How to permanent character death
bak...@cnsvax.uwec.edu
would have to make reserection a lower level spell, such as maybe castable at
11th level on a 20 level system.
Next people would have to be able to go up faster as characters would
last for shorter amounts of time. It would remove the career 20th as an
option. If he was afraid to Immort something or someone would eventually kill
him increasing his incentive. Also the numbers of high levels would not be so
top heavy as it is on many muds. It would look more like real life as
characters would have to survive the low levels. This would mean a much more
hiearchical(sp) level system. Also it would increase the incentive to group
at higher levels as you would want someone around who could reaserect people.
It would increase the level of tension also, and along with this the
level of excitement. All of us have had the night were we have died 3 or more
times in a night, and besides being non productive it is not a lot of fun.
With a system like this more newbies would be created though so it
would probably be beneficial to give a larger starting package to get people
back into the game. Also more low level areas would be neccasary.
I see game after game with tons and tons of high level areas, but not
enough low level areas. How are they supposed to explore? The answer is they
can if there are enough areas for them to explore.
So to summarize permanent character death could be made to work with
increased chance of reserection, more low level areas, and a larger starting
package. It would eliminate the problem of too many high level characters, the
career 20th levelers, and the malaise of ooops I died, oh well, and replace it
with a real tension. I think this would make for a more realistic more intense
game.
Dan the curious one
Max Pritchard
bak...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
> I think permanent character death could be made to work.
[numerous reasons why and possible ways how]
It would be nice to alter the consequences of being killed by different
mobiles in the game. Take for example, a cityguard. If "killed" by the cityguard
it seems to me that you'd awake in the jail, pending release. If "killed" by a
band of rouges, you may awake in the same street, sans equipment or gold or both
In this way, you could construct a gaming environment where "death" occured
often, but was deemed only unconsciousness. The further from the start and
novice levels you go, more chance of permanent death occuring. You could create
some nice touches like "death" by goblins would cause you to reappear in a cell
without equipment but with a chance to survive and get back to civilisation.
(A means to get out of the cell is provided of course)
Heres to a MUD with permanent death.
Max Pritchard
Flames via Email please, constructive criticism via net
pri...@black.ox.ac.uk
Scarrow
> It would be nice to alter the consequences of being killed by different
>mobiles in the game. Take for example, a cityguard. If "killed" by the
>cityguard it seems to me that you'd awake in the jail, pending release. If
>"killed" by a band of rouges, you may awake in the same street, sans equipment
Hmmm, in my mind, if the character wakes up at all, it'd make more sense to
wake up on your funeral pyre. It's not just permanent death that's important,
but also the implications of being dead. If you commit a crime, perhaps you
go to jail ... but if they kill you trying to escape, perhaps you're just
dead. Now, unconsciousness should be a viable combat outcome. There are
cases where something might not desire to kill you or try to kill you. I
think, however, that when it's relatively safe to assume you're dead, you
simply are. Occam's Razor, and all that.
--
Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
Brian Crowder
> pri...@black.ox.ac.uk (Max Pritchard) writes:
> > It would be nice to alter the consequences of being killed by different
> >mobiles in the game. Take for example, a cityguard. If "killed" by the
> >cityguard it seems to me that you'd awake in the jail, pending release. If
> >"killed" by a band of rouges, you may awake in the same street, sans equipment
> >or gold or both.
is the purpose of death traps, and rooms with no exits. Plus, imagine
the overhead of keeping track of all those escapees! *grin* I do
like the idea of cityguards not shooting to kill, since sometimes they
are not actual targets, but caught in the crossfire and since it's not
really their job to kill people.
>
> Hmmm, in my mind, if the character wakes up at all, it'd make more sense to
> wake up on your funeral pyre. It's not just permanent death that's important,
> but also the implications of being dead. If you commit a crime, perhaps you
> go to jail ... but if they kill you trying to escape, perhaps you're just
> dead. Now, unconsciousness should be a viable combat outcome. There are
> cases where something might not desire to kill you or try to kill you. I
> think, however, that when it's relatively safe to assume you're dead, you
> simply are. Occam's Razor, and all that.
>
there any more (or at least, not that I play), I thought I'd throw my 2
measly cents in anyways. I like Deth's idea of permanent death a bit
more than yours Scarrow, which I find unforgiving and unfantastic (read that
as being not in the context of a fantasy realm where ressurection, animation
of the dead, and divine intervention are not so scarce) ressurection
should certainly have it's penalties, though since death and being jerked
out of heaven/hell/purgatory probably isn't very pleasant. I see a loss
of one point on all stats, half of the characters XP, and again depending
on the method of the character's demise, a loss of all EQ. On the other
hand, being slain be a cute bunny rabbit should be nearly impossible,
unless the rabbit is highly Pythonesque! And then we're back to subdual,
fleeing, unconciousness v. Permanent Death By Bunny Rabbit. The point
is, life and death as they are done now, even out with regards to newbies
and more experienced players, deaths which are ridiculous at first level
### Dirk mercilessly slain by the cute bunny rabbit!
Are eventually made up for later when the characters are not so brutally
punished for their mistakes.
