[BT][long] Questions on Clan Reactions
Michael Miller
warfare tactics, but the examples ballooned into some semi-
fanfic. I have 2 questions at the bottom that could stand
some input, mostly about Clan psychology.
So, maybe you've run all sorts of anti-Clan campaigns.
Fought them with your mercs, fought them with your house
regulars, imagined crushing the one dimensional bad guys
who blather about honor and have weapons only munchkins had
when Battletech was first printed.
Maybe you've run more daring Mechwarrior campaigns,
guerilla warfare where your brave and hearty band of player
characters exist as a thorn in the Clans' side on one
planet. Did you try sniping? The vulnerability of
Battletech's mechanized forces to longer-ranged personal
weapons (blazer anyone?) is intriguing to me. If I could
get one of my friends to run a MW campaign with anti-Clan
guerilla warfare, I'd play a sniper. Clanner steps out of
the cockpit for piss? Zap. Clanner walks through a city
street to lord over the locals and buy fresh food? (You
know Clan military rations suck like everyone else's.) Zap.
Clanners just getting off the dropship at a captured
spaceport? Zap zap zap.
Yeah, that's fun, but there's more to guerilla warfare than
sniping. Poison, mines, prostitutes with strategically
mounted razor blades, ground glass in free baked goods,
sugar in omnimech gas tanks, cherry bombs in Clan barracks
plumbing, and the ever popular burning bag of dog dookie on
the Galaxy Commander's front porch. Ya gotta stay inventive
in guerilla warfare or The Man will crush you.
And psychological warfare, too. The Clans are so vulnerable
to it, or would seem to be. Their philosophies and way of
life are riddled with hypocrisy, a subject I've ranted on
at length in months past. (Don't get me wrong: the Inner
Sphere has at least as many flaws. I just dislike the Clans
more.) If you become too victorious in your guerilla
warfare, they even level cities with warships. I'd REALLY
like to be there when the Clanners hear the guerillas
compare them to Stephen Amaris for flattening cities. No, I
think I'd like to see their faces from afar, like on TV. In
a bunker. Under a mountain.
But that's all so...so...serious. The killing and the
mayhem and the anatomical abstract art and the brutal
psychological warfare...what are the children to think?
So, I had an epiphany. A guerilla war is no excuse to slack
off on your children's moral education. Between butchering
and suicide bombers and cutting off cable to Clan barracks,
you need to leaven your guerilla warfare with a dash of
light-hearted humor.
For example, look at a well-populated planet overrun by the
Clans. A planet of a few billion people ruled by about 100
second-line Clan troops (do you know many Clans that can
spare much more than 1% of their warriors to garrison one
planet?), give or take a few hundred warriors. The
politicians are nominally kowtowing to these invaders while
snipers and patriotic citizens (i.e. suicide bombers)
whittle their numbers down daily. The local intelligence
agencies (or police) have decided to use their superior
numbers to closely monitor the movement of EVERY Clanner on
planet - an effort that only takes a small fraction of
their workforce. Bugs get slipped into every building the
invaders occupy, and even into the invaders. The Clans
don't do the intelligence thing well (Their opening line
for an invasion seems to be, "Hey, I'm attacking you with a
cluster. What've you got to oppose me?" and they actually
expect a truthful answer. Dumbasses.) so why would they
look for bugs? I’m sure they’ve caught on to such things by
3060, but my question is set a little earlier in the
invasion.
No doubt a wealth of intelligence information can be
acquired from a diligent intelligence agency that ignores
the groveling of the local planetary leadership to the
invaders (who don't have the manpower to point guns at more
heads than that of the planetary leadership anyway). A few
bugs in the mech bays, a few bugs around dropship launch
pads, a few bugs in command centers, and a few bugs in the
barracks....
Yeah, in the barracks. If the Clans have any respectable
qualities, it's their freeform approach to relations
between the sexes and sexual relations. I have to admire
them for that. And if I had some video of it, I think I'd
admire them repeatedly, every night, until they took my VCR
remote from my cold, dead hand.
And that thought leads me back to light-hearted guerilla
warfare, particularly psychological warfare. I know how the
Clans treat sex - that's pretty well documented in the
various sourcebooks and field manuals and ways of the
clans, etc. But, for the interest of hacktivists and
guerilla soldiers and pornographers everywhere, just what
are the attitudes of Clan warriors on sex and privacy? For
example...
A STUDY OF CLAN SOCIAL LIFE
[Announcer] “This evening’s Planetary News Network report
on the social life of the vile Clan invaders is brought to
you by Bellatrix Plumbing and Gourmet Foods. Bellatrix,
maker of the popular Bellatrix Air Bidet. The Bellatrix Air
Bidet: blows the shit right off your ass! No muss, no fuss,
no clogged plumbing from archaic toilet paper! Contact your
local plumber to have a Bellatrix Air Bidet installed
today!”
[Focus on Maria Youngman, the auburn-haired beauty who made
her way up the PNN hierarchy from weather girl to
anchorwoman in an astonishingly short time. She sits beside
a nondescript man in a pinstriped business suit at the
anchor desk. Computer graphics generate the title of the
report (CLAN SOCIAL LIFE) in the air behind them.]
[Youngman] “Tonight’s guest is Dr. Roger Bird. Doctor Bird
is an accredited sociologist from Capital University
currently working on a government contract. He’s studying
the unusual culture of the few hundred barbarian invaders
that claim to rule our fair planet of 1.2 billion souls.
Dr. Bird, I understand the Planetary Intelligence Agency
has decided to publicly release a lot of video records from
electronic ‘bugs’ placed in the invaders’ barracks. This is
creating quite a stir. Would you tell us why PIA made this
decision? It seems like it would be a big security risk.”
[Watching the news report, viewers would be impressed with
Youngman’s level voice and neutral, inquiring expression.
Clearly she was meeting the ideal of the impartial
reporter. A review of the transcript actually shows she was
loading her dialogue against the Clans and is emphasizing
the government’s (in exile) party line about the invaders:
“there’s only a few hundred of them, and billions of us.”
But go figure. Reporters get patriotic urges, too.]
[Dr. Bird] “Not at all, Ms. Youngman. The decision to
release the video records actually occurred after a
security problem. Through an unlikely series of events I
won’t go into – dumb luck on the Clanners’ part, really -
the Clanners stumbled onto our listening devices and purged
*all* of them.” (He winks heavily at Maria when he says
“all of them.”)
[Youngman] “Why are you wink- OH-H-H. I see. They got *all*
of them.”
[Dr. Bird] “Yes, it was a tragic loss of intelligence
gathering ability, but one the PIA has decided to make the
most of. As you may know, the invaders like to shoot
mayors, senators, and other heads of the government with
the idea that they’re ‘decapitating’ the government when
some patriotic citizens get organized and grease a few of
the bastards. By bastards I do mean the invaders not our
elected and honorable leadership, of course. On the other
hand, as any taxpayer can tell you, it isn’t enough to just
kill a few puppets on the throne if you want to be rid of a
government. But while the invaders’ efforts are futile in
the long run, they sometimes foul up the government’s
budget for days and weeks at a time. Particularly when they
extract retribution by flattening city hall and its
associated accounting records. Under the conditions, the
PIA’s board of directors decided to establish some more
reliable, independent sources of income. Apparently some of
the video records were deemed to be very marketable and are
now available on PIA’s netsite. Several major infonet
servers have set up mirror netsites. That’s a pretty neat
means of gathering funding, if I do say so. With so few
Clanners, they’ll never be able to shut down the
distributed computer networks of the major infonet
servers.”
[Youngman] “Is this fundraising anything like the PIA’s
sales of heroine to inner city poor demographic groups in
the 3030s? I was under the impression PIA was banned from
independent fundraising after that.”
[Dr. Bird] “Eh...Ms. Youngman, I’m just a contracted
researcher from a university and certainly not privy to the
discussions of the PIA’s board of directors. However, I’d
wager that invasion constitutes extenuating circumstances.
This time the PIA’s board of directors aren’t lining their
own pockets and building personal armies. They *have* hired
a few dozen additional agents to help keep track of all of
the invaders and the PIA’s entire staff is working a lot of
overtime. PIA’s expenditures are at an all-time high just
when the government’s accounting system is becoming
unstable. By marketing these video records – at very
affordable rates I might add -PIA is considerably defraying
its operating costs and insulating itself from further
wartime disruptions of the government’s accounting
network.”
[Youngman] “I suppose that’s understandable, then. But
there are still strong signs that PIA is once again
marketing vice to the public. As I understand, these ‘get
to know your enemy’ records are basically porn. In fact, a
highly placed source inside PIA has hinted to PNN that
Uncle Binky, this planet’s richest and most notorious porn
king, was contracted to aid in the distribution of these
videos.”
[Dr. Bird] “Oh, I can confirm Uncle Binky’s involvement. He
was chosen because he had at least the same production
talents as the major media firms and was willing to work
for less. As I understand, he just wanted the original,
unabridged copies of the video records. He’s something of a
collector, apparently, and really enjoys his work. He said
that it was his patriotic duty as a citizen to help the
government repel these invaders and wouldn’t take a dime
from taxpayers to give his assistance.”
[Youngman] “His efforts are strictly voluntary? It had
nothing to do with Uncle Binky’s pardon for 87 counts of
tax fraud that was granted by the Acting Planetary
President yesterday?”
[Dr. Bird] “Actually, I would suspect his efforts have a
lot to do with the pardon. Not that it matters. Not only
will the government make more in video sales than it would
from the Uncle Binky’s overdue taxes and fines, but the
price of the pardon and cancellation of his tax debt cost
the government less than contracting a major media firm for
this video distribution.”
[Youngman] “Oh.” [pause] “But you still didn’t address the
issue that PIA seems to be once again distributing vice.
For example, look at the record we are supposed to review
tonight. Do you seriously consider this record to be a
study of Clan culture?”
[Maria points without looking at a video square that
appears in the air behind them. It swells past them to
cover the entire screen. From an odd camera angle – clearly
that of a cleverly hidden electronic bug – two Clanners are
involved in highly energetic sex. The beautiful Clan female
appears to be of Asian descent while her hulking male
partner is apparently Caucasian.]
[Dr. Bird, in a voice overlay] “Well, if you’re intent on
jumping right into the middle of the film, yes, it would
appear to be a porn video. But that’s taking this
particular scene out of context. If you started this record
from the beginning, you find it is neatly and succinctly
edited to give patriotic citizens great insight into Clan
behavior and culture.”
[Rather than just jump to the beginning of the solid-state
holographic storage chip, the record is reversed. Like many
porn videos watched in fast reverse, the results are rather
amusing.]
[Youngman, continuing off-screen narration] “Alright, we’ve
started at the beginning. I would like the viewers to note
prior to their purchase of this ‘record’-“
[Dr. Bird, interrupting] “It’s called ‘Clan Anger
Management and Stress Relief Study VII’ on the PIA netsite,
available to download for just one C-bill. Adults only,
please.”
[Youngman, sounding irritated at the interruption] “-this
record was timed by staffers in our studio to have 1 minute
and 27 seconds of that brute-“
[Dr. Bird] “Clan Warrior Bruce, of the genetically altered
warrior type known as an ‘Elemental’ to the invaders.”
[Youngman] “Uh, yes. The record has about a minute and a
half of Bruce walking into this bedroom, apparently this
anorexic bunny’s room-“
[Dr. Bird] “Star Warrior Anna, a mechwarrior. Personally,
she looks quite well fed to me, but all that exercise Clan
warriors indulge in does make her look a bit lean. For your
consideration, please know that Anna is actually a bit over
180 centimeters tall and a firm, athletic seventy
kilograms. She just seems small and anorexic because Bruce
is 220 centimeters tall – short for an ‘Elemental’ I might
add – and 175 kilograms.”
[The video retreats to a small portion of the screen behind
the two reviewers.]
[Youngman, blinking] “How do you know all that?”
[Dr. Bird] “Well, those *are* former planetary defense
barracks they’re in, so we know the height of the ceiling
in that particular room. We had good mass estimates based
on height and build, but a young, computer-adept patriot
got into the invader’s medical records and forwarded the
data to PIA. That information is, incidentally, available
free of charge on the PIA netsite (and quite a few others,
I’m told) so you can learn more about the personal,
intimate details of the invader you personally hate the
most. I’m sure the curious viewer would like to know that
the Clans apparently keep detailed video records of all
sorts of medical exams, which are included in each medical
record.”
[Youngman] “As I was saying, there’s just a minute and a
half of ‘Bruce’ talking to ‘Anna’ at the beginning about
how he fails to understand us ‘spheroids’ followed by Anna
‘comforting and consoling’ him. Physically. Five times. And
the dialogue is atrocious. Are you still going to maintain
this is something other than pornography?”
[Dr. Bird] “I’m curious. Did I hear correctly that PNN
staffers had to review this record five times to get an
average value for the amount of dialogue in it?”
[Youngman] “Uh...I wouldn’t know anything about that...”
[Dr. Bird] “Yes, I think I heard five times. My sociology
team reviewed it three times for just that reason, but we
had a lot of other records to review before we could
deliver our report. As for the dialogue being bad, I don’t
think ‘dialogue’ is the correct term. This is not a
scripted porn video, it’s a video record of actual Clan
life. It just happens to have a lot of sex.”
[Youngman] “’Just happens to have a lot of sex?’ This
record is two hours long and it only has eighty-seven
seconds of something other than sex. This is pure porn to
drum up money for the PIA!”
[Dr. Bird] “To be fair, there’s over five minutes of
interactive features at the beginning that describes the
two invaders in this record, especially the daily movements
and habits of Clan warriors that patriots should find
useful.”
[Youngman] “I stand corrected. That’s, um, six and half
minutes of non-sex.”
[Dr. Bird] “And even if this record meets the definition of
porn and the PIA’s selling it to ‘drum up money,’ so what?
The money is needed to defeat these invaders. Buying these
records is an easy way to support the fight without
endangering your family. Pornography is hardly illegal, and
the netsites require proof of age from buyers.”
[Both reviewers manage to keep a straight face when
‘netsite’ and ‘proof of age’ are spoken in the same
sentence.]
[Youngman] “You’re right, of course, and I would hardly
want to stand in the way of a patriotic fundraiser in the
middle of war. But, just to play the devil’s advocate, I
must ask, ‘Why not a war bond rally? Why these records
instead?’”
[Dr. Bird types on a hidden keyboard on the anchor desk in
front of him. The video display hops to a still image of
‘Anna’ shedding her clothes apparently at the beginning of
the record. The display zooms to fill the screen.]
[Dr. Bird] “This discussion arose in my sociology group and
I believe a colleague of mine correctly, if crudely, summed
up the matter: ‘War bonds ain’t got Anna’s tits ‘n ass.’”
[The video retreats to the background again, revealing a
nonplussed anchorwoman and an amused doctor of sociology.
Anna remains clearly, gloriously visible over their
shoulders.]
[Dr. Bird] “As a student of sociology, I had to agree. Sex
sells. And this record is expected to have good sales with
both genders because-“
[Youngman] “Oh, obviously. I can’t wait for my copy of Anna
the Clan Bimbo’s sexscapades.”
[Dr. Bird, smiling to himself] “I’m starting to think a
certain anchorwoman just skimmed the video if she watched
it at all. Let’s jump to about six minutes and fifteen
seconds into the record and see if your opinion on its
marketability holds.”
[The video swells to fill the screen. Still nodding to
Bruce’s sad story of confusion over spheroid ways and what
a bad day he had, Anna apparently decides to console him
physically and sheds her uniform. Bruce is fresh from the
barracks shower room and is only wearing an inadequate
robe. When that falls off, Dr. Bird pauses the record for
Maria’s benefit.]
[Youngman, voice overlay] “DEAR, GOD! He's not human!”
[Dr. Bird] “He is, Ms. Youngman, with a few tweaks to the
genes that regulate growth. There was speculation in my
study group that the invaders may use chimerical DNA
grafting to get these effects – that is, modifying DNA with
grafts from other species. In this case, human with horse
grafts were suspected. However, his extreme topographical
features seem to be proportional to his abnormal height, so
the chimerical gengineering theory was discarded in favor
of the idea that any apparently extreme features are just
normal physiological responses to the human body being
grown that large.”
[Youngman] “Holy shit.”
[Dr. Bird] “Uh...yes. Well. As I said, this record is
expected to have good sales with both genders of patriots.
At this moment the PIA, in association with Binky Films, is
running a promotional campaign that is putting up life-size
posters of both subjects around the planet. The posters, of
course, capture the subjects at their full-body best from
this record.”
[The video retreats behind the reviewers again.]
[Youngman] “So, Bruce and Anna are quite the item?”
[Dr. Bird] “Good news for you: no. What I was trying to get
around-”
[Youngman] “I didn’t mean to imply any interest in an
invader-“
[Dr. Bird] “Of course not. But what I have been trying to
get around to that. Clanners, at least Clan warriors, don’t
seem to be wired for sex and sexual relationships that way
normal people are. Anna and Bruce are ‘just friends,’ and
this record shows them just ‘blowing off steam’ and
offering the Clanner equivalent of ‘a shoulder to cry on.’
They don’t think of this as forming a love bond at all.
It’s the equivalent to a normal person going to the gym to
work off some frustration.”
[Again, a review of the transcript indicates Dr. Bird isn’t
being particularly unbiased toward the Clans, especially
with his use of the terms ‘normal person’ versus ‘Clanner.’
His demeanor was satisfactorily clinical for the audience,
who was probably impressed he could remain so detached over
an infuriating topic as the invaders.]
[Youngman, 90% humorously] “Do you think he still needs a
shoulder to cry on? I could volunteer and, um, no doubt
gather a lot of useful intelligence information now that
the Clanners swept the barracks of bugs.”
[Dr. Bird, chuckling politely] “I think that matter is
adequately covered, though you do touch humorously on a
subject of heated debate in my study group. There was
opposition to the release of the records for fear too many
patriotic women would waver in their loyalty if they could
see what the invaders ‘had to offer.’”
[Youngman] “Pardon?”
[Dr. Bird] “My female co-researchers weren’t as polite as
you about the implications against their loyalty, which is
why I said the debate was ‘heated.’ Anyway, this quickly
lead to political discussions my sociology group was not
authorized to handle. To wit, what to do about the ‘Penis
Gap’ between patriotic males and the Clan invaders.
However, my male co-researchers quickly concluded there
really was no such gap.”
[Youngman] “I’m not sure how to break this to you...”
[Dr. Bird] “Yes, yes. The women disagreed, but rather than
spread unfounded rumors about the size of patriotic males,
politely suggested the matter could be solved with ‘Open
Pants Policy.’ This was proposed under the theory that
truthful disclosures would avoid a cataclysmic collapse in
inter-sex relations during wartime. My male co-researchers
refused on purely ideological grounds, but then declared
the matter moot. After all, this is the 31st Century and
there are several ways to rapidly close any (purely
hypothetical) ‘Penis Gap.’ As far as I know, plastic
surgeons have not been conscripted to duty yet and offer
several relatively inexpensive surgical procedures that
could help. Further, there was mention of several temporary
and permanent prosthetics that could help with any purely
hypothetical ‘Gap.’ Also, the baseless rumors of this
‘Penis Gap’ are expected to inspire male patriots to
concentrate their efforts on the male invaders and, again,
make the matter moot by eliminating the competition.”
[Youngman] “Fascinating suggestions. Do go on.”
[Dr. Bird] “Thank you. Finally, an extensive review of
these records PIA is offering also shows a lack of
imagination on the part of both male and female invaders.
Foreplay is present, but resembles Greco-Roman wrestling
more than decent, hot lovin’. There only two positions that
follow this ‘foreplay’: her on top or him on top. I don’t
recall anything variations in the records available for
sale. This leads to the conclusion that patriotic males
unable to afford or unwilling to use previously suggestions
for closing the Gap could depend on their superior skill.
As the truism goes, ‘It’s not how big your worm is, but how
you wiggle it.’”
[Youngman, suppressing snickers] “Truism?” [composes
herself] “Well, the teleprompter is demanding I ask another
question for an interested percentage of our viewers: what
about homosexuality amongst the invaders? What video record
titles should they look for?”
[Dr. Bird] “It’s odd, but I have seen no confirmed sign of
homosexuality among them, at least the closely watched
warriors. Trying to explain this has thrown my study group
into loops and utterly baffled our consultant on sexual
relations, Uncle Binky.”
[Youngman] “No records at all?”
[Dr. Bird] “Well, we do have one video record titled
“Bathing Beauties” of two female invader warriors in the
shower washing each other’s backs. There’s some tickling
and goosing, but that seems more playful than sexual. It’s
already proving a popular download. However, our marketing
consultant – that’s Uncle Binky again – pointed out the
danger to our sales if we couldn’t come up with something
better. So we did put together some still image
compilations of each invader in as many poses as we could
find them in. They’re available by name for two photograph
compilations per C-bill. For a C-bill per invader, the PIA
is also offering 3D-rendered models for standard virtual
reality and home holographic entertainment systems. Those
were built out of the photograph compilations and medical
records.”
[Youngman] “That’s very inventive. On the PIA netsite, you
said? And that warrior’s name is Bruce?”
[Maria jots a note on a piece of paper.]
[Dr. Bird] “Yep. And that’s not all! Uncle Binky offered
the PIA the use of his proprietary video overlay and
simulation technology. This is a bit more expensive, but it
allows you to plug the 3D renderings of your favorite
invaders into a Binky Films simulator software package and
have them perform a number of different-“
[Youngman] “Wait, wait, wait. Is that the system ‘Uncle
Binky’ used in 3028 that got him in such trouble with
Tharkad and Luthien? The ‘surveillance records’ of a
supposed ‘private meeting of 3020’ between Archon Katrina
Steiner and Coordinator Takashi Kurita where the Archon
‘tried to convince the Coordinator to seek peace between
their two Great Houses’ in about the same way whatshername,
Anna, is consoling Bruce?”
[Dr. Bird looks up to the still-running video behind them,
and then back to the camera.]
[Dr. Bird] “Yes, I do believe the current simulator is a
director descendant of that famous software package. It did
get Uncle Binky in a lot of trouble, but perversely made
him quite famous. Or infamous, whatever. Very rich in any
case, and it certainly launched his career.”
[Youngman] “And you can get all these...instructional
records on the PIA netsite?”
[Dr. Bird] “Yup. All the video records, 3D models, and
photograph compilations are available on the PIA netsite
for no more than two C-bills apiece and are neatly
categorized. There are some excellent package deals
interested patriots should look into, especially of the 3D
models. I recall if you download at least ten models,
you’ll get a copy of the Binky Films Simulator for free.
There are others.”
[Youngman] “Can you browse before you buy? You know, to
pick out some 3D models of more invaders like Bruce?”
[Dr. Bird] “Certainly. There are thumbnails for each
download, and extensive text descriptions. Though I have
some bad news, worse news, and good news about your dear
Bruce.”
[Youngman] “Uh-oh. What’s wrong with him?”
[Dr. Bird] “The bad news is: he’s dead, as of two days
ago.”
[Youngman] “Damn. At least his 3D model will immortalize
him.”
[Dr. Bird] “And his DNA, I think. The invaders have this
funny obsession about using DNA from great warriors rather
than just cooking up the exact, engineered genes they want.
My study group was curious about how they would handle this
new form of immortalization. Anyway, the worse news is:
Bruce is invader behind the Bakersfield Street Massacre.”
[Youngman] “Him? He’s the monster that butchered 27
innocent civilians?”
[Dr. Bird] “Yes. This leads me to another sociology factoid
about the invaders: they don’t know much about war. Their
concept of a war is a series of duels between honorable
warriors, where everyone is truthful and forthright and
fights dumb even if they’re severely disadvantaged against
a foe. The side that loses the most duels surrenders
gracefully and the winners let them go home like nothing
happened. This, of course, clashed with the way our
patriotic soldiers and militias know how to wage war. The
militia that raided the Bakersfield Pub and killed 5 of the
off-duty invaders had very carefully hidden their
identities. Heck, they even came in from a neighboring to
city to avoid endangering the locals with any knowledge of
their identities. What the locals didn’t know couldn’t be
coerced from them, right? But the idea that the locals
might not know the valiant patriots never occurred to the
invaders, where every warrior knows the names and deeds of
each other. So Bruce in particular just began shooting
bystanders one at a time until someone confessed to the
attack, or told him the identify of the attackers. Which
they couldn’t do because they didn’t know, so Bruce had a
lot of shooting to do. When the crowd broke and ran after
the fourth or fifth execution of an innocent, Bruce’s whole
power armor squad began firing into the crowd under the
theory the culprits were in the crowd or that the invaders
could at ‘balance the scales of justice’ by butchering the
compatriots of the valiant militia soldiers behind the
attack. I guess everyone on this planet is “in” on the
resistance in the Clanners’ opinions. You’ll learn that by
listening the ‘atrocious dialogue’ at the beginning of the
video record.”
