[40K] Proposed Codex: Chaos Space Marines Changes?
Dan Kitchel
Well, I was looking over the proposal for the Dark Angels changes, and
liked what I saw. Is there a similar compilation for CSM's anywhere?
There's a fair amount of fixes/tweaks/point adjustments I'd like to see,
and I'm curious as to what ya'll think of it.
Thanks,
-Dan
Xaxier
"Dan Kitchel" <Rivi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3bcb0566...@news.mindspring.com...
No, because Dark Angel Changes are just going to be a White Dwarf Article,
while the new Chaos one going to be a full new codex.
David
Alasdair Sinclair
> liked what I saw. Is there a similar compilation for CSM's anywhere?
No.
> There's a fair amount of fixes/tweaks/point adjustments I'd like to see,
> and I'm curious as to what ya'll think of it.
I think that on the whole, the chaos codex for cult-based armies is very
competative, but that the undivided side of things is a touch lacking.
--
Alasdair Sinclair
3rd Pro
Civil Engineering
University of Canterbury
So the Commissar said, "Cheer up: it could be worse!" So we cheered
up. And it got worse.
Justin Gaskins
> I think that on the whole, the chaos codex for cult-based armies is very
> competative, but that the undivided side of things is a touch lacking.
You haven't seen many armies with Possessed-laden Rhinos and Raptors supported
by infiltrating heavy weapons teams, have you?
John Hwang
Except that there's nothing "special" or unique about this. The point is that
the are no MoCU units which can't be taken just as well by Culty armies. So
from that POV, MoCU is a bit underdeveloped. Especially as most of the Traitor
Legions fall in the MoCU category and are otherwise undifferentiated. Tho the
WD IA IW and NL articles help considerably.
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
Dan Kitchel
improving/tweaking chaos undivided. I'm not saying they aren't
competitive as is, but they could use a little fleshing out...
1.) The Chaos Undivided Icon is useless unless you're using demons,
which totally defeats the undivided theme. This is stupid, putting it
mildly. Perhaps giving it some type of shooting attack would be more
fitting? Anything but something back-biting...
2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
be great.
3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch? They could be like
15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
Oh well, just some ideas...
-Dan
On 16 Oct 2001 16:05:45 GMT, johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang)
wrote:
Matthew
> 3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
> chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
> Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch? They could be like
> 15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
> get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
FEARLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is an idea for them though.
Normal deamon stats, no bonus
1 shooty attack, blast, somehow linked to the number of deamons in the
unit, the +1 for summoning could be, enamy breaks and runs more than 1/2
possibal distance (to stop it being to easy to get) How's that?
--
Matthew
/"""""\
| - / |
/| | | |\
\| U |/
\ |===| /
\...../
Dan Kitchel
are NOT fearless, only greater demons are. The mention of fearlessness
for greater demons is listed in their special rules, but all I have in
my codex is the mention of their respective special rules (+1A, +1S,
etc.) for each respective cult, and it has no mention of lesser demons
being fearless in the army special rules section, either...
On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:18:18 +0100, Matthew <mat...@foweraker.com>
wrote:
Erik
Rivi...@mindspring.com says...
> 3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
> chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
> Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch? They could be like
> 15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
> get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
Isaac Tobin did some Undivided daemons for 40K2. You should still be
able to find them at The Nexus (http://www.aloha.com/~isaac/wh40k.htm).
Here's his Chaos Undivided page:
http://www.aloha.com/~isaac/chaos/undiv.htm
-Erik
--
Astral Projections
http://www.geocities.com/kaptingavrin
"Its all as cheesy as hell at the moment (is hell really cheesy?)..."
-Andy Chambers, 10/1/01
John Hwang
>1.) The Chaos Undivided Icon
I'd simply extend the range of the commander's Ld and/or re-roll effect.
>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
>weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
>be great.
Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
>chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
>Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch?
