Review - Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Long)
P Bowles
reviewing GW game releases with this - the first genuinely revised Codex (as
opposed to the original with a few CA fixes thrown in) and the first to
incorporate all its sub-lists into one volume. I won't go into any great detail
on individual pieces of wargear - there are a lot of them, for a start, and
secondly the format of the book - with Undivided wargear at the front between
the Armoury and the army list and the rest at the back in Power-specific
'books' is so bad that I just can't be bothered, though I will more generally
discuss the wargear section. First bit of bad news - the typo curse hasn't been
cured. For example, a Chaos Spawn may in fact be a Daemon Spawn depending on
whether you believe the Armoury or the wargear list. More seriously, an
indirect-firing battlecannon has a range of either 36-60" (Defiler entry) or
36"-72" (Chaos summary) - you choose. There are also several references to the
reaper autocannon as distinct from the normal autocannon, including one in the
Slaanesh section which allows you to choose to replace either an autocannon or
a reaper autocannon with a blastmaster. All well and good so far - but there
are no rules or stats for a reaper autocannon. Thematically using the name is
all well and good, but when you do it for some autocannon but not for others
it's just confusing and makes me wonder whether there was actually an intention
to produce rules for this weapon that were accidentally omitted. Nor are there
any rules for the lightning claw, an irritating lapse as all other Imperial
wargear Chaos can take is included in the wargear descriptions.
INTRODUCTION
Overview - "there was this civil war and the Chaos Marines lost..."
Why collect a CSM army? - Because they're eeeeevillll (seriously, this is the
reason given though not in these words) - not like those WFB muscle-headed
wimps who wouldn't know evil if it came up and ate them.
A sidebar telling us that the rules here supercede Index Astartes rules - nice
to see it included here to prevent newbies from needing to ask which rules came
first; it's also nice that it points the interested in the direction of more
extensive Chaos fluff. What's in this book isn't bad, and it does briefly cover
each Legion, but it's not extensive even if there is more than in the last one.
THE HORUS HERESY
"There was this civil war and the Chaos Marines lost..." in more detail (though
not too much - the Heresy doesn't start until halfway down the second page of
the two-page piece). More interesting for me is the stuff on the start of the
Imperium beforehand - and finally, after a decade, the date for the Fall of the
Eldar is set. It happened eleven thousand years ago, the 'psychic shockwave'
that resulted freeing Terra from years of isolation caused by warp storms and
paving the way for the birth of the Imperium. Obviously whoever wrote this has
a better grasp of the 40k timeline than the author of the Necrubbish (although
in this version the Fall is rather later than speculations based on the RoC
books would have us believe).
THE WARP
In some ways a more interesting piece - all we really know about the warp is
that spirits and warp entities live there. This piece tries to go into more
detail and to give it a pseudo-scientific footing as an extra dimension. It
also details the histories of the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, ending with
the story of the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs.
LET THE GALAXY BURN
Very brief histories of the Black Crusades, the First War of Armageddon (nice
to see GW remembering that there's more to that setting than Orks) and the
Gothic War, followed by a couple of storypieces.
SPECIAL RULES
Daemon summoning as in the WD CA. The other 'rules' (the 'There can be only
one' rule is gone) are just general comments on certain classes of
wargear/ability - Marks (all but Nurgle's changed substantially - more below),
psychic powers (there are three major powers - one Tzeentch, two Undivided and
minor powers for Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh) and Daemon weapons (each turn
in which they wound someone, the bearer takes an Ld test and if he fails rolls
on the Perils of the Warp table as though he failed a psychic test. Only one of
the eleven daemon weapons is allowed per army).
CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMOURY
Followed, as mentioned, by the wargear descriptions which make finding the
armoury every time you want it a nuisance. Chaos has two advantages over older
lists in its wargear selection - more generous wargear allowances (150(100 of
which may be Daemonic Gifts)/75(50 of which may be Daemonic gifts) and lower
wargear costs for veteran-level characters, including for such ubiquitous items
as power weapons and plasma pistols (10pts for Aspiring Champs/Chosen) and
power fists (15pts for these models) as well as more exotic items. Such a
fundamental change requires a revision of Codices across the board to balance
it, I feel - one far less gradual than the proposed 'phasing out' of current
Codices.
As promised, more on the Marks. These have now been standardised so that a
Khorne character gains the same benefits as a Berserker, for instance, a
Berserker now just being a CSM unit with the Mark of Khorne. The exception is
Tzeentch - it appears that all Tzeentchian characters were fortunate enough to
avoid the effects of the Rubric and are all Sorcerers, but don't have the
Rubric Sign. Because of this standardisation there have been changes to all the
Marks. All Marks cost 10pts for characters or 5pts per Marine in a unit (the
Rubric Sign - the Mark of Tzeentch for units - costs 10pts per model, so
Thousand Sons cost 24ppm while other Cult Marines cost 19ppm). Except for the
Mark of Tzeentch for a character, all Marks render their bearer Fearless.
Mark of Khorne - +1A, roll a D6 at start of turn - on 1-2 the model advances
D6". Must sweeping advance unless Terminator, must assault when in range. May
only join/be joined by Blood Frenzied (Mark of Khorne) models. May not be a
Sorcerer.
Mark of Slaanesh - enemies who attack models with the Mark of Slaanesh in close
combat have -1I for that turn. Units with the Mark have Slaaneshi weapon
access.
Mark of Nurgle: +1T, True Grit (counts bolter as 1-handed weapon).
Mark of Tzeentch (character) - Gains the Sorcerer ability (may take 1 major
psychic power and any number of minor powers), automatically passes psychic
tests. May not take Veteran skills.
Mark of Tzeentch (units - Rubric Sign) - +1W, always counts as stationary for
firing purposes. Move as though they were in difficult terrain, never receive
bonus attacks for charging, I1 in close combat, cannot sweeping advance.
More about the effects of Marks when I discuss Marked Marine units.
CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMY LIST
HQ
0-1 CHAOS LORD/SORCERER LORD/DAEMON PRINCE
As old Exalted Champion entry. A Daemon Prince is now just a thematic
distinction intended to guide what sort of model you use for the character -
the suggestion (though not a rule) is that more than 50pts of Daemonic Gifts
makes the character a Daemon Prince. The improved wargear access makes this
character a more formidable proposition, although at least he doesn't get
bargain basement prices. His Retinue entry is replaced by the Elite Chosen.
CHAOS LIEUTENANT/SORCERER
Mighty Champion. Same comments apply.
0-1 GREATER DAEMON
As CA. The greater control over which character will host the Daemon, their
daemonic abilities and (in the GUO's case) improved profile have earned them a
hefty points increase, but these are now appropriately fearsome creatures to
face.
ELITE
CHOSEN
The Chosen are the replacements for CSM Veterans - their cost is down 1pt as
with other CSMs (Terminators still cost 36pts, but do benefit from the greater
Ld of the Chosen) and they have Ld10. They don't automatically infiltrate but
must pay for this ability and/or any other Veteran Skills they desire. They can
be Marked (although unless you want Cult Terminators this may be a waste since
their advantage, Ld10, is irrelevant for Fearless units, making it a better
option to use normal CSMs with Marks instead). You can split the Chosen (whose
maximum number depends on army size) into any number of retinues (well, up to
the normal maximum of one per character) and up to one unit of their own, and
as mentioned they have access to a lot of special and heavy weaponry. They'll
certainly be interesting to play around with in various combinations.
TRANSPORT: CHAOS RHINO
As the Marine equivalent; the rules from WD have been incorporated into this
entry.
POSSESSED CHAOS SPACE MARINES
These have been very heavily upgraded; they come with a 5+ invulnerable save
and S5, but cost a lot less and are free to choose their abilities. They also
have an Aspiring Champion option. However, the downside is that they have to
pay for their daemonic ability and can only have one - and none are as
effective as vorpal claws or the 3+ invulnerable save. It is worth noting that
for 22pts these Possessed have Bloodletter profiles but no power weapon access.
While this seems fair, what seems a little on the unfair side is the fact that
Bloodletters get a power weapon for only 4pts, when even an S4 Aspiring Champ
with a cut-price power weapon option has to pay 10pts (in fact, the cost to
upgrade an Aspiring Champ with +1S, a power weapon and a 5+ Inv. save is only
1pt less than the cost of a whole Bloodletter).
0-1 OBLITERATOR CULT
They're bigger and more expensive (both pointwise and moneywise) than ever,
they're almost as ugly as they were to begin with, so what incentive to use
them? For a start they're a lot more resilient, and have the 5+ Inv 'fix-all'
save that GW has slapped on practically every unit in the Chaos army. Their
weapon options have changed somewhat; they no longer have power weapons,
assault cannon, storm bolters or multimeltas, but do get frag missile
launchers, autocannon and twin-linked plasma guns, and can use different
weapons in different phases (not only in different turns). They fire as though
stationary but have the same drawbacks as Tzeentch units. All in all, a pretty
hefty improvement for an additional 10pts, but I can't confess to being
convinced - they're big and tough and have some ability in close combat, but
they aren't actually any better at shooting than Havocs and no longer have
long-ranged weapons Havocs don't. And they are a lot more expensive, without
expendable 14pt models to catch bullets for them.
TROOPS
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Down to 14pts though with the short-ranged options (plasma pistol and flamer)
doubled in price - this effort to make CSMs shooty is not exactly subtle. Unit
size is 5-20, but as they gain no extra weapon options for being in large
squads the more usual 10-strong units are likely to remain the standard. CSMs
also have access to Veteran skills - mostly relatively minor abilities like
night vision or improved penetration against bunkers, but infiltrate is a
useful ability when allowed, furious charge is a help to Berserkers,
counter-attack (SW counter-charge) useful defensively and probably best of all
for CSM squads, tank hunter adds +1 to armour penetration rolls and as an added
bonus makes the unit immune to morale tests caused by tank shock.
The Cult Marines are victims of the book's poor formatting - as units with
Marks of their gods you have to look to their Power's Book to find out how much
they cost and what their profile and rules are. Then you have to look to the
section just before these to find out that units with the sacred number of
models are Favoured by the Gods. What does this mean in game terms? Your guess
is as good as mine - I haven't been able to find anything relating to that, but
given how badly this book is presented that doesn't mean a thing.
Berserkers - 19pts, A2, Fearless, special rules as Khorne characters. Elite if
a Khorne character is not leading the army. As a variant of the basic CSM unit
entry, Berserkers have the same heavy and special weapon access, although the
10pt plasma pistols and 6pt flamers make these less economical (and the
inability to shoot a third of the time makes them even less so). Their
unpredictability and need to assault makes heavy weapons obviously
inappropriate. Their ability to take the Furious Charge skill and potential for
extra movement at little real drawback for assault troops is a useful bonus,
though Berserkers have their old problem of no power weapon access except for
the character, although they can take chainaxes for +1pt per model. Overall an
improvement.
Noise Marines - 19pts, Fearless, enemy -1I in close combat. Any model may
replace its weapons with a sonic blaster for +5pts. The squad may replace an
autocannon with a blastmaster for no extra cost (blastmaster - R36", S5 AP5
Assault 2 pinning, or S8 AP4 Heavy 1 blast), and a meltagun with a doom siren,
bolt pistol and close combat weapon for no extra cost (as before. In addition,
models with doom sirens ignore cover in close combat). Noise Marines are
cheaper than before, even when given sonic blasters and these are no longer
compulsory. The blastmaster is a lot cheaper, and the squad can still take
conventional heavy/special weapons instead, but it no longer has any anti-heavy
armour ability nor an abundance of these weapons (though Noise Marine Havocs
can). As an interesting anti-light infantry squad it could be reasonable, and
the new blastmaster mode allows it to be fired on the move along with the sonic
blasters. I'm not convinced these are really playable other than for thematic
reasons; you pay a lot for what is basically a CSM squad with a few interesting
additional options, but they're getting there.
Plague Marines - 19pts, Fearless, T5, True Grit. They cost one point less, have
more weapon options, but other than the loss of the plague knife and blight
grenade option are more or less identical. For a relatively small price
increase over the basic Marine they can function as a tough shooty unit that
won't run, but their days as assault troops are over and on balance they are a
little weaker than they used to be.
Thousand Sons - 24pts, Fearless, fire as though stationary, W2, and a plethora
of disadvantages in close combat - is there a theme to these units, I wonder?
With the same options as the Plague Marines, is there really a reason to pay
5pts more for the extra wound and lose the toughness? Especially as, despite
the fact that the TS are now a squad upgrade, they are still denied any weapons
other than bolters - the 'fire as though stationary' thing might be more use if
they could take heavy weapons.
DAEMON PACK
They've been done to death - yes, Bloodletters are overdone and Instability
will affect them so uncommonly that it's not enough of a balancing factor. The
rest are reasonably balanced although a full unit of Flamers (45 S5 AP4 shots
with 18" range, 23pts per model) is certainly not to be sniffed at.
