anyone else hate playing against guys that don't exist?
Mike H.
pleasure out of killing a block of plastic or peuter that you get from
killing a beautifully painted Dragon prince, or Bretonnian Grail Knight.
Most of my friends play with unpainted figures, except for two who have most
of their armies painted. One of my friends just started an Undead army and
wanted to play a game. I said yes, and ended up playing a bunch of black
bases. I ended up beating him really badly, I took 21 grail knights (in one
unit) and 30 archers. 'Twas quite cruel really, it was his first game after
all. Whoops, going off topic again, okay, back to the point. I was
knocking off skeletons like crazy, they were flying left and right. But I
got absolutely nothing out of removing a bunch of plastic bases. I felt
like I had killed a bunch of air.
I always play only with the troops that I actually possess. But lately my
friends have taken to playing with troops they don't have and using other
troops in their place. In a game I played against Empire, I knew the kid
had 20 flagellants, 20 halberdiers, 10 Reiksguard knights, Supreme
Patriarch, 3 great cannons and 2 hellblasters. I knew he had all of those.
I ended up playing against a unit of 30 greatswords with crown of command,
and 5 hellblasters, with detachments of handgunners, none of which he
actually had. He, on the other hand, knew exactly what kind of troops I
had. In another game he even took an invisible Griffon. Would anyone blame
me for being pissed at this?
T.M. Porter
Mike H. wrote in message <77lqcn$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Asmodeus
Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
No, not at all. I remember one instance, when one of my friend's younger
brothers actually brought a plastic fridge magnet, shaped like a fried egg,
which he wanted to use as an Emperor Dragon. Basically it usually occurs
when somebody wants to field a large, expensive and impressive model which
they don't have. Another scenario where this commonly happens is when
someone has the Summon Skeletons/Raise Dead/Skeleton Horde spell(s) and
doesn't have enough spare models when he comes to cast them - but luckily,
GW supplies you with 32 plastic Skinks when you buy Warhammer, so they do
just as well. Sometimes, of course, one runs out of Skinks, and so one has
to resort to empty plastic bases, items of Arcane Architecture and small
stones to represent the Undead (don't laugh, I've seen and suffered this
from younger opponents in the past).
It's annoying, I agree, but don't worry, people *do* grow out of it once
they reach the age of 13 or so.
--
A.
Rechtschreibungsfuehrer of the RGMW Grammar Nazi League
and Commissioner for RGMWCNSONT
Email: Alister....@btinternet.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/9492/
"Bring back the . . .
Who is the . . .
We want the . . ."
ChrisMan
think people post them there?
--
ChrisMan...
...
Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:77m4o7$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> this kids really quite nice, but he's an only child living in a huge
>house so he's a little spoiled, and incredibly stubborn. He's also
>incredibly smart, it's impossible to argue with him because he always
>presents good arguments and refuses to acknowledge yours. He's a good
>player too, it's just that he can get really annoying when he starts taking
>invisible guys. In the game I ended up destroying his unit of 30
>greatswords to the very last man, but didn't get much pleasure out of
>killing a bunch of bases.
>
> The kid, (Matt) is a nut for tactics. He did a really clever move. He
>put 30 greatswords with crown of command with detachments and reiksguard to
>the right of the unit, flagellants to the left. He took book of ashur and
>used a skaven spell to make my KORs flee, so when my grail knights charged
>they lost their reinforcements. Next turn, flagellants and reiksguard
>smushed my grail knights unit with the general. battle went downhill from
>there. Kind of a cheesy tactic, but it worked very well. Later when I was
>surfing the net, I found the site Necromantic Archives and found a tactics
>article that described EXACTLY what he did. exactly. grrr.
>
>
>Asmodeus wrote in message <01be4022$3cfe0a20$cc3863c3@default>...
>>
>>
>>Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
>><77m3jl$3...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>>
>>> unfortunately, this kid's 15.
>>
>>Must be underdeveloped. Give him some hormone tablets for his birthday or
>>something.
>>
>>Oh and some breaking news, guess what, he's
>>> going to use his monster base to represent (go figure) an emperor
dragon.
>>
>>Ho hum . . .
>>
>>> argh. This is getting a little annoying. Especially considering I
>>> originally joined the game because I loved painting the figures and he
>>> joined just for the game and the tactics. If he had his way he wouldn't
>>> paint any of his figures. so far I got him to paint his great cannon.
>>> looks rather awful too. oh well.
>>
>>If it does annoy you, tell him he can't use household objects to represent
>>monsters or heroes. I'd be inclined to let him get on with it if it makes
>>him happy, but if it detracts from your enjoyment, try and explain that
you
>>really *don't* get a kick out of playing against movement trays and
>>miniature furniture, or whatever he start using next.
>>
>>--
>>A.