From a minor power of Chaos.
>They could be like
>15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
>get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
I'd definitely make them Fearless. But they'd still be pretty lame Daemons
compared with the rest. Obviously, they can't have +1S, +1T, +1A as these are
already taken. Nor should they shoot. But perhaps the choice of +1WS or +1I
would be appropriate.
OrpheusITU
news:20011017010901...@mb-mt.news.cs.com...
> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
<circumcised>
> >3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
> >chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
> >Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch?
>
> From a minor power of Chaos.
>
> >They could be like
> >15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
> >get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
>
> I'd definitely make them Fearless. But they'd still be pretty lame
Daemons
> compared with the rest. Obviously, they can't have +1S, +1T, +1A as
these are
> already taken. Nor should they shoot. But perhaps the choice of +1WS or
+1I
> would be appropriate.
So you're saying that BLuD AnGelZ are perfect MoCu demons? Kewl.
--
OrpheusITU
Vombatus Ursinus Newbius
RT Maitreya
> > already taken. Nor should they shoot. But perhaps the choice of +1WS or +1I
> > would be appropriate.
>
> So you're saying that BLuD AnGelZ are perfect MoCu demons? Kewl.
I'd say it's a good time to fuck with Portent.
RTM
Alasdair Sinclair
I must confess, Raptors are not something I see a lot of; but Possessed
are very unpredictable. I guess though I should be more specific; I play
a shooty chaos force, and until the advent of Iron Warriors, which
improved matters a lot, I could not compete with equally shooty vanilla
marines, because they don't run away and my chaos does. I'm not
convinced that a close-assault based undivided army could take a
close-assault marine sub-codex based just on list merits either.
Craig Little
RT Maitreya <hy...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:3BCE00A2...@speakeasy.org...
"What're we gonna do tonight RTM?" - Innocent Newbie
"Same thing we do every night, newbie, try to spooge over Portent" - RTM
RT Maitreya
> "What're we gonna do tonight RTM?" - Innocent Newbie
> "Same thing we do every night, newbie, try to spooge over Portent" - RTM
Are you thinking the same thing *I'm* thinking, newbie?
RTM
Craig Little
Dan Kitchel
wrote:
> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>>1.) The Chaos Undivided Icon
>
>I'd simply extend the range of the commander's Ld and/or re-roll effect.
-An even better idea...
>
>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
>>weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
>>be great.
>
>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>
>>3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
>>chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
>>Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch?
>
>From a minor power of Chaos.
-Works for me.
>
>>They could be like
>>15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
>>get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
>
>I'd definitely make them Fearless. But they'd still be pretty lame Daemons
>compared with the rest. Obviously, they can't have +1S, +1T, +1A as these are
>already taken. Nor should they shoot. But perhaps the choice of +1WS or +1I
>would be appropriate.
-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
to tie the squad up for a bit.
-Dan
John Hwang
>"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>> >3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
>> >chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
>> >Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch?
>>
>> From a minor power of Chaos.
>>
>> >They could be like
>> >15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
>> >get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
>>
>> I'd definitely make them Fearless. But they'd still be pretty lame
>>Daemons compared with the rest. Obviously, they can't have +1S,
>> +1T, +1A as these are already taken. Nor should they shoot. But
>>perhaps the choice of +1WS or +1I would be appropriate.
>
>So you're saying that BLuD AnGelZ are perfect MoCu demons? Kewl.
Heh.
But lessee: The MoCU Daemons would be Fearless, not Ld8 w/ ATSKNF; S4 not S4
but S5 charging; WS5 or I5 instead of WS4 or I4 but I5 when charging; 5+I
instead of 3+ saves; no shooting instead of Bolters or BP&CCW.
But yeah, aside from those differences, that works fine! :P
John Hwang
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
>>>weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
>>>be great.
>>
>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>
>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
>>>3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
>>>chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
>>>Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch?