NURGLINGS
Yes, three humans in one statline for only 10pts! Hang on, aren't humans rather
crap? Even with ranged weapons? And aren't they known for being terrible in
close combat?
FAST ATTACK
0-1 CHAOS RAPTORS
If nothing else works and a 5+ invulnerable save would look rather blatant
(perish the thought), chop six points off the cost and keep the rules
essentially the same - although Fearsome has been replaced by Daemonic Visage
(enemy units in contact -1Ld) these are otherwise the same, although of course
they no longer have jump packs, just ungainly jet intake things that are only
there to detract from their appearance and don't do anything. Instead they are
propelled by magical flames as they have a Daemonic Flight ability. Even down
to 29pts their lack of any weaponry to enhance their close combat ability gives
them the same problem as Berserkers or conventional Assault Marines - useful
against troops who can't really fight back but they aren't going to solve the
army's close combat woes (that's what Bloodletters are for...).
CHAOS SPACE MARINE BIKERS
Bike wargear is a lot cheaper; the drop in CSM biker price is less drastic but
they now cost less than standard Marine equivalents, and Marine bikes only have
1 attack. This doesn't make these too good or unbalancing by any stretch,
though they're a respectable enough unit, but it again reinforces the need for
Codex revisions across the board in line with the new release. Thousand Sons
bikers are pointless as bikes already fire at full effect on the move, but
Noise Marine bikes could make for an interesting unit.
DAEMONIC BEASTS
Again, as previewed in White Dwarf. Flesh Hounds seem completely pointless -
though their Ld protects makes them marginally less prone to Instability than
Furies (though not Screamers), it comes with a hefty price tag and a cavalry
move is less useful than the Furies' daemonic flight move. The fact that Flesh
Hounds cost only 5pts less than Bloodletters despite the fact that Bloodletters
have +2Ld, power weapons and 3+ saves (the Hounds' Collars are all but
irrelevant) shows yet again that Khorne's Daemon Troops are broken by
comparison with other units in the Chaos list, especially as Flesh Hounds are
not only subject to instability and the randomness of summoning just like
Bloodletters, their lower Ld makes Instability an actual drawback for them.
HEAVY SUPPORT
CHAOS HAVOCS
Havocs can now take four weapons, and their selection has increased to include
special weapons - they now appear to fill the roles of both a traditional
Devastator unit in their firepower and a traditional Veteran unit in their
versatility. For Noise Marine Havocs this has the additional advantage that a
unit could contain four Doom Sirens (weapons whose plasma grenade effect in
close combat works very well with the warp scream Mark of Slaanesh) plus the
Aspiring Champ's. Alternatively they could have a lot of blastmasters, a weapon
roughly equivalent in versatility and power to the missile launcher (less
effective against tough troops, more so against light troops, equally so
against vehicles). The ability to take multiple heavy weapons allows a Noise
Marine unit to couple its NM weapons with more conventional tank-busters - say
a unit with a couple of blastmasters and a couple of lascannon, or maybe
meltaguns so that the unit could keep firing on the move. Other Cults come off
less well - there's nothing to lose by using Plague Marine Havocs to be sure,
but Thousand Sons and Berserkers are of no use at all in this role.
CHAOS PREDATOR
As before, though with the typo in the old book corrected it has AV12 to the
sides after all. The fact that the sponson cost is for the pair has also been
clarified.
CHAOS DREADNOUGHT
Same cost, same options except for the addition of an option to turn it into a
Furioso - ie, replacing its ranged weapon with a Dreadnought CCW. Against the
grain for this Codex, the Fire Frenzy ability has changed to make this a more
effective assault vehicle (presumably the close combat equivalent of the
Defiler) - the Blood Rage result moves the Dreadnought 6+D6" rather than just
D6". A Dreadnought already in close combat doubles its attacks with this
result.
CHAOS LAND RAIDER
It's a Land Raider. That's all there is to say, really. Same rules as the WD
transport article, though the CSM version of the Machine Spirit is
imaginatively named the Infernal Device.
CHAOS DEFILER
Here it is - the Big Cheese. Or is it? It's certainly no Monolith, so let's
look at some of the details:
Close combat: Right, we've all seen the picture of the thing with huge claws,
and we know it's a walker, so it's a better fighter than, say, a Leman Russ
battle tank, right? Yes, I know it's got WS2 but at least it has S8 and well,
only 2 attacks actually. Okay, so it doesn't have any kind of close combat
armament so everyone gets a save. Oh, all right, I give in - it's pathetic in
close combat. In fact it's about as good as a Gretchin on steroids; a Chaos
Dreadnought's better and a lot cheaper.
So, it's not a close combat monster - let's look at its ranged potential:
battle cannon (normal battle cannon; it can't move and fire as some have
suggested), (reaper) autocannon, heavy flamer. All in all, slightly weaker than
a fully-armed Leman Russ, and at 150pts the cost is roughly comparable. It's
got BS4, but this is only relevant for the autocannon and (if you pay 10pts to
replace the heavy flamer) a havoc launcher, neither of which will see much use
as this thing carries an ordnance weapon. Unlike a Leman Russ it can't choose
not to take these extra weapons, and the ones it comes with are slightly
mis-matched. It does have the advantage that it can be upgraded to carry a
twin-linked lascannon in place of the autocannon, thoigh. Rated as a fire
support vehicle, it's expensive - not worthless, but by no means cheesy. Oh,
and that nonsense about it creating Daemons is a load of rubbish. It can be
upgraded to fire indirectly for 25pts, though it's more expensive than a
Basilisk with a weaker weapon.
That leaves the armour. 12/12/10 isn't exactly paper-thin, but nor is it very
high given the cost of this vehicle. However, being armed with an ordnance
weapon and having expendable weapon systems immobilised and weapon destroyed
results it can largely ignore, and what's more this is a daemon engine,
ignoring stunned and shaken results. So, the Defiler is easy enough to damage,
but it can pretty much guarantee that it'll keep fighting until the moment it's
destroyed. And this is the ability that might make it worth 150-175pts as an
artillery piece.
The verdict? An interesting and potentially useful addition to the Chaos army,
but cheese it is not.
Overall impressions of the list? Those wretched Bloodletters aside, this is an
interesting and apparently balanced list - the old list suffered from being
less shooty than Marines but no better in close combat. GW has taken the route
that might seem logical given the direction of other 3rd Ed. armies such as DE,
Tau and scrapheaps and compensated by emphasising the army's shooty nature.
However, the result may be an army which is a little too versatile - it now has
ordnance firepower, and a battlecannon is a more potent weapon than
conventional Marine ordnance. The greater weapon access of the Chosen compared
with old Veterans, the extra Havoc weapon, the firepower of Tzeentch Daemons
and the improvements to the Noise Marines give a very solid firepower base most
Marine lists can't match, although at the same time the loss of the ability to
field Veteran Troops units cuts down the excesses of the CSAFH. Though fodder
is lacking, Nurglings can fill this role. Finally, although Chaos Marines are
weak in close combat, certain Daemons are horribly good at it - Plaguebearers
and Daemonettes might not be broken, but they're cheap and effective and
reasonably resilient, filling the one hole in the army's abilities. This makes
CSMs extremely flexible and great at forming both take-all-comers lists and
specialist shooty or assault lists. Several other additions - specifically the
downcosting of bikes and more importantly the cheap wargear for non-independent
characters - are innovations which are certainly due, but which need to be
added to other existing lists and soon.
THE BOOKS OF CHAOS
One complaint about the last book was that no one knew that Khorne and Slaanesh
or Tzeentch and Nurgle were bitter enemies - here in this final 'main rules'
section which should really be with the other special rules (I hate the format
of this book - have I mentioned that?) we are told that forces led by
characters with one Mark cannot contain model with the Mark of the opposing
Power - and about time too. We are also told what the Mark of Chaos Undivided
does (reroll failed Morale checks - same as before except that now it isn't
free) and that *any* non-HQ unit with a Mark of Chaos other than Undivided or
the Mark of the army commander is Elite (including Noise Marine Havocs and
Berserker Bikers, for instance, as well as Cult Marines).
FABIUS BILE
Yet more sloppy, if possibly appropriate, editing - the special characters are
spaced throughout the rest of the book rather than neatly kept in one place.
These include Bile, Abaddon, Kharne, Typhus (groan - a new Nurgle character, of
course), Lucius the Eternal (Doomrider seems to have vanished without trace)
and Ahriman.
ALPHA LEGION
This hasn't appeared yet, even in IA form, so here's a summary:
Chaos Cultists (Troops): No longer the cheapest, most numerous fodder in the
game, Cultists now have Guardsman characteristics and the 6pt price tag
(despite weaker armour), and units are 10-20 strong. The Demagogue now rejoices
in the bland title of 'Cult Champion'. They are equipped for close combat, can
be given grenades and can be given the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but have no
weapon options. They always Infiltrate and can be given one of three other
Veteran skills as well - move through cover, furious charge or siege
specialists (for troops with melta bombs). Cultists are the only AL units that
can take Chaos Icons - this represents the fact that it is the concentration of
Cultist belief on worlds far from the Eye of Terror that allows Daemons to
materialise.
Other AL units/models on foot may take Infiltrate for a third of the cost for
other Chaos forces, and this does not count towards skill maximums for models
with a Mark other than Chaos Undivided.
IRON WARRIORS
Essentially as WD, although for reasons of simplicity the Siege Masters skill
has been abolished - instead all Iron Warriors just have the Siege Specialists
skill (less useful, but probably more balanced) for free. The only loss is, as
before, access to Daemons, but with the shooty emphasis of the new list the
Iron Warriors are well-served by the changes. I think that if I were to start a
CSM army now it would be the IW - not keen on the Legion colours, though.
NIGHT LORDS
'Every Space Marine must have a bat helmet that makes him look like the test
model for the original Blood Dragons.' - at least if their forthcoming models
are anything to go by. These are in some respects the opposite of the Iron
Warriors - more FA, less HS, more Raptors, fewer Obliterators. As a close
combat-themed army without Daemon access, however, they have had few bones
thrown to them in the new Codex.
WORD BEARERS
A superabundance of daemons can only be a good thing in the new rules. Access
to the only invulnerable saving throw greater than 5+ in the army (Greater
Daemons aside) helps as well. The inability to take Marks of individual Chaos
Gods is not too devastating - the Word Bearers lose some wargear options, but
the basic list is strong enough to support an army without Cult troops.
BLACK LEGION
No special rules, of course - indeed this section is spent pointing out that
the Black Legion is the basis for this Codex (question: As the Defiler is a
creation of Abaddon's, how is it that all CSM armies can take it? Shouldn't it
be 0-1 in most at the very least, like the LR Crusader?)
THE BOOK OF KHORNE
Short fluff piece about Khorne and wargear/Mark descriptions. A World Eaters
army is a simple proposition - the units are all possible in the main army list
now; all the WE entry does is restrict the army to Khornate units. Oh, and
that's what being favoured does. As with the IA lists, a favoured unit gets its
Champion upgrade for free, and favoured Daemon units add +1 to summoning roles.
THE BOOK OF NURGLE
As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being infantry-based,
if the army has more than two Plague Marine units with Rhinos the extras are
counted as Fast Attack. Nurgle also has a D6 table for minor psychic powers (as
of course do Slaanesh and Tzeentch).
THE BOOK OF SLAANESH
Now the Emperor's Children additions will make for interesting conversions - EC
Predators can have blastmaster turrets and sponson sonic blasters, while an EC
Dreadnought can have twin-linked sonic blasters or a doom siren, and a
blastmaster.
THE BOOK OF TZEENTCH
No special rules for Thousand Sons armies except those common to all four
Power-specific lists - ie, the favoured rule and the requirement for all models
to have the appropriate Mark.
CSM PAINTING/COLLECTING GUIDE
The usual. The Plague Marines shown appear to be the new figures; at least one
has parts recognisably from the plastic set and I don't recognise the bloated
and torn bodies from existing models. Other than that, nothing new, although we
are treated to a blue and green Alpha Legion squad. And, heresy of heresy,
there's a section on 'Inventing your own renegade Chaos Space Marine *Chapter*'
(emphasis mine). NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finally, that's it - there's a lot in this book and some of the sublists can
make for interesting variants (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons,
Emperor's Children).
Philip Bowles
incrdbil
>discuss the wargear section. First bit of bad news - the typo curse hasn't been
>cured. For example, a Chaos Spawn may in fact be a Daemon Spawn depending on
>whether you believe the Armoury or the wargear list. More seriously, an
>indirect-firing battlecannon has a range of either 36-60" (Defiler entry) or
>36"-72" (Chaos summary) - you choose. There are also several references to the
>reaper autocannon as distinct from the normal autocannon, including one in the
>Slaanesh section which allows you to choose to replace either an autocannon or
>a reaper autocannon with a blastmaster.
