Coder shortage
Jared Trouth
to teach anyone. Granted, I'm not very versed in MUD administration, but
this seems to be very bad policy to me. I've managed to get my hands on
some lpc docs over the past year, and I believe I've managed to teach myself
very well, but most people would learn better with a teacher of some kind.
It seems to me that if MUDs want coders they should be willing to help
someone who wants to learn.
Those are my two cents, and I can't wait to hear all the flames I'm about
to get.
Have fun folks.
Michael G. Schabert
This isn't a flame about you...it's a flame about a bunch of the people
looking for coders. The problem is that the MUDs who have competent coders
are (for the most part) not looking for coders. The main people who post
looking for coders have NOTHING that they can teach you. They want coders
because they're incompetent and want someone else to do the work for them.
They just want to be able to say "I run the MUD". Since they're
incompetent, they need coders who can actually DO stuff, since they CAN'T
help.
Mike
--
Bikers don't *do* taglines.
Derek Harding
>
> This isn't a flame about you...it's a flame about a bunch of the people
> looking for coders. The problem is that the MUDs who have competent coders
> are (for the most part) not looking for coders. The main people who post
> looking for coders have NOTHING that they can teach you. They want coders
> because they're incompetent and want someone else to do the work for them.
> They just want to be able to say "I run the MUD". Since they're
> incompetent, they need coders who can actually DO stuff, since they CAN'T
> help.
>
To add another generalisation, most of the muds where people would like
to code ie. the ones that offer a good environment to code in and where
it's worthwhile coding are not advertising for coders. Many of those
muds actually put restrictions or requirements on their applicants for
coding positions.
In other words, if a mud asks for people to code on it I'd advise you
not to consider it. :)
Derek (Ceres@Discworld)
mwi...@my-dejanews.com
mike...@prez.buf.servtech.com (Michael G. Schabert) wrote:
> In article <6rt4eq$rmq$1...@sol.pdnt.net>, "Jared Trouth" <ph...@pdnt.com> wrote:
>
> >Everywhere I look there seems to be LP muds seeking coders but not willing
> >to teach anyone. Granted, I'm not very versed in MUD administration, but
> >this seems to be very bad policy to me. I've managed to get my hands on
> >some lpc docs over the past year, and I believe I've managed to teach myself
> >very well, but most people would learn better with a teacher of some kind.
> >It seems to me that if MUDs want coders they should be willing to help
> >someone who wants to learn.
> > Those are my two cents, and I can't wait to hear all the flames I'm about
> >to get.
>
> looking for coders. The problem is that the MUDs who have competent coders
> are (for the most part) not looking for coders. The main people who post
> looking for coders have NOTHING that they can teach you. They want coders
> because they're incompetent and want someone else to do the work for them.
> They just want to be able to say "I run the MUD". Since they're
> incompetent, they need coders who can actually DO stuff, since they CAN'T
> help.
Mike's right. Most muds that have competent staff and are willing to teach
don't *need* to advertise looking for programmers. We've constantly got more
applicants than we need, and we turn down more people than we hire. Just
about the only time you'll see an ad for DS staff is when we're looking for
somebody whose job *doesn't* involve code.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Marc Bowden
>
>Mike's right. Most muds that have competent staff and are willing to teach
>don't *need* to advertise looking for programmers. We've constantly got more
>applicants than we need, and we turn down more people than we hire. Just
>about the only time you'll see an ad for DS staff is when we're looking for
>somebody whose job *doesn't* involve code.
>
Just like that job managing the support staff (still open, by the way....)
========================================================================
Marc Bowden - Soulsinger D R E A M S H A D O W
Human Resources Director --------------------------
The Legacy of the Three
dreamer.telmaron.com 3333 or 209.118.172.5 3333 ry...@merit.edu
"We did not choose to become the guardians, but there is no one else."
========================================================================
Connie Fisher
Well,
I don't know precisely how it works with LP, but I know that as far as ROM
goes, the coder - mud ratio is much higher than it should be.
Learning to code for me was easy, because I was already a professional C
programmer. I saw the MUD as one of the many programs that I spend most of
my work day optimizing and improving. Anyway, I have written text files. The
reason nobody wants to teach anyone how to code is because:
a. They don't know ( You'll find that most muds that need coders haven't one )
b. They don't want to mess with some clueless newbie ( And I don't blame them )
Actually though, the problem will be that this apprentice coder will be too
impacient to learn well, and then I shall have a semi-competent pseudo-
programmer in my code. I say pseudo, because MUD code is not MUD, but simply
a program written in whatever language it was in ( C, C++, Java, Pascal et c.)
I now realize what I have written has varied slightly from this thread's topic,
but what I have said should have been said =]
--
-----
-Meric
-- Leaders being scarce, following yourself is allowed.
-- Never settle with words what can be accomplished with a flamethrower.
---me...@babba.advancenet.net
-----
chri...@usa.net
then the generalizations are horrible. Also, on a mud that has just started,
how else are you supposed to find people, aside from posting a message
somewhere? I don't want to sit by myself for a year just so I have something
to show others, I like to work with others to do something. Its more fun and
usually faster :)
In article <6rufu3$uvc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
mwi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <mikeride-240...@192.168.1.2>,
> mike...@prez.buf.servtech.com (Michael G. Schabert) wrote:
> > In article <6rt4eq$rmq$1...@sol.pdnt.net>, "Jared Trouth" <ph...@pdnt.com>
wrote:
> >
> > >Everywhere I look there seems to be LP muds seeking coders but not willing
> > >to teach anyone. Granted, I'm not very versed in MUD administration, but
> > >this seems to be very bad policy to me. I've managed to get my hands on
> > >some lpc docs over the past year, and I believe I've managed to teach
myself
> > >very well, but most people would learn better with a teacher of some kind.
> > >It seems to me that if MUDs want coders they should be willing to help
> > >someone who wants to learn.
> > > Those are my two cents, and I can't wait to hear all the flames I'm about
> > >to get.
> >
> > This isn't a flame about you...it's a flame about a bunch of the people
> > looking for coders. The problem is that the MUDs who have competent coders
> > are (for the most part) not looking for coders. The main people who post
> > looking for coders have NOTHING that they can teach you. They want coders
> > because they're incompetent and want someone else to do the work for them.
> > They just want to be able to say "I run the MUD". Since they're
> > incompetent, they need coders who can actually DO stuff, since they CAN'T
> > help.
>
> Mike's right. Most muds that have competent staff and are willing to teach
> don't *need* to advertise looking for programmers. We've constantly got more
> applicants than we need, and we turn down more people than we hire. Just
> about the only time you'll see an ad for DS staff is when we're looking for
> somebody whose job *doesn't* involve code.
>
Michael G. Schabert
>Are we talking about lp coding, or coding in C? I am asking since if it C,
>then the generalizations are horrible. Also, on a mud that has just started,
>how else are you supposed to find people, aside from posting a message
>somewhere? I don't want to sit by myself for a year just so I have something
>to show others, I like to work with others to do something. Its more fun and
>usually faster :)
The generalizations shouldn't change whether you're talking about C or LP
coding. If you're going to start a MUD, then you should have been MUDding
for awhile. Generally, you've made friends during that time. You talk with
those friends and come up with ideas for your MUD. If you just have an
epiphany and decide to throw up a MUD without anyone that you already
know, then you're an extreme idiot. Working with others is a good thing.
Working with others, where everyone is a stranger is suicide, and you
can't expect or trust a stranger to help you learn code, since you have no
reason to believe that they're any better than you are.
I don't use LP MUDs, so I don't know what the mudlib really looks like, or
how easy it is to comprehend just by studying, but in Merc derivatives,
you can code simple things without even ever opening up a "C" book. Pretty
much everything's commented, and you can do simple cut/paste to accomplish
many things. Certainly this won't make you a good programmer, but it
(hopefully) will teach you a little about what's going on behind the
scenes, and you can continue your education from there to learn to do more
complex things.
Just my opinions,
David Bennett
>somewhere? I don't want to sit by myself for a year just so I have
something
>to show others, I like to work with others to do something. Its more fun
and
>usually faster :)
Why not? I did! :)
Everyone should have to go through that. Whistles innocently.
Most larger muds do have methods in place for teaching people to code, some
of it is a little sketchy in places :) But there is a definite method and
documentation, plus the admin in question assigns people to help you and
checks over your work initially to make sure it is ok... Etc.
Where the wild roses grow in brilliant profusion,
David.
Kevin Doherty
<mikeride-250...@192.168.1.2>(Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:22:33 -0500):
>In article <6rv12f$n67$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, chri...@usa.net wrote:
>
>>Are we talking about lp coding, or coding in C? I am asking since if it C,
>>then the generalizations are horrible. Also, on a mud that has just started,
>>how else are you supposed to find people, aside from posting a message
>>to show others, I like to work with others to do something. Its more fun and
>>usually faster :)
>coding. If you're going to start a MUD, then you should have been MUDding
>for awhile. Generally, you've made friends during that time. You talk with
>those friends and come up with ideas for your MUD. If you just have an
>epiphany and decide to throw up a MUD without anyone that you already
>know, then you're an extreme idiot. Working with others is a good thing.
While advertising for a mud that you've just "thrown up" might not be a
good idea, just putting up a mud to play with hardly qualitfies someone
as an extreme idiot. Even if they do go to a newsgroup and ask for help
making a mud without any clear idea of what they want or how to do it,
as long as they accept criticism they'll be fine. Anyway, I don't see
how one dumbass throwing up a mud is any different from one dumbass
and his dumbass friends throwing up a mud. :P
>Working with others, where everyone is a stranger is suicide, and you
>can't expect or trust a stranger to help you learn code, since you have no
>reason to believe that they're any better than you are.
So what? As long as you're aware of this fact, you're fine. If I knew
nothing about C coding and someone offered to teach me or help me learn,
I see no reason why I wouldn't accept. As long as I'm willing to take
the time, even if it turns out to be wasted, I don't see a problem. If
said stranger is unhelpful or turns out unfriendly, well, I knew that
was a risk I was taking. In any case, if you're a newbie, you really
don't have much to lose other than time you spent.
>I don't use LP MUDs, so I don't know what the mudlib really looks like, or
>how easy it is to comprehend just by studying, but in Merc derivatives,
>you can code simple things without even ever opening up a "C" book. Pretty
>much everything's commented, and you can do simple cut/paste to accomplish
>many things. Certainly this won't make you a good programmer, but it
>(hopefully) will teach you a little about what's going on behind the
>scenes, and you can continue your education from there to learn to do more
>complex things.
Er, advising people to learn mud coding just by copying and pasting is a
really bad idea. Sure, it's possible someone could learn well like this,
but it's more likely that the person will still have no clue what the
hell he/she is doing and end up with mangled code. While learning C
is by no means a trivial task, it's probably the best way to begin to
comprehend mud code (in addition to reading your system's documentation,
like man pages).
>Just my opinions,
Yeah, well, if I were you, I'd avoid advertising that fact. Maybe you can
just end your posts with "Er, well that's what some guy told me once" or
"Or so I hear...". or just make your posts block quotes attributed to
Anonymous.
--
Kevin Doherty, kdoh...@jurai.net
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
-- Rincewind (from _Eric_)
Michael G. Schabert
kdohert...@sasami.jurai.net wrote:
>While advertising for a mud that you've just "thrown up" might not be a
>good idea, just putting up a mud to play with hardly qualitfies someone
>as an extreme idiot. Even if they do go to a newsgroup and ask for help
>making a mud without any clear idea of what they want or how to do it,
>as long as they accept criticism they'll be fine. Anyway, I don't see
>how one dumbass throwing up a mud is any different from one dumbass
>and his dumbass friends throwing up a mud. :P
That is so true...and that's why there's so many dumbass MUDs out there.