Artie Debuigny
:: A bunch of people wrote stuff, which I will not include here..
This is a very good idea, and probably wouldn't be too hard to implement
if done a certain way. It seems to me that thse could be some possible
alternatives to the current 'normal' death on most MU*'s
1. Instead of virtual reincarnation, having death be the end. You lose
all stats, and all possessions. You start anew (although you should
be allowed to keep your characters name.)
2. You could have ceratin kind of attacks. Subdue, and kill. Cityguards
and police would use subdue by default, monsters would use kill. If
killed, its permanent. If subdued, you lose consciousness for a
certain amount of time (dependant on how hard the blow was), and
depending on what the coder wants for the guard, he could be relocated
to a cell, robbed, or just left alone. If you leave him in a cell, you
have to make sure he cannot just log out and log back on again. He has
to escape using wit, or serve his time. This could be accomplished by
leaving a starting point in everyone's player file that specifies the
point of logout, and upon login, it would send him back to where he last
played.
These should both be easy to implement.
--
+=======================================================================+
# Arthur C. DeBuigny | These opinions are mine. Since you #
# debu...@merlin.etsu.edu | are reading them, they are now yours, # #
# s310...@etsuacad.etsu.edu | too. If you have a problem with this, #
# s43...@etsuv2.etsu.edu | you need help. IM RIGHT! NUFF SAID! #
+=======================================================================+
Scarrow
>bai...@penchiss10.ee.pdx.edu (Scarrow) writes:
>This idea has come up a bit on PR of late, and tho I don't have a mortal
>there any more (or at least, not that I play), I thought I'd throw my 2
>measly cents in anyways. I like Deth's idea of permanent death a bit
>more than yours Scarrow, which I find unforgiving and unfantastic (read that
>as being not in the context of a fantasy realm where ressurection, animation
>of the dead, and divine intervention are not so scarce) ressurection
>should certainly have it's penalties, though since death and being jerked
>out of heaven/hell/purgatory probably isn't very pleasant. I see a loss
Try to remember, firstly, that I'm not talking about Perilous Realms. I'm not
talking about any established game, as a matter of fact. Yes, resurrection
can fit in with the theme of a world ... but it doesn't have to be present for
that realm to be considered fantastic. Sure, your character might be revived
on a mud I build ... as an undead, or something. In fact, it might be
interesting to allow players to role-play as an undead (if undead status isn't
too easy to gain and has some significant drawbacks). I'm looking for a sort
of ... hmmm ... disillusioning fantasy theme. A world where evil has, in the
main, triumphed. The people are oppressed, danger lurks at many corners, and
the blood flows in bright streams across the dark stone of the city. Sort of
a mix of horror and fantasy, I guess. Alien-esque. In contrast, I'd call
Diku more of a "Jurassic Park". A few thrills and chills, but just a little
to happy to suit my mind.
In any event, as Abaddon stated in one of his recent posts, there's room
in the world for a lot of different styles of mud. I talk about what I
personally would like to see, which often doesn't agree with what the majority
of muds present. In that sense, there should be plenty of places to seek
fullfillment of the sort of mud you desire. Currently, I can't find a single
mud that truly satisfies me.
>fleeing, unconciousness v. Permanent Death By Bunny Rabbit. The point
>is, life and death as they are done now, even out with regards to newbies
>and more experienced players, deaths which are ridiculous at first level
>### Dirk mercilessly slain by the cute bunny rabbit!
>Are eventually made up for later when the characters are not so brutally
>punished for their mistakes.
My point was that players would not start out with the killing capacity of a
newborn grasshopper. You'd be able to kill a rabbit, for example. (More the
difficultly should be in catching it.) Instead, you'd be testing yourself
against, for example, a cutthroat wielding a knife in a dark alley, or some
other encounter you might stand a reasonable chance of surviving (actually,
surviving isn't too difficult, usually ... it's winning that's a bit more so).
Some things I don't like about Diku are really holdovers from things I never
liked about D&D. These revolve mainly around things like dragon slaying.
Picture the movie "Dragonslayer" ... yes, the dragon was slain in that film,
but it wasn't exactly an easy ordeal. Nor was it a simple matter of standing
around and watching your blows pass back and forth, rather passively. I'd
like combat to be a bit more stimulating ... hiding areas (hiding under a bed
or in a tree, for example), being chased (and being trapped), ambushes,
ranged combat, fatigue, etc.