ARRRRGGGHHHH! Just howdid they fail to learn from past mistakes! Or
is this a new 'tradition" ?
>INTRODUCTION
>
>Overview - "there was this civil war and the Chaos Marines lost..."
>Why collect a CSM army? - Because they're eeeeevillll (seriously, this is the
>reason given though not in these words) - not like those WFB muscle-headed
>wimps who wouldn't know evil if it came up and ate them.
>A sidebar telling us that the rules here supercede Index Astartes rules - nice
>to see it included here to prevent newbies from needing to ask which rules came
>first; it's also nice that it points the interested in the direction of more
>extensive Chaos fluff. What's in this book isn't bad, and it does briefly cover
>each Legion, but it's not extensive even if there is more than in the last one.
Damn, they still don't get it? Chaos, being more fluff driven than
most forces, needed the heavy coverage.
>THE WARP
>
>In some ways a more interesting piece - all we really know about the warp is
>that spirits and warp entities live there. This piece tries to go into more
>detail and to give it a pseudo-scientific footing as an extra dimension. It
>also details the histories of the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, ending with
>the story of the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs.
And this was needed more than CSM fluff because.....?
>
>
>Mark of Nurgle: +1T, True Grit (counts bolter as 1-handed weapon).
That blows. Did they just not have an idea what to do?
>
>
>POSSESSED CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>
>These have been very heavily upgraded; they come with a 5+ invulnerable save
>and S5, but cost a lot less and are free to choose their abilities. They also
>have an Aspiring Champion option. However, the downside is that they have to
>pay for their daemonic ability and can only have one - and none are as
>effective as vorpal claws or the 3+ invulnerable save. It is worth noting that
>for 22pts these Possessed have Bloodletter profiles but no power weapon access.
>While this seems fair, what seems a little on the unfair side is the fact that
>Bloodletters get a power weapon for only 4pts, when even an S4 Aspiring Champ
>with a cut-price power weapon option has to pay 10pts (in fact, the cost to
>upgrade an Aspiring Champ with +1S, a power weapon and a 5+ Inv. save is only
>1pt less than the cost of a whole Bloodletter).
and how did they manage to miss this? anyone have a non-pornographic
suggestion?
>
>0-1 OBLITERATOR CULT
>
>They're bigger and more expensive (both pointwise and moneywise) than ever,
>they're almost as ugly as they were to begin with, so what incentive to use
>them? For a start they're a lot more resilient, and have the 5+ Inv 'fix-all'
>save that GW has slapped on practically every unit in the Chaos army.
Anyone who thinks a 5+ invulnerable save is a real incentive on an
expensive unit, raise your hand.
Thought so.
Their
>weapon options have changed somewhat; they no longer have power weapons,
>assault cannon, storm bolters or multimeltas, but do get frag missile
>launchers, autocannon and twin-linked plasma guns, and can use different
>weapons in different phases (not only in different turns). They fire as though
>stationary but have the same drawbacks as Tzeentch units. All in all, a pretty
>hefty improvement for an additional 10pts,
Still not worth the cost.
but I can't confess to being
>convinced - they're big and tough and have some ability in close combat, but
>they aren't actually any better at shooting than Havocs and no longer have
>long-ranged weapons Havocs don't. And they are a lot more expensive, without
>expendable 14pt models to catch bullets for them.
>
>TROOPS
>
>CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>
>Down to 14pts though with the short-ranged options (plasma pistol and flamer)
>doubled in price - this effort to make CSMs shooty is not exactly subtle.
+
and probably best of all
>for CSM squads, tank hunter adds +1 to armour penetration rolls and as an added
>bonus makes the unit immune to morale tests caused by tank shock.
Hmm, let me use my powwers to predict what we'lll see...
>
>
>
>
>Plague Marines - 19pts, Fearless, T5, True Grit. They cost one point less, have
>more weapon options, but other than the loss of the plague knife and blight
>grenade option are more or less identical. For a relatively small price
>increase over the basic Marine they can function as a tough shooty unit that
>won't run, but their days as assault troops are over and on balance they are a
>little weaker than they used to be.
Well, there goes Nurgle down the toilet. No pun intended.
>
>
>HEAVY SUPPORT
>
>CHAOS HAVOCS
>
>Havocs can now take four weapons, and their selection has increased to include
>special weapons - they now appear to fill the roles of both a traditional
>Devastator unit in their firepower and a traditional Veteran unit in their
>versatility.
Woohoo.
>>CHAOS DREADNOUGHT
>CHAOS DEFILER
>
>Here it is - the Big Cheese. Or is it? It's certainly no Monolith, so let's
>look at some of the details:
>
>So, it's not a close combat monster - let's look at its ranged potential:
>
>The verdict? An interesting and potentially useful addition to the Chaos army,
>but cheese it is not.
Simply having Battlecannon type ordanace with that range capability
will have some impact, but the cost seems ok.
>
>Yet more sloppy, if possibly appropriate, editing - the special characters are
>spaced throughout the rest of the book rather than neatly kept in one place.
>These include Bile, Abaddon, Kharne, Typhus (groan - a new Nurgle character, of
>course), Lucius the Eternal (Doomrider seems to have vanished without trace)
>and Ahriman.
Cypher?
>
>
>IRON WARRIORS
>
>Essentially as WD, although for reasons of simplicity the Siege Masters skill
>has been abolished - instead all Iron Warriors just have the Siege Specialists
>skill (less useful, but probably more balanced) for free. The only loss is, as
>before, access to Daemons, but with the shooty emphasis of the new list the
>Iron Warriors are well-served by the changes. I think that if I were to start a
>CSM army now it would be the IW - not keen on the Legion colours, though.
from a lazy painter point of virew, I'm happy :)
>THE BOOK OF NURGLE
>
>As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being infantry-based,
>if the army has more than two Plague Marine units with Rhinos the extras are
>counted as Fast Attack.
Umm, well that's....stupid.
Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer
"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021001172409...@mb-mb.aol.com...
>
> CSM PAINTING/COLLECTING GUIDE
>
> The usual. The Plague Marines shown appear to be the new figures; at least
one
> has parts recognisably from the plastic set and I don't recognise the
bloated
> and torn bodies from existing models. Other than that, nothing new,
although we
> are treated to a blue and green Alpha Legion squad. And, heresy of heresy,
> there's a section on 'Inventing your own renegade Chaos Space Marine
*Chapter*'
> (emphasis mine). NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
It does make a bit of sense, in the context of the Astral Claws for example
they were a renegade chapter before they became the Corsairs. And speaking
of that, is it me or does the Red Corsair dark angel and crimson fist squad
look really poor?
Qrab
pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
<snip>
> Plague Marines - 19pts, Fearless, T5, True Grit. They cost one
> point less, have more weapon options, but other than the loss of
> the plague knife and blight grenade option are more or less
> identical. For a relatively small price increase over the basic
> Marine they can function as a tough shooty unit that won't run, but
> their days as assault troops are over and on balance they are a
> little weaker than they used to be.
<snip>
> THE BOOK OF NURGLE
>
> As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being
> infantry-based, if the army has more than two Plague Marine units
> with Rhinos the extras are counted as Fast Attack. Nurgle also has
> a D6 table for minor psychic powers (as of course do Slaanesh and
> Tzeentch).
This is gonna be quick because Buffy is on right now.
THIS FUCKING SUCKS!!! Looks like all my Plague Marines are going on
Ebay. ARRRGGGH!!!!
--
Be seeing you-
Qrab
remove yourhead to reply
John Hwang
>ELITE
>
>CHOSEN
>You can split the Chosen (whose maximum number depends on army size) into
>any number of retinues (well, up to the normal maximum of one per character)
>and up to one unit of their own,
Hey! Where are my masses of Veterans? *One* lousy unit? Grr...
>TROOPS
Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>although at the same time the loss of the ability to
>field Veteran Troops units cuts down the excesses of the CSAFH.
Grr... That's *it*. Must prepare to eBay my CSM army...
>IRON WARRIORS
>
>Essentially as WD,
Hmm... so lots of Havocs? Hmm...
>THE BOOK OF KHORNE
>all the WE entry does is restrict the army to Khornate units.
> Oh, and that's what being favoured does. As with the IA
> lists, a favoured unit gets its Champion upgrade for free,
> and favoured Daemon units add +1 to summoning
> roles.
Oh, for pity's sake...
And what happened to the Fallen? No entry for Cypher? Grr...
The new Chaos book is a failure.
--
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
P Bowles
(incrdbil) writes:
>There are also several references to the
>>reaper autocannon as distinct from the normal autocannon, including one in
>the
>>Slaanesh section which allows you to choose to replace either an autocannon
>or
>>a reaper autocannon with a blastmaster.
>
>
>ARRRRGGGHHHH! Just howdid they fail to learn from past mistakes! Or
>is this a new 'tradition" ?
Actually, this mistake was mine (unlike the others) - the reaper is where it
should be in the summary (R36", S7, AP4, Heavy 2 twin-linked). Though my
understanding was that the reaper is a primitive autocannon (as supported by
its 36" range) and the only one Chaos has access to, so why do they use normal
autocannon too?
The lightning claw is also in the summary, but it should still be in the
wargear section like combi-weapons and the like.
>Damn, they still don't get it? Chaos, being more fluff driven than
>most forces, needed the heavy coverage.
The fluff that's there is wide-ranging, introducing most aspects of Chaos
fluff, it just doesn't dwell on any of them. In terms of pages of fluff Chaos
has come off badly compared with, say, Necrons (though of course in terms of
quality of fluff it is far ahead).
>>Mark of Nurgle: +1T, True Grit (counts bolter as 1-handed weapon).
>That blows. Did they just not have an idea what to do?
Probably not - most of the veteran skills are pinched from other armies -
Skilled Riders from the Eldar, Counter-attack (countercharge) from Space
Wolves, not to mention wargear like combat drugs.
>>POSSESSED CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>>
>>These have been very heavily upgraded; they come with a 5+ invulnerable save
>>and S5, but cost a lot less and are free to choose their abilities. They
>also
>>have an Aspiring Champion option. However, the downside is that they have to
>>pay for their daemonic ability and can only have one - and none are as
>>effective as vorpal claws or the 3+ invulnerable save. It is worth noting
>that
>>for 22pts these Possessed have Bloodletter profiles but no power weapon
>access.
>>While this seems fair, what seems a little on the unfair side is the fact
>that
>>Bloodletters get a power weapon for only 4pts, when even an S4 Aspiring
>Champ
>>with a cut-price power weapon option has to pay 10pts (in fact, the cost to
>>upgrade an Aspiring Champ with +1S, a power weapon and a 5+ Inv. save is
>only
>>1pt less than the cost of a whole Bloodletter).
>
>and how did they manage to miss this? anyone have a non-pornographic
>suggestion?
Um, the person who wrote the Bloodletter rules had never seen the rest of the
list? Still, at least we can rest safe in the knowledge that the Bloodletters
are an anomaly seriously underpriced in comparison with the rest of the army,
rather than the new standard.
>>TROOPS
>>
>>CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>>
>>Down to 14pts though with the short-ranged options (plasma pistol and
>flamer)
>>doubled in price - this effort to make CSMs shooty is not exactly subtle.
>+
>and probably best of all
>>for CSM squads, tank hunter adds +1 to armour penetration rolls and as an
>added
>>bonus makes the unit immune to morale tests caused by tank shock.
>
>Hmm, let me use my powwers to predict what we'lll see...
I think everyone will be dying to add Night Vision to their squads. Um, is that
wrong?
>>Plague Marines - 19pts, Fearless, T5, True Grit. They cost one point less,
>have
>>more weapon options, but other than the loss of the plague knife and blight
>>grenade option are more or less identical. For a relatively small price
>>increase over the basic Marine they can function as a tough shooty unit that
>>won't run, but their days as assault troops are over and on balance they are
>a
>>little weaker than they used to be.
>
>Well, there goes Nurgle down the toilet. No pun intended.
>>
Could be worse - they're not terrible for the cost and even though PM Bikers
are completely pointless (okay, they become Fearless but don't get any
Toughness benefit on a bike and aren't armed with bolters in their hands
anyway), at least they don't have the Rubric Sign. If only that cost 5pts like
everyone else's upgrade Thousand Sons might be worth it.
>>HEAVY SUPPORT
>>
>>CHAOS HAVOCS
>>
>>Havocs can now take four weapons, and their selection has increased to
>include
>>special weapons - they now appear to fill the roles of both a traditional
>>Devastator unit in their firepower and a traditional Veteran unit in their
>>versatility.
>
>Woohoo.