That's kind of why my explanation wasn't "talk with high school buddies
and decide you want to be GODs on a MUD". Mine was more like "in your
MUDding experience, you discuss MUD ideas with your online friends". Some
people certainly are best left at the player level.
>So what? As long as you're aware of this fact, you're fine. If I knew
>nothing about C coding and someone offered to teach me or help me learn,
>I see no reason why I wouldn't accept. As long as I'm willing to take
>the time, even if it turns out to be wasted, I don't see a problem. If
>said stranger is unhelpful or turns out unfriendly, well, I knew that
>was a risk I was taking. In any case, if you're a newbie, you really
>don't have much to lose other than time you spent.
Heh, I think it's just about as easy/quick to go buy a C/C++ book and
study the code/book for awhile. But, hey, more power to ya! I'm not
condemning it per se, I just think that you should be informed when you
make that decision. And the original post was complaining that current
MUDs won't take him under their wing to teach him to code and that the
advertising MUDs all want experienced coders/no newbies.
>Er, advising people to learn mud coding just by copying and pasting is a
>really bad idea. Sure, it's possible someone could learn well like this,
>but it's more likely that the person will still have no clue what the
>hell he/she is doing and end up with mangled code. While learning C
>is by no means a trivial task, it's probably the best way to begin to
>comprehend mud code (in addition to reading your system's documentation,
>like man pages).
I didn't tell them to learn MUD coding by cutting/pasting. I told them to
_begin_ learning to code by looking at example. Since we're specifically
talking about MUD coding, that example would be the MUD code. Yes, blindly
cutting/pasting can be bad. But most code that I've seen/used has been
well commented. I also followed that up by stating that they can continue
their education from that point. Learning by example is a well-documented
educational technique.
>>Just my opinions,
>
>Yeah, well, if I were you, I'd avoid advertising that fact. Maybe you can
>just end your posts with "Er, well that's what some guy told me once" or
>"Or so I hear...". or just make your posts block quotes attributed to
>Anonymous.
Why on earth would I wish to do that. That would be lying. I stated my
opinions, so I listed them as such. It's common decency :).
I don't hide.
Abe
stee...@no-mail-reply-to-newsgroup.com
> Everywhere I look there seems to be LP muds seeking coders but not willing
> to teach anyone.
> to get.
No flames. You're entirely correct.
Most of them, I think you'll find are people who've mudded for a bit, and
thought 'this is way cool' but wouldn't know an sprintf if it walked up
and slapped them in the gonads.
*sigh* So, they go find themselves a box (or not).
an internet connection (or not)
an ftp site (or not)
Most hit the 'I can't compile my [insert mud here] codebase' and do one
of a number of things :
1) Give up.
2) Post on a newgroup asking why they can't compile.
3) Post on a newsgroup asking for coders. :P
4) Post on a newsgroup asking if anyone knows any muds which run on win
95
This is assuming, of course that they actually *have* the eq to run it.
Otherwise you find posters who say 'I have this MUD. I need somewhere to
run it, I need coders, I need builders, I need players etc..'
What they have is an ftp site with a codebase sitting on it.
Personally. I've been coding muds for a number of years now, and am
looking to move from a rather small 'aber' type mud, to something a tad
larger, but am having trouble finding a 'suitable' site. Resorted to just
tinkering with my own circle setup to figure out what works best.. :)
Steeleye.
Salarius
<mikeride-240...@192.168.1.2>...
willing
but
> >this seems to be very bad policy to me. I've managed to get my hands on
> >some lpc docs over the past year, and I believe I've managed to teach
myself
> >very well, but most people would learn better with a teacher of some
kind.
> >It seems to me that if MUDs want coders they should be willing to help
> >someone who wants to learn.
Actually, there are some MUDs that are willing to teach coders... you just
have to ask around, and show a desire to learn.
> > Those are my two cents, and I can't wait to hear all the flames I'm
about
> >to get.
>
> This isn't a flame about you...it's a flame about a bunch of the people
> looking for coders. The problem is that the MUDs who have competent
coders
> are (for the most part) not looking for coders. The main people who post
> looking for coders have NOTHING that they can teach you. They want coders
> because they're incompetent and want someone else to do the work for
them.
> They just want to be able to say "I run the MUD". Since they're
> incompetent, they need coders who can actually DO stuff, since they CAN'T
> help.
>
For those of you that do not advertise for coders and are able to get your
MUD up and running quickly, that's fine. More power to ya. However, I
think the quality of the MUD is suspect if it takes no time at all to build
a MUD.
For those of us that are sick of the poor quality in mudding and have
branched out into very detailed and expansive projects, we understand the
need for more coders, good coders mind you, but more coders nevertheless.
I am currently working on a project right now that has been in design for
about two years. We have a small number of coders, area designers, and
story writers. We aren't lazy or slow, but have high expectations,
complicated projects, and we pay great attention to detail. Furthermore,
since most of us are college-age or older, have jobs (most of us coders are
programmers BTW), and are not 15-16yrs old, we don't have all day to
dedicate to the MUD, unfortunately.
So if at some point we did decide to advertise for coding help, I can
guarantee you it has nothing to do with talent or ability. I believe we
excel at both. We just have alot on our table and would like to complete
the MUD in the near future and see more than just coding done on it.
I wonder if Bill Gates sucks as a programmer because he employs so many...
just a thought.
--Salarius
Maarten D. de Jong
: Everywhere I look there seems to be LP muds seeking coders but not willing
: to teach anyone. Granted, I'm not very versed in MUD administration, but
No, I disagree. I see lots of people who do not want to be teached, or
think they'll be brilliant coders in a matter of a few hours. To put it
more mildly: most people underestimate the time needed to get to grips with
LPC. They start off enthusiastically, suffer a couple of setbacks, get
depressed thinking 'you either know it or you don't', figure out coding
isn't what they envisaged it would be, and ultimately give up. Stuff like
ints and strings is easy to understand. But now the fine art of object
inheritance, mappings, shadows, and so on.
Additionally, coding is just a part of the game: you need to be able to
think up original ideas, translate them into LPC, and then code them into
the computer. The manuals of Descartes, good as they may be, do not teach
you the translating part. Only the syntaxis.
: this seems to be very bad policy to me. I've managed to get my hands on
: some lpc docs over the past year, and I believe I've managed to teach myself
: very well, but most people would learn better with a teacher of some kind.
: It seems to me that if MUDs want coders they should be willing to help
: someone who wants to learn.
I'm more than willing to help people learn. But are the people willing
to be taught....?
Maarten
Collin Baillie
>to be taught....?
>
>
>Maarten
I do. But it take so a while to get to the level most muds require before
letting you become a wizard. I run LPMud at home with generic 2.4.5 mudlib,
I have studied a year of computer science, and have been told by people I am
very creative, and very observant. I am dying to get into it, but need
someone to have a look at what I'm doing, and give me a hand. Wanna give me
a hand?? ;)
Collin Baillie
chri...@usa.net
> coding. If you're going to start a MUD, then you should have been MUDding
> for awhile. Generally, you've made friends during that time. You talk with
> those friends and come up with ideas for your MUD. If you just have an
> epiphany and decide to throw up a MUD without anyone that you already
> know, then you're an extreme idiot. Working with others is a good thing.
> can't expect or trust a stranger to help you learn code, since you have no
>
Yes, the generalizations do apply. I have been mudding for 6 years now, and
admined for 5 of those years. But, I am don't know enough C, plus I have a
full-time job. If I were to do the entire mud by myself, including C coding,
it would never get far enough along. Also, why C is interesting, I much
prefer to write room/mob/item descriptions, write mob programs, etc. For me,
I would rather have a Coder-Partner to share ideas with and get more things
done.
I do have help in the form of another person who has great writing and
descriptive skills, but those don't always coincide with C coding skills.
> I don't use LP MUDs, so I don't know what the mudlib really looks like, or
> how easy it is to comprehend just by studying, but in Merc derivatives,
> you can code simple things without even ever opening up a "C" book. Pretty
> much everything's commented, and you can do simple cut/paste to accomplish
> many things. Certainly this won't make you a good programmer, but it
> (hopefully) will teach you a little about what's going on behind the
> scenes, and you can continue your education from there to learn to do more
> complex things.
>
Like I said, I know enough C to do things like edit/make spells, and a large
amount of rather simple things. But with a full-time job and a wife, I don't
have the time to do all the code changes that would be nice, and also try to
get a worldfile finished.
Chris
> Just my opinions,
> Mike
>
> --
> Bikers don't *do* taglines.
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Marc Bowden
Maarten D. de Jong <pleez...@rely.on.this.address> wrote:
>
>
>I'm more than willing to help people learn. But are the people willing
>to be taught....?
>
>
>Maarten
Roughly half our officer candidates drop out because they have it lodged
in their brains somewhere that they don't need any teaching, they're there
to save us, and so on. A *lot* of kids hitting our games now never had to
work for anything in school, at home, or in the real world (I really HATE
the 90s...) so the idea that they have to EARN something is completely
foreign to them.
The generalization usually applies to only the 12-18 crowd, but here
have been exceptions.
I for one can't imagine waltzing onto a MUD and demanding a cast spot,
but apparently, lots and lots of people do it. And actually believe they
deserve it.
mwi...@my-dejanews.com
"Collin Baillie" <NsOaS...@antispam.ar.com.au> wrote:
> I'm more than willing to help people learn. But are the people willing
> >to be taught....?
> >
> >
> >Maarten
>
> letting you become a wizard. I run LPMud at home with generic 2.4.5 mudlib,
> I have studied a year of computer science, and have been told by people I am
> very creative, and very observant. I am dying to get into it, but need
> someone to have a look at what I'm doing, and give me a hand. Wanna give me
> a hand?? ;)
Most places, the days of "playing to wiz" are long gone. I've seen muds
that require some minimum of playing time or level, but it's usually pretty
low: a few weeks occasional playing time. Many don't even require that.
Many muds (like DS) will take applicants 'off the street', but everybody goes
through a screening process to try and filter out the morons. If you're not
a moron, you could probably get into our training program, or another like
it.
You might have problems finding people to help you with your LP 2.4.5 - not
because it's difficult or they're unfriendly, but because they might not have
been around that long. Even if they have, they might not remember that far
back. :) If you have questions or want opinions, though, go ahead and post.
mwi...@my-dejanews.com
chri...@usa.net wrote:
> Are we talking about lp coding, or coding in C? I am asking since if it C,
> then the generalizations are horrible. Also, on a mud that has just started,
> how else are you supposed to find people, aside from posting a message
> somewhere? I don't want to sit by myself for a year just so I have something
> to show others, I like to work with others to do something. Its more fun and
> usually faster :)
The original post did specifically say this was regarding LPs. The situation
*should* be different in other muds - you can buy a book or take a class to
learn C, C++, et al. A few public documents exist to teach LPC (I would
highly recommend George's texts on LPC at <http://www.imaginary.com/LPC/>),
but even these are unavoidably geared towards a specific driver and library,
due to the fact that LPC can vary incredibly from mud to mud.
For your startup mud looking for assistance, in order to attract somebody's
attention you need to be doing something of value. The original post is
correct that most of these "Need Coder" posts sound like they're looking for
somebody to build their mud for them. It's not impossible to attract
programmers more talented than yourself to a project - you just need
something to convince them that it's a project worth working on. What really
differentiates your mud from every other?
