[40Kv3] Codex:Chaos Space Marines Indepth Review(LONG)
Chris Stewart
new Chaos Codex for half prize and got a nice little key chain to boot.
To quote Chuck D "I opened it and read it and said they were
suckers"...then I realized that I was the sucker having paid money for
it...
So picking through the list in no particular order...we come across
the "There Can Be Only One" <Queen music plays in the background> rule.
So either a Deamon Prince or a Chaos Lord. No contest, the Lord is way
better than the Prince in so many ways. Power armour vs. the death
sentence that is the 5+ invulnerable save, the ability to get wargear
and a retinue make the chaos lord the only choice.
Sorcerer's Stats suck in comparison to their loyal marine
counterpart the Librarian. Less attacks and wounds. But the Doom Bolt is
very nice indeed as are the other powers and all are superior to the
lone librarian power. So I guess it's a fair trade off.
Greater Deamons are a shadow of their former selves (v2 selves that
is). But so is everything else in the game so I can live with it. I will
only use a Greater Deamon on rare occasions, like when I field my Khorne
Berserker army at it's maximum strength. I seem to be one of the few
people here who actually likes the Possession rule...but since I plan
having on a whole lot of Aspiring Champions (can you say a whole retinue
of them?) to roll for before my Lord has to take the hit I'm not too
concerned. I also think Fearsome is a perfect rule for these hulking
beasts. I don't care who you are, If a Bloodthirster eats six of your
mates and then starts sizing you up for desert your gonna shit yourself
and run. My gaming group has already adopted this rule for Hive Tyrants
and Carnifexes. Once again the horrid 5+ invulnerable save is present.
Terminator's. At first the inability to get two heavy weapons in
terminator squads bothered me allot, especially considering that out of
15 terminators in my old army 5 of them were packin' serious heat. So
now I have a few extra terminators that will need new arms or I'm gonna
have to buy a shite-load of new terminators...maby enough to rival my
friend's all Deathwing army...I think not. Combi-weapons suck...ho-hum.
I see very little use for Veterans under the new rules. Some people
I've talked to seem to think that them being available as Troop
selections to Unmarked Lords means that we wont see any basic chaos
marines in many armies. Who can say. Infiltration for three points and
the ability to get two heavy or special weapons does make them
appealing.
Possessed Chaos Marines are very cool. With variable abilities that
kick ass and the fact that they were missing from the 2nd edition codex
means I can't wait to add to a full squad of them to my legion.
The cults are back more or less as in 2nd edition with some major
changes and a few additions.
Plague Marines...is there any troop better for capturing and holding
a objective? I think not. the new Blight Grenades are gonna piss off
allot of Dark Eldar and Blood Angel players. I'm already working on my
Nurgle infested Rhino to transport my Plague Marine squad.
Thousand Sons. If they make a really nice plastic kit for these guys
I'll get a squad to act as a bodyguard for Ahirmain when I use him. Well
balanced advantages and drawbacks. Rapid Fire all the time, can't make
assaults, probably gonna be harder to kill than plague marines. So maybe
these guys have the pussy one's beat...but the won't smell as nice.
Berserkers are pretty good. It's too bad they lost their Furious
Charge and Chaos Armour but I understand the reasons. I was actually
expecting them to have a Str of 5 and lose the extra attack. I'm pleased
with the way it came out.
Noise Marines...why bother? i like the miniatures and may get a
squad for completeness sake but I can't see myself ever using them on
the Battlefield
Obliterators are the newest additions to the Cult of Cults. The
powergamer deep inside me loves the rules, the artist in me hates the
miniatures. The plan here is to make my own...take a plastic skeleton
and add guns until done. At first I couldn't see any justification for
them in terms of the background (fluff) but then, realizing that I had
to add some to my Black legion I found some. Techmarines...where did all
the traitor techmarines go? Ofcourse!!! They became Obliterators! So
with my background justification in place I will have my obliterators!
Raptors. Do they qualify as a Cult? Sure why not. I'll get a squad
as it seems that the new rules make having jump pack equipped troops a
necessity.
I don't have much to say about the deamons other than I don't mind
the summoning rules, I don't mind the generic differences between the
different powers. What happened to the Horrors? Pink Blue? Nope they
just breath fire now...I think Beasts of Nurgle move to fast.
Juggernaughts are awesome! What should have been called Bloodcrushers at
45 pts. each these bad boys are a steal. 4 Attacks, Strength of 5, 2
Wounds, Toughness 6...nuff said.
The rest of the list doesn't need to be gone into. marines are like
marines, overall less heavy weapons than loyal marines, but the
obliterators make up for it.
As expected there is a bit of cross over with the Loyal Marines,
with chaos lacking in the more advanced equipment but making up for
with...Spikey Bits? Why does this sound something that belongs in the
Ork codex? The new gifts are pretty much as expected.