[Dr. Bird’s statements were very biased and contain some
facts that were proven inaccurate or incorrect later during
the Clan invasion. However, propaganda doesn’t need correct
facts to whip the masses into a patriotic frenzy, so no one
took the time to correct him.]
[Youngman] “Well, wouldn’t the good news have been the
Butcher of Bakersfield Street is dead?”
[Dr. Bird] “Oh, I just said that was bad news because you
seemed interested in Bruce. Despite the flaws in his rotten
soul, I suppose it was a waste of a good body. Anyway, my
good news is that the Butcher is dead because a patriot
collected the five million C-bill reward on his head. It
was collected just three days ago, along with one million
C-bill rewards on two of the other participants in the
Massacre.”
[Youngman] “That *is* excellent news! Do you have video
records of that?”
[Dr. Bird] “I’ve been told there are, but the whole records
won’t be marketed. They would be too instructional for the
invaders on the tactics our brave soldiers and militias
use. There are some stills of his body in his photograph
compilation, though.”
[Youngman] “Remember, viewers, you can pick up the
photographs of the Butcher of Bakersfield Street’s corpse
on the PIA netsite along with many other fascinating
records on the barbaric invaders. Well, Dr. Bird, this has
certainly been a fascinating discussion. I’d hope to see on
you PNN again sometime soon, but today we seem to be out of
time.”
[closing pleasantries deleted from transcript]
[Video overlay grows to fill the screen as the anchor desk
fades out. It has two face-only still photographs: one of
Anna and one of Bruce, taken from the video record just
reviewed. Anna is slacked jawed with ecstasy, one of her
eyes is half closed and the other wide open. Bruce’s face
is nearly purple with strain and fearsomely scrunched up.
Veins as thick as a normal human’s thumb stand out on his
temples and neck. With loud, metallic smashing sounds like
the world’s largest hammer striking metal, an “X” is
stamped over Bruce’s face. To similar sound effect, three
concentric circles are sequentially stamped over Anna’s
face to form a bulls-eye.]
[Announcer] “The Butcher of Bakersfield Street was shot
down like a dog he was by heroic patriots two days ago. Now
they’re coming for *you,* Anna, and they want the *one
hundred thousand C-Bill bounty* the government is offering
for the confirmed kill of any common invader.”
[end transcript]
RGM INPUT REQUESTED
So, think of Clan invaders early in the invasion. They have
overrun a planet with a population in the hundreds of
millions, even billions and are grossly outnumbered.
Unprepared as they are to deal with a modern intelligence
agency, possibly unaware of the potential of electronic
surveillance equipment (especially ‘bugs’), every facet of
their life is caught on camera.
And then the planet runs a smear campaign based on its
distributed future internet-equivalent. All those intimate
details get splashed across the news for public consumption
where they are marketed as porn. Millions of teenagers and
lonely engineers and bored couples will use the gyrations
and bedroom gymnastics of the nude Clan warriors for
perverse entertainment.
And the invaders are helpless to stop it. By the time they
can blow up a handful of net servers and websites (or 31st
Century equivalent), every interested pervert has a copy on
their home computer. Of course, the Clanners know they’re
being viewed like this because they probably have access to
the internet-equivalent, too. Hell, that’s where all
telecommunications probably take place in the 31st Century:
TV, telephone, e-mail, websurfing, etc. all on the
“internet.”
(I wonder about the Clan Chatterweb and pornography. “Proof
of laborer caste ID required – laborers only! See the
untouchable do the unthinkable! Hot, lusty warriors
‘wrestle’ in the shower! A pair of warriors having an
scandalous on-duty tryst in a Timberwolf’s cockpit – but
what’s that tech doing in there with the motor oil?! See it
on this website...” No, wait, one question at a time.)
Then there’s the impact of poster/TV ad campaigns featuring
the warriors, letting the public (and Clanners) know what
sort of dirty photos and videos are available. Sure, they
can tear down one poster or shoot up a server in one nerd’s
apartment, but there are thousands and thousand more across
the planet...
Question 1:
How would Clan warriors handle that sort of exposure (pun
intended)? Blasé about it? (“It’s just sex and bare skin.
What’s all the excitement?”) Or murderous?
Question 2:
What do you think of the potential of 100,000 C-bill
bounties for each Clanner on an Inner Sphere planet (of 1+
billion people) for accelerating the demise of the Clan
garrison? And a similar advertising campaign to make the
bounties known to the public and Clans?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
PS: No, I don't get out a lot.
PPS: Pixie brand monitors suck nuts. Only buy name brand
monitors.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
J. Calvert
<cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip long post and funny story>
Judging by what's been written, especially with regards to Stackpole,
I would say Clanners turned unwilling porn stars would not understand
what the problem is. To them, they wouldn't understand what the big
deal is. It would be like a Frenchman video taping a Nazi taking a
leak: The Nazis are just gonna think the French are stupid, even if it
makes the invaders a subject of humor.
I would also think a Clan garrison would be larger than a few hundred.
There's an awful lot of support personnel, not to mention I think the
Clans would not be so stupid as to be unable to realize that they are
massively outnumbered. While you can't hold a population by force
indefinitely, the old "Kill one of us, we kill 100 of you" method
tends to scare the population, and in the absence of a strong leader,
works. Additionally, many Clans move in their merchants, etc to the
Inner Sphere. That builds ties, etc to the conquered populace. While
the Warrior caste is odd, from what I've read, the lower castes like
the laborers and the merchants aren't all that different from the IS.
Finally, if you're a backwater world, you may have to contend with
Clan supporters. While people are offended by "alien invaders", the
Clans also bring technology. In some cases, this means an improved
standard of living.
As for your other question, I think any sort of "incentive" program
would be met with violence. While that news blurb you wrote was funny,
I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
down. I'd think they are like the Combine: they have a grip on the
media. And if you're underground, they're gonna come hunting you. It
works both ways, they can offer rewards too. They probably have more
money/bargaining than you. I mean, there is no way the government is
gonna be in open rebellion. For the most part, what Stackpole wrote is
that the Clans left the local government intact. It's more like "We're
not going to impose on you, and we're going to build back everything
we destroyed and make it better. In exchange, you cooperate. Everyone
wins."
I don't doubt that a group of determined skilled individuals could go
a long way to or even completely overthrow a Clan garrison as they
could use so many tactics Clanners can't comprehend. But I don't think
it's as easy as you make out or otherwise there would have been a lot
of rebellion worlds in the IS.
The one problem with your argument is you're assuming they WANT to
overthrow the Clans. Then what? They go back to the Great House they
had before? In some cases, more particularly the Combine, the world
may be better off with the Clans.
Michael Miller
>Judging by what's been written, especially with regards to Stackpole,
>I would say Clanners turned unwilling porn stars would not understand
>what the problem is. To them, they wouldn't understand what the big
>deal is.
I suspected that might happen. However, it works
great for propaganda against the Clans, which is an
area I bring up below.
>I would also think a Clan garrison would be larger than a few hundred.
>There's an awful lot of support personnel, not to mention I think the
>Clans would not be so stupid as to be unable to realize that they are
>massively outnumbered.
The total Clan population is 1.4 billion - it isn't
hard to find individual planets in the Inner Sphere
that have twice the entire Clan population.
From Warriors of Kerensky, the total Clan warrior
population is 110,500 from across all the Clans. I'd
be dubious if you told me 110,500 warriors was enough
to garrison and control a unwilling population of over
1 billion.
This means you might expect 6500-7000 warriors
per Clan. Which is not enough to garrison a population
of over 1 billion.
For an invading Clan to garrison, say, 10 worlds
and save none for further offense or defense of
worlds back in Clan space, the garrisons would be
around 600-700.
Plus techs, laborers, and assorted other "support"
personnel, who don't exactly represent a threat
until the Clans begin equipping them with battle
armor or mechs.
>While you can't hold a population by force
>indefinitely, the old "Kill one of us, we kill 100 of you" method
>tends to scare the population, and in the absence of a strong leader,
>works.
Which was rather than point of the guerilla warfare techniques
in my post: make the Clans hated/not respected. While the porn
might not anger the Clan warriors at all, I don't think the
captive populous is going to take them very seriously. (Very
seriously in terms of being a better, alternative government.
I'm the Clans will remain thoroughly respect as butchers.)
Obviously if the populous remains apathetic and no counter
position is generated, the Clans will have time to make
themselves look good. But that was the point of the porn
campaign and news briefs on every little massacre the Clans
commit.
>Additionally, many Clans move in their merchants, etc to the
>Inner Sphere. That builds ties, etc to the conquered populace.
Sounds a lot like the "win their hearts and minds" thing
the US tried in Vietnam. That didn't work on the South
Vietnamese, and they started as our allies. The Clans
won't necessarily have that advantage.
>Finally, if you're a backwater world, you may have to contend with
>Clan supporters. While people are offended by "alien invaders", the
>Clans also bring technology. In some cases, this means an improved
>standard of living.
The Clans did well on backwater worlds - can't disagree
with that. But I wasn't addressing the Clan invasion in
general. I was addressing their invasion of a well-
populated planet with enough technology to support a
global "internet" equivalent. That's not a primitive
backwater world.
>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>down.
Shut down what station where with what troops? How
do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
computers it's coming from?
What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
servers across the planet?
>I'd think they are like the Combine: they have a grip on the
>media.
How? How do the Clans miraculously achieve control over
something as diffuse as a 31st century internet? Where
do they get the manpower to monitor every website?
>And if you're underground, they're gonna come hunting you.
I'm sure the Clans are hunting some "guerillas,"
big targets like the planetary leadership, but
they don't have the *manpower* to hunt many guerilla
groups. See my quote from Guide to the Clans on the
Clans' ability to do any sort of detective work.
>It works both ways, they can offer rewards too. They
>probably have more money/bargaining than you.
Clans don't use money per se. Though I'm sure a
Timberwolf and a point of elementals could get a
generous loan from a bank fast enough.
>I mean, there
>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
storms into your government office, barks out some
orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
government workers just go home and take paid leave for
a few months while the invaders are around?
>The one problem with your argument is you're assuming they WANT to
>overthrow the Clans
A Lyran/FC or FRR planet is pretty good about
civil rights. Often, the planets are allowed to pretty
much set up their own governments. No comment on the Combine.
Republics, democracies, etc. seem pretty common in Lyran
space, and I don't recall the FRR tolerating their
leadership getting uppity. This does mean most FC and FRR
planets can chose their own local, planetary governments.
The government they have is one they've chosen.
The Clans, however, employ a caste system, backtracking
social sciences several millennia. Governance is based
on a might-makes-right system. The judicial system and
police (for non-warriors) rarely even play lip service
to fairness or evidence.
("Clan police investigative standards are not nearly as high
as those of Inner Sphere police departments. Rather than
solving crimes,** Clan police primarily attempt to discourage
them by promising extreme punishment to those caught and
convincted. Clan police therefore tend toward brutal
and authoritarian behavior, often taking out their anger
on the very people they are meant to protect." pg73, MW's
Guide to the Clans.)
And, of course, the Clans aren't exactly going to give
a former republic a chance to vote their new Clan leadership
out of power, nor was the populous given much choice about
the installation of Clan authority in the first place. I've
noticed externally, violently imposed governments seem to
rub natives the wrong way.
**This bodes ill well for the Clan warriors sent to hunt
down "underground" guerillas who took care to cover their
tracks. You know, "underground": back to work at the office
building across the street from the Clan barracks, or
in the mid-level managerial position in the government,
or any of a million other innocuous places for a few
hundred Clan warriors to search through.
The Clans ARE an improvement for many worlds in the
Inner Sphere. But they're marauding, destructive barbarians
to others.
And there aren't many of them. That's the cool part.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
PS: Pixie monitors still suck.
Sola...@aol.com
<cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Which was rather than point of the guerilla warfare techniques
>in my post: make the Clans hated/not respected. While the porn
>might not anger the Clan warriors at all, I don't think the
>captive populous is going to take them very seriously. (Very
>seriously in terms of being a better, alternative government.
>I'm the Clans will remain thoroughly respect as butchers.)
>
I don't know. I think I would take someone who is 7+ foot of muscle VERY
seriously. (Good GOD. How could I even THINK of fighting a person that big!)
And the porno flicks might INCREASE their reputation to some people.
>Obviously if the populous remains apathetic and no counter
>position is generated, the Clans will have time to make
>themselves look good. But that was the point of the porn
>campaign and news briefs on every little massacre the Clans
>commit.
>
And what makes you think that news brief will get out? It does not take much
to take out the TV stations. Or take over the TV stations. Or just overwhelm
the signal with one of your own. The Clans have experience with propaganda
also. Even if its more blatant. (Take "The Adventures of Clan Spanail") for
instance. Not to mention. "We are the TRUE descendant of the Star League!"
Remember almost everyone in the IS still has a very high opinion of that era.
>
>The Clans did well on backwater worlds - can't disagree
>with that. But I wasn't addressing the Clan invasion in
>general. I was addressing their invasion of a well-
>populated planet with enough technology to support a
>global "internet" equivalent. That's not a primitive
>backwater world.
>
The net could also be their greatest tool also. Clan computer tech is much
more advanced that that of the IS. They are able to add a few little programs
to watch who is doing what. And some of the Clans have spent a LOT of time
working on Internets. (The Chatterweb)
>
>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>computers it's coming from?
>
How does a person in Europe take down computers in the USA? They hack it. :)
And as I said, the Clans are very good with computers. Even Comstar could not
break the encryption on the one jumpship they captured.
>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>servers across the planet?
>
Oh a nice little virus could do the job if used properly.
>
>How? How do the Clans miraculously achieve control over
>something as diffuse as a 31st century internet? Where
>do they get the manpower to monitor every website?
>
Haven't you ever heard of search engines? They program their computers to do
the work for them. (Search the entire net for these words and phrases used in
this particular order.) Several major gov's in the world are already doing
this.
>I'm sure the Clans are hunting some "guerillas,"
>big targets like the planetary leadership, but
>they don't have the *manpower* to hunt many guerilla
>groups. See my quote from Guide to the Clans on the
>Clans' ability to do any sort of detective work.
>
Guerillas have to be supported by a large part of the population. If the
population is apathetic, few guerillas. If the Clans don't make to many waves
and run roughshod over the population, they really won't care what the Clans
do. Rebellion fizzles out.
>
>Clans don't use money per se. Though I'm sure a
>Timberwolf and a point of elementals could get a
>generous loan from a bank fast enough.
>
They DO have better health facilities and can offer one thing the IS tends to
be short of. Stability. You would not believe how many people would sell
their freedom for peace and stability.
>>I mean, there
>>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
>
>And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
>to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
>buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
>diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
>going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
>
And how is a large government controlled. From a few central locations. You
don't need to kill people. Just tell the leaders. "You make sure there is no
trouble and we do not bother you. BUT if you do cause problems. I am sure we
can find someone who would help us."
>How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
>storms into your government office, barks out some
>orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
>porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
>orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
>going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
>the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
>government workers just go home and take paid leave for
>a few months while the invaders are around?
>
It would be more like how long before the planet went to hell and the
population begged the Clans to help. The Clans would not be inconvenienced by
the strike. The general population would feel the effects and many peoples
anger would turn on those govt. workers. After all the Clans didn't do
anything to the general population. The govt. workers not doing their jobs
did. They hurt themselves more than they hurt the Clans. And for the most
part the military does not have much contact with the population. The
Clanners the govt/population would see would be merchants. Who would be no
threating.
>
>The Clans, however, employ a caste system, backtracking
>social sciences several millennia. Governance is based
>on a might-makes-right system. The judicial system and
>police (for non-warriors) rarely even play lip service
>to fairness or evidence.
>
You are making the assumption that the Clans start immediately trying to
impose Clan ways of life on the planet. Even CSJ did not try that hard. All
they wanted was the population to admit the Clans where the boss's and keep
out of trouble.
>
>And, of course, the Clans aren't exactly going to give
>a former republic a chance to vote their new Clan leadership
>out of power, nor was the populous given much choice about
>the installation of Clan authority in the first place. I've
>noticed externally, violently imposed governments seem to
>rub natives the wrong way.
>
As I said, in most cases the Clans didn't try setting up a Clan govt. They
didn't even have time to start such a thing during the invasion. And after
the Invasion most of the Clans have learned enough to know what not to do. sm
Scene: Early China, Situation: A group of draftee's stuck in the mud.
1st Draftee: What's the penalty for being late?
2nd Draftee: Death.
1st Draftee: What's the penalty for rebellion?
2nd Draftee: Death.
1st Draftee: Guess what? Were LATE!
Guess what happened next?
Taken from "The Cartoon History of the Universe #2" by Larry Gonick.
Michael Miller
>In article <F32H0FORyjY08...@hotmail.com>, Michael Miller
><cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>Which was rather than point of the guerilla warfare techniques
>>in my post: make the Clans hated/not respected. While the porn
>>might not anger the Clan warriors at all, I don't think the
>>captive populous is going to take them very seriously. (Very
>>seriously in terms of being a better, alternative government.
>>I'm the Clans will remain thoroughly respect as butchers.)
>
>I don't know. I think I would take someone who is 7+ foot of
>muscle VERY seriously.
Yup. That's why I tacked on that last sentence. I would
*always* take a Clan warrior seriously while I was within
the range of his weapons.
>Obviously if the populous remains apathetic and no counter
>position is generated, the Clans will have time to make
>themselves look good. But that was the point of the porn
>campaign and news briefs on every little massacre the Clans
>commit.
>
>And what makes you think that news brief will get out? It
>does not take much to take out the TV stations.
Which station of all the hundreds of local affiliates,
and where is it? Again, you run into manpower issues.
For every station you "shut down" (did you kill all
the workers, or let them run home to put out internet
posts with all the juicey details intended for the
TV "broadcast"?), there are another dozen affiliates.
>Or take over the TV stations.
How? They have a few hundred warriors to monitor at
least as many TV stations, to say nothing of websites.
>Or just overwhelm the signal with one of your own.
"Overwhelm" a fiber optic signal? I'm sure one
Guardian ECM suite can shut down the broadcast
TV and radio stations in a city, but I doubt they'll
do much for the 1000 cable channels.
>Not to mention. "We are the TRUE descendant of the Star League!"
>Remember almost everyone in the IS still has a very high opinion
>of that era.
The intent of the government's propaganda campaign: point
out that the Clans act more like Amaris than the Star
League. That should take the wind out of anyone infatuated
with the Clans as the "Return of Kerensky." A few 'incidents'
blown out of proportion like the Boston Massacre and you've
got a full scale uprising on your hand. It worked in 1776,
and the British seem nicer than the Clans. :)
>The net could also be their greatest tool also. Clan computer
>tech is much more advanced that that of the IS.
"Goddamit, I can't get to the game server, or my favorite
porn site! I keep getting redirected to this 'We are the
Clans, We are your friends' hokey-ass website! Gawd,
what loser of a webpage designer put this thing together?
Don't they know anything about target demographics?"
Do Clan technicians have much experience with shaping
propaganda to a target demographic? Do they even have
social scientists?
I don't think the Clans have very much experience at
all with filtering programs that would NOT piss off
a majority of web users. I suspect they're pretty
used to just using caste and ID's to keep people out
of parts of the Chatterweb where they don't belong.
>They are able to add a few little programs to watch
>who is doing what. And some of the Clans have spent
>a LOT of time working on Internets. (The Chatterweb)
An entirely different sort of internet where censorship
is a given and the military has the final say. Monitoring
programs? Sure. Could they keep the programs on the
servers before native techs purge that server or unhook
the Clan hardware Clan techs bolted on? Again, you're
hitting a manpower limitation.
The Clan techs can't travel unescorted, so the number
of servers that can be visited is rather limited.
>
>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>computers it's coming from?
>
>How does a person in Europe take down computers in the USA?
>They hack it. :)
And that damage lasts...days? Hours? And does not make
the Clans look any better in the eyes in the natives?
>And as I said, the Clans are very good with
>computers. Even Comstar could not break the encryption on the
>one jumpship they captured.
There are many different computer skills. Ability to massively
encrypt files does not denote the ability to censor web
traffic. Super powerful computers and outstanding ability
to maintain them does not denote good hacking talents.
>>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>>servers across the planet?
>
>Oh a nice little virus could do the job if used properly.
Right, right. Just like MS Outlook viruses *always* bring
down *every* MS Outlook user across the planet. Assuming
it works, the virus will work the first time.
And since when did Clan techs suddenly become masters of
foreign computer technology ("Windows 2340? WTF kind of
operating system is that?") that's probably 5 to 8
centuries out of date compared to the systems they
trained on. Do you think the Melissa virus would run
on ENIAC? Do you think someone who trained on the latest
Pentium IV's and RISC processors and writes viruses for
Linux and Windows could even write a virus for ENIAC?
>
>>How? How do the Clans miraculously achieve control over
>>something as diffuse as a 31st century internet? Where
>>do they get the manpower to monitor every website?
>
>Haven't you ever heard of search engines? They program their
>computers to do the work for them. (Search the entire net for
>these words and phrases used in this particular order.) Several
>major gov's in the world are already doing this.
Manpower limitation:
"Yes, Star Commander! We have found evidence of dissident
speaches against the Clans on the internet! We even have
the real world addresses of every one of them!"
"Excellent, excellent. Where are these cowardly surats?"
"Which ones?"
"Well, all of them."
"The entire compiled list is over there. The 10cm 3-ring binders."
"Which binder? There must be 30."
"32, actually. We found that 27,098,343 specifically anti-Clan
messages were made on this planet's internet in the past week.
Those binders have the addresses of 112,783 who triggered our
search engine's criteria for apparently intending serious harm
against our people."
And how long do those search engines work when the operators
of the servers are probably trying to screw with the search
engines? At least the governments have the cooperation of
the server operators.
>Guerillas have to be supported by a large part of the population.
>If the population is apathetic, few guerillas.
Which is the point of the propaganda.
>If the Clans don't make to many waves and run roughshod over
>the population, they really won't care what the Clans do. Rebellion fizzles
>out.
Hmm. Sort of like the Japanese in WWII, right? They only
attacked US military targets and were just looking for
the US to acknowledge Japanese superiority in the Pacific.
Maybe get the oil trade going again. John Q. Public didn't
support a guerilla war against the Japanese at all - he
went and joined the Marines.
Why would you think any public would just stand for having
a foreigner invader launch a sneak attack, destroy your
military bases, and then accept the government bowing to
the invaders?
Would the Japanese have really been cruel masters? Wouldn't
they have been happy with just getting the surrender of
the local governments and the share of local resources they
wanted? Why did the locals get so agitated?
>
>Clans don't use money per se. Though I'm sure a
>Timberwolf and a point of elementals could get a
>generous loan from a bank fast enough.
>
>They DO have better health facilities
I'd expect the difference between 23rd Century IS
medical tech and 31st Century Clan medical technology
to be the number of exotic diseases than can cure.
What common ailments are there that 23rd century medtech
can't cure that 31st century medtech can?
>and can offer one thing the IS tends to be short of. Stability.
>You would not believe how many people would sell their freedom
>for peace and stability.
I'm in utter disagreement here. The Clans invaded (war, not
peace), enraged the remainder of the Great House the planet
belonged to (so there will be more war when the House
attempts to clear off the planet, not peace), disrupted
centuries old systems of government (aren't the Houses all
about 3 times as old as the Clans? Now THAT'S stability),
and INVADED. Where is their peace and stability?
>>I mean, there
>>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
>
>And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
>to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
>buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
>diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
>going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
>
>And how is a large government controlled. From a few central
>locations. You don't need to kill people. Just tell the leaders.
>"You make sure there is no trouble and we do not bother you. BUT
>if you do cause problems. I am sure we can find someone who would
>help us."
Again, I disagree. When a few central leaders are controlled
at gunpoint, it's easy for the rest of the government to find
replacements. Does the majority of the government even need
central authority figures? When was the last time the President
cut a social security check, or authorized every case the
FBI handled in a month?
For the most part, the top leadership of a government can be
ignored. They usually are.
>How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
>storms into your government office, barks out some
>orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
>porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
>orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
>going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
>the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
>government workers just go home and take paid leave for
>a few months while the invaders are around?
>
>It would be more like how long before the planet went to hell
>and the population begged the Clans to help.
What parts of the government do you think the Clans would
be interested in?
Would the Clans every walk into a local judge's office,
or would they stick to the Supreme Court?
Would the Clans frequently give orders to the welfare
department?
Would the Clans try to run the education department?
How about the EPA equivalent?
The Energy department?
99.99% of the government would never be bothered by the
Clans, and thus there's little risk of the government
"going to hell". The only part they would bother with
would be the small fraction that shores up their problems
governing the planet: the FBI-equivalent to find guerillas,
the military to suppress guerillas, and...what else?
So what if the FBI closes shop for a few months? The
local police have more work to do. It's not going to
send the planet into total anarchy.