I'd also suggest that before you start up your own mud, you should consider
learning on a more established mud first. You'll (hopefully) have people
willing to help you learn, you'll gain some experience both in programming
and in administration (even if only from listening to the admins complain),
and you might make some friends who would be willing to help you with your
startup.
> In article <6rufu3$uvc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> mwi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <mikeride-240...@192.168.1.2>,
> > mike...@prez.buf.servtech.com (Michael G. Schabert) wrote:
> > > In article <6rt4eq$rmq$1...@sol.pdnt.net>, "Jared Trouth" <ph...@pdnt.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Everywhere I look there seems to be LP muds seeking coders but not
^^
[SNIP REST] ^^
David Bennett
<6s1d74$i4j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> You might have problems finding people to help you with your LP 2.4.5 -
not
>because it's difficult or they're unfriendly, but because they might not
have
>been around that long. Even if they have, they might not remember that far
>back. :) If you have questions or want opinions, though, go ahead and
post.
And because it is unfriendly :) It is not difficult true.
May the fluffy bits never get caught in a money bug,
David.
Michael G. Schabert
wrote:
>I wonder if Bill Gates sucks as a programmer because he employs so many...
>just a thought.
Have you ever used MicroSloth programs? The question seems to answer
itself for me.
Abe
Craig S Dohmen
Salarius wrote in message <01bdd0b0$2ae95c40$cf031b26@pw>...
>Actually, there are some MUDs that are willing to teach coders... you
just
>have to ask around, and show a desire to learn.
I'd rather have someone who can write interesting descriptions. I can
teach anyone how to code. I can't teach someone how to be creative.
--Craig
Collin Baillie
>
>back. :) If you have questions or want opinions, though, go ahead and
post.
>
ok then :)
For starters, I was wondering what someone might think of the alteration to
my castle.c file :) Here it is...
------------------- Start Castle.c -------------------------
#define NAME "Om"
#define DEST "room/eastroad5"
/*
* This is just the facade to a castle. If you want to enable the
* "enter" command, move the player to a hall or something (which
* you have to design yourself).
* The predefined string DEST is where a player should come when he
* leaves the castle.
*
* This file is loaded automatically from "init_file". We have to move
* ourself to where we are supposed to be.
*/
/*
* Still to be implimented in this castle:
* =======================================
*
* External notices for paying, praying, and reading.
*
* Somewhere for people to go to when they do enter the castle.
*
* open_gate() and close_gate() functions.
*
* Some way of blessing people for paying homage.
*
*/
int gate_is_open=0, gift=0, player_gold=0;
id(str) { return str == "castle" || str == "sign"; }
short() {
return "An ivy covered castle rests here";
}
long(str) {
if (str=="castle") {
write("\nThis is the magnificant castle of Om.\n");
write("On the outer stone walls, an ivy crawler grows, blending the
castle into\n");
write("the surrounding country side. There is a small sign on one of
the\n");
write("supporting pillars. The iron gates which allow entry are ");
if (gate_is_open) {
write("open.\n");
return;
}
write ("closed.\n");
return;
}
if (str=="sign") {
write("\nIt is a simple wooden sign. You might like to 'read' it.\n");
return 1;
}
return 0;
}
init() {
add_action("enter", "enter");
add_action("read", "read");
add_action("pay", "pay");
add_action("pray", "pray");
}
enter(str) {
if (!id(str))
return 0;
if (!gate_is_open) {
write("The gates impede your entry.\n");
return 1;
}
/* write("The huge gates boom shut behind you as you make you way into
the portculis.\n");
* wait for one heartbeat;
* move player to hallway or similar;
*/
write("Still to be implimented.\n");
gate_is_open=0;
return 1;
}
read(str) {
if (str != "sign")
return 0;
write("\nThe simple sign reads:\n");
write("======================\n");
write("He who wishes entry\n");
write("To gain it must he give\n");
write("If she wanteth passage\n");
write("A votage she must give.\n");
write("A HOMAGE must you PAY.\n\n");
return 1;
}
pay(str) {
if (str != "homage")
return 0;
player_gold=this_player()->query_money();
write("You have "+player_gold+" coins.\n\n");
gift=player_gold/10;
if (gift>100)
gift=100;
else if (gift<1)
gift=0;
if (gift>0) {
write("You pay "+NAME+" "+gift+" gold coins from your purse. \n");
write("The huge gates swing ponderously on their hinges, groaning
loadly\n");
gate_is_open=1;
return 1;
}
write("You are too poor to afford an offatory. "+NAME+" refuses you take
your money.\n");
return 1;
}
pray() {
if(!gate_is_open) {
write("You have reached the gates of "+NAME+". PAY your HOMAGE before
entering\n");
return 1;
}
write("The huge gates boom shut\n");
gate_is_open=0;
return 1;
}
reset(arg) {
if (arg)
return;
move_object(this_object(), DEST);
}
------------------- End castle.c -----------------
Ok, now what I really wanted to do was to make this castle look like a
meandering path leading off to the west. But, it seems if you change the id
so it doesn't return TRUE for castle, it won't load the object. So I figured
I'd make it look like a good castle instead ;)
What I have to do is make the changing of the gate status into a funtcion,
which notifies the players, and the other people standing on the road with
him. So a open_gate() and a close_gate() or perhaps simply a change_gate()
funtion.
Next I have to actually know how to take their money, and put it in my
pocket, or somewhere I can get it. I had thought of putting it into a bank
account, for me, or for them, but the player would definitely get a benefit
out of it, not just me. And it would be a nice surprise for them to suddenly
realise they had X in their inventory, or they had a bank account with X
coins in it wouldn't it?? :)
The praying section is really only for me to reset the door. As you can see
players wouldn't know about it unless they tried pray by chance...
Other than this, I haven't done too much. Trying to advance ones character
on a live mud, and applying for work at the same time kinda restricts ones
time. I would like to start changing the whole town and make it different.
So I guess this is a good place to start :)
Thanks for anyone who's interested, sorry to anyone who thinks it's a waste
of bandwidth...
Collin
Collin Baillie
>that require some minimum of playing time or level, but it's usually pretty
>low: a few weeks occasional playing time. Many don't even require that.
>Many muds (like DS) will take applicants 'off the street', but everybody
goes
>through a screening process to try and filter out the morons. If you're
not
>a moron, you could probably get into our training program, or another like
>it.
Ok, so which mud do you use then?? ;) (I am unfamiliar with the meaning of
DS) I would like to think I am *not* a moron :) I do have creative ideas
(see r.g.m.lp for my idea on remote effects, and noise factors) I am
seriously interested in doing this if someone can help me out for a few
months until I get the hang of it all... :)
Collin
Collin Baillie
Collin Baillie wrote in message <35e4d...@bn.ar.com.au>...
>
>mwi...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><6s1d74$i4j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>>
>>back. :) If you have questions or want opinions, though, go ahead and
>post.
>>
>
>
>ok then :)
>
>For starters, I was wondering what someone might think of the alteration to
>my castle.c file :) Here it is...
<snip>
From now on I shall *try* to keep this in r.g.m.lp as I don't think its
really an admin thingy :)
Collin
Kevin Doherty
<6s2d42$fe4$1...@winter.news.erols.com>(Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:32:27 -0400):
This is a bogus assertion. Treating coding as uncreative and the ability
to write interesting descriptions as the One True Measure of creativity
is just dumb. While I would argue that I need builders more than coders,
it doesn't mean that anyone who can't write interesting descriptions is
useless or that coding is trivial. There are a lot of people who can
contribute a lot to the mud and still write really crappy areas. Good
writing is not the same as creativity.
Marc Bowden
Collin Baillie <NsOaS...@antispam.ar.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>Ok, so which mud do you use then?? ;) (I am unfamiliar with the meaning of
>DS) I would like to think I am *not* a moron :) I do have creative ideas
>(see r.g.m.lp for my idea on remote effects, and noise factors) I am
>seriously interested in doing this if someone can help me out for a few
>months until I get the hang of it all... :)
>
>
Apply via Dreamshadow's internal mail to myself and Silarek. We have a class
already started, but you might be able to catch up to them.
To apply you'll need to be 18 years of age and have an officer sponsor.
(Mickelian sounds willing.) Type 'news Before_Applying' or look at note
one on the Shrine as you first log in and follow those directions.
mwi...@my-dejanews.com
> >that require some minimum of playing time or level, but it's usually pretty
> >low: a few weeks occasional playing time. Many don't even require that.
> >Many muds (like DS) will take applicants 'off the street', but everybody
> goes
> >through a screening process to try and filter out the morons. If you're
> not
> >a moron, you could probably get into our training program, or another like
> >it.
>
> DS)
Sorry 'bout that.. DS is Dreamshadow, at dreamer.telmaron.com 3333 :)
I would like to think I am *not* a moron :) I do have creative ideas
> (see r.g.m.lp for my idea on remote effects, and noise factors) I am
> seriously interested in doing this if someone can help me out for a few
> months until I get the hang of it all... :)
I thought that was a good idea (and I plan to adapt it for use somewhere).
Whatever you do decide to do with it, good luck!
chri...@usa.net
mwi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
<SNIP about original post>
>
Sorry about that, then. We have diverged slightly to the topic, but I suppose
its still relevant. This news server isn't that up-to-date I suppose.
> For your startup mud looking for assistance, in order to attract somebody's
> attention you need to be doing something of value. The original post is
> correct that most of these "Need Coder" posts sound like they're looking for
> somebody to build their mud for them.
>
Yes, a great many of them do. Also, most of them don't really say what their
mud is about(theme, etc), what codebase it is, and what sort of hardware they
are running on.
But, this is of course not always the case. Like for me I prefer to write the
world descriptions and do things that are termed 'building' on the mudbase I
use (5 year old diku gamma derivative, not in public domain). In terms of
coding in C, I would prefer to have someone else much more capable than me do
that part :) I am a decent, creative writer, but I am by no means the best C
coder in the world.
> It's not impossible to attract
> programmers more talented than yourself to a project - you just need
> something to convince them that it's a project worth working on. What really
> differentiates your mud from every other?
>
The building scene seems easy to attract people, but most don't seem to have
good writing skills, and quite a few don't have any staying power. C coders
seem much harder to acquire.
In terms of differentiation, I have quite a bit to offer in terms of a unique
codebase and other items.
> I'd also suggest that before you start up your own mud, you should consider
> learning on a more established mud first. You'll (hopefully) have people
> willing to help you learn, you'll gain some experience both in programming
> and in administration (even if only from listening to the admins complain),
> and you might make some friends who would be willing to help you with your
> startup.
>
I know you posted before my last post, but thats Usenet :). You are
absolutely correct here. Anyone who wants to start a mud should have a -lot-
of experience. Being an admin is hard work, especially if you do an 'rp' mud
since it requires even more direct admin intervention than the average mud.
Regardless, you need passion and an understanding of the commitment involved
in running a mud. Good people skills also are a must in my opinion.
Admin-admin relations can kill a mud, and have killed many.
I hope to trudge along for a while working on my world file with a few good
helpers, and hope that one of them (or me) runs into a good coder down the
road. Until then, quite a bit of the world can be done at least.
Cheers,
Chris
Craig S Dohmen
Kevin Doherty wrote in message ...
>is just dumb. While I would argue that I need builders more than
coders,
>it doesn't mean that anyone who can't write interesting descriptions
is
>useless or that coding is trivial. There are a lot of people who can
Jeez. Did I say so? I said I'd *rather* have someone who can write.
Someone who can churn out shiny code is nice too. :)
--Craig
Richard Woolcock
Interesting perspective. I see coders (and I mean REAL coders, not some
kid who knows how to cut and paste) as the driving force behind mud
development. Builders have their place, and are certainly important in
most muds, but I tend to think of them as 'lesser imms', unless they
are very good.