Befitting Chaos the special characters are the most powerful yet.
But their cost reflects this. Abbadon is 240pts. alone. the cheapest is
Fabius Bile at 114, add in a bodyguard of the ugliest miniatures in the
Citadel range and you can easily add another 200+. Mn what were they
thinking when they approved the production of those big headed, nasty
ass face havin', butt munchin'...somebody please cut Shane Hoyle's hands
off so he can not offend my eyes again. I've seen better work come out
of Enigma (oh now that was not necessary).
Most of the fluff is direct from the 2ed. Chaos Codex re-phrased to
go along with GW's new Narrative style of presenting background. I only
briefly skimmed the fluff having memorized the previous edition.
So to wrap up this long post (those of you who read the whole thing
should really get a life). At first I was less than impressed. But after
going over the new list in depth and taking into account the new system
I would reconsider my position as a sucker. Infact when compared to the
two other that are released, having access to both of them. I would
say that Chaos stands out as the best yet. Not because they are the most
powerful, but because the list is carefully balanced with enough
drawbacks to counteract the general kick ass nature of a Chaos Marine.
Good troops=astronomical price. what other army has a 60pt. troop in it.
And now for my ulterior motive for posting...
What does the collective at large here think of Master-Crafting an Axe
of Khorne for an Exhalted Champion. I feel that one who has attained the
position as one of Khornes favored would be given the honour of carrying
a weapon in quality above even that of your average gift. Anything to
make the blood flow better eh. My friend has accused me of powergaming,
but I see it as a way of giving my General a weapon that is special and
unique. there is no rule that forbids the Master-Crafting of Gifts, the
only restriction is that you can only master-craft a weapon...and the
Axe of Khorne is defiantly a weapon.
Thanks for your Time
GROOT
Blank Dave
>powergamer deep inside me loves the rules, the artist in me hates the
>miniatures. The plan here is to make my own...take a plastic skeleton
>and add guns until done.
When I showed a friemd the pics of them, he referred to them as "Terminator
of Borg."
>Mn what were they
>thinking when they approved the production of those big headed, nasty
>ass face havin', butt munchin'...somebody please cut Shane Hoyle's hands
>off so he can not offend my eyes again. I've seen better work come out
>of Enigma (oh now that was not necessary).
That's just plain mean.
Blank Dave
I had to fight my way to the top of the food chain, to become a vegetarian?
Jupe1955
>going over the new list in depth and taking into account the new system
>I would reconsider my position as a sucker.
The editing detracts from the value of the book but in general I agree. I do
think there should have been more done with the differences between the demons,
but I can live with what was done.
>What does the collective at large here think of Master-Crafting an Axe
>of Khorne for an Exhalted Champion.
I would not be happy with an opponent master-crafting a gift but would let you
do it. I suspect after a few games you will need to adjust the point value of
the weapon. An offer to increase the point cost first would increase my
willingness to allow it. Maybe a jump of 10 points?
Jupe
Dirk Vormann
> What does the collective at large here think of Master-Crafting an Axe
> of Khorne for an Exhalted Champion. I feel that one who has attained the
> position as one of Khornes favored would be given the honour of carrying
> a weapon in quality above even that of your average gift. Anything to
> make the blood flow better eh. My friend has accused me of powergaming,
> but I see it as a way of giving my General a weapon that is special and
> unique. there is no rule that forbids the Master-Crafting of Gifts, the
> only restriction is that you can only master-craft a weapon...and the
> Axe of Khorne is defiantly a weapon.
Sorry, but it's defined as a Gift, not as a Weapon. That answers the
question.
Consider: You may carry a bolter, bolt pistol and axe of khorne if you
want to!
DV
It is theoretically impossible; they did it.
Sahryx
well a mini-codex it is by the time they are all out (if ever):
Wordbearers - gone .. nothing more than a referenced paint scheme. They
have lost their distinction as the only CSM to still have chaplains.
Astral Claws - also gone, with no reference, fluff, nada.
I can only guess that these two things were dropped since there are no
figures sculpted for them (ie chaos chaplains, Huron Blackheart) which is
too bad. If I did not know any better I'd swear that 40KV3 was an attempt
to dupe the players into being lazy, forgetting how to convert, and solely
be at the whim for GW to produce 'official' miniatures for you to play
with. Forget individual thought / style - guess we are not qualified.
However, on a positive note .. I was interested by the information on
Fallen Angels in that they really are not chaos space marines like the
others except that they have the same profile and armament as veterans
(they could have been this way before, but I do not remember).
But the more I dwell on it the more negative things creep in like -
Sorcerers may not take a body guard of Thousand Sons (only the main lord
can) though you can seem to form a squad on its own and just add it too
it.