>
>The Clans, however, employ a caste system, backtracking
>social sciences several millennia. Governance is based
>on a might-makes-right system. The judicial system and
>police (for non-warriors) rarely even play lip service
>to fairness or evidence.
>
>You are making the assumption that the Clans start immediately
>trying to impose Clan ways of life on the planet. Even CSJ did
>not try that hard. All they wanted was the population to admit
>the Clans where the boss's and keep out of trouble.
I didn't really make the assumption - it was just juicy
rhetoric. :)
Yes, the Clans leave the populations and governments alone,
and that's perfect for a rebellion.
"Leaving the government alone" = "no control."
While El Presidenta and the Congress are held at gun point
by Elementals and signing order after order that the rest
of the government ignores, the military is free to set up
training camps (secretly, of course) and enlist thousands
of new recruits or give instruction on "how to be a guerilla
soldier."
The police are free to ignore guerilla activity because
the Clan overlords are leaving them alone, and the bulk
of the government can keep functioning (and thus keep
the planet running) like nothing was wrong. By leaving
the government mostly alone, the Clans are ensuring a
steady stream of anti-Clan propaganda can be generated
and resistance can continue.
Hell, police can resist Clanners on the streets, neglect to
report the arrest, and the Clans will never know what
happened to their missing people because they were leaving
the judicial branch of the government alone.
By leaving the government alone to do its own thing, you
are giving it leave to resist the invaders with just about
every asset it has - except for the few that the invaders
keep an eye on.
>
>As I said, in most cases the Clans didn't try setting up a Clan
>govt.
And that is such a beautiful thing, too.
Mike Miller, MatE
Pixie monitors suck nuts
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
"Michael Miller" <cra...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:F32yseVwrblZz...@hotmail.com...
[one of the biggest snips of my NG career]
[snip remarks about elemental dick size]
Yeah, just imagine what the elementals of Clan Super Stallion must look like
*g*
> And the invaders are helpless to stop it. By the time they
> can blow up a handful of net servers and websites (or 31st
> Century equivalent), every interested pervert has a copy on
> their home computer. Of course, the Clanners know they're
> being viewed like this because they probably have access to
> the internet-equivalent, too. Hell, that's where all
> telecommunications probably take place in the 31st Century:
> TV, telephone, e-mail, websurfing, etc. all on the
> "internet."
Hmm. Battlemechs targetting computers are so crap that you stand little
chance of hitting something 300m away. People ride to work. On the other
hand you have a planet-wide internet equivalent. Sounds not too coherent to
me. Infrastructure *is* bad in the IS - IMHO at least. Even on densely
populated worlds.
> (I wonder about the Clan Chatterweb and pornography. "Proof
> of laborer caste ID required - laborers only! See the
> untouchable do the unthinkable! Hot, lusty warriors
> 'wrestle' in the shower! A pair of warriors having an
> scandalous on-duty tryst in a Timberwolf's cockpit - but
> what's that tech doing in there with the motor oil?! See it
> on this website..." No, wait, one question at a time.)
The Clans probably have less need for pornography because they can vent
steam whenever they like.
> Then there's the impact of poster/TV ad campaigns featuring
> the warriors, letting the public (and Clanners) know what
> sort of dirty photos and videos are available. Sure, they
> can tear down one poster or shoot up a server in one nerd's
> apartment, but there are thousands and thousand more across
> the planet...
That wouldn´t be too much of a smear campaign to my mind. I guess you are
talking about the LC as I would rule out the existence of internet
equivalents in the DC. In the LC they are rather liberal about sex. It´s not
the "Bible Belt" we are talking about :)
BThere is a passage in the House steiner SB about people enjoying the
explicitly sexual performance of "Thera and her Red deltas" which included
sado-masochism - so I don´t think people would be too disturbed by Clanners
doing it doggy-style in the shower/bedroom etc.
> Question 1:
> How would Clan warriors handle that sort of exposure (pun
> intended)? Blasé about it? ("It's just sex and bare skin.
> What's all the excitement?") Or murderous?
If I don´t care about being naked I don´t care about being naked in front of
several billions. An athletic body is a sign of status among the Clans I
suppose - it shows you are a warrior. So what´s the fuss about a Clanner
being shown naked? They might take offence about bugs installed in their
bunks. But if everything is so high-tech why don´t the Clans have the
possibility to find out about the bugs? As they are only few in numbers they
don´t need much rooms and transmitting a videosignal should leave some
traces. So the Clans should be able to monitor their living rooms - if they
care at all that is. Try installing a bug in some military insatllation - if
you achieve this try making it public. If you advertise it you are attiring
unwanted attention. If someone cares -the internet is full of crap so I
don´t know why the planetary populace should find out at all - the military
installations are going to be checked. Even the Clans are not that stupid.
Then it starts getting interesting. If you are broadcasting it on a pirate
channel: They should pinpoint you rather fast. Not even the Clanner
personally but the planetary administration branch which keeps an eye on
pirate channels.
> Question 2:
> What do you think of the potential of 100,000 C-bill
> bounties for each Clanner on an Inner Sphere planet (of 1+
> billion people) for accelerating the demise of the Clan
> garrison? And a similar advertising campaign to make the
> bounties known to the public and Clans?
Hmm. I don´t think it a good idea to show you the enemy in such an intimate
way. The enemy is killed best when being faceless. You dont want to know
that your enemy is called Bruce and likes having sex with Anna. It makes him
too human. People don´t enjoy killing people they know even from a glance -
except Charles Manson perhaps.´They prefer killing "gooks" or "Charlie".
And why should there be hatred against the Clan invaders? People should be
getting used at being invaded after 200+ years of constant warfare. I didn´t
hear about the successful application of guerilla tactics during Hanse´s
conquest of the CC. I didn´t hear about House Kurita having problems with
absorbing a big chunk of the LC. So it seems to me FASA pulled guerilla out
of their arse because the Clans *had* to lose in the long run and discarded
guerilla because Hanse *had* to win the 4th SW. I don´t get it why Lyrans
should be passive when being invaded by House Kurita - which has a long
record when it comes to the butchering of civilians - but suddenly go
underground because Clan JF conquers their world. After all the Clans don´t
overthrow the planetary political structure - as House Kurita would do it -
but let the people continue their daily life as usual.
´To the clans not having enough manpower:
It´s not the Clan warriors' duty to shut down TV stations or servers - they
are of the warrior caste and not some tested down police-men. The planetary
police can handle it. And planetary police *will* handle it because the
police chief has a job to lose. And because the planetary ruler has a (well
paid?) job to lose as well. And because people want their life to go on
undisturbed. They don´t need bombs blowing up around them and nutty
terrorists who disrupt their lives. 200+ years of constant warfare can start
getting on your nerves.
My 0.01 euros on the matter.
regards
Patrick
J. Calvert
<cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>J. Calvert said:
>
>>Judging by what's been written, especially with regards to Stackpole,
>>I would say Clanners turned unwilling porn stars would not understand
>>what the problem is. To them, they wouldn't understand what the big
>>deal is.
>
>I suspected that might happen. However, it works
>great for propaganda against the Clans, which is an
>area I bring up below.
I really don't think it is. In a moral society, yes, however this is a
largely a society without morals. If the 31st century is like this,
well, then you have problems. I mean, it's just porn. It's just people
having sex. I'm not genetically bred, and I don't see the big deal
over it. Some people make a stink over porn and I don't see why
(unless it's kiddie porn, those people need to be shot.). I don't
watch porn. I don't see the big excitement. So what, it's a movie that
Billy Joe is going to rent and wank the monkey over. Other than as a
comical device I just really care.
Sex just doesn't have scandal value anymore. Bill Clinton had sex
outside of his marriage and people across the world got to hear about
his involvement in "oral sex". But by and large the American people
didn't seem to care. (I won't go into the legal issues behind it)
>
>>I would also think a Clan garrison would be larger than a few hundred.
>>There's an awful lot of support personnel, not to mention I think the
>>Clans would not be so stupid as to be unable to realize that they are
>>massively outnumbered.
>
>The total Clan population is 1.4 billion - it isn't
>hard to find individual planets in the Inner Sphere
>that have twice the entire Clan population.
>
>From Warriors of Kerensky, the total Clan warrior
>population is 110,500 from across all the Clans. I'd
>be dubious if you told me 110,500 warriors was enough
>to garrison and control a unwilling population of over
>1 billion.
>
>This means you might expect 6500-7000 warriors
>per Clan. Which is not enough to garrison a population
>of over 1 billion.
>
>For an invading Clan to garrison, say, 10 worlds
>and save none for further offense or defense of
>worlds back in Clan space, the garrisons would be
>around 600-700.
>
OK, where did you get those numbers? If those are the numbers you're
going by, I can definitely see your point. I never read that
sourcebook, "Warriors of Kerensky". Are you sure you might not be
reading it out of context, as in 110,500 per Clan? Or maybe just
MechWarriors?
I mean...if those number are right, the logistics are indeed horrible.
I mean, I don't even see the Inner Sphere's worry then. Because they
so overwhelm them with numbers the Clans were no serious threat, ever.
Also, could they even man all those warships and dropships with only
that many people?
That number, even if it is from FASA, does not sound right at all to
me. If it is from them, then somebody in the editor's department
wasn't doing their job, because it works against all the fiction. Not
to mention the only limit on the number of warriors the Clans can have
is how many they can put in a vat. I would think they could crank out
scores of warriors, IF they wanted to.
>Plus techs, laborers, and assorted other "support"
>personnel, who don't exactly represent a threat
>until the Clans begin equipping them with battle
>armor or mechs.
>
That's a good point.
>>While you can't hold a population by force
>>indefinitely, the old "Kill one of us, we kill 100 of you" method
>>tends to scare the population, and in the absence of a strong leader,
>>works.
>
>Which was rather than point of the guerilla warfare techniques
>in my post: make the Clans hated/not respected. While the porn
>might not anger the Clan warriors at all, I don't think the
>captive populous is going to take them very seriously. (Very
>seriously in terms of being a better, alternative government.
>I'm the Clans will remain thoroughly respect as butchers.)
Like I said, Bill Clinton pretty much showed us that sexual
impropriety and governmental respect are not related. And before
that, Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe.
>
>Obviously if the populous remains apathetic and no counter
>position is generated, the Clans will have time to make
>themselves look good. But that was the point of the porn
>campaign and news briefs on every little massacre the Clans
>commit.
>
>>Additionally, many Clans move in their merchants, etc to the
>>Inner Sphere. That builds ties, etc to the conquered populace.
>
>Sounds a lot like the "win their hearts and minds" thing
>the US tried in Vietnam. That didn't work on the South
>Vietnamese, and they started as our allies. The Clans
>won't necessarily have that advantage.
For the most part, the Clans have their source of material, labor,
etc. back home. Does anyone know anything about Clan tax policies? If
the Clans basically eliminated all the interstellar nation produced
taxes, I would think that would please the locals.
"Well, instead of paying 15% to the Archon, we pay 1% "Garrison
Maintenance". Hmm...."
Now, yes, there will be inflation, but there won't be as much money
going out of the economy and people's percieved wealth will go up.
>
>>Finally, if you're a backwater world, you may have to contend with
>>Clan supporters. While people are offended by "alien invaders", the
>>Clans also bring technology. In some cases, this means an improved
>>standard of living.
>
>The Clans did well on backwater worlds - can't disagree
>with that. But I wasn't addressing the Clan invasion in
>general. I was addressing their invasion of a well-
>populated planet with enough technology to support a
>global "internet" equivalent. That's not a primitive
>backwater world.
>
Even then, the Clans have alot of technology to offer. They have alot
in the way of drugs, etc. and the MechWarrior material we have pretty
much shows that if you loose a limb they just grow you a new one. The
benefits of all their experience with genetic manipulation is indeed
tempting.
>>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>>down.
>
>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>computers it's coming from?
>
>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>servers across the planet?
You're making the assumption that the origin is hidden.
You presented your "blurb" in something resembling a typical newscast
from say, NBC.
Even if NBC started broadcasting over the Internet, it's possible to
trace things back.
I KNOW where the local NBC station is. It's not a secret. It has a
giant peacock on the side of it.
And NBC is a business. They make their money through advertising. I
mean, they HAVE published and well-known centers. The "Today" show, or
whatever it is is in Times Square. It's not like they don't know where
this stuff is being filmed.
The point is, if it's a big time media establishment, everyone would
know where thing are filmed and broadcasted. On their websites,
there's contact information. At the end of the National News
broadcasts, there's info about where they are, etc.
They would have no reason to be hidden before the Clan invasion. And I
don't know how or where you're going to hide a filming studio. There's
too many people involved.
That doesn't make sense logistically either.
Sure there's stuff like pirate signals, etc, but it's not on the kind
of professional level that you present.
And if it IS a pirate signal, I think the average person is aware that
it has a rebel bias.
>
>>I'd think they are like the Combine: they have a grip on the
>>media.
>
>How? How do the Clans miraculously achieve control over
>something as diffuse as a 31st century internet? Where
>do they get the manpower to monitor every website?
>
>>And if you're underground, they're gonna come hunting you.
>
>I'm sure the Clans are hunting some "guerillas,"
>big targets like the planetary leadership, but
>they don't have the *manpower* to hunt many guerilla
>groups. See my quote from Guide to the Clans on the
>Clans' ability to do any sort of detective work.
>
>>It works both ways, they can offer rewards too. They
>>probably have more money/bargaining than you.
>
>Clans don't use money per se. Though I'm sure a
>Timberwolf and a point of elementals could get a
>generous loan from a bank fast enough.
Well, like I already said, if aliens invaded tomarrow, it wouldn't be
hard for them to find NBC or CBS or anyone else. I've walked/driven
past the local NBC station dozens of times. And I don't even watch TV.
`
And even if they want to go underground and support the local
populace, you're assuming Peter Jennings wants to go on the lamb.
>
>>I mean, there
>>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
>
>And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
>to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
>buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
>diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
>going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
>
>How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
>storms into your government office, barks out some
>orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
>porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
>orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
>going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
>the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
>government workers just go home and take paid leave for
>a few months while the invaders are around?
>
Why would they do that?
The average person is not that self-less.
Clan Star Colonel: Well, Prime Minister Chavez, we want you to
continue running your government as you did before we arrived. We know
may not like us, but you do not have to like us. Just do as we ask,
and we will not be asking much at all. Simply try and keep the local
population in line and assist us in controlling rebellion.
Minister Chavez: And what if I don't help you?
Star Colonel: Then you will be replaced. It would be in your best
interests to help us though. We will improve life for your people, and
we will make sure that you personally benefit from cooperation.
President Chavez: I refuse to do anything for a bunch of scum sucking
rat bastards like you.
Star Colonel: Elemental Bob! Put citizen Chavez in the brig.
(turns to Vice Minister) Well, new Prime Minister Caldwell, we want
you to....
You get the point. The Clans will just go down the line till they find
people willing to assist them. I'm sure there will be someone who
would rather sell out and get greased palms and a promotion than to go
to jail on principals. I don't think the Clans are just going to kill
resistors. Violent people, yes. Civil disobedience to them would be
like insubordination and they'd just throw the person in jail.
>>The one problem with your argument is you're assuming they WANT to
>>overthrow the Clans
>
>A Lyran/FC or FRR planet is pretty good about
>civil rights. Often, the planets are allowed to pretty
>much set up their own governments. No comment on the Combine.
>Republics, democracies, etc. seem pretty common in Lyran
>space, and I don't recall the FRR tolerating their
>leadership getting uppity. This does mean most FC and FRR
>planets can chose their own local, planetary governments.
>The government they have is one they've chosen.
>
That government isn't the one supplanted by the Clans. The Clans
supplant the interstellar government. The local planetary government
is intact. I mean, even if they had MORE people than what you present,
it wouldn't make sense for them to try to also run the government.
They couldn't do that.
No, it would be the FC or the FRR that would be replaced, not the
planetary government.
And if I was living in 3063, I would be damn glad NOT to be part of
the Lyran Alliance (considering it's going to hell in a handbag).
The FRR? They don't seem to happy as it is. There seems to be
dissention over it basically becoming an extension of Com-Star...
I don't doubt that the people probably like their planetary
government, but their approval of the nation they belong to? I don't
really know about that. I mean, options are limited. Either join the
Lyran Alliance or declare independance. Well, being independant is
like asking to be used and abused and possibly invaded.
<snip>
>And, of course, the Clans aren't exactly going to give
>a former republic a chance to vote their new Clan leadership
>out of power, nor was the populous given much choice about
>the installation of Clan authority in the first place. I've
>noticed externally, violently imposed governments seem to
>rub natives the wrong way.
No doubt. But I only see the violence happening when the natives get
violent first.
>
>**This bodes ill well for the Clan warriors sent to hunt
>down "underground" guerillas who took care to cover their
>tracks. You know, "underground": back to work at the office
>building across the street from the Clan barracks, or
>in the mid-level managerial position in the government,
>or any of a million other innocuous places for a few
>hundred Clan warriors to search through.
>
>The Clans ARE an improvement for many worlds in the
>Inner Sphere. But they're marauding, destructive barbarians
>to others.
>
>And there aren't many of them. That's the cool part.
>
I find the numbers hard to swallow. I think if you're right, then
someone goofed somewhere. Because it doesn't add up.
If I can say anything, it's that ever since the age of colonization,
there has been plenty of hostile planetary take overs. And I'm sure
the Clans have record of all this. I'd say they subdue a planet the
same way a successor state does. (and I don't mean Kentares)
And, like I said, if it was that easy to overthrow the Clans, in 10
years+, it should have happened a few times.
Mike Miller
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 04:32:52 -0500, Michael Miller
<cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>J. Calvert said:
>
>>Judging by what's been written, especially with regards to Stackpole,
>>I would say Clanners turned unwilling porn stars would not understand
>>what the problem is. To them, they wouldn't understand what the big
>>deal is.
>
>I suspected that might happen. However, it works
>great for propaganda against the Clans, which is an
>area I bring up below.
>I really don't think it is. In a moral society, yes, however this is a
>largely a society without morals. If the 31st century is like this,
>well, then you have problems. I mean, it's just porn....Sex just
>doesn't have scandal value anymore.
Around the 1600s-1800s, I think Europe was getting
pretty easy going about sex. Then the Victorian
age kicked in, and everyone turned into prudes.
Over 1000 years between now and 3050 - do you think
such reversions to prudishness can happen again?
There's no particular indication morals in BT
have "loosened" beyond the 20th Century's. While
the Magistracy of Canopus is, of course, a stand
out, BT's future history has seen things like
a total reversion on women's rights in the Federated
Suns in the (IIRC) 2300s-2400s to the point they
couldn't go anywhere without the escort of a male
relative. ISTR the first Periphery Handbook (or SLSB?)
mentioning sex with mermaids (in the MoC, again) only
euphemistically - "And when the little missus is
away, I'll tell you what fun you could have with
the mermaids," or something like that.
Arranged marriages, wars over Davion heirs hooking
up with Kuritan heirs (not Omi-Vic, but a little
incident in the 1st Star League), suicide and murder
over affairs, dynasty-rocking scandals when a
First Prince turned out to be queer and his "heir"
had been supplied by a loyal general, etc. Kuritan
and Capellan societies seem particularly uptight
about marriage and sex, but I might be reading too
much into that.
Ah, wait, wasn't Phelan put a bit offbalance by
seeing nude Clan female warriors in the shower with
men?
I think that the average Inner Sphere planet is
prudish enough that extensively distributed nude
videos of Clan warriors would cause a loss of
respect for the invaders, or a loss of something.
>>I would also think a Clan garrison would be larger than a few hundred.
>>There's an awful lot of support personnel, not to mention I think the
>>Clans would not be so stupid as to be unable to realize that they are
>>massively outnumbered.
>
>The total Clan population is 1.4 billion - it isn't
>hard to find individual planets in the Inner Sphere
>that have twice the entire Clan population.
>
>From Warriors of Kerensky, the total Clan warrior
>population is 110,500 from across all the Clans. I'd
>be dubious if you told me 110,500 warriors was enough
>to garrison and control a unwilling population of over
>1 billion.
>
>This means you might expect 6500-7000 warriors
>per Clan. Which is not enough to garrison a population
>of over 1 billion.
>
>For an invading Clan to garrison, say, 10 worlds
>and save none for further offense or defense of
>worlds back in Clan space, the garrisons would be
>around 600-700.
>
>OK, where did you get those numbers? If those are
>the numbers you're going by, I can definitely see
>your point.
Warriors of Kerensky breaks down the Clan population,
and gives totals that match up with the sum populations
of all 30-something Clan home worlds. So 110,500 DOES
represent the total warrior population of ALL clans,
not just one. I don't have the page numbers handy.
>I mean...if those number are right, the logistics are indeed horrible.
>I mean, I don't even see the Inner Sphere's worry then. Because they
>so overwhelm them with numbers the Clans were no serious threat, ever.
Well...keep in mind, in 3025, each of the Great Houses
had an average of 100 mech regiments: ~10,000 mechwarriors
each, ~50,000 total. Then there was about 5x as many
conventional units, which had proportionally larger manpower
requirements than a mech regiment (3-5 crewman per tank,
7 infantry per squad, etc.)
In terms of aggregate population, the Inner Sphere should
never, ever fear the Clans. In terms of immediately
available military firepower...that's another issue.
The Clans are the perfect villain to have a decent
chance of defeating the Inner Sphere's militaries.
They were very poorly designed to seize and hold ground,
but so are the all-conquering FedCom armies of the 4th
Succession War. Though the FC has the population to
produce an adequate garrison force...
>Also, could they even man all those warships and dropships
>with only that many people?
Techs. I'm pretty certain most Clan dropships/warships
are crewed by techs. They're just battle taxis for the
"real" warriors to Clan thinking, so there's no harm
in crewing those ships with techs. Heck, dropships were
non-combatants to the Clans in 3050...
>That number, even if it is from FASA, does not sound right at all to
>me. If it is from them, then somebody in the editor's department
>wasn't doing their job, because it works against all the fiction. Not
>to mention the only limit on the number of warriors the Clans can have
>is how many they can put in a vat. I would think they could crank out
>scores of warriors, IF they wanted to.
2 limits: How many they can crank out of vats, and how many
they can train.
It takes ~15 years to get a minimally trained Clan warrior.
That is an enormous investment in time and effort. Despite
the vats, the Clans still only have 1.4 billion or so
subjects as of 3050 - I have two cites (Kuritan Sourcebook
& MW 3rd edition) giving the Inner Sphere a THOUSAND times
that population.
If I had a 1000:1 population advantage, I'd go for
"6 weeks of boot camp and 2 years of 'Mechs/fighters/
tanks/rifles for Dummies'." Heck, if I just wanted
a few hundred thousand guerilla soldiers that could
blend into the local populous, 6 weeks of boot camp
should be plenty.
>>Additionally, many Clans move in their merchants, etc to the
>>Inner Sphere. That builds ties, etc to the conquered populace.
>
>Sounds a lot like the "win their hearts and minds" thing
>the US tried in Vietnam. That didn't work on the South
>Vietnamese, and they started as our allies. The Clans
>won't necessarily have that advantage.
>For the most part, the Clans have their source of material, labor,
>etc. back home.
Um. Well, for one, that's a rather long supply line.
Spatial distances aside, it's about 15-20 weeks in one
direction. It was a significant policy change during
the invasion that the invading Clans (see: Return of
Kerensky trilogy) started plundering the conquered
worlds for supplies like uniforms and utility vehicles.
I think there are some fairly clear references some
of the Crusader Clans were a little rough on their
new subject planets, like the Falcons and Jaguars.
Aren't the Falcons running into economic problems with
their Inner Sphere planets for just this reason?
>Does anyone know anything about Clan tax policies? If
>the Clans basically eliminated all the interstellar nation
>produced taxes, I would think that would please the locals.
>"Well, instead of paying 15% to the Archon, we pay 1% "Garrison
>Maintenance". Hmm...."
Bear with me on this.
As an exercise for the reader, how many C-bills would you
need per person on a planet of 1 billion people to support
a garrison of 10,000 mechs and mechwarriors, the entire
3025 mech TO&E of a typical Great House?
If you purchased 10% of those mechs a year (over
a decade), and bought only 25 million C-bill 3050-era
XL-powered 100-ton assault mechs, each person on the planet
would need to cough up 25 C-bills a year for procurement.
Or 250 C-bills (no more than 1 month's pay) to pay for all
those mechs in one year.
10,000 mechwarriors...no, no let's look at the entire
bloated 3025-era Lyran Commonwealth's military of
10 million "soldiers" (read: 99.99% bureaucrats; figure
of 10 million is from House Steiner Sourcebook).
Sticking to the planet with 1 billion people on it,
and figuring those lean & mean desk jockeys make as
much as the average citizen of a decently advanced
world, then the average citizen needs to contribute
1% of her salary to cover the military's payroll.