KaVir.
chryse
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<35E66E...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>...
> Interesting perspective. I see coders (and I mean REAL coders, not some
> kid who knows how to cut and paste) as the driving force behind mud
> development. Builders have their place, and are certainly important in
> most muds, but I tend to think of them as 'lesser imms', unless they
> are very good.
>
> KaVir.
Being a builder, I can't say I agree with your analysis. Brilliant builders are
just as rare and precious to a mud's development as brilliant coders, and
both are indispensible, if you want to make a truly unique mud. Cutting and
pasting stock areas is just as easy as cutting and pasting code snippets, and
both lead to boring muds. It's true that coders are the driving force behind
mud development as a whole, but, if you look at muds individually, the true
importance of builders can be seen, since good building gives the mud it's
sense of being a unique "world". It's also true that joe schmoe player
won't care wether he is trudging through poorly written or stock areas,
but they also won't care how brilliant your code is, unless it makes their
lives easier. Basically, a mud can survive without good coders, or
without good builders. A truly great mud has *both*, and treats their
coders and builders with equal respect, because they know without them,
they are just another boring dime a dozen operation.
Chryse
Richard Woolcock
>
[snip a lot]
> Basically, a mud can survive without good coders, or
> without good builders. A truly great mud has *both*, and treats their
> coders and builders with equal respect, because they know without them,
> they are just another boring dime a dozen operation.
Well I'm attempting to create a mud without builders ;)
KaVir.
Derek Harding
>
> Thus spake Craig S Dohmen <doh...@erols.com> in
> <6s2d42$fe4$1...@winter.news.erols.com>(Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:32:27 -0400):
> >
> >teach anyone how to code. I can't teach someone how to be creative.
>
> This is a bogus assertion. Treating coding as uncreative and the ability
> to write interesting descriptions as the One True Measure of creativity
> it doesn't mean that anyone who can't write interesting descriptions is
> useless or that coding is trivial. There are a lot of people who can
> writing is not the same as creativity.
>
I don't think that was quite what Craig was getting at. Your response
took his comments to an extreme that didn't seem to be warrented by his
post. While this is a common tactic on usenet it's really not necessary.
Creators on Discworld tend to be given fairly straightforward coding
tasks (coding is required for creation of all rooms/objects). As Craig
asserts, the skills required for this can be taught to almost anyone.
What is harder to teach people though is the creative writing and
creative thought associated with writing areas of the mud.
Very often the best areas are not those written by the best coders but
by those with the most intersting/imaginitive style of writing.
Thus on balance I would support Craig's assertion (reworded): That
generally I would rather have someone with an imaginitive and
interesting writing style but who doesn't know programming than a good
programmer who can't write to save his or her life.
Derek (Ceres@Discworld)
chryse
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
>
> Well I'm attempting to create a mud without builders ;)
>
> KaVir.
Sounds intriguing.... :) What did you have in mind, if you don't mind
me asking?
Chryse :)
Richard Woolcock
Well, one of my main objectives is to create a mud that is as automated
as possible. Player/room/object descriptions are mud generated - even
some of the helpfiles are done this way (thus the helpfiles alter
themselves to become more personalised to the viewer).
KaVir.
chryse
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<35E6C1...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>...
> Well, one of my main objectives is to create a mud that is as automated
> as possible. Player/room/object descriptions are mud generated - even
> some of the helpfiles are done this way (thus the helpfiles alter
> themselves to become more personalised to the viewer).
>
> KaVir.
Sounds interesting. :) Now, what would be the advantages to this, over
the usual "hand-built" areas/objects? I must say, I do like the idea of
"personalized" helpfiles.
Chryse
Richard Woolcock
Well the main advantage is that - as I stated in my first post - I don't
need builders. I'm also able to have descriptions which change themselves
automatically (so "a steel longsword" might become "a notched steel longsword",
or "a blood-stained steel longsword" after a fight, while a room would change
it's description to indicate that someone had build a brick wall to one side,
and a player's description would update to show that s/he had lost an eye).
There are disadvantages as well, of course, such as descriptions which are
often bland, repetative and inpersonal. That's a price I'm willing to pay.
KaVir.
my...@my-dejanews.com
Maybe it's that view which has led to the creation of all these thousands of
similar muds, which all play EXACTLY the same, but have different pretty
descriptions. I'd rather play somewhere with a truely unique code base than
somewhere which was stock with a couple of frilled up areas in it.
Sure, you can teach anyone to code. But you can't make them a decent coder.
Let alone a coder capable of writing a unique playing world. Just as in the
real world architects are bound by the laws of physics, mud area writers are
bound by the laws of the code. For example the mud I last worked on had
different room descriptions depending on the time of day, so that's instantly
increased the possible effect of the areas we had making them a lot more
interesting. But I would credit the coders with making this possible, rather
than the builders for adding their pretty descriptions.
D. Joseph Creighton
}"Collin Baillie" <NsOaS...@antispam.ar.com.au> wrote:
}> I do. But it take so a while to get to the level most muds require before
}> letting you become a wizard. I run LPMud at home with generic 2.4.5 mudlib,
}> I have studied a year of computer science, and have been told by people I am
}> very creative, and very observant. I am dying to get into it, but need
}> someone to have a look at what I'm doing, and give me a hand. Wanna give me
}> a hand?? ;)
}
}that require some minimum of playing time or level, but it's usually pretty
}low: a few weeks occasional playing time. Many don't even require that.
This is probably why many muds are so poorly put together. There's much
to be said for not taking folks "off the street" and instead, accepting
those who "play to wiz": familiarity with the playing environment;
complete visualization of the world and possible areas of expansion;
shortcomings (I hear they exist on other muds :) and areas for change.
}Many muds (like DS) will take applicants 'off the street', but everybody goes
}through a screening process to try and filter out the morons. If you're not
}a moron, you could probably get into our training program, or another like
}it.
Regardless of how one gets there, you're right: if not properly screened
or trained, you could end up with some dozy coders...
} You might have problems finding people to help you with your LP 2.4.5 - not
}because it's difficult or they're unfriendly, but because they might not have
}been around that long. Even if they have, they might not remember that far
}back. :)
Hey, I resemble that remark! ;)
We did what's rare today: the mud was stripped down and rebuilt by two
people over a six month period before it was opened to the public. That,
IMO, is the kind of serious approach and dedication which is required
to ensure a quality mud...
- Joe (aka Johanne @ Frontier LP, established 1990)
--
"It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you." -- Anon.
http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~djc/
D. Joseph Creighton [ESTP] | Programmer Analyst, Database Technologies, IST
Joe_Cr...@UManitoba.CA | University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB, Canada, eh?
David Bennett
>Maybe it's that view which has led to the creation of all these thousands
of
>similar muds, which all play EXACTLY the same, but have different pretty
>descriptions. I'd rather play somewhere with a truely unique code base
than
>somewhere which was stock with a couple of frilled up areas in it.
Come to Discworld and tell us we have a stock mud... I dare you :) I also
don't think that being creative is just writing descriptions. There is also
the bits which go along with the descriptions, the puzzles and the cute
things you can do in rooms. People which are imaginative do not tend to
just write pretty descriptions, unless your on a diku of course then you
have no choice :)
Lie still little bottle, shake my shakey hand, black coffee is not enough
for me! I need a better friend,
David.
David Bennett
<6s6hql$e6j$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>...
>We did what's rare today: the mud was stripped down and rebuilt by two
>people over a six month period before it was opened to the public. That,
>IMO, is the kind of serious approach and dedication which is required
>to ensure a quality mud...
Only 6 months? You people have no idea of staying power these days :) Its
probably the lack of cabbage in your diet.
Sprinking hundreds and thousands on his bread,
David.
George Reese
the atmosphere of a mud which makes it unique. The coding has very
little to do with it.
In rec.games.mud.lp my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: In article <35E62048...@tpdinc.com>,
: Maybe it's that view which has led to the creation of all these thousands of
: similar muds, which all play EXACTLY the same, but have different pretty
: descriptions. I'd rather play somewhere with a truely unique code base than
: somewhere which was stock with a couple of frilled up areas in it.
: Sure, you can teach anyone to code. But you can't make them a decent coder.
: Let alone a coder capable of writing a unique playing world. Just as in the
: real world architects are bound by the laws of physics, mud area writers are
: bound by the laws of the code. For example the mud I last worked on had
: different room descriptions depending on the time of day, so that's instantly
: increased the possible effect of the areas we had making them a lot more
: interesting. But I would credit the coders with making this possible, rather
: than the builders for adding their pretty descriptions.
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
: http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
--
George Reese (bo...@imaginary.com) http://www.imaginary.com/~borg
PGP Key: http://www.imaginary.com/servlet/Finger?user=borg&verbose=yes
"Keep Ted Turner and his goddamned Crayolas away from my movie."
-Orson Welles
Lars Duening
> It is exactly the descriptiveness of the rooms and the uniqueness of
> the atmosphere of a mud which makes it unique. The coding has very
> little to do with it.
Comparing coding and building is as sensible as comparing oranges and
apples. You need both to create a good mud.
--
Lars Duening; la...@cableinet.co.uk
Cyber Angel
[Big Snip]
>Er, advising people to learn mud coding just by copying and pasting is a
>really bad idea. Sure, it's possible someone could learn well like this,
>but it's more likely that the person will still have no clue what the
>hell he/she is doing and end up with mangled code. While learning C
>is by no means a trivial task, it's probably the best way to begin to
>comprehend mud code (in addition to reading your system's documentation,
>like man pages).
>
>>Just my opinions,
>
I would have to agree. I ahev programmed in several languages, and I even
debug code for my coders, but since I am not that familiar with syntax of C,
I leave the coding to my coders. (not to mention with all the admin tasks, I
have no time to learn C)
I do, however, encourage my staff to take time to teach people that have
gone out of thier way to learn to program. Currently, I have an excellent
coder who came to me wanting to learn. Turned out to be one of the best
things I did for the mud.
CA
Michael G. Schabert
jlsy...@nospam.ix.netcom.com (Jon A. Lambert) wrote:
>"Any programmer who will ever be good is good in the first few years.
> After that whether a programmer is good or not is cast in concrete."
> - Bill Gates
Yeah...like HE's any judge of a good coder!!! MS code is some of the worst
on the planet.
George Reese
In rec.games.mud.lp Michael G. Schabert <mike...@prez.buf.servtech.com> wrote:
: In article <6s9cqv$9...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
: Abe
--
John Adelsberger
: Interesting perspective. I see coders (and I mean REAL coders, not some
: kid who knows how to cut and paste) as the driving force behind mud
: development. Builders have their place, and are certainly important in
: most muds, but I tend to think of them as 'lesser imms', unless they
: are very good.
My view here is similar, but not quite identical. This is probably because,
to a limited extent, everyone building an LP is a coder. I look at it like
this, and I admit that without LPC, this wouldn't work:
Bring on new people as what are usually referred to as builders, unless you
have solid knowledge of their having the ability to do more serious code.
The ones that have any chance of being decent coders will learn, as long as
you let them do so. The ones that don't won't.
The difference is that code ability is not the _only_ way to gain
responsibilities. I'll also need talented writers who will eventually
end up(in addition to doing areas) checking other peoples' work and
correcting any mistakes caught in existing text. I'll also need good
managers, much though I wish it were otherwise. Since I have as much
desire to deal with angry 14 year olds as I do to slam my head into
walls repeatedly, I'll want one or more player admins. These people
might gain considerable influence and positions despite their relative
lack of coding ability, because they can provide valuable services that
I don't otherwise have. Sure, anyone would be happy to have me as a
builder, a coder, or a quality control man, but nobody would want me
as a player admin or a manager unless he was on drugs, and I admit it
readily. If I want to run a successful game, I have to deal with that.