I also could have sworn that Ahriman had some sort of spell to recover /
summon fallen Thousand Sons like the LotD Sergeant, but I cannot find any
reference now either in v2 or v3.
Enough rambling - some stray thoughts.
Frank
wrote:
>Personally I am irritated by several factors, though time will tell how
>well a mini-codex it is by the time they are all out (if ever):
>Wordbearers - gone .. nothing more than a referenced paint scheme. They
>have lost their distinction as the only CSM to still have chaplains.
....not that there were any RULES for Chaos Chaplains in 2nd
Edition or anything. That always pissed me off, they went ahead and
had Chaos Chaplains, but still couldn't have Crozius Arcanums. They
were just Chaos Lords who you purchased Fields for.
>Astral Claws - also gone, with no reference, fluff, nada.
OK, did you play Astral Claws?
>I can only guess that these two things were dropped since there are no
>figures sculpted for them (ie chaos chaplains, Huron Blackheart) which is
>too bad. If I did not know any better I'd swear that 40KV3 was an attempt
>to dupe the players into being lazy, forgetting how to convert, and solely
>be at the whim for GW to produce 'official' miniatures for you to play
>with. Forget individual thought / style - guess we are not qualified.
You mean the way they allow the use of non-terminator
Thunderhammers, with the caveat that you must do it yourself (which I
did, btw)? Or the way that the rules give you the option of putting
axes of khorne onto your aspiring champions?
>However, on a positive note .. I was interested by the information on
>Fallen Angels in that they really are not chaos space marines like the
>others except that they have the same profile and armament as veterans
>(they could have been this way before, but I do not remember).
Fallen Angels used to be only a special item which fell on you
if you believed in Cypher.
>But the more I dwell on it the more negative things creep in like -
>Sorcerers may not take a body guard of Thousand Sons (only the main lord
>can) though you can seem to form a squad on its own and just add it too
>it.
Only by taking a "Sorceror Lord" can your Sorceror be leading
a bodyguard of Thousand Sons. However, a regular Sorceror can join a
Thousand Son squad normally. It isn't as if there are any special
retinue options available to Thousand Sons models.
>I also could have sworn that Ahriman had some sort of spell to recover /
>summon fallen Thousand Sons like the LotD Sergeant, but I cannot find any
>reference now either in v2 or v3.
It's a special character: Who cares? You can't play with them
anyway, so what does it matter what they can or can not do?
>Enough rambling - some stray thoughts.
Frank
Pertti Rassi
says...
>
>> Obliterators are the newest additions to the Cult of Cults. The
>>powergamer deep inside me loves the rules, the artist in me hates the
>>miniatures. The plan here is to make my own...take a plastic skeleton
>>and add guns until done.
>
>of Borg."
>>thinking when they approved the production of those big headed, nasty
>>ass face havin', butt munchin'...somebody please cut Shane Hoyle's hands
>>off so he can not offend my eyes again. I've seen better work come out
>>of Enigma (oh now that was not necessary).
>
>
I think I field Fabius alone or with Berzerker termies
Sahryx Shadowthorn
Frank <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On 26 Feb 99 04:51:54 GMT, sah...@removethisspam.bga.com (Sahryx)
>wrote:
>>have lost their distinction as the only CSM to still have chaplains.
>
> ....not that there were any RULES for Chaos Chaplains in 2nd
>Edition or anything. That always pissed me off, they went ahead and
>had Chaos Chaplains, but still couldn't have Crozius Arcanums. They
>were just Chaos Lords who you purchased Fields for.
Well they might have had something had they ever actually made them - I
think we are on the same wavelength in terms of irritation with these
details though.
>
>>Astral Claws - also gone, with no reference, fluff, nada.
>
> OK, did you play Astral Claws?
Caught me! No I haven't - I do realize now after skimming that they are
just unloyal Ultramarines (cannot remember if they upgrade with
chaos/demons for more cost than usual though now). I think the reason I
kinda like them is this: You can take a 10 man squad of marines and
paint them each a different chapter kinda like a crusader army all in
one unit. Then if your opponent was willing and you were new to the
hobby, you could designate the one with the appropriate color scheme as
what army you were using - basically being able to experiment with the
various marine armies to figure out what you wanted to play. If it did
not pan out, you could paint a red X over the chapter badge and voila
instant Red Corsaires and you lost almost no time in converting them to
chaos. I just thought this was a cool notion, though currently only 4
chapter colors make a difference.
> You mean the way they allow the use of non-terminator
>Thunderhammers, with the caveat that you must do it yourself (which I
>did, btw)? Or the way that the rules give you the option of putting
>axes of khorne onto your aspiring champions?