Then there's military infrastructure, maintenance,
supplies and R&D, but I think a single planet of 1
billion people can afford to support an entire
Great House's military. Of course, no Inner Sphere
planet could CREATE all the weaponry or that entire
military in a year, or even ten years...but it
seems it only takes 1 planet (of hundreds per
Great House) to support a Great House's military.
What's my point?
My point is: if a planetary population is paying
15% of its wages as taxes, most of the taxes are
NOT supporting the military.
Ergo, if the Clans slash the tax base of a planet
to 1% from 15%, a lot of well-liked government
services are going to disappear.
And therefore, I don't think tax cuts aret really
a card the Clans can wave at the captive populous
to make them happy.
>Even then, the Clans have alot of technology to offer. They have alot
>in the way of drugs, etc. and the MechWarrior material we have pretty
>much shows that if you loose a limb they just grow you a new one.
As I recall, one of the core elements of the US "Hearts
and Minds" thing in Vietnam was providing decent medical
services to the South Vietnamese. Certainly much better
than what Vietnam could afford on its own.
>>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>>down.
>
>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>computers it's coming from?
>
>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>servers across the planet?
>You're making the assumption that the origin is hidden.
Not really. I'm assuming the Clans don't have the
manpower to hunt down a lot of web-TV stations. Or
more specifically, web servers.
How many local TV stations (studios) do you think
there are in the US, pop. 281 million?
>Sure there's stuff like pirate signals, etc, but it's not on the kind
>of professional level that you present.
Professional equipment? It could probably have been done
in a nice apartment (for the good furniture), with a
digital video camera and Mac computer today. And a decently
skilled video editor, of course.
(And, of course, the spy camera footage.)
The only "professional" equipment would be access to
big-name video distributers, which the authority alone
of a major network could allow.
If a 31st Century NBC had its choice studio trashed by Clan
warriors, I'd still bet it could turn out a reasonable program
(particularly an interview, which doesn't need a formal
studio setting) with:
1) a company credit card
2) a computer with video editing software
3) a video editor, some geek who's happy to volunteer
his talents (and probably has a pretty good item 2
at home to replace the million-dollar studio systems)
4) a nice setting for the interview (condo rented
via item 1)
5) a few items of furniture to make the setting
perfect - are the Clans cracking down on furniture
stores?
6) absent electronic items (digital video camera,
microphones, etc.) - which should be available unless
the Clans blew up every Best Buy and Radio Shack
7) Access to NBC's webserver(s), anonymous racks of
computer gear in some commercial server site...or
an alternate that would be happy to carry NBC's
program (it's affiliates or fellow patriotic news
agencies, like Future-ABC, Future-CBS, or PNN)
>And even if they want to go underground and support the local
>populace, you're assuming Peter Jennings wants to go on the
>lamb.
Who needs Peter Jennings? Get that young staffer who
dreams of being an anchor one day. Preface your programs
with, "And due to the cold realities of this invasion,
Peter Jennings was unable to get to this makeshift studio
tonight." That's if you want to be polite to Peter Jennings.
"Peter Jennings and the rest of the senior staff didn't
feel like risking their lives to give you the news tonight,
so here I am. Bear with me, I was a staffer until yesterday."
>
>>I mean, there
>>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
>
>And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
>to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
>buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
>diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
>going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
>
>How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
>storms into your government office, barks out some
>orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
>porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
>orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
>going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
>the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
>government workers just go home and take paid leave for
>a few months while the invaders are around?
>
>Why would they do that?
>The average person is not that self-less.
>Clan Star Colonel: Well, Prime Minister Chavez, we want you to
>continue running your government as you did before we arrived.
Of course I wouldn't expect bravery from a civilian. I
wouldn't expect someone in the immediate presence of a
Clan warrior to show any bravery. I'd expect PM Chavez in
your example below to immediately relay any order the Clan
warriors had to her underlings.
>We know may not like us, but you do not have to like us.
>Just do as we ask, and we will not be asking much at all.
Sounds like the words of rapist, actually. But the
Clanners are the ones with the big guns, so what're
you going to do?
>Simply try and keep the local population in line and assist us
>in controlling rebellion.
And I'd expect PM Chavez to give orders to suppress the
rebels. Now tell me, does PM Chavez run out and arrest
rebels herself?
Or does she rely on the FBI-equivalent, military-equivalent,
and CIA-equivalent to do this? Thousands, even millions
of people? People who aren't in the presence of Clan guns
and probably won't even see Clan warriors during the whole
invasion, except on TV?
FBI Big Boss: "Hey, we got another order from Ms. Vichy.
'Find rebels and arrest them.' Okay, boys, go investigate
any rebel evildoings you hear about. We need to crack
down on this scum."
FBI Agents: "Geez, boss, there were dozens yesterday alone.
Where should we start?"
FBI Big Boss: "Any of them. No rebel act is too small to
escape our notice. I saw anti-Clan graffiti on the way
to work. I want full DNA work ups, finger prints, every
forensic detail of the perps. Assign 2 teams to this. Finding
and investigating it what we do best. This investigation
of such an anonymous crime will take a LOT of manpower
and a LOT of time. We'll show the Clanners we investigate
things RIGHT around here."
FBI Agent 1: "Wouldn't all that footwork give the perps
a lot of advance warning?"
FBI Big Boss: "Probably. They might hear about all our
questioning - and I'm sure we'll need thousands of
interviews to find these bastards - and they might
run before we can alert the local police to their
whereabouts. Now, I heard about a shooting of a Clan
warrior the other day. We'll clearly need FIVE teams
of agents on that one..."
Of course, I don't expect the FBI-equivalent to discuss
matters of clearly. Any bureaucrat knows about 'plausible
deniability' in intra-office communications. But it isn't
hard for a big bureaucracy to work hard on orders without
getting anything done.
For every token arrest of a big name guerilla, how
many tracks can an FBI-equivalent cover? Do you think
the Clans would ever notice unless they had a LOT
of warriors and techs watching over the shoulders of
the FBI-equiv agents?
>Minister Chavez: And what if I don't help you?
>Star Colonel: Then you will be replaced. It would be in your best
>interests to help us though. We will improve life for your people, and
>we will make sure that you personally benefit from cooperation.
>President Chavez: I refuse to do anything for a bunch of scum sucking
>rat bastards like you.
Hey, PM's that dumb NEED to be replaced. Toadying
politicians are the first line of deniability for
an insurgency.
"See? The government is cooperating whole heartedly.
The PM passes along every order you give."
>>The one problem with your argument is you're assuming they WANT to
>>overthrow the Clans
>
>A Lyran/FC or FRR planet is pretty good about
>civil rights. Often, the planets are allowed to pretty
>much set up their own governments. No comment on the Combine.
>Republics, democracies, etc. seem pretty common in Lyran
>space, and I don't recall the FRR tolerating their
>leadership getting uppity. This does mean most FC and FRR
>planets can chose their own local, planetary governments.
>The government they have is one they've chosen.
>
>That government isn't the one supplanted by the Clans. The Clans
>supplant the interstellar government. The local planetary government
>is intact.
OUTSTANDING! The more intact the local government is,
the more screwed the Clans are. Nothing helps an
insurgency like the active aid of a government.
>And if I was living in 3063, I would be damn glad NOT to be part of
>the Lyran Alliance (considering it's going to hell in a handbag).
This line of question was centering on the early invasion,
in 3050-3051 when it was GOOD to live in the FedCom.
>I find the numbers hard to swallow. I think if you're right, then
>someone goofed somewhere. Because it doesn't add up.
I can have page #'s for you tonight, if you're
interested, or wholesale quotes. E-mail me at
cra...@hotmail.com.
>And, like I said, if it was that easy to overthrow the
>Clans, in 10 years+, it should have happened a few times.
Of course, during the Succession Wars, large scale
conquests should be damn well impossible, too. My
only conclusion is that planetary governments have
been well-trained to bend over when a new master
arrives.
Mike Miller, MatE
Sola...@aol.com
<cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Which station of all the hundreds of local affiliates,
>and where is it? Again, you run into manpower issues.
>For every station you "shut down" (did you kill all
>the workers, or let them run home to put out internet
>posts with all the juicey details intended for the
>TV "broadcast"?), there are another dozen affiliates.
>
A planet with hundreds of affiliates. And where do all these affiliates get
their newsfeed from. ONE PLACE. You cut the feed off at the source. No
problem. How long do you think NBC would be on the air if you took out the
main studios/HQ in NYC? Take out the HQ, no news feed.
>>Or take over the TV stations.
>
See above.
>How? They have a few hundred warriors to monitor at
>least as many TV stations, to say nothing of websites.
>
As I said else where, they have computers to do all that stuff. The
monitoring tech mostly exists today and is within easy grasp of the Clans.
>>Or just overwhelm the signal with one of your own.
>
>"Overwhelm" a fiber optic signal? I'm sure one
>Guardian ECM suite can shut down the broadcast
>TV and radio stations in a city, but I doubt they'll
>do much for the 1000 cable channels.
>
Oh, your talking about cable. Hmm. Lets see/ Don't cable stations get thier
feed from a limited number of sources? And don't most cable services receive
their feed from satellites? A single small target.
>>Not to mention. "We are the TRUE descendant of the Star League!"
>>Remember almost everyone in the IS still has a very high opinion
>>of that era.
>
>The intent of the government's propaganda campaign: point
>out that the Clans act more like Amaris than the Star
>League. That should take the wind out of anyone infatuated
>with the Clans as the "Return of Kerensky." A few 'incidents'
>blown out of proportion like the Boston Massacre and you've
>got a full scale uprising on your hand. It worked in 1776,
>and the British seem nicer than the Clans. :)
>
That's because the British where acting like pompous idiots. And even WITH
the British acting so stupid, only about 33% actively supported the war. AND
about 33% still supported the British. (The other 33% didn't care much either
way) The Clans (Other than the Smoked Kitties) didn't have any of those
massacres for a govt to exploit.
>>The net could also be their greatest tool also. Clan computer
>>tech is much more advanced that that of the IS.
>
>"Goddamit, I can't get to the game server, or my favorite
>porn site! I keep getting redirected to this 'We are the
>Clans, We are your friends' hokey-ass website! Gawd,
>what loser of a webpage designer put this thing together?
>Don't they know anything about target demographics?"
>
>Do Clan technicians have much experience with shaping
>propaganda to a target demographic? Do they even have
>social scientists?
>
Read pages 49 and 50 and 61 and 62 of Warriors of Kerensky. They most
certainly do. Propaganda is all over the places in the Clans.
>I don't think the Clans have very much experience at
>all with filtering programs that would NOT piss off
>a majority of web users. I suspect they're pretty
>used to just using caste and ID's to keep people out
>of parts of the Chatterweb where they don't belong.
>
Why don't you look it up? Their search engines are so good just the fear of
them is enough to keep people in line most of the time. But when they do look
it is very efficient.
>>They are able to add a few little programs to watch
>>who is doing what. And some of the Clans have spent
>>a LOT of time working on Internets. (The Chatterweb)
>
>An entirely different sort of internet where censorship
>is a given and the military has the final say. Monitoring
>programs? Sure. Could they keep the programs on the
>servers before native techs purge that server or unhook
>the Clan hardware Clan techs bolted on? Again, you're
>hitting a manpower limitation.
>
All they need is one server (they would probably install their own and keep
it running) As for the programs they can be installed and the freebirths
would not even know they are there.
>The Clan techs can't travel unescorted, so the number
>of servers that can be visited is rather limited.
>
As I said all you need in one hooked into the system to monitor it.
>
>>How does a person in Europe take down computers in the USA?
>>They hack it. :)
>
>And that damage lasts...days? Hours? And does not make
>the Clans look any better in the eyes in the natives?
>
They don't have to take it down. Just find it. Then the local police get to
do the job.
>
>There are many different computer skills. Ability to massively
>encrypt files does not denote the ability to censor web
>traffic. Super powerful computers and outstanding ability
>to maintain them does not denote good hacking talents.
>
Sorry. But this is incorrect. Computer science is like any other. Back befor
WW1 the Germans became very good in the chemistry of making dyes. When war
came the quickly turned that knowledge to making things like munitions. Also
the Clans have been working on these programs for a long time for back in the
Clan homewards.
>>
>>Oh a nice little virus could do the job if used properly.
>
>Right, right. Just like MS Outlook viruses *always* bring
>down *every* MS Outlook user across the planet. Assuming
>it works, the virus will work the first time.
>
Nope you just have the virus go in and delete the information you want it to.
The people running the servers may not even know they had been attacked until
they tried accessing the information.
>And since when did Clan techs suddenly become masters of
>foreign computer technology ("Windows 2340? WTF kind of
>operating system is that?") that's probably 5 to 8
>centuries out of date compared to the systems they
>trained on. Do you think the Melissa virus would run
>on ENIAC? Do you think someone who trained on the latest
>Pentium IV's and RISC processors and writes viruses for
>Linux and Windows could even write a virus for ENIAC?
>
Funny how they can be 5 to 8 hundred years out of date when the Clans have
only been around 250 or so years. :) Also it is a poor comparison. ENIAC was
not designed to interface with other system. The only way you could put a
virus into it would be to go and manually install it. And lastly after about
1000 years the standards for computers would pretty much be the same. Or at
least communication protocols would be standard.
>>Haven't you ever heard of search engines? They program their
>>computers to do the work for them. (Search the entire net for
>>these words and phrases used in this particular order.) Several
>>major gov's in the world are already doing this.
>
>Manpower limitation:
>
>"Yes, Star Commander! We have found evidence of dissident
>speaches against the Clans on the internet! We even have
>the real world addresses of every one of them!"
>
>"Excellent, excellent. Where are these cowardly surats?"
>"Which ones?"
>"Well, all of them."
>"The entire compiled list is over there. The 10cm 3-ring binders."
>"Which binder? There must be 30."
>"32, actually. We found that 27,098,343 specifically anti-Clan
>messages were made on this planet's internet in the past week.
>Those binders have the addresses of 112,783 who triggered our
>search engine's criteria for apparently intending serious harm
>against our people."
>
Riiiiiiiiight. That is a piss poor set up of the search parameters.
>And how long do those search engines work when the operators
>of the servers are probably trying to screw with the search
>engines? At least the governments have the cooperation of
>the server operators.
>
Nope. The governments are not getting help form the server operators. They
just put in their own access and go from there. The population didn't even
know they where being spied until someone in the govt let the cat out of the
bag. Also in case you had not realized this. In most places the local govts
followed the orders of the Clans. Why? The area where they came is a border
area and has changed hands a number of time in the past. The attitude of the
govt and population is "Yea the Clans are here this month. Stiener/Kurita/FFR
will be here in here after that. Big deal. Unless they start screwing with
me, I don't care who "rules" the planet."
>>Guerillas have to be supported by a large part of the population.
>>If the population is apathetic, few guerillas.
>
>Which is the point of the propaganda.
>
Laugh. In order to produce propaganda you have to have widespread supporters.
If there is no wide spread support, there is no propaganda. You are trying to
get a chicken here without the egg. You are presupposing an instant dislike
of the Clans. In most places this did not exist.
>>If the Clans don't make to many waves and run roughshod over
>>the population, they really won't care what the Clans do. Rebellion fizzles
>>out.
>
>Hmm. Sort of like the Japanese in WWII, right? They only
>attacked US military targets and were just looking for
>the US to acknowledge Japanese superiority in the Pacific.
>Maybe get the oil trade going again. John Q. Public didn't
>support a guerilla war against the Japanese at all - he
>went and joined the Marines.
>
No parallel between the attitude of the US public and the attitude of the
border population of the Successor states. Your statement does not work.
>Why would you think any public would just stand for having
>a foreigner invader launch a sneak attack, destroy your
>military bases, and then accept the government bowing to
>the invaders?
>
In the Successor States after 300+ years of war that is EXACTLY what happens
much of the time. (Outside of the CC that is)
>Would the Japanese have really been cruel masters? Wouldn't
>they have been happy with just getting the surrender of
>the local governments and the share of local resources they
>wanted? Why did the locals get so agitated?
>
Again no there is no equal comparison. The people of the Successor states are
not the people of the US in the 40's.
>>
>>They DO have better health facilities
>
>I'd expect the difference between 23rd Century IS
>medical tech and 31st Century Clan medical technology
>to be the number of exotic diseases than can cure.
>
And how much would you like it if the plague that is killing your mother
could be cured by the Clans and not a the local hospital? All of a sudden the
Clans might not look so bad.
>What common ailments are there that 23rd century medtech
>can't cure that 31st century medtech can?
>
Ask the Turians about the Brisbane Virus. >:)
>>and can offer one thing the IS tends to be short of. Stability.
>>You would not believe how many people would sell their freedom
>>for peace and stability.
>
>I'm in utter disagreement here. The Clans invaded (war, not
>peace), enraged the remainder of the Great House the planet
>belonged to (so there will be more war when the House
>attempts to clear off the planet, not peace), disrupted
>centuries old systems of government (aren't the Houses all
>about 3 times as old as the Clans? Now THAT'S stability),
>and INVADED. Where is their peace and stability?
>
And what peace have the Houses given the IS in these peoples lifetimes? The
4th Succession War. The War of 39, the Ronin Wars, pirates attacking, raids
and so forth With civilians getting caught in the cross fire. With the Clans,
they do their fighting AWAY from the people. They probably don't even know
there is a trial of some sort going on until its over. And as for people
giving up freedom for stability here is a personal example. A friend of mine
went to Germany for a couple of weeks. And loved how it was so crime free.
But you better not do anything to cross the police. The idea of police abuse
did not exist there. A cop could do most anything they wanted to you and no
one would care. Or go back to Italy in the 30's. The only time the Mafia was
ever controlled in Italy was because the government clamped down HARD. And
the people didn't make much of a fuss. People can act like sheep in the face
of authority.
>Again, I disagree. When a few central leaders are controlled
>at gunpoint, it's easy for the rest of the government to find
>replacements. Does the majority of the government even need
>central authority figures? When was the last time the President
>cut a social security check, or authorized every case the
>FBI handled in a month?
>
WHY do you insist and saying "at gun point". The Clans don't have to do it
that way. The local governments are USED to having an invader come in and
take over. They don't have to hold a gun to anyones head. The leadership
probably went to the Clans and said "Alright your the boss, what do you
want?" And unless there is something real objectionable, they do it.
>>
>>It would be more like how long before the planet went to hell
>>and the population begged the Clans to help.
>
>What parts of the government do you think the Clans would
>be interested in?
>
>Would the Clans every walk into a local judge's office,
>or would they stick to the Supreme Court?
>Would the Clans frequently give orders to the welfare
>department?
>Would the Clans try to run the education department?
>How about the EPA equivalent?
>The Energy department?
>
>99.99% of the government would never be bothered by the
>Clans, and thus there's little risk of the government
>"going to hell". The only part they would bother with
>would be the small fraction that shores up their problems
>governing the planet: the FBI-equivalent to find guerillas,
>the military to suppress guerillas, and...what else?
>
Since the Clans would never bother much of the local govt why would it
"rebel" and not do their jobs? Simple, the govt would NOT cause problems. You
have shot down your own point.
>So what if the FBI closes shop for a few months? The
>local police have more work to do. It's not going to
>send the planet into total anarchy.
>
And who will suffer. The general population. Not the Clans. And the whole
idea of massive public support goes out he the window. No rebellion.
>
>Yes, the Clans leave the populations and governments alone,
>and that's perfect for a rebellion.
>
But the government is being left alone to do the job of running the planet.
And most governments DID do just that. There job before the Clans was to run
the planet, their job AFTER the Clans was to run the planet. So if there was
a rebellion against the Clans would Also be a rebellion against the local
govt!
>"Leaving the government alone" = "no control."
>
Since the local govt is doing its job of running the planet, who is going to
rebel? Against what? Against who? WHY should they rebel? The Clans have not
done anything other than destroy a military unit that was sent by some
distant House overlord. Just as it happened in their fathers time. Big deal.
>While El Presidenta and the Congress are held at gun point
>by Elementals and signing order after order that the rest
>of the government ignores, the military is free to set up
>training camps (secretly, of course) and enlist thousands
>of new recruits or give instruction on "how to be a guerilla
>soldier."
>
>The police are free to ignore guerilla activity because
>the Clan overlords are leaving them alone, and the bulk
>of the government can keep functioning (and thus keep
>the planet running) like nothing was wrong. By leaving
>the government mostly alone, the Clans are ensuring a
>steady stream of anti-Clan propaganda can be generated
>and resistance can continue.
>
That's making the very wrong assumption that the police will all of a sudden
stop doing their jobs. Most of the time this will not happen. The job is to
hunt criminals. And rebels are criminals. Again you assume their is this
predisposition to resist the Clans. This predisposition does not exist in
most places.
>
>By leaving the government alone to do its own thing, you
>are giving it leave to resist the invaders with just about
>every asset it has - except for the few that the invaders
>keep an eye on.
But the problem is the government will NOT resist. Their job is running the
planet. It is NOT fighting a war of rebellion. Say the mayor of your city
HATES the Governor of the state. Is he/she going to use the cities resources
to set up a war of rebellion? Hell no. Is he/she going to allow the public to
try to assassinate the Governor when he arrives to visit? Again, no. People
most of the time will "do their jobs" even if they don't like it. And for the
most part the Clans didn't do anything to piss anyone off. Please read pages
41 and 42 of WoK. sm
Mike Miller
>It4s not the Clan warriors' duty to shut down TV stations or servers -
they
>are of the warrior caste and not some tested down police-men. The planetary
>police can handle it. And planetary police *will* handle it because the
>police chief has a job to lose. And because the planetary ruler has a (well
>paid?) job to lose as well. And because people want their life to go on
>undisturbed. They don4t need bombs blowing up around them and nutty
>terrorists who disrupt their lives. 200+ years of constant warfare can
start
>getting on your nerves.
That's a rather one-side view of the matter. A police chief or
planetary leader is caught between a rock and a hard place.
The hard place:
*Clans, who will kill or fire them if they fail or resist.
*Clans, who can offer a raise and an "attaboy" pat on the back.
*Clans, who number a few hundred on planet.
The rock:
*The local population, who will kill or fire traitors.
*The local population, who can offer a raise, adulation, and treatment
as a hero for resisting the invaders.
*The local population, who may number in the billions.
*Their own underlings, who don't receive nearly the attention from
the Clans as the leader, and thus can much more readily ignore,
'lose', screw up, or draw out any Clan order because they won't
take the heat. Their boss does.
Sucks to be a local leader in a Clan invasion, but you don't
need much aid from them to kill a few hundred invaders.
Let me phrase the situation this way:
500 Nazis takeover New York City. They order all resistance
members be rounded up.
The NYPD numbers, IIRC, 11,000. How many years did it take
them to lower the murder rate from 2200 per year to 1000 per
year? 15? 20? And they did this with the cooperation of the
people and an intent to 'protect and serve.'
How long do you think it would take them to 'obey' the
Nazi invaders and round up every resistance member?
Maybe Nazis are a bad example. They're pretty darn mean
guys, if I recall my History channel correctly. The Clans,
of course, offer stability, peace, and great medical
technology (that's why a Clan laborer has an average
lifespan of ~50 years, right?)
So let's replace 500 Nazi's with 500 militaristic Canadians
(I know they exist - I had one as a roommate one quarter in
college. Maple leaf tattoo and all.) They bring health care,
gun control, low crime rates, and social services that all
New Yorkers will clearly love, because it's so much better
than what the US offers NYC.
Peace and prosperity are just around the corner, so NYC's
populous won't lift a hand against a few hundred invaders
in their midst, will they? And the NYPD will immediately
leap to aid the invaders in any manner possible, right?
To rephrase that, how hard did the Japanese and Germans
fight to protect their corrupt and evil regimes from the
Allies who liberated them and brought them baseball and
apple pie?
I really don't think the Clans are offering enough for anyone
to just roll over, but that seems to be the standard reaction
of any but a handful of Inner Sphere planets to invasion. I
have to say I'm a little baffled by it.
Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller
>In article <F57hx27kBnccY...@hotmail.com>, Michael Miller
><cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>Which station of all the hundreds of local affiliates,
>>and where is it? Again, you run into manpower issues.
>>For every station you "shut down" (did you kill all
>>the workers, or let them run home to put out internet
>>posts with all the juicey details intended for the
>>TV "broadcast"?), there are another dozen affiliates.
>
>A planet with hundreds of affiliates. And where do all these affiliates get
>their newsfeed from. ONE PLACE. You cut the feed off at the source. No
>problem. How long do you think NBC would be on the air if you took out the
>main studios/HQ in NYC? Take out the HQ, no news feed.
Right, of course. They take out the head studio. Then an
affiliate provides a back up studio and newsfeed.
I'm quite aware of the vulnerability of a newstations
to the Clans. I'm pointing out the inherent redundancy
in the system - there's always another that can take
over the lead position.
>As I said else where, they have computers to do all that stuff.
>The monitoring tech mostly exists today and is within easy
>grasp of the Clans.
Alright. So what?
