[40K] [fluff]Space Marine missing
Ecke
"missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something like
"All records deleted" in two occasions. I would guess that one of these
would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing legions?
And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
--
Ecke
Newsgroup FAQ @ http://www.rgmw.org
Due to technology humankind produced weapons of mass destruction. Without
technology it would just take a bit longer.
Qrab
"Ecke" <White...@gmx.de> wrote:
> While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
> "missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
> their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something like
> "All records deleted" in two occasions. I would guess that one of these
> would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
> But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing legions?
> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
There's been a lot of speculation over this, but as far as I know, GW
has never published (or even hinted at) anything official.
--
Be seeing you-
Qrab
Blue Raja
news:cfiedk$t2s$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
> While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
> "missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
> their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something
like
> "All records deleted" in two occasions.
Yep. They've been around (or rather haven't) at least since 2nd Edition.
> I would guess that one of these
> would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
IIRC the Grey Knights were of the Third Founding and not counted in there.
I don't recall ever reading anything about the Emperor leading them.
> But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing
legions?
There was, but all records were deleted ;o)
> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
I can't remember all of them off-hand, although you should be able to find
this on Google - I seem to remember being discussed a few times.
--
The Blue Raja
"Besides, true evil never shows itself by trying to legitimizing itself.
Take 'Raja, for example. He's an EVIL little bastard and doesn't have to
announce it to the world. He decimates the millions with polite,
conversation and leaves a wake of devastation in his path." - Butch
RGMW FAQ - By order of Yoda Bob
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Jann
"Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:2o3ub6F...@uni-berlin.de...
> "Ecke" <White...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:cfiedk$t2s$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
> > While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
> > "missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
> > their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something
> like
> > "All records deleted" in two occasions.
>
> Yep. They've been around (or rather haven't) at least since 2nd Edition.
>
> > I would guess that one of these
> > would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey
Knights.
>
> IIRC the Grey Knights were of the Third Founding and not counted in there.
> I don't recall ever reading anything about the Emperor leading them.
>
You do recal correct if I recal correct. They where the only new chapter
created in that founding as well.
>
> --
>
> The Blue Raja
> "Besides, true evil never shows itself by trying to legitimizing itself.
> Take 'Raja, for example. He's an EVIL little bastard and doesn't have to
> announce it to the world. He decimates the millions with polite,
> conversation and leaves a wake of devastation in his path." - Butch
> RGMW FAQ - By order of Yoda Bob
> http://www.rgmw.org
>
Jann
George Worroll
> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
Roboute Guillaman, Ultramarines- Considered dead, but some Ultramarines
swear he is healing in the stasis field that preserves his corpse.
Leman Russ, Space Wolves- Missing in the Eye of Terror since the Horus
Heresy
Horus, Black Legion/Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves- Killed in duel with the
Emperor
Vulkan, Salamanders- Dissapeared
Corax, Raven Guard- Dissapeared
Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fists- Died in a suicide run against an enemy ship
in the first Black Crusade.
Lorgar, Word Bearers- Became a Daemon Prince
Fulgrim, Emperors Children- Either died in a war inside the Eye or
retired as a Daemon Prince
Perturabo, Iron Warriors- Daemon Prince
Jaghati Khan, White Scars- Lost in the warp in pursuit of Dark Eldar
Konrad Kurze, Night Lords- Killed by a Callidus Assasin shortly after
the Heresy
Sanguinus, Blood Angels- Killed by Horus during the Heresy.
Mortarion, Death Guard- Daemon Prince
Magnus the Red- Daemon Prince
As for the two legions whose records are expunged, the best theory I
have seen is they were the two legions that assaulted Ichar IV along
with the Salamanders during the opening of the Horus Heresy and were
wiped out completely, their records being expunged due to the shame of
such utter defeat.
George Worroll
> Horus, Black Legion/Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves- Killed in duel with the
> Emperor
> Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fists- Died in a suicide run against an enemy ship
> in the first Black Crusade.
> Konrad Kurze, Night Lords- Killed by a Callidus Assasin shortly after
> the Heresy
> Sanguinus, Blood Angels- Killed by Horus during the Heresy.
Interesting to note that only two loyal Primarchs are confirmed
completely dead. Two Chaos Primarchs are also confirmed completely
dead. I suspect the MIA Imerials will probably come back for the final
battle and take on their Chaos counterparts if GW ever cancels 40k
completely(which likely will only happen if they are on the edge of
going out of business).
George Worroll
> Ecke wrote:
>
>> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went
>> missing
>> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
>
>
Forgot Lion El'Johnson. Primarch of the Dark Angels, he was mortally
wounded in a fight with Luther shortly after the Heresy, and before his
death was taken by the Watchers in the Dark to parts unknown. He is
missing.
George Worroll
> Ecke wrote:
>
>> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went
>> missing
>> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
>
>
Last correction, I swear!
Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha Legion, was killed by Roboute Guillaman
during the Heresy.
And this annihilates whatever point I was trying to make about the
number of absolute confirmed dead, unless Guillaman is counted as
confirmed dead despite the beliefs of some of the Ultramarines.
P Bowles
>While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
>"missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
>their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something like
>"All records deleted" in two occasions. I would guess that one of these
>would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
There was no legion led by the Emperor - there were 20 Primarchs and 20 rather
than 21 First Founding Legions. The Grey Knights are secret, but a recognised
Founding (in fact a Founding all by themselves - the Third, I believe, Chapter
number 666), being considerably later than the FF Legions. Nor are they the
Fire Hawks (aka Legion of the Damned), a Second Founding Chapter. In fact, we
can be pretty sure that the two missing Legions aren't among those we've seen
mentioned anywhere. The 'real life' explanation is that GW ran out of ideas for
suitable names after 18 and decided to add a bit of mystery (although this
explanation makes no sense as Second Founding Chapters such as the Crimson
Fists were mentioned in the first 40k rulebook, so why couldn't a couple of
these names have been used?)
>But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing legions?
>And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
>after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
Ferrus Manus: Presumed killed on Istvaan V during the Horus Heresy. No body was
recovered, though it is said to have been taken to Mars (although not by the
Iron Hands, who believe their Primarch survived but disappeared).
Sanguinus: Killed by Horus in the final assault on Horus' Battlebarge.
Horus: Killed by the Emperor aboard his Battlebarge
Lion'El Jonson: Killed by Luther on Caliban at the end of the Horus Heresy.
Rogal Dorn: Killed in a boarding action against the Iron Warriors after the
Heresy.
Roboute Guilliman: Killed in an attack on the Alpha Legion. Body kept in stasis
on Ultramar, where it is said to be slowly healing.
Konrad Curze (Night Haunter): Killed by an assassin of the Callidus temple,
apparently voluntarily.
Vulkan: Went missing.
Jaghatai Khan: Went missing pursuing Dark Eldar pirates into the webway.
Leman Russ: Went missing pursuing the Traitor Legions into the Eye of Terror.
Corax: Went missing heading towards the Eye of Terror, inevitably with the word
"Nevermore".
Mortarion: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a Daemon
World. Active to this day, leading the major part of the Death Guard Legion.
Fulgrim: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a Daemon
World. Currently active.
Angron: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a Daemon
World. Currently active.
Magnus the Red: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a
Daemon World. Currently active as the head of the Thousand Sons.
Pertuarbo: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a Daemon
World. Thought to be still active.
Alpharius: Unknown. Thought to be still co-ordinating Alpha Legion attacks from
the Eye of Terror.
Lorgar: Became a Daemon Prince; resides in the Eye of Terror ruling a Daemon
World. Thought to be still active.
