Text vs Visual - Are UO, EQ, and DAoC killing text-based muds?
Annu
number of players on muds decline and am wondering why. As other
games, including MMORGPs like Everquest and Ultima Online, have come
along the MUD world seems to have fallen somewhat out of favor.
Though one will see numerous new adds on MudConnector, you have to
wonder if people are really still playing MUDs anymore? Are the
number of players still increasing or are old players simply
mud-jumping? Has the text-based MUD filled with nicely written areas
seen the end of days? Are people really too lazy to use their
imagination and would rather settle for pretty pictures? Tell me,
friends, will all soon be a memory? What do you all think?
Had I but time--as this fell sergeant, Death,
Is strict in his arrest--O, I could tell you--
But let it be.
Annu Swansong
phoenixrising.genesismuds.com:3501
ps... we do still have one thing in our favor, most MUDs are free :)
Jade
Annu <An...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:815cb783.02090...@posting.google.com...
I run into teenagers a lot on the text based MUDs, which leads me to believe
that it's not just the old MUDders that are around anymore.
Not sure what else I can contribute at the moment, kind of busy.
Jade
Mikko Putkonen
> As a veteran in the mudding world (about 10 years) I have seen the
> number of players on muds decline and am wondering why. As other
> games, including MMORGPs like Everquest and Ultima Online, have come
> along the MUD world seems to have fallen somewhat out of favor.
> Though one will see numerous new adds on MudConnector, you have to
> wonder if people are really still playing MUDs anymore? Are the
> number of players still increasing or are old players simply
> mud-jumping?
Well, I don't know about increasing numbers, but definitely there
still is a rather large base of people playing traditional MUDs,
methinks. If only the world had *slightly* less MUDs, then maybe
most of them could even have a few players online.
> Has the text-based MUD filled with nicely written areas
> seen the end of days? Are people really too lazy to use their
> imagination and would rather settle for pretty pictures? Tell me,
> friends, will all soon be a memory? What do you all think?
In the long run, a majority of the current MUDs are to disappear,
I suppose, but some of the better ones will certainly survive, and
even manage to maintain decent player bases.
I myself haven't tried any of these newer graphical games, MMORPGS,
MMO*s, or whatever the current term is, and for some reason I don't
even feel any particular desire to do so. But then again, I'm just
an oddie who quit playing those 'normal' PC games years ago as well.
> Had I but time--as this fell sergeant, Death,
> Is strict in his arrest--O, I could tell you--
> But let it be.
> Annu Swansong
> phoenixrising.genesismuds.com:3501
> ps... we do still have one thing in our favor, most MUDs are free :)
Indeed. Long live to MUDs.
-Methem (AnotherDikuMud & Alhazi Invasion)
mipu...@paju.oulu.fi
Timothy Timbrook
> As a veteran in the mudding world (about 10 years) I have seen the
> number of players on muds decline and am wondering why. As other
> games, including MMORGPs like Everquest and Ultima Online, have come
> along the MUD world seems to have fallen somewhat out of favor.
> Though one will see numerous new adds on MudConnector, you have to
> wonder if people are really still playing MUDs anymore? Are the
> number of players still increasing or are old players simply
> mud-jumping? Has the text-based MUD filled with nicely written areas
> seen the end of days? Are people really too lazy to use their
> imagination and would rather settle for pretty pictures? Tell me,
> friends, will all soon be a memory? What do you all think?
MudConnector shows like 1800+ muds... You've been mudding 10yrs? How
many were there 10yrs ago? not even 180, I'd guess. I wonder when
it'll peak out. I've long thought there are too many muds to choose
from and too few worth playing. Ironic, eh?
I see the average age of players lowering... I run a mud where some
kiddies 10-12 play sometimes. The majority of the playerbase is under
21. Actually, I wish the average age of mudders was alot higher, like
18+. Maybe the average maturity would be higher then. ;)
As long as the majority of muds are free, I doubt muds will ever die.
Drifter
Richard Woolcock
news:d7702328.0209...@posting.google.com...
> An...@comcast.net (Annu) wrote in message
news:<815cb783.02090...@posting.google.com>...