In any event, none of this revolves around Perilous Realms, really.
Deth was somewhat persuaded by my discussions here, and that's about it. He
does, and should, do things the way he likes.
Now, if after this explanation of my views of permanent death you still
don't agree, remember that each side is just an opinion and only that. I
think I can muster up a good ol' argument if you really want to, though.
Alan Cox
I've been grinning my way through these posts about great new ideas like
real player death (DA! DA!). Thats how it always used to be and its much
more fun that way. The losing one level type rubbish is an aberration
from modern times.
To get it really going make sure that players get more points for killing
high level characters (I believe MUD1 used 1/12 the opponents total score)
and wait. Everyone who is high level will have to be fast because they are
walking targets.
Alan
Ms E Bright
>
>I've been grinning my way through these posts about great new ideas like
>real player death (DA! DA!). Thats how it always used to be and its much
>more fun that way. The losing one level type rubbish is an aberration
>from modern times.
I'm glad someone else remembers that. It was a real killer to play
MUD1 at 50p/hour plus phone costs for three months, and then get your
character WIPED by a careless death. It really did get wiped, you had
to create it again from scratch. Although you could use the same name.
I couldn't believe it the first time I died on an LP, and still existed!
Luxury!
>To get it really going make sure that players get more points for killing
>high level characters (I believe MUD1 used 1/12 the opponents total score)
>and wait. Everyone who is high level will have to be fast because they are
>walking targets.
Hm, did MUD1 do this? I don't think I ever killed another player, though
my fourth level character did do in a very tough druid before dying for the
last time...:(. This surely is a logical extension of the LP monster-killing
system, getting more points the higher level the monster is.
>
>Alan
>
Ever since I tried LPs I've been secretly convinced that death should be
permanent as it was in MUD1, but kept silent as it was much easier to
take risks when it wasn't! More fun that way, Alan? Depends how much cash
you forked out to get your character to whatever level before he/she dies.
Alan Cox
>
>I'm glad someone else remembers that. It was a real killer to play
>MUD1 at 50p/hour plus phone costs for three months, and then get your
>character WIPED by a careless death. It really did get wiped, you had
>to create it again from scratch. Although you could use the same name.
>I couldn't believe it the first time I died on an LP, and still existed!
>Luxury!
>
until Richard Bartle left and MUD1 became solely a commercial game. Real
MUD1 didn't have character classes either, you are describing MUD2. As
far as I know the only way to play the genuine article now is on compu$erve
but then you don't get to appreciate the speed of it running properly.
Alan
Brian Crowder
> bri...@col.hp.com (Brian Crowder) writes:
> >bai...@penchiss10.ee.pdx.edu (Scarrow) writes:
> >This idea has come up a bit on PR of late, and tho I don't have a mortal
>
I wasn't really referring to Perilous Realms in this sense, just mentioning
where my interest in the subject resides.
> a mix of horror and fantasy, I guess. Alien-esque. In contrast, I'd call
> Diku more of a "Jurassic Park". A few thrills and chills, but just a little
> to happy to suit my mind.
> In any event, as Abaddon stated in one of his recent posts, there's room
> in the world for a lot of different styles of mud. I talk about what I
> personally would like to see, which often doesn't agree with what the majority
> of muds present. In that sense, there should be plenty of places to seek
> fullfillment of the sort of mud you desire. Currently, I can't find a single
> mud that truly satisfies me.
Me neither. I have played everything from monty haul style muds to...
Well, permantent death style muds, and haven't found the happy medium or
class balance that I truly enjoy. (Something I like about AD&D _IF_ it
is properly GMed.)
> newborn grasshopper. You'd be able to kill a rabbit, for example. (More the
> difficultly should be in catching it.) Instead, you'd be testing yourself
> against, for example, a cutthroat wielding a knife in a dark alley, or some
I wonder if part of the problem here is the simple fact that builders
actually make mobs like rabbits with the intent to present newbie with
low-level XP. Rabbits shouldn't be mobs, as you say, they should be
munchies. I'd like to be tested against a cutthroat wielding a knife in
a dark alley, but again, most Diku's don't have either the atmosphere
or the combat systems to incoorporate a realistic (*cringe* There, I
said it, dammit!) encounter.
> other encounter you might stand a reasonable chance of surviving (actually,
> surviving isn't too difficult, usually ... it's winning that's a bit more so).
> Some things I don't like about Diku are really holdovers from things I never
> liked about D&D. These revolve mainly around things like dragon slaying.
> Picture the movie "Dragonslayer" ... yes, the dragon was slain in that film,
> but it wasn't exactly an easy ordeal. Nor was it a simple matter of standing
> around and watching your blows pass back and forth, rather passively. I'd
> like combat to be a bit more stimulating ... hiding areas (hiding under a bed
> or in a tree, for example), being chased (and being trapped), ambushes,
> ranged combat, fatigue, etc.