Here again I have been too busy painting to do more than skim the new
rules - but I do recall seeing some thread about a sergeant on a bike
using a thunderhammer based off it having termie honors. While I have
not read the rule book close enough to find out how this loop hole came
about, I have philosophical belief that termie weapons are for termies -
period - with the exception being a storm bolter since it is basically
an improved combi- bolter/bolter in idea, a belief analogous to your
disuse of characters :). If you could, would you refer me to where are
allowed this choice of gear? I'll look up the rules in the book / codex
when I get home (TIA), but back to quibbling - the notion that being
able to take a T-hammer on a non-termie is like the Space Wolf wording
of heavy weapons in its ability to be abused. Until I come across it, it
seems more like a typo or oversight to me and not in the spirit. I look
forward to getting this information from you.
And actually the converting mini-rant was also including some aspects I
did not specify like having obsolete units that were created from
conversions - scouts with heavy weapons other than HB/ML/AC, certain
heavies in tach squads (more of a painting thing though), eldar scouts
with close combat weapons, etc. My irritation from these things spilled
over into the rant, but you had no way of knowing this really. My bad.
> Only by taking a "Sorceror Lord" can your Sorceror be leading
>a bodyguard of Thousand Sons. However, a regular Sorceror can join a
>Thousand Son squad normally. It isn't as if there are any special
>retinue options available to Thousand Sons models.
Again here something I thought I remember reading somewhere - the whole
point of the thread I thought being to point out changes (hey I cannot
help it if I am too dimwitted to remember - pity me, please) ;^)
> It's a special character: Who cares? You can't play with them
>anyway, so what does it matter what they can or can not do?
True if you opponent does not let you, and while I would not hinge my
army around them, after paying the bucks for them and painting them up
nicely seems kinda a shame to *never* use them. Once in a blue moon /
campaigns / or scenarious agreed to before hand - surely you would not
mind that?
>Frank
--
----- sah...@bga.com
Frank
Shadowthorn) wrote:
>In article <36d61cea...@enews.newsguy.com>,
>Frank <rit...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>On 26 Feb 99 04:51:54 GMT, sah...@removethisspam.bga.com (Sahryx)
>>wrote:
>>>Wordbearers - gone .. nothing more than a referenced paint scheme. They
>>>have lost their distinction as the only CSM to still have chaplains.
>> ....not that there were any RULES for Chaos Chaplains in 2nd
>>Edition or anything. That always pissed me off, they went ahead and
>>had Chaos Chaplains, but still couldn't have Crozius Arcanums. They
>>were just Chaos Lords who you purchased Fields for.
>Well they might have had something had they ever actually made them - I
>think we are on the same wavelength in terms of irritation with these
>details though.
Yes. It drove me batty that the:
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
and Night Lords
All had "advantages" that had no game mechanical effect. All
it really meant to be those people was that they lacked the neat
equipment the codex granted to the World Eaters, Emperor's Children,
Thousand Sons, and Death Guard.
(Noting that the Alpha Legion could reasonably expect to have
Plague Marines or Khorne Berserkers , as could Black Legion).
>> You mean the way they allow the use of non-terminator
>>Thunderhammers, with the caveat that you must do it yourself (which I
>>did, btw)? Or the way that the rules give you the option of putting
>>axes of khorne onto your aspiring champions?
>Here again I have been too busy painting to do more than skim the new
>rules - but I do recall seeing some thread about a sergeant on a bike
>using a thunderhammer based off it having termie honors. While I have
>not read the rule book close enough to find out how this loop hole came
>about, I have philosophical belief that termie weapons are for termies -
>period - with the exception being a storm bolter since it is basically
>an improved combi- bolter/bolter in idea, a belief analogous to your
>disuse of characters :). If you could, would you refer me to where are
>allowed this choice of gear? I'll look up the rules in the book / codex
>when I get home (TIA), but back to quibbling - the notion that being
>able to take a T-hammer on a non-termie is like the Space Wolf wording
>of heavy weapons in its ability to be abused. Until I come across it, it
>seems more like a typo or oversight to me and not in the spirit. I look
>forward to getting this information from you.
Under the new rules Thunder Hammers have been reduced to a
standard one handed weapon, just like a power fist. The only piece of
"Terminators Only" wargear is the Chain Fist.
>> Only by taking a "Sorceror Lord" can your Sorceror be leading
>>a bodyguard of Thousand Sons. However, a regular Sorceror can join a
>>Thousand Son squad normally. It isn't as if there are any special
>>retinue options available to Thousand Sons models.
>Again here something I thought I remember reading somewhere - the whole
>point of the thread I thought being to point out changes (hey I cannot
>help it if I am too dimwitted to remember - pity me, please) ;^)
OK.
Frank
> ----- sah...@bga.com