> > As a veteran in the mudding world (about 10 years) I have seen the
> > number of players on muds decline and am wondering why. As other
> > games, including MMORGPs like Everquest and Ultima Online, have
> > come along the MUD world seems to have fallen somewhat out of
> > favor. Though one will see numerous new adds on MudConnector, you
> > have to wonder if people are really still playing MUDs anymore?
> > Are the number of players still increasing or are old players
> > simply mud-jumping? Has the text-based MUD filled with nicely
> > written areas seen the end of days? Are people really too lazy
> > to use their imagination and would rather settle for pretty
> > pictures? Tell me, friends, will all soon be a memory? What do
> > you all think?
>
> MudConnector shows like 1800+ muds... You've been mudding 10yrs?
> How many were there 10yrs ago? not even 180, I'd guess.
All of the following quotes come from the google usenet archives,
except for the Mudcompanion one (I couldn't find an accurate number
of muds for 2001 in the google archives):
"With all this [technology] becoming available in the next 2 years I
think real interactive enviroments will be possible. Text only muds
will be swept away by graphical enviroments, many of which will have
first person perspectives I think".
-- Curtis Shenton, 16th May 1995.
"If you are looking for a new mud to play The Connector currently
offers about 181 listings".
-- Andrew Cowan (Icculus), 24th July 1995.
"I am sure that all of you felow MUDers out there have seen the "new"
breed of MUDs. You know, "Ultima on-line", "The Realm", "Meridian 59",
etc. Games like this are going to put an end to our old-fashined text
based MUDs and it will be a sad day".
-- Matt, 21st October 1996.
"At the present time the Mud Connector has over 580 listings of old
and new muds available on the net".
-- Andrew Cowan (Icculus), 21st October 1996.
"Text is dead".
-- T. D. Pazuzu, 9th October 1997.
"Try searching the Mud Connector (available via www at
http://www.mudconnect.com/ ), it is fully searching and you can
specify many types of "features" you want/don't want in your search.
It will give you tons of addresses, and there are currently over 900
muds of just about every variety listed there".
-- Bobby Bailey, 26th October 1997.
"Why have text adventures (text games) almost completely died?"
-- John Giors, 21 October 1998.
"Looking for a new mud to try? Our database contains over 1250
comprehensive listings"
-- Andrew Cowan (Icculus), 29th October 1998.
"With the development of the online gaming community into one which
can provide fullspeed graphics and sound, head to head and strategic
action, and all the socialization of a text mud; I see the Mud's of
the future as a relatively dead thing".
-- Craig T. Dalrymple, 9th April 1999.
"Looking for a new mud to try? Our database contains over 1300
comprehensive listings"
-- Andrew Cowan (Icculus), 13th April 1999.
"I don't think MU* will ever die. It'll just remain the province of
those who've been into text-based games since they first started
appearing".
-- Lyrker, 7th November 2000.
"According to The Mud Connector, there are 1675 muds listed".
-- KaVir, 9th August 2000.
"I think we'll be seeing less text-based MUDS and more things like
everquest and web-based games. things like asp and .net are making it
easier to write web apps by the day".
-- Scott Lloyd, 4th May 2001.
"Of the 1776 muds listed today on The Mud Connector..."
-- "Coding style" article, December 2001 issue of The Mud Companion.
For the archives, I'd just like to mention that as of 8th September
(when TMC was last updated) there were 1805 Mud Listings.
And I'd just like to save my favourite for last (make sure you check
the date of the quote!):
"I don't think there is much interest in adventure games anymore.
Everyone wants graphical interfaces without text input...basically
TEXT ADVENTURES ARE DEAD".
-- Colin Adams, 1st October 1990.
Suffice to say, every year more and more people claim that muds are
dying out - and yet every year the number of muds (and players)
grows. True, many of the muds are fly-by-nighters (although when
they vanish they are quickly replaced by another mud) - but those
muds which hang around tend to attract a permanent playerbase, and
the playerbases today are larger than they've ever been.
"Although its really a lame hack n' slash mud, the biggest I've ever
seen is batmud, which has an imposed limit of 150 players at once
on.. and there are often 150 plus people waiting to get on during
peak hours".