Philip Bowles
Ecke
"George Worroll" <gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:g66Tc.24069$js3.9...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Thank You.
I wondered because I found it strange that such elevated human could simply
vanish.
I assume the Emporer was once a primach, more or less like the other. No
reference was made to his legion, so I assumed it must be one of the missing
ones. And the fluff in the demonhunter codex says the Grey Knights' genetic
improvements came directly from the emporer. They were founded in the second
round. So the forebearers would be one of the missing legions.
The theory about the utter defeat sounds reasonalbe, too.
Well, I will think about it for a while. Perhaps I will find the solution
somewhere deep inside the archieves of terry.
Myrmidon
Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
> "missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
> their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something like
> "All records deleted" in two occasions. I would guess that one of these
> would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
> But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing legions?
> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
>
This is a list similar to George Worrel's list - just a bit more tounge
in cheek. Originally posted by Cheezhankrn.
From: "CheezHankrn"
Blood Angels, Sanguinius died at the Battle for Terra.
Luna Wolves, Sons of Horus, Black Legion: Horus: ditto, albeit cloned a
few times.
Space Wolves: Leman Russ wondered off to find a decent beer.
Dark Angels, Lion'el Johnson is hidden in the Rock.
UltraMarines: Roboute Guilliman is in stasis.
Death Guard, Mortarion: Daemon Prince of Nurgle.
World Eaters, Angron: Daemon Prince of Khorne.
Sons of the Emporer. (Emporer's Children) Fulgrim: Daemon Prince of
Slaanesh
1k Sons. Magnus the Red: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Night Lords. Night Haunter: Let himself be assassinated by a Callidus.
White Scars. Jaghatai Khan: Lost in the warp while hunting Dark Eldar
Imperial Fists. Rogal Dorn: Killed assaulting the Sword of Sacrilege.
Iron Warriors Peturabo: Daemon Prince.
Salamanders Vulkan: Disappeared.
Word Bearers, Lorgan : Dead. Chaos religious freaks
Raven Guard. Corax: Dead?
Alpha Legion. Alpharius: Killed by Guilliman. rumored to command Alpha
Legion from the Eye.
Iron Hands, Ferrus Manus : Killed on Istvaan V.
Myrmidon
--
On an unrelated note, I just dropped a lit cigarette into a
can of smoked almonds. Now my cigarette is delightfully
hickory-ish, and the almonds give me a nice buzz.
True story.
- Bill
RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org
Or...
http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Robert Williams
>
> Lion'El Jonson: Killed by Luther on Caliban at the end of the Horus
Heresy.
Not killed. He was severely blasted by a psychic attack from Luther, and
was taken off by the Watchers in The Dark. The Dark Angels beleive he
disappeared, but he is infact hidden in a secluded chamber of the Tower of
Angels (The Rock).
Rob
George Worroll
> I wondered because I found it strange that such elevated human could simply
> vanish.
>
> I assume the Emporer was once a primach, more or less like the other. No
> reference was made to his legion, so I assumed it must be one of the missing
> ones. And the fluff in the demonhunter codex says the Grey Knights' genetic
> improvements came directly from the emporer. They were founded in the second
> round. So the forebearers would be one of the missing legions.
> The theory about the utter defeat sounds reasonalbe, too.
> Well, I will think about it for a while. Perhaps I will find the solution
> somewhere deep inside the archieves of terry.
The Emperor was born the way he was. The old fluff says that a bunch of
shamans in times long before our own saw that the cycle of rebirth was
coming to an end due presumably to the rise of Chaos in the Warp. So
they came together to sacrifice themselves for a final rebirth, which
was the Emperor who held the collective power of all shamans in Earths
history. This child was to save humanity. The Emperor spent several
millenia observing(he is presumably immune to aging, possibly disease
and very resistant to injury), and when the Age of Strife came and the
original Human interstellar empire fell down, and Earth broke down into
a bunch of feuding warlords, the Emperor made his move. He became one
of these feuding warlords, eventually uniting all of Earth. The
Primarch project was a genetic engineering project to create super
warriors that became the Space Marines and the vanguard of the Great
Crusade to re-unite Humanity after the warp storms caused by the birth
of Slaneesh finally abated. The first variants of Space Marine power
armor were actually developed for the Emperors wars to unite Earth.
The original genetic data used for the PRimarch project came from the
Emperor himself, so its not entirely surprising that harvesting from the
Emperor would be done to create special purpose chapters later on.
Myrmidon
>
> Newsbeitrag news:g66Tc.24069$js3.9...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > George Worroll wrote:
> >
> > > Ecke wrote:
> > >
> > >> And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went
> > >> missing
> > >> after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Last correction, I swear!
> >
> > Alpharius, primarch of the Alpha Legion, was killed by Roboute Guillaman
> > during the Heresy.
> >
> > And this annihilates whatever point I was trying to make about the
> > number of absolute confirmed dead, unless Guillaman is counted as
> > confirmed dead despite the beliefs of some of the Ultramarines.
>
> Thank You.
> I wondered because I found it strange that such elevated human could simply
> vanish.
>
> I assume the Emporer was once a primach, more or less like the other.
That's incorrect. The Emperor is a lot older than the Primarchs
and is the model and genetic source from which they were created. As
far as the fluff goes - the Emperor is as far above the Primarchs as
they are above Space Marines. That's why he's the psychic source for
the beacon by which all Human starships use to navigate through the
vastness of the warp. The only Primarch that came close to rivalling
the Emperor's power was Horus.
> No
> reference was made to his legion, so I assumed it must be one of the missing
> ones.
No - the Emperor considered all the space marine legions to be
*his* legions. The various Legions were all simply lead by his most
trusted servants, the Primarchs, when they weren't being lead by the
Emperor himself.
> And the fluff in the demonhunter codex says the Grey Knights' genetic
> improvements came directly from the emporer. They were founded in the second
> round. So the forebearers would be one of the missing legions.
Again - not correct. Grey Knights are 3rd Founding. IIRC the G.K.
codex does not list a Primarch or any line of direct decent from other
chapters of the first or even 2nd Founding. It's quite possible that
their geneseed is a combination of that taken from one or more of the
loyal primarchs AND the emperor since these marines are dedicated to
directly dealing with the warping influences of chaos.
> The theory about the utter defeat sounds reasonalbe, too.
> Well, I will think about it for a while. Perhaps I will find the solution
> somewhere deep inside the archieves of terry.
>
Good luck - I don't think even the original game designers had
firm ideas of who/what the missing legions really are/were.
Myrmidon
--
#1582. I think they call it Warhammer "40K" because that is how
much you are going to have to make per year in order to play.
- Eric Noland
# 1082. Pound for pound I can buy cocaine cheaper than
raise a Warhammer army
- Roy Cox
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/gwprice/
****
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Or...
George Worroll
> "George Worroll" <gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> schrieb im
> Newsbeitrag news:g66Tc.24069$js3.9...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
>>George Worroll wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ecke wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went
>>>>missing
>>>>after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
>>>
>>>
Note that I was a bit wrong on one point- the assault involving the
Salamanders I mentioned was agaisnt Ichar III, not Ichar IV(which was a
battle with the Tyranids some ten thousand years later), it involved 7
legions, four defected to Horus, three were effectively destroyed with
only five survivors from the Salamanders legion getting away to warn the
Imperium.
George Worroll
> That's incorrect. The Emperor is a lot older than the Primarchs
> and is the model and genetic source from which they were created. As
> far as the fluff goes - the Emperor is as far above the Primarchs as
> they are above Space Marines. That's why he's the psychic source for
> the beacon by which all Human starships use to navigate through the
> vastness of the warp. The only Primarch that came close to rivalling
> the Emperor's power was Horus.