How long do you think it will take for an irritated
server manager to cut out the Clan techs' feeds to
the internet? There's always a back up, of course, but
there's a helluva lot more network adminstrators than
there Clan techs.
I address your "local police will arrest them" further
on.
>>Not to mention. "We are the TRUE descendant of the Star League!"
>>Remember almost everyone in the IS still has a very high opinion
>>of that era.
>
>The intent of the government's propaganda campaign: point
>out that the Clans act more like Amaris than the Star
>League. That should take the wind out of anyone infatuated
>with the Clans as the "Return of Kerensky." A few 'incidents'
>blown out of proportion like the Boston Massacre and you've
>got a full scale uprising on your hand. It worked in 1776,
>and the British seem nicer than the Clans. :)
>
>That's because the British where acting like pompous idiots.
And the Clans are past masters of democracy and treating
the laborer cast kindly?
>And even WITH
>the British acting so stupid, only about 33% actively supported the war.
AND
>about 33% still supported the British.
The colonial rebels, OTOH, we're rebelling from the British,
not repelling invading, pillaging, raping British hordes.
It takes some motivation to turn against the mother country.
OTOH, it takes somewhat less motivation to turn against
invaders.
>The Clans (Other than the Smoked Kitties) didn't have any of those
>massacres for a govt to exploit.
And the guerillas won't unintentionally generate massacres
when the Clan warriors starting executing anyone vaguely
suspected of helping the guerillas?
>Read pages 49 and 50 and 61 and 62 of Warriors of Kerensky. They most
>certainly do. Propaganda is all over the places in the Clans.
Yes, I recall propaganda was common in the Clans, but
not particularly subtle. It was also targeted for a captive
audiance.
>Why don't you look it up? Their search engines are so good just the fear of
>them is enough to keep people in line most of the time. But when they do
look
>it is very efficient.
Alright. Do those Chatterweb search engines work well with
the key word indices and operating systems of Planet X's
internet?
And if they do, so what? They found the dissident or
hacker. Is a point of Elementals going to be dispatched
to arrest him?
>All they need is one server (they would probably install their own and keep
>it running) As for the programs they can be installed and the freebirths
>would not even know they are there.
How does one server magically give them access to the
entire internet? All the world's internet traffic doesn't
pass through one server.
As for not knowing software is there...fine.
>
>>There are many different computer skills. Ability to massively
>>encrypt files does not denote the ability to censor web
>>traffic. Super powerful computers and outstanding ability
>>to maintain them does not denote good hacking talents.
>
>Sorry. But this is incorrect. Computer science is like any other.
I'm sorry, it is correct. A person experienced with programming
Unix is not a master of programming in a Windows environment
unless he also spent a lot of time programming in a Windows
environment.
Clan Techs that are masters of programming in the Clan
operating system and hacking the Chatterweb are going to
be fish out of water on Inner Sphere computers. They
won't know the back doors, the loop holes, or the
security protocols.
Can you show me any fresh comp sci computer graduate
who could hack into the first IBM digital computers?
>>
>>Oh a nice little virus could do the job if used properly.
>
>Right, right. Just like MS Outlook viruses *always* bring
>down *every* MS Outlook user across the planet. Assuming
>it works, the virus will work the first time.
>
>Nope you just have the virus go in and delete the information you want it
to.
>The people running the servers may not even know they had been attacked
until
>they tried accessing the information.
"Just have the virus go in..."
1) You need to get the virus to run, first. The string of bits
that make up a virus for a Windows computer is not the same string
of 0s and 1s that make up a Linux virus that does the same thing,
nor is it the same group of bits that would have the same effect
on a Mac. What is a CPU-trashing, hard drive-crashing, lean mean
virus for Windows is garbage to Linux and MacOS.
1a) Again, the Clan techs may have killer viruses and hacking apps
for Clan computers, but that doesn't mean squat to Inner Sphere
computers. The algorithm for the killer Clan computer viruses
might not even work on Inner Sphere operating systems, let alone
the actual software.
2) A similar problem occurs when the Clan techs manage to get
the virus to run in an Inner Sphere OS environment and start
hunting politically upsetting files. Do the Clan techs know
Inner Sphere file formats? What if a virus in search the bytes
that in Clan file formats stands for "the ilKhan rapes monkeys"
ends up deleting the string of bytes that stands for "turn up
the heart medication for Patient 7" in the Inner Sphere operating
system?
And I'd suspect deleted files would stand out very quickly.
Don't most internet file transfer systems confirm file
transfer success or failure? And certainly someone who tried
to download that neat-o clip his bud told him about where the
Clan dude's doin' the donkey is going to notice when he
doesn't get the video.
>Also it is a poor comparison. ENIAC was
>not designed to interface with other system. The only way you could put a
>virus into it would be to go and manually install it. And lastly after
about
>1000 years the standards for computers would pretty much be the same. Or at
>least communication protocols would be standard.
Have the Inner Sphere and Clan computer geeks been sharing
development files for the past 250 years?
I really doubt there's too much standardization. Look up
cell phones in Mechwarrior 3 - they don't work on every
planet.
Further, communication protocols evolve with the technology.
Do you think my 80286, 12MHz Tandy with DOS 3.0 could
run MS Internet Explorer 5.0 and read .jpg files?
Given the fluctuating level of technology in the Inner
Sphere and extensive reversion to pre-Star League computer
technology, no, I wouldn't think Inner Sphere computers
would be even using Star League-era "standard" protocols.
I doubt paranoid societies like the Combine and Confederation
would like their computers easily interface with those from
neighboring nations.
Finally, the Succession Wars have made interstellar
transport and communication erratic. Each bombed out
planet probably rebuilt its IT infrastructure on its,
subject to what sort of technology it was able to
recover.
>>Haven't you ever heard of search engines? They program their
>>computers to do the work for them. (Search the entire net for
>>these words and phrases used in this particular order.) Several
>>major gov's in the world are already doing this.
>
>Manpower limitation:
>
>"Yes, Star Commander! We have found evidence of dissident
>speaches against the Clans on the internet! We even have
>the real world addresses of every one of them!"
>
>"Excellent, excellent. Where are these cowardly surats?"
>"Which ones?"
>"Well, all of them."
>"The entire compiled list is over there. The 10cm 3-ring binders."
>"Which binder? There must be 30."
>>"32, actually. We found that 27,098,343 specifically anti-Clan
>>messages were made on this planet's internet in the past week.
>>Those binders have the addresses of 112,783 who triggered our
>>search engine's criteria for apparently intending serious harm
>>against our people."
>
>Riiiiiiiiight. That is a piss poor set up of the search parameters.
Or a lot of angry people. It's a population of 1 billion+ we're
talking about.
And only the incompetent guerillas would fire e-mails back
and forth to the effect of "Hey, we're going to do a drive-by
of the Clan garrison on Fifth and Main. Let's get together at
the Stuffer Shack on West street at 3pm today talk about it."
The search engines would only catch idiot guerillas and people
saying nasty things about the Clans. Are they going to do
anything about angry people? Hell, I'd probably change my .sig
to include something nasty about the Clans.
>In most places the local govts followed the orders of the Clans. Why? The
>area where they came is a border area and has changed hands a number of
time
>in the past.
OTOH, some were quite fired up, especially the planets in the FRR
where they were rather happy with their independence from the Combine.
OTOH pt2, would you run a guerilla campaign on a planet of apathetic
people?
As I've said, I do know some planets even welcomed the Clans.
>>If the Clans don't make to many waves and run roughshod over
>>the population, they really won't care what the Clans do. Rebellion
fizzles
>>out.
>
>Hmm. Sort of like the Japanese in WWII, right? They only
>attacked US military targets and were just looking for
>the US to acknowledge Japanese superiority in the Pacific.
>Maybe get the oil trade going again. John Q. Public didn't
>support a guerilla war against the Japanese at all - he
>went and joined the Marines.
>
>No parallel between the attitude of the US public and the attitude of the
>border population of the Successor states. Your statement does not work.
Your statement, in turn, is too universal. The Clans did not
only conquer border populations, and some remained fiercely
patriotic.
>>
>>They DO have better health facilities
>
>I'd expect the difference between 23rd Century IS
>medical tech and 31st Century Clan medical technology
>to be the number of exotic diseases than can cure.
>
>And how much would you like it if the plague that is killing your mother
>could be cured by the Clans and not a the local hospital? All of a sudden
the
>Clans might not look so bad.
What plague? Did the Clans release a biological weapon?
Just how often are entire planets wracked with incurable
diseases in BT, and what the chances that the Clan arrival
will coincide with the plague getting out of control on
a patriotic, 1 billion+ population planet?
>I'm in utter disagreement here. The Clans invaded (war, not
>peace), enraged the remainder of the Great House the planet
>belonged to (so there will be more war when the House
>attempts to clear off the planet, not peace), disrupted
>centuries old systems of government (aren't the Houses all
>about 3 times as old as the Clans? Now THAT'S stability),
>and INVADED. Where is their peace and stability?
>
>And what peace have the Houses given the IS in these peoples lifetimes? The
>4th Succession War. The War of 39, the Ronin Wars, pirates attacking, raids
>and so forth With civilians getting caught in the cross fire. With the
Clans,
>they do their fighting AWAY from the people.
Yeah, real nice of them.
Sort of like a rapist that is polite enough to fight the
police in your front yard rather than in your house.
Yeah, I'd be REAL appreciative of the Clans' fighting style.
First they invade my planet, then they start censoring my
porn and e-mail (damn them! I really wanted to see the Khan
and the monkey!), and they're polite enough to fight away
from the city. Thank you, thank you Clan warriors.
No, I think I'd blame the invaders for the war, not my
government for fighting to defend my home only to have to
blown up. Even repeatedly. After all, my government's the
one that's trying to protect me and end the war, the
other guys are the bad guys. The TV told me so. :)
>>Again, I disagree. When a few central leaders are controlled
>>at gunpoint, it's easy for the rest of the government to find
>>replacements. Does the majority of the government even need
>>central authority figures? When was the last time the President
>>cut a social security check, or authorized every case the
>>FBI handled in a month?
>
>WHY do you insist and saying "at gun point".
Because, if the Clans otherwise leave the government alone,
there's nothing to stop the government at every level from
doing what it's done for 300 years: fight the invaders.
>The Clans don't have to do it that way.
Of course not.
>The local governments are USED to having an invader come in and
>take over. They don't have to hold a gun to anyones head.
Which is different from military conquest by any Great
House, where guns ARE held to heads. Do you think a DC
military governor of a newly claimed LC world would do
anything other execute dissidents and uncooperative government
workers? Even the 'enlightened' FedSuns and LC regularly
imprisoned rebels and stationed large garrisons on planets.
Look up Kittery in the Davion Sourcebook.
"The Clansmen are telling us to round up the dissidents."
"Oh, right, and if we don't, we get shot."
"Uh, no. They said 'pretty please.' Seriously."
"Um. So they won't shoot us for not arresting the dissidents?"
"Nope."
"They'll arrest us if we don't, right?"
"Nope."
"Wow, that's a lot better than the Combine. They shot anyone
irritating, or at least threw you in jail. Man, they were mean
Snakes. Hell, the Archons would have you thrown in jail for
not arresting people. Remember the Skye rebellion? Boy, did
Hansy have us cracking skulls under pain of firing or arrest
or what? Well, give me the order. I'll pass it along."
"Aren't you starting a week's leave in a few minutes?"
"Yup. Guess we won't arrest many dissidents this week."
If the Clans won't back up their orders with threats of
violence, I see no good reason for a local government to
obey - because the populous should damn well start hanging
leaders who obey the Clans without serious, obvious
coersion.
>Since the Clans would never bother much of the local govt why would it
>"rebel" and not do their jobs? Simple, the govt would NOT cause problems.
You
>have shot down your own point.
Not at all. See above. Left to its own devices and faced
with only a few hundred invaders, the government's in great
shape. Letting a few hundred invaders rule the planet when
it'd be so easy to stomp them (with irregular warfare)
that it'd be criminal of the government to let the invaders
stay in power.
>So what if the FBI closes shop for a few months? The
>local police have more work to do. It's not going to
>send the planet into total anarchy.
>
>And who will suffer. The general population. Not the Clans. And the whole
>idea of massive public support goes out he the window. No rebellion.
RIIGHT. The public will suffer enormously while a the
President and a few top FBI agents take a few months of
paid leave. You just said the Clans leave the government
alone - that means it's free to do its duty of repelling
the uniquely vulnerable invaders.
>That's making the very wrong assumption that the police will all of a
sudden
>stop doing their jobs. Most of the time this will not happen. The job is to
>hunt criminals. And rebels are criminals.
That's making the very wrong assumption that the police
view loyal soldiers and militiamen as criminals.
>And for the most part the Clans didn't do anything to piss anyone off.
Yes, they were very kind and gentle.
Do they stay kind and gentle when a few loyal soldiers with
rifles get up on a convenient water tower and cap a star of
trueborn mechwarriors playing tourist?
Let me guess, any reprisals were the fault of the soldiers
trying to defeat the invaders?
Mike Miller, MatE
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
>"Mike Miller" <mmi...@ddlomni.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:GFEIKELFFJJCHDADAG...@ddlomni.com...
> The NYPD numbers, IIRC, 11,000. How many years did it take
> them to lower the murder rate from 2200 per year to 1000 per
> year? 15? 20? And they did this with the cooperation of the
> people and an intent to 'protect and serve.'
>
> How long do you think it would take them to 'obey' the
> Nazi invaders and round up every resistance member?
The mongols conquered China. They didn´t have the manpower or the education
to replace every bureaucrat in China with a Mongol. Still they were in
control, why?
> Maybe Nazis are a bad example. They're pretty darn mean
> guys, if I recall my History channel correctly. The Clans,
> of course, offer stability, peace, and great medical
> technology (that's why a Clan laborer has an average
> lifespan of ~50 years, right?)
I wasn´t the one claiming that the Clans might share their advances with the
spoiled brats of the IS. I am claiming the Clans will let life go on as
usual. On a backwater world: You die at the age of 43 because of some
infected wound, on the high-tech world: You die at the age of 103.
> So let's replace 500 Nazi's with 500 militaristic Canadians
> (I know they exist - I had one as a roommate one quarter in
> college. Maple leaf tattoo and all.) They bring health care,
> gun control, low crime rates, and social services that all
> New Yorkers will clearly love, because it's so much better
> than what the US offers NYC.
>
> Peace and prosperity are just around the corner, so NYC's
> populous won't lift a hand against a few hundred invaders
> in their midst, will they? And the NYPD will immediately
> leap to aid the invaders in any manner possible, right?
Had you said LAPD I might have been tempted to answer "Yes" :)
The clou: the Clanners won´t round up members of the resistance because
there won´t be any widespread resistance. Why should you resist against the
continuation of the status quo ? Instead of the far-away archon you have the
even more far-away Clans but everything else is the same. Big deal. Feudal
societies aren´t well known for the patriotism within their populace.
> To rephrase that, how hard did the Japanese and Germans
> fight to protect their corrupt and evil regimes from the
> Allies who liberated them and brought them baseball and
> apple pie?
The difference between the Allies (and the Axies) and the Clans is that the
Clans try to wage war on soldiers only. The concept of terrorbombing is
rather unknown to them - if you except Turtle Bay. So there wouldn´t be much
anger be directed against the Clans. I am not sure whether the populace of
the 31st century is as nationalistic as some guys from the 40ies. War is
cool today when it comes on AFN, takes place far away and the good side
suffers only few losses but it isn´t cool after 200 years and hitting you
and your home several times in a lifespan.
> I really don't think the Clans are offering enough for anyone
> to just roll over, but that seems to be the standard reaction
> of any but a handful of Inner Sphere planets to invasion. I
> have to say I'm a little baffled by it.
TA first I was also astonished at the lack of resistance. But if you look
back in history: The biggest empires have succumbed to a surprisingly small
number of invaders. I mentioned the Mongols above. What about Alexander the
Great? He conquered the whole Persian empire and people simply "rolled
over". Both the Mongols and Alexander - and probably every other successful
invader of comparably advanced civilizations in history - were malking use
of the pre-existing administration and there wasn´t too widespread
resistance. And the Mongols *are* the prototype of the Clans.
> Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller
>In order to produce propaganda you have to have widespread supporters.
>If there is no wide spread support, there is no propaganda. You are trying
to
>get a chicken here without the egg. You are presupposing an instant dislike
>of the Clans. In most places this did not exist.
In most places - like the FRR - it took over a decade for
the FRR to realize that, gee, the Ghost Bears weren't so
bad. BT literature phrases the situation that it took a long
time for the invaded planets to get used to the Clans. I
wish I could remember where specifically - I'm guessing
the MW3E main book.
>But the problem is the government will NOT resist. Their job is
>running the planet. It is NOT fighting a war of rebellion.
No, it is fighting to protect the people it is sworn to
protect from enemies foreign and domestic. Exactly how many
nations don't bother including some wordage in their charters
and constitutions that they'll protect their people? Feudal
societies like the Inner Sphere are usually pretty hot
(in theory) about protection of subjects: noble lords get
to rule so long as they provide protection.
Anyway...this heading toward a third great flame war between
us. Let me make an observation:
We're tackling this issue from two different sides, AFAICT.
You're looking at written BT behavior toward invaders where,
by and large, they do seem to positively roll over for an
invader.
What I'm trying to say in this thread is, "Ain't that
some bullpucky? Did FASA screw up again or whut?"
I'm addressing how things should be in the real world
(down that path liese questions of mech targeting
ability and the FTL drive exhaust on larger warships),
and you're standing on damnably solid written, fictional
facts. :)
If I'm correct about where you're arguing this from,
Solarmech, then I'll admit (again) planets in BT do
seem to roll over rather easy.
Though I'd like to point I'd like to point out House
invasion forces usually involves a few regiments of
garrison infantry and enough firepower to quickly put down
open, stand-up shooting rebellions. Some planets - BORDER
planets - such as Kittery (CC/FS), fight for decades even
though the conquering nation offer superior civil rights
to its predecessor.
At least the Great Houses have the decency (with respect
to reality) to leave several conventional regiments
to garrison a newly conquered planet. With a small
mech and tank detachment to stomp rebels dumb enough
to seek stand-up fights, a few regiments of combat
infantry is plenty to back up strong arm of a conquering
Great House: a small army of imported administrators
for the *military* government imposed on the conquered
planet. They can get in, get down, and get dirty with
the local government. They have (barely) the manpower
to make the local government bend over and not only
watch for any dirty tricks by the locals and the local
government, but the manpower to punish lower level
functionaries and police who don't round up rebels
when they're told. Heck, several regiments of infantry
represent almost as much manpower as an entire Clan's
warrior caste.
To phrase this another way, several regiments of infantry
and, say, 2-3 times as many non-combatant military
administrators represent as large of a policing force
as the NYPD has. The NYPD sits on, what, a population
of 18 million? That's got to be about the size of a
government for a planet of 1 billion. Yeah, I'm starting
believe a House could conquer a planet and not get
booted off in a rebellion in a few months.
But the Clans take the opposite approach: utterly
hands off, right? Did you mention a hard page number
citation on how hands off the Clans were?
How long do you think it will take the word to get
around that there's only a few hundred (at the most!)
Clan invaders? And they have a lot less combat
infantry than the typical DC/LC invasion force.
But the IS worlds just roll for the Clan invaders.
Ain't that some bullpucky?
Wow. Now that I think about it, I'd feel positively
empowered to maybe raise my hand in anger against a
lone Clan warrior in a dark bar that lacked subpeonable
security camera tapes, with about 20 or so of my
friends. :) There aren't many Clan warriors to spare
hunting us, let alone whip the local PD into coming
after us.
Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller, MatE
The Clans, by leaving no more than a few hundred
warriors (can they spare that many?) and taking a
hands off approach
Stephen Tempest
>You're looking at written BT behavior toward invaders where,
>by and large, they do seem to positively roll over for an
>invader.
>
>What I'm trying to say in this thread is, "Ain't that
>some bullpucky? Did FASA screw up again or whut?"
I think part of this is that you're assuming that 31st century people
will have similar attitudes to 20th/21st century Americans, in the way
they react to invasions and regard their governments. The FASA
version of events looks more realistic if you assume, instead, that
they're more like 15th-century European peasants.
"Arr, Silas, crops be looking good now."
"That be so. You going to market next week?"
"Naw. Went last Tuesday. They done got some new flag flying over the
City Hall there now."
"Oh aye? Something happened to the old squire, then?"
"Reckon so. This new flag, it's some kind of big green bird. Fellow
I spoke to, says we're now ruled by something called the Jade Falcon
Clan, whatever that is."
"Sounds foreign-like to me. You reckon they're going to put taxes up
again?"
"Probably. Every new lot that comes in to rule us does that, don't
they? Why, I'd be flat broke if I actually paid them what they wanted
each time! Funny how the harvest's always bad and the hens always stop
laying just before the taxman calls, isn't it?<mutual laughter>
"Still, that bloke said these Falcon people had some fancy
tech-know-lodgy. Weapons and stuff. Maybe even Star League, he said,
though if I had a penny for every time I've heard *that* story..."
"Aye, you're right there. Remember when we were kids, thinking we'd
find some cache of lostech and set *ourselves* up as fancy lords like
Morgan Kell or Jaime Wolf? Still, if it's true I'd love to see some
of these Eagles, Falcons, whatever they're called for myself some day.
Though I daresay this friend of yours in the city was telling tall
tales. I suppose you'll say next he claimed they were Kerensky's
people returned to save us!"
"Funny you should say that..."
"What? No! You're joking! You *are* joking, aren't you?"
"No, apparently, that's what they said they were. Of course, if you
*believe* that, I've got a fine horse I'd like to sell you..."
"If you mean that nag you keep in the top pasture, no thank you. But
anyway, we've got more important things to talk about. I hear your
youngest is getting married next fortnight! How old is she now? It
only seems like last year she was in her cradle..."
<etc>
In other words, as long as the Clanners don't behave too atrociously
(hello Clan Smoke Jaguar) most Inner Spheroids will regard their
take-over with mild curiosity and a shrug of the shoulders.
>when they're told. Heck, several regiments of infantry
>represent almost as much manpower as an entire Clan's
>warrior caste.
I'm becoming more convinced myself that someone screwed up the Clan
population figures. 110,000 might *possibly* just work as the number
of active-service front-line military troops (see my other post today
where I worked out the Clans jointly field 25,000 'Mechs or the
equivalent), but can't include garrisons, etc.
OTOH, the MechCommander game does have most of your opponents as Inner
Sphere "bondsman" mechs, implying that the Invading Clans have
recruited heavily from the local population to form garrison units,
which presumably aren't counted in the Warrior Caste population
figures. These units should be loyal enough: take restless young
men, give them good pay, access to lots of free sex, the opportunity
to use shiny new weapons to blow things up, and a posting to another
planet where they don't have any friends or family among the local
population. It worked for the Romans, it worked for the British in
India, why shouldn't it work for the Clans?
>Wow. Now that I think about it, I'd feel positively
>empowered to maybe raise my hand in anger against a
>lone Clan warrior in a dark bar that lacked subpeonable
>security camera tapes, with about 20 or so of my
>friends. :) There aren't many Clan warriors to spare
>hunting us, let alone whip the local PD into coming
>after us.
I doubt there'd be any lone Clan warriors. On friendly or important
planets, the Clans would station a full-strength unit plus lots of
local support troops - just the same as the House Lords would have
done in the old days. Clan troops would be clearly briefed on which
areas of town were safe for them to visit and which they should avoid
- just like the military has been doing for centuries. On other
worlds, there won't *be* any Clanners on-planet. Twice a year a
WarShip and troops will appear in orbit, collect the tax from the
planetary government, then leave them alone again for the next six
months. Again, just like the Steiners or Kuritas would have done.
Stephen
Vang
Mike Miller wrote:
> I really don't think the Clans are offering enough for anyone
to just roll over, but that seems to be the standard reaction
of any but a handful of Inner Sphere planets to invasion. I
have to say I'm a little baffled by it.
Perhaps people are still scared of a repeat of when the Smoke Jaguars
bombed that city in the Draconis Combine? Somehow I doubt that the
general populace would be told that warships are no longer being used in
the Clan Occupation Zones (has this changed since the Jaguars were
annihilated?) While not quite as destructive as an nuke, the threat of
orbital bombardment would probably be enough to intimidate the populace
in behaving.
Just a thought.
EDWARD LAFFERTY
>
>>I would also think a Clan garrison would be larger than a few
hundred.
>>There's an awful lot of support personnel, not to mention I think
the
>>Clans would not be so stupid as to be unable to realize that they
are
>>massively outnumbered.
>
>The total Clan population is 1.4 billion - it isn't
>hard to find individual planets in the Inner Sphere
>that have twice the entire Clan population.
>
>From Warriors of Kerensky, the total Clan warrior
>population is 110,500 from across all the Clans. I'd
>be dubious if you told me 110,500 warriors was enough
>to garrison and control a unwilling population of over
>1 billion.
