40K 3RD Edition Information!!!
Dante
After recently talking to a friend of mine, who has been
working at Games Workshop for the past couple years, I finally have
some definite info about the new 40k.
First of all, Chaos is going to be toned down A LOT. Mainly
the special rules for Chaos, like the addition armor saves and
toughness characteristics will be taken out. So Chaos will be more
balanced with the other races. Guess all those people complaining
about chaos cheese finally got to GW :)
Also new is the way they are changing psykers. Not only will
players choose their powers (no more random card drawings) but the
powers will cost points. So you are actually buying your powers, much
like wargear. This way you can build a psyker that has specific
powers, like a chief librarian with vortex, smite, purge psyker, and
teleportation. Pyschic powers will be playing a large part in the new
40k.
The last MAJOR change is that vehicles will be much cheaper,
so tanks and other vehicles will play a larger role. There will also
be super heavy tanks (like the shadow sword from Epic) in 40k scale
now. He didn't say so, but I have a feeling they will put Titans in
too (probably just so they will get lots of money, instead of people
buying armorcast models).
There are a few other changes, like see-through plastic
templates to make blast markers easier to work out, and just one big
rule book, not a rule book, wargear book, dark millenium, etc...
Hope this makes everyone happy, I'll post more if I hear
anything else I didn't mention yet.
DANTE
CPMcSwane
cheese. Hope they direct their attention where it is so badly needed (i.e.
closing the loopholes that unscrupulous players tend to use so frequently).
Olcglas
> After recently talking to a friend of mine, who has been
>working at Games Workshop for the past couple years, I finally have
>some definite info about the new 40k.
> First of all, Chaos is going to be toned down A LOT. Mainly
>the special rules for Chaos, like the addition armor saves and
>toughness characteristics will be taken out. So Chaos will be more
>balanced with the other races. Guess all those people complaining
>about chaos cheese finally got to GW :)
This was not in evidence at the trial batrep which the list got...Berserkers
are definitely powered-up, for one thing.
> Also new is the way they are changing psykers. Not only will
>players choose their powers (no more random card drawings) but the
>powers will cost points. So you are actually buying your powers, much
>like wargear. This way you can build a psyker that has specific
>powers, like a chief librarian with vortex, smite, purge psyker, and
>teleportation. Pyschic powers will be playing a large part in the new
>40k.
The buying powers, si; as for a "large part"...the enormous cost relative to
other things on the game will deter some people (vortex is great, but when it
costs as much as a squad of marines, you may not want it).
> The last MAJOR change is that vehicles will be much cheaper,
>so tanks and other vehicles will play a larger role. There will also
>be super heavy tanks (like the shadow sword from Epic) in 40k scale
>now. He didn't say so, but I have a feeling they will put Titans in
>too (probably just so they will get lots of money, instead of people
>buying armorcast models).
Actually, their line of large models will be non-official.
> There are a few other changes, like see-through plastic
>templates to make blast markers easier to work out, and just one big
>rule book, not a rule book, wargear book, dark millenium, etc...
Yup.
> Hope this makes everyone happy, I'll post more if I hear
>anything else I didn't mention yet.
>
Beneath, what angels are at work? What powers
Prepare the secret of the fatal hours?
See! the mists tremble, and the clouds are stirred:
When comes the calling word? - Lionel Johnson, 1867-1902
Joe Schulte
: > After recently talking to a friend of mine, who has been
: >working at Games Workshop for the past couple years, I finally have
: >some definite info about the new 40k.
: > First of all, Chaos is going to be toned down A LOT. Mainly
: >the special rules for Chaos, like the addition armor saves and
: >toughness characteristics will be taken out. So Chaos will be more
: >balanced with the other races. Guess all those people complaining
: >about chaos cheese finally got to GW :)
: This was not in evidence at the trial batrep which the list got...Berserkers
: are definitely powered-up, for one thing.
Huh? Are you saying they need to BE powered up? If so, I agree. Neat figs,
shitty profiles.
: > Also new is the way they are changing psykers. Not only will
: >players choose their powers (no more random card drawings) but the
: >powers will cost points. So you are actually buying your powers, much
: >like wargear. This way you can build a psyker that has specific
: >powers, like a chief librarian with vortex, smite, purge psyker, and
: >teleportation. Pyschic powers will be playing a large part in the new
: >40k.
: The buying powers, si; as for a "large part"...the enormous cost relative to
: other things on the game will deter some people (vortex is great, but when it
: costs as much as a squad of marines, you may not want it).
But it works the other way, too. Vortex is great, especially when combined
with someone who can teleport and use [fill in blanks here for unkillable
death machine].
-Mer "Ain't nothin can't be broke" idian
IcyPulp
>: >the special rules for Chaos, like the addition armor saves and
>: >toughness characteristics will be taken out. So Chaos will be more
>: >balanced with the other races. Guess all those people complaining
>: >about chaos cheese finally got to GW :)
Two Words: Space Wolves...
MRamos7
>
>Two Words: Space Wolves...
>
One Word Chaos
BEltringha
I think people that complain alot about Chaos armies should really try
playing them. In my experience it is extremely hard to win with a Chaos army.
The troops are expensive, lack mobility, accuracy,flexibility, and
stalwartness of the loyalist marines. They have advantages and disadvantages
like every army, but they are by no means "cheesy". Those super powered
characters that everyone likes to complain about cost alot of points and if you
ever want to recoup their value you must committ them immediately. From that
point there are inumerable ways of dealing with the monster characters. In my
experience those who complain about Chaos in general, Abbadon is very powerful
for his point cost but so are all specials, are those who have never had to
design and play a Chaos army. When I use my Space Marine army I win about twice
as often as with my Chaos army,even when I lose the point totals are usually
much closer than with my Chaos army. Against a good player that uses his armies
advantages against your armies weaknesses it is hard to win with Chaos.
RONALD P BONYAK
BEltringha wrote in message
<199809061812...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
One Word Chaos
No offense, but maybe your not as good with Chaos, or maybe the other
players dont have armies prepared to fight Chaos.
Kemnitzer,Trollman
>>One Word Chaos
>
> I think people that complain alot about Chaos armies should really try
>playing them. In my experience it is extremely hard to win with a Chaos army.
>The troops are expensive, lack mobility, accuracy,flexibility, and
>stalwartness of the loyalist marines. They have advantages and disadvantages
>like every army, but they are by no means "cheesy". Those super powered
>characters that everyone likes to complain about cost alot of points and if you
>ever want to recoup their value you must committ them immediately. From that
>point there are inumerable ways of dealing with the monster characters. In my
>experience those who complain about Chaos in general, Abbadon is very powerful
>for his point cost but so are all specials, are those who have never had to
>design and play a Chaos army. When I use my Space Marine army I win about twice
>as often as with my Chaos army,even when I lose the point totals are usually
>much closer than with my Chaos army. Against a good player that uses his armies
>advantages against your armies weaknesses it is hard to win with Chaos.
I frequently disagree with Beltringha, but in this instance he
is perfectly correct. The Chaos Marines get their choice of cheaper,
crapier marines, or better overpriced marines.
The problem is that the cheap and sleazy marines lose out big
where it hurts. They don't get targeters, or the leadership benefits
of Imperial Space Marines. Those are areas where the Imperials whoop
greatly. IMO, it is not worth the five points you save on regular
Chaos Space Marines. I've seen way too many Chaos Space Marines
actually run away. In fact, since they also don't get veteran
abilities, preachers, or relics, I've seen more Chaos Space Marines
break and run than I have Imperial Guard. That's horrible.
As for the high end Chaos troops, well... they cost even more
than Imperials and die just as dead to heavy weapons fire. A Chaos
army which relies heavily upon its expensive, and really good, high
end, will frequently find itself wiped from the board against Orks or
Guard, early.
The only thing that even remotely frightens me about Chaos
Space Marines is their access to Veteran Space Marines. Infiltrators
with heavy weapons for cheap cannot be denied (with BS 5! They
effectively have targeters). However, I would submit that if the Chaos
Space Marines can cheese out by taking largely veteran armies, why
can't the Imperials cheese out and take a lot of scanners and
Tarantulas?
Frank
BEltringha
>No offense, but maybe your not as good with Chaos, or maybe the other
>players dont have armies prepared to fight Chaos.
>
>
I do play against Eldar 75% of the time. The Eldar have advantages that
match up well aginst chaos weaknesses. Space marines are much more flexible and
can deal with the Eldar better than a Chaos army. I have never lost a batlle
against Orks with my chaos army and have a good win ratio against IG and Nids
with them. I think the problem is that the Eldar player is very good and his
army is hard to counter with Chaos. I also tend to be unlucky and a Space
Marine army is more forgiving of poor dice rolls than a Chaos army.
Brian Schenck
I'm surprised by that. Usually the biggest problem with my Eldar army is
facing Chaos. Typically, because I don't usually have the firepower to
deal with Termie armour, and Noise Marines can do a serious number against
Eldar. Throw in a squad of Infiltrating Veterans, with some sort of
sustained fire weaponry, and a Dread. Then again, Eldar will still
outnumber Chaos, so attrition is usually the only way I can win in the
end. Plus, with the psychics Chaos can get, and the sheer power of Chaos
sorcerers, that phase is out for me as well.
However, you can get a fairly cheap screen in the form of Cultists, so you
can protect your more valuable troops.
What I have found though, is that if my Chaos opponent decides to use a
lot of pricey models (like special Characters), I can usually stop him
without having to lose as many models.
I don't know what tactics you favor, but if they work well against IG and
Orks, a little tweaking should put things more in your favor. Or at least
even out the wins and losses.
Brian D. Schenck
mail to: shr...@wam.umd.edu
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~shrike
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Rishar
> I'm surprised by that. Usually the biggest problem with my Eldar army is
> facing Chaos. Typically, because I don't usually have the firepower to
> deal with Termie armour, and Noise Marines can do a serious number against
> Eldar. Throw in a squad of Infiltrating Veterans, with some sort of
> sustained fire weaponry, and a Dread. Then again, Eldar will still
> outnumber Chaos, so attrition is usually the only way I can win in the
> end. Plus, with the psychics Chaos can get, and the sheer power of Chaos
> sorcerers, that phase is out for me as well.
Heheh. It's exceedingly difficult to overpower a character-heavy Chaos
army in the psychic phase. The last one I used had a level 4 sorceror
(the Flying Hitman), a Keeper of Secrets, and a lvl 2 for the general.
Two lvl 4 psykers and a lvl 2 psyker, and I had all the Tzeentch cards
available to boot. (IMO, the strongest deck in the game in terms of
offensive power.) Needless to say, the biggest psychic problem I had
with this army was opponents refusing to field any psykers whatsoever to
try to cripple me. It yielded mixed results.