>
Actually, the psychic source is the Astronomicon choir, the Emperor
simply directs it.
And Horus only rivaled the Emperors power due to the influx of power
from the Chaos gods. It is possible that some of the Primarchs that
became Daemon Princes might have power close to that.
P Bowles
writes:
>I assume the Emporer was once a primach, more or less like the other.
The Primarchs were 20 genetically engineered humans created by the Emperor
using his own genetic material, who as far as anyone knows is a natural mutant
(albeit an immortal, highly psychic one) born somewhere in Anatolia several
millennia in the past (our past). There are superhumans (other than the
Primarchs) derived from the Emperor's geneseed, but they aren't Space Marines
as such - they're known as the Adeptus (or in modern fluff from the Horus
Heresy card game, Legio) Custodes, and are the Emperor's personal bodyguard on
Earth.
No
>reference was made to his legion, so I assumed it must be one of the missing
>ones. And the fluff in the demonhunter codex says the Grey Knights' genetic
>improvements came directly from the emporer.
That's hinted at in earlier fluff as well, but never stated explicitly. It may
not be that they have the Emperor's geneseed, they may have been derived from
an existing Space Marine lineage that was further enhanced by the addition of
some of the Emperor's genetic material.
They were founded in the second
>round. So the forebearers would be one of the missing legions.
Unlikely. A Second Founding Chapter could have been derived from any of the
first 20. The Grey Knights specifically are noted in past fluff as the sole
product of the Third Founding, with their origin a mystery. The missing legions
were most likely destroyed - if they hadn't been there would be some record of
their activity. It may be that their Primarchs were killed before the Emperor
could find them (or maybe they were never found) and so the Legions were
planned but never created.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
The Index Astartes describes El'Jonson as 'mortally wounded' and then goes onto
say that he had fallen (when mentioning that Luther collapsed beside him),
which suggests he's dead. I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
Philip Bowles
Langley
P Bowles wrote:
> Unlikely. A Second Founding Chapter could have been derived from any of the
> first 20. The Grey Knights specifically are noted in past fluff as the sole
> product of the Third Founding, with their origin a mystery. The missing legions
> were most likely destroyed - if they hadn't been there would be some record of
> their activity. It may be that their Primarchs were killed before the Emperor
> could find them (or maybe they were never found) and so the Legions were
> planned but never created.
>
> Philip Bowles
If i am not mistaken the Grey knights were the 666th founded space
marine chapter (Assumed during the Third Founding). Can't remember where
I read that but I am pretty sure some old art with 666 inscribed on some
grey knight's armor.
Master Ravenclaw
P Bowles
writes:
The Grey Knights Chapter number is indeed 666, but I don't know that it's ever
been established for certain that a Chapter number refers to the order in which
the Chapter was created, or if so whether or not a special dispensation was
made for the GKs for the purposes of dramatic irony.
Philip Bowles
Helicon_One
> news:cfiedk$t2s$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
> > I would guess that one of these
> > would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey
Knights.
>
> IIRC the Grey Knights were of the Third Founding and not counted in there.
> I don't recall ever reading anything about the Emperor leading them.
p.22 of the 2nd Ed Dark Millenium supplement, first paragraph:
"The Grey Knights Chapter was the sole creation of the Second Founding in
the 31st Millennium."
Obviously this throws up a slight problem, as the Second Founding is also
listed as the founding at which the Space Marine Legions were broken down
into the smaller Chapter formations. The obvious answer to this is that
there were effectively two 'Second Foundings'; the official one which broke
up the Loyalist Legions, and the top secret one where the Grey Knights were
formed.
Hope this helps,
Tim
--
----------------
there's nothing wrong with you that a little beheading wouldn't fix.
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Robert Williams
"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040813152732...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> In article <cfitvl$aai$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Robert Williams"
> <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> Lion'El Jonson: Killed by Luther on Caliban at the end of the Horus
> >Heresy.
> >
> >Not killed. He was severely blasted by a psychic attack from Luther, and
> >was taken off by the Watchers in The Dark. The Dark Angels beleive he
> >disappeared, but he is infact hidden in a secluded chamber of the Tower
of
> >Angels (The Rock).
>
> The Index Astartes describes El'Jonson as 'mortally wounded' and then goes
onto
> say that he had fallen (when mentioning that Luther collapsed beside him),
> which suggests he's dead.
OK, but he was taken away by the Watchers in the Dark, and hidden in a
secret chamber of the Rock, and lies sleeping there. It was in the Angels
of Death Codex, though it isn't repeated word for word in the IA article
(Luther syas the watchers took him). None of the Dark Angels know he is
there.
I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter know he
is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
Rob
>
> Philip Bowles
Blue Raja
news:cfl21p$coh$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> > hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
>
> He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter know he
> is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper age for
Marines is in the hundreds of years.
George Worroll
> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cfl21p$coh$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
>>
>>>hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
>>
>>He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter know he
>>is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
>
>
> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper age for
> Marines is in the hundreds of years.
>
Probably a side effect of his dalliance with Chaos, or possibly
intervention by the Watchers. Luther was actually a normal human, while
he held the office of XO of the Dark Angels Legion, he had been too old
to be made into a biological Space Marine.
Robert Williams
> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cfl21p$coh$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> > > hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
> >
> > He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter know
he
> > is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
>
> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years?
Nope. I presume he is kept in stasis by the watchers.
The general upper age for
> Marines is in the hundreds of years.
He is a primarch though. They may have much longer life spans than your
average marine.
Rob
Robert Williams
> news:cfl21p$coh$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> > > hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
> >
> > He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter know
he
> > is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
>
> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper age
for
> Marines is in the hundreds of years.
Disregard my previous reply, I didn't read your message properly and thought
you were talking about Lion El'jonson.
It does explain how he has lived for 10,000 years. He is kept in a stasis
field.
Rob
Blue Raja
<cfngv0$201$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>>> I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
>>>> hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
>>>
>>> He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter
>>> know he is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make
>>> him repent.
>>
>> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper
>> age for Marines is in the hundreds of years.
>
> Disregard my previous reply, I didn't read your message properly and
> thought you were talking about Lion El'jonson.
>
> It does explain how he has lived for 10,000 years. He is kept in a
> stasis field.
That explains why he hasn't repented then - the outside world assumes he's
been sitting there alone except for each thousand years when he's asked to
repent, but to him it's only a few minutes.
Robert Williams
> Not to be outdone by Howard Dean, Robert Williams bellowed
> <cfngv0$201$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>:
> >>> I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> >>>> hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
> >>>
> >>> He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter
> >>> know he is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make
> >>> him repent.
> >>
> >> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper
> >> age for Marines is in the hundreds of years.
> >
> > Disregard my previous reply, I didn't read your message properly and
> > thought you were talking about Lion El'jonson.
> >
> > It does explain how he has lived for 10,000 years. He is kept in a
> > stasis field.
>
> That explains why he hasn't repented then - the outside world assumes he's
> been sitting there alone except for each thousand years when he's asked to
> repent, but to him it's only a few minutes.
He hasn't repented because he beleives that Jonson will return and forgive
him. And because he has gone completely bananas.
Rob
Doctor Rock
>
> "Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2o7qvsF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:cfl21p$coh$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
> > > > hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
> > >
> > > He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter
know
> he
> > > is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make him repent.
> >
> > Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years?
>
> Nope. I presume he is kept in stasis by the watchers.
doubt it. I reckon they'd consider that way too easy on him. he's probably
hooked up to some kind of Dark Age life-support system.
> The general upper age for
> > Marines is in the hundreds of years.
