[WFB] Lizardmen on pre-order
Mikael
http://uk.games-
workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Odd&odd=RaceLayout2&_do=Default&code=
yes&game=2&database=350001 for anyone interested in cut&paste action),
and they really do look horrid.
The Saurus are thinner, and had their heads replaced with fish skulls.
Where they used to look bulky, strong and lizard-like, they've turned
into some kind of armoured sea horses. Terrible.
Surprisingly, Skinks come in boxes of 24, and they've been turned into
the Hormagaunts' younger brothers. Nothing of the amphibious look
remains; these are miniature Runners from Alien III. And yes, their
blowpipes look just as horrible as the chameleon skinks'. I swear I
thought the first one carrying one was the musician. The champion
apparently has a chainsword, and the shields look like dead turtles.
Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat the
Chaos Dwarfs.
--
Mikael
Chaotic Neutral
RGMW Minister of Law
==FAQ at http://www.rgmw.org - read it!==
Sacha Saxer
news:MPG.18f2689e6...@news.inet.fi...
> Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
> range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat the
> Chaos Dwarfs.
I just hope Gav does the same thing he did with the Cold One Knights. They
looked too fat so he reduced their movement. The new Saurus look stupid so
the should suffer from Stupidity.
Cheers,
Sacha
K Markus Viljanen
> The new lizards are on pre-order in the Online Store (the direct link is
> http://uk.games-
> workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Odd&odd=RaceLayout2&_do=Default&code=
> yes&game=2&database=350001 for anyone interested in cut&paste action),
> and they really do look horrid.
My eyes!! The goggles, they do NOTHING!!
> The Saurus are thinner, and had their heads replaced with fish skulls.
Granted, the red/blue paint scheme is absolutely horrible, but I have seen
these in better colours and they still suck, especially the shields.
> these are miniature Runners from Alien III.
Funny, I had the same exact flashback when I first saw these.
> And yes, their blowpipes look just as horrible as the chameleon skinks'.
Those are blowpipes? I thought they were the same bongs the designers have
been smoking...
> Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
> range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat
> the Chaos Dwarfs.
Eaten the chaos dwarfs? Surely not, such things have never existed in the
first place.
--
KMarkusV
http://koti.mbnet.fi/tosimies/
"Better dead than red(shirt)!"
P Bowles
<sa...@mac.com> writes:
But at least the Skinks will get Kroot stats...
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
writes:
>Surprisingly, Skinks come in boxes of 24
I'm not surprised; I said in the past they came six to a sprue. :-)
, and they've been turned into
>the Hormagaunts' younger brothers.
Aside from the poses, I still see no resemblance. Look more Krootish in
proportion to me, as one might have expected. Quite apart from the fact that
the blowpipes look less like blowpipes than the old shortbows do, I rather like
these models. The eyes do seem too big, though, and I don't like the scales on
the back.
Nothing of the amphibious look
>remains; these are miniature Runners from Alien III. And yes, their
>blowpipes look just as horrible as the chameleon skinks'. I swear I
>thought the first one carrying one was the musician. The champion
>apparently has a chainsword
Looks marginally better than the Saurus chainsword, but I hate the fact that
all Lizardmen these days seem to carry these. They're really ugly.
>, and the shields look like dead turtles.
I don't dislike them as much as I expected to - again, the Saurus ones are far
worse.
Okay, okay, there are clearly a lot of things I don't like about these models -
but somehow as a whole they seem to work for me.
>Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
>range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat the
>Chaos Dwarfs.
The Saurus already did - whose fangs do you think those are sticking out of
their mouths?
Overall, though, the Lizardman range has gone from characterful but cartoony
and poorly-made to cartoony, poorly-made and lacking in either character or
style. It's a great pity as I'm hoping for quite a lot from the army list
itself.
Philip Bowles
Mikael
Viljanen posted furiously:
> Mikael <mik...@ci5.gov> wrote:
> > The new lizards are on pre-order in the Online Store (the direct link is
> > http://uk.games-
> > workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Odd&odd=RaceLayout2&_do=Default&code=
> > yes&game=2&database=350001 for anyone interested in cut&paste action),
> > and they really do look horrid.
>
> My eyes!! The goggles, they do NOTHING!!
Nothing to add to this. =)
> > The Saurus are thinner, and had their heads replaced with fish skulls.