This intrigues me alot, Scarrow, since much of the quest in dragonslayer
involved intellectual challenges rather than physical. The BIGGEST
problem with Diku in my mind is the limitations it places on creators,
especially in the puzzle department (and to some degree, special effects,
as well). Diku combat, in my mind doesn't really need to be overhauled
as much as Diku building, and Diku NPCs (Not mobs).
> In any event, none of this revolves around Perilous Realms, really.
> Deth was somewhat persuaded by my discussions here, and that's about it. He
> does, and should, do things the way he likes.
Yeah. *grin* Yeah, he does.
> Now, if after this explanation of my views of permanent death you still
> don't agree, remember that each side is just an opinion and only that. I
> think I can muster up a good ol' argument if you really want to, though.
Well, you seem to think that permanent death will provide more challenge
to players, and I certainly agree with that (And challenge is a good thing).
But I wonder if it makes play (playability is a good thing, too) too
difficult for the non-obsessed mudder...
Krelin, Lord of the Underworld
Richard Bartle
>>high level characters (I believe MUD1 used 1/12 the opponents total score)
>>and wait. Everyone who is high level will have to be fast because they are
>>walking targets.
>Hm, did MUD1 do this?
remember without looking at the program code, but I think it was level-based
rather than points-based. In MUD2, I make it points-based, and it comes to
significantly more than 1/12 of their score - I think it's more like 1/5.
This means some of the higher-level players are worth a LOT dead, but then I
also ensure that higher-level players are better able to defend themselves
against lower-level types. If they do get taken out, it's by another high-life,
and the attacker has as much to lose as the defender in such circumstances.
>Ever since I tried LPs I've been secretly convinced that death should be
>permanent as it was in MUD1, but kept silent as it was much easier to
>take risks when it wasn't! More fun that way, Alan? Depends how much cash
>you forked out to get your character to whatever level before he/she dies.
It certainly gets the ol' adreniline flowing in a fight if you know
you could be DEAD at the end of it. Most fights, however, don't end that way,
as people flee before suffering fatal injuries. The fact that all COULD be
lost is a good way of getting the fear juices running, though!
I maintain that character death is an essential part of game management.
Without it, there's no way to stop plodders from reaching positions of power
(plodders being defined as people who are completely unsuitable to occupy
positions of power). All you can do is take extra-game action and ban them.
If anyone can become a member of the elite, then eliteness is robbed of its
meaning. However, without an elite, there's a lack of direction for the
players - they have no goals. Although I provide a separate stream in MUD2 for
people who just like to explore, chat and help one another, I don't let people
reach wiz level unless they switch to the "legitimate target for being attacked"
stream.
I am only too strongly aware that in this day and age, such views as
this on player killing are regarded as nigh-on heretical, counter to all that
is decent, and punishable by being burned at the stake (well, flamed at the
stake perhaps). Consequently, whenever anyone takes me to task on the issue
I merely tell them that theirs is a valuable and valid point of view. It
Cmean I think their games will be free of management problems, though.
Richard
doesn't
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* Meeeow ! Call Spuddy on (0203) 364436/362560 for FREE mail & Usenet access *
Jason Skiles
something of an alien concept to muses and mushes. If you lose a battle
in space, the ship and all it's crew are @destroyed and @nuked, respectively.
It's downright unpleasant for the corpses, but it certainly makes people
take space combat seriously. We (the wizzes) were afraid of the concept
at first. In fact, I didn't like it one bit. But time has shown that
it's an idea with a lot of merit.
Lydia Leong
(Jason Skiles) writes:
>Over on TrekMuse, we have permanent character death, which I gather is
>something of an alien concept to muses and mushes.
Belgariad I and II (both MUSHes) had permanent character death. If you
allowed your character to register for combat, you could die. If you
died, you'd be teleported into a death room, where you'd be required
to rename your character; deaths would be logged so no cheating could
occur.
Renaming was used instead of destruction, so the character's objects
wouldn't be affected.
There weren't really major problems with this. On a conflict-oriented
game, permanent character death seems to be acceptable in a way that
it is not on a primarily role-playing social MUD, such as PernMUSH.
-------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
Lydia Leong, '94 | "For I am what I say, and what you do is who you are,
l...@seas.upenn.edu | And the words are all we cling to in the end.
l...@csa.bu.edu | For I don't have to see you to touch your heart...
l...@imsa.edu | And maybe this is fantasy, and maybe I am dreaming,
l...@elof.iit.edu | But maybe this is real life after all." - Perpetua@Pern
-------------------+---------------------------------------------------------