My biggest problem against Eldar has been the attrition factor, as you
mentioned. My last army (undergoing renovations to correct this problem
currently) was character-heavy and utilized a lot of veterans; I only
had 22 people on the board at any given time, counting Termies, not
counting the demon. I'd be outnumbered even by SM armies, let alone
Eldar, but I had a high concentration of sustained fire heavy weapons
distributed amongst the vets, with more in the form of autocannons for
the Dreadnought. Even with all this, I had a hard time killing enough
Guardians to make it worthwhile. Coupled with the fact that a
Guardian's offensive punch is similar (if not better) than a Chaos
Marine's, it made for a rough time.
Ironically enough, though, it was the squad-based armies that gave me a
tough time -- you know, the kind that you're SUPPOSED to use, but no one
ever does. Against character- or vehicle-based armies, I had no
problems at all. My sorceror, general, and demon were all capable of
taking out extremely powerful characters and elite units quickly -- in
my last game, my sorceror took out a tooled-up Termie captain general
and his five-Termie bodyguard in two turns without suffering a single
wound. (God bless Pink Fire and Inferno Bolts.) He was chasing down
the SM Dreadnought for another kill when the game ended. When I faced
Eldar cheese armies -- plenty of vehicles and such, lots of Aspect
Warriors and Warlocks -- the games were easy. By-the-book,
true-to-background Eldar armies made me sweat, because while my
expensive characters were in no real danger, they couldn't kill
Guardians quickly enough.
Can a lesson be learned here? I'm trying to learn mine.
> However, you can get a fairly cheap screen in the form of Cultists, so you
> can protect your more valuable troops.
Something I'm looking into. Most of my games are against Whirlwind
enthusiasts, though, so it doesn't make sense to buy screens. I haven't
lost a CSM to a Whirlwind yet in the last few games, but it would make
mincemeat out of Cultists.
> What I have found though, is that if my Chaos opponent decides to use a
> lot of pricey models (like special Characters), I can usually stop him
> without having to lose as many models.
I've had the opposite problem, as I said -- large numbers of screens bog
down my characters to the point of uselessness. The only way I've
managed to pull off wins in this situation is my sorceror -- since he's
riding a disc, he can usually hunt down and kill off opposing characters
and vehicles in large enough numbers to carry the rest of the army.
It's enough to make me want to include another one...
I'll be the first to say, though, that while it's fun (for me, anyway),
it feels wrong. The fact that my entire army, for the most part, digs
in and settles down for a Battletech-style "stand and deliver"
confrontation while my sorceror goes out, fights the battle and wins the
game almost single-handedly (with my squads doing little more than
annoying enemy units and drawing fire away from the sorceror) doesn't
sit well with me. One of these days, he's going to get pasted and I'll
have my ass handed to me. It hasn't happened like that yet, but those
Shield-Breakers make me sweat.
-- Con, bringing you more "Confessions of a Beardy Bastard Who Only
Wants to Win and Cares Nothing of the Spirit of the Game." (Spirit of
the Game? That's the ghost that hides all your dice, right?)
BEltringha
>can protect your more valuable troops.
I never use anything that requires my opponents permission, it has always
seemed a little unfair, considering that the designers didn't think it should
be allowed as a general rule
>Plus, with the psychics Chaos can get, and the sheer power of Chaos
>sorcerers, that phase is out for me as well.
Our psychic house rules allow only a max 2d6 psychic phase which hampers
Chaos more than Eldar. I also never use special characters and tend to play one
marked armies, I like the look of an all plague marine, Thousand Sons, or noise
marine army. It hinders my ability to win but if my primary goal was to win all
the time I would use my Space Marine army which I have a high win ratio with.
The reason for my original post was that calling Chaos "cheesy" is inaccurate.
There are some "cheesy" combinations but every army has those, I have found it
much easier to win with loyalists than Chaos.
Brian Schenck
> Brian Schenck wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised by that. Usually the biggest problem with my Eldar army is
> > facing Chaos. Typically, because I don't usually have the firepower to
> > deal with Termie armour, and Noise Marines can do a serious number against
> > Eldar. Throw in a squad of Infiltrating Veterans, with some sort of
> > sustained fire weaponry, and a Dread. Then again, Eldar will still
> > outnumber Chaos, so attrition is usually the only way I can win in the
> > end. Plus, with the psychics Chaos can get, and the sheer power of Chaos
> > sorcerers, that phase is out for me as well.
>
> Heheh. It's exceedingly difficult to overpower a character-heavy Chaos
> army in the psychic phase. The last one I used had a level 4 sorceror
> (the Flying Hitman), a Keeper of Secrets, and a lvl 2 for the general.
> Two lvl 4 psykers and a lvl 2 psyker, and I had all the Tzeentch cards
> available to boot. (IMO, the strongest deck in the game in terms of
> offensive power.) Needless to say, the biggest psychic problem I had
> with this army was opponents refusing to field any psykers whatsoever to
> try to cripple me. It yielded mixed results.
>
I should say so. Although, using that many Psykers leaves you vulnerable
to placing points in models that aren't always effective outside of one
phase. A well placed Daemonic Attack can take out one of those, and Energy
Drain (?) can always put a hurt on you. Although, I will grant that
inherent strength is pratically insane.
How many points is that anyhow? I'm thinking at least 1000 points for all
of that.
> My biggest problem against Eldar has been the attrition factor, as you
> mentioned. My last army (undergoing renovations to correct this problem
> currently) was character-heavy and utilized a lot of veterans; I only
> had 22 people on the board at any given time, counting Termies, not
> counting the demon. I'd be outnumbered even by SM armies, let alone
> Eldar, but I had a high concentration of sustained fire heavy weapons
> distributed amongst the vets, with more in the form of autocannons for
> the Dreadnought. Even with all this, I had a hard time killing enough
> Guardians to make it worthwhile. Coupled with the fact that a
> Guardian's offensive punch is similar (if not better) than a Chaos
> Marine's, it made for a rough time.
>
Yeah, with enough Guardians (or even Dire Avengers) normal CSMs in Power
Armour don't last too long. Given that the more Guardians the Eldar player
has, the more support weapons he has as well. And Scatter lasers and
Lascannons simply augment that kind of firepower.
> Ironically enough, though, it was the squad-based armies that gave me a
> tough time -- you know, the kind that you're SUPPOSED to use, but no one
> ever does. Against character- or vehicle-based armies, I had no
> problems at all. My sorceror, general, and demon were all capable of
> taking out extremely powerful characters and elite units quickly -- in
> my last game, my sorceror took out a tooled-up Termie captain general
> and his five-Termie bodyguard in two turns without suffering a single
> wound. (God bless Pink Fire and Inferno Bolts.) He was chasing down
> the SM Dreadnought for another kill when the game ended. When I faced
> Eldar cheese armies -- plenty of vehicles and such, lots of Aspect
> Warriors and Warlocks -- the games were easy. By-the-book,
> true-to-background Eldar armies made me sweat, because while my
> expensive characters were in no real danger, they couldn't kill
> Guardians quickly enough.
>
I definitely agree with that. IMO, a good general with a decent,
non-cheesed out, squad based army can easily take on about anyone. Against
the one-trick ponies (credit who for that?), the army might not win. But
that's sort of always been the case.
And unless you play over 3000 points, relying on a few expensive units
will almost always put a hurt on you (especially if you play "Last man
standing" rules).
> Can a lesson be learned here? I'm trying to learn mine.
>
Not sure it's so much a lesson, as dealing with a very effective tactic.
IMO, the only way you can kill off squad based armies with a much smaller
one is to simply sit back and pound the other guy with long range
firepower. I've had my armys decimated from mortars (extremely
underrated) and Dreads equipped for short range anti-personal work. Even
using bare vehicles drops the squad effectiveness some (as you are limited
to anti-armour weapons).
There is an effective way to deal with it, which usually ends up happening
when I face 'Nids. Simply have the range and volume of fire to deal with
being outnumbered.
> > However, you can get a fairly cheap screen in the form of Cultists, so you
> > can protect your more valuable troops.
>
> Something I'm looking into. Most of my games are against Whirlwind
> enthusiasts, though, so it doesn't make sense to buy screens. I haven't
> lost a CSM to a Whirlwind yet in the last few games, but it would make
> mincemeat out of Cultists.
>
Yeah... that's definitely true. I think indirect fire weapons are
seriously overpowered, with the only exception that you have to guess the
first shot. But, field a battery of about 4, and one volley will take care
of most problems.
> > What I have found though, is that if my Chaos opponent decides to use a
> > lot of pricey models (like special Characters), I can usually stop him
> > without having to lose as many models.
>
> I've had the opposite problem, as I said -- large numbers of screens bog
> down my characters to the point of uselessness. The only way I've
> managed to pull off wins in this situation is my sorceror -- since he's
> riding a disc, he can usually hunt down and kill off opposing characters
> and vehicles in large enough numbers to carry the rest of the army.
> It's enough to make me want to include another one...
>
Yeah, Sorcerors on Discs tend to be my biggest problem. I don't rely on
many characters myself, but with Sorcerors, they are a pain in the psychic
phase as well. However, with enough shots from a squad of Guardians, even
the best Sorceror can fall down. Just not easily.
> I'll be the first to say, though, that while it's fun (for me, anyway),
> it feels wrong. The fact that my entire army, for the most part, digs
> in and settles down for a Battletech-style "stand and deliver"
> confrontation while my sorceror goes out, fights the battle and wins the
> game almost single-handedly (with my squads doing little more than
> annoying enemy units and drawing fire away from the sorceror) doesn't
> sit well with me. One of these days, he's going to get pasted and I'll
> have my ass handed to me. It hasn't happened like that yet, but those
> Shield-Breakers make me sweat.
>
The only thing I can think that might be another kind of deterrent to a
Sorceror, is using Wraithguard. Something which I really don't do a lot
of. Without armour saves, the Sorceror is extremely vulnerable. And even
if he gets displaced off the Disc, then he'd get tied up in HtH. Plus, if
he managed to drop a Wraithguard, there's the chance of taking the
Sorceror into the Warp.
Off hand, I'd say there are plenty of ways to deal with a Chaos army using
Eldar, or an Eldar army using Chaos. It's simply that not all the ways are
effective in every given situation.
Brian Schenck
> >you can get a fairly cheap screen in the form of Cultists, so you
> >can protect your more valuable troops.
>
> I never use anything that requires my opponents permission, it has always
> seemed a little unfair, considering that the designers didn't think it should
> be allowed as a general rule
>
I suppose you're right there. However, as a squad of allies, I wouldn't
find it too bad. Then again, not everyone agrees with me on that :)
> >Plus, with the psychics Chaos can get, and the sheer power of Chaos
> >sorcerers, that phase is out for me as well.
>
> Our psychic house rules allow only a max 2d6 psychic phase which hampers
> Chaos more than Eldar. I also never use special characters and tend to play one
> marked armies, I like the look of an all plague marine, Thousand Sons, or noise
> marine army. It hinders my ability to win but if my primary goal was to win all
> the time I would use my Space Marine army which I have a high win ratio with.