>>"Hormone tablets, probably"
>>Rechtschreibungsfuehrer of the RGMW Grammar Nazi League
>>and Commissioner for RGMWCNSONT
>>Email: Alister....@btinternet.com
>>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/9492/
>>"Bring back the . . .
>>Who is the . . .
>>We want the . . ."
>>
>>>
>>> Asmodeus wrote in message <01be4018$0c38e2c0$cc3863c3@default>...
Big Purple Head
it's okay if you are trying out a whole new race for the first time with
another regular gaming buddy, or trying top use figs that don't yet
exist (played a game w/ jaba234 that included 4 de raiders represented
by old speeders). The people who just do it because they are cheap can
blow off. On a second point I hate it when people don't put at least
one fig (or point out what is what) on OPEN TOPPED transport vehicles.
Nothing is worse than finding out that the scout squad w/ bolt pistols
you are looking at is armed with sniper rifles in the middle of turn 3.
People often use other figs, shitheads don't tell you until the middle
of a game (I don't play those people twice). Lets have some honesty in
advertising in all games.
Big Purple, no that metal stealer is a
patriarch, Head
ps. I once went to a con (Marmalade Dog at WMU in Kalamazoo, MI) that
advertised that anything was allowed (said nickels right on the flyer)
to be substituted for one unit. I took a set of slota bases inserted
nickels standing up and carefully flocked the bases. I used them for a
unit I already had.
Asmodeus wrote:
>
> T.M. Porter <port...@apk.net> wrote in article
> <77lsaq$2pr$1...@plonk.apk.net>...
>
> > I would never play that person again.
>
> Well, I think that's a *little* drastic, don't you? I daresay he's fairly
> harmless, just has an annoying childish habit.
>
> --
> A.
> "All kids want to do things they can't . . . right Alec?"
> Rechtschreibungsfuehrer of the RGMW Grammar Nazi League
> and Commissioner for RGMWCNSONT
> Email: Alister....@btinternet.com
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/9492/
> "Bring back the . . .
> Who is the . . .
> We want the . . ."
>
> > Mike H. wrote in message <77lqcn$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Asmodeus
Jaba234
it.Some in our group wanted to play Dark Eldar when they first came out. I saw
pewter and plastic glued to bases.Also some of my old landspeeders were used[my
idea instead of puffs of cotton]as Raiders.It wasn't the same feel as playing
against painted stuff.Then again I hadn't fought DE before either. I normally
do not like to paint up a bunch of a certain kind of troops unless I learn
their effectiveness on the battle field.If they work like I think they should I
get inspired to paint them up complete.My Tallern Rough Riders are a good
example. I scratch built Dark Ridersd for my Dark Elf army and painted them
complete BEFORE I fielded them as I knew they would be worth it.No one here had
seen Dark Riders before then,let alone fight against them.Threw a few people
off when they flank marched close to the enemy. To me it all depends on if I
can them in time to game the next week with them or if I need to get something
more important done,like scratch-building a Vindicator tank for my marines. It
goes with the territory.Hopefully your problem will go away and every mini you
fight will be painted.If not substitute some of your painted mini's the same
size.That Griffon could be another type of flyer you have instead of invisible.
Nelson
Mike H.
going to use his monster base to represent (go figure) an emperor dragon.
originally joined the game because I loved painting the figures and he
joined just for the game and the tactics. If he had his way he wouldn't
paint any of his figures. so far I got him to paint his great cannon.
looks rather awful too. oh well.
Asmodeus wrote in message <01be4018$0c38e2c0$cc3863c3@default>...
>
>
>Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
>No, not at all. I remember one instance, when one of my friend's younger
>brothers actually brought a plastic fridge magnet, shaped like a fried egg,
>which he wanted to use as an Emperor Dragon. Basically it usually occurs
>when somebody wants to field a large, expensive and impressive model which
>they don't have. Another scenario where this commonly happens is when
>someone has the Summon Skeletons/Raise Dead/Skeleton Horde spell(s) and
>doesn't have enough spare models when he comes to cast them - but luckily,
>GW supplies you with 32 plastic Skinks when you buy Warhammer, so they do
>just as well. Sometimes, of course, one runs out of Skinks, and so one has
>to resort to empty plastic bases, items of Arcane Architecture and small
>stones to represent the Undead (don't laugh, I've seen and suffered this
>from younger opponents in the past).
>
>It's annoying, I agree, but don't worry, people *do* grow out of it once
>they reach the age of 13 or so.
>
>--
>A.
Asmodeus
Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<77m3jl$3...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> unfortunately, this kid's 15.
Must be underdeveloped. Give him some hormone tablets for his birthday or
something.
Oh and some breaking news, guess what, he's
> going to use his monster base to represent (go figure) an emperor dragon.
Ho hum . . .