-- Matthew A. Mihaly, 14 June 1995.
"There not THAT bad... and not nobody plays them. I got on Realms of
Despair (www.game.org) just to check and just now they have 410
players. And that's just one. Viva la MUD!!!"
-- SkyPhydeaux, 22 July 2001.
> I wonder when it'll peak out.
The growth in terms of number of muds is starting to slow down a bit,
but I don't think that indicates that text-based mudding is dying out.
> I see the average age of players lowering... I run a mud where some
> kiddies 10-12 play sometimes. The majority of the playerbase is
> under 21. Actually, I wish the average age of mudders was alot
> higher, like 18+. Maybe the average maturity would be higher then.
> ;)
I've seen the same, and I also agree with you. The average age of
players is lowering, but there are also a lot of "older" players
getting into the scene - for example, parents who stay home to look
after their kids, who have lots of time on their hands (but can't
really spend that time outside of their house).
> As long as the majority of muds are free, I doubt muds will ever
> die.
I don't think that would make any difference either, to be honest.
--
KaVir.
Andrew Cowan
I think the rapid increase in TMC-listed muds dating back from 1995 can be
attributed to the site's _catching up_ with what was already out there, for
the most part. TMC has teetered between 1700 and 1800 listings for about 2
years or so now, new muds start up and many of them close down quickly
after (mud admins don't get the quick influx of a large player base and
give up). We list about 1800 right now, but in a week or so when I remove
defunct listings we'll be back down to 1700 again...
I dont think this is an indication that text-based muds are dead by any
means, the website traffic has been steadily going up every year since it
was started. I still get emails from people every other week with comments
like 'Wow, I had no idea what a mud was or that there were so many out
there!'
Last time I checked Mudlinks before their website was replaced by the
Apache default installation message (believe they had a hard drive crash)
they had 3000+ muds listed. I suspect thats a much closer approximation
than what TMC lists.
-Icculus (ad...@mudconnect.com)
Annu
Hey guys,
Thanks for the feedback! Some of what you've said made me wonder if
the world of gaming, on a whole, has just hit a rapid increase where I
was just assuming that all those folks I met on EQ were just MUD
players strayed from the herd. Of course, it is obvious, that the
world of the pc game is much grander now than back in the PacMan days,
so perhaps we will survive (and as long as people are cheap, how can
we but? :) How many muds were there ten years ago? Well, your 100+
guess was right, I simply wasn't looking around back then. Thanks for
restoring my faith. I do think, however, that when virtual reality
becomes a part of life we will prolly be in the trash, but that's just
my two cents :) Indeed, long live text!
Annu Swansong
phoenixrising.genesismuds.com:3501
H. McDaniel
> I think the rapid increase in TMC-listed muds dating back from 1995 can be
> attributed to the site's _catching up_ with what was already out there,
Probably but when I got into mudding (1991) everybody else that I knew
who was into it was either in college (99%) or high school and didn't have
many hosting options outside of convincing some school admin to approve of
their game being run. It was hard to get that approval too so at least at
my u this would've limited the number of games. Nowadays any student
can get a permanent network connection in their dorm room and setup
an 'almost plung n play' unix flavor box to host their game. And it was bit
more difficult for the average Joe to setup a nix box in the early 90s. Not
rocket science but definitely not Red Hat turnkey.
-McDaniel
KaVir
>
[snip]
> Hey guys,
>
> Thanks for the feedback! Some of what you've said made me wonder if
> the world of gaming, on a whole, has just hit a rapid increase where
> I was just assuming that all those folks I met on EQ were just MUD
> players strayed from the herd.
The majority of MMORPG players have never even heard of text-based
muds, having instead moved over from single-player graphical RPGs.
Of course there are also a number of mudders who move across to the
likes of EverQuest, Ultima Online, etc - but frequently they get
bored of what is essentially a fairly mediocre mud with lots of
eye-candy, and come back. When that happens, they often bring some
friends with them, introducing more people to mudding. All in all
I'd guess that text-based muds probably receive more players from
the MMORPGs than they lose, based on what I've heard from other mud
owners.