>
> He is a primarch though. They may have much longer life spans than your
> average marine.
Luther was a primarch? I thought he was a chaos champion.
P Bowles
<the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> writes:
>Not to be outdone by Howard Dean, Robert Williams bellowed
><cfngv0$201$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>>>> I thought Luther was the one hidden in the Rock,
>>>>> hence the periodic attempts to make him repent?
>>>>
>>>> He is, but in his case the highest ranking memebers of the chapter
>>>> know he is there, and, as you said, periodically attempt to make
>>>> him repent.
>>>
>>> Does it explain how he's lived for 10,000 years? The general upper
>>> age for Marines is in the hundreds of years.
>>
>> Disregard my previous reply, I didn't read your message properly and
>> thought you were talking about Lion El'jonson.
>>
>> It does explain how he has lived for 10,000 years. He is kept in a
>> stasis field.
>
>That explains why he hasn't repented then - the outside world assumes he's
>been sitting there alone except for each thousand years when he's asked to
>repent, but to him it's only a few minutes.
One thing that puzzles me is that we have the same description in the
El'Jonson/Luther battle as in the Emperor/Horus one - i.e. at the last moment
(after downing El'Jonson in this case) he appears to see the light and be
horrified by what he's done. So - why hasn't he repented long before now if
he's known he was wrong all along?
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
If he hasn't repented, then surely he can't believe there's anything for which
he needs forgiveness?
Philip Bowles
Myrmidon
pbo...@aol.com Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
I get the impression that Luther is waiting for El'Jonson
personally to forgive him or ask otherwise ask Luther to repent. (Which
explains why it's been - and looks to continue to be - such a long
wait.)
P Bowles
<Im...@home.com> writes:
Surely he needs to repent before he can ask for forgiveness? In any case,
hasn't anyone told him just how long he's been in stasis? Chapter legends that
their Primarchs may return aside, there's no reason to believe that even a
Primarch is capable of living for ten thousand years without dying of old age.
The various 'lost' Primarchs who might return mostly went missing in the
EoT/warp, where time is sufficiently different that they could conceivably
reappear after ten millennia, but in normal space?
Even if El'Jonson was alive when recovered by the watchers - and since Luther
struck the mortal blow, what gives him any reason to think El'Jonson did
survive? - unless the watchers have him in stasis he could well have died of
old age in the intervening period. I don't know of any reference that states
the Primarchs had longer lifespans than normal Space Marines, let alone that
they're immortal like the Emperor.
(Which
>explains why it's been - and looks to continue to be - such a long
>wait.)
>
Probably a permanent one.
Philip Bowles
George Worroll
>>He hasn't repented because he beleives that Jonson will return and forgive
>>him. And because he has gone completely bananas.
>
>
> If he hasn't repented, then surely he can't believe there's anything for which
> he needs forgiveness?
>
> Philip Bowles
He probably believes that Jonson is the only one with the authority to
forgive him, therefore expressing repentance to anyone else is utterly
pointless. From the fluff it does appear as if he has repented in his
heart, he is just witholding his official statement until the return of
Jonson.
George Worroll
> Even if El'Jonson was alive when recovered by the watchers - and since Luther
> struck the mortal blow, what gives him any reason to think El'Jonson did
> survive? - unless the watchers have him in stasis he could well have died of
> old age in the intervening period. I don't know of any reference that states
> the Primarchs had longer lifespans than normal Space Marines, let alone that
> they're immortal like the Emperor.
Jonson may well have been taken to the warp by the watchers, or who
knows, perhaps they healed him and plopped him back into realspace-
albeit far into the future. They may have even told Luther of when
Jonson is to return. With so little said about the Watchers, they are
one of GW's ultimate cards to play to explain something that makes no sense.
As for Primarch longevity, several of the loyalist Primarchs survived at
least into the 32nd century, having been created between the 29th
century, that gives them a natural lifespan of at least 3,000 years. A
normal Space Marines lifespan seems to be in the area of 500 or so-
Cassius, Ultramarines Chaplain is considered to be quite old at the age
of 400, though he is still in good fighting shape indicating he has a
good bit more time left before he dies naturally. Whether the Primarchs
are immortal or not is unknown, but their natural lifespans are measured
in millenia.
P Bowles
<gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> writes:
>As for Primarch longevity, several of the loyalist Primarchs survived at
>least into the 32nd century, having been created between the 29th
>century,
Millennia, surely.
that gives them a natural lifespan of at least 3,000 years. A
>normal Space Marines lifespan seems to be in the area of 500 or so-
>Cassius, Ultramarines Chaplain is considered to be quite old at the age
>of 400, though he is still in good fighting shape indicating he has a
>good bit more time left before he dies naturally.
Logan Grimnar fought in the First Battle for Armageddon, 550 years ago by the
current timeline, and he was the Great Wolf then. IIRC he's the oldest living
Space Marine mentioned in fluff. There's still a world of difference between a
lifespan of, say, 700 or even 3,000 years and one of 10,000.
Philip Bowles
Brion K. Lienhart
Still, none of the primarchs just died of old age. And how's about the
Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, he's 1,000 years old. Commander Dante?
Ecke
"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040815132400...@mb-m21.aol.com...
As far as I know, stasis is used by the inquisition for non time critical
questioning. In the Black Library book Draco? (by Ian Watson, German Title :
Inquisitor) the process is described as extremly unpleasant. Between Life
and Death, no time passing, yet somekind of feeling still exists.
And why someone hasn't repended, perhaps he doesn't understand the concept.
Ideology could have changed quite a bit in the years. How do we feel about
christian martyrs? Would we become one, too? And that is less than 2000
years. Or perhaps the prolonged stasis is his form of repending.
The lifespan could be quite long. No primachs actually lived to old age. If
they are of the Emporers Genseed they could be immortal. And who knows how
old a Space Marine could become, without wars and stuff? And that is without
all the extra stuff, like artificial prolonged youth, rejuniverating
processes, cybernetiks and tons of other medical stuff.
--
Ecke
Newsgroup FAQ @ http://www.rgmw.org
Due to technology humankind produced weapons of mass destruction. Without
technology it would just take a bit longer.
Lt. Cmdr. Jim
> P Bowles wrote:
<snip>
> As for Primarch longevity, several of the loyalist Primarchs survived at
> least into the 32nd century, having been created between the 29th
> century, that gives them a natural lifespan of at least 3,000 years. A
> normal Space Marines lifespan seems to be in the area of 500 or so-
> Cassius, Ultramarines Chaplain is considered to be quite old at the age
> of 400, though he is still in good fighting shape indicating he has a
> good bit more time left before he dies naturally. Whether the Primarchs
> are immortal or not is unknown, but their natural lifespans are measured
> in millenia.
Are there any references to space mariens ever getting to old to fight,
or indeed, having a finite natural lifespan at all?
--
=/\= Lt. Cmdr. Jim =/\=
It's only Usenent, everyone dies.
Not on behalf of any committee, real or imaginary, in this or any other
universe.
Brad Hann
> Salamanders I mentioned was agaisnt Ichar III, not Ichar IV(which was a
ITYM Istvaan.
Brad
--
Don't bother with the yahoo address - I never read it.
bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
Doctor Rock
"George Worroll" <gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> wrote in
message news:pdMTc.2502$5b4.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
... or he refuses to "repent" to a hierarchy of hypocrites who've been
compounding his original failure for 10,000 years ...