> argh. This is getting a little annoying. Especially considering I
> originally joined the game because I loved painting the figures and he
> joined just for the game and the tactics. If he had his way he wouldn't
> paint any of his figures. so far I got him to paint his great cannon.
> looks rather awful too. oh well.
If it does annoy you, tell him he can't use household objects to represent
monsters or heroes. I'd be inclined to let him get on with it if it makes
him happy, but if it detracts from your enjoyment, try and explain that you
really *don't* get a kick out of playing against movement trays and
miniature furniture, or whatever he start using next.
--
A.
"Hormone tablets, probably"
Mike H.
house so he's a little spoiled, and incredibly stubborn. He's also
incredibly smart, it's impossible to argue with him because he always
presents good arguments and refuses to acknowledge yours. He's a good
player too, it's just that he can get really annoying when he starts taking
invisible guys. In the game I ended up destroying his unit of 30
greatswords to the very last man, but didn't get much pleasure out of
killing a bunch of bases.
The kid, (Matt) is a nut for tactics. He did a really clever move. He
put 30 greatswords with crown of command with detachments and reiksguard to
the right of the unit, flagellants to the left. He took book of ashur and
used a skaven spell to make my KORs flee, so when my grail knights charged
they lost their reinforcements. Next turn, flagellants and reiksguard
smushed my grail knights unit with the general. battle went downhill from
there. Kind of a cheesy tactic, but it worked very well. Later when I was
surfing the net, I found the site Necromantic Archives and found a tactics
article that described EXACTLY what he did. exactly. grrr.
Asmodeus wrote in message <01be4022$3cfe0a20$cc3863c3@default>...
Asmodeus
Mike H. <hunt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<77m4o7$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> this kids really quite nice, but he's an only child living in a huge
> house so he's a little spoiled, and incredibly stubborn.
I live in a huge house and I'm incredibly spoiled, but I don't take
invisible models :)
He's also
> incredibly smart, it's impossible to argue with him because he always
> presents good arguments and refuses to acknowledge yours.
Sounds like a typical only child to me ;)
He's a good
> player too, it's just that he can get really annoying when he starts
taking
> invisible guys. In the game I ended up destroying his unit of 30
> greatswords to the very last man, but didn't get much pleasure out of
> killing a bunch of bases.
No, I know what you mean.
>
> The kid, (Matt) is a nut for tactics. He did a really clever move.
He
> put 30 greatswords with crown of command with detachments and reiksguard
to
> the right of the unit, flagellants to the left. He took book of ashur
and
> used a skaven spell to make my KORs flee, so when my grail knights
charged
> they lost their reinforcements. Next turn, flagellants and reiksguard
> smushed my grail knights unit with the general. battle went downhill
from
> there. Kind of a cheesy tactic, but it worked very well. Later when I
was
> surfing the net, I found the site Necromantic Archives and found a
tactics
> article that described EXACTLY what he did. exactly. grrr.
Yeah, I have an opponent who does that - rips his tactics out of wherever
he can get them. Difference is, he doesn't ever make any alterations to
them, so he often wants to take some pretty way-out allies - like Empire
and Bretonnian allies for his Orc & Goblin army, for example.
Mike H.
they tell him to do on the net. That and I was kinda surprised that the
tactics they listed on the net could work so well. I got like 4 VP, maybe
5. That's it.
ChrisMan wrote in message <91636846...@wagasa.cts.com>...
Mike H.
>> this kids really quite nice, but he's an only child living in a huge
>> house so he's a little spoiled, and incredibly stubborn.
>
>I live in a huge house and I'm incredibly spoiled, but I don't take
>invisible models :)
well, you're the exception of course :-) He already has 2000 points, it
just pisses me off that I never know what he'll field.
whoa, that's not allowed though is it? Matt gets almost everything from
tactics articles and the Warhammer mailing list. Kid spends hours on the
net reading Empire tactics articles. Kinda weird isn't it. Then again, I'm
spending way too much time on this newsgroup.
taliesynkp
play someone who uses buttons and dust bunnies instead of minatures and it
really bothers you don't play him again. On the other hand you could glue
toothpicks to peanuts and field them against him and then...oh-oh think I've
had too much coffee today...(mumble, mumble)
Kevin Kelly
<snip>
> The kid, (Matt) is a nut for tactics. He did a really clever move. He
> put 30 greatswords with crown of command with detachments and reiksguard to
> the right of the unit, flagellants to the left. He took book of ashur and
> used a skaven spell to make my KORs flee, so when my grail knights charged
> they lost their reinforcements. Next turn, flagellants and reiksguard
> smushed my grail knights unit with the general. battle went downhill from
> there. Kind of a cheesy tactic, but it worked very well. Later when I was
> surfing the net, I found the site Necromantic Archives and found a tactics
> article that described EXACTLY what he did. exactly. grrr.