> Of course, it is obvious, that the world of the pc game is much
> grander now than back in the PacMan days, so perhaps we will
> survive (and as long as people are cheap, how can we but? :)
I'm not sure what "cheap" has to do with it. Some text-based games
cost more to play than MMORPGs, yet they continue to thrive.
> How many muds were there ten years ago? Well, your 100+ guess was
> right, I simply wasn't looking around back then. Thanks for
> restoring my faith. I do think, however, that when virtual reality
> becomes a part of life we will prolly be in the trash, but that's
> just my two cents :)
I don't. I enjoy playing graphical multiplayer games like Warcraft3,
Counterstrike, Diablo2, etc - but I also like playing text-based muds.
I enjoy both, for different reasons.
Equally I enjoy watching movies - but I also like reading books. I
enjoy both, for different reasons.
Of course I have very specific tastes, and those tastes have refined
somewhat over the years. The majority of text-based muds are of very
poor quality, having been written by unskilled amateurs, and would not
appeal to me - any more than a novel or movie which was created by
someone of comparible ability. Unfortunately because such muds are
so prolific, many people see them and assume that that is as far as
mud developed has come. It isn't - there are some very impressive
muds out there, and the next generation of text-based muds holds much
promise indeed.
KaVir.
Richard Krush
I'm a bit late with this reply, but hopefully somebody will still read
it.
I am quite new to the MUD world (was first introduced to it in 1998) and
haven't really played in any MUDs since the beginning of 1999 simply
because I can't find a MUD that is complex enough for my taste. Despite
these facts, I would still like to express what I think, but be warned
that I might be completely off-track here.
As others pointed out, the number of MUDs increases every year, but I
agree with Mr. McDaniel that the reason for this is the steady increase
in bandwidth and technology available to average people. The problem with
this, in my opinion, is that many of these new MUD admins are just people
who played a bit and decided to try to host a MUD. From this we get
hundreds DIKU clones that differ from one another only by the title and
the names of the races. Again, in my opinion, such increase in the number
of crapy MUDs discourage new players, since often one has to check out
dozens of such MUDs before finding an original MUD that is interesting to
play.
I also agree with KaVir about the majority of MMORPG players today are
teenagers that come from the background of 3D single-player games and
think that anything that makes them employ their reading skills is
outdated and nearing the end of its days. Of course there are some who
are not like that and I think those are the ones who make up the majority
of the MUD population these days. These people, either old or young, will
stay with the text-based MUDs simply because the technology is still far
away from being able to offer a graphical MMORPG that will come even
close to the complexity of the old text MUDs. Take for example the
"emote" command found in many MUDs, to implement something as general in
a graphical MMORPG, nothing short of the true AI would be necessary. Same
applies to the character description, it is simply not possible now to
have a graphical engine that can be made to create unique scars, make a
person limp, or even show the eye color in as vivid colors as a sentence
or two of text can.
To give another example, I am currently busy writing my own MUD from
scratch that I hope will be able to fulfill all my dreams. I have spend a
lot of time thinking about graphical vs. text interface and have settled
on text not because graphical MUD would be hard to write, but simply
because there is no way a graphical MUD will be able to allow all the
complexity that I want. I will never be content with looking at one of
hundreds of imperfectly rendered faces that looks just like all the rest
when I can read a paragraph of text and clearly see in my mind an
individual with unique physical features, unique and interesting
character, and an array of habits that would allow me to recognize him or
her among thousands of other players.
To sum this up, it is my strong belief that text MUDs will not die until
either we invent a device that will let us more realisticly experience a
virtual world or when our society is consumed by the mindless mob that
despises anything that makes it think.
Regards,
Richard
--
Richard Krushelnitskiy "I know not with what weapons World War III will
rkrush (at) gmx.net be fought, but World War IV will be fought with
http://rkrush.cjb.net sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein
Pier Donini
I may as well add my input...
It is true that new gamers look, at first, to textual games as if they come
from some kind of paleolitcal age... You have to convince them of the 'depth'
such games that are hardly matched by graphical ones.