>>
>>From a minor power of Chaos.
>
>-Works for me.
>
>>>They could be like
>>>15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
>>>get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
>>
>>I'd definitely make them Fearless. But they'd still be pretty lame Daemons
>>compared with the rest. Obviously, they can't have +1S, +1T, +1A as these
>>are already taken. Nor should they shoot. But perhaps the choice of
>>+1WS or +1I would be appropriate.
>
>-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
>other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
>The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
>to tie the squad up for a bit.
Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
Really SICK fog
> >-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
> >other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
> >The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
> >to tie the squad up for a bit.
>
> Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>
> The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
How about Squats? It seems many people have an overabundance of these
unused minis...
--
b
Dan Kitchel
wrote:
>Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>
>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
>>>>weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
>>>>be great.
>>>
>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>>
>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>
>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
attack...
>
<snip>
>>
>>-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
>>other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
>>The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
>>to tie the squad up for a bit.
>
>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>
>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
Dan Kitchel
<no_spa...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>> > I think that on the whole, the chaos codex for cult-based armies is very
>> > competative, but that the undivided side of things is a touch lacking.
>> You haven't seen many armies with Possessed-laden Rhinos and Raptors supported
>> by infiltrating heavy weapons teams, have you?
>
>I must confess, Raptors are not something I see a lot of; but Possessed
>are very unpredictable. I guess though I should be more specific; I play
>a shooty chaos force, and until the advent of Iron Warriors, which
>improved matters a lot, I could not compete with equally shooty vanilla
>marines, because they don't run away and my chaos does.
-Well, you have the same amount of firepower that a vanilla SM would
with a few different weapons thrown in for variety. It would really come
down to the dice as far as casualties/break tests went there...
>'m not
>convinced that a close-assault based undivided army could take a
>close-assault marine sub-codex based just on list merits either.
-Well, considering all a vanilla SM army can take in the way of all-CC
squads is veterans, scouts, assault marines, and command squads, I think
chaos would have the edge. Spiky bits, basic squads being able to take a
BP/CCW combo, veterans, raptors, dreadnaughts,(which are slightly better
in HTH base and have the capacity to be a LOT better in HTH depending on
their chart reactions) and cultists for cheap mass make them pretty
competitive...heh. Short of bugs, blood angels, other CSM's, and Orks, I
haven't had much to worry about from other armies matching up to my guys
in HTH.
-Dan
John Hwang
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>>Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>>>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>>>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>>
>>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the
>>>>>demon weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?)
>>>>>and stuff would be great.
>>>>
>>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>>>
>>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>>
>>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
>
>-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
>you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
>vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
>attack...
Nah. Just increase the cost. 40-50 points would be about right, as it's only
*one* attack.
>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more
>>control.
>>
>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>
>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
Hmm... Perhaps we should break out StD and roll the dice...
Blue Raja
>>>-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
>>>other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
>>>The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
>>>to tie the squad up for a bit.
>>
>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>>
>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>
>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
Sounds like a variation on Tzeentchian daemons.
--
The Blue Raja
Now with 100% less spam!
"If anything, I think the NG would collectively describe you as "the village
idiot", rather than a "regular"." - John Hwang to Erik
[Tag]us in extremus
RGMW FAQ - 1/3 of your daily calcium requirement
http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Dan Kitchel
-Eh, I don't think demons should be THAT hideous/ugly. :P
-Dan
>--
>b
>
>
Dan Kitchel
<the_bl...@dingoblue.net.au.spamless> wrote:
>Dan Kitchel wrote in message <3bcfd3ea...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>>-They might be "lame" in the sense that they're not as powerful as the
>>>>other demons and even generic, but I'd definately take a squad of them.
>>>>The summon+assault on the same turn dealie is nasty, even if it's just
>>>>to tie the squad up for a bit.
>>>
>>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>>>
>>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>>
>>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
>
>Sounds like a variation on Tzeentchian daemons.