How is this cheesy? I think it's a good solid move. Actually a very
non-cheesy use of magic. There is also a color magic (I don't remember
which color) that causes a unit to flee - this would be more in
character with the Empire but I suppose he just wanted to use skaven
magic (thats what the BoA is for).
I do agree with you though on fielding units you don't have, and
fielding units of bases. It is ok if the person is just starting and
just hasn't gotten them yet, or wanted to see how they did before
sinking money into them. This game is really only fun because of the
look of the cool models with cool terrain. I also wouldn't get much
pleasure out of killing bases, but I have been guilty of fielding bases
for figures. It happened when I only had about 1500 pnts worth of
Orcs/Gobblins and my oppenent wanted to play 2000 pnts. So I
understand. BUT, if you have models that you aren't using and instead
field different ones just to get an advantage, it takes away much of the
fun.
Kevin
Matthew Plonski
40k2 Chaos Daemon Princes (Doombreed and Ma'ra'chen (sp?)), a unit of Skink
Cold One Riders, and 40k Beastmen with bolt pistols & hand flamers. Also, I
spend WAY too much money on this stuff, so inevitably have miniatures that
no one expects me to have.
I guess that's why I don't like playing against proxies. If I went through
the effort of converting every miniature in my army to absolute WYSIWYG, it
fries me that you're going to substitute empty bases for your army. I at
least think that the front rank should be exactly what you really have.
There have been many times that I looked across the table and thought, "I
don't have anything to worry about on that flank. They're just skaven
slaves." to find out that they're really Stormvermin with a standard,
musician, champion, battle standard, and a hero in the front rank.
I had a Vyper for two years before GW actually put one out. (The mail order
conversion kit) Nothing like a person's face at a tournament when you pull
out a 100% codex-legal miniature that doesn't exist. It sure drew a lot of
fire, though.
M
Mike H.
little cheesy. I mean, c'mon, the whole thrust of the Bretonnian army is to
charge, break the enemy, cause massive panic tests and have everyone flee.
With unmodified ld10, well, it makes it just a wee bit hard for us
Bretonnians.
Kevin Kelly wrote in message <369F3722...@activecom.net>...
>Mike H. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The kid, (Matt) is a nut for tactics. He did a really clever move.
He
>> put 30 greatswords with crown of command with detachments and reiksguard
to
>> the right of the unit, flagellants to the left. He took book of ashur
and
>> used a skaven spell to make my KORs flee, so when my grail knights
charged
>> they lost their reinforcements. Next turn, flagellants and reiksguard
>> smushed my grail knights unit with the general. battle went downhill
from
>> there. Kind of a cheesy tactic, but it worked very well. Later when I
was
>> surfing the net, I found the site Necromantic Archives and found a
tactics
>> article that described EXACTLY what he did. exactly. grrr.
>
Mike H.
taliesynkp wrote in message
<19990115054017...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
Tiamat6
know, you beat him, and he just fades away. you lose all memory of him, he
never existed... God, I hate that.
-Tiamat ''had to'' 6
Remove .is.God from my adress to reply via Email, unless of course you actually
think I'm God, in which case I am flattered.
larry king
looked pretty cool to me.
DireWolf
Shit, can't think of anything coherent...
Alien164
In article <369FBF07...@VirtualHomes.Net>, larry king
<Ki...@VirtualHomes.Net> writes:
>Try using the nifty "Veto System" they have in WD's battle reports. That
>looked pretty cool to me.
Veto system? Which WD was this in???
>DireWolf
>Shit, can't think of anything coherent...
Alie...@aol.com
-insert catchy phrase here-
To reply, cut what you would like to cut.
ICQ: 21898614
___________________________________________________________
Alien164's Warhammer 40,000 Universe!
Battle reports, stories, Necromunda, and more!
Shim
[snip]
You're posting here and you haven't commented on my RFC mailing(s) yet?
Shame on you!
--
-Shim, honoured Alien in those 1600 words.
RTC Political Officer, affiliate of the SPoKOS, SEC and RFC, CUT supporter.
If you must... replace 'cheapskate' with 'freeserve' to contact me.
Alien164
In article <77ongl$utb$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Shim"
<sh...@shimgray.cheapskate.co.uk> writes:
>Alien164 wrote in message <19990115193638...@ngol06.aol.com>...
>
>
>[snip]
>
>
>You're posting here and you haven't commented on my RFC mailing(s) yet?
>Shame on you!
Check your mail. It's coming.
>--
>-Shim, honoured Alien in those 1600 words.
Alie...@aol.com
-thankful for those 1600 words. Really, really, really thankful-
larry king
have one on me(lousy gaming group, all a bunch of moochers...), but I
think it is in the one with the Blood angels on the front(224???).
Anyway, what happens is this: In WHFB, if you are playing with standard
vp's, you can pay a victory point at the beginning of the game to force
your opponent to get rid of one of his magic items(your choice). It gets
rid of magic item cheese. But you don't play WHFB, do you?