Doctor Rock
> One thing that puzzles me is that we have the same description in the
> El'Jonson/Luther battle as in the Emperor/Horus one - i.e. at the last
moment
> (after downing El'Jonson in this case) he appears to see the light and be
> horrified by what he's done. So - why hasn't he repented long before now
if
> he's known he was wrong all along?
because the Dark Angels chapter is organized and directed by the Inner
Circle, who place their own honor and objectives - in their case the
fixation on "redeeming" the Fallen - ahead of the obligations for which the
Emperor originally created them. hence, they've made a 10,000-year
institution out of precisely the same "original sin" as Luther committed.
George Worroll
> Are there any references to space mariens ever getting to old to fight,
> or indeed, having a finite natural lifespan at all?
>
Not that I'm aware of, you have a good point. Cassius of the
Ultramarines *is* described as aging, the implication is that some of
his slowing down is due to age alone rather than accumulated injuries.
Given Logan Grimnars age of around 700, and Casssius showing signs of
aging at 400, my guess would be a normal life expectancy in the area of
750 years, probably an upper limit of a millenium. Quirks of the human
stock they draw from would have an influence, as would the quality of
their gene seed- some Marine chapters have malfunctioning or missing
gene seed for some of the implants, which could affect life span.
This is just speculation based on the very sketchy fluff data about
Marines that have reached a truly extreme age.
Ecke
"George Worroll" <gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:GCTTc.4588$5b4.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Well, actually I come to about 1300. Slowing down to age begins a lot sooner
than one would expect. I think I read once that the primetime for soldiering
is up to 25. After that physical fitness starts a decline. But even if you
take 30 for the first signs of slowing down (don't get me wrong, I am not
talking wheelchair, I am talking 11 seconds for the 100 yard instead 9.9)
you get to an age of about 1100. And that is based upon an average life
expectancy of 80 years. ( 400 / 30 * 80 = 1066 ). If you go to the extrems
and take the lifespan of an Inquisitor, who hasn't got enhanched genseed and
gets easily to 200 (Codex Demon Hunter, Inquisitor Quixos gets about 320
before being killed) you get a life time of 3200. (400/25*200). So why using
this low age for the start of slowing? Space Marines are an elite force, no
surprise. Even the smallest bit of slowing would be detected.
Oh, BTW, another interesting idea: Up to 12 they aged normally. Then they
get their meds and the aging process is fouled up. Lets take them 3 years to
become completed. So they are 15 when they stop being human. The next 400
years ( actually 385 ) they age until they become as we are with 25. So they
have a realitivly aged 10 years in 385 years. (385/10*200) Now we are at
7700 years!
John Turner
>While browsing through the Codex Space Marine I found that there are two
>"missing" Legions. On the third last page? is a list of all the legions,
>their primarchs, homeworlds and a bit extra history. It stays something like
>"All records deleted" in two occasions. I would guess that one of these
>would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey Knights.
>But what of the other one? Is there any fluff for these two missing legions?
>And a similar topic: It also states that the primachs died or went missing
>after 32k. Which primachs went missing, which died?
Well, in the rogue trader book, there is a chapter called The Rainbow
Warriors. They seem to have been expunged from all GW records in a
"gee, that's not a cool sounding name" crusade. Perhaps this is one
of the lost legions (My theory anyway) :)
P Bowles
<ave...@ev1.REMOVETHISBITTOREPLY.net> writes:
More likely Greenpeace just went out of fashion. That, or the Chapter's
battlebarge was scuttled by the French and they've been stuck on their
homeworld ever since.
Philip Bowles
Karyth Teel
"John Turner" <ave...@ev1.REMOVETHISBITTOREPLY.net> wrote in message
news:mp04i0d8g4qvi6h3e...@4ax.com...
> Well, in the rogue trader book, there is a chapter called The Rainbow
> Warriors. They seem to have been expunged from all GW records in a
> "gee, that's not a cool sounding name" crusade. Perhaps this is one
> of the lost legions (My theory anyway) :)
Actually, they popped some time in 3rd ed. as well. I remember wondering if
there were Jeff Gordon fans at GW, or if it was simply an incredibly lame
chapter.
According to a friend in the Latin Dept, the only Roman Legions whose
records were expurged were those legions who were wiped out in combat
dishonourably. The romans tracked down traitor legions (just like the
Imperium), but considered letting an entire Legion be annhialated a grave
insult to the state itself. That's my guess.
Karyth Teel
George Worroll
>
> According to a friend in the Latin Dept, the only Roman Legions whose
> records were expurged were those legions who were wiped out in combat
> dishonourably. The romans tracked down traitor legions (just like the
> Imperium), but considered letting an entire Legion be annhialated a grave
> insult to the state itself. That's my guess.
>
> Karyth Teel
>
>
That would make a lot of sense for the two missing legions to be the
ones annihilated on Istvaan IV.
Insane Ranter
"George Worroll" <gewor...@die.optonline.spammers.net.die> wrote in
More better to say they been eatin by 'Nids and they were all in the same
port-a-potty when it happened too
Blue Raja
news:DKvUc.4635$rd5....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > That would make a lot of sense for the two missing legions to be the
> > ones annihilated on Istvaan IV.
>
> More better to say they been eatin by 'Nids and they were all in the same
> port-a-potty when it happened too
Classic.
Whoever's taking these down, FILE IT!
Insane Ranter
> "Insane Ranter" <sp...@not.me> wrote in message
> news:DKvUc.4635$rd5....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > That would make a lot of sense for the two missing legions to be the
> > > ones annihilated on Istvaan IV.
> >
> > More better to say they been eatin by 'Nids and they were all in the
same
> > port-a-potty when it happened too
>
> Classic.
> Whoever's taking these down, FILE IT!
>
> --
Whoo hoooo
Ratimir
> "Blue Raja" <the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2o3ub6F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>"Ecke" <White...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>>news:cfiedk$t2s$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
>
>>>I would guess that one of these
>>>would be the legion led by the Emperor so in fact being the Grey
>
> Knights.
>
>>IIRC the Grey Knights were of the Third Founding and not counted in there.
>>I don't recall ever reading anything about the Emperor leading them.
>
>
> p.22 of the 2nd Ed Dark Millenium supplement, first paragraph:
>
> "The Grey Knights Chapter was the sole creation of the Second Founding in
> the 31st Millennium."
>
> Obviously this throws up a slight problem, as the Second Founding is also
> listed as the founding at which the Space Marine Legions were broken down
> into the smaller Chapter formations. The obvious answer to this is that
> there were effectively two 'Second Foundings'; the official one which broke
> up the Loyalist Legions, and the top secret one where the Grey Knights were
> formed.
>
Or simply that the second "founding" consisted of breaking up legions
into chapters, being a reorganisation rather than creation, and that the
Grey Knights were the only *creation* ie made from scratch.
Ratimir
Dante is over 1100 years old (although the BAs are supposed to live
longer than others). Furthermore there was a character in 2nd Ed (no
model) who had been Dante's sergeant when Dante was a scout, and was
still alive.
Insane Ranter
"Ratimir" <rat...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4122e328$0$25948$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Well.... techically... as long as they have your gene-seed you live forever
right???
That Boy There
>> According to a friend in the Latin Dept, the only Roman Legions
>> whose records were expurged were those legions who were wiped out
>> in combat dishonourably. The romans tracked down traitor legions
>> (just like the Imperium), but considered letting an entire Legion
>> be annhialated a grave insult to the state itself. That's my
>> guess.
> That would make a lot of sense for the two missing legions to be the
> ones annihilated on Istvaan IV.
Except that there isn't even any doubt about the Legions present on
Istvaan - it's mentioned several times in the Index Astartes series
who they all were. The Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders
remained loyal; the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha
Legion sided with Horus. The World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death
Guard, Thousand Sons and, obviously, Sons of Horus had already turned.