-Well, given all tzeentchian demons have no neck and aren't exactly
anorexic, I dunno. All the good demon stereotypes have been taken by the
cults, so... How about big floating mouths with tentacles around their
orifice? No, that's too generic, too...shucks.
-Dan
Dan Kitchel
>>>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the
>>>>>>demon weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?)
>>>>>>and stuff would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>>>>
>>>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>>>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>>>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>>>
>>>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
>>
>>-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
>>you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
>>vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
>>attack...
>
>Nah. Just increase the cost. 40-50 points would be about right, as it's only
>*one* attack.
Yeah, but...how many people would use something that expensive? I know I
wouldn't... I'd much rather have something cheaper and less broken in
the hand of my chaos lord.
Blue Raja
>>>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>>>>
>>>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>>>
>>>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>>>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>>>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
>>
>>Sounds like a variation on Tzeentchian daemons.
>
>-Well, given all tzeentchian demons have no neck
Horrors have necks, don't they? Not sure about Flamers.
Although I'm quite sure that Discs don't.
>and aren't exactly
>anorexic, I dunno. All the good demon stereotypes have been taken by the
>cults,
That's quite true.
Khorne: Nasty killing things with horns.
Tzeentch: Floaty bird things or long limbed, warped thingys.
Slaanesh: Things with big claws.
Nurgle: boated, pestilent things.
Undivided: ???
Horns and tails seem a bit Luciferesque; Also, there would need to be both
infantry and cavalry types.
Some type of winged generic daemon could be a possibility, but then you'd
have to explain why it doesn't fly.
>so... How about big floating mouths with tentacles around their
>orifice? No, that's too generic, too...shucks.
A bit sexual for the b1Ud 4n9e1z k1dd33z too...
John Hwang
>>>>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the
>>>>>>>demon weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?)
>>>>>>>and stuff would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>>>>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>>>>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
>>>
>>>-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
>>>you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
>>>vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
>>>attack...
>>
>>Nah. Just increase the cost. 40-50 points would be about right, as it's
>>only *one* attack.
>
>Yeah, but...how many people would use something that expensive? I know I
>wouldn't... I'd much rather have something cheaper and less broken in
>the hand of my chaos lord.
But that's the point! Sure, it's huge and expensive. But it's unique to MoCU.
And that makes it cool!
Dan Kitchel
<the_bl...@dingoblue.net.au.spamless> wrote:
>Dan Kitchel wrote in message <3bd00269...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more control.
>>>>>
>>>>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>>>>
>>>>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>>>>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>>>>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
>>>
>>>Sounds like a variation on Tzeentchian daemons.
>>
>>-Well, given all tzeentchian demons have no neck
>
>Horrors have necks, don't they? Not sure about Flamers.
>Although I'm quite sure that Discs don't.
-Um, horrors are the things where their heads are part of their
torso's...
>
>>and aren't exactly
>>anorexic, I dunno. All the good demon stereotypes have been taken by the
>>cults,
>
>That's quite true.
>Khorne: Nasty killing things with horns.
>Tzeentch: Floaty bird things or long limbed, warped thingys.
>Slaanesh: Things with big claws.
>Nurgle: boated, pestilent things.
>Undivided: ???
>Horns and tails seem a bit Luciferesque; Also, there would need to be both
>infantry and cavalry types.
>Some type of winged generic daemon could be a possibility, but then you'd
>have to explain why it doesn't fly.
>
>>so... How about big floating mouths with tentacles around their
>>orifice? No, that's too generic, too...shucks.
>
>A bit sexual for the b1Ud 4n9e1z k1dd33z too...
-Oh well, just an idea...
-Dan
RT Maitreya
> >convinced that a close-assault based undivided army could take a
> >close-assault marine sub-codex based just on list merits either.
>
> -Well, considering all a vanilla SM army can take in the way of all-CC
> squads is veterans, scouts, assault marines, and command squads, I think
> chaos would have the edge.
