal appears once someone has
repeatedy won the game. Such a player will pick the race and/or
class which is "collectively" considered the weakest and attempt to
win the game that way. Boredom eventually sets in and the game is
shelved in favor of something more challenging.
Is this really a problem? A good game in this genre is one that is
considered to be balanced. Why? I don't know. I don't play
these types of games anymore. If one perceives a problem, it lies
in the area of game goal. Multiple races, classes, skills are just
multiple paths tied to the same omnipresent goal, maximise the
character performance.
>I'd become so disenchanted with races that I nearly removed them from
>my mud. The theme of my mud is such that it requires actual,
>non-fantasy races. Yet how does one accomplish this in today's world?
>While it's perfectly fine to say "Elves are more intelligent than
>humans", I'd be crucified if I built a mud where Asians had a higher
>Int stat than Europeans.
Well it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the game.
I think race is poor characteristic to pick for richness and depth even
in a game geared around a historical period. My game which revolves
around ancient Greece and it's surroundings is largely based on culture.
Culture of course implies a given race, especially in a historical
period. I don't avoid and ignore differences between Spartans,
Argosians, Athenians, Phoenicans, Egytians, etc. in terms of starting
skills, stats, special talents and flaws. I don't avoid gender differences
either. In fact I purposefully accentuate the differences, in order to make
the social environment more interesting and compelling.
Now basic stats don't really have much of an influence on game play
in my system anyhow because of the point system. A player could create
a female character with a 100 strength if they so desired, regardless of
race or gender. Culture is the determining factor in starting skills and the
difficulty in aquiring new ones. An Argosian female character is highly
unlikely to have any starting fighting skills and find them difficult to learn.
Sure that's not fair. It's not prohibitive though. It's an effect of culture.
She may learn them at some point. Learning them may cause her
to be ostracised by those of her culture. On the other hand a
Spartan woman as well as men will likely have significant "for free"
starting fighting skills. As adolescents both males and females were
trained in such skills. I also include the effects of class and social
status. Slavery of outsiders and indenturement was also quite common.
Picking ones social class also effects starting skills and talents.
>Has anyone here worked with Racial traits beyond the basic Stat Tweak,
>add perm spells methods? Or more directly to the point of my current
>issues: Has anyone tried using actual races, instead of fantasy races?
>(One might ask: "Why are you using real races, Trinity?" The answer:
>My mud isn't set in a D&D environment. It's a fantasy world, but one
>without orcs, giants and elves. It's somewhat Historical, and is set
>in a recent time period when the nationalities of the different clans
>are very important. Imagine building a game set around WWII without
>being able to refer to nationality, and you'll see roughly the sort of
>problem I'm facing.)
The bottom line is that those who are offended won't play. I find cultural
customs, religious rituals, adolescent training, gender, occupations, and
social standing far more interesting (and immersive) determinators of
skills, talents, flaws and stats than merely race. YMMV. :)
tel...@xenon.triode.net.au
> worried about, it's the classes that each race can join. Fer instance,
> let's say that I have the following races: (I don't, but it's a good
> example)
> Japanese
> Chinese
> Nordic
> Okay, all the stats are even. But I -only- want Japanese Samurais. So
> I disallow the Chinese and Nordic races.
> I get the feeling that the second I do this, folks are gonna scream
> "Why can't my hulking Nordic warrior be a Samurai?" The fact that
> historically there never were any won't really help me. I don't know,
> how do the rest of you feel? Are people going to accept that it's a
> game, or are they going to scream "discrimination"? =)
You could start the character off with a race but no class, then they have
to join their class by training with a master or whatever. Many MUDs already
run this way so there should be no big deal here. Then you start the different
races in different hometowns. No one can claim discrimination if their
Japanese character starts in Japan and their friend's Chinese character starts
in China -- that's just logic. I think you can see what I am getting at here.
If the level 0 Nordic with no class and no skills wants to swim to Japan
and learn to be a Samurai then I'd say let them, if a player sits there killing
off character after character until one gets through by some amazing fluke then
they probably deserve to be the only Nordic Samurai in the world.
Then again, the guildmasters can be racist. If you want to be historically
accurate then they almost definately were, especially the medieval Japanese.