>
> Granted, the red/blue paint scheme is absolutely horrible, but I have seen
> these in better colours and they still suck, especially the shields.
I'll believe that. I think these could possibly be used as substitute
Kroot or something, but there's no way they'll ever make Saurus Warriors.
> > these are miniature Runners from Alien III.
>
> Funny, I had the same exact flashback when I first saw these.
It just came to me when I looked at them. Wow, runners. Now all I need is
Genestealers and a Nid for the Queen.
> > And yes, their blowpipes look just as horrible as the chameleon skinks'.
>
> Those are blowpipes? I thought they were the same bongs the designers have
> been smoking...
They may as well be anal probes. I wouldn't know because I won't buy the
filthy motherfuckers.
> > Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
> > range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat
> > the Chaos Dwarfs.
>
> Eaten the chaos dwarfs? Surely not, such things have never existed in the
> first place.
Oi. That's Nippon you're talking about. Or Fimir.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
> In article <MPG.18f2689e6...@news.inet.fi>, Mikael <mik...@ci5.gov>
> writes:
>
> >Surprisingly, Skinks come in boxes of 24
>
> I'm not surprised; I said in the past they came six to a sprue. :-)
It's not like I listen to you. =b
> , and they've been turned into
> >the Hormagaunts' younger brothers.
>
> Aside from the poses, I still see no resemblance. Look more Krootish in
> proportion to me, as one might have expected. Quite apart from the fact that
> the blowpipes look less like blowpipes than the old shortbows do, I rather like
> these models. The eyes do seem too big, though, and I don't like the scales on
> the back.
I just thought "Runners" the minute I saw them. There's something of the
same look in them. The models aren't that horrible, but they certainly
aren't Lizardmen.
> > Nothing of the amphibious look
> >remains; these are miniature Runners from Alien III. And yes, their
> >blowpipes look just as horrible as the chameleon skinks'. I swear I
> >thought the first one carrying one was the musician. The champion
> >apparently has a chainsword
>
> Looks marginally better than the Saurus chainsword, but I hate the fact that
> all Lizardmen these days seem to carry these. They're really ugly.
True.
> >, and the shields look like dead turtles.
>
> I don't dislike them as much as I expected to - again, the Saurus ones are far
> worse.
That's not much of an argument, you know. Using that line of reasoning I
could brush off all complaints by saying N*g*sh is worse.
> Okay, okay, there are clearly a lot of things I don't like about these models -
> but somehow as a whole they seem to work for me.
That's because you work for Cthulhu and have an affinity for lizards.
> >Executive summary: they've ruined a personal-looking, coherent model
> >range by turning it into Fantasy Nids. Next thing we know they'll eat the
> >Chaos Dwarfs.
>
> The Saurus already did - whose fangs do you think those are sticking out of
> their mouths?
LOL.
> Overall, though, the Lizardman range has gone from characterful but cartoony
> and poorly-made to cartoony, poorly-made and lacking in either character or
> style. It's a great pity as I'm hoping for quite a lot from the army list
> itself.
Likewise. I just hope I won't have to make major changes to my existing
army.
Mikael
Saxer posted furiously:
Wouldn't that mean the Orc plastics should get WS bonuses because
everyone feels sorry for how idiotic they look?
P Bowles
writes:
>Wouldn't that mean the Orc plastics should get WS bonuses because
>everyone feels sorry for how idiotic they look?
Catachans at least get S5, but they have to roll a D6 every turn - on a 1 the
steroids have had dreadful side-effects and they're removed from the game.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
writes:
>> > The Saurus are thinner, and had their heads replaced with fish skulls.
>>
>> Granted, the red/blue paint scheme is absolutely horrible, but I have seen
>> these in better colours and they still suck, especially the shields.
>
>I'll believe that. I think these could possibly be used as substitute
>Kroot or something, but there's no way they'll ever make Saurus Warriors.
Looking at the new Saurus, I've concluded that most of us have been a bit
harsh. The weapons and shields are a problem, but the beauty of the modular
parts is that they can be left off. Remove the head and make the poses more
interesting, and the body's fine.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
>cartoony
>> and poorly-made to cartoony, poorly-made and lacking in either character or
>> style. It's a great pity as I'm hoping for quite a lot from the army list
>> itself.