I think you missed the use of the phrase
"close-assault marine sub-codex"
That means: BlUdAngLeZ or Spays wulfs.
RTM
Rob Fungsang
> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
> >johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> >>Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
> >>>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> >>>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the
> >>>>>demon weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?)
> >>>>>and stuff would be great.
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
> >>>
> >>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
> >>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
> >>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
> >>
> >>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
> >
> >-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
> >you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
> >vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
> >attack...
>
> Nah. Just increase the cost. 40-50 points would be about right, as it's
only
> *one* attack.
>
that it's only 1 attack?
RF
Qrab
Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
> Well, I'd really like to see some minor things in the way of
> improving/tweaking chaos undivided. I'm not saying they aren't
> competitive as is, but they could use a little fleshing out...
>
> 1.) The Chaos Undivided Icon is useless unless you're using demons,
> which totally defeats the undivided theme. This is stupid, putting it
> mildly. Perhaps giving it some type of shooting attack would be more
> fitting? Anything but something back-biting...
>
> 2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the demon
> weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?) and stuff would
> be great.
Daemon armor would be a nice addition too. You know the kind that would give Chaos
an Invulnerable save...
> 3.) I'll probably be yelled at for this, and it's probably against the
> chaos fluff, but has anyone ever considered Chaos Undivided demons?
> Demons made from the raw power of chaos or somesuch? They could be like
> 15 pts., and their special dealie could be in line with the MoCU, they
> get to re-roll failed morale checks. Just a pipe dream...
This is something that I'd thought of awhile back, the Undivided Daemons that is.
Didn't give it too much thought 'cause I couldn't think of a model type to fit the
bill. I do think that it'd be a nice addition to the list.
Other changes:
Obliterators - reduce cost, give Terminator Invulnerable save, increase weapon
options.
Possessed - allow at least one re-roll for dupes on the chart.
I had thought of others some time back, but have since forgotten them.
Be seeing you-
Qrab
John Hwang
>John Hwang <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>> >johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>> >>Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>> >>>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>> >>>> Rivi...@mindspring.com (Dan Kitchel) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>>2.) Actual rewards for chaos undivided. Seeing the return of the
>> >>>>>demon weapon would be nice (Similar to a force weapon, maybe?)
>> >>>>>and stuff would be great.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Sure, that would be pretty cool.
>> >>>
>> >>>-Right, I loved the old demon weapons in 2nd. edition, and the
>> >>>soul-sucking dealie would make it interesting enough for some people
>> >>>(like myself) to consider over a dual LC lord/champ.
>> >>
>> >>Actually, I'd just have it follow the rules for Abbadon's Daemon Sword.
>> >
>> >-Ouch, that's going a bit overboard. Against regular models, if it hits
>> >you and you don't have an invulnerable save, you're dead. If it hits
>> >vehicles, it's auto-penetrating. Even considering it only gets 1
>> >attack...
>>
>> Nah. Just increase the cost. 40-50 points would be about
>> right, as it's only *one* attack.
>
>Try 70-80. That thing can easily kill even a Wraithlord.
Yes, so can an Eversor.
I wouldn't cost things always assuming their best target (expensive monster
without invulnerable save) would be available.
Besides, giving MoCU an anti-monster weapon doesn't seem so bad. Just wait
until they fight against IG or Orks or even Eldar Guardians ... Swing and hit
an 8-pt Guardian. Whoopee...
>Who gives a damn that it's only 1 attack?
Still has to hit. If he misses, the WL is likely to return the favor with
Instant Death the other way due to his DNCCWs. In which case, that's a 150+ pt
model down the tubes.
I'd go 50-60 if you really think it's abusable. But as something to kill
mega-characters and mega-monsters, I think this is a good thing.
John Hwang
Hey! What about the Templars? They're close-assualt types, too!