Back then racism was considered much like drinking coffee is today. I mean
consider the Norseman somehow making it to Japan against incredible odds,
staggering (half dead) up to some master Samurai who is sitting in contemplation
in the local temple. The Norseman speaks unintelligibly, dresses like a savage,
presents himself like a peasant, can't read or write either, can't even hold
a paintbrush properly. What sort of reaction would you expect?
Maybe your players would not enjoy a simulation that was too accurate though :-)
- Tel
Daniel A. Koepke
On Aug 6, Trinity said on <rec.games.mud.admin>:
> Yes, I've thought about this. It's not the stats that I'm really
> worried about, it's the classes that each race can join.
Well, there's your problem, then: classes. You can be a Nordic samurai
(which isn't the proper term, really) but you'll have to take your ass
over to Japan and find someone willing to teach you. You're not a samurai
just because you type 'S' at some menu and you the mud auto-assigned
particular "samurai" skills or spells.
> Okay, all the stats are even. But I -only- want Japanese Samurais.
Pedantic: The plural of samurai is samurai, not "samurais." I've seen
Japanese words pluralized in English too often for my own health and it
just looks and feels wrong.
> Are people going to accept that it's a game, or are they going to
> scream "discrimination"? =)
Which is why I say do away with classes and have the racial discrimination
be part of the game, not part of the creation process. That way, you
COULD have a Nordic samurai, but they'd need to be some pretty hot stuff
to sail over to Japan, not get killed for being a Westerner, learn
Japanese, and then learn everything about bushido and the various sword
arts. In reality, this would take many years to accomplish, and would be
highly unlikely due to the historical paranoia of Japanese when it
concerned outside influences. Oh, and there's many very different
dialects of the Japanese language where you would formerly be able to find
two villages, only a few days travel from each other (if that), where the
dialects were so different they couldn't understand one another. So the
guy who learns Japanese in one place, may have to adapt to the dialect
spoken in another place. The amount of effort one would need to expend to
become a samurai, then, would be enormous, simply because there was actual
prejudice and discrimination in the real world.
And now a quick note on "samurai." People seem to use samurai to mean a
Japanese warrior in the general sense; this isn't really any more true
than saying a knight was a "European warrior" (i.e., there's much more to
it than that). While it is true that samurai were warriors, they were a
particular type of warrior. The samurai were essentially warriors
employed by the shogun and daimyo in the feudal system. They probably
also abided by bushido (the Way of the Warrior), would commit seppuku
(vulgar, "hari kari"; there is at least one story of a warrior who was
prohibited from killing himself), and probably wrote a few haiku along the
way. I forget the exact hierarchy of power, but I believe it was: a
shogun is a large land owner who splits his land amongst several daimyo,
the daimyo have serfs to tend their land and samurai (maybe "borrowed"
from the shogun) to protect it. During a war, the shogun would almost
certainly take all the samurai he could get to put them into the fight.
A samurai always had a master. When the feudal system began to dissolve, a
large number of ronin (masterless samurai) were created who would roam
about and get hired for doing odd jobs (The Seven Samurai?) or simply
fight to prove that they were the top-notch bad asses (there's a lot of
stories about these ronin in martial art lore; especially ones in which a
ronin would prove himself by destroying entire dojo, either by just
whacking the sensei and a few students or anyone and everyone around).
Jorge Pereira
worth taking a look at the Legend of the 5 Rings RPG. I'm onto a fantasy
mud myself (fantasy races, I mean), but been playing L5R for almost an
year now, and it's got a very rich set of information on samurai,
together with a "mage" like type of samurai, named shugenja. The actual
world the RPG runs on is much like feudal japan, with a few differences
(there is magic, in one place).
Anyway, in this world, there was a clan who left the empire like 800
years ago (from current rpg time), and they recently returned (about 200
years ago). Now, the members of this clan went to foreign lands, met
strange desert tribes, and strange cultures, yet tried to retain all
their legacy. Then even developed a new style of haiku named
"travel-poetry". Well, thing is, that when they got back, they were
still considered barbarians, despite the fact that they had the notion
of keeping all traditions nearly intact. And they were only left into
the empire again because of an ancient artifact with which they proved
their descendance. Anyway, there they are, descendants of the original
clan, and yet they are shunned by nearly every other clan, their habits
mocked at, etc, etc. Now try to picture an outsider... he wouldn't last
a minute. First samurai he met would probably wipe him out probably
considering him an invasor or a spy. And samurai act faster then they
think, so he would most likely have no time for explanations. That's
just fine. Even if he met just peasents, they would shun him off, and
warn the daimyo of their lands. Peasents are very supersticious, and
tend to think of change and new things as signs of disgrace...