For instance, it is trivial in MUDs to create mazes (room.setExit(dir, room)),
while in a warcraft-like isometric display you cannot do this. Of course,
it's not because it is possible to use a feature that it necessarily adds
depth to the game. However, as you don't have to consider the 'layout', the
coders can focus on the internal mechanisms of the game. Some old paper and
pen RPGs were completely unplayable (anyone remembers 'Chivalery and
Sorcery'?) because of their complexity, but in MUDs you can design whatever
complex system you like and have it smoothly work behind the scenes...
Another important point is the textual aspect of game. A while back I wrote
the following ad for MUME (http://mume.pvv.org/mume.php):
<<
A text game? In the XXIst century?
Yes, indeed.
As long there will be books to read there will be a place for text-based
games. MUME is based upon Tolkien's writings and offers a richness of world
detail and game play to players who put an emphasis on imagination to act in
a role playing game, without the need to rely on flashy graphics...
Do not misunderstand us, we do play graphical games from time to time, but
never for long. MUME, on the other hand, is an everlasting and ever changing
experience.
>>
Btw, contrarily to KaVir, I do think that the non-commercial aspect of MUDs
makes a difference. I would reluctantly try a new gaming environment that
is less than sexy if I had to pay 1 euro for it. IMHO it's because most MUDs
are free that new players get hooked by them and are able to appreciate
the details of their worlds and mechanisms...
Last, I don't know for the other MUDs, but even if it is true that MUME's
population grows over all (we average at 115 players online these days, while
it we had 60 in '98, 70 in '99, 90 in '00, and 100 in '01), I doubt it
reflects the rate of people beeing connected to the internet and certainly
does not match the population increase of graphical MUDs.
So what? I guess we have an ecological niche for textual MUDs that will
probably last for a good while...
P.
--
Pier Donini (Manwe @ MUME) http://mume.pvv.org/
MUME VIII - Multi Users in Middle Earth telnet://mume.pvv.org
DJ
was this sort of competition between the old fashioned model train
enthusiasts and today's modern RC car enthusiasists and how the model train
guys were dying out.
I think MUDs will go the way of the model train eventually. Die hard fans
and those feeling nostalgic will always keep a certain number of them going,
just like there will always be a few guys in bib overalls and those funny
caps building little towns for their trains.
Annu <An...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:815cb783.02091...@posting.google.com...
Alan Schwartz
>I saw a children's cartoon the other day, part of the plot was that there
>was this sort of competition between the old fashioned model train
>enthusiasts and today's modern RC car enthusiasists and how the model train
>guys were dying out.
>
>I think MUDs will go the way of the model train eventually. Die hard fans
>and those feeling nostalgic will always keep a certain number of them going,
>just like there will always be a few guys in bib overalls and those funny
>caps building little towns for their trains.
Ok by me. I think I saw a similar program about books and TV, too...
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Paul@DuneMUSH, and Javelin elsewhere | PennMUSH Server Maintainer
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Myles L Skinner
Alan Schwartz <ala...@tala.mede.uic.edu> wrote:
>
> Ok by me. I think I saw a similar program about books and TV, too...
What are "books and TV"?
ms
--
Covenant MUD: "Under Development for Fewer than One Hundred Years!"
Crimefighter
news:OoPy9.23308$46.12669@fe01...
> I saw a children's cartoon the other day, part of the plot was that there
> was this sort of competition between the old fashioned model train
> enthusiasts and today's modern RC car enthusiasists and how the model
train
> guys were dying out.
I don't think it will die out. I've been in a basement turned into a
trainyard of sorts and thought it was a neat toy to have trains running
around. Every so often there's some convention.
> I think MUDs will go the way of the model train eventually. Die hard fans
> and those feeling nostalgic will always keep a certain number of them
going,
> just like there will always be a few guys in bib overalls and those funny
> caps building little towns for their trains.
That might happen if games like Everquest became free for all instead of pay
per play, but that isn't gonna happen anytime soon.
--
Crimefighter -- smlucas-<([@])>-flashmail.com
Co-Creator, Promised Land MUD -- http://promisedland.betterbox.net
The COMPLETE Abermud List -- http://abermud.tripod.com