>
>Likewise. I just hope I won't have to make major changes to my existing
>army.
I've got five Krox and a couple of Sallies, and I do quite like the new Slann
and Skinks, so a Southlands army may be in the offing - not immediately,
though, as I'll probably turn back to the Eldar with Eye of Terror. I'm also
thinking of the possibilities of converting new Skinks to ride old Cold Ones -
being closer to human or Dark Elf size, they shouldn't look as clumsily
'stuck-on' as Tichi-Huichi and co.
Philip Bowles
Samuel Campbell
P Bowles <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030401153148...@mb-fh.aol.com...
absoultely horrid the figures themselves aren't that bad.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
> >> Overall, though, the Lizardman range has gone from characterful but
> >cartoony
> >> and poorly-made to cartoony, poorly-made and lacking in either character or
> >> style. It's a great pity as I'm hoping for quite a lot from the army list
> >> itself.
> >
> >Likewise. I just hope I won't have to make major changes to my existing
> >army.
>
> I've got five Krox and a couple of Sallies, and I do quite like the new Slann
> and Skinks, so a Southlands army may be in the offing - not immediately,
> though, as I'll probably turn back to the Eldar with Eye of Terror.
I'm busy with Necromunda, so I'm hoping I won't need to buy anything
more to make a legal Lizardman army.
> I'm also
> thinking of the possibilities of converting new Skinks to ride old Cold Ones -
> being closer to human or Dark Elf size, they shouldn't look as clumsily
> 'stuck-on' as Tichi-Huichi and co.
That could work, really. I just think the idea of Cold One fast cavalry
is ridiculous.
Mikael
Samuel Campbell posted furiously:
I've seen them live as well, and I still think they're pants. And even if
they weren't, they'd still be much too 40K for my tastes.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
Note: Envoys of Nyarlhotep are disqualified from commenting on lizards
with plans of world domination as it's obvious they're blatantly biased.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
This all uncannily foreshadows the Depeche Mode disco rules of the
Wulfen...
Samuel Campbell
abhorred.
P Bowles
writes:
>> I'm also
>> thinking of the possibilities of converting new Skinks to ride old Cold
>Ones -
>> being closer to human or Dark Elf size, they shouldn't look as clumsily
>> 'stuck-on' as Tichi-Huichi and co.
>
>That could work, really. I just think the idea of Cold One fast cavalry
>is ridiculous.
Well, this is an M8 unit. Fast cavalry has more to do with the riders' training
and equipment than the nature of the mount, though - after all, some horsemen
are fast cavalry and others aren't.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<mani...@Im.an.Atheiest.Cunt.optushome.com.au> writes:
>> I've seen them live as well, and I still think they're pants. And even if
>> they weren't, they'd still be much too 40K for my tastes.
>>
>40k - WTF?
I think he means the ludicrously exaggerated Tyranid head crest on the Saurus
(and indeed the carnosaur, which disappoints me not because of its quality, but
because it looks nothing at all like a predatory dinosaur). The Skinks still
look more like fantasy Kroot than Hormagaunts, though, and the chameleon skinks
are just poorly-modelled; the style's fine.
IMHO they are better than the previous lot of lizardmen which I
>abhorred.
I'd compare as follows, on the standard 1-5 scale:
Lord Kroak: 3-4 (hard to tell). No old version.
Saurus Lord on Carnosaur: 3. No old version.
Toad-onna-stick: 4. Old version 3, but let down a little by the bearers.
Saurus Lord: Not seen him well enough to judge, but looks poor.
Army Standard Bearer: Not seen him well enough to judge.
Skink Priest: 3. Old Skink Shaman 3; old Tenehuini 3.5.
Saurus Warriors: 1 (I honestly can't see anything to like). Old version 2-2.5
Skinks: 3.5-4 (with javelins - the trumpets are a let-down). Old version 3
Jungle Swarm: Haven't seen. Old swarms 1.5
Temple Guard: Haven't seen. Old version 3
Entrusted Saurus: No idea if there are models.
Saurus Cavalry: Champion 0-1; others not seen well enough to judge.
Skink Raptor Cavalry: 2, Inxi-Huinxi (Skink Hero) 2. PIty no new models.