... anyway, guess this post won't add much to the other ones! :) But you
can always take a look at www.alderac.com for some info on the rpg, and
get some information from there (they got some links into articles and
history).
Grenik
wrote:
>
>Okay, all the stats are even. But I -only- want Japanese Samurais. So
>I disallow the Chinese and Nordic races.
>
>I get the feeling that the second I do this, folks are gonna scream
>"Why can't my hulking Nordic warrior be a Samurai?" The fact that
>historically there never were any won't really help me. I don't know,
>how do the rest of you feel? Are people going to accept that it's a
>game, or are they going to scream "discrimination"? =)
I would agree with the other person that posted on this topic. Are
you trying to bring realism to your game, or are you trying to create
some utopia where 'we can all just get along...'
I think it would be perfectly fine to have a Japanese teacher that
taught ONLY Japanese the art of fighting in their style.
I own a Koto-period Katana (Samurai Sword), and I am completely a
novice in this area, but trying to get Japanese polishers to discuss
polishing techniques (as an example) is very difficult. It is a
secret that was pass down to them in a very important way and they are
not likely to share it with others. It is also basically a
trade-secret to them....would you share something like that? I think
there is no problem with this, nor would I hesitate to incorporate it
into my mud.
Also, remember that the mud is being built the way that *you* want it.
Just like there are people that will complain about a religion system
you have on your mud, no doubt, you will find someone that complains
about your "discrimination". Politely explain that there are all
sorts of other muds out there that may be be more suited to their
tastes.
Martijn van der Kleijn
Despite the fact that its way off-topic, I'd like to go into what Daniel
here said about Japanese hierarchy... It's slightly incorrect. (sorry
Daniel)...
"Daniel A. Koepke" wrote:
>
> And now a quick note on "samurai." People seem to use samurai to mean a
> Japanese warrior in the general sense; this isn't really any more true
> than saying a knight was a "European warrior" (i.e., there's much more to
> it than that). While it is true that samurai were warriors, they were a
> particular type of warrior.
Correct. The Samurai were the elite... the warrior caste so to say...
> The samurai were essentially warriors
> employed by the shogun and daimyo in the feudal system.
Not entirely so... While true that samurai worked for Daimyo's and such,
the
Daimyo's and even the Shogun were also samurai.
> They probably also abided by bushido (the Way of the Warrior), would commit seppuku
> (vulgar, "hari kari"; there is at least one story of a warrior who was
> prohibited from killing himself), and probably wrote a few haiku along the
> way.
ALL samurai abided by bushido, or at least, they were supposed to if
they were honorable...
Committing seppuku (or hara kiri) was most often performed to prevent or
remove shame (of
a dishonarable act for example) from the family name or his lord's
name... It was considered
an honorable act... If it was not allowed, the person who wanted to
commit seppuku, was doubly
shamed...
Seppuku was also used (very, VERY sparingly) as a last ditch effort of a
samurai to convince his
lord to do or not do something... In this case he had to be certain of a
number of things...
1. Do I shame my lord with this action?
2. Will my lord allow me to commit seppuku?
3. Am I valued highly enough for my lord to prevent my death by
complying/listening?
4. Do I shame myself (or worse) my family with this act?
Needless to say, they only did this if they felt VERY strongly about
something and were VERY sure
of their position...
> I forget the exact hierarchy of power, but I believe it was: a
> shogun is a large land owner who splits his land amongst several daimyo,
> the daimyo have serfs to tend their land and samurai (maybe "borrowed"
> from the shogun) to protect it.
This is more like western style... Sorry, but the Shogun was the
MILITARY ruler of Japan...
Technically the Emperor was supreme and owned the land... Although in
practice, the Daimyo's
ruled and owned the land. The most powerfull Daimyo could, if he had
enough military power,
rule the other Daimyo's and ask the Emperor to be formally named Shogun.