Craig Little
> RT Maitreya hy...@speakeasy.org wrote:
> >Dan Kitchel wrote:
> >
> >> >convinced that a close-assault based undivided army could take a
> >> >close-assault marine sub-codex based just on list merits either.
> >>
> >> -Well, considering all a vanilla SM army can take in the way of all-CC
> >> squads is veterans, scouts, assault marines, and command squads, I
think
> >> chaos would have the edge.
> >
> >I think you missed the use of the phrase
> >"close-assault marine sub-codex"
> >
> >That means: BlUdAngLeZ or Spays wulfs.
>
> Hey! What about the Templars? They're close-assualt types, too!
But you can make a SBTAFH with plascannon/plasgun 5 man tac squads...
Rob Fungsang
on a 3+, period. Nevermind if the player decides to go overboard and back
that up with a powerfist. An eversor barely has odds that good for causing
2 wounds.
> I wouldn't cost things always assuming their best target (expensive
monster
> without invulnerable save) would be available.
>
But the odds don't significantly drop for any target, save a DE lord
w/shadow field.
> Besides, giving MoCU an anti-monster weapon doesn't seem so bad. Just
wait
> until they fight against IG or Orks or even Eldar Guardians ... Swing and
hit
> an 8-pt Guardian. Whoopee...
>
That's a cop-out. Characters avoid HtH with Orks. IG and Guardians aren't
even a credible threat. Assaults with Power/Aspect armored units are the
issue, and in those cases he gets his other 4-5 attacks with his power
weapon. You'll never see just a BP/daemon weapon combo.
> >Who gives a damn that it's only 1 attack?
>
> Still has to hit. If he misses, the WL is likely to return the favor with
> Instant Death the other way due to his DNCCWs. In which case, that's a
150+ pt
> model down the tubes.
>
No, it *only* has to hit, which is the problem.
> I'd go 50-60 if you really think it's abusable. But as something to kill
> mega-characters and mega-monsters, I think this is a good thing.
No one else has it that easy. Give me back vortex and stasis grenades
first.
RF
Blue Raja
>>>>>>Sure. The point is that the MoCU Daemons should represent more
control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The biggest problem is figuring out what they should look like.
>>>>>
>>>>>-How about something really skeletal/anorexic with sunken eyes, two
>>>>>small horns emerging from the forehead, a long, barbed tail, and
>>>>>tentacles instead of arms? Who knows...
>>>>
>>>>Sounds like a variation on Tzeentchian daemons.
>>>
>>>-Well, given all tzeentchian demons have no neck
>>
>>Horrors have necks, don't they? Not sure about Flamers.
>>Although I'm quite sure that Discs don't.
>
>-Um, horrors are the things where their heads are part of their
>torso's...
Ok I just looked up some pics and you're right. I've never payed much
attention to them really.
--
The Blue Raja
Now with 100% less spam!
"We aren't real organized, but we did do some
good plays and leet moves. Overall, we got tooled." - RTM
RT Maitreya
> >"close-assault marine sub-codex"
> >
> >That means: BlUdAngLeZ or Spays wulfs.
>
> Hey! What about the Templars? They're close-assualt types, too!
Yeah, yeah. I remembered them right after I hit "send".
It wasn't worth my trouble to amend my post since I knew
someone was about to come along and do it for me.
RTM
GI Hoe
Spiky bits, basic squads being able to take a
> BP/CCW combo, veterans, raptors, dreadnaughts,(which are slightly better
> in HTH base and have the capacity to be a LOT better in HTH depending on
> their chart reactions)
That's the problem: depending upon the chart reactions of a chaos
dreadnaught.
I've used them in a bunch of tournaments, and there's nothing like
moving 6", firing the plama cannon, only to have it fire frenzy, kill
a few orks but be ROOTED to the spot now. The orks turn: they move
around the rear, assault and kill me by attacking the rear armour.
aarrghhhh!