Yep, they're a nice unit. And with a Tzeentchian or Nurglesque character in the
army you get to take Havocs in HS and Noise Marine Havocs in Elite.
>>Yet more sloppy, if possibly appropriate, editing - the special characters
>are
>>spaced throughout the rest of the book rather than neatly kept in one place.
>>These include Bile, Abaddon, Kharne, Typhus (groan - a new Nurgle character,
>of
>>course), Lucius the Eternal (Doomrider seems to have vanished without trace)
>>and Ahriman.
>
>Cypher?
I was going to wonder about his absence, but forgot. Maybe he's been shelved
for a third Dark Angels book.
>>THE BOOK OF NURGLE
>>
>>As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being
>infantry-based,
>>if the army has more than two Plague Marine units with Rhinos the extras are
>>counted as Fast Attack.
>
>Umm, well that's....stupid.
*shrug* Just as well a Nurgle army has no viable Fast Attack - as mentioned PM
Bikers are senseless, they can't take the fast Daemons and Raptors are so-so.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) writes:
>>ELITE
>>
>>CHOSEN
>
>>You can split the Chosen (whose maximum number depends on army size) into
>>any number of retinues (well, up to the normal maximum of one per character)
>
>>and up to one unit of their own,
>
>Hey! Where are my masses of Veterans? *One* lousy unit? Grr...
And up to two retinues. And all three units can have as many or more heavy
weapons/special weapons as old Havocs, and all the variety of Veterans and
Terminators combined. Two HQs of 9 Chosen with 3 heavies/specials, a squad of 9
or 12 Chosen with three or four more and, if you don't have a Slaaneshi or
Nurgle Mark for your leader, Noise Marine or Plague Marine Havocs as Elites in
addition to standard HS Havocs, shooty Chaos armies are by no means dead.
>>TROOPS
>
>Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
Gone. You'll just have to fill your Troops selection with Flamers of Tzeentch -
at least that way every model gets a heavy bolter.
>>IRON WARRIORS
>>
>>Essentially as WD,
>
>Hmm... so lots of Havocs? Hmm...
Well, the extra HS slot - and as above you can engage in trickery to get
yourself some Elite Havocs as well.
Philip Bowles
comstar
P Bowles wrote:
>
> ALPHA LEGION
>
> This hasn't appeared yet, even in IA form, so here's a summary:
>
> Chaos Cultists (Troops): No longer the cheapest, most numerous fodder in the
> game, Cultists now have Guardsman characteristics and the 6pt price tag
> (despite weaker armour), and units are 10-20 strong. The Demagogue now rejoices
> in the bland title of 'Cult Champion'. They are equipped for close combat, can
> be given grenades and can be given the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but have no
> weapon options. They always Infiltrate and can be given one of three other
> Veteran skills as well - move through cover, furious charge or siege
> specialists (for troops with melta bombs). Cultists are the only AL units that
> can take Chaos Icons - this represents the fact that it is the concentration of
> Cultist belief on worlds far from the Eye of Terror that allows Daemons to
> materialise.
So, though having a worse armor (6+)? cultists are otherwise BETTER than Guardsman
in HTH, always infiltrate (where did THIS come from?) and be givin VET skills???
Do they lack heavy weapons or do they get them too.
RT Maitreya
>>As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being
>>infantry-based, if the army has more than two Plague Marine units
>>with Rhinos the extras are counted as Fast Attack. Nurgle also has
> THIS FUCKING SUCKS!!! Looks like all my Plague Marines are going on
> Ebay. ARRRGGGH!!!!
Er, no, you'll be trading them to the other SoCalWH losers
for things you want. We're happy to take pretty much any
models you've put together . . .
RTM
The Blue Raja
news:20021002021306...@mb-fc.news.cs.com...
<snip>
> The new Chaos book is a failure.
Despite having not seen the book and just having to go off Phil's review,
this is my immeadiate reaction too.
--
The Blue Raja
"Yo Mumma is so phat, that DJ Sebastian Wolfe sampled her" - Rob Singers
RGMW FAQ - Is FAQ, is good
http://rgmw.b3p0.com/rgmw/rgmw-faq.html
DJ Jizzy Bear
> reviewing GW game releases with this - the first genuinely revised Codex
(as
> opposed to the original with a few CA fixes thrown in) and the first to
> incorporate all its sub-lists into one volume. I won't go into any great
detail
> on individual pieces of wargear - there are a lot of them, for a start,
and
> secondly the format of the book - with Undivided wargear at the front
between
> the Armoury and the army list and the rest at the back in Power-specific
> 'books' is so bad that I just can't be bothered, though I will more
generally
> discuss the wargear section.
This bodes well..
First bit of bad news - the typo curse hasn't been
> cured. For example, a Chaos Spawn may in fact be a Daemon Spawn depending
on
> whether you believe the Armoury or the wargear list.
Hey, who needs proof-readers?
<snip>
Nice work, Zitty Phil. Not sure this is going to inspire me to thaw out my
Black Legion though. Who would have thought I'd end up painting the Chaos
version of the Ultramarines?
--
DJ Jizzy Bear
"I'm in with the Out crowd..."
Putting hardcore spooge into music since yesterday afternoon. Respect!!!!!!!
DJ Jizzy Bear
You and me both. Oh well, back to painting Eldar...
P Bowles
<com...@optusnet.com.au> writes:
>So, though having a worse armor (6+)? cultists are otherwise BETTER than
>Guardsman
>in HTH, always infiltrate (where did THIS come from?) and be givin VET
>skills???
>
>Do they lack heavy weapons or do they get them too.
>
No heavy or special weapon options, but they can get frag, krak and melta
bombs.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
Bowles) writes:
>>>THE BOOK OF NURGLE
>>>
>>>As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being
>>infantry-based,
>>>if the army has more than two Plague Marine units with Rhinos the extras
>are
>>>counted as Fast Attack.
>>
>>Umm, well that's....stupid.
>
>*shrug* Just as well a Nurgle army has no viable Fast Attack - as mentioned
>PM
>Bikers are senseless, they can't take the fast Daemons and Raptors are so-so.
Actually, they can't take Raptors at all as these can't have the MoN. In fact,
this rule can be seen as a bonus - the only Fast Attack choices the Death Guard
have are their transported Plague Marines and Plague Marine Bikers, the latter
being worthless. This rule allows you to fill three slots that would never
otherwise be used and so free up Troops slots for more PM infantry or
Plaguebearers.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
>>>Essentially as WD,
>>
>>Hmm... so lots of Havocs? Hmm...
>
>Well, the extra HS slot - and as above you can engage in trickery to get
>yourself some Elite Havocs as well.
Scratch that last bit - of course Iron Warriors have to be Undivided so no
tricks allowed. Though they can get Basilsks and Vindicators still.
As for a shooty Chaos army, I've been thinking along these lines:
2500pt Black Legion (C:CSM)
HQ
Chaos Lieutenant 45
Mark of Tzeentch 10
Bolt of Change 30
Eye of Tzeentch 20
Tzeentch Minor Power 10
115
5 Chosen 85
Bolters
Mark of Chaos Undivided 5
Chaos Icon
2 x Lascannon 70
Aspiring Champion 27
Mark of Chaos Undivided 1
Veteran Skill - Tank Hunters 18
206
ELITE
11 Chosen 187
Bolters
2 x Missile launcher 40
2 x Autocannon 40
Aspiring Champion 27
Sorcerer 5
Doombolt 15
314
9 Chaos Havocs 126
Mark of Slaanesh 45
6 x sonic blaster 30
4 x Blastmaster 80
Aspiring Champion 27
Mark of Slaanesh 45
Doom Siren 10
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Veteran skill - Tank Hunters 30
393
Chaos Rhino 50
Havoc Launcher 25
Smoke Launcher 3
78
9 Chaos Space Marines 126
Bolters
Heavy bolter 5
Plasma gun 10
Aspiring Champion 27
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
168
9 Chaos Space Marines 126
Bolters
Lascannon 15
Plasma gun 10
Aspiring Champion 27
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
178
9 Horrors of Tzeentch 153
9 x Flamer of Tzeentch 54
207
9 Horrors of Tzeentch 153
9 x Flamer of Tzeentch 54
207
HEAVY SUPPORT
9 x Chaos Havocs 126
Bolters
2 x Missile launcher 40
2 x Lascannon 70
1 x Aspiring Champion 27
Bolt pistol and close combat weapon
Veteran Skill - Tank Hunters 30
293
Chaos Predator 85
Twin-linked lascannon 35
Sponson lascannon 25
Parastitic Possession 20
165
Chaos Defiler 150
Indirect Fire 25
175
Grand Total: 2499pts
Okay, this is an unusually large army but it gets the point across - Chaos can
be supremely well-tailored to a firepower role. With this army I'd have 16
heavy weapons on infantry, 18 suspensor heavy bolter equivalents on Flamers and
another on a Chosen Sorcerer, the Bolt of Change (S8, AP2, assault 1) and
several vehicle-mounted heavy weapons including the Defiler's battle cannon. By
making my character Tzeentchian I get to take Noise Marine Havocs as Elite, and
this gives me a versatile unit whose tank hunter ability makes its blastmasters
as effective as lascannon against vehicles, which has the firepower to shred
infantry units and which can fire all its weapons on the move if it needs to.
Their Rhino complements this by giving them mobility and fire support with its
Havoc launcher. That still leaves me two other dedicated anti-tank units - the
Havocs and the retinue - and three anti-infantry ones - the two Flamer units
and the Chosen.
Philip Bowles
Cheezhankrn
>
> HQ
>
> 0-1 CHAOS LORD/SORCERER LORD/DAEMON PRINCE
So you don't get the old cheap Sorc but you can give a squads aspiring champ
the mark of Tzeentch and he can then have spells?
> ELITE
>
> CHOSEN
>
> The Chosen are the replacements for CSM Veterans - their cost is down 1pt
as
> with other CSMs (Terminators still cost 36pts, but do benefit from the
greater
> Ld of the Chosen)
How many weapons per squad can chaos termies have? 3 like other chosen?
> 0-1 OBLITERATOR CULT
>
> All in all, a pretty
> hefty improvement for an additional 10pts, but I can't confess to being
> convinced
So they can walk around and shoot now, changes the feel. I'll keep using
mine on occasion and see.
> TROOPS
>
> CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>
> Down to 14pts though with the short-ranged options (plasma pistol and
flamer)
> doubled in price - this effort to make CSMs shooty is not exactly subtle.
CSMs always seemed like they should be short range shooty. Walk up close,
shoot the crap thru the enemy and weaken them so you can easily take the
charge.
So is a plasmagun cheaper than a PP now?
It generally looks I can shift my warband over pretty easily and add a few
intresting bits. Will have to see the codex myself before I say more.
P Bowles
<cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> writes:
>"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20021001172409...@mb-mb.aol.com...
>>
>> CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMY LIST
>>
>> HQ
>>
>> 0-1 CHAOS LORD/SORCERER LORD/DAEMON PRINCE
>
>So you don't get the old cheap Sorc but you can give a squads aspiring champ
>the mark of Tzeentch and he can then have spells?
There are three ways to get a Sorcerer: upgrade a Lord or Lieutenant with
either the Sorcerer option in that entry or the Mark of Tzeentch (both cost
10pts over the basic cost - so a Lieutenant Sorcerer is 55pts without powers,
for instance, 65+ with them); upgrade a Chosen Aspiring Champion for +5pts
(this is the cheapest way, working out at 32pts without powers, and there's
nothing from stopping you taking only one Chosen in your entire army although
why you'd want to is beyond me); or upgrade a squad with the Mark of Tzeentch
and one of its members to an Aspiring Champion - you can no longer give
Aspiring Champions Marks of their own; if they have a Mark all models in their
unit must also have it. The Mark of Tzeentch is bad, but the Mark of Chaos
Undivided is a real irritant - it's only 1pt per model but it adds up, and the
problem is that you need a Marked unit to carry a Chaos Icon. So if you want to
summon Daemons at all you have to have at least one Marked unit.
>
>> ELITE
>>
>> CHOSEN
>>
>> The Chosen are the replacements for CSM Veterans - their cost is down 1pt
>as
>> with other CSMs (Terminators still cost 36pts, but do benefit from the
>greater
>> Ld of the Chosen)
>
>How many weapons per squad can chaos termies have? 3 like other chosen?
One reaper autocannon or heavy flamer for every three models in the unit with
Terminator armour (other Chosen have one heavy/special per three models in the
unit with power armour). Any Chaos Terminator can take a lightning claw, power
fist, chainfist, combi-melta or combi-flamer (except Thousand Sons, who can't
be upgraded).
>> TROOPS
>>
>> CHAOS SPACE MARINES
>>
>> Down to 14pts though with the short-ranged options (plasma pistol and
>flamer)
>> doubled in price - this effort to make CSMs shooty is not exactly subtle.