DireWolf
Started to, ran outta cash. Wanna buy 800 points of High Elves?
Alien164 wrote:
>
> In article <369FBF07...@VirtualHomes.Net>, larry king
> <Ki...@VirtualHomes.Net> writes:
>
> >Try using the nifty "Veto System" they have in WD's battle reports. That
> >looked pretty cool to me.
>
> Veto system? Which WD was this in???
>
> >DireWolf
> >Shit, can't think of anything coherent...
>
> Alie...@aol.com
> -insert catchy phrase here-
evanem...@rocketmail.com
> this kid has had his army since August. I just find the crown of command a
> little cheesy. I mean, c'mon, the whole thrust of the Bretonnian army is to
> charge, break the enemy, cause massive panic tests and have everyone flee.
> With unmodified ld10, well, it makes it just a wee bit hard for us
> Bretonnians.
While I think the kid's attitude probably isn't the greatest (I am in the
hobby mostly for the models, and playing with proxies should only a stop-gap
measure if you want to try out a troop-type), I don't think calling the crown
or his tactics cheesy is the solution. Something that makes it hard for you
to win is cheesy? Is he supposed to roll over and be trampled by your
knights? I find it to be a good tactic (although a little predictable) to
give the crown to a large combat unit (I would play that the detactments
don't get an unmodified LD10, though, just a modified 10). As for you, you
can combat it in several ways. You could give your large units of knights
the dread banner, and have a good chance of automatically breaking them after
a round or so of combat. Or just do the simplest (and most overlooked) thing
-- kill the character with the crown.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Alison Grant
>
> unfortunately, this kid's 15. Oh and some breaking news, guess what, he's
> going to use his monster base to represent (go figure) an emperor dragon.
> originally joined the game because I loved painting the figures and he
> joined just for the game and the tactics. If he had his way he wouldn't
> paint any of his figures. so far I got him to paint his great cannon.
> looks rather awful too. oh well.
>
I think playing with models you don't actually have is a bit naff
(especially since it sounds like this kid could probably afford to get
them). I frequently play with models which are unpainted since I'd
rather use the little time I have free playing than painting. Possible
exceptions would be things like Emperor Dragons and other bigger models
which are harder to get and you may not use so often. If I fancy playing
a Pegasus just to see what it's like, I'd rather represent it with
something else before spending £15 on the actual model.
Out of curiosity, what size battles are you playing? It'll have to be at
least 2000 points for him to get an Emperor Dragon and even then he'd
have to have it as a mount for a character...
As far as dragons go, I'm just lucky since my fiance got me an Emperor
Dragon painted by one of the GW studio guys for my birthday :o) -
unfortunatey it's painted so well I'm scared to play it. :o(
Alison Grant
(Empire, just starting Bretonnian)
David Lavictoire
> I always hate playing against unpainted figures... <sad story snipped>
I'm amazed that anyone would tolerate this, let alone let someone play with 'the
emporer's new figures'. To each his own, I suppose.
But anyway, here's a couple of suggestions to get your gaming group painting:
1. Ridicule and scorn. When we first started our historical gaming club, one of
my friends made the mistake of fielding his Jacobite Rebellion army white-primed
and based on cardboard with blu-tack (the stuff you use to stick posters up). We
made fun of him. A lot. Now, three years later, he's got the largest collection
in the club and one of the nicest painting styles to boot! Never underestimate
the power of public shame.
2. Peer Pressure. Back in 'The Day', when 40K meant 30-figure boxes of plastic
Space Marines and LEGO (tm) terrain, my buds all agreed on a couple of rules: 1.
WYSIWYG, and 2. you could only use figures painted to a reasonable standard. Our
rule of thumb: you had to paint the eyes on the figure. One guy showed up with
red spray-painted Space Marines with little white dots for eyes, as a protest,
but everyone eventually got into it. The 'arms race' turned into who could paint
their new toy fastest, and the art of the game became more important than the
game itself. And you know what? Some of us turned out to be durned good
painters!
3. Encouragement. Kinda the flip-side to peer pressure. Instead of getting
together just to game all the time, we started to have Painting Parties, which
is like a normal party except geekier, and no girls. The more talented guys
would help out the less talented, we'd share paint pots ("anybody got any Brazen
Bronze?") and generally eat munchies and kibbitz. It's a great way to get stuff
done quickly, since our sessions would often last well into the night. And the
newbies got better quickly, with positive reinforcement and the odd helpful
suggestion.
....So if invisible or unpainted armies torques you off, don't just hold your
breath until you turn blue, DO something about it. There are steps you can take.
But you've got to be willing to put the art before the competition.