I think the fire frenzy should be redone to make the dreads more than
a colourful curiousity. Maybe have cult specific dreads, like Space
Marines do (Death company dread, Furioso, Venerable, vanilla, etc...).
Have a Slaneshi dread that loves to fire frenzy. have a Khorne one
with two AXES of Khorne, two meltaguns, etc...
John Hwang
Again, you can't assume that nice, handy 120+ pt WLs will always be around for
the Daemon Sword to use on. A 40-50 pt model is a better assumption.
And backing with a 25-pt PF which strikes last? That's 65-75 points in weapons
alone. Again, if the Daemon weapon doesn't hit, that 100+ pt Character is dead
in the return strike.
>> I wouldn't cost things always assuming their best target (expensive
>>monster without invulnerable save) would be available.
>>
>But the odds don't significantly drop for any target, save a DE lord
>w/shadow field.
Farseer, Warlock, any SoB Character, etc. The rest are pretty cheap.
I'd revise to 50-60 but 70-80 just seems excessive.
>> Besides, giving MoCU an anti-monster weapon doesn't seem so bad. Just
>>wait until they fight against IG or Orks or even Eldar Guardians ...
>>Swing and hit an 8-pt Guardian. Whoopee...
>
>That's a cop-out. Characters avoid HtH with Orks. IG and Guardians aren't
>even a credible threat. Assaults with Power/Aspect armored units are the
>issue, and in those cases he gets his other 4-5 attacks with his power
>weapon. You'll never see just a BP/daemon weapon combo.
OK, so 55-65 or 65-75 in weapons. Still not cheap.
>> >Who gives a damn that it's only 1 attack?
>>
>> Still has to hit. If he misses, the WL is likely to return the favor with
>> Instant Death the other way due to his DNCCWs. In which case,
>> that's a 150+ pt model down the tubes.
>
>No, it *only* has to hit, which is the problem.
It's twice as good as an Agonizer, so roughly twice the cost is fair.
>> I'd go 50-60 if you really think it's abusable. But as something to kill
>> mega-characters and mega-monsters, I think this is a good thing.
>
>No one else has it that easy. Give me back vortex and stasis grenades
>first.
Again, compare with Agonizer.
John Hwang
Be thankful that there are people who help catch these things for you. :)
Alasdair Sinclair
> >are very unpredictable. I guess though I should be more specific; I play
> >a shooty chaos force, and until the advent of Iron Warriors, which
> >improved matters a lot, I could not compete with equally shooty vanilla
> >marines, because they don't run away and my chaos does.
> -Well, you have the same amount of firepower that a vanilla SM would
> with a few different weapons thrown in for variety. It would really come
> down to the dice as far as casualties/break tests went there...
Not true. Vannilla marines have access to Dev squads with more heavy
weapons, and weapon options like whirlwinds, vindicators and plasma
cannons in their Dev squads. Plus, marines might take some casualties,
and fall back, but ATSKNF means they're back to shooting next turn, if
you're very lucky, they might have run out of range, but other than
that..
> -Well, considering all a vanilla SM army can take in the way of all-CC
> squads is veterans, scouts, assault marines, and command squads, I think
> chaos would have the edge. Spiky bits, basic squads being able to take a
> BP/CCW combo, veterans, raptors, dreadnaughts,(which are slightly better
> in HTH base and have the capacity to be a LOT better in HTH depending on
> their chart reactions) and cultists for cheap mass make them pretty
> competitive...heh. Short of bugs, blood angels, other CSM's, and Orks, I
> haven't had much to worry about from other armies matching up to my guys
> in HTH.
I know that. Undivided CSMs should beat ultramarines in HTH, but should
they beat black templars? Most of the advantages of undivided chaos in
hand-to-hand are given to templars as well, or blood angels, or space
wolves. I'm not convinced that based on list merits, chaos undivided
would do better in HTH than those specialist assault marine armies.