>
>CSMs always seemed like they should be short range shooty. Walk up close,
>shoot the crap thru the enemy and weaken them so you can easily take the
>charge.
>So is a plasmagun cheaper than a PP now?
Both cost the same - 10pts. To see how CSMs compare in the shooty stakes think
of the following example - take the Imperial Guard. Remove the ordnance tanks.
Add about double the squad heavy weapons to compensate. That's pretty much the
CSM list - this is an army which, in 2,000pts (ie, max. 20 Chosen) could have
up to 14 heavy weapons in the Elite section (in larger armies you could have up
to 21), 12 more in Heavy Support, the usual Troop weapon options and, oh yes,
Daemon units in which every 23pt model has a heavy bolter with suspensors.
Philip Bowles
Stephane
"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news: > CSM
PAINTING/COLLECTING GUIDE
>
> The usual. The Plague Marines shown appear to be the new figures; at least
one
> has parts recognisably from the plastic set and I don't recognise the
bloated
> and torn bodies from existing models. Other than that, nothing new,
although we
> are treated to a blue and green Alpha Legion squad. And, heresy of heresy,
> there's a section on 'Inventing your own renegade Chaos Space Marine
*Chapter*'
> (emphasis mine). NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Funny thing is, I'm not even surprised...
Stéphane
comstar
P Bowles wrote:
Oh I get it. Cultists are now Imperial Stormtroopers who rebeled and took off
most of thier armour.
John Hwang
>"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
><snip>
>> The new Chaos book is a failure.
>
>Despite having not seen the book and just having to go off Phil's
>review, this is my immeadiate reaction too.
At least you don't have a SCAFH-based Fallen Angels army which has just been
absolutely gutted and dustbinned by the new rules...
When I heard about a full list of Legions, I was really hoping for a set of
official rules for the Fallen of the Dark Angels Legion. But no, it's "Blood
for the Blood Angels God" again. The one army we don't need more of gets the
lion's share, while the armies and forces which are most in need of
improvements get the least. That's no way to encourage variety.
John Hwang
[SNIP]
>> The new Chaos book is a failure.
>
>You and me both. Oh well, back to painting Eldar...
Ha! That's just about the only army of mine which I'd count as fully-painted
and able to field a fully-based force out of. I've just gotta finish painting
those couple dozen Marines to clear them off the plate.
Maka
But that is "Death Guard". Nothing to stop you from playing an all
nurgle army from the basic list right?
On a side note, anytime you want to field plague marine bikers, I'll
give you T6. The T5 cap is BS since T6 still dies on a 2+ to all my
power fists...
-Maka
John Hwang
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) writes:
>
>>>ELITE
>>>
>>>CHOSEN
>>
>>>You can split the Chosen (whose maximum number depends on army
>>> size) into any number of retinues (well, up to the normal maximum of
>>> one per character) and up to one unit of their own,
>>
>>Hey! Where are my masses of Veterans? *One* lousy unit? Grr...
>
>And up to two retinues. And all three units can have as many or more heavy
>weapons/special weapons as old Havocs, and all the variety of Veterans and
>Terminators combined. Two HQs of 9 Chosen with 3 heavies/specials, a
>squad of 9 or 12 Chosen with three or four more and, if you don't have a
>Slaaneshi or Nurgle Mark for your leader, Noise Marine or Plague Marine
>Havocs as Elites in addition to standard HS Havocs, shooty Chaos armies
>are by no means dead.
Still, this means I lose my Herohammer Lord. Also, this is still only 3 units.
In my last game of 1000 pts, I fielded 6 teams of Veterans with a team of
Havocs...
>>>TROOPS
>>
>>Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>
>Gone. You'll just have to fill your Troops selection with Flamers of Tzeentch
>- at least that way every model gets a heavy bolter.
Hmm... Maybe "treat as" for my models? Hmm...
>>>IRON WARRIORS
>>>
>>>Essentially as WD,
>>
>>Hmm... so lots of Havocs? Hmm...
>
>Well, the extra HS slot - and as above you can engage in trickery to get
>yourself some Elite Havocs as well.
Well I'll take a look at the book when I get a chance. Maybe it's not a total
disaster.
P Bowles
M_St...@hotmail.com (Maka) writes:
>But that is "Death Guard". Nothing to stop you from playing an all
>nurgle army from the basic list right?
>On a side note, anytime you want to field plague marine bikers, I'll
>give you T6. The T5 cap is BS
Sadly, not in the rules it isn't. Daemonic Resilience (the Toughness-enhancing
part of the Mark of Nurgle) is stated as being incompatible with bikes - which
of course makes Plague Marine Bikers completely worthless.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) writes:
>"The Blue Raja" the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
>>"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
>><snip>
>>> The new Chaos book is a failure.
>>
>>Despite having not seen the book and just having to go off Phil's
>>review, this is my immeadiate reaction too.
>
>At least you don't have a SCAFH-based Fallen Angels army which has just been
>absolutely gutted and dustbinned by the new rules...
>
>When I heard about a full list of Legions, I was really hoping for a set of
>official rules for the Fallen of the Dark Angels Legion. But no, it's "Blood
>for the Blood Angels God" again. The one army we don't need more of gets the
>lion's share,
What, Iron Warriors? :-) Okay, World Eaters get Bloodletters, which is
obviously a real advantage - on the other hand they are hampered by the Mark of
Khorne (1 in 3 chance of being unable to shoot - a real drawback, not a BA or
Bloodletter Instability type 'drawback') and their assault troops may now be
worth the points, but they won't win any prices in a head to head against real
assault troops.
while the armies and forces which are most in need of
>improvements get the least.
You can't have it both ways - if you want a list which penalises assault
variants, the Night Lords are *bound* to be crap...
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) writes:
>Still, this means I lose my Herohammer Lord. Also, this is still only 3
>units.
Be fair - one of those units can have up to 13 heavy weapons...
> In my last game of 1000 pts, I fielded 6 teams of Veterans with a team of
>Havocs...
Look at it this way - six Veteran squads under the old rules only allowed you
12 heavy weapons and took up all your Troops slots. The full (in large games)
40 Chosen give you up to 13 heavy weapons and take up one Elite slot. It could
be worse.
Philip Bowles
Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer
the mark of Nurgle
P Bowles
<hindu...@INFERNAL.yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> Sadly, not in the rules it isn't. Daemonic Resilience (the
>Toughness-enhancing
>> part of the Mark of Nurgle) is stated as being incompatible with bikes -
>which
>> of course makes Plague Marine Bikers completely worthless.
>>
>And illegal. According to the Marks of Chaos table on P.38 Bike's CAN'T have
>the mark of Nurgle
Oh well, that's a devastating blow - and incidentally makes those Rhino Death
Guard the only FA choice in that list, so instead of having six squads split
between Plague Marines and Plaguebearers, you can have six PM squads and still
have room for three more or three Plaguebearer packs. Death Guard could be a
playable army after all.
Philip Bowles
Robert Williams
> >TROOPS
>
> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
>
> The new Chaos book is a failure.
You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
Rob
Helicon 1
news:<3d9af5fc$0$11883$626a...@news.free.fr>...
> > And, heresy of heresy,
> > there's a section on 'Inventing your own renegade Chaos Space Marine
> > *Chapter*' (emphasis mine). NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Funny thing is, I'm not even surprised...
Umm, I don't quite follow the problem here, as I read this you're
suggesting that CSMs are all members of the original Legions,
therefore no Chaos 'Chapters'. Are there not any CSM *Chapters*, based
off post-Heresy loyalist Chapters that have been turned to the Dark
Side? FYI, Codex:SM , p47 lists 13 Chapters as 'Lost in Warp', 4
subject to 'Inquisistorial Purge' and 16 under 'Other Circumstances'.
There's certainly support for the idea of renegade CSM Chapters.
Tim
DJ Jizzy Bear
> >Subject: Re: Review - Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Long)
> >"DJ Jizzy Bear" keepin...@homeboys.com wrote:
> >"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote
>
> [SNIP]
>
> >> The new Chaos book is a failure.
> >
> >You and me both. Oh well, back to painting Eldar...
>
> Ha! That's just about the only army of mine which I'd count as
fully-painted
> and able to field a fully-based force out of. I've just gotta finish
painting
> those couple dozen Marines to clear them off the plate.
Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
enthusiasm I can't summon up.
DJ Jizzy Bear
"Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
And so well put together...
P Bowles
<ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> >TROOPS
>>
>> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>
>Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per squad - it
wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best unit in the previous list.
>>
>> The new Chaos book is a failure.
>
>You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
It's badly-edited and there seems to have been little regard paid to making
points costs consistent across the army - the prime example is the
Bloodletter/Flesh Hounds business. Both are subject to instability, though for
one it is a far greater drawback than for the other, and both must be summoned,
so there is no question of the Bloodletters being cheap because they have
drawbacks the Hounds lack. Yet for 5pts on their cost they get +2Ld (which
itself makes instability all but irrelevant for them), power weapons *and* a 3+
save. What do they lose? Collars of Khorne - irrelevant. Cavalry move - barely
less so.
The remaining units feature too much duplication of abilities (Raptors, bikes,
CSMs with close combat weapons - all basically the same thing with different
movement rates and slightly different rules, but none actually distinguishable
from the others in terms of combat performance. Possessed are a little more
distinctive, but even they lack abilities that improve their combat performance
other than the extra Strength point). The only Cults to benefit from the new
rules are Berserkers and Noise Marines; Plague Marines are barely changed (True
Grit is a complete irrelevance as no Plague Marine unit comes with both bolters
and close combat weapons) but Thousand Sons have suffered considerably - their
main advantage, the ability to fire on the move, is rendered useless by the
randomness of that movement (something it appears no one considered) and by the
fact that Noise Marines with sonic blasters (assault 2 at 24" range with a
heavy 3 option) are no more expensive than Thousand Sons with bolters
(effectively assault 2 only at 12" range or less, no extra option) - and Noise
Marines have no loss of movement. The wound gives a little extra resilience,
but the TS come off as a very unsatisfactory halfway-house between Noise
Marines and Plague Marines, and without the options that make these units
effective - having to pay for a Champion upgrade (and the Bolt of Change
itself) to get a mini assault lascannon is not much compensation. It's this
sort of thing, with too many units rendered useless by others in the list, that
makes the list look like a rush job - the horribly poor formatting of the army
list itself, the typos, and above all the fact that it refers players to White
Dwarf, Codex: Imperial Guard and/or Codex: Space Marines rather than printing
rules found there make the whole thing seem unfinished.
The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no means a
'nicely-done Codex'.
Philip Bowles
The Cheshire Cat
"Helicon 1" <helic...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2ef45f19.02100...@posting.google.com...
actually, chapters are to legions what companies are to chapters. so one
legion would comprise 10 chapters with 10 companies each.
The Cheshire Cat
"Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
personally? i hope that C:Ordo Malleus is done better. if its not, i may
just throw my hands up in disgust at the whole thing.
qr...@san.rr.yourhead.com
> Qrab wrote:
>
>
> >>As for Khorne - the Death Guard have the added rule that, being
> >>infantry-based, if the army has more than two Plague Marine units
> >>with Rhinos the extras are counted as Fast Attack. Nurgle also has
>
> > THIS FUCKING SUCKS!!! Looks like all my Plague Marines are going on
> > Ebay. ARRRGGGH!!!!
>
>
> Er, no, you'll be trading them to the other SoCalWH losers
> for things you want. We're happy to take pretty much any
> models you've put together . . .
I've got a list in my head as I type! I've also got the new Codex in
front of me!1!!1!
--
Be seeing you-
Qrab
remove yourhead to reply
Cheezhankrn
"The Cheshire Cat" <idont...@neitherdoyou.com> wrote in message
news:NZLm9.17445$Lg2.4...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Where did that come from?
A legion is the marine organisation used before the heresy. They were very
large, basically as large as required and could be supported by recruiting
techniques.
The average might have been 10,000 for a legion but they varied widely in
size and internal structure. eg Ultramarines had many chapters worth, the
thousand sons were not much bigger than a modern chapter.
A chapter is the post heresy chapter organisation based on Roboute Guilliman
codex. It is, or at least most are, 10 companies.
When the legions were split into chapters it was far from even.
qr...@san.rr.yourhead.com
pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
Now that I have the new Codex in my hands, I will give the Death Guard
a going over. At first glance, it looks as if you've got the right of
it. Though you need to mount 2 DG units in Rhinos before you can put
others in FA. And remember, you can also have up to three Plague
Marine Havocs.
qr...@san.rr.yourhead.com
pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
> In article <anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Robert Williams"
> <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> >>
> >> >TROOPS
> >>
> >> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
> >
> >Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops
> >veterans...
>
> Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per
> squad - it wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best unit
> in the previous list.