It was that battle that left the Raven Guard understrength for the
rest of the Heresy and led them to attempt to speed up the geneseed
implantation process, which in turn led to stories of Raven Guard
Marines herding hideously warped monsters into battle.
The Iron Hands maintain a grudge against the Salamanders and Raven
Guard for being slow to react, believing they could have crushed the
rebellion there if all three Legions had pressed the attack
simultaneously.
I'm sure even GW's designers will want to do /something/ more
interesting than say "they all got shot on Istvaan" if they ever
reveal who they were. That wouldn't add anything to the background at
all: "You know that story we've already regurgitated half a dozen
times? Turns out there were a couple more Legions there. They're all
dead now."
I mean, how the hell are they supposed to shift more toy soldiers with
/that/?
--
TBT
Blue Raja
news:c557b715.04081...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
While on the topic of Istvaan IV, what task requires 7 *Legions* of Space
Marines on the one planet, anyway? Frequently the fluff gives stories where
a company or so of Marines can turn the tide of war across an entire world;
that's only 100 Marines, where each of those Legions would've numbered in
the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands.
Robert Singers
wisdom
> While on the topic of Istvaan IV, what task requires 7 *Legions* of Space
> Marines on the one planet, anyway?
The Emperor lost a contact lense. It was gastly, I can tell you.
--
Rob Singers
RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Ecke
Solution a:
Horrible Genseed failure. The primach was already malfunctioning and the
space marines were even worse.
Solution b:
Lost in the cataclysm that send the primachs into the galaxy. Records
weren't deleted, records never existed.
Solution c:
They were wiped out by the other legions before the herasy and every record
was destroyed. Cause: They were the only female Space Marine Legion.
Solution d:
Ultra secret legions that were sent to colonize the universe.
Solution e:
A betrayal even before the herasy. After being completly destoyed all
records were also destroyed. BTW, Horus was a very good friend to the
commander of one of the lost legions. After the anhilation of that legion
horus meditated in solitude and there the chaos gods found him.
Solution f:
The primachs of the two never founded a legion and are to this day
protecting the Empire in both subtle and obvious ways.
Solution g:
I actually like the idea of a shameful defeat. But their homeplanets would
be conquered and thus even destroying the genseed.
Solution h:
An insider reference to the two writers that helped make the codex but were
fired by GW before it was published (total guess, no evidence).
Solution i:
The two legions existed, but a high ranking official of GW didn't like their
colours and ordered them dropped.
twitch
>
>Solution a:
>Horrible Genseed failure. The primach was already malfunctioning and the
>space marines were even worse.
But other chapters have had the same, and aren't expunged...
>Solution b:
>Lost in the cataclysm that send the primachs into the galaxy. Records
>weren't deleted, records never existed.
Kinda silly then to name them the 2nd and 9th legions, then.
>Solution c:
>They were wiped out by the other legions before the herasy and every record
>was destroyed. Cause: They were the only female Space Marine Legion.
Lame. The GW reps would love it.
>Solution d:
>Ultra secret legions that were sent to colonize the universe.
Most likely to be published solution. One went on to become the Grey Knights.
The other (using your explination above) became the founding members of the
Sisters of Battle.
>Solution e:
>A betrayal even before the herasy. After being completly destoyed all
>records were also destroyed. BTW, Horus was a very good friend to the
>commander of one of the lost legions. After the anhilation of that legion
>horus meditated in solitude and there the chaos gods found him.
Why is it that the only way you can go rogue/betray is to go chaos?
>Solution f:
>The primachs of the two never founded a legion and are to this day
>protecting the Empire in both subtle and obvious ways.
"I am the lord your Emperor. You are my creation. Stop hitting me. I shall give
you an army of fanaticaly devoted warriors to mould as you wish. Stop hitting
me. Unlimited power and wealth is yours to weild in my name. Stop hitting me.
What say you?"
>Solution g:
>I actually like the idea of a shameful defeat. But their homeplanets would
>be conquered and thus even destroying the genseed.
But it has happened before... Heh. Perhaps they are the two legions that never
learned ATSKNF?
>Solution h:
>An insider reference to the two writers that helped make the codex but were
>fired by GW before it was published (total guess, no evidence).
They'd play with the idea of the two legions, then decide they were all
sleeping on a moon when a huge Kroot force came through feeling peckish...
>Solution i:
>The two legions existed, but a high ranking official of GW didn't like their
>colours and ordered them dropped.
Solution j:
It's cooler and more mysterious (tm) to have two legions whose records were
expunged.
--
*twitch*
(Formerly known as Saint wasisname)
"...money is like air or love -- unimportant if you've got enough of it, but
desperately important if you haven't."
--Terry Prachett
Just FAQ it: http://www.rgmw.org
Kill .Extreme to reply
Ecke
"twitch" <black...@aol.com.Extreme> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040818083315...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> >I had been thinking about the two missing order.
> >
> >Solution a:
> >Horrible Genseed failure. The primach was already malfunctioning and the
> >space marines were even worse.
>
> But other chapters have had the same, and aren't expunged...
I thought other order had them. And some of these order were expunged. But
can you imagine a primach with that kind of failure?
<SNIP
>> >Solution e:
> >A betrayal even before the herasy. After being completly destoyed all
> >records were also destroyed. BTW, Horus was a very good friend to the
> >commander of one of the lost legions. After the anhilation of that legion
> >horus meditated in solitude and there the chaos gods found him.
>
> Why is it that the only way you can go rogue/betray is to go chaos?
Never said they went to Chaos. Only that Horus was so crushed by his friend
being crushed, that he went over to chaos.
<SNIP>
> Solution j:
> It's cooler and more mysterious (tm) to have two legions whose records
were
> expunged.
Mhmm... You are quite right. But isn't that too much credit?
Doctor Rock
"twitch" <black...@aol.com.Extreme> wrote in message
news:20040818083315...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> >I had been thinking about the two missing order.
> >
> >Solution a:
> >Horrible Genseed failure. The primach was already malfunctioning and the
> >space marines were even worse.
>
> But other chapters have had the same, and aren't expunged...
yeah they are. or at least it's always attempted, even if they sometimes
escape.
> >Solution b:
> >Lost in the cataclysm that send the primachs into the galaxy. Records
> >weren't deleted, records never existed.
>
> Kinda silly then to name them the 2nd and 9th legions, then.
agreed, the legions themselves must have existed at some point, even if
their primarchs were lost and they were never re-united.
> >Solution d:
> >Ultra secret legions that were sent to colonize the universe.
>
> Most likely to be published solution. One went on to become the Grey
Knights.
> The other (using your explination above) became the founding members of
the
> Sisters of Battle.
SoBs aren't genetically altered though. they just have the implants for
power armor interface.
> >Solution g:
> >I actually like the idea of a shameful defeat. But their homeplanets
would
> >be conquered and thus even destroying the genseed.
>
> But it has happened before... Heh. Perhaps they are the two legions that
never
> learned ATSKNF?
perhaps they were simply sent out on a long-range mission very early in the
crusade and never returned, presumed wiped out.
> Solution j:
> It's cooler and more mysterious (tm) to have two legions whose records
were
> expunged.
even though it makes ever-decreasing sense as other areas of the background
are developed.
P Bowles
thatbo...@eudoramail.com (That Boy There) writes:
>Hi George,
>
>>> According to a friend in the Latin Dept, the only Roman Legions
>>> whose records were expurged were those legions who were wiped out
>>> in combat dishonourably. The romans tracked down traitor legions
>>> (just like the Imperium), but considered letting an entire Legion
>>> be annhialated a grave insult to the state itself. That's my
>>> guess.
>
>> That would make a lot of sense for the two missing legions to be the
>> ones annihilated on Istvaan IV.