Terradons: Haven't seen. Old version 1.5
Kroxigor: 2. Old version 3
Salamander: 2. Old version 2.5-3 (nice new runners though)
Stegadon: 1.5
Chameleon Skinks: 2. Oxayotl 3
Devout: No idea if there are models (frankly I doubt it).
So, of those I've seen, this is a long way of saying that, Skinks and Slann
aside, I preferred the old models, even though the old range was universally
pretty poor. I think a lot could have been done to improve the models while
retaining the style. I'm also disappointed that the Southlands units aren't
getting their own new models; old Skinks don't go well with newer ones. I'd
have much preferred the Lizards to stay as one list, with the expanded unit
selection - the Lustria (main) list has no more variety than the 5th Ed. army
list.
despite suggesting that, minus head, arms and possibly legs the new models are
fine, the scaled backs are pretty horrid as well. Point me to real lizards that
have an extra layer of thick, so obviously divided scales down part of their
back, but not the rest of them. This is also the characteristic I like least
about the new Skinks, and that makes it hard to use them alongside old ones
quite apart from the size difference.
Among the Saurus, only the carnosaur rider is good enough to merit being
described as an eyesore. The rest are uniformly dreadful - despite suggesting
that, minus head, arms and possibly legs the new models are fine, the scaled
backs are pretty horrid as well. Point me to real lizards that have an extra
layer of thick, so obviously divided scales down part of their back, but not
the rest of them. This is also the characteristic I like least about the new
Skinks, and that makes it hard to use them alongside old ones quite apart from
the size difference.
Back to the Saurus, the cavalry champion is unutterably hideous. He's the same
size as his mount or slightly larger for a start, which isn't good. Why is he
flailing his arms madly while lurching forward in a way that suggests he's
desperately trying not to fall off?
Philip Bowles
Blackheart
>In article <20030401153143...@mb-fh.aol.com>, a sleeping P
>Bowles posted furiously:
>> In article <MPG.18f414c56...@news.inet.fi>, Mikael <mik...@ci5.gov>
>> writes:
>>
>> >Wouldn't that mean the Orc plastics should get WS bonuses because
>> >everyone feels sorry for how idiotic they look?
>>
>> Catachans at least get S5, but they have to roll a D6 every turn - on a 1 the
>> steroids have had dreadful side-effects and they're removed from the game.
>
>This all uncannily foreshadows the Depeche Mode disco rules of the
>Wulfen...
roll a d6 at the beginning of every turn.. on a roll of ! the unit of
Wulfen do nothing for the turn because they decided to break out the
"Dance Dance Revolution" game
Mikael
Blackheart posted furiously:
I thought they were evil Chaos Marines? Then it's be Britney's Dance
Beat.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
Yes, but I can see a man on a horse doing fast cavalry things, but not a
lizard on a bigger lizard. The image of Cold One fast cavalry is so
wrong.
Mikael
Bowles posted furiously:
> In article <3e8ac3df$0$16256$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Samuel Campbell"
> <mani...@Im.an.Atheiest.Cunt.optushome.com.au> writes:
>
> >> I've seen them live as well, and I still think they're pants. And even if
> >> they weren't, they'd still be much too 40K for my tastes.
> >>
> >40k - WTF?
>
> I think he means the ludicrously exaggerated Tyranid head crest on the Saurus
> (and indeed the carnosaur, which disappoints me not because of its quality, but
> because it looks nothing at all like a predatory dinosaur). The Skinks still
> look more like fantasy Kroot than Hormagaunts, though, and the chameleon skinks
> are just poorly-modelled; the style's fine.
FWIW, I think the whole range looks like poor-quality Aliens/Tyranids. If
I want rubbish like that, I'll buy plastic Nids.
> IMHO they are better than the previous lot of lizardmen which I
> >abhorred.
>
> I'd compare as follows, on the standard 1-5 scale:
>
<snip>
> Saurus Warriors: 1 (I honestly can't see anything to like). Old version 2-2.5
Truly horrendous models.
<snip>
> So, of those I've seen, this is a long way of saying that, Skinks and Slann
> aside, I preferred the old models, even though the old range was universally
> pretty poor. I think a lot could have been done to improve the models while
> retaining the style.
Absolutely. I wish they'd stuck with the overall look of the old army but
simply made better models. Now we have Hive Fleet Tenochtitlan.