>
> >>
> >> The new Chaos book is a failure.
> >
> >You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
>
> It's badly-edited and there seems to have been little regard paid
> to making points costs consistent across the army -
<snip>
> Plague Marines
> are barely changed (True Grit is a complete irrelevance as no
> Plague Marine unit comes with both bolters and close combat
> weapons)
Since I've only just gotten the new Codex, I haven't had time to fully
read the rules. Based on your initial review, I was left wondering
what was the point of giving Plague Marines True Grit if they no
longer had Plague Knives. However, if I understand correctly, Plague
Marines are just Chaos Marines with the Mark of Nurgle, so they have
the option of being equiped with a CCW and either a Bolter or Bolt
Pistol. They can't, however, be equiped with Heavy weapons.
Maka
>
> It's badly-edited and there seems to have been little regard paid to making
> points costs consistent across the army - the prime example is the
> Bloodletter/Flesh Hounds business. Both are subject to instability, though for
> one it is a far greater drawback than for the other, and both must be summoned,
> so there is no question of the Bloodletters being cheap because they have
> drawbacks the Hounds lack. Yet for 5pts on their cost they get +2Ld (which
> itself makes instability all but irrelevant for them), power weapons *and* a 3+
> save. What do they lose? Collars of Khorne - irrelevant. Cavalry move - barely
> less so.
They loose collars of khorne, a 12" assault move and I5. The Cav move
is really nice, a 12" assault gives them decent reach, and being big
models, they will block a lot of LOS once in hand to hand.
The flesh hounds are still over-priced, and the bloodletters are still
too cheap.
-Maka
The Blue Raja
news:anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
Well, on the one hand we have Phil's extensive review, which points out a
great number of flaws in the product.
On the other, we have your opinion, backed up solely by your fanboyesque
tendancies and no analysis of the product at all.
I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm going to go with Phil's judgement
on this one (at least until I see it myself).
--
The Blue Raja
"Yo Mumma is so phat, that DJ Sebastian Wolfe sampled her" - Rob Singers
RGMW FAQ - Is FAQ, is good
http://rgmw.b3p0.com/rgmw/rgmw-faq.html
The Cheshire Cat
"Cheezhankrn" <cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> wrote in message
news:3d9b96bc$0$18872$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
you might be right, but im absolutely sure that i read that somewhere. maybe
it was in the old rogue trader books or something, but im positive. doesnt
make me right though.
John Hwang
>> >TROOPS
>>
>> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>
>Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
Really? 2 MLs or 2 HBs per squad? Excellent. My complaints are withdrawn!
>> The new Chaos book is a failure.
>
>You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
If indeed I can field 5-man squads with 2 Heavy weapons per squad as Troops,
I'd be more inclined to agree with you.
OTOH, if I have to totally rejigger my army, I'm going to be more than a little
annoyed.
Robert Singers
> "Robert Williams" wrote
> > > The new Chaos book is a failure.
> >
> > You talk shite. Its a nicely done codex.
>
> Well, on the one hand we have Phil's extensive review, which points out a
> great number of flaws in the product.
> On the other, we have your opinion, backed up solely by your fanboyesque
> tendancies and no analysis of the product at all.
Hang on hang on ....... I'm going to have an old time moment
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Don't be such a Rob.
-
Rob Singers ("no the other Rob")
Read the faq at http://www.rgmw.org
Cheezhankrn
>
> Actually, this mistake was mine (unlike the others) - the reaper is where
it
> should be in the summary (R36", S7, AP4, Heavy 2 twin-linked). Though my
> understanding was that the reaper is a primitive autocannon (as supported
by
> its 36" range) and the only one Chaos has access to, so why do they use
normal
> autocannon too?
A reaper autocannon is more like a primitive assault cannon.
ie its job is high fire rate
Autocannon are older tech than both.
I'm glad Mr Woo, my Termy heavy, gets his reaper back.
Cheezhankrn
> In article <3d9ad05e$0$18870$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Cheezhankrn"
> >"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >
> >So you don't get the old cheap Sorc but you can give a squads aspiring
champ
> >the mark of Tzeentch and he can then have spells?
>
> or upgrade a squad with the Mark of Tzeentch
> and one of its members to an Aspiring Champion - you can no longer give
> Aspiring Champions Marks of their own; if they have a Mark all models in
their
> unit must also have it. The Mark of Tzeentch is bad
Especially as I have always hated the rubric. The core of my warbands fluff
is 1ksons that were off planet when the rubric was cast, refusing to give up
the wonder of tentacles.
I was hoping for some more Sorcs. I'll guess I'll have to stay as is, Lord
and Lieutenant Sorcs.
I miss Thrall wizards as a mark for Tzeentch troops.
> but the Mark of Chaos
> Undivided is a real irritant - it's only 1pt per model but it adds up, and
the
> problem is that you need a Marked unit to carry a Chaos Icon. So if you
want to
> summon Daemons at all you have to have at least one Marked unit.
Hmm. I'll have to think about if my present MoCU champ led units stay marked
or just be renegades.
> >> CHOSEN
>
> One reaper autocannon or heavy flamer for every three models in the unit
with
> Terminator armour
Nice to have my reaper back and to be able to field my flamer termy again in
a small squad.
P Bowles
qr...@san.rr.yourhead.com writes:
>Since I've only just gotten the new Codex, I haven't had time to fully
>read the rules. Based on your initial review, I was left wondering
>what was the point of giving Plague Marines True Grit if they no
>longer had Plague Knives. However, if I understand correctly, Plague
>Marines are just Chaos Marines with the Mark of Nurgle, so they have
>the option of being equiped with a CCW and either a Bolter or Bolt
>Pistol. They can't, however, be equiped with Heavy weapons.
I didn't notice any weapon restrictions for Nurgle - as far as I'm aware you
can have PM Havocs quite happily, as well as heavy weapons in normal squads.
Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw or bolter; they can't have
bolter/ccw, which makes True Grit worthless except for characters. Just more
evidence that a lot of this Codex wasn't thought out.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> writes:
>Especially as I have always hated the rubric. The core of my warbands fluff
>is 1ksons that were off planet when the rubric was cast, refusing to give up
>the wonder of tentacles.
>I was hoping for some more Sorcs. I'll guess I'll have to stay as is, Lord
>and Lieutenant Sorcs.
>I miss Thrall wizards as a mark for Tzeentch troops.
They're a wargear option for Tzeentch characters now - humans you can sacrifice
to cast more spells (oops, use more psychic powers) in a turn - so if your
character has four of them and the Bolt of Change he could use it up to five
times in a turn, twice a turn over several turns etc.
>> but the Mark of Chaos
>> Undivided is a real irritant - it's only 1pt per model but it adds up, and
>the
>> problem is that you need a Marked unit to carry a Chaos Icon. So if you
>want to
>> summon Daemons at all you have to have at least one Marked unit.
>
>Hmm. I'll have to think about if my present MoCU champ led units stay marked
>or just be renegades.
No CSM unit has to be Marked - even the non-aligned Legions don't require you
to take the MoCU, they just don't let you take any Mark *except* MoCU - it just
makes Daemon summoning annoying.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> writes:
>"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20021002040234.25779.00000975@mb-
>>
>> Actually, this mistake was mine (unlike the others) - the reaper is where
>it
>> should be in the summary (R36", S7, AP4, Heavy 2 twin-linked). Though my
>> understanding was that the reaper is a primitive autocannon (as supported
>by
>> its 36" range) and the only one Chaos has access to, so why do they use
>normal
>> autocannon too?
>
>A reaper autocannon is more like a primitive assault cannon.
Okay. So why's it better than an assault cannon?
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
>They loose collars of khorne,
Which are all but worthless.
a 12" assault move and I5. The Cav move
>is really nice,
Since they can be summoned into play, it's relatively inconsequential - and
what's more Furies and Screamers pay a lot less for the same basic stats with a
jump pack move, which is better than a cavalry move.
a 12" assault gives them decent reach, and being big
>models, they will block a lot of LOS once in hand to hand.
>The flesh hounds are still over-priced, and the bloodletters are still
>too cheap.
Exactly the problem - presumably the two units were written up by the same
person, so there is no excuse at all for such a disparity in quality between
two daemonic units with very similar stats. A lot of the Flesh Hounds' problem
stems from the fact that, without power weapons, good armour and the Ld to pass
tests reliably, they suffer a *lot* more from Instability than Bloodletters,
for whom it is all but negligible - it's rare enough for them to lose a combat
in the first place, but even if they do they'll reliably pass the Ld test. That
difference in effect should really be factored into the cost.
Philip Bowles
Rob Singers
got any revisions you want to include?
David Gausebeck
>>> should be in the summary (R36", S7, AP4, Heavy 2 twin-linked). Though my
>>> understanding was that the reaper is a primitive autocannon (as supported by
>>> its 36" range) and the only one Chaos has access to, so why do they use normal
>>> autocannon too?
>>
>>A reaper autocannon is more like a primitive assault cannon.
>
>Okay. So why's it better than an assault cannon?
Because the assault cannon is still off commiserating with the
shuricannon about a severe case of V2 backlash?
-Dave
P Bowles
>got any revisions you want to include?
I'll produce a revised version and e-mail it to you - there are a couple of
errors in the piece I need to correct and I'll probably add some of the stuff
I've mentioned in subsequent posts.
Philip Bowles
Daniel Bond
> In article <3d9bd531$0$18874$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Cheezhankrn"
> <cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> writes:
>
> >Especially as I have always hated the rubric. The core of my warbands
fluff
> >is 1ksons that were off planet when the rubric was cast, refusing to give
up
> >the wonder of tentacles.
> >I was hoping for some more Sorcs. I'll guess I'll have to stay as is,
Lord
> >and Lieutenant Sorcs.
>
> >I miss Thrall wizards as a mark for Tzeentch troops.
>
> They're a wargear option for Tzeentch characters now - humans you can
sacrifice
> to cast more spells (oops, use more psychic powers) in a turn - so if your
> character has four of them and the Bolt of Change he could use it up to
five
> times in a turn, twice a turn over several turns etc.
Except under the Thrall Wizard Bit it says you can only "use" one Thrall
Wizard per turn.
Daniel Bond
Stephane
one
> > > legion would comprise 10 chapters with 10 companies each.
> >
> > Where did that come from?
> > A legion is the marine organisation used before the heresy. They were
very
> > large, basically as large as required and could be supported by
recruiting
> > techniques.
> > The average might have been 10,000 for a legion but they varied widely
in
> > size and internal structure. eg Ultramarines had many chapters worth,
the
> > thousand sons were not much bigger than a modern chapter.
> >
> > A chapter is the post heresy chapter organisation based on Roboute
> Guilliman
> > codex. It is, or at least most are, 10 companies.
> > When the legions were split into chapters it was far from even.
> >
> >
>
> you might be right, but im absolutely sure that i read that somewhere.
maybe
> it was in the old rogue trader books or something, but im positive. doesnt
> make me right though.
>
from foolproof... OTOH, I remember clearly later fluff (2nd ed or maybe from
Space Marine) stating that the legions had very varying size. The fact that
the Ultramarines founded 17 other chapter after the codex was put into use
put their size after the heresy and whatever combat they may have seen
inbetween at 17 000 Marines. Other legions (or what was left of them), such
as the Salamanders weren't big enough to be splitted.
I'd say that only the DA would have been a big legion aside from the
Ultramarines. The fact that they founded a handful of other chapters _after_
the split and the battle for their planet (I talking 2nd ed fluff, since all
this didn't exist in RT's fluff) would put their original size as pretty
big... out of the blue, I'd say about 12 000... say half got renegades, then
half of both sides kill each other, that leaves 3 chapters worth of
troops... Seems consistent.
So, considering the various second founding chapter we know of from 2nd ed f
luff, the actual _average_ size for a legion would be smaller than 10 000
marines though.
John Hwang
>> "DJ Jizzy Bear" keepin...@homeboys.com wrote:
>> >You and me both. Oh well, back to painting Eldar...
>>
>> Ha! That's just about the only army of mine which I'd count as
>> fully-painted and able to field a fully-based force out of. I've just
>> gotta finish painting those couple dozen Marines to clear them
>> off the plate.
>
>Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
>enthusiasm I can't summon up.
Sorry to hear it. I'd suggest you need to hang around cool guys like RTM,
Maka, and Qrab to become more inspired.
Tho I'm not sure I want to hear about how you can't summon things up in your
old age. Ugh.
DJ Jizzy Bear
"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote in message
news:20021003123430...@mb-mq.news.cs.com...
> "DJ Jizzy Bear" keepin...@homeboys.com wrote:
> >"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
> >> "DJ Jizzy Bear" keepin...@homeboys.com wrote:
>
> >> >You and me both. Oh well, back to painting Eldar...