> The reason for my original post was that calling Chaos "cheesy" is inaccurate.
> There are some "cheesy" combinations but every army has those, I have found it
> much easier to win with loyalists than Chaos.
>
I would probably agree with you there. Chaos has a lot of neat toys that
no one else can get (Noise Marines and Daemons to name 2), but Imperial
Space Marines have access to a lot of stuff. With being able to take IG
allies and Imperial Agents, ISMs tend to have some nice advantages. I
would also say that they have several weaknesses as well.
Besides, it's not really the army that is cheesy, it's the player. I've
seen ISMs used by at least 6 to 7 different players, and every style is
different. And some were cheesy than others.
Rishar
> I should say so. Although, using that many Psykers leaves you vulnerable
> to placing points in models that aren't always effective outside of one
> phase. A well placed Daemonic Attack can take out one of those, and Energy
> Drain (?) can always put a hurt on you. Although, I will grant that
> inherent strength is pratically insane.
Oh, trust me...Greater Demons and Sorcerors on discs equipped with
Inferno Bolts are quite effective outside the psychic phase. =) That's
where mine tend to do most of their clobbering. I mean, think about
it...after losing a squad of Termies to Inferno Bolts and your assault
squad to a pissed-off KoS, are you REALLY worrying about psychic
abilities? I know I'm not. When I see that demon appear, I'm not
thinking lvl 4 psyker...I'm thinking more along the lines of, "Gun that
sumbitch down before he gets within charge range or it's my ass." If he
appears within charge range (as I try to ensure mine does), it gets even
dicier.
Energy Drain ain't too bad. Daemonic Attack worries me, but not enough
to lose any sleep. I don't expect to see it played on my KoS, after
all, and he accounts for 50% of my psychic muscle.
> How many points is that anyhow? I'm thinking at least 1000 points for all
> of that.
Like I said, this was an extremely character-heavy army conceived as a
testbed for some new ideas. It worked pretty decently, even though it
was inherently flawed, and more importantly it was fun, so I kept it
around for a while. With the general, the Sorceror, the Demon, and
several Aspiring Champs, character expenditure was 998 points, if I
recall correctly. Half the army. As I said, character-heavy. The rest
of it was a Dreadnought, a number of three-man veteran heavy weapons
teams, and a five-man squad of plain vanilla CSM's with a lascannon.
Most of my heavy weapons were autocannons -- this army fought most of
its battles against SM's, and the autocannon is my weapon of choice
against marines of any sort.
> I definitely agree with that. IMO, a good general with a decent,
> non-cheesed out, squad based army can easily take on about anyone. Against
> the one-trick ponies (credit who for that?), the army might not win. But
> that's sort of always been the case.
Evolving army structures are always a concern. I saw some evolve quite
a bit, going from squad-based to character-based and back again. Even
though I kept the army basically the same, I had a high win ratio with
it...not perfect, but pretty good. The one good thing that can be said
for using an army with a character so powerful that he basically wins or
loses the battle on his own is that it frees up a lot of points for you
to use on models you want to include because you LIKE them, not because
you NEED them.
> And unless you play over 3000 points, relying on a few expensive units
> will almost always put a hurt on you (especially if you play "Last man
> standing" rules).
As I said, it didn't work too badly for me. But then again, most of my
opponents were character-based cheezers like me. My characters ensured
that if they played my game, I would probably win, and they usually
played my game. Same went with vehicles: Pink Fire and Inferno Bolts
work just dandy on those, too. Regardless of the morality of the army,
I learned some valuable lessons with it. I'm almost sorry to see it go.
> Not sure it's so much a lesson, as dealing with a very effective tactic.
> IMO, the only way you can kill off squad based armies with a much smaller
> one is to simply sit back and pound the other guy with long range
> firepower. I've had my armys decimated from mortars (extremely
> underrated) and Dreads equipped for short range anti-personal work. Even
> using bare vehicles drops the squad effectiveness some (as you are limited
> to anti-armour weapons).
Most of my heavy weapons were sustained fire, and "stand and deliver"
was my tactic. Veterans deployed in hiding, in cover, throughout the
board, on overwatch. Whether I went first or not, I tended to inflict a
lot of kills on turn one, and enemy advances were always arduous. The
tactic that worked best against me, I found, was a concentrated advance
right up the middle, sort of a damn-the-torpedoes type deal. Move
forward, take your licks, and smash the vets.
The characters didn't get to work their magic until turn two, when the
KoS would appear just outside the enemy deployment zone and start
wreaking havoc. With a demon behind and vets all around, a lot of
opponents grew flustered, lost their focus, and pretty much lost the
game right then and there -- they forgot the big picture and started
concentrating on every little exchange.
> There is an effective way to deal with it, which usually ends up happening
> when I face 'Nids. Simply have the range and volume of fire to deal with
> being outnumbered.
It was a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't dilemma for me. I needed
a lot of cover to ensure the survival of my Demon and Sorceror, and also
to provide firebases for the vets; however, all that clutter limited the
fields of fire for my autocannons. On the whole, I preferred more cover
to less cover -- if you don't see anything and you're not planning on
moving, you can always go into overwatch and bag someone next turn,
after all.
> Yeah... that's definitely true. I think indirect fire weapons are
> seriously overpowered, with the only exception that you have to guess the
> first shot. But, field a battery of about 4, and one volley will take care
> of most problems.
Although it's always gratifying to see five volleys land on the same
squad the whole game, resulting in four hits, one miss, and no
casulties. I didn't even bother to kill the Whirlwind -- it wasn't a
threat and it was too far back to kill easily. I focused my attention
on the Termies, Devestators, and the Vindicare that popped up next to my
deployment zone. (WTF? Where the HELL did HE come from?)
> The only thing I can think that might be another kind of deterrent to a
> Sorceror, is using Wraithguard. Something which I really don't do a lot
> of. Without armour saves, the Sorceror is extremely vulnerable. And even
> if he gets displaced off the Disc, then he'd get tied up in HtH. Plus, if
> he managed to drop a Wraithguard, there's the chance of taking the
> Sorceror into the Warp.
I haven't faced large numbers of Wraithguard yet. The way I figure, if
the board was somewhat clear, I'd work on clearing the screens and doing
them with autocannon fire from far away -- I wouldn't put my Termies or
Sorceror anywhere near them. Not to mention the fact that Pink Fire
wouldn't hurt them. (We had a debate about this; I graciously conceeded
the fact that, no, Pink Fire wouldn't do dick to a Wraithguard.)
Lacking my biggest punch, I'd just avoid them. A smart general would
use them as a bodyguard for juicy targets, daring me to send in the
Sorceror anyway, but I'd resist that urge. It would be suicide. The
times I did face them, they were often misdeployed and easy targets for
the Dreadnought, which had superior agility, much longer range, and
enough firepower to take down entire squads of them at a time.
(Autocannons work beautifully against Wraithguard without overkilling
them.)
> Off hand, I'd say there are plenty of ways to deal with a Chaos army using
> Eldar, or an Eldar army using Chaos. It's simply that not all the ways are
> effective in every given situation.
I'd take it a step further and say that if two armies face each other,
with equal generals, and one army is designed specifically to defeat the
other, the former army will win 9 times out of 10. We try to enforce
the practice of using general-purpose armies around here, as it keeps
things in perspective. Sometimes, we'll design armies to defeat each
other; those games are real slaughterfests, loads of fun.
The above statement does not apply to the Necron, of course, as they
have a hard time killing just about anything. (Besides the SoB, and
when the SoB aren't teaming up with someone else, I consider them
better-looking Necron.)
-- Con, always ready to taunt Necron and SoB players. (It's easy to be
humble when your army list was created to lose.)
Brian Schenck
> Brian Schenck wrote:
>
> > I should say so. Although, using that many Psykers leaves you vulnerable
> > to placing points in models that aren't always effective outside of one
> > phase. A well placed Daemonic Attack can take out one of those, and Energy
> > Drain (?) can always put a hurt on you. Although, I will grant that
> > inherent strength is pratically insane.
>
> Oh, trust me...Greater Demons and Sorcerors on discs equipped with
> Inferno Bolts are quite effective outside the psychic phase. =) That's
> where mine tend to do most of their clobbering. I mean, think about
> it...after losing a squad of Termies to Inferno Bolts and your assault
> squad to a pissed-off KoS, are you REALLY worrying about psychic
> abilities? I know I'm not. When I see that demon appear, I'm not
> thinking lvl 4 psyker...I'm thinking more along the lines of, "Gun that
> sumbitch down before he gets within charge range or it's my ass." If he
> appears within charge range (as I try to ensure mine does), it gets even
> dicier.
>
I suppose the only thing that would really be as effective, would be a
Grey Knight army. Not that its actually legal, but with all the psychic
abilities and Nemesis Force weapons, the Greater Daemon and Sorcerors are
at least equally matched.
Then again, it's still going to be ugly as sin.
> Energy Drain ain't too bad. Daemonic Attack worries me, but not enough
> to lose any sleep. I don't expect to see it played on my KoS, after
> all, and he accounts for 50% of my psychic muscle.
>
Yeah, outright, those probably wouldn't hurt you. Especially considering
the chances of either coming up are rather low.
> > How many points is that anyhow? I'm thinking at least 1000 points for all
> > of that.
>
> Like I said, this was an extremely character-heavy army conceived as a
> testbed for some new ideas. It worked pretty decently, even though it
> was inherently flawed, and more importantly it was fun, so I kept it
> around for a while. With the general, the Sorceror, the Demon, and
> several Aspiring Champs, character expenditure was 998 points, if I
> recall correctly. Half the army. As I said, character-heavy. The rest
> of it was a Dreadnought, a number of three-man veteran heavy weapons
> teams, and a five-man squad of plain vanilla CSM's with a lascannon.
> Most of my heavy weapons were autocannons -- this army fought most of
> its battles against SM's, and the autocannon is my weapon of choice
> against marines of any sort.
>
I'd have to agree. Autocannons have a good rate of fire, and are going to
wound and kill marines fairly well. Now, the Heavy Bolter has a much
better fire rate, but won't give you as good a chance of wounding and
kill. It'd be interesting to see how they stacked up against each other.
Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
and strength.
> > I definitely agree with that. IMO, a good general with a decent,
> > non-cheesed out, squad based army can easily take on about anyone. Against
> > the one-trick ponies (credit who for that?), the army might not win. But
> > that's sort of always been the case.
>
> Evolving army structures are always a concern. I saw some evolve quite
> a bit, going from squad-based to character-based and back again. Even
> though I kept the army basically the same, I had a high win ratio with
> it...not perfect, but pretty good. The one good thing that can be said
> for using an army with a character so powerful that he basically wins or
> loses the battle on his own is that it frees up a lot of points for you
> to use on models you want to include because you LIKE them, not because
> you NEED them.
>
Oh definitely. Which I think is really one of the major problems with the
current strength of characters. You can simply make them too kick ass.