It's important to understand, that though Daimyo, Shogun and such were
powerfull, they were
also samurai. This means that, theoretically, every samurai could become
Daimyo or even Shogun
through hard work and dedication... The difficulty lay in becoming a
samurai (unless you were
born into it) and staying alive long enough... *grin*
The Daimyo had serf indeed, the peasants, which he taxed... These taxes
were (in part) given as tribute
to the Daimyo's lord (usually another particullary powerfull Daimyo).
From the rest of the taxes (rice and
stuff) he kept his army of samurai. These could be "loaned" to his lord
when needed.
[snip]
Hope I didn't offend by correting... *smile* But I feel very strongly
about this subject, and hate to see
people incorrectly interpret samurai and such... *grin*
Jp Calderone
>
> Hi,
>
> Despite the fact that its way off-topic, I'd like to go into what Daniel
> here said about Japanese hierarchy... It's slightly incorrect. (sorry
> Daniel)...
>
>
> > They probably also abided by bushido (the Way of the Warrior), would commit seppuku
> > (vulgar, "hari kari"; there is at least one story of a warrior who was
> > prohibited from killing himself), and probably wrote a few haiku along the
> > way.
>
> ALL samurai abided by bushido, or at least, they were supposed to if
> they were honorable...
> Committing seppuku (or hara kiri) was most often performed to prevent or
> remove shame (of
> a dishonarable act for example) from the family name or his lord's
> name... It was considered
> an honorable act... If it was not allowed, the person who wanted to
> commit seppuku, was doubly
> shamed...
>
disobeyed the direct command of his/her lord. While it certainly was
not the optimal situation to feel the need to commit seppuku, it wasn't
a great dishonor to have that right restricted by one's lord.
> Seppuku was also used (very, VERY sparingly) as a last ditch effort of a
> samurai to convince his
> lord to do or not do something... In this case he had to be certain of a
> number of things...
> 1. Do I shame my lord with this action?
> 2. Will my lord allow me to commit seppuku?
> 3. Am I valued highly enough for my lord to prevent my death by
> complying/listening?
> 4. Do I shame myself (or worse) my family with this act?
>
> Needless to say, they only did this if they felt VERY strongly about
> something and were VERY sure
> of their position...
>
> > I forget the exact hierarchy of power, but I believe it was: a
> > shogun is a large land owner who splits his land amongst several daimyo,
> > the daimyo have serfs to tend their land and samurai (maybe "borrowed"
> > from the shogun) to protect it.
>
> This is more like western style... Sorry, but the Shogun was the
> MILITARY ruler of Japan...
> Technically the Emperor was supreme and owned the land... Although in
> practice, the Daimyo's
> ruled and owned the land. The most powerfull Daimyo could, if he had
> enough military power,
> rule the other Daimyo's and ask the Emperor to be formally named Shogun.
Side note - It was also a proudly held fact (esp. when contact was first
made w/ europeans) that the emperor's bloodline was traceable for hundreds
of generations into the past, as opposed to english/french/spanish/etc
royalty which didn't have anything even close to that kind of continuity.
>
> It's important to understand, that though Daimyo, Shogun and such were
> powerfull, they were
> also samurai. This means that, theoretically, every samurai could become
> Daimyo or even Shogun
> through hard work and dedication... The difficulty lay in becoming a
> samurai (unless you were
> born into it) and staying alive long enough... *grin*
This probably bears emphasis... If you weren't born samurai, the chances
of becoming one were about 1 in a million, probably less.
An interesting quirk in this system (Or whatever you might call it) is that
if a peasant managed to overcome the amazing odds against him, he could rise
to the rank of supreme military commander (The term for this escapes me just
now). He would not be shogun in name, but in all other respects it would be
as though he were. Suffice it to say, this didn't happen very often :)
[snip]
--
| This
| signature
| intentionally
| 8 lines
| long.
| (So sue me)
---
Trinity
<tel...@xenon.triode.net.au> wrote:
> > You could start the character off with a race but no class, then they have
> to join their class by training with a master or whatever. Many MUDs already
> run this way so there should be no big deal here. Then you start the different
> races in different hometowns. No one can claim discrimination if their
> Japanese character starts in Japan and their friend's Chinese character starts
> in China -- that's just logic. I think you can see what I am getting at here.