You're right about this: the coders are the most essential people to the
game, because without them, it couldn't even exist. This doesn't mean
that other people aren't just as vital to making it a GOOD game. I
intend to obtain their services, get out of their way, and use the freed
time to write more code:)
--
John J. Adelsberger III
j...@umr.edu
"Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
- Ayn Rand
John Adelsberger
: This is totally false. Programming can be picked up in months. The
: basics of coding can be picked up in days.
Agreed, but design, while it comes almost naturally to a lucky few, is a
skill that takes most people a _long_ time to get to be any good at, and
if you want to write or really rework something the size of a mud, you'd
best have considerable design skills. It is easy to look at your friends
and say, 'Hey, this is easy - just look at us!' The fact remains,
however, that most people off the street would need to invest more time
and effort than the few we see; the majority of the successful are
successful because they pick up what they do more easily than most others.
John Adelsberger
: Yeah, I am sure you have had a look at any of it.
: In rec.games.mud.lp Michael G. Schabert wrote:
: : Yeah...like HE's any judge of a good coder!!! MS code is some of the worst
: : on the planet.
I have, and he's right. The only thing I've seen that's uglier is GNU code.
I'm told it gets even worse than that, but I find this hard to believe, if
we're talking about systems that actually work correctly even part of the
time.
George Reese
Anyone creating a mud and learning to code at the same time is a
fool. As you point out, the programming skills of creating a mud
involve advanced programming concepts (such as design) that learning
to code while building is akin to learning to fly jet planes before
you learn to walk.
In rec.games.mud.lp John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
: In rec.games.mud.admin George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
: : This is totally false. Programming can be picked up in months. The
: : basics of coding can be picked up in days.
: Agreed, but design, while it comes almost naturally to a lucky few, is a
: skill that takes most people a _long_ time to get to be any good at, and
: if you want to write or really rework something the size of a mud, you'd
: best have considerable design skills. It is easy to look at your friends
: and say, 'Hey, this is easy - just look at us!' The fact remains,
: however, that most people off the street would need to invest more time
: and effort than the few we see; the majority of the successful are
: successful because they pick up what they do more easily than most others.
: --
: John J. Adelsberger III
: j...@umr.edu
: "Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
: - Ayn Rand
--
Matthew R. Sheahan
> I have, and he's right. The only thing I've seen that's uglier is GNU code.
> I'm told it gets even worse than that, but I find this hard to believe, if
> we're talking about systems that actually work correctly even part of the
> time.
it gets worse than that. let me know if you get your hands on some of
the code that runs on AT&T 3ESS switches and tell me what you think then.
the sort of phrasing which i have heard runs to things like "a million
lines of spaghetti code".
chiaroscuro
Kevin Doherty
<35e89...@news.cc.umr.edu>(30 Aug 98 00:38:29 GMT):
>
>: In rec.games.mud.lp Michael G. Schabert wrote:
>
>: : Yeah...like HE's any judge of a good coder!!! MS code is some of the worst
>: : on the planet.
>I'm told it gets even worse than that, but I find this hard to believe, if
>we're talking about systems that actually work correctly even part of the
>time.
Qmail and procmail are more hideous than any GNU code I've seen (officially
GNU, that is, not just GPL'd). Gotta love that whole "why only put one
statement per line when you can concatenate 3 onto the same line?" philosphy.
Also, grep 'void main' in qmail's source directory is particularly fearsome.
--
Kevin Doherty, kdoh...@jurai.net
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
-- Rincewind (from _Eric_)
D. Joseph Creighton
}>people over a six month period before it was opened to the public. That,
}>IMO, is the kind of serious approach and dedication which is required
}>to ensure a quality mud...
}
}Only 6 months? You people have no idea of staying power these days :)
Bah, we were full-time students back then in university. This meant we
spent every waking hour coding instead of going to class or doing our
assignments (of course ;) Our three years of running an LP on donated
campus equipment was a pretty good deal in those days...
}Its probably the lack of cabbage in your diet.
We had plenty of Coke in our diet. Better taste. Different gas.
- Joe
--
"Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand." -- Mark Twain
Scatter ///oo/\)
>> :> > >I'd rather have someone who can write interesting descriptions. I can
>> :> > >teach anyone how to code. I can't teach someone how to be creative.
>like you learn high school science. it takes years and years of
>practice before you can get good enough to take apart a mud and put
>it back together again. coding isn't just a skill, it's a way of life.
You don't have to be able to take the mud apart and put it back together
in order to make a useful contribution to the mud. I was able to teach my
girlfriend to code well enough to produce detailed rooms, npcs, weapons
etc. in just a few hours. After a week or so she was able to add quests,
puzzles and add lots of neat little features herself - and this is someone who
was initially terrified of anything with a '{' in it.
You can't teach someone to be imaginative and creative - its a talent
you either have or you don't. You can teach people how to implement
their ideas, it's only showing them how to tell the computer what they
want, after all.
--
Scatter ///\oo/\\\
Burntnjall
>You can't teach someone to be imaginative and creative - its a talent
>you either have or you don't. You can teach people how to implement
You cant teach writers to be creative, true. Neither can you teach
coders to be creative. While you can teach BOTH how to implement their ideas,
its pointless to assume that only the "writers" are creative.
While the rudiments of coding can be readily learned, so can the rudiments of
writing. The creativeness of a good coder is comparable to the creativeness of
a good writer. If good prose was paramount,
we'd all be reading and writing as a hobby instead of coding muds.
regards,
Njall.
Scatter ///oo/\)
>Scatter wrote:
>>You can't teach someone to be imaginative and creative - its a talent
>>you either have or you don't. You can teach people how to implement
>>their ideas [snip]
>
>You cant teach writers to be creative, true. Neither can you teach
>coders to be creative.
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote above. You can't teach creativity.
>While you can teach BOTH how to implement their ideas,
>its pointless to assume that only the "writers" are creative.
I couldn't have made that assumption since I never even mentioned
writers. :) Writing nice descriptions is a small part of making an
area good.
>While the rudiments of coding can be readily learned, so can the rudiments of
>writing. The creativeness of a good coder is comparable to the creativeness of
>a good writer. If good prose was paramount,
>we'd all be reading and writing as a hobby instead of coding muds.
Writing good prose not the same thing as creativity. You can teach people
to write good prose, but if they are not creative people then they will not
have original ideas to turn into good prose. Similarly you can teach people
to write good code, but if they are not creative people then they will not
have original ideas to implement in their code.
--
Scatter ///\oo/\\\
David Poythress
>
> This is totally false. Programming can be picked up in months. The
> basics of coding can be picked up in days.
That only applies to some folks, George. For example, only certain
programmers can be trusted to work on compilers.
--
David Poythress d...@qni.com
"Grammar, which controls even kings ..." --Moliere
Darren Henderson
>This is totally false. Programming can be picked up in months. The
>basics of coding can be picked up in days.
Coding a simple room in LPC can be picked up in days.
Some rudimentary programming can be picked up in months. A new student can
pick up their first language in a few months. Knowing a language does not
a programmer make. Before they can produce any substantial work they have
to at least be exposed to such conepts as algorithms, queuing theory, data
structures etc etc. That doesn't mean they need formal training but unless
they are truely exceptionaly it does mean more then a few months.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Darren Henderson dar...@somtel.com
Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/
George Reese
: George Reese (bo...@imaginary.com) wrote:
:>This is totally false. Programming can be picked up in months. The
:>basics of coding can be picked up in days.
: Coding a simple room in LPC can be picked up in days.
: Some rudimentary programming can be picked up in months. A new student can
: pick up their first language in a few months. Knowing a language does not
: a programmer make. Before they can produce any substantial work they have
: to at least be exposed to such conepts as algorithms, queuing theory, data
: structures etc etc. That doesn't mean they need formal training but unless
: they are truely exceptionaly it does mean more then a few months.
Nonsense. For example, I know jack about queuing theory. A language
does make a programer. Someone who knows a language can be given
simple tasks to do and go do it. Someone who knows a bit about
writing aesthetic code can, on top of that, be trusted with more
complex code.
I hate to say it, but I think Bill Gates was right on this one.
John Adelsberger
: Nonsense. For example, I know jack about queuing theory.
: A language does make a programer.
Well, George, there are those people who would argue that your knowledge
of your chosen profession is... lacking in depth:) Personally, I think
that when something else becomes the hot item and Java becomes just
another language, people like you are going to be poor in a big hurry,
which is why I didn't drop out of my CS program to make $40k a year this
last summer:)
[quote repeated by me here]
: A language does make a programer.
Assuming this to be a true statement, I no longer have to wonder why most
people titled 'programmer' have a hard time with anything requiring actual
thought processes.
: Someone who knows a language can be given
: simple tasks to do and go do it.
And by the time he gets it right, the boss could have done it himself.
Of course, M$ doesn't CARE about getting it right, as witnessed by the
fact that companies routinely pay upwards of $150k a year to anyone
who can keep a large Exchange installation running(no, not for conversion
or anything else fancy; just keeping it RUNNING is worth this much when
downtime has to be near zero:)
: Someone who knows a bit about
: writing aesthetic code can, on top of that, be trusted with more
: complex code.
Um... no. If by complex you mean 'longer than a screenful,' then sure, but
most peoples' idea of complex probably involves at least a minimal knowledge
of algorithms, data structures(even just using them effectively requires
some knowledge of their characteristics,) debugging technique, and so forth,
none of which is implied by 'aesthetic code,' whatever that silliness means.
(Does it mean 'code run through indent with my favorite options?' Maybe you
mean 'code with well chosen variable names?' Frankly, 'aesthetic' just isn't
a very precise term:)
David Bennett
>none of which is implied by 'aesthetic code,' whatever that silliness
means.
>(Does it mean 'code run through indent with my favorite options?' Maybe
you
>mean 'code with well chosen variable names?' Frankly, 'aesthetic' just
isn't
>a very precise term:)
True... But coding standards and following coding standards do make more
readable and more maintainable code.
Most code spends well over 50% of its time in the maintenance cycle which
makes code which looks good and is easy to read a very major point when
writing it. There are many other things you can do to code to make it
easier to maintain, which are often small tricks and things learnt over
time. assert() for instance (which is much harder to do in java, a definite
failing of that language...). 'Writing Solid Code' by Microsoft press has a
lot of good ideas in it, even if Microsoft don't follow them any more... As
does 'Code Complete' also by Microsoft press.
Remember to think of the people that will come after you,
David.
George Reese
: : Nonsense. For example, I know jack about queuing theory.
: : A language does make a programer.
: Well, George, there are those people who would argue that your knowledge
: of your chosen profession is... lacking in depth:)
Not a single person who actually know and works with me. Just quacks
like you who think $40K is a lot of money.
: Personally, I think
: that when something else becomes the hot item and Java becomes just
: another language, people like you are going to be poor in a big hurry,
: which is why I didn't drop out of my CS program to make $40k a year this
: last summer:)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Java has very little to do with why I
am where I am. I was making much more than your precious $40K before
Java came along. And my selling point is in my architectural skills,
not in any specific technology.
: [quote repeated by me here]
: : A language does make a programer.
: Assuming this to be a true statement, I no longer have to wonder why most
: people titled 'programmer' have a hard time with anything requiring actual
: thought processes.