Even if you have to pay 300 points for one, that's really nothing in a
1500 point army. And the damage the right kind of 300 point character can
do is just insane.
> > And unless you play over 3000 points, relying on a few expensive units
> > will almost always put a hurt on you (especially if you play "Last man
> > standing" rules).
>
> As I said, it didn't work too badly for me. But then again, most of my
> opponents were character-based cheezers like me. My characters ensured
> that if they played my game, I would probably win, and they usually
> played my game. Same went with vehicles: Pink Fire and Inferno Bolts
> work just dandy on those, too. Regardless of the morality of the army,
> I learned some valuable lessons with it. I'm almost sorry to see it go.
>
If I were your opponent, I wouldn't be. :)
> > Not sure it's so much a lesson, as dealing with a very effective tactic.
> > IMO, the only way you can kill off squad based armies with a much smaller
> > one is to simply sit back and pound the other guy with long range
> > firepower. I've had my armys decimated from mortars (extremely
> > underrated) and Dreads equipped for short range anti-personal work. Even
> > using bare vehicles drops the squad effectiveness some (as you are limited
> > to anti-armour weapons).
>
> Most of my heavy weapons were sustained fire, and "stand and deliver"
> was my tactic. Veterans deployed in hiding, in cover, throughout the
> board, on overwatch. Whether I went first or not, I tended to inflict a
> lot of kills on turn one, and enemy advances were always arduous. The
> tactic that worked best against me, I found, was a concentrated advance
> right up the middle, sort of a damn-the-torpedoes type deal. Move
> forward, take your licks, and smash the vets.
Well, the only problem I have, is that you normally can't deploy into OW.
Taking that away, infiltrated veterans are susceptible if you do not go
first (which is not impossible with Chaos). Not very, but still any
weakness is good enough to exploit.
> The characters didn't get to work their magic until turn two, when the
> KoS would appear just outside the enemy deployment zone and start
> wreaking havoc. With a demon behind and vets all around, a lot of
> opponents grew flustered, lost their focus, and pretty much lost the
> game right then and there -- they forgot the big picture and started
> concentrating on every little exchange.
>
Yeah, that's the biggest problem right there. Once a player loses sight of
the objective, you can almost never win.
However, I think a few IG tankers can deal with that fairly effectively.
> > There is an effective way to deal with it, which usually ends up happening
> > when I face 'Nids. Simply have the range and volume of fire to deal with
> > being outnumbered.
>
> It was a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't dilemma for me. I needed
> a lot of cover to ensure the survival of my Demon and Sorceror, and also
> to provide firebases for the vets; however, all that clutter limited the
> fields of fire for my autocannons. On the whole, I preferred more cover
> to less cover -- if you don't see anything and you're not planning on
> moving, you can always go into overwatch and bag someone next turn,
> after all.
>
Definitely. OW is good if you have a deep defensive screen. Then when your
opponent tries moving through that screen, OW just hits him from every
angle. And then regular shots hit him against next turn.
Personally, I don't like OW so much, as it is more appropriate for a
strong defensive force (or at least defensive models), and Eldar are a
more offensive army. Same with 'Nids, they have to go on the offensive as
quickly as possibly. Otherwise, they simply can not dig in and return
fire.
> > Yeah... that's definitely true. I think indirect fire weapons are
> > seriously overpowered, with the only exception that you have to guess the
> > first shot. But, field a battery of about 4, and one volley will take care
> > of most problems.
>
> Although it's always gratifying to see five volleys land on the same
> squad the whole game, resulting in four hits, one miss, and no
> casulties. I didn't even bother to kill the Whirlwind -- it wasn't a
> threat and it was too far back to kill easily. I focused my attention
> on the Termies, Devestators, and the Vindicare that popped up next to my
> deployment zone. (WTF? Where the HELL did HE come from?)
>
Yeah, I've never actually had to face a Whirlwind, but I have heard they
can be a problem. Then again, since I've actually finished with my Falcon,
I might have enough mobility to take care of a problem like that.
> > The only thing I can think that might be another kind of deterrent to a
> > Sorceror, is using Wraithguard. Something which I really don't do a lot
> > of. Without armour saves, the Sorceror is extremely vulnerable. And even
> > if he gets displaced off the Disc, then he'd get tied up in HtH. Plus, if
> > he managed to drop a Wraithguard, there's the chance of taking the
> > Sorceror into the Warp.
>
> I haven't faced large numbers of Wraithguard yet. The way I figure, if
> the board was somewhat clear, I'd work on clearing the screens and doing
> them with autocannon fire from far away -- I wouldn't put my Termies or
> Sorceror anywhere near them. Not to mention the fact that Pink Fire
> wouldn't hurt them. (We had a debate about this; I graciously conceeded
> the fact that, no, Pink Fire wouldn't do dick to a Wraithguard.)
> Lacking my biggest punch, I'd just avoid them. A smart general would
> use them as a bodyguard for juicy targets, daring me to send in the
> Sorceror anyway, but I'd resist that urge. It would be suicide. The
> times I did face them, they were often misdeployed and easy targets for
> the Dreadnought, which had superior agility, much longer range, and
> enough firepower to take down entire squads of them at a time.
> (Autocannons work beautifully against Wraithguard without overkilling
> them.)
>
Oh definitely. I figure most people who complain about Wraithguard are
usually the ones who actually get within their range. If you stay outside
their range, a Boltgun will take care of them. And autocannons would be
murder.
Then again, you'll get the one lucky SOB who gets Guide and proceeds to
zap as many of your models as he can.
> > Off hand, I'd say there are plenty of ways to deal with a Chaos army using
> > Eldar, or an Eldar army using Chaos. It's simply that not all the ways are
> > effective in every given situation.
>
> I'd take it a step further and say that if two armies face each other,
> with equal generals, and one army is designed specifically to defeat the
> other, the former army will win 9 times out of 10. We try to enforce
> the practice of using general-purpose armies around here, as it keeps
> things in perspective. Sometimes, we'll design armies to defeat each
> other; those games are real slaughterfests, loads of fun.
>
Okay, I definitely find that to be true. I prefer a general purpose army
myself, as it keeps options open and can usually adapt to a given
situation. But, even a dedicated army is an idea I've wanted to play with,
simply because trying to win with it against every conceivable type of
army is an interesting challenge.
BEltringha
>I suppose the only thing that would really be as effective, would be a
>Grey Knight army. Not that its actually legal, but with all the psychic
>abilities and Nemesis Force weapons, the Greater Daemon and Sorcerors are
>at least equally matched.
>
>Then again, it's still goin
In my experience greater daemons are not very effective unless you can keep
them from being targeted by heavy weapons, ie screen with a dreadnaught and get
smaller class troops within 6" of the HW's. Otherwise your Greater Daemon will
die a miserable death. I never use GD's because of their expense and how
quickly they die, it is extremely hard to screen them because of the way you
can face HW troopers to ignore other models. Eldar players often complain about
the price of the Avatar but I tell you what, I have always had a very difficult
time killing the Avatar for one simple reason, he can be screened by guardians.
Even a tooled up Chaos lord can't match this guy, especially when he is flanked
by two squads of banshees and wraithguard with 3 squads of guardians to soak up
fire.
Joe Schulte
: >cheese finally got to GW :)
: >
: >Two Words: Space Wolves...
: >
: One Word Chaos
Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
-Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
Infinity
Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
/-\/-\
\-/\-/
Liam Maughan
You laugh.
I've seen it.
It's very, very bad.
Brian Schenck
> >I suppose the only thing that would really be as effective, would be a
> >Grey Knight army. Not that its actually legal, but with all the psychic
> >abilities and Nemesis Force weapons, the Greater Daemon and Sorcerors are
> >at least equally matched.
> >
> >Then again, it's still goin
>
> In my experience greater daemons are not very effective unless you can keep
> them from being targeted by heavy weapons, ie screen with a dreadnaught and get
> smaller class troops within 6" of the HW's. Otherwise your Greater Daemon will
> die a miserable death. I never use GD's because of their expense and how
> quickly they die, it is extremely hard to screen them because of the way you
> can face HW troopers to ignore other models. Eldar players often complain about
> the price of the Avatar but I tell you what, I have always had a very difficult
> time killing the Avatar for one simple reason, he can be screened by guardians.
> Even a tooled up Chaos lord can't match this guy, especially when he is flanked
> by two squads of banshees and wraithguard with 3 squads of guardians to soak up
> fire.
>
See, to me that's just cheesy. The Avatar is the same size as the
Dreadnought, and it's just common sense that it should be subject to the
same targetting rules. Now, I realize it isn't an official rule, but a
some what official rule is that since the Avatar is treated in several
instances as a Daemon (regarding Force Weapons and other such items), then
it might be possible to apply the targetting rule as well.
I'm not saying that it is that way, just that I believe it should be that
way.
Kemnitzer,Trollman
wrote:
>I'd have to agree. Autocannons have a good rate of fire, and are going to
>wound and kill marines fairly well. Now, the Heavy Bolter has a much
>better fire rate, but won't give you as good a chance of wounding and
>kill. It'd be interesting to see how they stacked up against each other.
This post was too long. However, assuming that the to-hit roll
was a success, here is how the Autocannon, the Reaper Autocannon, the
Assault Cannon and the Heavy Bolter match up (assuming that you hit
marines):
Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
*the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
its chance of jamming.
Looking at this chart, it really makes you wonder about the pricing on
these weapons, until you take into consideration Armor Penetration:
Average Pen. Min Pen 10+ pen chance
Asscann 17 10 100%
R AutoC 15 10 100%
H Bolter 11 7 75%
AutoCan 15 10 100%
The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
Space Marines.
>Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
>Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
>and strength.
The Reaper Autocannon is usually better, especially for the
price (37 vs 45 points), see above.
>Brian D. Schenck
Frank,
Can't have Reaper Autocannons :(
Richard Orthuber
> Joe Schulte wrote:
> >
> > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> > : >
> > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> > : >
> > : One Word Chaos
> >
> > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> >
> > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
>
> Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
Rishar
> I suppose the only thing that would really be as effective, would be a
> Grey Knight army. Not that its actually legal, but with all the psychic
> abilities and Nemesis Force weapons, the Greater Daemon and Sorcerors are
> at least equally matched.
I don't see Gray Knights very often. I think I'm the only one around
here that owns any, and I only have one. (I bought it on sale 'cause it
looked cool.)
> Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
> Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
> and strength.
They're not too bad if you position your screens right. It's a hassle
when you're facing a Dreadnought with assault cannons, but otherwise
it's not too bad.
> Oh definitely. Which I think is really one of the major problems with the
> current strength of characters. You can simply make them too kick ass.
> Even if you have to pay 300 points for one, that's really nothing in a
> 1500 point army. And the damage the right kind of 300 point character can
> do is just insane.
My 300-point character is routinely responsible for 70% of the casulties
my army inflicts.