>
>Except that there isn't even any doubt about the Legions present on
>Istvaan - it's mentioned several times in the Index Astartes series
>who they all were.
Ah, but that's a series written in the 41st Millennium - logically, if all
records of the two legions were expunged they could have been there without
being in the official histories, including fiddling the number of Legions
supposedly present.
Mind you, if a Chapter can be effectively eradicated (eg, Lamenters) without
being removed from the records, why would it be that much more dishonourable to
have lost a few more soldiers and been completely destroyed (okay a Legion is
far bigger than a Chapter, but still)?
>The Iron Hands maintain a grudge against the Salamanders and Raven
>Guard for being slow to react, believing they could have crushed the
>rebellion there if all three Legions had pressed the attack
>simultaneously.
>
>I'm sure even GW's designers will want to do /something/ more
>interesting than say "they all got shot on Istvaan" if they ever
>reveal who they were. That wouldn't add anything to the background at
>all: "You know that story we've already regurgitated half a dozen
>times? Turns out there were a couple more Legions there. They're all
>dead now."
>
>I mean, how the hell are they supposed to shift more toy soldiers with
>/that/?
Zombie Marines?
Philip Bowles
Helicon_One
news:20040818083315...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> >Solution e:
> >A betrayal even before the herasy. After being completly destoyed all
> >records were also destroyed. BTW, Horus was a very good friend to the
> >commander of one of the lost legions. After the anhilation of that legion
> >horus meditated in solitude and there the chaos gods found him.
>
> Why is it that the only way you can go rogue/betray is to go chaos?
It isn't, but as a sidenote, fluffwise it's certainly in the interests of
the Imperium to claim that to be the case, within those sections which have
some knowledge of Chaos. I wrote some fluff years back where the Imperium
had sent forces against a rebellion and had portrayed the rebels as being
Chaotic in nature simply to ensure that crushing them was given higher
priority than would otherwise have been the case.
Just a thought.
Tim
--
----------------
there's nothing wrong with you that a little beheading wouldn't fix.
rik zito - Usenet outtake
www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!
Currently listening to: 'Paper Faces' - Feeder
Lt. Cmdr. Jim
>>I had been thinking about the two missing order.
<snip>
> Solution j:
> It's cooler and more mysterious (tm) to have two legions whose records were
> expunged.
>
Solution k:
All records were lost when a Pimply-Faced Tech-novice failed to perform
the ritual of head-parking before starting the daily rite of
banging-the-server-with-a-big-hammer, and the tape of recovery would not
divulge the information, even though it had been honoured by the ritual
of backup every day for the last 10 000 years. No one has noticed
because both legions popped out to get some geen-seed storage racks from
Ikea, and by the time they managed to get back, the third founding had
happened, and there were at least half a dozen chapters who had nicked
their colour schemes.
In fact, teh only people who know of their existance is an administorum
group in Swindon, who have been out of contact for the last 4000 years
since they started routing all external requests through an outsourced
astopathic choir centre on Harit III. "If your enquiry is about
agricultural supplies, think 1 now..."
Ecke
> > >Solution b:
> > >Lost in the cataclysm that send the primachs into the galaxy. Records
> > >weren't deleted, records never existed.
> >
> > Kinda silly then to name them the 2nd and 9th legions, then.
>
> agreed, the legions themselves must have existed at some point, even if
> their primarchs were lost and they were never re-united.
Well, I am not sure. Imagine, you know there are 20 primachs somewhere in
the galaxy. So you draw up a chart with the known names of all twenty of
them. You start flying around and find the first one outside sol. He has a
legion. The one on terra has a legion. Mhmmm. All of them have legions. You
update the chart to allow the legions to be inserted, too. But hey, the name
of the primach is diffrent from any on the chart. Mhmmm, must have renamed
himself or something. So lets delete all the names and continue looking. 16
primachs later no more are found. And after a few thousand years (the time
needed to form the empire) there is no idea how the missing names could have
been. You end up with a chart more or less looking like the fluffy one. And
why the 2nd and 9th? Obvious the chart is not in the correct order. Else
terra would have been on top. Or the alpha guy. I can actually see that
chart being hand copied a few times. Ups, forgot that line over there. Let
me put it in on the end.
That Boy There
> Ah, but that's a series written in the 41st Millennium - logically,
> if all records of the two legions were expunged they could have been
> there without being in the official histories, including fiddling
> the number of Legions supposedly present.
Fair point, though the style of that series was horribly
inconsistent; several articles appeared to have been written as an
official "god's eye view" of what really happened and hastily bodged
into "the Imperium's perspective" at a later date. I suppose it
leaves them a loophole if that's what they wanted to do.
Still, I can't imagine why they'd want to do that. Even if they
wanted to reveal the lost Legions (and I don't think they should - a
few mysterious gaps in the history are way more convincing than
any background they've been writing lately), making them a footnote in
another battle would be lame. They warrant something a hell of a lot
more special than that.
>> I mean, how the hell are they supposed to shift more toy soldiers
>> with /that/?
> Zombie Marines?
Quiet, man, they'll hear you!
--
TBT
Myrmidon
Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> <SNIP>
> > > >Solution b:
> > > >Lost in the cataclysm that send the primachs into the galaxy. Records
> > > >weren't deleted, records never existed.
> > >
> > > Kinda silly then to name them the 2nd and 9th legions, then.
> >
> > agreed, the legions themselves must have existed at some point, even if
> > their primarchs were lost and they were never re-united.
>
> Well, I am not sure. Imagine, you know there are 20 primachs somewhere in
> the galaxy. So you draw up a chart with the known names of all twenty of
> them. You start flying around and find the first one outside sol. He has a
> legion. The one on terra has a legion. Mhmmm. All of them have legions.
Again - this is WRONG. The space marines were created *by the
emperor* after the primarchs were made and then lost, and prior to the
start of the Crusades. ALL of the legions (before they were divided up
into specific 'legions' {and later into chapters}) were with the Emperor
when he started the first of the great crusades to reunite mankind. As
he found various Primarchs and they proved themselves worthy - they were
then awarded command of a space marine legion of their own. All 20 of
the Primarchs did NOT develop marine legions independantly of each other
and the Emperor. As time progressed, the Geneseed of the various
Primarchs was added to their Legion's existing geneseed, and thus as new
marines were added to the legion, they began to take on the
characteristics of their Primarch as a group over time. Hence the
difference in temperament and abilities of various chapters, cf Space
Wolves, Blood Angles, Dark Angles, etc.
> You
> update the chart to allow the legions to be inserted, too. But hey, the name
> of the primach is diffrent from any on the chart. Mhmmm, must have renamed
> himself or something. So lets delete all the names and continue looking. 16
> primachs later no more are found. And after a few thousand years (the time
> needed to form the empire) there is no idea how the missing names could have
> been. You end up with a chart more or less looking like the fluffy one. And
> why the 2nd and 9th? Obvious the chart is not in the correct order. Else
> terra would have been on top. Or the alpha guy. I can actually see that
> chart being hand copied a few times. Ups, forgot that line over there. Let
> me put it in on the end.
Faulty premise and utterly crap conclusion. I don't mind rampant
speculation on the nature of the two missing legions. (I speculated
based on a very tiny snippet of RT era fluff that at least one of the
'missing legions' was actually 'female space marines' since they're
mentioned in the RT era fluff and not the watered down 'Sisters of
Battle' we have now.) But really dude, you need to search the web and
try to find a copy of the '40K fluff bible' some place. I realize that
not everyone has access to or been playing since the Rogue Trader days,
but it isn't impossible to gather up background info if you're really
interested in making 'educated' speculations about 'what's what' in the
40K setting. There's at least two versions of the fluff bible that I
know of - one's about 2 megs and the other is 4 plus megs. They're word
documents that have tons of the information from the various versions
combined in a sort of generalized over-view. The shorter one has some
flaws that I've seen (like some of the imperial tech descriptions) but
is at least decent over all. I'd like to get a copy of the larger
version but haven't run across it yet.