The title programmer goes with a wide range of responsibilities. Some
do not require any thought processes, but instead just the ability to
do what you are told. Higher levels of programmer require serious
thought processes.
: : Someone who knows a language can be given
: : simple tasks to do and go do it.
: And by the time he gets it right, the boss could have done it
: himself.
But the boss is making a lot more money to get paid to do much more
complex things. Doing algorithmic tasks is simply not worth that
person's time. It would be very nice to have senior engineers writing
all your code for a paltry $40K, but that is not the way things work.
Really, John, you need to get out in the real world and see how things
work.
: Of course, M$ doesn't CARE about getting it right, as witnessed by the
: fact that companies routinely pay upwards of $150k a year to anyone
: who can keep a large Exchange installation running(no, not for conversion
: or anything else fancy; just keeping it RUNNING is worth this much when
: downtime has to be near zero:)
That has to do with lack of architectural experience at MS. It has
nothing to do with programming abilities.
: : Someone who knows a bit about
: : writing aesthetic code can, on top of that, be trusted with more
: : complex code.
: Um... no. If by complex you mean 'longer than a screenful,' then sure, but
: most peoples' idea of complex probably involves at least a minimal knowledge
: of algorithms, data structures(even just using them effectively requires
: some knowledge of their characteristics,) debugging technique, and so forth,
: none of which is implied by 'aesthetic code,' whatever that silliness means.
: (Does it mean 'code run through indent with my favorite options?' Maybe you
: mean 'code with well chosen variable names?' Frankly, 'aesthetic' just isn't
: a very precise term:)
It is not hard John. It means readable code.
Craig S Dohmen
George Reese wrote in message
<25jH1.2120$ey4.6...@ptah.visi.com>...
>all your code for a paltry $40K, but that is not the way things work.
^^^^^^
Dammit George, now I'm depressed; $40K was my starting salary last
year. :-/
--Craig
George Reese
: George Reese wrote in message
: ^^^^^^
Bah, that's a good starting salary. I am just slamming JA3 thinking
he is some sort of hot shit cause he had a job offer.
John Adelsberger
: Bah, that's a good starting salary. I am just slamming JA3 thinking
: he is some sort of hot shit cause he had a job offer.
George, the only reason you HAVE a job is because Java is trendy; granted,
you could probably pick up COBOL and do Y2K stuff for a year, but other
than riding trends, you're unmarketable in the computer field. That was
my point; I refuse to ride trends, and am actually getting an education
in the field I intend to work in. _You,_ on the other hand, are the
embodiment of the opportunist fadfreak with serious gaps in his basic
knowledge of the field.
George Reese
: : Bah, that's a good starting salary. I am just slamming JA3 thinking
: : he is some sort of hot shit cause he had a job offer.
: George, the only reason you HAVE a job is because Java is trendy; granted,
: you could probably pick up COBOL and do Y2K stuff for a year, but other
: than riding trends, you're unmarketable in the computer field. That was
: my point; I refuse to ride trends, and am actually getting an education
: in the field I intend to work in. _You,_ on the other hand, are the
: embodiment of the opportunist fadfreak with serious gaps in his basic
: knowledge of the field.
Two things:
#1 On what do you base the conclusion that, if it were not for Java, I
would be unmarketable? As I stated earlier, I was making more than
your little $40K before Java came along. My current job has very
little to do with the fact that I know Java.
#2 If one knows Java (or any other skill that is in high demand), what
exactly is wrong with using that knowledge?
Honestly, John, you sound jealous.
Jon A. Lambert
>
>In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
>
>: A language does make a programer.
>
>Well, George, there are those people who would argue that your knowledge
>that when something else becomes the hot item and Java becomes just
>another language, people like you are going to be poor in a big hurry,
>which is why I didn't drop out of my CS program to make $40k a year this
>last summer:)
IMHO, any good programmer in language X can parley that experience into
competency in language Y within a couple weeks of full immersion.
(unless of course language Y is Intercal :P) I've personally witnessed
hundreds of Cobol, Fortran, and PL/1 programmers take the plunge into C,
Pascal, C++, VB and Java. Those that coded poorly in their former language
coded just as horribly in their new language. I don't believe that to be a
coincidence.
>[quote repeated by me here]
>
>: A language does make a programer.
>
I'm not sure I understand what this means, although I've probably missed
George's supporting arguments.
>: Someone who knows a language can be given
>: simple tasks to do and go do it.
>
>And by the time he gets it right, the boss could have done it himself.
This is really funny John and very naive about how things work
out there...
>Of course, M$ doesn't CARE about getting it right, as witnessed by the
>fact that companies routinely pay upwards of $150k a year to anyone
>who can keep a large Exchange installation running(no, not for conversion
>or anything else fancy; just keeping it RUNNING is worth this much when
>downtime has to be near zero:)
I can't quite figure out how you got from that last statement to here.
No matter. Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel ;)
--
--
--/*\ Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Email:jlsy...@nospam.ix.netcom.com /*\--
--/*\ Mud Server Developer's Page <http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc> /*\--
--/*\ "Everything that deceives may be said to enchant" - Plato /*\--
Jon A. Lambert
>
>In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
>
>: he is some sort of hot shit cause he had a job offer.
>
>George, the only reason you HAVE a job is because Java is trendy; granted,
>you could probably pick up COBOL and do Y2K stuff for a year, but other
>than riding trends, you're unmarketable in the computer field. That was
>my point; I refuse to ride trends, and am actually getting an education
>in the field I intend to work in. _You,_ on the other hand, are the
>embodiment of the opportunist fadfreak with serious gaps in his basic
>knowledge of the field.
>
Damn! You have this soooo backwards. One makes the most out of surfing
on the waves of trendiness and fadism. One way to success especially in
this field is the willingness and flexibility to quickly adapt to a market
that changes yearly, sometimes even monthly. I'm not exactly sure what
your field(?) is. As to myself, I'm just a two-bit consultant who is
willing to prostitute himself for sinful wages. Sometimes the customer
wants straight C. Sometimes they want half&half like a DB2 table design
and a NCP/VTAM setup. Sometimes I have to perform VB jobs. Currently
Java fetishes are the rage. Many times they just pay me to do nothing but
talk to them and write down and organize their thoughts and feelings as
if I was some sort of digital psychiatrist. (And at comparable wages too)
Methinks I make it sound too sinful. One can still be rabid capitalist
and hold to a high standard of personal ethics and honesty.
Large gaps in knowledge? I've got some big ones. Utimately I'm a
generalist. I'm sure George has some too. Big deal. I'll flame him
when he spews. I've read his book, it's not bad. You have to be some
sort of half-wit to believe the author didn't understand the concepts
contained within and to attribute them solely to a specialization in
Java. If Java suddenly dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow I'm
certain George would still be more marketable than you today.
Greg Foley
John Adelsberger wrote:
>
> In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
>
> : Bah, that's a good starting salary. I am just slamming JA3 thinking
> : he is some sort of hot shit cause he had a job offer.
>
> George, the only reason you HAVE a job is because Java is trendy; granted,
> you could probably pick up COBOL and do Y2K stuff for a year, but other
> than riding trends, you're unmarketable in the computer field. That was
> my point; I refuse to ride trends, and am actually getting an education
> in the field I intend to work in. _You,_ on the other hand, are the
> embodiment of the opportunist fadfreak with serious gaps in his basic
> knowledge of the field.
>
John Adelsberger
: Damn! You have this soooo backwards. One makes the most out of surfing
: on the waves of trendiness and fadism. One way to success especially in
You are missing the point. Right now, because of certain REALLY big changes
in how businesses use computers, people like George, who have certain skills,
are in huge demand. Five years from now, when this labor shortage no longer
exists because CS depts have flooded the market with BS grads, anyone without
a degree is going to be screwed hard unless he has a very rare skill(I
imagine people like clawrence will be just fine, but how many people do you
know who can do what he does? Certainly not George:)
John Adelsberger
: Most code spends well over 50% of its time in the maintenance cycle which
: makes code which looks good and is easy to read a very major point when
: writing it. There are many other things you can do to code to make it
: easier to maintain, which are often small tricks and things learnt over
: time. assert() for instance (which is much harder to do in java, a definite
: failing of that language...). 'Writing Solid Code' by Microsoft press has a
: lot of good ideas in it, even if Microsoft don't follow them any more... As
: does 'Code Complete' also by Microsoft press.
: Remember to think of the people that will come after you,
: David.
Agreed. Anyone who has read the alias preprocessor you wrote for DW that
made it into the original public release of FR knows precisely what you're
talking about:) Hehe... sorry, couldn't resist.
George Reese
: : Damn! You have this soooo backwards. One makes the most out of surfing
: : on the waves of trendiness and fadism. One way to success especially in
: You are missing the point. Right now, because of certain REALLY big changes
: in how businesses use computers, people like George, who have certain skills,
: are in huge demand. Five years from now, when this labor shortage no longer
: exists because CS depts have flooded the market with BS grads, anyone without
: a degree is going to be screwed hard unless he has a very rare skill(I
: imagine people like clawrence will be just fine, but how many people do you
: know who can do what he does? Certainly not George:)
As usual, you are talking out of your ass. A CS degree does not teach
you much of anything that is important in developing business
systems--where the big money is. I find it really funny that someone
like you with no real world experience is trying to preach to the rest
of us what is needed in the real world. Your utter ignorance makes me
laugh.
Matthew R. Sheahan
> You are missing the point. Right now, because of certain REALLY big changes
> in how businesses use computers, people like George, who have certain skills,
> are in huge demand. Five years from now, when this labor shortage no longer
> exists because CS depts have flooded the market with BS grads, anyone without
> a degree is going to be screwed hard unless he has a very rare skill(I
let me join the chorus here, John. you need to be on speaking terms with
the real world before you go on about what's going to happen there. the
lack of this is illustrated when you talk about a BS degree as more valuable
than 5+ years of experience.
chiaroscuro
John Adelsberger
: : In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
: : : Nonsense. For example, I know jack about queuing theory.
: : : A language does make a programer.
: : Well, George, there are those people who would argue that your knowledge
: : of your chosen profession is... lacking in depth:)
: Not a single person who actually know and works with me. Just quacks
: like you who think $40K is a lot of money.
40k is a pittance, but for a guy with no degree who wasn't even looking, it
isn't bad. The reason I mentioned it is to point out that ANYONE can get
a job TODAY. It won't be that way a few years down the road... people who
don't have relevant degrees or irreplacable skills are going to be
_screwed._ If I were YOU, I'd be thinking about a masters program in CS:)
: Sorry to burst your bubble, but Java has very little to do with why I
: am where I am. I was making much more than your precious $40K before
: Java came along. And my selling point is in my architectural skills,
: not in any specific technology.
Any CS worth his salt has such skills, and you can pay them $35k a year in
less desperate times:)
: : Frankly, 'aesthetic' just isn't a very precise term:)
: It is not hard John. It means readable code.
So then you trust anyone who made it past his sophomore year in a CS program
for whatever you define as 'more complex tasks?' It must be a scary world
you live in; I wouldn't trust half of those people to write manuals for
bicycles:)
John Adelsberger
: A CS degree does not teach you much of anything that is important in
: developing business systems--where the big money is.
Most everyone disagrees with you, and many CS depts are developing
explicit specialties in exactly the sort of thing you do for a living
(Duke comes to mind.) These departments are going to be churning out
grads at ever increasing rates for the forseeable future; all I care
to say to anyone without such a degree is: "Good luck!" :-)
George Reese
: : In rec.games.mud.lp John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
: : : In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
: : : : Nonsense. For example, I know jack about queuing theory.
: : : : A language does make a programer.