From what I'm hearing, this is going to go away in the new edition. I,
for one, am happy to see these characters go. It'll be nice to use
squads again.
> Definitely. OW is good if you have a deep defensive screen. Then when your
> opponent tries moving through that screen, OW just hits him from every
> angle. And then regular shots hit him against next turn.
>
> Personally, I don't like OW so much, as it is more appropriate for a
> strong defensive force (or at least defensive models), and Eldar are a
> more offensive army. Same with 'Nids, they have to go on the offensive as
> quickly as possibly. Otherwise, they simply can not dig in and return
> fire.
I agree. The only time I ever see Eldar using overwatch is with Dark
Reapers and Wraithguard in defensive positions. Both are pretty
effective as deterrants, though.
> Yeah, I've never actually had to face a Whirlwind, but I have heard they
> can be a problem. Then again, since I've actually finished with my Falcon,
> I might have enough mobility to take care of a problem like that.
Lots of Whirlwinds around here. With regards to the Eldar army I'm
working on, I'm counting on losing all of my jetbikes (including the
Vyper) to Whirlwind fire by turn 3. Turns 4 and 5 should generate some
dead Guardians. I'm going to have to get used to worrying about
fragmentation-type weapons again...it never really was a concern with
CSM's. When you have light-armor, low-toughness troops, Whirlwinds can
be a real hassle -- they do a LOT of damage.
> Then again, you'll get the one lucky SOB who gets Guide and proceeds to
> zap as many of your models as he can.
Not even necessary -- Wraithguard are pretty decent shots, especially
when you're using them as a bodyguard for a Farseer. I always get a
kick out of people Guiding D-Cannon shots.
> Okay, I definitely find that to be true. I prefer a general purpose army
> myself, as it keeps options open and can usually adapt to a given
> situation. But, even a dedicated army is an idea I've wanted to play with,
> simply because trying to win with it against every conceivable type of
> army is an interesting challenge.
It certainly is. Nothing like taking desperation shots against tanks
with heavy bolters.
-- Con...no clever line following this time.
pma...@banet.net
Space Wolves, and am considering playing Eldar...NO! SOMEONE HELP ME!
-Matthew Maggio
He's OK..REALLY! MAKE THE VOICES STOP! WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT! I'm OK,
you're ok we're all ok.
Brian Schenck
> Infinity wrote:
>
> > Joe Schulte wrote:
> > >
> > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> > > : >
> > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> > > : >
> > > : One Word Chaos
> > >
> > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> > >
> > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
> >
> > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
>
> Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
>
Naw... I got a better one:
"Fast shooting Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolfguard Sorceror Comissar"
Brian Schenck
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:16:45 -0400, Brian Schenck <shr...@wam.umd.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >I'd have to agree. Autocannons have a good rate of fire, and are going to
> >wound and kill marines fairly well. Now, the Heavy Bolter has a much
> >better fire rate, but won't give you as good a chance of wounding and
> >kill. It'd be interesting to see how they stacked up against each other.
>
> This post was too long. However, assuming that the to-hit roll
> was a success, here is how the Autocannon, the Reaper Autocannon, the
> Assault Cannon and the Heavy Bolter match up (assuming that you hit
> marines):
>
You know, I'm not surprised that someone would go and do it. Although, I
think a few people were probably interested. Thanks. (And no, I'm not
being sarcastic)
> Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
> Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
> R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
> H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
> AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
>
> *the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
> its chance of jamming.
>
> Looking at this chart, it really makes you wonder about the pricing on
> these weapons, until you take into consideration Armor Penetration:
>
> Average Pen. Min Pen 10+ pen chance
> Asscann 17 10 100%
> R AutoC 15 10 100%
> H Bolter 11 7 75%
> AutoCan 15 10 100%
>
> The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> Space Marines.
>
Yeah. I'd honestly think, the Autocannon is a good all around weapon for
the troops that get it. If you take Marines, then you have to choose
between the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon (well, not really, considering
you also have to choose two different troop types).
I'm not wrong in thinking the Reaper gets to ignore a jam right?
> >Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
> >Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
> >and strength.
>
> The Reaper Autocannon is usually better, especially for the
> price (37 vs 45 points), see above.
>
Oh definitely. The biggest disadvantage to the Assault Cannon is a
relatively short range, which makes it better to get in close with. The
Reaper has a better range, and as you've said, the price is good too.
It is interesting to see just how well these weapons sometimes stack up
against one another.
Brian Schenck
> Brian Schenck wrote:
>
> > I suppose the only thing that would really be as effective, would be a
> > Grey Knight army. Not that its actually legal, but with all the psychic
> > abilities and Nemesis Force weapons, the Greater Daemon and Sorcerors are
> > at least equally matched.
>
> I don't see Gray Knights very often. I think I'm the only one around
> here that owns any, and I only have one. (I bought it on sale 'cause it
> looked cool.)
>
Neither do I, but I also don't see many Psyker heavy and Daemon armies.
It's sometimes scary just how players' strategies differ that far across
the board.
> > Oh definitely. Which I think is really one of the major problems with the
> > current strength of characters. You can simply make them too kick ass.
> > Even if you have to pay 300 points for one, that's really nothing in a
> > 1500 point army. And the damage the right kind of 300 point character can
> > do is just insane.
>
> My 300-point character is routinely responsible for 70% of the casulties
> my army inflicts.
> From what I'm hearing, this is going to go away in the new edition. I,
> for one, am happy to see these characters go. It'll be nice to use
> squads again.
>
Ditto to that one. I've always favored squad heavy armies, even at the
risk of simply not being able to win. It'll be different to see how people
play under the new rules. As well as how armies get built.
> > Personally, I don't like OW so much, as it is more appropriate for a
> > strong defensive force (or at least defensive models), and Eldar are a
> > more offensive army. Same with 'Nids, they have to go on the offensive as
> > quickly as possibly. Otherwise, they simply can not dig in and return
> > fire.
>
> I agree. The only time I ever see Eldar using overwatch is with Dark
> Reapers and Wraithguard in defensive positions. Both are pretty
> effective as deterrants, though.
>
Actually, I don't even use Dark Reapers in OW anymore. Simply because they
are usually sitting ducks, and waiting a turn for OW can be a real bad
move sometimes. Although, I almost wonder if using Wraithguard as a screen
for Dark Reapers might be a viable option.
> > Yeah, I've never actually had to face a Whirlwind, but I have heard they
> > can be a problem. Then again, since I've actually finished with my Falcon,
> > I might have enough mobility to take care of a problem like that.
>
> Lots of Whirlwinds around here. With regards to the Eldar army I'm
> working on, I'm counting on losing all of my jetbikes (including the
> Vyper) to Whirlwind fire by turn 3. Turns 4 and 5 should generate some
> dead Guardians. I'm going to have to get used to worrying about
> fragmentation-type weapons again...it never really was a concern with
> CSM's. When you have light-armor, low-toughness troops, Whirlwinds can
> be a real hassle -- they do a LOT of damage.
>
I can imagine. I imagine that IG squad armies have the exact same problem
against Whirlwinds as well. Possibly Orks too, but a Pulsa can easily
remedy that problem.
> > Then again, you'll get the one lucky SOB who gets Guide and proceeds to
> > zap as many of your models as he can.
>
> Not even necessary -- Wraithguard are pretty decent shots, especially
> when you're using them as a bodyguard for a Farseer. I always get a
> kick out of people Guiding D-Cannon shots.
>
Well, it sucks cause then the Wraithcannon hits you at 32", instead of the
more reasonable 16". And Wraithguard do make a good bodyguard, even Fire
Dragons make a good bodyguard too.
> > Okay, I definitely find that to be true. I prefer a general purpose army
> > myself, as it keeps options open and can usually adapt to a given
> > situation. But, even a dedicated army is an idea I've wanted to play with,
> > simply because trying to win with it against every conceivable type of
> > army is an interesting challenge.
>
> It certainly is. Nothing like taking desperation shots against tanks
> with heavy bolters.
>
Yeah, that can be pretty bad.
Rishar
> The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> Space Marines.
No argument here. It's a dilemma I face frequently. (Not so with
Eldar, but definately with CSM's.) Heavy bolters or autocannons? Heavy
bolters put out more fire, cost less, but tend to jam more and lack an
autocannon's range and punch. Autocannons can realistically be used
against light to medium vehicles...heavy bolters can't, unless there's
an exposed crewman. I guess it really depends on who you're fighting.
I try to include a few of both, but I tend to favor the autocannon,
especially against marines -- it hits hard enough to drop them reliably,
but without overkilling, and it'll kill any vehicle up to (and
including) Rhino variants, if need be. A Reaper's great because you get
the best of both worlds without too much of a price hike, PLUS you get
the extra attack in HtH. Doesn't get much better than that, but it's
just not an assault cannon. (Which will bust up most vehicles, Greater
Demons, Hive Tyrants, Avatars, and just about anything else with
frightening ease.) IMO, an assault cannon on a Dreadnought frightens me
more than any other weapon in the game. Simply terrifying. Throw in a
missile launcher or a second assault cannon and you've got one of the
most effective killing machines in the 40K universe.
On a similar note, one weapon I'm beginning to experiment with that I've
avoided like the plague in the past is the heavy plasma gun. Sure, it's
pricy, but it's actually pretty versatile, especially on a Dreadnought
or vehicle. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty easy to field in
an Eldar army...
-- Con, re-evaluating his whole worldview in preparation of an army
change.
Robert Ansell
>
> Infinity wrote:
>
> > Joe Schulte wrote:
> > >
> > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> > > : >
> > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> > > : >
> > > : One Word Chaos
> > >
> > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> > >
> > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
> >
> > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
>
> Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
Palace2000
Three more words...
Gimme your money.. :(
Kemnitzer,Trollman
<shr...@stopspam.wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:16:45 -0400, Brian Schenck <shr...@wam.umd.edu>
>> wrote:
>> However, assuming that the to-hit roll
>> was a success, here is how the Autocannon, the Reaper Autocannon, the
>> Assault Cannon and the Heavy Bolter match up (assuming that you hit
>> marines):
>>
>You know, I'm not surprised that someone would go and do it. Although, I
>think a few people were probably interested. Thanks. (And no, I'm not
>being sarcastic)
Thank you. Actually, it isn't that hard because it's just a
series of probabilities rolled on a D6. That means that with a
scientific calculator which can keep track of a lot of division, its
just a matter of checking your work and doing it in the right order.
That whole chart took me less than 4 minutes. :)
>> Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
>> Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
>> R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
>> H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
>> AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
>>
>> *the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
>> its chance of jamming.
>>
>> Looking at this chart, it really makes you wonder about the pricing on
>> these weapons, until you take into consideration Armor Penetration:
>>
>> Average Pen. Min Pen 10+ pen chance
>> Asscann 17 10 100%
>> R AutoC 15 10 100%
>> H Bolter 11 7 75%
>> AutoCan 15 10 100%
>>
>> The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
>> relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
>> Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
>> Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
>> Space Marines.