>
>This means you might expect 6500-7000 warriors
>per Clan. Which is not enough to garrison a population
>of over 1 billion.
>
>For an invading Clan to garrison, say, 10 worlds
>and save none for further offense or defense of
>worlds back in Clan space, the garrisons would be
>around 600-700.
>
OK, where did you get those numbers? If those are the numbers you're
going by, I can definitely see your point. I never read that
sourcebook, "Warriors of Kerensky". Are you sure you might not be
reading it out of context, as in 110,500 per Clan? Or maybe just
MechWarriors?
I mean...if those number are right, the logistics are indeed horrible.
I mean, I don't even see the Inner Sphere's worry then. Because they
so overwhelm them with numbers the Clans were no serious threat, ever.
-The numbers are from WoK....personally, I think they are ridiculous
and can/should be considered erroneous on Phelans part. But others
would say they are canon and should be treated as such.
Also, could they even man all those warships and dropships with only
that many people?
-Each ship has only a few warriors, in command positions. Most of the
crew are of the technician caste.
That number, even if it is from FASA, does not sound right at all to
me. If it is from them, then somebody in the editor's department
wasn't doing their job, because it works against all the fiction. Not
to mention the only limit on the number of warriors the Clans can have
is how many they can put in a vat. I would think they could crank out
scores of warriors, IF they wanted to.
-It used to be. But FASA seems to have decided to shrink the Clans to
allow an IS victory....if so, this was unnecessary (IMO) and has led
to these sorts of paradoxes.
>>Additionally, many Clans move in their merchants, etc to the
>>Inner Sphere. That builds ties, etc to the conquered populace.
>
>Sounds a lot like the "win their hearts and minds" thing
>the US tried in Vietnam. That didn't work on the South
>Vietnamese, and they started as our allies. The Clans
>won't necessarily have that advantage.
For the most part, the Clans have their source of material, labor,
etc. back home. Does anyone know anything about Clan tax policies? If
the Clans basically eliminated all the interstellar nation produced
taxes, I would think that would please the locals.
"Well, instead of paying 15% to the Archon, we pay 1% "Garrison
Maintenance". Hmm...."
Now, yes, there will be inflation, but there won't be as much money
going out of the economy and people's percieved wealth will go up.
-The Clan basically owns everything, and goods may be redistributed
at will. Workers get paid a credit system, allowing them to 'hire'
goods and requisition food.
In practise, it would work very much like any other payment system,
and I can't see the Clan gettign worked up about the need to
redistribute personal items. And because it 'owns everything' there
seems to be very little need for a large tax system.
>
>>Finally, if you're a backwater world, you may have to contend with
>>Clan supporters. While people are offended by "alien invaders", the
>>Clans also bring technology. In some cases, this means an improved
>>standard of living.
>
>The Clans did well on backwater worlds - can't disagree
>with that. But I wasn't addressing the Clan invasion in
>general. I was addressing their invasion of a well-
>populated planet with enough technology to support a
>global "internet" equivalent. That's not a primitive
>backwater world.
>
-The backgound info on the IS does not seem to support the idea of an
Internet. The Clans, yes...but the IS infrastructure is bad and
fractured and an Internet would be only available on a limited number
of worlds. Outreach, and Terra. Simply put, its not important enough
to build anywhere else, or if so, only for limited purposes.
Even then, the Clans have alot of technology to offer. They have alot
in the way of drugs, etc. and the MechWarrior material we have pretty
much shows that if you loose a limb they just grow you a new one. The
benefits of all their experience with genetic manipulation is indeed
tempting.
-Yes, but technology is restricted as well. They wil rebuild what
they destroyed, all the time moaning about warriors destroying what
they are sworn to protect.
>>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>>down.
>
>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>computers it's coming from?
>
>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>servers across the planet?
- This is easy to answer. Assuming there is an Internet, why would
the Clans have qualms about shutting it down? The there are
potentials in viral tehnologies in this case and so on - asuuming the
Clans can find one primitive enough to interface with local
equipment.
>
>>I'd think they are like the Combine: they have a grip on the
>>media.
>
>How? How do the Clans miraculously achieve control over
>something as diffuse as a 31st century internet? Where
>do they get the manpower to monitor every website?
>
Step forward Echelon IIC. We can do this today and it is being done.
With the so-called Internets availble to the IS, the Clans would
easily be able to monitor the Internet.
>>And if you're underground, they're gonna come hunting you.
>
>I'm sure the Clans are hunting some "guerillas,"
>big targets like the planetary leadership, but
>they don't have the *manpower* to hunt many guerilla
>groups. See my quote from Guide to the Clans on the
>Clans' ability to do any sort of detective work.
>
Whih in itself does not make sense. They don't need detectives - they
jsut need enough genetic material to recostruct the face of the perso
involved. And they are likely to have the DNA on file anyway -just
match it.
Clan justice would be quick and harsh, but far likelier to affect the
real criminal.
>>It works both ways, they can offer rewards too. They
>>probably have more money/bargaining than you.
>
>Clans don't use money per se. Though I'm sure a
>Timberwolf and a point of elementals could get a
>generous loan from a bank fast enough.
- They don't have money but they can ofer rewards. Extra credits,
promotion,etc.
>
>>I mean, there
>>is no way the government is gonna be in open rebellion.
>
>And what if it was? Do you know how many people are needed
>to govern 1+ billion people? How many different office
>buildings, annexes, police stations, post offices? How
>diffuse a government is? A few hundred Clan warriors are
>going to be a pinprick to a planetary government.
>
>How about a little civic disobediance? A clan warrior
>storms into your government office, barks out some
>orders, and goes back to the barracks to make another
>porn movie. The government workers just ignore the
>orders after the warrior leaves. What are the Clanners
>going to do? Kill them all? That's a sure way to win
>the population's hearts and minds. What if threatened
>government workers just go home and take paid leave for
>a few months while the invaders are around?
>
Why would they do that?
The average person is not that self-less.
Clan Star Colonel: Well, Prime Minister Chavez, we want you to
continue running your government as you did before we arrived. We know
may not like us, but you do not have to like us. Just do as we ask,
and we will not be asking much at all. Simply try and keep the local
population in line and assist us in controlling rebellion.
Minister Chavez: And what if I don't help you?
Star Colonel: Then you will be replaced. It would be in your best
interests to help us though. We will improve life for your people, and
we will make sure that you personally benefit from cooperation.
President Chavez: I refuse to do anything for a bunch of scum sucking
rat bastards like you.
Star Colonel: Elemental Bob! Put citizen Chavez in the brig.
(turns to Vice Minister) Well, new Prime Minister Caldwell, we want
you to....
You get the point. The Clans will just go down the line till they find
people willing to assist them. I'm sure there will be someone who
would rather sell out and get greased palms and a promotion than to go
to jail on principals. I don't think the Clans are just going to kill
resistors. Violent people, yes. Civil disobedience to them would be
like insubordination and they'd just throw the person in jail.
- No. Civil disobedience is equated with rebellion in the Clans. Add
in the fact that warriors are unused to dealing with crowd control
duties and you have uincidents int he amking.
>>The one problem with your argument is you're assuming they WANT to
>>overthrow the Clans
>
>A Lyran/FC or FRR planet is pretty good about
>civil rights. Often, the planets are allowed to pretty
>much set up their own governments. No comment on the Combine.
>Republics, democracies, etc. seem pretty common in Lyran
>space, and I don't recall the FRR tolerating their
>leadership getting uppity. This does mean most FC and FRR
>planets can chose their own local, planetary governments.
>The government they have is one they've chosen.
>
That government isn't the one supplanted by the Clans. The Clans
supplant the interstellar government. The local planetary government
is intact. I mean, even if they had MORE people than what you present,
it wouldn't make sense for them to try to also run the government.
They couldn't do that.
No, it would be the FC or the FRR that would be replaced, not the
planetary government.
And if I was living in 3063, I would be damn glad NOT to be part of
the Lyran Alliance (considering it's going to hell in a handbag).
The FRR? They don't seem to happy as it is. There seems to be
dissention over it basically becoming an extension of Com-Star...
-That actually varies a lot. Some Clans take charge more than others.
Clan Wolf, for example, was pretty unconcerned about local leadership
when Nat was in charge, but that changed when Vlad stepped up.
Clan SJ also prefers a more hands on approach though they had ore
serious problems when dealing with a population that was honour bound
not to surrender and did everything they could to thwart them.
>And, of course, the Clans aren't exactly going to give
>a former republic a chance to vote their new Clan leadership
>out of power, nor was the populous given much choice about
>the installation of Clan authority in the first place. I've
>noticed externally, violently imposed governments seem to
>rub natives the wrong way.
No doubt. But I only see the violence happening when the natives get
violent first.
-That is typically the way the Clans ruled. But the Clans, when
aroused by such behaviour, were typically brutal.
>
>**This bodes ill well for the Clan warriors sent to hunt
>down "underground" guerillas who took care to cover their
>tracks. You know, "underground": back to work at the office
>building across the street from the Clan barracks, or
>in the mid-level managerial position in the government,
>or any of a million other innocuous places for a few
>hundred Clan warriors to search through.
>
Why search.. a gene sample would give them the face of their enemy.
Allt ye need is a good forensics team.
>The Clans ARE an improvement for many worlds in the
>Inner Sphere. But they're marauding, destructive barbarians
>to others.
>
>And there aren't many of them. That's the cool part.
>
I find the numbers hard to swallow. I think if you're right, then
someone goofed somewhere. Because it doesn't add up.
-I know.
If I can say anything, it's that ever since the age of colonization,
there has been plenty of hostile planetary take overs. And I'm sure
the Clans have record of all this. I'd say they subdue a planet the
same way a successor state does. (and I don't mean Kentares)
-No. They go in, defeat the garrison and expected the civilians to
continue on as before. They did not expect the rise of resistance or
guerilla groups, nor the sort of passive resistance faced by the
Jags. IS forces expect this and put into palce various measures to
ombat them. On the other hand, Clan forces are more liekly to keep
local government structures intact - at least to a degree, they would
all for example, place their own governors in charge of the planet.
And, like I said, if it was that easy to overthrow the Clans, in 10
years+, it should have happened a few times.
-It should be real simple to defeat the Clans. The DC shoudln't have
needed any help to kick the Jags out, and the LCs should be able to
wipe out the Falcons. Through attrition if nothing else. Phelans
figures should be treated with a pinch of salt, I feel, but they are
we really have to work with.
EJL
EDWARD LAFFERTY
Right, of course. They take out the head studio. Then an
affiliate provides a back up studio and newsfeed.
- True.
I'm quite aware of the vulnerability of a newstations
to the Clans. I'm pointing out the inherent redundancy
in the system - there's always another that can take
over the lead position.
-But only to a degree.
>As I said else where, they have computers to do all that stuff.
>The monitoring tech mostly exists today and is within easy
>grasp of the Clans.
Alright. So what?
How long do you think it will take for an irritated
server manager to cut out the Clan techs' feeds to
the internet? There's always a back up, of course, but
there's a helluva lot more network adminstrators than
there Clan techs.
>The Clans (Other than the Smoked Kitties) didn't have any of those
>massacres for a govt to exploit.
And the guerillas won't unintentionally generate massacres
when the Clan warriors starting executing anyone vaguely
suspected of helping the guerillas?
>Read pages 49 and 50 and 61 and 62 of Warriors of Kerensky. They most
>certainly do. Propaganda is all over the places in the Clans.
Yes, I recall propaganda was common in the Clans, but
not particularly subtle. It was also targeted for a captive
audiance.
Doesn't make it any less effective.
>Why don't you look it up? Their search engines are so good just the
fear of
>them is enough to keep people in line most of the time. But when
they do look
>it is very efficient.
Alright. Do those Chatterweb search engines work well with
the key word indices and operating systems of Planet X's
internet?
- Probably not. By the same token, much of what the IS uses is
primitve junk to the clans. It'll be simple. What will acsue the most
problems are the fragemented protocols used by differeing planets.
And if they do, so what? They found the dissident or
hacker. Is a point of Elementals going to be dispatched
to arrest him?
- Most likely, yes. Or the local police forces.
>All they need is one server (they would probably install their own
and keep
>it running) As for the programs they can be installed and the
freebirths
>would not even know they are there.
How does one server magically give them access to the
entire internet? All the world's internet traffic doesn't
pass through one server.
- You serious? We can do this *today*. I would expect the clans to be
somewhat better at it, at least, once they manage to integrate thier
systems with it.
>
>>There are many different computer skills. Ability to massively
>>encrypt files does not denote the ability to censor web
>>traffic. Super powerful computers and outstanding ability
>>to maintain them does not denote good hacking talents.
>
>Sorry. But this is incorrect. Computer science is like any other.
I'm sorry, it is correct. A person experienced with programming
Unix is not a master of programming in a Windows environment
unless he also spent a lot of time programming in a Windows
environment.
Clan Techs that are masters of programming in the Clan
operating system and hacking the Chatterweb are going to
be fish out of water on Inner Sphere computers. They
won't know the back doors, the loop holes, or the
security protocols.
- True, but only to an extent. And this is easily remedied.
2) A similar problem occurs when the Clan techs manage to get
the virus to run in an Inner Sphere OS environment and start
hunting politically upsetting files. Do the Clan techs know
Inner Sphere file formats? What if a virus in search the bytes
that in Clan file formats stands for "the ilKhan rapes monkeys"
ends up deleting the string of bytes that stands for "turn up
the heart medication for Patient 7" in the Inner Sphere operating
system?
- I assume that the operating manuals would be there. And is there
any reason why the techs themselves wouild not cooperate?
And I'd suspect deleted files would stand out very quickly.
Don't most internet file transfer systems confirm file
transfer success or failure? And certainly someone who tried
to download that neat-o clip his bud told him about where the
Clan dude's doin' the donkey is going to notice when he
doesn't get the video.
-Whos he going to complain to?
Finally, the Succession Wars have made interstellar
transport and communication erratic. Each bombed out
planet probably rebuilt its IT infrastructure on its,
subject to what sort of technology it was able to
recover.
-Why rebuild a luxury? Most planets probably don't have an InterNet.
Or a lot of angry people. It's a population of 1 billion+ we're
talking about.
- Which will have a correspondingly large garrison.
Your statement, in turn, is too universal. The Clans did not
only conquer border populations, and some remained fiercely
patriotic.
-True.
>>
>>They DO have better health facilities
>
>I'd expect the difference between 23rd Century IS
>medical tech and 31st Century Clan medical technology
>to be the number of exotic diseases than can cure.
>
Except that, thansk to the Exodus, the Age of War, the Civil War, the
Sucession Wars et al, 23rd Century medicine is very similar to modern
medicine.
>I'm in utter disagreement here. The Clans invaded (war, not
>peace), enraged the remainder of the Great House the planet
>belonged to (so there will be more war when the House
>attempts to clear off the planet, not peace), disrupted
>centuries old systems of government (aren't the Houses all
>about 3 times as old as the Clans? Now THAT'S stability),
>and INVADED. Where is their peace and stability?
>
-The Clans invaded, but they will keep fighting away from the cities,
and have not disrupted local government as much as other closer
invaders and enemies. As overlords/rulers, they are no worse than
some, and better than others.
Yeah, I'd be REAL appreciative of the Clans' fighting style.
First they invade my planet, then they start censoring my
porn and e-mail (damn them! I really wanted to see the Khan
and the monkey!), and they're polite enough to fight away
from the city. Thank you, thank you Clan warriors.
-Invasions and censoring should be nothing new. That the Clans
actually make efforts to rebuild what was destroyed, and fight away
from the cities would go a long towards quellign any bad thoughts.
But you'll always get the trouiblemakers.
No, I think I'd blame the invaders for the war, not my
government for fighting to defend my home only to have to
blown up. Even repeatedly. After all, my government's the
one that's trying to protect me and end the war, the
other guys are the bad guys. The TV told me so. :)
-Except that your governments probably changed several times in the
past fifty or so years. So which one do you fight for? The one you
wre born under? The one your parents lived under? The one you live
under now? Most people do not look to the Great Houses as their
'home' but to the planetary government.
>
>WHY do you insist and saying "at gun point".
Because, if the Clans otherwise leave the government alone,
there's nothing to stop the government at every level from
doing what it's done for 300 years: fight the invaders.
- Yes, and no. They will do what they ahve done, whcih is govern.
Whenever a new army conquers the world, they accept the new rule.
If the Clans won't back up their orders with threats of
violence, I see no good reason for a local government to
obey - because the populous should damn well start hanging
leaders who obey the Clans without serious, obvious
coersion.
- The Clans expect them to do their job. If they won't do it, they
will receive the approriate punishment. Which can include exile and
execution.
>Since the Clans would never bother much of the local govt why would
it
>"rebel" and not do their jobs? Simple, the govt would NOT cause
problems. You
>have shot down your own point.
Not at all. See above. Left to its own devices and faced
with only a few hundred invaders, the government's in great
shape. Letting a few hundred invaders rule the planet when
it'd be so easy to stomp them (with irregular warfare)
that it'd be criminal of the government to let the invaders
stay in power.
- A few hundred on planet. How many off planet? And if they irritate
the Clans enough for them to start reprisals?
>
>And who will suffer. The general population. Not the Clans. And the
whole
>idea of massive public support goes out he the window. No rebellion.
RIIGHT. The public will suffer enormously while a the
President and a few top FBI agents take a few months of
paid leave. You just said the Clans leave the government
alone - that means it's free to do its duty of repelling
the uniquely vulnerable invaders.
-The government is left largely intact...not alone. It is expected to
function, but for the Clan.
>And for the most part the Clans didn't do anything to piss anyone
off.
Yes, they were very kind and gentle.
- Yes. They were. Especially compared with some of the Inner Sphere
governments they were replacing. And in other respects they were
cruel and brutal.
Do they stay kind and gentle when a few loyal soldiers with
rifles get up on a convenient water tower and cap a star of
trueborn mechwarriors playing tourist?
-No. Would you? They would expect the soldier to be handed over, or
they would go a hunting.
Let me guess, any reprisals were the fault of the soldiers
trying to defeat the invaders?
-Yes. They were defeated in battle. And should accept that defeat.
That they do not makes them criminals.
EJL
Mike Miller
>I think part of this is that you're assuming that 31st century people
>will have similar attitudes to 20th/21st century Americans, in the way
>they react to invasions and regard their governments. The FASA
>version of events looks more realistic if you assume, instead, that
>they're more like 15th-century European peasants.
[snip excellent peasant dialogue]
Well, now, sirrah, that's some rightly thinking.
However, it would be an exaggeration to extend that sort of
thinking to every Inner Sphere planet, or even a large majority.
pg41-42 of Warriors of Kerensky gives some choice
points both in support of and against your example.
I mean, you're utterly correct for some planets:
as stated in the section bridging p41-42 of WoK,
Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear have had quite a bit
of success just because the planets they captured
were border planets and were used to changes in
government.
Clear implication (to me, who's stuck in a rut on
this subject) is that other Clans have had trouble
pacifying their IS possessions, and have had trouble
with this just because their planets aren't used to
be conquered and invaded on a regular basis.
(I also like pg41 of WoK because it shows all that's
evil and nasty about Clan psychology - the
xenophobia, might-makes-right mentality, etc.)
And while the ruling governments of each House range
from vaguely feudal (FWL) to pretty darn feudal
(FS), individual planets aren't necessarily feudal
at all. Many of them (particularly in the FWL, FS,
and LC) are republics/democracies/non-feudal, where
the people are damnably used to having a say in
local government. They aren't used to switching
leaders. For example: Kessel, in the Kuritan Handbook.
Kessel was captured "hundreds of years ago" from the Lyran
Commonwealth by the evil minions of House Kurita. It
supports (in 3025) a strong underground. In fact, "hundreds
of thousands" of deaths of minor government functionaries
and garrison soldiers are explicitly attributed to the
resistance movement. Look it up in the Atlas of Kuritan
worlds in the back of the sourcebook.
Kessel, in fact, just about perfectly fits the sort
of world I was thinking of in this discussion: population
of 2 billion, well industrialized (so it isn't low tech),
and a people inclined to resist.
Is Kessel anywhere near the Clan invasion path?
And then there's...I think it's New Earth, which is
exactly the opposite. Exactly what you're talking about
Stephen, though it isn't very feudal. It doesn't care
who rules it, really, and is upheld in the Steiner
Sourcebook as an exceptional example of apathy toward
the Succession Wars. I think it was New Earth, but the
Steiner sourcebook doesn't seem to be available for
download yet.
>I'm becoming more convinced myself that someone screwed up the Clan
>population figures. 110,000 might *possibly* just work as the number
>of active-service front-line military troops (see my other post today
>where I worked out the Clans jointly field 25,000 'Mechs or the
>equivalent), but can't include garrisons, etc.
Yeah, but I don't mind that error. By carefully sticking
to that number as the entire body count of Clan warriors
and ignoring the tendency of IS planets to roll over for
invaders, I can create a playable guerilla warfare campaign
where the PCs rouse the public to fight and boot off the
barbarian invaders. It'd be a lot harder for the players to
win if the Clans could/did put out the required effort of
subjugating a planet. A garrison of tens of thousands,
administrators galore...bleh. Run realistically, the PCs
will end up dead and the players pissed at me. :)
>I doubt there'd be any lone Clan warriors. On friendly or important
>planets, the Clans would station a full-strength unit plus lots of
>local support troops - just the same as the House Lords would have
>done in the old days.
If they had the manpower, I could see that.
>Clan troops would be clearly briefed on which
>areas of town were safe for them to visit and which they should avoid
>- just like the military has been doing for centuries.
When did the Clans realize that there were areas of
conquered cities they shouldn't venture into? AFAIK,
laborers and merchants in Clan cities that trade hands
between Clans aren't inclined to start capping warriors.
I'd be fascinated to see the Clan learning curve in
response to snipers, dark alley boot parties, and
car bombs. Have they encountered those prior to their
invasion of the Inner Sphere?
Mike Miller, MatE
Sola...@aol.com
<mmi...@ddlomni.com> writes:
>
>In most places - like the FRR - it took over a decade for
>the FRR to realize that, gee, the Ghost Bears weren't so
>bad. BT literature phrases the situation that it took a long
>time for the invaded planets to get used to the Clans. I
>wish I could remember where specifically - I'm guessing
>the MW3E main book.
>
It took them that long to used to the Clans. But what about just tolerating
them? That's all the Clans need. The Clan that DID cause trouble and have
rebellions going on is dead. Matter of fact they where SO bad Clan Nova Cat
actually complained in the Grand Council about the poor treatment of the
civilians in the Occupation Zone. But that's Kurita space and many of the
attitudes that you scenario requires are not present.
>
>No, it is fighting to protect the people it is sworn to
>protect from enemies foreign and domestic. Exactly how many
>nations don't bother including some wordage in their charters
>and constitutions that they'll protect their people? Feudal
>societies like the Inner Sphere are usually pretty hot
>(in theory) about protection of subjects: noble lords get
>to rule so long as they provide protection.
>
But what have Clan X done to protect the people against? All they did was
kick out the interstellar overlords. They didn't go blowing away the general
public.
>Anyway...this heading toward a third great flame war between
>us. Let me make an observation:
>
Naw we don't flame each other, we just argue emphatically :) Flamers get
their autoapprove pulled and since we still have them we aren't flaming.
>We're tackling this issue from two different sides, AFAICT.
>
>You're looking at written BT behavior toward invaders where,
>by and large, they do seem to positively roll over for an
>invader.
>
>What I'm trying to say in this thread is, "Ain't that
>some bullpucky? Did FASA screw up again or whut?"
>
Like this is NEW? Come ON! We ALL know Fasa has all their figures screwed up
on this kind of thing. Just look at the huge population growth the Turians
had in their early days.
SNIP
>
>Wow. Now that I think about it, I'd feel positively
>empowered to maybe raise my hand in anger against a
>lone Clan warrior in a dark bar that lacked subpeonable
>security camera tapes, with about 20 or so of my
>friends. :) There aren't many Clan warriors to spare
>hunting us, let alone whip the local PD into coming
>after us.
>
Well, there are a few problems. The Clan military does not hang out with IS
freebirths all that much. :) And if they were the CSJ, the bar, and maybe
the entire TOWN may get wasted. That might make me think twice about causing
to much trouble. If you REALLY would like to cause trouble for the garrison
force, but NOT do anything that would cause them to really look hard for you,
(And the local police would not get overly upset either) slip laxative into
the water supply. Download copies of the tech specs to be smuggled out. Soap
the windows of the mechs cockpits. Paint flowers on their elemental suits.
Dump a load of manure nearby. It's a lot more fun to be nerve wracking than
lethal. Mainly because if you do kill someone that gives them the option of
killing people to get to you. (And the local police might feel the
responsibility to do their jobs properly) Just be an irritation, they don't
have much recourse other than to site and take it or go overboard and THEY
get in trouble from their commanders. sm
Sola...@aol.com
>
>Is Kessel anywhere near the Clan invasion path?