: : : Well, George, there are those people who would argue that your knowledge
: : : of your chosen profession is... lacking in depth:)
: : Not a single person who actually know and works with me. Just quacks
: : like you who think $40K is a lot of money.
: 40k is a pittance, but for a guy with no degree who wasn't even looking, it
: isn't bad. The reason I mentioned it is to point out that ANYONE can get
: a job TODAY. It won't be that way a few years down the road... people who
: don't have relevant degrees or irreplacable skills are going to be
: _screwed._ If I were YOU, I'd be thinking about a masters program in CS:)
Yeah, anyone can get a job today. So what?
Not everyone ends up at the top of their profession. So how do you
explain my being there?
I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
: : Sorry to burst your bubble, but Java has very little to do with why I
: : am where I am. I was making much more than your precious $40K before
: : Java came along. And my selling point is in my architectural skills,
: : not in any specific technology.
: Any CS worth his salt has such skills, and you can pay them $35k a year in
: less desperate times:)
Bullshit. You clearly don't even know what those skills are.
Architectural skills are extremely rare.
: : : Frankly, 'aesthetic' just isn't a very precise term:)
: : It is not hard John. It means readable code.
: So then you trust anyone who made it past his sophomore year in a CS program
: for whatever you define as 'more complex tasks?' It must be a scary world
: you live in; I wouldn't trust half of those people to write manuals for
: bicycles:)
You may think writing code is really hard, but its not. It just takes
a particular kind of mind and exposure to the proper technologies.
Kevin Doherty
in <E3WH1.2532$ey4.8...@ptah.visi.com>(Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:11:48 GMT):
>I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
While I heartily agree that a CS degree is pretty much a waste of time,
don't you have a degree in Philosophy, George? I can kinda understand
studying just because it's an interesting topic, but as wastes of time
go, Philosophy is a fair bit more extreme than CS, imho :)
George Reese
: Thus spake George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com>
: in <E3WH1.2532$ey4.8...@ptah.visi.com>(Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:11:48 GMT):
:>I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
: While I heartily agree that a CS degree is pretty much a waste of time,
: don't you have a degree in Philosophy, George? I can kinda understand
: studying just because it's an interesting topic, but as wastes of time
: go, Philosophy is a fair bit more extreme than CS, imho :)
No degree is a waste of time. You took my quote out of context. It
was in response to JA3 telling me I should run out and get a masters
in CS. Clearly, for someone with my experience, that is a huge waste
of time. As I said above, however, no degree is a waste of time. The
pursuit of a degree from a good school is itself much more important
than the specific degree.
Having said that, philosophy is actually an excellent degree for OO
software engineering. That's not to say that you should start listing
'BA in Philosophy' in your OO job requirements. What it means is that
the fundamental questions of the two fields are essentially the same
(what is it to be X?), they both require an unusual ability at thought
abstraction, and they both depend highly on the ability think
logically. Thus, the two match up really well.
John Adelsberger
: In rec.games.mud.lp John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
: : In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
: Not everyone ends up at the top of their profession. So how do you
: explain my being there?
Actually, I don't believe you ARE there... your word is the only thing I
have to substantiate this claim, and frankly, your word is so frequently
complete and utter bullshit that even people who usually agree with you
take what you say with a grain of salt. Granted, you COULD be telling
the truth, but so often it seems that your views are very, very limited
in scope; you try to generalize the microcosm you live in to the entire
planet, and it just doesn't work. You can accuse me of this, but I have
exposure to every environment computers are used in save the military,
whereas if I had to bet, you probably have exposure to precisely one, or
at most one basic category.
: I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
Tell me about it a decade from now when you're being replaced by a 23 year
old with a year's experience and 4 years of training in exactly what you
do. Sure, he'll be a bit slow for a few months, but he'll also make half
or less what you do, he'll be younger, so his insurance will be cheaper,
and his ilk will be so common that many of them will be working in other
fields for lack of jobs.
: : Any CS worth his salt has such skills, and you can pay them $35k a year in
: : less desperate times:)
: Bullshit. You clearly don't even know what those skills are.
: Architectural skills are extremely rare.
Um, yeah. You're talking to a guy who sits around with friends on weekends
designing systems the scale of which none of us could actually code given a
lifetime without lots and lots of help. Architecture is simple, but I do
agree that it is a bitch to teach. We use it as entertainment.
: : So then you trust anyone who made it past his sophomore year in a CS program
: : for whatever you define as 'more complex tasks?' It must be a scary world
: : you live in; I wouldn't trust half of those people to write manuals for
: : bicycles:)
: You may think writing code is really hard, but its not. It just takes
: a particular kind of mind and exposure to the proper technologies.
Writing code is easy - for me. For a few people out of every hundred. On
the other hand, there is the remainder of society, most of whom quite
honestly have trouble with the notion of sequential execution. Design is,
I grant, a somewhat rarer skill; perhaps one in ten respectable programmers
has any knack for it. That said, the vast majority of people who are any
good at it didn't major in philosophy:)
John Adelsberger
: Thus spake George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com>
: in <E3WH1.2532$ey4.8...@ptah.visi.com>(Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:11:48 GMT):
: While I heartily agree that a CS degree is pretty much a waste of time,
: don't you have a degree in Philosophy, George? I can kinda understand
: studying just because it's an interesting topic, but as wastes of time
: go, Philosophy is a fair bit more extreme than CS, imho :)
Neither is a waste of time if you give a damn about what they're about.
That said, philosophy has to be the 2nd or 3rd least marketable degree
around, unless you get a doctorate in it.
George Reese
: : Thus spake George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com>
: : in <E3WH1.2532$ey4.8...@ptah.visi.com>(Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:11:48 GMT):
: : >I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
: : While I heartily agree that a CS degree is pretty much a waste of time,
: : don't you have a degree in Philosophy, George? I can kinda understand
: : studying just because it's an interesting topic, but as wastes of time
: : go, Philosophy is a fair bit more extreme than CS, imho :)
: Neither is a waste of time if you give a damn about what they're about.
: That said, philosophy has to be the 2nd or 3rd least marketable degree
: around, unless you get a doctorate in it.
Done any studies on this John?
It is amazing how full of bullshit you are. While philosophy is a
particularly bad degree if you want to be a professional philosopher
(not many of those out there other than professors of philosophy), it
is a valid field of study for many, many career paths. The most
common one is law.
George Reese
: : In rec.games.mud.lp John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
: : : In rec.games.mud.lp George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
: : Not everyone ends up at the top of their profession. So how do you
: : explain my being there?
: Actually, I don't believe you ARE there... your word is the only thing I
: have to substantiate this claim, and frankly, your word is so frequently
: complete and utter bullshit that even people who usually agree with you
: take what you say with a grain of salt.
What exactly would substantiate this claim in your mind? I imagine
you are looking for the Lord Almighty to come to you and declare it
so.
: Granted, you COULD be telling
: the truth, but so often it seems that your views are very, very limited
: in scope; you try to generalize the microcosm you live in to the entire
: planet, and it just doesn't work. You can accuse me of this, but I have
: exposure to every environment computers are used in save the military,
: whereas if I had to bet, you probably have exposure to precisely one, or
: at most one basic category.
If you have such vast experience, how come you are so clueless about
how things work in the business world?
: : I would never waste my time on a CS degree.
: Tell me about it a decade from now when you're being replaced by a 23 year
: old with a year's experience and 4 years of training in exactly what you
: do. Sure, he'll be a bit slow for a few months, but he'll also make half
: or less what you do, he'll be younger, so his insurance will be cheaper,
: and his ilk will be so common that many of them will be working in other
: fields for lack of jobs.
This would be the case only if I ceased to evolve. In 10 years, Java
will be a commodity skill. But as I have already stated time and time
again (and as you seem completely unable to comprehend), my value is
not in my knowledge of any particular tool or technology. It is in my
ability to adapt to new technologies. So, in ten years, your little
Java programmer won't hold a candle to me.
: : : Any CS worth his salt has such skills, and you can pay them $35k a year in
: : : less desperate times:)
: : Bullshit. You clearly don't even know what those skills are.
: : Architectural skills are extremely rare.
: Um, yeah. You're talking to a guy who sits around with friends on weekends
: designing systems the scale of which none of us could actually code given a
: lifetime without lots and lots of help. Architecture is simple, but I do
: agree that it is a bitch to teach. We use it as entertainment.
I am sure you believe you know what architecture is. I am fairly
certain you do not. Certainly nothing you have articulated ever
suggests that you have the faintest idea what it is.
: : : So then you trust anyone who made it past his sophomore year in a CS program
: : : for whatever you define as 'more complex tasks?' It must be a scary world
: : : you live in; I wouldn't trust half of those people to write manuals for
: : : bicycles:)
: : You may think writing code is really hard, but its not. It just takes
: : a particular kind of mind and exposure to the proper technologies.
: Writing code is easy - for me. For a few people out of every hundred. On
: the other hand, there is the remainder of society, most of whom quite
: honestly have trouble with the notion of sequential execution. Design is,
: I grant, a somewhat rarer skill; perhaps one in ten respectable programmers
: has any knack for it. That said, the vast majority of people who are any
: good at it didn't major in philosophy:)
So what?
David Bennett
>Agreed. Anyone who has read the alias preprocessor you wrote for DW that
>made it into the original public release of FR knows precisely what you're
>talking about:) Hehe... sorry, couldn't resist.
Heh :) It has been rewritten since then. I think...
Back in my younger and less aware days.
Flowing with the times,
David.
David Bennett
>I am sure you believe you know what architecture is. I am fairly
>certain you do not. Certainly nothing you have articulated ever
>suggests that you have the faintest idea what it is.
I know! I know! Its making big building that don't fall over in earth
quakes.
I think I need to go and lie down now, that was a bit strenuous.
Mopping up the mess,
David.
Jon A. Lambert
>
>In rec.games.mud.lp Jon A. Lambert <jlsy...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>: Damn! You have this soooo backwards. One makes the most out of surfing
>: on the waves of trendiness and fadism. One way to success especially in
>
>in how businesses use computers, people like George, who have certain skills,
>are in huge demand. Five years from now, when this labor shortage no longer
>exists because CS depts have flooded the market with BS grads, anyone without
>a degree is going to be screwed hard unless he has a very rare skill(I
>know who can do what he does? Certainly not George:)
>
What big changes? Let us sheep in on the scoop. For example, currently
I'm in banking <ack>. You think ATMs, cash dispensing machines, teller
terminals are going away? Should I tell my client that this internet
online banking project is a bust, since some wise college junior has
clued me into shattering events that will occur 5 years from now?
Perhaps you should clue me in as to how a current BS or Masters degree
CS graduate is better prepared to handle programming and interfacing
the aforementioned machines than a high school graduate with 4 years
of hands on experience with all this equipment? As new technology
comes online tell me who will get their hands on it first the CS grad
or the dummy working at the bank? Just how does a CS degree prepare one
to manage a network software distribution system that services ~2000
branch servers with ~20000 of these devices hangin off them? Besides,
that smart high school gradute has been taking advantage of free
corporate education and is probably working on more relevant educational
paths, an MBA or CPA. He prolly picked up a Java or OO Design or
project management class too.
And that's just banking for an example...admittedly a conservative and
slow to change industry. Or is it? One could argue that eletronic
banking and credit cards have made an enormous imprint on the social
and economic fabric of of American society. But I ramble...
The point is that the average CS graduate upon being disgorged from
University are more like a newborn baby when they enter the real world
than your average 4 year old programmer. Maybe their brains have
been wired with latest and greatest theories. Applied theory even
old theory is much more useful to an potential employer. There is
also a good chance that the University has totally miswired you. Ask
the many graduates of the early '80s who were carefully prepared to
enter the brave new world of batch Cobol, Fortran and AppleBasic...