>Yeah. I'd honestly think, the Autocannon is a good all around weapon for
>the troops that get it. If you take Marines, then you have to choose
>between the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon (well, not really, considering
>you also have to choose two different troop types).
I'm sort of dissapointed by the autocannon. A strong case can
be made that you are better off splitting between lascannons (better
against big targets) and heavy bolters (better against small targets).
I'm not sure what to do about it, as it depends largely on the force
composition of your enemies (Autocannons REALLY shine against Nurgle
troops, btw, where they continue to wound on a 2+).
>I'm not wrong in thinking the Reaper gets to ignore a jam right?
Um.... sort-of. The Reaper Autocannon gets to re-roll a
sustained fire die. The above chart assumes that this ability is only
used to re-roll a jam. It can also be used to reroll a 1 result,
thereby noticably increasing its already good ROF in exchange for a
whole lot of danger. I'm not sure if anyone actually does this (except
maybe on the last turn), so I left this off of the chart.
>> >Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
>> >Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
>> >and strength.
>>
>> The Reaper Autocannon is usually better, especially for the
>> price (37 vs 45 points), see above.
>Oh definitely. The biggest disadvantage to the Assault Cannon is a
>relatively short range, which makes it better to get in close with. The
>Reaper has a better range, and as you've said, the price is good too.
I find that the biggest disadvantage of the assault cannon is
that it jams 42% of he time, except on Dreadnoughts (where it gets
about an 8% jam rate, a vast improvement). But of course, YMMV. I
personally object to paying out 45 points for a weapon which is only
usable in half the game (but people go on using cyclone missile
launchers, so what do I know?).
>It is interesting to see just how well these weapons sometimes stack up
>against one another.
It is at that.
>Brian D. Schenck
Frank
Brian Schenck
> Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
>
> > The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> > relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> > Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> > Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> > Space Marines.
>
> No argument here. It's a dilemma I face frequently. (Not so with
> Eldar, but definately with CSM's.) Heavy bolters or autocannons? Heavy
> bolters put out more fire, cost less, but tend to jam more and lack an
> autocannon's range and punch. Autocannons can realistically be used
> against light to medium vehicles...heavy bolters can't, unless there's
> an exposed crewman. I guess it really depends on who you're fighting.
> I try to include a few of both, but I tend to favor the autocannon,
> especially against marines -- it hits hard enough to drop them reliably,
> but without overkilling, and it'll kill any vehicle up to (and
> including) Rhino variants, if need be. A Reaper's great because you get
> the best of both worlds without too much of a price hike, PLUS you get
> the extra attack in HtH. Doesn't get much better than that, but it's
> just not an assault cannon. (Which will bust up most vehicles, Greater
> Demons, Hive Tyrants, Avatars, and just about anything else with
> frightening ease.) IMO, an assault cannon on a Dreadnought frightens me
> more than any other weapon in the game. Simply terrifying. Throw in a
> missile launcher or a second assault cannon and you've got one of the
> most effective killing machines in the 40K universe.
>
Agreed on those points. If you face a lot of infantry, the heavy bolter is
simply going to be what you want to take. In a mixed force (or heavier on
vehicles), the Autocannon is a better choice. And the Assault Cannon is
just plain good at both things.
Of course, what I hate is when people start using DM rules to swap assault
cannons on to vehicles that normally don't have them. I've never seen it,
but a couple of Predators with Assault cannons instead of Autocannons is
not a comforting thought.
One thing I have seen, is swapping the damage from the Assault cannon to
the Autocannon. It upps the penetration on the Autocannon (at a loss to
the assault cannon), and makes the assault cannon more af an anti-infantry
and light vehicle killer.
> On a similar note, one weapon I'm beginning to experiment with that I've
> avoided like the plague in the past is the heavy plasma gun. Sure, it's
> pricy, but it's actually pretty versatile, especially on a Dreadnought
> or vehicle. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty easy to field in
> an Eldar army...
>
Field a battery of 2 HPGs and a Scatter Laser, and every other turn you
can vaporize a squad of Termies (or their equivalent). Or, you can stagger
your shots, and get one every turn. And even at low power, the HPG is
effective against infantry.
David Yalden-Thomson
Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
> >> The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> >> relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> >> Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> >> Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> >> Space Marines.
>
> >Yeah. I'd honestly think, the Autocannon is a good all around weapon for
> >the troops that get it. If you take Marines, then you have to choose
> >between the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon (well, not really, considering
> >you also have to choose two different troop types).
>
> I'm sort of dissapointed by the autocannon. A strong case can
> be made that you are better off splitting between lascannons (better
> against big targets) and heavy bolters (better against small targets).
> I'm not sure what to do about it, as it depends largely on the force
> composition of your enemies (Autocannons REALLY shine against Nurgle
> troops, btw, where they continue to wound on a 2+).
>
> >I'm not wrong in thinking the Reaper gets to ignore a jam right?
>
> Um.... sort-of. The Reaper Autocannon gets to re-roll a
> sustained fire die. The above chart assumes that this ability is only
> used to re-roll a jam. It can also be used to reroll a 1 result,
> thereby noticably increasing its already good ROF in exchange for a
> whole lot of danger. I'm not sure if anyone actually does this (except
> maybe on the last turn), so I left this off of the chart.
>
> >> >Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
> >> >Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
> >> >and strength.
> >>
> >> The Reaper Autocannon is usually better, especially for the
> >> price (37 vs 45 points), see above.
>
> >Oh definitely. The biggest disadvantage to the Assault Cannon is a
> >relatively short range, which makes it better to get in close with. The
> >Reaper has a better range, and as you've said, the price is good too.
>
> I find that the biggest disadvantage of the assault cannon is
> that it jams 42% of he time, except on Dreadnoughts (where it gets
> about an 8% jam rate, a vast improvement). But of course, YMMV. I
> personally object to paying out 45 points for a weapon which is only
> usable in half the game (but people go on using cyclone missile
> launchers, so what do I know?).
>
> >It is interesting to see just how well these weapons sometimes stack up
> >against one another.
>
> It is at that.
>
> >Brian D. Schenck
>
> Frank
>
Then there is the Vulcan Mega-Cannon on Titans for 40K Asscanoon stats with 5 SFD
ignore all jams.....
God I love that against Tyranids. One WarHound with twin VMC rolling 10 SFD per
Turn....
He changed his mind about letting me you my Titan in the next game....
Just a few thoughts about an IG player who loves the BIG stuff.....
Brian Schenck
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:25:07 -0400, Brian Schenck
> <shr...@stopspam.wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> >You know, I'm not surprised that someone would go and do it. Although, I
> >think a few people were probably interested. Thanks. (And no, I'm not
> >being sarcastic)
>
> Thank you. Actually, it isn't that hard because it's just a
> series of probabilities rolled on a D6. That means that with a
> scientific calculator which can keep track of a lot of division, its
> just a matter of checking your work and doing it in the right order.
>
> That whole chart took me less than 4 minutes. :)
>
My thing is, it's been a while since I did any sort of math beyond Credits
and Debits. Admitedly, I was upto some pretty advanced Calc, it's still
been about 3 years. That, and it's been a while since business statistics.
So, I'm sure I'd make a mistake. And not having the rules right here in
front of me (with an exception of the BattleBible) only helps that.
> >> Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
> >> Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
> >> R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
> >> H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
> >> AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
> >>
> >> *the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
> >> its chance of jamming.
> >>
> >> Looking at this chart, it really makes you wonder about the pricing on
> >> these weapons, until you take into consideration Armor Penetration:
> >>
> >> Average Pen. Min Pen 10+ pen chance
> >> Asscann 17 10 100%
> >> R AutoC 15 10 100%
> >> H Bolter 11 7 75%
> >> AutoCan 15 10 100%
> >>
> >Yeah. I'd honestly think, the Autocannon is a good all around weapon for
> >the troops that get it. If you take Marines, then you have to choose
> >between the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon (well, not really, considering
> >you also have to choose two different troop types).
>
> I'm sort of dissapointed by the autocannon. A strong case can
> be made that you are better off splitting between lascannons (better
> against big targets) and heavy bolters (better against small targets).
> I'm not sure what to do about it, as it depends largely on the force
> composition of your enemies (Autocannons REALLY shine against Nurgle
> troops, btw, where they continue to wound on a 2+).
>
Definitely. The only thing that might be of worth, is swapping the damage
roll for the assault cannon with the autocannon. Then you make the
autocannon worth taking, and the assault cannon doesn't lose a whole lot
(the avg pen. doesn't change much, and the volume of fire still makes up
for the loss).
> >I'm not wrong in thinking the Reaper gets to ignore a jam right?
>
> Um.... sort-of. The Reaper Autocannon gets to re-roll a
> sustained fire die. The above chart assumes that this ability is only
> used to re-roll a jam. It can also be used to reroll a 1 result,
> thereby noticably increasing its already good ROF in exchange for a
> whole lot of danger. I'm not sure if anyone actually does this (except
> maybe on the last turn), so I left this off of the chart.
>
Okay, I couldn't remember if it was a reroll or ignoring a jam. Of course,
that sort of brings up with what happens when you put any of these on a
vehicle.
> >Oh definitely. The biggest disadvantage to the Assault Cannon is a
> >relatively short range, which makes it better to get in close with. The
> >Reaper has a better range, and as you've said, the price is good too.
>
> I find that the biggest disadvantage of the assault cannon is
> that it jams 42% of he time, except on Dreadnoughts (where it gets
> about an 8% jam rate, a vast improvement). But of course, YMMV. I
> personally object to paying out 45 points for a weapon which is only
> usable in half the game (but people go on using cyclone missile
> launchers, so what do I know?).
>
Okay, there is that too. I very rarely see people jam on more than one
die, but every now and then, you get the poor guy who rolls three. I
suppose the idea of having that many shots is simply too attractive to
pass up.
The only use I can think of for the Cyclone launcher is against vehicles.
With the area effect, and the decent penetration, you can get almost every
part of a vehicle at once. But other than that, it isn't too terribly
useful.
Jason Gustaves
> avoided like the plague in the past is the heavy plasma gun. Sure, it's
> pricy, but it's actually pretty versatile, especially on a Dreadnought
> or vehicle. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty easy to field in
> an Eldar army...
>
> change.
I was thinking the other day. Take the Heavy Plasma on a marine Dread,
so you can stand still and fire on maximal each turn. Add the Twin
Lascannon on the other arm, and you have the ultimate tank buster.