P Bowles
writes:
>In article <20030402083452...@mb-fz.aol.com>, a sleeping P
>Bowles posted furiously:
>> In article <MPG.18f4ca564...@news.inet.fi>, Mikael
><mik...@ci5.gov>
>> writes:
>>
>> >> I'm also
>> >> thinking of the possibilities of converting new Skinks to ride old Cold
>> >Ones -
>> >> being closer to human or Dark Elf size, they shouldn't look as clumsily
>> >> 'stuck-on' as Tichi-Huichi and co.
>> >
>> >That could work, really. I just think the idea of Cold One fast cavalry
>> >is ridiculous.
>>
>> Well, this is an M8 unit. Fast cavalry has more to do with the riders'
>training
>> and equipment than the nature of the mount, though - after all, some
>horsemen
>> are fast cavalry and others aren't.
>
>Yes, but I can see a man on a horse doing fast cavalry things, but not a
>lizard on a bigger lizard.
No different from a mammal on a bigger mammal... Cold Ones look nothing like
Lizardmen past or present - and neither Lizardmen nor Cold Ones bear any
resemblance at all to lizards...
BTW I've finally seen Saurus and assembled Skinks in the flesh. The Skinks
aren't much bigger than the old ones, and the eyes and scales are fine after
all. I still prefer the fully-amphibious look, but as was pointed out to me
Skinks have always had the 'scaly skin' rule, which only makes sense if they
do, in fact, have scales. Might have worked better if they wore scale armour
(as they carry scale shields) rather than growing scales themselves, though.
The Saurus have been the victim of the usual threefold GW marketing strategy -
first, assemble them in the worst poses imaginable (say, holding their shields
across their chests). Second, paint them in the most glaringly unpleasant
paintscheme you can think of. Thirdly, take a photograph for WD from the least
flattering angle possible - in this case from above, giving the impression that
they were rather squat with hugely exaggerated crests.
In reality, they are far from perfect - they aren't squat and their crests are
fairly sensible in size, but the result looks more like a Tyranid than ever.
The fangs are still appalling and the belly area is completely devoid of
detail. But they're still an improvement over the pictures I've now seen of
Temple Guard, and mostly they're fairly well-executed - even the shields and
odd weapons.
Philip Bowles
WEBSTERR
Especially when compared to the new Beastmen, which I happen to think are
fantastic.
Mike
K Markus Viljanen
>>
>> That could work, really. I just think the idea of Cold One fast cavalry
>> is ridiculous.
>
> Well, this is an M8 unit.
So are all Bretonnian Knights. I too think that the idea of lumbering
carnivores suffering from Stupidity being Fast Cavalry is beyond silly.
> Fast cavalry has more to do with the riders' training and equipment than
> the nature of the mount, though - after all, some horsemen are fast
> cavalry and others aren't.
Yes, but historically there were very few camel or donkey riding Fast
Cavalry (or Light Horse as for example DBM calls them) and almost all of
them were considered inferior to horse versions. In addition, most of the
Light Horse were made of smaller horses, for instance Hobilars, Mongols,
Ancient Brits' ponies, etc.
Blackheart
only units with Mark of Slaanesh get to do Britney's stripper
routines...
P Bowles
>>> is ridiculous.
>>
>> Well, this is an M8 unit.
>
>So are all Bretonnian Knights.
And Squires...In fact, every non-barded horse/Elven Steed unit in the game is
Fast Cavalry except Skeleton Heavy Cavalry.
I too think that the idea of lumbering
>carnivores suffering from Stupidity being Fast Cavalry is beyond silly.
Siller than dead horses or dead dogs being Fast Cavalry? For that matter, show
me the living wolf that can outrun a horse - yet not only are they fast
cavalry, they have M9.
>Yes, but historically there were very few camel or donkey riding Fast
>Cavalry
And even fewer wolf-riding or dead horse-riding ones.
(or Light Horse as for example DBM calls them)
There are very few camel-riding Light Horse? Well, fancy that...
Raptors aren't really comparable in this regard because they're bipeds with a
different method of locomotion.
Philip Bowles
K Markus Viljanen
>>>
>>> Well, this is an M8 unit.
>>
>> So are all Bretonnian Knights.