Myrmidon
--
#1582. I think they call it Warhammer "40K" because that is how
much you are going to have to make per year in order to play.
- Eric Noland
# 1082. Pound for pound I can buy cocaine cheaper than
raise a Warhammer army
- Roy Cox
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/gwprice/
****
RGMW FAQ: http://www.b3p0.com/~rgmw/
Or...
Ecke
"Myrmidon" <Im...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.1b8e8a16b...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
Haven't heard of it. I will look for it. Thank You. I am sorry if I offended
you with my speculations. I mixed two small pieces of stuff up and they came
out to three. Or perhaps the translation to german is a bit faulty but it
says roughly :"According to Grabayas Theory the genetic data of the primachs
were used to create new Space Marines. 20 Space Marine Legion of the First
Founding were createt, each led by one primach." (A small thing on the
timeline on the same page as the list)
With the information that the primachs had hold power position before being
found by the Empire I came to these faulty conclusions. Once again I
apologize.
P Bowles
>>> I mean, how the hell are they supposed to shift more toy soldiers
>>> with /that/?
>
>> Zombie Marines?
>
>Quiet, man, they'll hear you!
Anything to stave off the release of Ogryn Planets.
Philip Bowles
Brad Hann
> Primarchs was added to their Legion's existing geneseed, and thus as new
> marines were added to the legion, they began to take on the
> characteristics of their Primarch as a group over time. Hence the
> difference in temperament and abilities of various chapters, cf Space
> Wolves, Blood Angles, Dark Angles, etc.
I understood it to be that each of the twenty legions was created from
data and genetic samples taken from the Primarchs before they were
abducted. As each Primarch was found, he was reunited with the Legion
born from him.
Brad
--
Don't bother with the yahoo address - I never read it.
bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
Insane Ranter
Fishmen Marines!!
Doctor Rock
"Brad Hann" <lunta...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b8fd870a...@news.individual.net...
> As time progressed, the Geneseed of the various
> > Primarchs was added to their Legion's existing geneseed, and thus as new
> > marines were added to the legion, they began to take on the
> > characteristics of their Primarch as a group over time. Hence the
> > difference in temperament and abilities of various chapters, cf Space
> > Wolves, Blood Angles, Dark Angles, etc.
>
> I understood it to be that each of the twenty legions was created from
> data and genetic samples taken from the Primarchs before they were
> abducted. As each Primarch was found, he was reunited with the Legion
> born from him.
correct. the only difference in subsequent recruits is that they were drawn
from the primarchs' homeworlds rather than Terra.
Lawrence Matthews
It's interesting to note that (according to 2nd Edition Codex Space
Wolves, at least) that this wasn't during the Heresy, as someone
earlier claimed. It was post-heresy, with Russ charging into the Eye
with a vast number of Space Wolves.
Doctor Rock
"Lawrence Matthews" <obe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:909982d0.04082...@posting.google.com...
according to the most recent stuff, he survived the Heresy but wandered off
later, after experiencing a painfully-contrived "vision".
Paracelsis
>> with a vast number of Space Wolves.
>
>according to the most recent stuff, he survived the Heresy but wandered off
>later, after experiencing a painfully-contrived "vision".
>
>
>
Paracelsis (the Artist formerly known as Vorp)
_________________________________________
"I may be naked and covered in panda love, but before things go too far,
something has got to change."
Graham Thurlwell
He's in the queue at Archibalds' [sic] World, waiting for his custom
Combi-Bolter-and-Beer-Pump. Ahead of him are Lion el'Jonsson (sp?),
Leman Russ and the primarchs of the Missing Legions - Lucan and
Shergar. ;-)
--
Graham Thurlwell.
Jades' First Encounters Site.
http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web.
Brion K. Lienhart
news:MPG.1b8e8a16b...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> Faulty premise and utterly crap conclusion. I don't mind rampant
> speculation on the nature of the two missing legions. (I speculated
> based on a very tiny snippet of RT era fluff that at least one of the
> 'missing legions' was actually 'female space marines' since they're
> mentioned in the RT era fluff and not the watered down 'Sisters of
> Battle' we have now.) But really dude, you need to search the web and
Tsk, tsk. We should know better than to make a rookie mistake like that. No
such thing as female space marines. If you're talking about Sister Sin on pg
269 of Rogue Trader, she is indeed a member of the Adapta Sororitas, I
quote:
" As the power of the Adeptus Ministratum has grown, so a multitude of
sub-organisations have developed within the compass of the Ecclesiarchy. An
interesting example of this is the Adepta Sororitas, an order of devotional
warrior women. The Adepta is organised along similar lines to the Space
Marines. The Sisterhood..."
Myrmidon
bri...@comcast.net Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
Yes, please note several things in the pic and the above statements
you've provided from the old RT book. First up, there's no indication
as to females not being able to take the geneseed implantation process
(along with the various other biological upgrades and implants) until
fluff much later down the line. (IIRC it doesn't really show up until
the WD issue dealing with the 'Mentors' space marine chapter. Please
note that this is further backed up by GW/Citadel's early 'Female
Marine' figures - note they were definitely called 'Female Marines' and
not 'sororitas' - go look it up on the Stuff of Legends web site if you
don't know what I'm talking about.) Your quotation above "The Adepta is
organised along similar lines to the Space Marines." carries with it a
clear implication that both groups 'astartes' and 'sororitas', have a
great many similarities in methodology, materials, and uses (which would
conceivably include the implant process, etc, etc needed to operate
powered armor in the old RT era fluff.) The implication that the
'sororitas' are in many respects the equal of a typical marine is
further reinforced by the image of a 'sororitas' (i.e. female marine)
"Sister Sin" gunning down a traitor / heretic male marine. It gives at
least a vague implication that the 'sisters' were equal to their male
counterparts in terms of combat capacity and were a sort of 'oversight'
enforcement arm working for the Ecclesiarchy, much like the Inquisition
works more or less for the High Lords of Terra (in the old fluff).
After all, in the RT era we're talking about a huge, cumbersome,
redundant, and utterly paranoid bureaucracy {plagued by inaccurate
information and poor communications} run by superstitious genocidal
fanatics.
You can certainly argue that 'later fluff' precludes the possibility of
female space marines, but the early stuff (i.e. the time period when the
first founding list - including the two missing chapters was initially
presented) did not have it, and even the minis line (rough as it was)
supports the idea that it was possible for females to be marines. I
know it's far fetched, but then so's the whole 'Cypher' mystique too but
it's still a lot of fun. And apparently I'm not the only nut-job that
thinks female marines aren't so far fetched. The guy who runs the
"Tigers of Vesta" (or some such spelling) Marine Chapter web site has a
female marine as his Chapter's commander. Alas we'll never know since
GW has never really kept any sort of track of it's original time line or
all the 'fluff revisions' that it's hacked on along the way. Go ask the
squats...
Myrmidon.
Kenneth Coble
<snip>
> Alas we'll never know since GW has never really kept any sort of
> track of it's original time line or all the 'fluff revisions' that
> it's hacked on along the way. Go ask the squats...
With apologies to Simonides:
Go ask the squats, gamers passing by,
Where, due to Gav being a putz, they lie.
--
Ken Coble
They're whispering his name
through this disappearing land
But hidden in his coat
is a red right hand.
-Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, "Red Right Hand"