Check out the US labor site for a more realistic assesment of the
fututre situation: <URL http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos110.htm>
As far as the specific people you mention and some you didn't. AFAIK,
JC Lawrence and G. Reese operate in completely different fields of
applied CS. N. Yospe and some other posters I've seen here operate in
other divergent fields of applied CS (engineering/science). To say
that any of these people will be useless in 5 years is akin to saying
their field will disappear. I've taken jobs from more degreed and even
more experienced consultants merely by having chance experience in a
specific industry.
Don't take this wrong, I'm not advocating anyone performing a degree
abortion. Get your damn CS degree and to get a leg up on the other
class newborns get a minor/major in an applied field of interest like
Accounting/Physics/Marketing/Business/Chemistry. Or even better,
get into an internship or co-op. Adaptability and flexiblility are
key, NOT paper theories. There's no shame adding Cobol/PL1/Fortran/
Basic to your resume. It still exists in huge quantities in the real
world.
Oh yeah, there is something to be said for having a REAL liberal arts
education in literature, economics, politics, history, and yes, even
philosophy. The communication skills of those graduating from
universities that have the popular "vocational" mindset is very dismal.
OK, I'm done gibbering...
Jon A. Lambert
>
>True... But coding standards and following coding standards do make more
>readable and more maintainable code.
>
>makes code which looks good and is easy to read a very major point when
>writing it. There are many other things you can do to code to make it
>easier to maintain, which are often small tricks and things learnt over
>time. assert() for instance (which is much harder to do in java, a definite
>failing of that language...). 'Writing Solid Code' by Microsoft press has a
>lot of good ideas in it, even if Microsoft don't follow them any more... As
>does 'Code Complete' also by Microsoft press.
>
I'd also highly recommend 'Code Complete' by Steve McConnell.
There's tons of applied wisdom in this book. Some of the information
in here, I picked up via the oral tradition, some via making the
same mistakes myself, some not at all. "Mentor in a book" is how I
would describe it.
Jon A. Lambert
>
>40k is a pittance, but for a guy with no degree who wasn't even looking, it
>isn't bad.
40K is the current national median salary for the field. Of course
the regional median and cost of living is a much more important measure.
For instance, 35K in Minneapolis is lot more money than 50K in San
Francisco.
>The reason I mentioned it is to point out that ANYONE can get
>a job TODAY. It won't be that way a few years down the road... people who
>don't have relevant degrees or irreplacable skills are going to be
>_screwed._ If I were YOU, I'd be thinking about a masters program in CS:)
The economy could go completely in the toilet, unemployment could rise
to 20% and this still would not happen. The unemployed ones will still
be the graduates. Could you enlighten us with any historical precedents
for this belief?
Matthew R. Sheahan
> Having said that, philosophy is actually an excellent degree for OO
> software engineering.
y'know, i'd never really thought about it exactly like that, but having
worked on a degree in an interdisciplinary major that included philosophy
and computer science courses, i'd have to agree. the two dovetail quite
remarkably well.
chiaroscuro
Lars Duening
> Having said that, philosophy is actually an excellent degree for OO
> software engineering.
Interestingly enough, philosophy was one of the official specializations
for CSists at my Uni in Germany.
--
Lars Duening; la...@cableinet.co.uk
George Reese
: George Reese <bo...@imaginary.com> wrote:
That does not surprise me, as it goes both ways. A CS degree is
actually excellent for philosophy of mind (assuming a background in
AI). For philosophy to apply to OO software engineerng, though, I am
assuming a metaphysics background. Philosophy of mind would also be
useful to go into AI. In fact, I think anyone majoring in PoM or AI
should be taking classes in the other.
Falchion
jlsy...@nospam.ix.netcom.com says...
> And that's just banking for an example...admittedly a conservative and
> slow to change industry. Or is it? One could argue that eletronic
> banking and credit cards have made an enormous imprint on the social
> and economic fabric of of American society. But I ramble...
Just my $.02 here.. I'm a programmer. Droppe dout of college for work.
I've been travelling the world for my company and getting paid to do it.
And my billing rate is $150 an hour. How much do you make in banking per
hour? The reason I get paid so much is because CS is in EVERYTHING.
THose ATM's you mentioned? Guess what? A programmer makes them.
Computers are in EVERYTHING these days. Cars need onboard computers
programmed. Companies. Households! You name it. So CS will always be
around. I wa lucky I got into it now. Several years from now, It'll be
hard because even with a BS or even a Masters, you need COMMERCIAL
experience to make money. I jumped into this conversation late so only
caught part of it.
Falchion
Jp Calderone
hour (I am currently a student), but as much as I love computers and love
programming, if programming is all you do then you are a technician. Plain
and simple, no matter how skilled you can be replaced by someone who took the
same courses and learned the same things. I've always been taught that unless
you can see the big picture, you are just a cog, and I agree with this
wholeheartedly. So you might not need an advanced degree these days to be
very well *paid*, but as you so aptly stated, in a few years even people with
degrees will have trouble finding programming positions. Not so for those who
were foresighted enough to take a philosophy class or two and fall outside of
the field of "technician."
In article <MPG.105cdb966...@news.earthlink.net>,
falc...@icdc.com (Falchion) wrote:
>
>Just my $.02 here.. I'm a programmer. Droppe dout of college for work.
>I've been travelling the world for my company and getting paid to do it.
>And my billing rate is $150 an hour. How much do you make in banking per
>hour? The reason I get paid so much is because CS is in EVERYTHING.
>THose ATM's you mentioned? Guess what? A programmer makes them.
>Computers are in EVERYTHING these days. Cars need onboard computers
>programmed. Companies. Households! You name it. So CS will always be
>around. I wa lucky I got into it now. Several years from now, It'll be
>hard because even with a BS or even a Masters, you need COMMERCIAL
>experience to make money. I jumped into this conversation late so only
>caught part of it.
>
>Falchion
_________________________________________________________
/ Oi! \
| It is good |
| To have a Giant's Strength |
| But it is Tyrinous |
| To use it as a Giant |
| |
| -William Shakespeare |
\_________________________________________________________/
John Ward
On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, David Bennett wrote:
> I know! I know! Its making big building that don't fall over in earth
> quakes.
No, Civil Engineering is designing large buildings that have sufficient
lateral stability to retain structural integrity in the event of sudden
ground movements.
Architects are the critters who would like the building to look
aesthetically pleasing as it plummets to earth.
> I think I need to go and lie down now, that was a bit strenuous.
Perhaps a discussion of the vitality point loss involved in responding to
off topic threads would be in order?
<followups set :>
--
jw.
ne...@derwent.co.uk
>In article <6sqhc6$5...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>jlsy...@nospam.ix.netcom.com says...
>
>> And that's just banking for an example...admittedly a conservative and
>> slow to change industry. Or is it? One could argue that eletronic
>> banking and credit cards have made an enormous imprint on the social
>> and economic fabric of of American society. But I ramble...
>
>Computers are in EVERYTHING these days. Cars need onboard computers
>programmed. Companies. Households! You name it. So CS will always be
>around.
I bet thats what the luddites thought about weaving shortly before they
were replaced by mechanical looms which put them out of work.
Computers may be around for a while but programming jobs might not be. All it
needs is for someone to create an AI system smart enough to do any job by just
being told in english what to do. All that will be required then is enough
people to maintain and upgrade these types of AI systems. Ok , I'm looking
50 years into the future but what the hell...
NJR
Scott Goehring
>You are missing the point. Right now, because of certain REALLY big
>changes in how businesses use computers, people like George, who have
>certain skills, are in huge demand. Five years from now, when this
>labor shortage no longer exists because CS depts have flooded the
>market with BS grads, anyone without a degree is going to be screwed
>hard unless he has a very rare skill
Actually, the market won't be soon flooded with recent CS BS grads;
recently the number of CS undergrads has been steady or slowly
declining, not advancing. IMO, the main reason for the shortage is
not the availability of potential programmers, but the willingness of
employers to pay programmers what they want to be paid. (This is also
why Silicon Valley wants to import programmers; imports are willing to
work for a lot less.)
--
Get the most from your GIMP -- http://wilberworks.com/
"Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the
graveyard." W. Va. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)
Scott Goehring
Falchion <falc...@icdc.com> wrote:
>The reason I get paid so much is because CS is in EVERYTHING. THose
>ATM's you mentioned? Guess what? A programmer makes them.
>Computers are in EVERYTHING these days. Cars need onboard computers
>programmed. Companies. Households! You name it.
That's programming. Not computer science. There's a subtle
difference that most people miss.
The only field that can honestly say that it invades every area of
life whatsoever is law.
Scott Goehring
Indiana University School of Law (Class of 2001)
KME
Scott Goehring wrote in message
>The only field that can honestly say that it invades every area of
>life whatsoever is law.
>
>Scott Goehring
>Indiana University School of Law (Class of 2001)
I see your professors have instilled that endearing overblown sense of
importance to you in just a few weeks, very impressive. (You'll want to
remember what it felt like not to believe that if you wish to keep your old
friends -- after a year you'll no longer tolerate your classmates.) I'd say
philosopy, literature, math, logic, psychology, sociology, economics,
theology etc. etc. have as good, if not better, claims on universality. Get
a full semester of law under your belt and see if you are still comfortable
using honetsy and law in the same sentence. :)
KME
University of Houston School of Law(Class of 1999)
Erin Mulder
money. Invest it well and you'll have plenty of time to sit back and enjoy the
philosophical side of life as something other than a well-paid cog.
Jp Calderone wrote:
> IMNSHO, there is more to life than making money. Sure, I would love $150 an
> hour (I am currently a student), but as much as I love computers and love
> programming, if programming is all you do then you are a technician. Plain
> and simple, no matter how skilled you can be replaced by someone who took the
> same courses and learned the same things. I've always been taught that unless
> you can see the big picture, you are just a cog, and I agree with this
> wholeheartedly. So you might not need an advanced degree these days to be
> very well *paid*, but as you so aptly stated, in a few years even people with
> degrees will have trouble finding programming positions. Not so for those who
> were foresighted enough to take a philosophy class or two and fall outside of
> the field of "technician."
>
> In article <MPG.105cdb966...@news.earthlink.net>,
> falc...@icdc.com (Falchion) wrote:
> >
> >Just my $.02 here.. I'm a programmer. Droppe dout of college for work.
> >I've been travelling the world for my company and getting paid to do it.
> >And my billing rate is $150 an hour. How much do you make in banking per
> >hour? The reason I get paid so much is because CS is in EVERYTHING.
> >THose ATM's you mentioned? Guess what? A programmer makes them.
> >Computers are in EVERYTHING these days. Cars need onboard computers
> >programmed. Companies. Households! You name it. So CS will always be
John Adelsberger
: let me join the chorus here, John. you need to be on speaking terms with
: the real world before you go on about what's going to happen there. the
: lack of this is illustrated when you talk about a BS degree as more valuable
: than 5+ years of experience.
It's a nice chorus, but what I see is people being fired, laid off, offered
big 'retirement bonuses,' and so forth - because they don't have degrees.
24 year olds are being offered ANYTHING THEY WANT because they have degrees
and maybe 6 months experience and can do the job, and they're replacing
people who are just as well suited - but lack degrees and might be 5 or
10 years older. It'd be NICE to know that companies behaved sanely in this
matter and kept the people who did good jobs, but I'm watching; believe it
or not, I don't live in a box, and well, what I see is what I'm saying.