>
Only if the Clans get much closer to Terra. It's about midway between Terra
and the FFR. sm
J. Calvert
wrote:
<snip>
>There's no particular indication morals in BT
>have "loosened" beyond the 20th Century's. While
>the Magistracy of Canopus is, of course, a stand
>out, BT's future history has seen things like
>a total reversion on women's rights in the Federated
>Suns in the (IIRC) 2300s-2400s to the point they
>couldn't go anywhere without the escort of a male
>relative. ISTR the first Periphery Handbook (or SLSB?)
>mentioning sex with mermaids (in the MoC, again) only
>euphemistically - "And when the little missus is
>away, I'll tell you what fun you could have with
>the mermaids," or something like that.
Well, while there is no real indication, it's pretty obvious to me
that gender equality has arrived, at least outside the Combine. Women
are proliferate through the military, hold high offices in the
government, and in the FC/LA, I've seen no indication of it. The last
three ruling members of the Steiner family have been women.
And just read any sociology book, feminist movements and sexual
"freedom" are linked. A society develops a more lax view of
relationships and it becomes a chain reaction. Anyhow, I don't think
they're as uptight as you suggest they might.
>
>Arranged marriages, wars over Davion heirs hooking
>up with Kuritan heirs (not Omi-Vic, but a little
>incident in the 1st Star League), suicide and murder
>over affairs, dynasty-rocking scandals when a
>First Prince turned out to be queer and his "heir"
>had been supplied by a loyal general, etc. Kuritan
>and Capellan societies seem particularly uptight
>about marriage and sex, but I might be reading too
>much into that.
>
>Ah, wait, wasn't Phelan put a bit offbalance by
>seeing nude Clan female warriors in the shower with
>men?
>
Yes, but I think anyone from our time period probably would be too.
That doesn't really mean anything. I would think men and women would
have seperate facitilities in an Inner Sphere level of culture because
men would basically forward unwanted comments. The Clans don't care
because their open-ness to sex eliminates that outgrowth, and they
have a more filial feel towards members of their sibko.
Off-topic, does anyone else always think "Starship Troopers" when they
are reminded of this scene?
>I think that the average Inner Sphere planet is
>prudish enough that extensively distributed nude
>videos of Clan warriors would cause a loss of
>respect for the invaders, or a loss of something.
Well, I could probably get labeled "prudish" by a good number of
people, but porn just doesn't offend me. Just because I don't approve
of random sex acts doesn't mean I care. It's just naked people. All
you're really doing by a porn smear campaign is publicizing that the
Clans do something that most everyone else also does.
<snip>
>Warriors of Kerensky breaks down the Clan population,
>and gives totals that match up with the sum populations
>of all 30-something Clan home worlds. So 110,500 DOES
>represent the total warrior population of ALL clans,
>not just one. I don't have the page numbers handy.
>
I don't have the book, but...that just seems excessively small to me.
Even with the limits on MechWarriors by available material, I would
think something like Elementals would be in higher need, simply as
your guards.
<snip again>
>>Also, could they even man all those warships and dropships
>>with only that many people?
>
>Techs. I'm pretty certain most Clan dropships/warships
>are crewed by techs. They're just battle taxis for the
>"real" warriors to Clan thinking, so there's no harm
>in crewing those ships with techs. Heck, dropships were
>non-combatants to the Clans in 3050...
>
True, but I'd think they'd want good numbers of Elementals or
something to prevent boarders from capturing the ship.
>>That number, even if it is from FASA, does not sound right at all to
>>me. If it is from them, then somebody in the editor's department
>>wasn't doing their job, because it works against all the fiction. Not
>>to mention the only limit on the number of warriors the Clans can have
>>is how many they can put in a vat. I would think they could crank out
>>scores of warriors, IF they wanted to.
>
>2 limits: How many they can crank out of vats, and how many
>they can train.
>
>It takes ~15 years to get a minimally trained Clan warrior.
>That is an enormous investment in time and effort. Despite
>the vats, the Clans still only have 1.4 billion or so
>subjects as of 3050 - I have two cites (Kuritan Sourcebook
>& MW 3rd edition) giving the Inner Sphere a THOUSAND times
>that population.
>
With the high degree of standardization and the fact that the
investment is mere turn-around time, I wouldn't think that would be
too limiting. I mean, the training force is just the old Warriors.
Considering that the Clans place the military so high above everything
else, I would think they could do something about that.
>If I had a 1000:1 population advantage, I'd go for
>"6 weeks of boot camp and 2 years of 'Mechs/fighters/
>tanks/rifles for Dummies'." Heck, if I just wanted
>a few hundred thousand guerilla soldiers that could
>blend into the local populous, 6 weeks of boot camp
>should be plenty.
>
I don't doubt that. That's always struck me funny: What the hell are
the Crusaders gonna DO once they take Terra?
<snipage again...would you believe it>
Not necessarily. By the same token, if you're talking about the
Lyrans, think of the red tape. There's plenty of extravagent
non-necessary expenditures within the military alone. Not to mention
nobles wanting money just to up their own wealth. Probably certain
universities or institutions get chunks of that money too.
(paritcularly sore issue for those here in NC actually)
Just think for a second. If you live in the U.S., just consider how
many programs or things the government funds that in no way benefits
you?
There are SO MANY groups just comitted to watching the pork in the
U.S. government, it's insane.
I mean, there's lots of it too, people on more affluent worlds, such
as those you are talking about probably have to contribute wealth to
help feed those people on the backwater planets, etc.
To say that taxes = positive changes from the government? I just can't
possibly agree with this.
>And therefore, I don't think tax cuts aret really
>a card the Clans can wave at the captive populous
>to make them happy.
>
>>Even then, the Clans have alot of technology to offer. They have alot
>>in the way of drugs, etc. and the MechWarrior material we have pretty
>>much shows that if you loose a limb they just grow you a new one.
>
>As I recall, one of the core elements of the US "Hearts
>and Minds" thing in Vietnam was providing decent medical
>services to the South Vietnamese. Certainly much better
>than what Vietnam could afford on its own.
>
>
That was a different type of situation. We were basically sticking our
noses in a civil war. And those people were very poor. What good is
being cured from a disease if you're going to starve to death a month
later?
>>>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>>>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>>>down.
>>
>>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>>computers it's coming from?
>>
>>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>>servers across the planet?
>
>>You're making the assumption that the origin is hidden.
>
>Not really. I'm assuming the Clans don't have the
>manpower to hunt down a lot of web-TV stations. Or
>more specifically, web servers.
>
>How many local TV stations (studios) do you think
>there are in the US, pop. 281 million?
>
Alot. But that doesn't matter. It dosen't take a "lot of manpower".
Hell, if someone was sanctioned by the government to destroy TV
stations, all it would take is a moron with a phone book and a bag of
fertilizer.
It can't possibly be that hard.
The point is, that the national/international media is a business and
their places of operation are well publicized. It does not take any
effort to take over or blow up a building if you know exactly where it
is and you have a highly trained military force.
You stick a star of Elementals in a dropship or shuttle, it takes you
minimal time to get to the station. They go in, they clear everyone
out of the building, sieze anything that looks important and blow the
place to hell. Or if you don't care who's doing the broadcasting,
just shoot a few PPCs at it...
I don't buy this "hunting down" thing, at all.
Ok, I'd admit it's pretty easy, but the professional look of the job
you are doing will affect the opinions of the viewers. And I don't
think you could argue that it would look the same quality.
>>And even if they want to go underground and support the local
>>populace, you're assuming Peter Jennings wants to go on the
>>lamb.
>
>Who needs Peter Jennings? Get that young staffer who
>dreams of being an anchor one day. Preface your programs
>with, "And due to the cold realities of this invasion,
>Peter Jennings was unable to get to this makeshift studio
>tonight." That's if you want to be polite to Peter Jennings.
>"Peter Jennings and the rest of the senior staff didn't
>feel like risking their lives to give you the news tonight,
>so here I am. Bear with me, I was a staffer until yesterday."
Ok, the problem with this is, that if NBC goes underground, where are
they going to get funding? They are a business. They get money through
sponsorship and advertising. If they are "underground" they can't run
ads or sponsorships for obvious reasons.
News media does not do things out of the kindness of their hearts.
Now, there are idealistic journalists who will do things because they
believe in a cause, etc. but they aren't going to have the level of
influence of a nationally known media. The nationally known media is
going to run the propoganda they are told to run (they already do).
I didn't snip this because it's so much context.
Yet the FBI doing this completely and utterly defies the concept of
"pressure from above" at work here. The Clans will notice the result,
being if the guerillas are successful or not. If they are, they will
tell the Prime Minister or the Duke or whoever the planetary head
cheese is, that if he doesn't amend the problem he's out. Things tend
to degenerate into "Get your act together, because if I go down,
you're going with me." If you make management directly responsible for
the results of their subordinates, the management will put alot of
pressure on those lower down. If the lower downs leave, well, it's
just a matter of how deep your pockets are.
>
>>Minister Chavez: And what if I don't help you?
>
>>Star Colonel: Then you will be replaced. It would be in your best
>>interests to help us though. We will improve life for your people, and
>>we will make sure that you personally benefit from cooperation.
>
>>President Chavez: I refuse to do anything for a bunch of scum sucking
>>rat bastards like you.
>
>Hey, PM's that dumb NEED to be replaced. Toadying
>politicians are the first line of deniability for
>an insurgency.
>
>"See? The government is cooperating whole heartedly.
>The PM passes along every order you give."
If rebels are sniping warriors who stop off at the local sex toy shop,
I think the Clanners are gonna realize that the government isn't doing
as they ask. And they are going to make someone responsible.
<snip>
>
>OUTSTANDING! The more intact the local government is,
>the more screwed the Clans are. Nothing helps an
>insurgency like the active aid of a government.
Not really. That means stability for the people. The government cannot
and will not actively aid the rebel movement. Now, under the table,
and via money laundered through pork barrel programs, yes!
Not actively. If they actively do that, the Clanners will, once again,
make people with influence feel consequences.
You don't have to control everyone, just the people in charge.
>
>>And if I was living in 3063, I would be damn glad NOT to be part of
>>the Lyran Alliance (considering it's going to hell in a handbag).
>
>This line of question was centering on the early invasion,
>in 3050-3051 when it was GOOD to live in the FedCom.
>
>>I find the numbers hard to swallow. I think if you're right, then
>>someone goofed somewhere. Because it doesn't add up.
>
>I can have page #'s for you tonight, if you're
>interested, or wholesale quotes. E-mail me at
>cra...@hotmail.com.
Well, I don't doubt what you're telling me, I just think someone at
FASA wasn't watching what they were doing when they put that number in
there.
>
>>And, like I said, if it was that easy to overthrow the
>>Clans, in 10 years+, it should have happened a few times.
>
>Of course, during the Succession Wars, large scale
>conquests should be damn well impossible, too. My
>only conclusion is that planetary governments have
>been well-trained to bend over when a new master
>arrives.
Which was the impression I had as to why there wasn't much in the way
of the Clans being overthrown.
No doubt guerillas could cause hell for the Clans, but I just doubt
that the media could possibly be as involved as you say. I think it
would be just like the underground radio broadcasting in Europe during
WW2. And a government in open defiance just doesn't work. Once again,
back to WW2, what did Hitler do? Put people who he could buy in power
in France...
I'd figure the Clan to Hitler analogy might at least appease you
marginally.
Mike Miller
>>>And if you're underground, they're gonna come hunting you.
>>
>>I'm sure the Clans are hunting some "guerillas,"
>>big targets like the planetary leadership, but
>>they don't have the *manpower* to hunt many guerilla
>>groups. See my quote from Guide to the Clans on the
>>Clans' ability to do any sort of detective work.
>>
>Whih in itself does not make sense. They don't need detectives - they
>jsut need enough genetic material to recostruct the face of the perso
>involved. And they are likely to have the DNA on file anyway -just
>match it.
>
>Clan justice would be quick and harsh, but far likelier to affect the
>real criminal.
In theory, I agree. Anyone with a DNA database and fast
DNA scanners should have no trouble shutting down crime -
that's how I keep players in fear of The Law in Shadowrun.
"The only reason you aren't on death row is because you
haven't gotten on the cops' hit list yet. If they want
you, they will find you."
Then again, there's enforcement problems from lack of
manpower. I KNOW the Clans will quickly ID people who
badmouth them on the internet as well as those who take
potshots at Clan warriors on the streets. But unless
local cops are cooperating (as, apparently, is the case
on former border worlds that the Ghost Bears and Wolves
snapped up), the Clans don't have that manpower.
Your take on that seems to be that FASA screwed up and
there are many more Clan garrison troops than are
indicated.
My take is that it should be trivial to exterminate Clan
garrisons for any planet so motivated.
As for the Clans shutting down the internet, I'd cite the
unfamiliarity issue again. Just because Clan techs have
really high tech computers to play with doesn't give them
instant mastery of (comparatively) creaking, antique IS
computer networks and operating systems. Certainly not
to the extent of viral bombing dissident computers within
a few weeks of conquering a planet.
And indiscriminate viral bombing could well shut down a
future electronic financial network that used the internet
equivalent. Damn, could you see all red hot (lead) loving
the Clan occupation troops would get if they entirely shut
down the internet and took the primary means of fund
transfer out of service? One bank employee sends a dirty
message about the Clans and BANG! a trillion C-bills in
assets head off to electronic Nirvana.
Patrick Walz-Damidaux wrote:
>I wasn4t the one claiming that the Clans might share their
>advances with the spoiled brats of the IS.
Oops. My bad.
Mike Miller, MatE
Jon Ivars
*snip*
The whole discussion about waging guerilla war against the clans is a bit
pointless. The house militaries are also so small they could be easily
wiped out by a concerted guerilla campaign. Even on Earth, possibly with
the highest concentration of military units in the IS, the WoB is fielding
a ground force roughly equivalent to a small power on Earth (something
like the Greece army without most of the infantry). Now consider all the
many planets where even a combined arms battalion is just a dream.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that all the arguments so far about
overwhelming the clans by sheer numbers of guerillas also apply to all
the other factions in the Battletech universe.
--
Jon Ivars Visit my webpages at http://www.abo.fi/~jivars/
"When I am right, I get angry. Churchill gets angry when he
is wrong. So we were often angry at each other." De Gaulle
Mike Miller
>pointless. The house militaries are also so small they could be easily
>wiped out by a concerted guerilla campaign.
Yes. I noted that, too. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't...
how did the poet phrase it?...
"Smokin' crack out of my ass."
It makes a difference in running a guerilla warfare
campaign to know I haven't overlooked some standard
occupation force of tens of thousands of third-line
infantry or something.
[snip]
>Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that all the arguments so far about
>overwhelming the clans by sheer numbers of guerillas also apply to all
>the other factions in the Battletech universe.
Apparently some factions are able to take high losses in
guerilla warfare. Read up on Kessel in the Kurita Sourcebook.
Mike Miller, MatE
Edward Laverty
>
>Clan justice would be quick and harsh, but far likelier to affect the
>real criminal.
In theory, I agree. Anyone with a DNA database and fast
DNA scanners should have no trouble shutting down crime -
that's how I keep players in fear of The Law in Shadowrun.
Then again, there's enforcement problems from lack of
manpower. I KNOW the Clans will quickly ID people who
badmouth them on the internet as well as those who take
potshots at Clan warriors on the streets. But unless
local cops are cooperating (as, apparently, is the case
on former border worlds that the Ghost Bears and Wolves
snapped up), the Clans don't have that manpower.
- True. But that in itself depends on a lot of factors....how actively, for
instance
are the local police forces cooperating being one. There will be resistance
and
there will be cooperation.
Your take on that seems to be that FASA screwed up and
there are many more Clan garrison troops than are
indicated.
- I *hope* they messed up the numbers. By themselves, they are
unrealistic...even by BT standards. Given the numbers of troops in listed
units,
plus those who are counted warriors but not listed it almiost certainly is
wrong.
For example, the Clan paramilitary police is a warrior sub caste,a nd
therefore
counted in the 100k figure. Add in the sheer numbers of Elementals, Aerospace
pilots, vehicle crews, conventional infantry and that 100k is very quickly
used
up.
Starnge for a program that was supposed to ensure sufficient numbers to
invade/effact a return to the IS......
On the other hand, the numbers are possibly correct by FASAs reckoning. You
have implied that you acknowledge this as an error (in a previous posting) but
welcome it because it fits in with your campaign (apologies if I'm wrong.
I prefer to acknowledge it as an error, and assume the Clans have the troops
to
do what they want.(Its more complex than that in my campaign but thgis is the
quick way....)
My take is that it should be trivial to exterminate Clan
garrisons for any planet so motivated.
-My take is that you are probaly right, but only if FASA is correct. Even if
you
are right, any such uprising would be ruthlessly crushed by any of the Clans.
As for the Clans shutting down the internet, I'd cite the
unfamiliarity issue again. Just because Clan techs have
really high tech computers to play with doesn't give them
instant mastery of (comparatively) creaking, antique IS
computer networks and operating systems. Certainly not
to the extent of viral bombing dissident computers within
a few weeks of conquering a planet.
-Yes, it doesn't give them instant mastery. By the same token, it would in
some respects be easier for the Clans to remove it, should it exist int he
first
place. How easy for the IneterNet to operate if the companies go down?
Modularisation outside the Clans can only go so far before economic realities
set in.
And indiscriminate viral bombing could well shut down a
future electronic financial network that used the internet
equivalent. Damn, could you see all red hot (lead) loving
the Clan occupation troops would get if they entirely shut
down the internet and took the primary means of fund
transfer out of service? One bank employee sends a dirty
message about the Clans and BANG! a trillion C-bills in
assets head off to electronic Nirvana.
- Would the Clans really care about such money? And while the InterNet might
be down, how exactly woudl this affect bank or company records?
They might have to work with cash but I can't see this being a problem for the
Clans.
EJL
Mike Miller
>Mike "The Main Man" Miller wrote:
>>And indiscriminate viral bombing could well shut down a
>>future electronic financial network that used the internet
>>equivalent. Damn, could you see all red hot (lead) loving
>>the Clan occupation troops would get if they entirely shut
>>down the internet and took the primary means of fund
>>transfer out of service? One bank employee sends a dirty
>>message about the Clans and BANG! a trillion C-bills in
>>assets head off to electronic Nirvana.
>- Would the Clans really care about such money?
AFAICT, not directly. However, they *should* care if they want
to make the populous as cooperative as possible. Nothing seems
to piss off people like screwing with their money.
Personally, I rarely carry more than $10 in cash. I live on
debit/ATM and credit cards. I also get a direct-deposit pay
check and do a lot of automatic billing. If you crash the
telecommunications network with a virus, I...
a) am out of luck when it comes to buying any needed goods
b) am not getting my paycheck
c) have a lot of angry creditors (utilities, phone, cable)
who aren't getting paid
Extrapolate to a slightly futuristic society that uses more
electronic cash transfers than paper cash and checks for
monetary exchange, and uses its equivalent to an internet
for this exchange, and you can see that shutting down the
internet will cause a lot of aggravation.
Especially if bank/company records aren't affected, and
creditors still know how much is owed to them, and when.
Any decent-sized company is always sending out bills and
receiving payments, a lot of them, daily. Hourly. Shut down
billing because the internet doesn't work and you cause a
paperwork nightmare.
>And while the InterNet might
>be down, how exactly woudl this affect bank or company records?
Depends on how electronic billing interfaces with bank/company
records. If they're well firewalled, no problem. If any virus-
laden ATM can corrupt a bank account, it starts to be a problem.
Ditto for in-company communications that use the internet.
>They might have to work with cash but I can't see this being a
>problem for the Clans.
Oh, no, of course not. The Clans won't directly get slammed.
No payroll to worry about, no student loans, no utility
payments, no monetary debts to collect. No problems until
outraged accountants, unpaid laborers, and hungry children tear
down the gates to the Clan base. :)
And, as I postulated earlier, if the planet's internet also
carries telephone and TV, simply shutting down the internet
is going to take away just about every thing that keeps the
populous pacified. No TV to drool in front of, no way to pay
for video rentals, e-mail can't get through, no on-line games,
can't pay for food, no paycheck...
It gets worse if the internet also handles things like
traffic control and other futuristic computer tasks sci-fi
authors like to postulate.
And when you think that the Clans *don't care* about money,
nor are familiar with how important the internet is to
a modern/near-future IS society, they might figure the
best way to shut down anti-Clan discussion is to "just
shut down the internet" rather than more subtle means like
filters and monitoring.
Really, the results depend on how crudely the Clans stomp
on the internet and how important the internet is to the
planet. It could be very ugly. Or no one would care much -
just another invader exercising their perogative to bully
the locals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
EDWARD LAFFERTY
That's a rather one-side view of the matter. A police chief or
planetary leader is caught between a rock and a hard place.
The hard place:
*Clans, who will kill or fire them if they fail or resist.
*Clans, who can offer a raise and an "attaboy" pat on the back.
*Clans, who number a few hundred on planet.
<And who have replacements, warships, etc off planet>
The rock:
*The local population, who will kill or fire traitors.
*The local population, who can offer a raise, adulation, and treatment
as a hero for resisting the invaders.
*The local population, who may number in the billions.
*Their own underlings, who don't receive nearly the attention from
the Clans as the leader, and thus can much more readily ignore,
'lose', screw up, or draw out any Clan order because they won't
take the heat. Their boss does.
<Your error is in assuming there will be a resistance. Given the
local history, in most cases there will not. In most cases, local
government will get on with doing the job they have always done. >
Sucks to be a local leader in a Clan invasion, but you don't
need much aid from them to kill a few hundred invaders.
Let me phrase the situation this way:
500 Nazis takeover New York City. They order all resistance
members be rounded up.
The NYPD numbers, IIRC, 11,000. How many years did it take
them to lower the murder rate from 2200 per year to 1000 per
year? 15? 20? And they did this with the cooperation of the
people and an intent to 'protect and serve.'
<And how long would it have taken under Clan law and with access to
Clan forensic science and justice systems? We can go from we have a
DNA sample to this is what he looks like relatively quickly. Finding
him is more difficult, but once caught, the evidence would be fairly
incontrovertible to the Clans.>
How long do you think it would take them to 'obey' the
Nazi invaders and round up every resistance member?
Maybe Nazis are a bad example. They're pretty darn mean
guys, if I recall my History channel correctly. The Clans,
of course, offer stability, peace, and great medical
technology (that's why a Clan laborer has an average
lifespan of ~50 years, right?)
<Yes. He just doesn't have access to the technology>
Peace and prosperity are just around the corner, so NYC's
populous won't lift a hand against a few hundred invaders
in their midst, will they? And the NYPD will immediately
leap to aid the invaders in any manner possible, right?
<Would the Canadian army have displayed total superiority over the
American army, destroying every unit sent against them?>
To rephrase that, how hard did the Japanese and Germans
fight to protect their corrupt and evil regimes from the
Allies who liberated them and brought them baseball and
apple pie?
<Very, very hard. And how hard did France fight to protect their
regime from the Nazis. The former had relatively little resistance
but the latter still did little more than prick the Nazis. You can't
judge how a people will fight by their government. To the Japanese,
their way was right. Democracy may offer a lot of individual freedom,
but that doesn't make it right either. There are some who will
doubtless ahve arguments as to why it wis *worse*.>
I really don't think the Clans are offering enough for anyone
to just roll over, but that seems to be the standard reaction
of any but a handful of Inner Sphere planets to invasion. I
have to say I'm a little baffled by it.
<Its because its relatively commonplace and really does not change
things that much. The Clans were better in some respects - their
battles did not affect the locals, they offered the opportunity for
some real improvements and were in may cases no worse than the
Kuritas or Liaos. Why should they fight?>
EJL
J. Calvert
wrote:
<snip>
>There's no particular indication morals in BT
>have "loosened" beyond the 20th Century's. While
>the Magistracy of Canopus is, of course, a stand
>out, BT's future history has seen things like
>a total reversion on women's rights in the Federated
>Suns in the (IIRC) 2300s-2400s to the point they
>couldn't go anywhere without the escort of a male
>relative. ISTR the first Periphery Handbook (or SLSB?)
>mentioning sex with mermaids (in the MoC, again) only
>euphemistically - "And when the little missus is
>away, I'll tell you what fun you could have with
>the mermaids," or something like that.
Well, while there is no real indication, it's pretty obvious to me
that gender equality has arrived, at least outside the Combine. Women
are proliferate through the military, hold high offices in the
government, and in the FC/LA, I've seen no indication of it. The last
three ruling members of the Steiner family have been women.
And just read any sociology book, feminist movements and sexual
"freedom" are linked. A society develops a more lax view of
relationships and it becomes a chain reaction. Anyhow, I don't think
they're as uptight as you suggest they might.