> >>
> >> Ha! That's just about the only army of mine which I'd count as
> >> fully-painted and able to field a fully-based force out of. I've just
> >> gotta finish painting those couple dozen Marines to clear them
> >> off the plate.
> >
> >Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
> >enthusiasm I can't summon up.
>
> Sorry to hear it. I'd suggest you need to hang around cool guys like RTM,
> Maka, and Qrab to become more inspired.
Yeah, I'm in need of it. I've got some good blokes from Mongoose though, so
things should turn the corner. We're busy DnDing at present though. Matt
Sprange's elf noble got his army pissed on in a pub last week...
>
> Tho I'm not sure I want to hear about how you can't summon things up in
your
> old age. Ugh.
No problems to report in that department...yet.
Robert Williams
> In article <anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Robert Williams"
> <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> >>
> >> >TROOPS
> >>
> >> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
> >
> >Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
>
> Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per squad -
it
> wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best unit in the previous
list.
Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no means
a
> 'nicely-done Codex'.
It looks nice to me. OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
Rob
Robert Williams
> Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw or bolter; they can't have
> bolter/ccw,
You are wrong. The option in the chaos marine squad list states that a
chaos space marine may have a CCW and either a bolter or a bolt pistol.
Nothing changes this if you give the squad a mark of nurgle, in or out of a
Deathguard list.
Rob
John Hwang
>"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote ...
>> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>> >> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>> >
>> >Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
>>
>> Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per
>> squad - it wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best unit in
>> the previous list.
>
>Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
Wrong. The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more and better
firepower than what would otherwise be available. Otherwise, one might was
well play Khorne.
>> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no means
>>a 'nicely-done Codex'.
>
>It looks nice to me.
Yes, GW puts lots of pretty piccies in its books. As opposed to the serious
work of editing and playtesting.
>OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
>erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong. We
traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted Bloodletters. We
traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush. You're telling me that's
"so much better"? I think you need to put down the crack pipe and reconsider
the two Codices.
Robert Williams
> >
> >Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
>
> Wrong.
Not the case.
The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more and better
> firepower than what would otherwise be available.
Its not just about firepower. Its also about experience and skills (and
other equipment). You can make them veterans.
> >> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no
means
> >>a 'nicely-done Codex'.
> >
> >It looks nice to me.
>
> Yes, GW puts lots of pretty piccies in its books. As opposed to the
serious
> work of editing and playtesting.
I wasn't just reffering to the pictures.
>
> >OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
> >erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>
> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong.
Wow, you really think this new codex is worse than the old one?! Have you
actually read it?
You're telling me that's
> "so much better"?
I'm telling you its so much better because it is a workable list, and gives
you some fluffy options.
Rob
Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer
"DJ Jizzy Bear" <keepin...@homeboys.com> wrote in message
news:anfjcp$fg5$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
> enthusiasm I can't summon up.
>
The Cheshire Cat
hmmm. hwang is getting emotion. is it the end times already?
P Bowles
<ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>> Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw or bolter; they can't have
>> bolter/ccw,
>
>You are wrong.
Okay, on that I am - it hardly makes any difference as Plague Marines can't be
equipped for an effective assault role and a one-handed bolter is no different
from a pistol in a moving unit.
Philip Bowles
P Bowles
<ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20021002162808...@mb-ci.aol.com...
>> In article <anfedd$s44$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Robert Williams"
>> <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> >>
>> >> >TROOPS
>> >>
>> >> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
>> >
>> >Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops veterans...
>>
>> Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per squad -
>it
>> wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best unit in the previous
>list.
>
>Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
Not thematically, but when people complain that you can't have 'CSM Veterans'
as Troops they are referring to Veterans as they were in the previous list, as
you no doubt know full well. You can call them what you want, but the simple
fact is that where once there was an option for a unit with two heavy weapons
to be a Troops choice in the CSM army, there is no longer, and it is this that
causes the complaints.
As for the Veteran abilities, three are unsuitable for an army that isn't
themed to a specific Legion and doesn't know in advance what scenario it will
be used in, one is only available to bikers and Steed-mounted characters and
Move Through Cover simply isn't that useful considering the role of a basic
Marine squad. The drawback with Furious Charge is that CSMs aren't good enough
in close combat to be used in an assault role, especially as Daemons exist. The
drawback with counter-attack is that they aren't good enough in a defensive
close combat role to make effective enough use of it to justify spending 20 or
so extra points on it - it's a nice ability for Space Wolves, whose power
weapon access makes the effective extra attacks worth something and who get it
free anyway, but it's not one to pay for for CSMs. As for the final one, Tank
Hunter costs 30pts per 10-man squad whether that's a CSM squad or a Havoc
squad, so it is simply too inefficient to use it in standard Troops squads. So,
in practice, very few CSM Troops will have Veteran skills.
>
>> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no means
>a
>> 'nicely-done Codex'.
>
>It looks nice to me. OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
>erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
That had an abundance of options and a few errors as well - and at least it got
simple formatting issues, like putting all the wargear in one place, all the
special rules in one place and the army list entries actually in the army list,
right, all points where this book manifestly fails. Nor was it filled with lazy
ommissions such as 'these rules are found in White Dwarf and the 2003 Annual'
(minor psychic powers) or in another Codex (Iron Warrior vehicle options), even
though there's room to waste space on extra section headings and redundant
comments like 'Iron Warriors can take servo-arms' when the servo-arm is in the
Chaos armoury for anyone to take. What next - 'a character may take a bolt
pistol'?
Philip Bowles
Robert Williams
> >
> >It looks nice to me. OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a
few
> >erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>
> That had an abundance of options and a few errors as well
Not even close to as many options as the new one, and not the scope for
properly doing specific legions.
Rob
Robert Singers
Excellant. Do you also have your other reviews archived?
Robert Singers
> Yeah, I'm in need of it. I've got some good blokes from Mongoose though, so
> things should turn the corner. We're busy DnDing at present though. Matt
> Sprange's elf noble got his army pissed on in a pub last week...
Who's DMing?
DJ Jizzy Bear
"Robert Singers" <rsin...@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:anieu3$1mo6$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
Paul Tucker - Mongoose's new Senior Editor. We kept him busy tonight. Best
member of our party is Matt's NPC manservant, Gerald. Lowest roll he made
all evening was a 15...
DJ Jizzy Bear
"Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer" <hindu...@INFERNAL.yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:3d9c...@news.mhogaming.com...
All marines - I don't do daemons. I'm going to hang on to them, although it
would be an easy paint job to convert them to Iron Warriors...
DJ Jizzy Bear
<snip>
> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong. We
> traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted Bloodletters. We
> traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush. You're telling me
that's
> "so much better"? I think you need to put down the crack pipe and
reconsider
> the two Codices.
Go Hwangster!
DJ Jizzy Bear
"The Cheshire Cat" <idont...@neitherdoyou.com> wrote in message
news:Dp0n9.18804$Lg2.4...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
That happens after you find the shift key.
DJ Jizzy Bear
"Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:anib70$ud2$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Yeah, the detail on the Black Legion is particularly impressive.
Robert Singers
> "Robert Singers" wrote
> > Who's DMing?
>
> Paul Tucker - Mongoose's new Senior Editor. We kept him busy tonight. Best
> member of our party is Matt's NPC manservant, Gerald. Lowest roll he made
> all evening was a 15...
Generally the smartest member of any party in the games I've run has been
Bernard the Dungeon donkey. Now Bernard is a very special mini and appears to
be identical to one of the Foundry Beast of Burden range so I presume it's a
mould from when GW and Ral Partha did D&D minis. I mailed Foundry but they
never answered. I've been looking for the picture of him but they seemed to
have pulled it from their site
Bernard always gets out of the way of trouble and has an incredibly high
wilderness lore and intuit direction. He's always waiting back at the Inn when
they've got themselves into trouble and had to run etc.
Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer
>
> "Craig Little, prodigal RGMWer" <hindu...@INFERNAL.yahoo.com> wrote in
> message news:3d9c...@news.mhogaming.com...
> >
> > "DJ Jizzy Bear" <keepin...@homeboys.com> wrote in message
> > news:anfjcp$fg5$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > >
> > > Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
> > > enthusiasm I can't summon up.
> > >
> > What have you got, and would you be willing to sell any of it?
>
> All marines - I don't do daemons. I'm going to hang on to them, although
it
> would be an easy paint job to convert them to Iron Warriors...
>
Samuel Campbell
all your reviews. I haven't had time yet.
--
Samuel Campbell, #109, Housedad, Gamer and RGMW outtakes collector
"Sam, what would RGMW be without you?" - Marshall Dragoo
http://www.rgmw.org - rec.games.miniatures.warhammer FAQ
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tzeentch - Tzeentch Yahoo Group
The Cheshire Cat
> > hmmm. hwang is getting emotion. is it the end times already?
>
> That happens after you find the shift key.
>
do i even have one of those?
Samuel Campbell
> > >
> > > hmmm. hwang is getting emotion. is it the end times already?
> >
> > That happens after you find the shift key.
> >
>
> do i even have one of those?
>
incrdbil
<the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>Well, on the one hand we have Phil's extensive review, which points out a
>great number of flaws in the product.
>On the other, we have your opinion, backed up solely by your fanboyesque
>tendancies and no analysis of the product at all.
>
>I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm going to go with Phil's judgement
>on this one (at least until I see it myself).
::golf clap::
Well said, and briefly done as well.
incrdbil
<cheez...@yahoo4spam.com> wrote:
>A reaper autocannon is more like a primitive assault cannon.
>ie its job is high fire rate
Well, in case, the primitive tech outclasses the modern one.
The Cheshire Cat
"Samuel Campbell" <mani...@wink.optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3d9cd958$0$22173$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "The Cheshire Cat" <idont...@neitherdoyou.com> wrote in message
> news:YK4n9.18999$Lg2.5...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> > > >
> > > > hmmm. hwang is getting emotion. is it the end times already?
> > >
> > > That happens after you find the shift key.
> > >
> >
> > do i even have one of those?
> >
> You just typed a question mark, you lying son of a btich.
>
i copy and paste them.
Cheezhankrn
"incrdbil" <incr...@flinthills.com> wrote in message
news:3d9cf99f...@usenet.flinthills.com...
mars.
but yes,
Assault Cannon should be Assault 4 or something
Cheezhankrn
>
> I didn't notice any weapon restrictions for Nurgle - as far as I'm aware
you
> can have PM Havocs quite happily, as well as heavy weapons in normal
squads.
> Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw or bolter; they can't have
> bolter/ccw,
I've only glanced through in store but...
Yes they can. For CSM troops it says CCW and BP or bolter.
unless it says something different for plague marines.
incrdbil
wrote:
>>Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
>
>Wrong. The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more and better
>firepower than what would otherwise be available. Otherwise, one might was
>well play Khorne.
yeesh, I'm agreeing again with Hwang, but it's pretty damn obvious the
main attraction of veterans was for the SCAFH. Infiltrate is a cute
trick, but rately dependable, and heck, it was better used for settign
up heavy weapon laden CSM squads with great fields of fire.
>
>>OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
>>erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>
>That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong. We
>traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted Bloodletters. We
>traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush. You're telling me that's
>"so much better"?
Ouch.
Samuel Campbell
John Hwang
>"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
Now, now, nothing that drastic. It's just that Rob is clearly wrong here, and
needs to be shown the errors of his ways in the strongest possible terms.
--
--- John Hwang "JohnHw...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
John Hwang
>
>> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong.
>> We traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted
>> Bloodletters. We traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate
>> rush. You're telling me that's "so much better"? I think you need to put
>> down the crack pipe and reconsider the two Codices.
>
>Go Hwangster!
Woo-hoo!
See what I've been learning on RGMW? :)
John Hwang
>> >Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can carry.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
Well great holy hell, if Robbie W says that the reason people took Veterans was
for Infil-frickin'-tration instead of the ability to take 2 kick-ass weapons,
he *must* be right!
*Not* the case.
Or perhaps all-wise and all-knowing Robbie W can explain to me why it is that I
prefer to field 4 squads of Veterans each with 2 Heavy Weapons in addition to
Havocs with 3 Heavy Weapons instead of ordinary CSM with only 1 Heavy Weapon. .
> The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more and better
>> firepower than what would otherwise be available.
>
>Its not just about firepower.
Yes, it is, you moron. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument.
>Its also about experience and skills (and
>other equipment). You can make them veterans.
That's great! Just show me where the option exists to field that 2nd Heavy
Weapon in the unit, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, STFU.
>> >> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is by no
>> >>means a 'nicely-done Codex'.
>> >
>> >It looks nice to me.
>>
>> Yes, GW puts lots of pretty piccies in its books. As opposed to the
>> serious work of editing and playtesting.
>
>I wasn't just reffering to the pictures.