>
> And Squires...In fact, every non-barded horse/Elven Steed unit in the
> game is Fast Cavalry except Skeleton Heavy Cavalry.
And do I find this stupid? You bet. I was mightily pissed off when they
removed nearly all the cool encumbrance modifiers to movement they still
had in 3rd ed WFB, although not probably as pissed off as my Dwarf-playing
friend who tore his beard out with his own teeth.
Why does heavy infantry move as quickly as unarmoured infantry? What is
the point of heavy cavalry being as fast "fast" cavalry? Because the kids
wouldn't handle moving an unit 3½ inches instead of 4? Thank dog they
didn't do the 40k-esque "everyone moves 6 inches", even Squa... oops.
>> I too think that the idea of lumbering carnivores suffering from
>> Stupidity being Fast Cavalry is beyond silly.
>
> Siller than dead horses or dead dogs being Fast Cavalry?
Hey, they're so much beyond realism anyway that I won't mind them =P
> For that matter, show me the living wolf that can outrun a horse - yet
> not only are they fast cavalry, they have M9.
Actually, it's not that far off. Grey wolf can reach about 40 mph while a
good (ridden) race horse reaches about 45 mph. For some reason I can only
find unridden speeds for wolves...
Besides, we are talking about fantasy giant wolves here.
>> Yes, but historically there were very few camel or donkey riding Fast
>> Cavalry
>
> And even fewer wolf-riding or dead horse-riding ones.
Okay, I get the point ;-)
>> (or Light Horse as for example DBM calls them)
>
> There are very few camel-riding Light Horse? Well, fancy that...
That was mainly due to the lack of suitable saddles. Ever tried working
leather with hooves? Actually, don't answer that.
> Raptors aren't really comparable in this regard because they're bipeds
> with a different method of locomotion.
Let's find something comparable... what if pygmys had ridden ostrichs to
combat? I bet they are not as fast as a horse. And the mounts wouldn't
even need water, they would be excellent long-range scouts.
Insane Ranter
"K Markus Viljanen" <mkvi...@cs.Hellsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:b6kf60$p4u$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> P Bowles <pbo...@aol.com> wrote:
> > For that matter, show me the living wolf that can outrun a horse - yet
> > not only are they fast cavalry, they have M9.
>
> Actually, it's not that far off. Grey wolf can reach about 40 mph while a
> good (ridden) race horse reaches about 45 mph. For some reason I can only
> find unridden speeds for wolves...
>
> Besides, we are talking about fantasy giant wolves here.
Well wolves hunt in a manner of chase and keep up close enough, let the prey
tire itself out, then attack....Unless of course they can catch it on a
sprint like they would many over weight Americans.
Insane Ranter
> Raptors aren't really comparable in this regard because they're bipeds
with a
> different method of locomotion.
And Raptors are flying animals...And do the tradtional bird hopping motion
while on the ground. Not really a suitable attacking movement.. Flying would
be better.
Cold Ones could be classified as Dromaeosaurids. And the idea that they
would be slow stupid animals could be said to be a mistake on GW part.
P Bowles
<mkvi...@cs.Hellsinki.fi> writes:
>> And Squires...In fact, every non-barded horse/Elven Steed unit in the
>> game is Fast Cavalry except Skeleton Heavy Cavalry.
>
>And do I find this stupid? You bet.
The lack of a barding modifier for High Elves and Brets is certainly nonsense -
especially as it was made explicit in the 5th Ed book that High Elf ithilmar
barding caused encumbrance due to the awkwardness of moving while barded,
regardless of the weight.
I was mightily pissed off when they
>removed nearly all the cool encumbrance modifiers to movement they still
>had in 3rd ed WFB,
-1 shield/heavy armour, -1 barding seemed fine - the speed of knights with only
one modifier is really too fast, allowing first-turn charges on small boards in
some cases.
>Why does heavy infantry move as quickly as unarmoured infantry? What is
>the point of heavy cavalry being as fast "fast" cavalry?
Fast cavalry is a misnomer - it is, as you pointed out, *Light* Horse,
referring to the equipment and role of the riders rather than their speed. The
extra manoeuvrability and the lack of the barding modifier does give them an
edge in mobility.
Because the kids
>wouldn't handle moving an unit 3½ inches instead of 4?