Other Dave
Joe Schulte
: this kid has had his army since August. I just find the crown of command a
: little cheesy. I mean, c'mon, the whole thrust of the Bretonnian army is to
: charge, break the enemy, cause massive panic tests and have everyone flee.
: With unmodified ld10, well, it makes it just a wee bit hard for us
: Bretonnians.
That's what happens when you have game in which certain magic items are,
essentially, must-haves.
Either due to their cost (too low), their effect (too great), or a
combination of both.
-Mer "Crown of Black Gem Command" idian
Kevin Kelly
>
> this kid has had his army since August. I just find the crown of command a
> little cheesy. I mean, c'mon, the whole thrust of the Bretonnian army is to
> charge, break the enemy, cause massive panic tests and have everyone flee.
> With unmodified ld10, well, it makes it just a wee bit hard for us
> Bretonnians.
You mean you have to...<gasp>...change your tactics? There are plenty
of ways to play Bretonians other than "my huge cheesed out wedge of
knights charges". He can only have one crown of command. Granted with
Empire that means that he gets up to three units that can use its
benefits (drives my Orcs crazy too), but that is it. They are just
humans and if he uses it this way then they are just infantry so not
very fast. Use your foot troops to tie up his units with CoC and wear
them down a bit (or some cheaper knights), and kill the rest of the army
with your knights. Or hold back and shoot him with archers until he is
nice and soft *then* charge with knights. People always seem to forget
that the Bretonians have anything other than knights.
A friend of mine and I figured out how to make an entire army almost
immune to breaking (he playes Empire). So be thankful that your friend
only used CoC and Flagelents. (he could also use the war alter and make
units near it unbreakable).
Kevin
Avatar
: I'm amazed that anyone would tolerate this, let alone let someone play with 'the
: emporer's new figures'. To each his own, I suppose.
I expect minis to be WYSIWYG (represent appropriate heavy weapons and the
like) but I ultimately don't care if an opponent hasn't put a drop of
paint on his minis. I enjoy painting minis, butthat doesn't mean I have
to force everyone else to enjoy painting minis too. Or even force them to
paint them just to fulfill my own interests...
: But anyway, here's a couple of suggestions to get your gaming group painting:
Reread that as some suggestions to turn some players totally away
from miniatures wargaming because they will think everyone is an annoying
wanker...
: 1. Ridicule and scorn. When we first started our historical gaming club, one of
: my friends made the mistake of fielding his Jacobite Rebellion army white-primed
: and based on cardboard with blu-tack (the stuff you use to stick posters up). We
: made fun of him. A lot. Now, three years later, he's got the largest collection
: in the club and one of the nicest painting styles to boot! Never underestimate
: the power of public shame.
You are right to never underestimate that power, but you are missing the
other side of the coin. If I had a dollar for every person who I met who
said they started to get into some type of tabletop miniatures gaming, but
ended up dumping the few thnings they bought and doing something else
because everyone kept bitching at them because they didn't paint
everything before they tried to enjoy the game, I'd be a wealthy
man...Damn that was a runon sentence....;)
The problem is that while *encouragement* to paint usually results in
people working to paint and tat least trying to paint. meanwhile abuse
about painting makes people either abaondon the hoby all together or find
like minded players who really don't care. I personally enjoy painting
and I consider the gaming and the painting to be two totally different
hobbies. I don't let one or the other dictate my enjoyment of the other.
I've got tons of painted minis, but also have plenty of primiered only
minis. I will use them interchangably on the table, because when I am
playing I want to *play* and don't let my painting dictate how I can play.
on the other side of the coin regardless of the state of any given army i
will paint what I want to paint when i sit down at the painting desk.
Forcing myself to paint models strictly because I need another fully
painted unit of X before the game on Saturday causes me to get annoyed
with the painting project at hand and it doesn't get done anyway...
: 2. Peer Pressure. Back in 'The Day', when 40K meant 30-figure boxes of plastic
: Space Marines and LEGO (tm) terrain, my buds all agreed on a couple of rules: 1.
: WYSIWYG, and 2. you could only use figures painted to a reasonable standard. Our
: rule of thumb: you had to paint the eyes on the figure. One guy showed up with
: red spray-painted Space Marines with little white dots for eyes, as a protest,
: but everyone eventually got into it. The 'arms race' turned into who could paint
: their new toy fastest, and the art of the game became more important than the
: game itself. And you know what? Some of us turned out to be durned good
: painters!
Good for you. We draw the line at being able to identify the model and
its armaments on the table. As for paint jobs we don't care. We are all
very good painters (in my group anyway), but don't let the frivialoties of
painting get in the way of a good game. We have no painting standards or
requirements. Just come to the game ready to have fun with your army. We
also occaisionally allow proxies in games for units that we want to test
before minis are bought. This is all done with opponent approval and
since we are all friends no one cares, though proxies *are* limited to a
single unit to avoid confusion on the tabletop...I've met plenty of people
who have *tried* to paint their minis and they do it poorly. Since they
aren't coming close to others, even after months of practice and effort,
they, not surprisingly, get frsutrated and stop painting. I can
understand that because I personally will not do something that I don't
like doing of this nature to appease other people..