*grin* Your solution is so perfect for my mud that I feel idiotic that
I didn't come up with it myself. Thanks! I'm gonna implement it
today.
Jorge Pereira
> This isn't quite so. What would be doubly dishonoring is if a samurai
> disobeyed the direct command of his/her lord. While it certainly was
> not the optimal situation to feel the need to commit seppuku, it wasn't
> a great dishonor to have that right restricted by one's lord.
That's not quite so either. Beeing denied to comit sepuku was the _ultimate_ dishonor. The
step imediatly before that was giving the samurai a wooden wakizashi (the short
sword/dagger that is part of the daisho - wakizashi/katana), as a sign that he was allowed
to comit sepuku, but noone believed him to be capable of fulfilling the act. Anyway beeing
denied to comit sepuku was a _great_ dishonor. Also, one of the most misunderstood facts
about that culture is that samurai didn't commit sepuku to save their honor, but that of
their family. They asked to commit sepuku because they believed their actions shamed their
anscestors, not just them.
> This probably bears emphasis... If you weren't born samurai, the chances
> of becoming one were about 1 in a million, probably less.
Right. There are, however, mentions to peasents beeing "raised" to samurai class for their
great bravery. I recall, when I was studying that, one battle (of which I forgot the name)
where a peasent put itself between a spear heading towards his daimyo. The peasent died
but was raised to samurai, and his family was given lands and established a small servant
house to the daymio.
> An interesting quirk in this system (Or whatever you might call it) is that
> if a peasant managed to overcome the amazing odds against him, he could rise to the rank
> of supreme military commander (The term for this escapes me justnow).
Yoriki, if I'm not wrong, is the term
Telford Tendys
>> samurai (unless you were
>> born into it) and staying alive long enough... *grin*
> This probably bears emphasis... If you weren't born samurai, the chances
> of becoming one were about 1 in a million, probably less.
Which stands in contrast to the Western system where any man at arms could
theoretically become a knight though suitable act of valour or service.
In practice not many did but what matters is that they thought there was
a chance. Also, the knight could train a squire who didn't have to
be of any particular family blood (though family did influence matters).
- Tel
Malcolm Valentine
>#3 in the Trinity rant series, collect em' all:
>
>Topic: Races.
>
>At the most basic, the only difference between races in most muds is a
>few minor tweaks in starting stats. This is unfortunate, because most
<snipped>
From a design point of view, this is perhaps all that the difference
should be, especially if they are all basically humanoids. What differs
classical elves from dwarves is not differences in ther stats, but the
fact that the dwarves spend their time underground, excavating caverns and
mining for wealth, whilst elves frolic throught the forest composing poetry,
etc.
If the game does not provide avenues for the players to do this, then
there will be very little difference seen between the races...
>Even worse, many muds create races with clear advantages, but none of
>the logical disadvantages that would be associated with a given race.
This is just a game balance issue and one of many imbalances many MUDs
exhibit.
>non-fantasy races. Yet how does one accomplish this in today's world?
>While it's perfectly fine to say "Elves are more intelligent than
>humans", I'd be crucified if I built a mud where Asians had a higher
>Int stat than Europeans. No, that's not quite true, as long as I had
>Europeans as the weakest, least intelligent race, I'd be fine. =) But
>the second I gave a Caucasian race -any- advantage over a non-Caucasian
>race, I'd be skinned alive. It's no wonder that nobody attempts a Mud
>based on anything other than D&D.
Heh, this is a touchy issue, but you're not really looking at different RP
races here, they are all human. Shouldn't they all have the same max and min
stats? Perhaps an argument for different averages on the stats could be
better supported by all.
Well, this has turned out all jumbled, but what I was trying to say was that
proper support for races requires a lot more then a bit of number juggling.
Dwarven kingdoms, Elven forest strongholds, etc all must be available to the
players as a place to call home, and these are what should be distinct between
the races.
Cheers,
Malcolm V.
Malcolm Valentine
>Okay, all the stats are even. But I -only- want Japanese Samurais. So
>I disallow the Chinese and Nordic races.
Heh, the problem here is not a single Viking Samurai, but 300 of them
cropping up on your mud. This is actually a dynamic vs static issue, and
dealing with it is a very mud specific issue.