No, because the redshirts couldn't...
>>> I too think that the idea of lumbering carnivores suffering from
>>> Stupidity being Fast Cavalry is beyond silly.
>>
>> Siller than dead horses or dead dogs being Fast Cavalry?
>
>Hey, they're so much beyond realism anyway that I won't mind them =P
I see, dinosaur-riders are just on the verge of realism, then?
>> For that matter, show me the living wolf that can outrun a horse - yet
>> not only are they fast cavalry, they have M9.
>
>Actually, it's not that far off. Grey wolf can reach about 40 mph while a
>good (ridden) race horse reaches about 45 mph.
Yet the wolf is still faster in WFB, even when it's dead.
For some reason I can only
>find unridden speeds for wolves...
Goblins became extinct before anyone thought to make a comparison.
>Besides, we are talking about fantasy giant wolves here.
Well, as fantasy giant horses (Elven Steeds) are faster than 'real' ones, and
one is faster still, I suppose that's fair.
>> Raptors aren't really comparable in this regard because they're bipeds
>> with a different method of locomotion.
>
>Let's find something comparable... what if pygmys had ridden ostrichs to
>combat? I bet they are not as fast as a horse.
Actually, they are - they have a maximum speed of 44mph, and they haven't even
been bred for it.
http://mbgnet.mobot.org/sets/grasslnd/animals/ostrich.htm
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<n...@spam.net> writes:
>"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20030404100125...@mb-fb.aol.com...
>> Raptors aren't really comparable in this regard because they're bipeds
>with a
>> different method of locomotion.
>
>And Raptors are flying animals...
Not the ones ridden by "Skink Raptor Cavalry", ie the old Cold Ones.
And do the tradtional bird hopping motion
>while on the ground. Not really a suitable attacking movement.. Flying would
>be better.
Computer analyses of birds' flapping motions suggest that they are identical to
the hunting lunge dromaeosaurs would have made.
Philip Bowles
WEBSTERR
-
especially as it was made explicit in the 5th Ed book that High Elf ithilmar
barding caused encumbrance due to the awkwardness of moving while barded,
regardless of the weight."
The reason for the Brets (as explained in their 5th edition book) was because
the horses were bred to carry the extra weight.
Mike
K Markus Viljanen
>
>> I was mightily pissed off when they removed nearly all the cool
>> encumbrance modifiers to movement they still had in 3rd ed WFB,
>
> -1 shield/heavy armour, -1 barding seemed fine
Yes and since the heavy cavalry had a speed of 6" it meant that they
fleed/pursued 2D6" instead of the 3D6" that the light horse did. I thought
that that difference reflected really well the better ability of the less
heavily armoured cavalry to break off from combat.
> the speed of knights with only one modifier is really too fast, allowing
> first-turn charges on small boards in some cases.
Agree.
> Fast cavalry is a misnomer - it is, as you pointed out, *Light* Horse,
> referring to the equipment and role of the riders rather than their
> speed.
Yeah and even if some of the Light Horse had as much armour and other
equipment as some light lancers, they were still more manoeuvrable simply
because they fought in loose formation, i.e. were skirmishers.
> The extra manoeuvrability and the lack of the barding modifier does give
> them an edge in mobility.
I think that the old 6" vs. 8" was a better ratio than the current
difference, but perhaps I should just be happy that at least they have
some other differences than saving throw...
>>Let's find something comparable... what if pygmys had ridden ostrichs to
>>combat? I bet they are not as fast as a horse.
>
> Actually, they are - they have a maximum speed of 44mph, and they
> haven't even been bred for it.
> http://mbgnet.mobot.org/sets/grasslnd/animals/ostrich.htm
Damn.
K Markus Viljanen
..which is I think is a rather poor excuse because basically GW is telling
us that:
a) none of the other races know anything about breeding horses/mounts
b) Bretonnian cloth armour is lighter and more finely-woven than anything
the other races can create
P Bowles
(WEBSTERR) writes:
But that's the thing - ithilmar barding is light, but it's still a lot of metal
(or in the case of Bret barding, cloth) flapping around the horse's legs. It's
cumbersome even though it isn't heavy. Amazingly, it's a sensible justification
for the 5th Ed. rule that actually reflected reality. Now I know why they
dropped it...
Philip Bowles