: 3. Encouragement. Kinda the flip-side to peer pressure. Instead of getting
: together just to game all the time, we started to have Painting Parties, which
: is like a normal party except geekier, and no girls. The more talented guys
: would help out the less talented, we'd share paint pots ("anybody got any Brazen
: Bronze?") and generally eat munchies and kibbitz. It's a great way to get stuff
: done quickly, since our sessions would often last well into the night. And the
: newbies got better quickly, with positive reinforcement and the odd helpful
: suggestion.
I *hate* painting in groups. I really dislike having people around
telling me how to paint my minis. I am also horribly anal about the
condition of my paint jars and brushes and won't let other people use
them....:)
: ....So if invisible or unpainted armies torques you off, don't just hold your
: breath until you turn blue, DO something about it. There are steps you can take.
: But you've got to be willing to put the art before the competition.
:
Yep these things have worked for *you*, but they certainly won't work for
everyone....Personally if I was involved ina group that seems as anal as
yours is I would quickly find somewhere else to play. I like to game to
have fun. I don't game to be stressed or to have other people force me to
do things in ways I might not choose to do them....
for me, on the tabeltop, it ultimately comes down to whether or not the
opponent was challanging to play. If he was I don't care if his models
have eyes, or if his modles are only primed or not even primed...
Avatar
David Lavictoire
> David Lavictoire (dlav...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : I'm amazed that anyone would tolerate this, let alone let someone play with 'the
> : emporer's new figures'. To each his own, I suppose.
>
> I expect minis to be WYSIWYG (represent appropriate heavy weapons and the
> like) but I ultimately don't care if an opponent hasn't put a drop of
> paint on his minis.
Well, we all draw the line somewhere, don't we?
> I enjoy painting minis, butthat doesn't mean I have
> to force everyone else to enjoy painting minis too. Or even force them to
> paint them just to fulfill my own interests...
You like to play against opponents who don't paint their figures. Neither Mike H. (the
original poster) nor I do. To each his own.
> : But anyway, here's a couple of suggestions to get your gaming group painting:
>
> Reread that as some suggestions to turn some players totally away
> from miniatures wargaming because they will think everyone is an annoying
> wanker...
My goal in playing these games is not to 'convert' anyone to miniature wargaming. If
someone doesn't want to go the whole package (collecting, painting, AND playing) then
they can go do their thing with someone else (ie, you). I've got enough folks who
agree with me to get a good game in.
> : 1. Ridicule and scorn... Never underestimate
> : the power of public shame.
>
> You are right to never underestimate that power, but you are missing the
> other side of the coin. If I had a dollar for every person who I met who
> said they started to get into some type of tabletop miniatures gaming, but
> ended up dumping the few thnings they bought and doing something else
> because everyone kept bitching at them because they didn't paint
> everything before they tried to enjoy the game, I'd be a wealthy
> man...Damn that was a runon sentence....;)
Not to sound callous, but who cares if a newcomer starts playing and then bails?
Miniatures wargaming is about as niche as you can get. Most newcomers will buy a few
figures and then quit it for another hobby more to their taste. Face it, miniature
wargaming just doesn't appeal to the average temperment. There will never be a flood
of people coming into the hobby, and I'm not even sure that's desirable. Like I say,
there are already enough folks out there who share my point of view.
> I personally enjoy painting
> and I consider the gaming and the painting to be two totally different
> hobbies. I don't let one or the other dictate my enjoyment of the other.
> I've got tons of painted minis, but also have plenty of primiered only
> minis. I will use them interchangably on the table, because when I am
> playing I want to *play* and don't let my painting dictate how I can play.
But you will let your pocketbook do the talking, right (Remember WYSIWYG)? In the end,
everyone has the right to set their own standard. If someone wants to field unpainted
figs occasionally as a temporary expedient, that's fine. But I don't have to tolerate
invisible men on bases to save the feelings of a hypothetical gamer, and neither does
Mike H.
> I've met plenty of people
> who have *tried* to paint their minis and they do it poorly. Since they
> aren't coming close to others, even after months of practice and effort,
> they, not surprisingly, get frsutrated and stop painting. I can
> understand that because I personally will not do something that I don't
> like doing of this nature to appease other people..
I don't care if folks paint poorly, as long as they at least try it. First of all,
it's not hard to paint to an acceptable (read "wargaming") standard. Of course, we
can't all be White Dwarf contributors, but the effort counts. Furthermore, I have yet
to meet someone who's painting skill hasn't improved over time to at least a passable
level. And everyone I know takes pride in their achievements, regardless of their
actual skill level. Nor would anyone I know berate someone for a poor result.