If you are running a dynamic mud, then there is no reason at all why some
Viking ship may not end up in Japan, where the cabin boy is inducted into
Bushido then leaves to return home. Once there he transmit his knowledge to
those around him, etc. You don't have "Nordic Samurais", but you will get
some wielding two swords. With a dynamic mud, you just have to live with that.
On a static mud, players will eventually get bored of the available choices,
and start harping for Japanese Eskimos anyway, just to keep themselves amused.
Cheers,
Malcolm V.
Martijn van der Kleijn
>
> Side note - It was also a proudly held fact (esp. when contact was first
> made w/ europeans) that the emperor's bloodline was traceable for hundreds
> of generations into the past, as opposed to english/french/spanish/etc
> royalty which didn't have anything even close to that kind of continuity.
Yep... always liked that fact myself...
> > It's important to understand, that though Daimyo, Shogun and such were
> > powerfull, they were
> > also samurai. This means that, theoretically, every samurai could become
> > Daimyo or even Shogun
> > through hard work and dedication... The difficulty lay in becoming a
> > samurai (unless you were
> > born into it) and staying alive long enough... *grin*
>
> This probably bears emphasis... If you weren't born samurai, the chances
> of becoming one were about 1 in a million, probably less.
Yes... I probably didn't stress this fact strongly enough... It would be
near
impossible. You'd have to save your Daimyos life MORE than once
probably. (Depends
a bit on the situation.
Martijn van der Kleijn
>
> Jp Calderone wrote:
>
> > This isn't quite so. What would be doubly dishonoring is if a samurai
> > disobeyed the direct command of his/her lord. While it certainly was
> > not the optimal situation to feel the need to commit seppuku, it wasn't
> > a great dishonor to have that right restricted by one's lord.
>
> That's not quite so either. Beeing denied to comit sepuku was the _ultimate_ dishonor. The
> step imediatly before that was giving the samurai a wooden wakizashi (the short
> sword/dagger that is part of the daisho - wakizashi/katana), as a sign that he was allowed
> to comit sepuku, but noone believed him to be capable of fulfilling the act. Anyway beeing
> denied to comit sepuku was a _great_ dishonor. Also, one of the most misunderstood facts
> about that culture is that samurai didn't commit sepuku to save their honor, but that of
> their family. They asked to commit sepuku because they believed their actions shamed their
> anscestors, not just them.
Almost forgot about the sword... *grin*
If I may clarify my earlier statements... *smile* A samurai defends
honor in roughly the following
order: 1st comes his lord's honor, 2nd comes his family's honor and
lastly comes his personal honor.
MOST (not always) of the time, he will want to commit seppuku for one of
the first two. Sometimes his
lord will even demand it of him... On the other hand, if a samurai was
denied the right to commit seppuku,
it depended greatly on the WAY HOW he was denied. If his lord made it
clear he though the samurai hadn't
shamed himself or his family and even praised him, there was absolutely
no shame involved in the denial.
I agree however, that the ultimate dishonor was flat denial in face of
shame... A little less shamefull
(depending on how you look at it, it could be even more
shameful/dishonoring) was the wooden sword. This
meant "permission to kill yourself is granted, but you're to cowardly to
do it." Being accussed of cowardice
is very grave indeed...
[snip]
> > An interesting quirk in this system (Or whatever you might call it) is that
> > if a peasant managed to overcome the amazing odds against him, he could rise to the rank
> > of supreme military commander (The term for this escapes me justnow).
>
> Yoriki, if I'm not wrong, is the term
But couldn't he request the Shogun title from the Emperor just the same?
Possibly risking war since not many
"trueblood" samurai would stand for that...
Trinity
<sp...@triode.net.au> wrote:
> >I'd be crucified if I built a mud where Asians had a higher
> >Int stat than Europeans.
> Heh, this is a touchy issue, but you're not really looking at different RP
> races here, they are all human. Shouldn't they all have the same max and min
> stats? Perhaps an argument for different averages on the stats could be
> better supported by all.
Nods, and that's what I've decided to do. Every race will have
-exactly- the same stats, but some races will find it much easier to
progress in some classes. For example, Japanese characters will find
it MUCH easier to locate mentors to teach them Samurai/Ninja skills.
Some mentors might even refuse to teach races other than their own.
Another poster here suggested this system, and I really like it a lot.
=)