HAHAHA
Al'Hafel
Joe Schulte
: Richard Orthuber wrote:
: >
: > Infinity wrote:
: >
: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
: > > >
: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
: > > > : >
: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
: > > > : >
: > > > : One Word Chaos
: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
: > > >
: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
: > >
: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
: >
: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
-Mer "Hmm...one hell of a conversion" idian
Alistair Hutton
<ki...@earth.execpc.com> writes
Armoured Rapid Firing Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior Damned Death
Company Deathwing Drednaughts, with Ablative Armour'
--
Alistair Hutton says this should cause a few rules debates
Life is good and Life goes on
Remove NAESPAM to e-mail me
Jonas Whitespore
<6t635t$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, ki...@earth.execpc.com (Joe Schulte)
wrote:
>Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
>: Richard Orthuber wrote:
>: >
>: > Infinity wrote:
>: >
>: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
>: > > >
>: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
>: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
>: > > > : >
>: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
>: > > > : >
>: > > > : One Word Chaos
>: > > >
>: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
>: > > >
>: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
>: > >
>: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
>: >
>: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
>
>: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
>
>Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
Hah! Seventeen words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
Dreadnought.'
Jonas "Out of breath" Whitespore
-
Free Agent:
ftp://ftp.net-connect.netpub/win/winsock-l/Windows95/News/fa32-111.exe
Read the RGMW FAQ. Use the subject line abbreviations.
http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/faqdir/rec.games.miniatures.warhammer.txt
The Daemon has many forms. You must know them all. You must tell the
Daemon from his disguises and root him out from the hidden places.
Trust no-one. Trust not even yourself. It is better to die in vain
than
to live an abomination. The zealous martyr is praised for his valour:
the craven and the unready are justly abhorred.
- The First Book of Indoctrinations
David Yalden-Thomson
Jonas Whitespore wrote:
> At precisely 9 Sep 1998 09:26:04 -0500, in
> <6t635t$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, ki...@earth.execpc.com (Joe Schulte)
> wrote:
>
> >Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
> >: Richard Orthuber wrote:
> >: >
> >: > Infinity wrote:
> >: >
> >: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
> >: > > >
> >: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> >: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> >: > > > : >
> >: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> >: > > > : >
> >: > > > : One Word Chaos
> >: > > >
> >: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> >: > > >
> >: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
> >: > >
> >: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
> >: >
> >: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
> >
> >: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> >: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
> >
> >Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> >Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
>
> Hah! Seventeen words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
> Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
> Dreadnought.'
>
> <snip>
>
How about eighteen words Eh?
Necron Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
Dreadnought
A few thoughts about impressive silliness.... It still would be frightening...
Kirk Macdonald
>
> At precisely 9 Sep 1998 09:26:04 -0500, in
> <6t635t$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, ki...@earth.execpc.com (Joe Schulte)
> wrote:
>
> >Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
> >: Richard Orthuber wrote:
> >: >
> >: > Infinity wrote:
> >: >
> >: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
> >: > > >
> >: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> >: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> >: > > > : >
> >: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> >: > > > : >
> >: > > > : One Word Chaos
> >: > > >
> >: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> >: > > >
> >: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
> >: > >
> >: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
> >: >
> >: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
> >
> >: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> >: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
> >
> >Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> >Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
>
> Hah! Seventeen words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
> Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
> Dreadnought.'
>
'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior Damned Death
Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor Dreadnought with Assault Cannon,
Storm Shield, Cyclone Launchers, Chaos Terminator Armor and Mark of
Khorne.'
--
Kirk "Millenium Hand and Shrimp!" Macdonald
Reply to : hag...@NOCHEESEgte.net - Remove NOCHEESE from my address to
reply
These are my own opinions and do not reflect those of The Boeing Co.
Alien164
Schulte) writes:
>
>Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
>: Richard Orthuber wrote:
>: >
>: > Infinity wrote:
>: >
>: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
>: > > >
>: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
>: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
>: > > > : >
>: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
>: > > > : >
>: > > > : One Word Chaos
>: > > >
>: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
>: > > >
>: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
>: > >
>: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
>: >
>: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
>
>: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
>
>Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
Twenty-five words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts with Storm Shield, Power Field,
Assault Cannon Cyclone Missile Launcher'
Alie...@aol.com
-insert supercheese here-
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Alien164
hfx.Removethis.andara.com> writes:
>How about eighteen words Eh?
>Necron Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
>Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
>Dreadnought
>
>A few thoughts about impressive silliness.... It still would be
>frightening...
>
>
Nah, the Necron part tones it down a little bit, and brings it down to the
cheesiness of a Gretchin.
Alie...@aol.com
-insert catchy phrase here-
Jason Gustaves
> > the price of the Avatar but I tell you what, I have always had a very difficult
> > time killing the Avatar for one simple reason, he can be screened by guardians.
> > Even a tooled up Chaos lord can't match this guy, especially when he is flanked
> > by two squads of banshees and wraithguard with 3 squads of guardians to soak up
> > fire.
> >
> See, to me that's just cheesy. The Avatar is the same size as the
> Dreadnought, and it's just common sense that it should be subject to the
> same targetting rules. Now, I realize it isn't an official rule, but a
> some what official rule is that since the Avatar is treated in several
> instances as a Daemon (regarding Force Weapons and other such items), then
> it might be possible to apply the targetting rule as well.
>
> I'm not saying that it is that way, just that I believe it should be that
> way.
>
> mail to: shr...@wam.umd.edu
> http://www.wam.umd.edu/~shrike
>
> "Poit! Zort! Narffff...." - From the collected sayings of Pinky
>
> Join the fight against SPAM! Visit http://www.cauce.org and lend your
> support!
In both the Tyranid Codex and the Chaos Codex, they go over the
Monstrous sized targets. The Avatar is one.
Therefore, you may target the nearest Eldar man-sized model, vehicle, or
Avatar. Therefore, no-one I know takes an Avatar, as he is blown away
the first turn!
Party on, Wayne!
Al'Hafel
Nazdreg89
>Nah, the Necron part tones it down a little bit, and brings it down to the
>cheesiness of a Gretchin.
Hah! I've got a grot with Eavy Armor, Powerfist, Sword, and a Refractor Field
riding around on a Cyboar!!! Last game he killed 2 terminators!!!
------------------
I received a copy of 40k 3ed wrapped around an ork head. Old wargamer message,
"Luca Ironskull sleeps with da squats."
ICQ: 14401247
Brian Schenck
> > See, to me that's just cheesy. The Avatar is the same size as the
> > Dreadnought, and it's just common sense that it should be subject to the
> > same targetting rules. Now, I realize it isn't an official rule, but a
> > some what official rule is that since the Avatar is treated in several
> > instances as a Daemon (regarding Force Weapons and other such items), then
> > it might be possible to apply the targetting rule as well.
> >
> > I'm not saying that it is that way, just that I believe it should be that
> > way.
> >
> In both the Tyranid Codex and the Chaos Codex, they go over the
> Monstrous sized targets. The Avatar is one.
>
> Therefore, you may target the nearest Eldar man-sized model, vehicle, or
> Avatar. Therefore, no-one I know takes an Avatar, as he is blown away
> the first turn!
>
Unfortunately, the Avatar is on neither of those lists. And, a strict
interpretation of the rules makes the Avatar a non-monstrous, non-large
target.
DGRA5
>
> Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
>
> > The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> > relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> > Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> > Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> > Space Marines.
>
> Eldar, but definately with CSM's.) Heavy bolters or autocannons? Heavy
> bolters put out more fire, cost less, but tend to jam more and lack an
> autocannon's range and punch. Autocannons can realistically be used
> against light to medium vehicles...heavy bolters can't, unless there's
> an exposed crewman. I guess it really depends on who you're fighting.
> I try to include a few of both, but I tend to favor the autocannon,
> especially against marines -- it hits hard enough to drop them reliably,
> but without overkilling, and it'll kill any vehicle up to (and
> including) Rhino variants, if need be. A Reaper's great because you get
> the best of both worlds without too much of a price hike, PLUS you get
> the extra attack in HtH.
Sorry no extra dice in HtH with the reaper, the rules clearly say only
combi weapons count for that, the big power blade thing is just for
decoration.
Dave Graves
JasonALang
---------------------------------------------------------
No mercy, no remorse. Just kill.
For every battle honour, a thousand heros die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
-From the collected sayings of St. Jason of Huale ..... Softest Man on the NG
JasonALang
<lmau...@dowco.com> writes:
>> Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
>
>You laugh.
>I've seen it.
>It's very, very bad.
So have I. Worse the guy painted them in Testors gold and green.
And used the Assault Cannon/Cyclone combo...
Despoiler
Aspect Warrior Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
Dreadnought Whiriwind
Hee hee, I got 18 words!
--
"If the oceans made made... who came up with love?"
Havoc Fusiliers Battlezone clan
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9823/bzone/
The Black Hulk
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9823/index.html
Jonas Whitespore
<199809100814...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jason...@aol.com
(JasonALang) wrote:
>Two words: Please stop.
One word: No.
Jonas "Cycle" Whitespore
Paul C Duggan
: Twenty-five words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
: Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts with Storm Shield, Power Field,
: Assault Cannon Cyclone Missile Launcher'
What about the Penal Frateris Snotling Scout Militia Cultists?
--
"I am an impure thinker. I am hurt, swayed, shaken, | paul + | +
elated, disillusioned, shocked, comforted, and I | --|--
have to transmit my mental experiences lest I die." | + | +
-- Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy | pdu...@world.std.com
Brian Schenck
> At precisely 10 Sep 1998 08:14:42 GMT, in
> <199809100814...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jason...@aol.com
> (JasonALang) wrote:
>
> >Two words: Please stop.
> One word: No.
>
Not even a word: !
Brian Schenck
> Alien164 (alie...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Twenty-five words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> : Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts with Storm Shield, Power Field,
> : Assault Cannon Cyclone Missile Launcher'
>
> What about the Penal Frateris Snotling Scout Militia Cultists?
>
Hee hee hee... he said "Penal".
Kemnitzer,Trollman
<DG...@student.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>> No argument here. It's a dilemma I face frequently. (Not so with
>> Eldar, but definately with CSM's.) Heavy bolters or autocannons? Heavy
>> bolters put out more fire, cost less, but tend to jam more and lack an
>> autocannon's range and punch. Autocannons can realistically be used
>> against light to medium vehicles...heavy bolters can't, unless there's
>> an exposed crewman. I guess it really depends on who you're fighting.
>> I try to include a few of both, but I tend to favor the autocannon,
>> especially against marines -- it hits hard enough to drop them reliably,
>> but without overkilling, and it'll kill any vehicle up to (and
>> including) Rhino variants, if need be. A Reaper's great because you get
>> the best of both worlds without too much of a price hike, PLUS you get
>> the extra attack in HtH.
>Snip
>Sorry no extra dice in HtH with the reaper, the rules clearly say only
>combi weapons count for that, the big power blade thing is just for
>decoration.
>Dave Graves
As embarassing as it is, the Reaper Autocannon does indeed
grant an extra attack die. Furthermore, being as it is a move AND fire
weapon, it can be used in close combat against vehicles (with an armor
penetration of 8 + 2D6 + D20).
Check the entry for the Reaper Autocannon, not the
combi-weapon.
Frank
Who would gladly pay 2 less points for a Reaper Autocannon which
didn't come with h-t-h saw blades on it.