> : 3. Encouragement. Kinda the flip-side to peer pressure. Instead of getting
> : together just to game all the time, we started to have Painting Parties, which
> : is like a normal party except geekier, and no girls. The more talented guys
> : would help out the less talented, we'd share paint pots ("anybody got any Brazen
> : Bronze?") and generally eat munchies and kibbitz. It's a great way to get stuff
> : done quickly, since our sessions would often last well into the night. And the
> : newbies got better quickly, with positive reinforcement and the odd helpful
> : suggestion.
>
> I *hate* painting in groups. I really dislike having people around
> telling me how to paint my minis. I am also horribly anal about the
> condition of my paint jars and brushes and won't let other people use
> them....:)
I guess you can't come over to play, then. We anal wankers love to chat it up when we
paint. Especially when we're painting historicals, as it can save a lot of time if
someone else remembers the facing colours for the 3e Hussards, for example. And with
us, painting advice is given only if asked for. Positive reinforcement is freely
given, however.
> Yep these things have worked for *you*, but they certainly won't work for
> everyone....
But maybe they'll work for Mike H., who has expressed dismay at having to play against
unpainted figures and proxies. Haven't you lost sight of the issue at hand?
> Personally if I was involved ina group that seems as anal as
> yours is I would quickly find somewhere else to play. I like to game to have fun. I
> don't game to be stressed or to have other people force me to do things in ways I
> might not choose to do them....
I don't blame you. Here at the House of Pain, if'n ya don't paint yer figs well, ya
get a smack on the hand. And once you're in, you can never leave. Muahahaha.
> for me, on the tabeltop, it ultimately comes down to whether or not the
> opponent was challanging to play. If he was I don't care if his models
> have eyes, or if his modles are only primed or not even primed...
Well, to each his own. There are much more intellectually satisfying ways to find
"challenging play" in a wargame than the broken and tactically simple rules produced
by GW. For me, it ultimately comes down to whether we've all had a fun, aesthetic
experience. For many gamers, including myself, that experience necessarily includes
painted miniatures and reasonable terrain. We find our "challenging play" in other
venues, or not at all.
Thanks for your constructive contribution.
Other Dave
GREEBO
has to start somewhere. And after playing plastic grey blobs running
through empty tin pots, you don't even notice after a while you get so
involved.
--
GREEBO
NZ
David Jones
about how GW cheats everyone out of there money. I don't mind proxies when
people first start. If you do why not let new comers play with your a unit or
two of your painted minis to see if they actully like the game enough to snd
money on it. This is what has commonly hoappened in the groups I play with and
has caused a number of new players. I sure that your first game involed
painted..... that is you painted all the mini's in the box and add some others
for a legal army and then while the paint was drying you read the rules....I
don't think so. Sorry I guess I'm having a bad day. I do agree that two armies
facing each other across a table top fully painted is really cool and much
easier to get into it.
Mike H. wrote:
> I always hate playing against unpainted figures. You never get the same
> pleasure out of killing a block of plastic or peuter that you get from
> killing a beautifully painted Dragon prince, or Bretonnian Grail Knight.
> Most of my friends play with unpainted figures, except for two who have most
> of their armies painted. One of my friends just started an Undead army and
> wanted to play a game. I said yes, and ended up playing a bunch of black
> bases. I ended up beating him really badly, I took 21 grail knights (in one
> unit) and 30 archers. 'Twas quite cruel really, it was his first game after
> all. Whoops, going off topic again, okay, back to the point. I was
> knocking off skeletons like crazy, they were flying left and right. But I
> got absolutely nothing out of removing a bunch of plastic bases. I felt
> like I had killed a bunch of air.
>
> I always play only with the troops that I actually possess. But lately my
> friends have taken to playing with troops they don't have and using other
> troops in their place. In a game I played against Empire, I knew the kid
> had 20 flagellants, 20 halberdiers, 10 Reiksguard knights, Supreme
> Patriarch, 3 great cannons and 2 hellblasters. I knew he had all of those.
> I ended up playing against a unit of 30 greatswords with crown of command,
Christian H. Eide
It aint fun to kill 16 unpainted skinks with an unpainted forest dragon.
But to se 16 skinks gasping for air in some corrosive green fumes breathed
out by an gloriously painted Forest dragon with a noble Wood Elf lord on
it...
To all guys that dont paint ur minis: Donth ya fink its fun 2 paint?
And what whit ur fellow players. Do ya fink its boring to look at unpainted
minis??
Bring in tha WayWatchers, ready, aim, fire....
Ughhhhhh. Wattah mezz...
--
WARPS2NE...
David Jones <bel...@bellsouth.net> skrev i artikkelen
<36A63261...@bellsouth.net>...