Well, given Phils' review, I can't imagine what else you might have been
referring to. I sure wasn't the Veteran unit entry, because that army is
clearly much less playable than it once was. And you sure weren't referring to
the Cypher and Fallen Angels entry, because those don't exist either. So tell
us, fanboy, what *were* you referring to?
>> >OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few
>> >erros, but its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>>
>> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out wrong.
>
>Wow, you really think this new codex is worse than the old one?!
Yes, I do.
>Have you actually read it?
Given the thoroughness of Phil's review, coupled with the answers to my
questions, I don't need to.
>> You're telling me that's
>> "so much better"?
>
>I'm telling you its so much better because it is a workable list, and gives
>you some fluffy options.
Yeah, like Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush. *That*' is really "Fluffy".
Or Plague Marines deciding they don't like Rhinos. That's really "Fluffy",
too.
But go ahead and show us something which you consider "Fluffy" in the new
Codex. I *dare* you.
Qrab
<keepin...@homeboys.com> wrote:
> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:anib70$ud2$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > > >
> > > >It looks nice to me. OK, maybe there is an abundance of
> > > >options and a few erros, but its just so much better than the
> > > >previous CSM codex.
> > >
> > > That had an abundance of options and a few errors as well
> >
> > Not even close to as many options as the new one, and not the
> > scope for properly doing specific legions.
>
> Yeah, the detail on the Black Legion is particularly impressive.
I agree that could've done something to set Black Legion apart from
being the Ultramarines of Chaos, but the book *is* better than the one
it replaced.
--
Be seeing you-
Qrab
remove yourhead to reply
John Hwang
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) writes:
>>"The Blue Raja" the_blue_ra...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
>>>"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Despite having not seen the book and just having to go off Phil's
>>>review, this is my immeadiate reaction too.
>>
>>At least you don't have a SCAFH-based Fallen Angels army which has
>>just been absolutely gutted and dustbinned by the new rules...
>>
>>When I heard about a full list of Legions, I was really hoping for a set
>>of official rules for the Fallen of the Dark Angels Legion. But no, it's
>>"Blood for the Blood Angels God" again. The one army we don't
>>need more of gets the lion's share,
>
>What, Iron Warriors? :-) Okay, World Eaters get Bloodletters, which
>is obviously a real advantage - on the other hand they are hampered
>by the Mark of Khorne (1 in 3 chance of being unable to shoot - a real
>drawback, not a BA or Bloodletter Instability type 'drawback')
Yeah, because you *really* want to shoot under 40k4v7 Assault rules, or with
Daemons which are only armed with 2-handed Power Weapons...
>and their assault troops may now be worth the points, but they won't
>win any prices in a head to head against real assault troops.
OTOH, they *do* have Daemons which will win in HtH against nearly any assault
troops you care to send against them.
>while the armies and forces which are most in need of
>>improvements get the least.
>
>You can't have it both ways - if you want a list which penalises assault
>variants, the Night Lords are *bound* to be crap...
I don't care about penalizing assault variants per se. I just don't want to
see them thrown any bonuses.
Jann Mikkelsen
(or use ascii, alt+063, messah tinks.)
Jann
John Hwang
>>still only 3 units.
>
>Be fair - one of those units can have up to 13 heavy
>weapons...
13 out of how many models? My standard for firepower is 40%, so that's out of
33 models?
>> In my last game of 1000 pts, I fielded 6 teams of Veterans
>>with a team of Havocs...
>
>Look at it this way - six Veteran squads under the old rules
>only allowed you 12 heavy weapons and took up all your
>Troops slots.
So? I still had 3 Elite slots and at least 1 HQ slot available. That's 10
slots in the FOC, in addition to the 3 Havocs.
>The full (in large games) 40 Chosen give you up to 13
>heavy weapons and take up one Elite slot. It could
>be worse.
Hard to see it. Those 40 Chosen would have given me 16 (3 more) Heavy weapons,
and 8x the granularity of fire under the old rules.
John Hwang
>> >"John Hwang" <johnhw...@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...
>> >Sadly I can filed about 3500 points of painted Black Legion. It's the
>> >enthusiasm I can't summon up.
>>
>> Sorry to hear it. I'd suggest you need to hang around cool guys like RTM,
>> Maka, and Qrab to become more inspired.
>
>Yeah, I'm in need of it. I've got some good blokes from Mongoose though, so
>things should turn the corner. We're busy DnDing at present though. Matt
>Sprange's elf noble got his army pissed on in a pub last week...
I thought Matt Sprange was supposed to be pretty darn cool, too... You need
*more* cool guys to hang around with.
>> Tho I'm not sure I want to hear about how you can't summon things up in
>> your old age. Ugh.
>
>No problems to report in that department...yet.
OK, better than the alternative.
Qrab
pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
> In article <qrab-4E4DB6.1...@news-server.san.rr.com>,
> qr...@san.rr.yourhead.com writes:
>
> >Since I've only just gotten the new Codex, I haven't had time to
> >fully read the rules. Based on your initial review, I was left
> >wondering what was the point of giving Plague Marines True Grit if
> >they no longer had Plague Knives. However, if I understand
> >correctly, Plague Marines are just Chaos Marines with the Mark of
> >Nurgle, so they have the option of being equiped with a CCW and
> >either a Bolter or Bolt Pistol. They can't, however, be equiped
> >with Heavy weapons.
>
> I didn't notice any weapon restrictions for Nurgle -
It's on page 51, left column, 2nd paragraph under _The Mark of Nurgle_.
> as far as I'm aware you can have PM Havocs quite happily, as well as
> heavy weapons in normal squads.
PM Havocs can only have special weapons. Normal PM squads cannot have
heavy weapons.
> Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw
> or bolter; they can't have bolter/ccw, which makes True Grit
> worthless except for characters.
Not true, as was pointed elsewhere.
> Just more evidence that a lot of this Codex wasn't thought out.
Nah, you just need to pay closer attention when reading.
Samuel Campbell
"Jann Mikkelsen" <vantr...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d9d...@news.mhogaming.com...
Robert Singers
> I thought Matt Sprange was supposed to be pretty darn cool, too... You need
> *more* cool guys to hang around with.
Well his last name does start with an "S" but his first name isn't Rob nor does
he have a funky non de plume like the Archdeacon so there's only so cool he can
be.
Qrab
johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
> "Robert Williams" ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> >"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote ...
> >> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> >> Where is the provision to take Veterans as Troops? Grr...
> >> >
> >> >Under the new codex, you can make your basic CSM troops
> >> >veterans...
> >>
> >> Hardly the same as they can still only have one heavy weapon per
> >> squad - it wasn't Infiltrate that made CSM Veterans the best
> >> unit in the previous list.
> >
> >Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can
> >carry.
>
> Wrong. The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more
> and better firepower than what would otherwise be available.
> Otherwise, one might was well play Khorne.
This was the point of Veterancy from *your* extremely limited view
point. Yes, things have changed, but you should actually read the
codex before you start crying. You'll notice that my opinion of Plague
Marines has changed now that I've actually had a chance to look at the
rules. Notably, the Plague Marine army I fielded last weekend will
remain pretty much the same under the new rules.
> >> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is
> >> by no means a 'nicely-done Codex'.
> >
> >It looks nice to me.
>
> Yes, GW puts lots of pretty piccies in its books. As opposed to
> the serious work of editing and playtesting.
I've not had a chance to read every last detail of the book, but I
haven't noticed any major editing errors and the layout is certainly
more user friendly than Codex:Tau. As for playtesting: this is GW
we're discussing, we are all familiar the nature of their playtesting.
> >OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few erros, but
> >its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>
> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out
> wrong.
You don't own the codex and haven't even browsed through it, how can
you be so certain?
> We traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted
> Bloodletters.
There is more to the list than the Bloodletters and Defilers. As for
Cypher - Doomrider was a more appropriate character in a book dealing
with Chaos Space Marines. I certainly don't miss him. He belongs in
the IG Codex.
> We traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush.
Have you actually faced this army yet? No? Then be quiet.
> You're telling me that's "so much better"? I think you need
> to put down the crack pipe and reconsider the two Codices.
I think you need to stop crying, and read the fucking codex. You're
behaving worse than those who complain about Eldar.
Qrab
pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
> In article <anhuuv$qu0$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Robert Williams"
> <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> Yes, they can have either bolt pistol/ccw or bolter; they can't
> >> have bolter/ccw,
> >
> >You are wrong.
>
> Okay, on that I am - it hardly makes any difference as Plague
> Marines can't be equipped for an effective assault role and a
> one-handed bolter is no different from a pistol in a moving unit.
True Grit is more of a defensive ability for more stationary units. I
agree that it doesn't necessarily fit with the Plague Marine concept.
Looking them over, Plague Marines are just as good, if not better,
than before. Sure, they lost Blight Grenades and Plague Knives as unit
options, but I rarely saw them have a significant impact on a game. I
think it's a better trade that they now have access to Frag, Krak and
two special weapons. They still get the option for BP&CCW which makes
them as good at assault any other marine unit, only tougher.
John Hwang
>johnhw...@cs.com.no.com (John Hwang) wrote:
>> "Robert Williams" ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
>> >"P Bowles" <pbo...@aol.com> wrote ...
>> >> "Robert Williams" <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>> >Veternacy isn't just about how many heavy weapons your unit can
>> >carry.
>>
>> Wrong. The entire *point* of Veterancy is the ability to have more
>> and better firepower than what would otherwise be available.
>> Otherwise, one might was well play Khorne.
>
>This was the point of Veterancy from *your* extremely limited view
>point.
Yes. As it's *my* army, the narrowness of my POV oughtn't be held against me.
>Yes, things have changed, but you should actually read the
>codex before you start crying.
I will. But from what I've seen, there's precious little to be excited over.
>You'll notice that my opinion of Plague
>Marines has changed now that I've actually had a chance to look at the
>rules. Notably, the Plague Marine army I fielded last weekend will
>remain pretty much the same under the new rules.
Yes. OTOH, your Plague Marines weren't set up to shoot everything dead like my
Fallen Angels were.
>> >> The army itself is more playable than once it was, but this is
>> >> by no means a 'nicely-done Codex'.
>> >
>> >It looks nice to me.
>>
>> Yes, GW puts lots of pretty piccies in its books. As opposed to
>> the serious work of editing and playtesting.
>
>I've not had a chance to read every last detail of the book, but I
>haven't noticed any major editing errors and the layout is certainly
>more user friendly than Codex:Tau. As for playtesting: this is GW
>we're discussing, we are all familiar the nature of their playtesting.
True.
>> >OK, maybe there is an abundance of options and a few erros, but
>> >its just so much better than the previous CSM codex.
>>
>> That is a highly debatable statement. I think you're flat out
>> wrong.
>
>You don't own the codex and haven't even browsed through it, how can
>you be so certain?
Because right now, I only care about a couple of things being present in the
Codex, and from all reports, they've been removed.
>> We traded Cypher and Veterans for Defilers and undercosted
>> Bloodletters.
>
>There is more to the list than the Bloodletters and Defilers. As for
>Cypher - Doomrider was a more appropriate character in a book
>dealing with Chaos Space Marines. I certainly don't miss him. He
>belongs in the IG Codex.
As long as he exists...
>> We traded SCAFH for Maka's Defiler-backed Khornate rush.
>
>Have you actually faced this army yet? No? Then be quiet.
Recall that I do have a minor penchant for theoretical analysis. :)
>> You're telling me that's "so much better"? I think you need
>> to put down the crack pipe and reconsider the two Codices.
>
>I think you need to stop crying, and read the fucking codex.
Oh, I will. But as above, I'm not at all looking forward to it.
>You're behaving worse than those who complain about Eldar.
Egad!
DJ Jizzy Bear
> "DJ Jizzy Bear" wrote
> > "Robert Singers" wrote
> > > Who's DMing?
> >
> > Paul Tucker - Mongoose's new Senior Editor. We kept him busy tonight.
Best
> > member of our party is Matt's NPC manservant, Gerald. Lowest roll he
made
> > all evening was a 15...
>
> Generally the smartest member of any party in the games I've run has been
> Bernard the Dungeon donkey. Now Bernard is a very special mini and
appears to
> be identical to one of the Foundry Beast of Burden range so I presume it's
a
> mould from when GW and Ral Partha did D&D minis. I mailed Foundry but
they
> never answered. I've been looking for the picture of him but they seemed
to
> have pulled it from their site
>
> Bernard always gets out of the way of trouble and has an incredibly high
> wilderness lore and intuit direction. He's always waiting back at the Inn
when
> they've got themselves into trouble and had to run etc.
We have a pony with very similar abilities. he even survives arrow wounds.
--
DJ Jizzy Bear
"I'm in with the Out crowd..."
Putting hardcore spooge into music since yesterday afternoon. Respect!!!!!!!