"Sgt., as long as I have a charge left in my gun, there is no way in
hell that I am using that bayonette!"
-annonymous WWI soldier.
Joe Schulte
: Alien164 (alie...@aol.com) wrote:
: : Twenty-five words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
: : Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts with Storm Shield, Power Field,
: : Assault Cannon Cyclone Missile Launcher'
: What about the Penal Frateris Snotling Scout Militia Cultists?
So, we've gone from "Ultimate cheese units" to "Ultimate sacrifical
units"? Cool.
Don't forget to add Frenzon in there somewhere...
-Mer "Drugs are bad, 'kay?" idian
Odin Thorson
and a good one if you like more than two shot in a game...
Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:25:07 -0400, Brian Schenck
> <shr...@stopspam.wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Kemnitzer,Trollman wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:16:45 -0400, Brian Schenck <shr...@wam.umd.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >> However, assuming that the to-hit roll
> >> was a success, here is how the Autocannon, the Reaper Autocannon, the
> >> Assault Cannon and the Heavy Bolter match up (assuming that you hit
> >> marines):
> >>
> >You know, I'm not surprised that someone would go and do it. Although, I
> >think a few people were probably interested. Thanks. (And no, I'm not
> >being sarcastic)
>
> Thank you. Actually, it isn't that hard because it's just a
> series of probabilities rolled on a D6. That means that with a
> scientific calculator which can keep track of a lot of division, its
> just a matter of checking your work and doing it in the right order.
>
> That whole chart took me less than 4 minutes. :)
>
> >> Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
> >> Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
> >> R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
> >> H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
> >> AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
> >>
> >> *the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
> >> its chance of jamming.
> >>
> >> Looking at this chart, it really makes you wonder about the pricing on
> >> these weapons, until you take into consideration Armor Penetration:
> >>
> >> Average Pen. Min Pen 10+ pen chance
> >> Asscann 17 10 100%
> >> R AutoC 15 10 100%
> >> H Bolter 11 7 75%
> >> AutoCan 15 10 100%
> >>
> >> The Heavy Bolter, while probably the best deal, has a
> >> relatively crappy armor penetration, and will take out relatively less
> >> Wraitguard and substantially less vehicles. Also note that the Reaper
> >> Autocannon really is that good, it is the best trick of the Chaos
> >> Space Marines.
>
> >Yeah. I'd honestly think, the Autocannon is a good all around weapon for
> >the troops that get it. If you take Marines, then you have to choose
> >between the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon (well, not really, considering
> >you also have to choose two different troop types).
>
> I'm sort of dissapointed by the autocannon. A strong case can
> be made that you are better off splitting between lascannons (better
> against big targets) and heavy bolters (better against small targets).
> I'm not sure what to do about it, as it depends largely on the force
> composition of your enemies (Autocannons REALLY shine against Nurgle
> troops, btw, where they continue to wound on a 2+).
>
> >I'm not wrong in thinking the Reaper gets to ignore a jam right?
>
> Um.... sort-of. The Reaper Autocannon gets to re-roll a
> sustained fire die. The above chart assumes that this ability is only
> used to re-roll a jam. It can also be used to reroll a 1 result,
> thereby noticably increasing its already good ROF in exchange for a
> whole lot of danger. I'm not sure if anyone actually does this (except
> maybe on the last turn), so I left this off of the chart.
>
> >> >Then again, I would also assume you might have problems against Assault
> >> >Cannons. Except for the range, they have you outclassed in both fire rate
> >> >and strength.
> >>
> >> The Reaper Autocannon is usually better, especially for the
> >> price (37 vs 45 points), see above.
>
> >Oh definitely. The biggest disadvantage to the Assault Cannon is a
> >relatively short range, which makes it better to get in close with. The
> >Reaper has a better range, and as you've said, the price is good too.
>
> I find that the biggest disadvantage of the assault cannon is
> that it jams 42% of he time, except on Dreadnoughts (where it gets
> about an 8% jam rate, a vast improvement). But of course, YMMV. I
> personally object to paying out 45 points for a weapon which is only
> usable in half the game (but people go on using cyclone missile
> launchers, so what do I know?).
>
Odin Thorson
Kirk Macdonald wrote:
> Jonas Whitespore wrote:
> >
> > At precisely 9 Sep 1998 09:26:04 -0500, in
> > <6t635t$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, ki...@earth.execpc.com (Joe Schulte)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
> > >: Richard Orthuber wrote:
> > >: >
> > >: > Infinity wrote:
> > >: >
> > >: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
> > >: > > >
> > >: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
> > >: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
> > >: > > > : >
> > >: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
> > >: > > > : >
> > >: > > > : One Word Chaos
> > >: > > >
> > >: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
> > >: > > >
> > >: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
> > >: > >
> > >: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
> > >: >
> > >: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
> > >
> > >: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> > >: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
> > >
> > >Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
> > >Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
> >
> > Hah! Seventeen words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
> > Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
> > Dreadnought.'
> >
> > Jonas "Out of breath" Whitespore
>
> Who's counting?
> 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior Damned Death
Liam Maughan
> > 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior Damned Death
> > Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor Dreadnought with Assault Cannon,
> > Storm Shield, Cyclone Launchers, Chaos Terminator Armor and Mark of
> > Khorne.'
You forgot "Culexus", "Ravenwing", "Phoenix Lord", "Avatar", "ANCESTOR
LORD", and "with quad-linked multi-meltas"
JasonALang
Whitespore) writes:
>>Two words: Please stop.
>One word: No.
Three words: Yes, or else.
Richard Orthuber
> In article <35f90ce8....@enews.newsguy.com>, edc...@newsguy.com (Jonas
> Whitespore) writes:
>
> >>Two words: Please stop.
> >One word: No.
> Three words: Yes, or else.
Four words: Yes, or else what?
Kemnitzer,Trollman
<ansc...@pop.slkc.uswest.net> wrote:
>you should include a line for the assault cannon using 2SFD as that is an option,
>and a good one if you like more than two shot in a game...
OK. <shrug>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> However, assuming that the to-hit roll
>> >> was a success, here is how the Autocannon, the Reaper Autocannon, the
>> >> Assault Cannon and the Heavy Bolter match up (assuming that you hit
>> >> marines):
>> >>
>> >You know, I'm not surprised that someone would go and do it. Although, I
>> >think a few people were probably interested. Thanks. (And no, I'm not
>> >being sarcastic)
>>
>> Thank you. Actually, it isn't that hard because it's just a
>> series of probabilities rolled on a D6. That means that with a
>> scientific calculator which can keep track of a lot of division, its
>> just a matter of checking your work and doing it in the right order.
>>
>> That whole chart took me less than 4 minutes. :)
>>
Hits Wound AP = Kills Jam Chance
Asscann 4.5 2+ 5- 3.125 42%*
R AutoC 3.5 2+ 5- 2.43 7.4%
H Bolter 3 3+ 4- 1.33 30.56%
AutoCan 1.5 2+ 5- 1.04 16.7%
2SF AsC 3 2+ 5- 2.08 30.56%
*the assault cannon has a .5% chance of exploding, included in
its chance of jamming.
Looks pretty inferior to the Reaper Autocannon when used in
that fashion. For my next trick, here is a comparison of marine kills
per point expended, assuming firing into light cover. Jams have been
recalibrated towards the chance to hit (if you miss, you don't jam):
Weapon: kills per point Jams:
Assault Cannon (Terminator Armor): .025 35.1%
Reaper Autocannon (Chaos Terminator): .021 4.9%
Heavy Bolter (Devastator): .0197 20.4%
Heavy Bolter (Deadeye Guardsmen): .0309* 17%
Autocannon (Devastator): .0126 11.1%
Assault Cannon (with 2SFD): .0167 25.5%
* in order to purchase an Imperial Guardsman with Deadeye and
a Heavy Bolter, you must also purchase one Guardsman with Deadeye and
NO heavy bolter. This guardsman can take over the Heavy Bolter or fire
independantly with a wussy flashlight. If counted into the price of
the weapon system, the kills per point expended drops to: .0195, but I
also didn't figure in the cost of the squad mates of the devastators,
etc.
Note also that the Assault Cannon really suffers next to the
other weapons if fired at targets in no cover, as it is the only
weapon on the chart fired above BS 5. That means that its kill and jam
rates remain unchanged when firing at penalty-less targets. Similarly,
the Guardsmen get better relative to the devastators when firing at
slow moving vehicles, not that you would want to with a heavy bolter.
:)
I'm not sure why you would limit the firing rate of your
Asscannons, except for superstitious reasons, as it seems to be rather
ineffective when used that way.
Frank
Jonas Whitespore
<35F96EFE...@pop.slkc.uswest.net>, Odin Thorson
<ansc...@pop.slkc.uswest.net> wrote:
>you forgot 'assassin'
No, the cheese stands alone.
>Kirk Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Jonas Whitespore wrote:
>> >
>> > At precisely 9 Sep 1998 09:26:04 -0500, in
>> > <6t635t$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, ki...@earth.execpc.com (Joe Schulte)
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >Robert Ansell (R.An...@ais.gu.edu.au) wrote:
>> > >: Richard Orthuber wrote:
>> > >: >
>> > >: > Infinity wrote:
>> > >: >
>> > >: > > Joe Schulte wrote:
>> > >: > > >
>> > >: > > > MRamos7 (mra...@aol.com) wrote:
>> > >: > > > : >cheese finally got to GW :)
>> > >: > > > : >
>> > >: > > > : >Two Words: Space Wolves...
>> > >: > > > : >
>> > >: > > > : One Word Chaos
>> > >: > > >
>> > >: > > > Three words: Chaos Space Wolves
>> > >: > > >
>> > >: > > > -Mer "Sometimes it's far too easy" idian
>> > >: > >
>> > >: > > Five words: Dark 'Space Wolf' Aspect Eldar
>> > >: >
>> > >: > Seven words, 'Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior.'
>> > >
>> > >: Forteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>> > >: Damned Death Company Dreadnaughts'
>> > >
>> > >Fifteen Words. 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior
>> > >Damned Death Company Deathwing Dreadnaughts'
>> >
>> > Hah! Seventeen words: 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf
>> > Aspect Warrior Damned Death Company Deathwing Grand Inquisitor
>> > Dreadnought.'
Jonas "D'oh!" Whitespore
JasonALang
writes:
>> >>Two words: Please stop.
>> >One word: No.
>> Three words: Yes, or else.
>
>Four words: Yes, or else what?
Five words: You don't want to know.
(Here we go again...)
pma...@banet.net
-Matthew Maggio
He's OK. really
Larry King
> Who's counting?
> 'Legion of the Dark Eldar Chaos Space Wolf Aspect Warrior Damned Death
> Storm Shield, Cyclone Launchers, Chaos Terminator Armor and Mark of
> Khorne.'
Gee, does that have a 2+ save on 3d6 or 2d2, or d6?
BWAHAHAHA
DireWolf
ra...@hotmail.com