>
>Arranged marriages, wars over Davion heirs hooking
>up with Kuritan heirs (not Omi-Vic, but a little
>incident in the 1st Star League), suicide and murder
>over affairs, dynasty-rocking scandals when a
>First Prince turned out to be queer and his "heir"
>had been supplied by a loyal general, etc. Kuritan
>and Capellan societies seem particularly uptight
>about marriage and sex, but I might be reading too
>much into that.
>
>Ah, wait, wasn't Phelan put a bit offbalance by
>seeing nude Clan female warriors in the shower with
>men?
>
Yes, but I think anyone from our time period probably would be too.
That doesn't really mean anything. I would think men and women would
have seperate facitilities in an Inner Sphere level of culture because
men would basically forward unwanted comments. The Clans don't care
because their open-ness to sex eliminates that outgrowth, and they
have a more filial feel towards members of their sibko.
Off-topic, does anyone else always think "Starship Troopers" when they
are reminded of this scene?
>I think that the average Inner Sphere planet is
>prudish enough that extensively distributed nude
>videos of Clan warriors would cause a loss of
>respect for the invaders, or a loss of something.
Well, I could probably get labeled "prudish" by a good number of
people, but porn just doesn't offend me. Just because I don't approve
of random sex acts doesn't mean I care. It's just naked people. All
you're really doing by a porn smear campaign is publicizing that the
Clans do something that most everyone else also does.
<snip>
>Warriors of Kerensky breaks down the Clan population,
>and gives totals that match up with the sum populations
>of all 30-something Clan home worlds. So 110,500 DOES
>represent the total warrior population of ALL clans,
>not just one. I don't have the page numbers handy.
>
I don't have the book, but...that just seems excessively small to me.
Even with the limits on MechWarriors by available material, I would
think something like Elementals would be in higher need, simply as
your guards.
<snip again>
>>Also, could they even man all those warships and dropships
>>with only that many people?
>
>Techs. I'm pretty certain most Clan dropships/warships
>are crewed by techs. They're just battle taxis for the
>"real" warriors to Clan thinking, so there's no harm
>in crewing those ships with techs. Heck, dropships were
>non-combatants to the Clans in 3050...
>
True, but I'd think they'd want good numbers of Elementals or
something to prevent boarders from capturing the ship.
>>That number, even if it is from FASA, does not sound right at all to
>>me. If it is from them, then somebody in the editor's department
>>wasn't doing their job, because it works against all the fiction. Not
>>to mention the only limit on the number of warriors the Clans can have
>>is how many they can put in a vat. I would think they could crank out
>>scores of warriors, IF they wanted to.
>
>2 limits: How many they can crank out of vats, and how many
>they can train.
>
>It takes ~15 years to get a minimally trained Clan warrior.
>That is an enormous investment in time and effort. Despite
>the vats, the Clans still only have 1.4 billion or so
>subjects as of 3050 - I have two cites (Kuritan Sourcebook
>& MW 3rd edition) giving the Inner Sphere a THOUSAND times
>that population.
>
With the high degree of standardization and the fact that the
investment is mere turn-around time, I wouldn't think that would be
too limiting. I mean, the training force is just the old Warriors.
Considering that the Clans place the military so high above everything
else, I would think they could do something about that.
>If I had a 1000:1 population advantage, I'd go for
>"6 weeks of boot camp and 2 years of 'Mechs/fighters/
>tanks/rifles for Dummies'." Heck, if I just wanted
>a few hundred thousand guerilla soldiers that could
>blend into the local populous, 6 weeks of boot camp
>should be plenty.
>
I don't doubt that. That's always struck me funny: What the hell are
the Crusaders gonna DO once they take Terra?
<snipage again...would you believe it>
Not necessarily. By the same token, if you're talking about the
Lyrans, think of the red tape. There's plenty of extravagent
non-necessary expenditures within the military alone. Not to mention
nobles wanting money just to up their own wealth. Probably certain
universities or institutions get chunks of that money too.
(paritcularly sore issue for those here in NC actually)
Just think for a second. If you live in the U.S., just consider how
many programs or things the government funds that in no way benefits
you?
There are SO MANY groups just comitted to watching the pork in the
U.S. government, it's insane.
I mean, there's lots of it too, people on more affluent worlds, such
as those you are talking about probably have to contribute wealth to
help feed those people on the backwater planets, etc.
To say that taxes = positive changes from the government? I just can't
possibly agree with this.
>And therefore, I don't think tax cuts aret really
>a card the Clans can wave at the captive populous
>to make them happy.
>
>>Even then, the Clans have alot of technology to offer. They have alot
>>in the way of drugs, etc. and the MechWarrior material we have pretty
>>much shows that if you loose a limb they just grow you a new one.
>
>As I recall, one of the core elements of the US "Hearts
>and Minds" thing in Vietnam was providing decent medical
>services to the South Vietnamese. Certainly much better
>than what Vietnam could afford on its own.
>
>
That was a different type of situation. We were basically sticking our
noses in a civil war. And those people were very poor. What good is
being cured from a disease if you're going to starve to death a month
later?
>>>I don't see that as being publically broadcasted. In a society as
>>>rigid as the Clans, talk like that would immediately get you shut
>>>down.
>>
>>Shut down what station where with what troops? How
>>do they shut down this "broadcast" over the internet?
>>Can they even find which of millions of interlinked
>>computers it's coming from?
>>
>>What if it's pre-recorded and distributed from 200
>>servers across the planet?
>
>>You're making the assumption that the origin is hidden.
>
>Not really. I'm assuming the Clans don't have the
>manpower to hunt down a lot of web-TV stations. Or
>more specifically, web servers.
>
>How many local TV stations (studios) do you think
>there are in the US, pop. 281 million?
>
Alot. But that doesn't matter. It dosen't take a "lot of manpower".
Hell, if someone was sanctioned by the government to destroy TV
stations, all it would take is a moron with a phone book and a bag of
fertilizer.
It can't possibly be that hard.
The point is, that the national/international media is a business and
their places of operation are well publicized. It does not take any
effort to take over or blow up a building if you know exactly where it
is and you have a highly trained military force.
You stick a star of Elementals in a dropship or shuttle, it takes you
minimal time to get to the station. They go in, they clear everyone
out of the building, sieze anything that looks important and blow the
place to hell. Or if you don't care who's doing the broadcasting,
just shoot a few PPCs at it...
I don't buy this "hunting down" thing, at all.
>>Sure there's stuff like pirate signals, etc, but it's not on the kind
Ok, I'd admit it's pretty easy, but the professional look of the job
you are doing will affect the opinions of the viewers. And I don't
think you could argue that it would look the same quality.
>>And even if they want to go underground and support the local
>>populace, you're assuming Peter Jennings wants to go on the
>>lamb.
>
>Who needs Peter Jennings? Get that young staffer who
>dreams of being an anchor one day. Preface your programs
>with, "And due to the cold realities of this invasion,
>Peter Jennings was unable to get to this makeshift studio
>tonight." That's if you want to be polite to Peter Jennings.
>"Peter Jennings and the rest of the senior staff didn't
>feel like risking their lives to give you the news tonight,
>so here I am. Bear with me, I was a staffer until yesterday."
Ok, the problem with this is, that if NBC goes underground, where are
they going to get funding? They are a business. They get money through
sponsorship and advertising. If they are "underground" they can't run
ads or sponsorships for obvious reasons.
News media does not do things out of the kindness of their hearts.
Now, there are idealistic journalists who will do things because they
believe in a cause, etc. but they aren't going to have the level of
influence of a nationally known media. The nationally known media is
going to run the propoganda they are told to run (they already do).
>>
I didn't snip this because it's so much context.
Yet the FBI doing this completely and utterly defies the concept of
"pressure from above" at work here. The Clans will notice the result,
being if the guerillas are successful or not. If they are, they will
tell the Prime Minister or the Duke or whoever the planetary head
cheese is, that if he doesn't amend the problem he's out. Things tend
to degenerate into "Get your act together, because if I go down,
you're going with me." If you make management directly responsible for
the results of their subordinates, the management will put alot of
pressure on those lower down. If the lower downs leave, well, it's
just a matter of how deep your pockets are.
>
>>Minister Chavez: And what if I don't help you?
>
>>Star Colonel: Then you will be replaced. It would be in your best
>>interests to help us though. We will improve life for your people, and
>>we will make sure that you personally benefit from cooperation.
>
>>President Chavez: I refuse to do anything for a bunch of scum sucking
>>rat bastards like you.
>
>Hey, PM's that dumb NEED to be replaced. Toadying
>politicians are the first line of deniability for
>an insurgency.
>
>"See? The government is cooperating whole heartedly.
>The PM passes along every order you give."
If rebels are sniping warriors who stop off at the local sex toy shop,
I think the Clanners are gonna realize that the government isn't doing
as they ask. And they are going to make someone responsible.
<snip>
>
>OUTSTANDING! The more intact the local government is,
>the more screwed the Clans are. Nothing helps an
>insurgency like the active aid of a government.
Not really. That means stability for the people. The government cannot
and will not actively aid the rebel movement. Now, under the table,
and via money laundered through pork barrel programs, yes!
Not actively. If they actively do that, the Clanners will, once again,
make people with influence feel consequences.
You don't have to control everyone, just the people in charge.
>
>>And if I was living in 3063, I would be damn glad NOT to be part of
>>the Lyran Alliance (considering it's going to hell in a handbag).
>
>This line of question was centering on the early invasion,
>in 3050-3051 when it was GOOD to live in the FedCom.
>
>>I find the numbers hard to swallow. I think if you're right, then
>>someone goofed somewhere. Because it doesn't add up.
>
>I can have page #'s for you tonight, if you're
>interested, or wholesale quotes. E-mail me at
>cra...@hotmail.com.
Well, I don't doubt what you're telling me, I just think someone at
FASA wasn't watching what they were doing when they put that number in
there.
>
>>And, like I said, if it was that easy to overthrow the
>>Clans, in 10 years+, it should have happened a few times.
>
>Of course, during the Succession Wars, large scale
>conquests should be damn well impossible, too. My
>only conclusion is that planetary governments have
>been well-trained to bend over when a new master
>arrives.
Which was the impression I had as to why there wasn't much in the way
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
> >pointless. The house militaries are also so small they could be easily
> >wiped out by a concerted guerilla campaign.
>
> Yes. I noted that, too. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't...
> how did the poet phrase it?...
>
> "Smokin' crack out of my ass."
Must have been some American poet :)
I have the impression that BT suffers of a "split personality". On the one
hand it was concepted as "Dark Ages and Knights in Space" on the other hand
you have inventions like mass production and "nationalism" which renders the
feudal system rather useless.
> It makes a difference in running a guerilla warfare
> campaign to know I haven't overlooked some standard
> occupation force of tens of thousands of third-line
> infantry or something.
>
> [snip]
I don´t know WHY there´s no infantry force in such numbers. It can´t be that
taxing for a population of some billions to support 50.000 riflemen (to keep
it simple).
I propose (this means: I am wildly guessing and open to any form of
criticism) the following: In contrast to the modern battlefield where a well
placed AT-team (2-3 men) can take out a tank from some distance armor in the
BT universe is so advanced (or better phrased: the weapons are so
ludicrously weak) that an infantry platoon (28 men) doesn´t stand a chance
against 'mechs or even tanks. In fact it´s the same situation as in the
middle ages before longbows /crossbows or coherent infantry formations were
available or known.
Even within a city infantry won´t be able to put a 'mech out of commission
without a lot of luck and perhaps a costly anti-mech training. And even the
IS doesn´t like doing battle in cities as it tends to destroy the very
industry you want to conquer/protect.
So what´s the point of lot´s of infantry in the BT future? Except for
battling enemy infantry or being a cheap and cost-effective gapfiller
there´s not much sense in investing huge lots of money in infantry. The
enemy is not likely to invade your planet with a huge number of infantry as
he only has limited dropship/jumpship capacity and prefers transporting a
lance of 'mechs to transporting two companies of infantry. So fielding a
huge infantry force is not economical. It would only make sense if the
infantry was trained to wage a guerilla war as soon as the planet is
conquered. Appearently, this hasn´t happened too often.
And even though some worlds in the IS are rather well populated I´d guess
that the industrial output is rather low. If 80% of the population are busy
with growing crops to feed the rest of the population, there´s not much left
for industrial production. And even if there´s a rather impressive output
(industrail or agrarian), a lot of it will have to be exported to less
developed worlds. Which doesn´t leave as much as you´d expect.
> >Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that all the arguments so far about
> >overwhelming the clans by sheer numbers of guerillas also apply to all
> >the other factions in the Battletech universe.
>
> Apparently some factions are able to take high losses in
> guerilla warfare. Read up on Kessel in the Kurita Sourcebook.
Once again I am hampered by the German translation of which I don´t know
whether it is accurate. But it states that
- House Kurita provoked an increase of terror/liberation acts by making
Kessel a prefecture
- the ISF is claiming (rightly or simply to cover their arses) that Loki is
supporting the guerillas
- the number of killed guerillos, bureaucrats and soldiers since the
beginning of the 3rd SW (2867-3028) goes into the hundreds of thousands.
I.e.: This number includes the killed underground activists. I am not really
sure about my numbers concerning Vietnam but IIRC it was something like
60.000 killed US soldiers vs. over 1 million of killed vietcong-guerillos +
2 millions of killed civilians. So by saying that the number of killed
Americans, guerillos and civilians during the Vietnam war goes into the
millions I am as precise as the statement about Kessel. It´s not clear how
many losses the DC took. If it´s comparable to Vietnam (60.000 vs. 1.1
millions) and we assume 900.000 combattants (excluding the bureaucrats) were
killed the DC lost ca. 50.000 soldiers over the course of 150+ years. An
average of 333 soldiers a year died on Kessel. I assume that this number
should be affordable even to House Kurita. How many British soldiers died in
Northern Ireland and how big is the populace of the UK compared to the DC?
> Mike Miller, MatE
Regards
Patrick
J. Calvert
<walz...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote:
<snip>
>
>I don´t know WHY there´s no infantry force in such numbers. It can´t be that
>taxing for a population of some billions to support 50.000 riflemen (to keep
>it simple).
>I propose (this means: I am wildly guessing and open to any form of
>criticism) the following: In contrast to the modern battlefield where a well
>placed AT-team (2-3 men) can take out a tank from some distance armor in the
>BT universe is so advanced (or better phrased: the weapons are so
>ludicrously weak) that an infantry platoon (28 men) doesn´t stand a chance
>against 'mechs or even tanks. In fact it´s the same situation as in the
>middle ages before longbows /crossbows or coherent infantry formations were
>available or known.
>
If you want to draw another parallel, heavy cavalry was effective in
the Middle Ages because of the SSF (Scared Sh*tless Factor). Charging
horses tends to make people on foot panic. I mean, he's ALOT bigger
than you and he can just run you over. And when it's running after
you, it always seems bigger. The movie "Braveheart" shows this to some
respect as does "Gladiator", plus I just like movies with swords and
lots of dismemberment. In both movies, the central character, Wallace
and Maximus, at one point are faced by cavalry, and they have to fight
their group that is in panic. They have to be very authoritative to
get the men NOT to loose control and stick with the plan. Back in the
real world, I believe there was a battle where French knights were
slaughtered in huge numbers because of the use of the pike. Why?
Because the French knights were used to having the PBIs scurry in
terror, because whoever was in front of the formation was going to
die. Supposedly, it was the use of the pike to stop the invincibility
of cavalry running through formations that allowed Alexander the Great
to do so well.
Additionally, study some cases on police crowd control actions. They
still use mounted officers, even in this day of the Internet. Why?
Because people will back down from a man on horseback.
Psychologically, they see the horse and man as one.
What does this have to do with anything?
A Battlemech has the same effect. It's big, it's scary. Even though a
lot of you could bring it down, no one will do it because everyone is
afraid of being the guy who has to die.
I mean, that's probably why there isn't anything about planetary
militias in the Field Manuals, they are inconsequential. While there
is no shortage of men willing to die for their homes and families,
they don't do much.
"Well, congratulations people, you've been drafted to fight for your
homeland! The Lyran state can't always send us the big army, so this
time around we'll have to do it ourselves. What's your question, son?"
"Is it the Snakes again?"
"You betcha. Now, don't be afraid just because that guy THINKS he's
Yojimbo reborn in a 65 ton chunk of steel with legs and a buncha
missles. I mean, they can't stop us all."
"Uh...did he say buncha missles? Dude, we've only got rifles."
Anyhow, farm boys especially, hell, anyone in their right mind would
be more than likely to freeze up or panic in the face of BattleMechs.
I would say part of the reason we see so little about infantry is
A) they can't hurt other units that easily
B) Even the Green infantry have to be very well trained infantry and
not the typical draftee. It would have to take alot of conditioning
just to get troops not to piss their pants at the sight of a
BattleMech.
> Even within a city infantry won´t be able to put a 'mech out of commission
>without a lot of luck and perhaps a costly anti-mech training. And even the
>IS doesn´t like doing battle in cities as it tends to destroy the very
>industry you want to conquer/protect.
>
>So what´s the point of lot´s of infantry in the BT future? Except for
>battling enemy infantry or being a cheap and cost-effective gapfiller
>there´s not much sense in investing huge lots of money in infantry. The
>enemy is not likely to invade your planet with a huge number of infantry as
>he only has limited dropship/jumpship capacity and prefers transporting a
>lance of 'mechs to transporting two companies of infantry. So fielding a
>huge infantry force is not economical. It would only make sense if the
>infantry was trained to wage a guerilla war as soon as the planet is
>conquered. Appearently, this hasn´t happened too often.
>
I would say because guerilla war is not exactly a good option. It
tends to get messy for everyone. And heaven forbid you goof it and
accidentally kill some civilians.
I would think infantry isn't proliferate because they don't count 16
year olds with bolt action rifles. They only count the professional
soldiers who are trained not to crack in the face of BattleMechs, etc.
There's very little point in calling up the draft if you know there's
nothing you can do. Sending the populace off to die against them if
there is NO hope just hurts the people in the end.
You may laugh about "loco locust drivers" but I mean, to a buncha
grunts, a Locust is a pretty scary thing. Considering this is talking
about the Clans originally, just think if a light/medium star of Omnis
reconfigured with mostly machine guns and A-pods.
Mike Miller
>Mike Miller wrote:
>>That's a rather one-side view of the matter. A police chief or
>>planetary leader is caught between a rock and a hard place.
>>The hard place:
>>*Clans, who will kill or fire them if they fail or resist.
>>*Clans, who can offer a raise and an "attaboy" pat on the back.
>>*Clans, who number a few hundred on planet.
>And who have replacements, warships, etc off planet
About 6500 replacements and, yes, warships. Warships are very
poor weapons to take & hold ground. They can only blow s*** up
or transport in more troops. Like air power today.
>>The rock:
>>*The local population, who will kill or fire traitors.
>>*The local population, who can offer a raise, adulation, and treatment
>>as a hero for resisting the invaders.
>>*The local population, who may number in the billions.
>>*Their own underlings, who don't receive nearly the attention from
>>the Clans as the leader, and thus can much more readily ignore,
>>'lose', screw up, or draw out any Clan order because they won't
>>take the heat. Their boss does.
>Your error is in assuming there will be a resistance.
I'm not assuming there will ALWAYS be resistance. I'm well
aware that plenty of IS planets just rolled over, especially
border planets. Hence the success of the Ghost Bears and Wolves:
they got the border planets.
>Given the
>local history, in most cases there will not. In most cases, local
>government will get on with doing the job they have always done.
I was addressing the minority cases, where resistance DOES occur,
and that there seems to be an inadequate incidence of resistance
on occupied worlds.
>>The NYPD numbers, IIRC, 11,000. How many years did it take
>>them to lower the murder rate from 2200 per year to 1000 per
>>year? 15? 20? And they did this with the cooperation of the
>>people and an intent to 'protect and serve.'
>And how long would it have taken under Clan law and with access to
>Clan forensic science and justice systems?
Clan forensic science and justice systems are apparently poor
according to Way of the Clans. I should say, they have poor
standards and are not impartial.
>We can go from we have a
>DNA sample to this is what he looks like relatively quickly. Finding
>him is more difficult, but once caught, the evidence would be fairly
>incontrovertible to the Clans.
Certainly. It's catching him that's the issue. I've said elsewhere
that anyone with decent databases and quick DNA scanners can
quickly identify people at the scene of crime, and I do just
that in Shadowrun. However, in Shadowrun, I have police forces
numbering in the thousands per metroplex. The contracted police
corporation for Seattle is probably larger than an entire Clan's
warrior caste, and they have extensive networks of informants.
The Clans would have - at the most, early on - a few hundred
warriors on planet who are probably not skilled with establishing
informant networks, tracking down fugitives, etc.
If the local police don't cooperate, the Clan garrison is in
deep trouble.
>>Peace and prosperity are just around the corner, so NYC's
>>populous won't lift a hand against a few hundred invaders
>>in their midst, will they? And the NYPD will immediately
>>leap to aid the invaders in any manner possible, right?
>Would the Canadian army have displayed total superiority over the
>American army, destroying every unit sent against them?
Of course, otherwise Canada couldn't have occupied NYC. :)
The standard refrain for the populous gradually falling in
love with the Clans is that the Clans offer wondrous
technology, especially medical technology, to the downtrodden
feudal-like serfs of the IS.
My point was: sometimes that doesn't matter. Hence the
Canadian invasion of NYC example. Canada may offer great,
cheap health care, but do you think the people of NYC would
fall in love with Canada because of health care AFTER
Canada invaded and blew up the US Army?
My other point, since deleted, was that Clan laborers
had short lives because - as you said - because they did
not have ACCESS to the technology. The Clans don't waste
it on laborers. Nor will they waste it on a subjugated
IS population, losing that method of pacifing the
population.
>>I really don't think the Clans are offering enough for anyone
>>to just roll over, but that seems to be the standard reaction
>>of any but a handful of Inner Sphere planets to invasion. I
>>have to say I'm a little baffled by it.
><Its because its relatively commonplace and really does not change
>things that much. The Clans were better in some respects - their
>battles did not affect the locals, they offered the opportunity for
>some real improvements and were in may cases no worse than the
>Kuritas or Liaos. Why should they fight?>
You just said why yourself:
>[How hard did Germans, Japs fight against 'better governments'?] Very,
>very hard. And how hard did France fight to protect their regime from
>the Nazis. The former had relatively little resistance but the latter
>still did little more than prick the Nazis. You can't judge how a
>people will fight by their government. To the Japanese, their way was
>right.
Exactly. This is my point: sometimes people will fight
for ANY government cuz it's theirs, right or wrong. And
they usually think their government is the right one.
It didn't matter to the Japanese that the Americans had more
freedom. It doesn't matter that Clans offer a better government
for some planets. People fight invaders. And sometimes they
don't, as France illustrates.
Thus I'm baffled why there weren't MORE rebellions and guerilla
warfare against the Clans *when they have such low numbers*,
and why there was so little success from the rebellions that
did occur.
The border planets I can understand. Another day, another leader,
so what? I suppose the answer is FASA screwed up, perhaps
intentionally. If planets fold easy, then it's possible in BT
(the game of war-torn empires pounding each other into rubble)
for planets to be conquered with small forces.
Mike Miller, MatE
Danny Frost
> I don愒 know WHY there愀 no infantry force in such numbers. It can愒 be that
> taxing for a population of some billions to support 50.000 riflemen (to keep
> it simple).
<snip>
I'm guessing it's a holdover from the effects of the 1st and 2nd
Succession Wars.
Back then, if you couldn't hold the planet, you just nuked the **** out
of it. I picture the strategy switched to letting them hold the planet
if you couldn't take it in open warfare in order to protect the civilian
population.
-----------------------------------------------
- Currently Reading - "Babylon 5 - Armies of Light and Dark," by P.
David
- "If the ship was sealed shut (sails and all are inside) and an
artificial wind created inside the pushes toward and onto the
sail, then the ship can move too."
HEROChip - 12.19.99
-----------------------------------------------
Michael Miller
>Lyrans, think of the red tape. There's plenty of extravagent
>non-necessary expenditures within the military alone. Not to mention
>nobles wanting money just to up their own wealth. Probably certain
>universities or institutions get chunks of that money too.
>(paritcularly sore issue for those here in NC actually)
And, as I pointed out, there were several hundred other
worlds to pick up anything extra one planet couldn't handle.
One planet was able to handle the basics for a small portion
of its tax base.
And one planet DID handle the red tape, which only costs the
labor to process it. That's why I factored in all 10 million
Lyran "soldiers" into the payroll.
The point was: with several hundred planets in a Great
House, the payment to the House from one planet is
insignificant. The Clans gain nothing by cutting the
taxes shipped to Tharkad or Luthien.
>You stick a star of Elementals in a dropship or shuttle, it takes you
>minimal time to get to the station. They go in, they clear everyone
>out of the building, sieze anything that looks important and blow the
>place to hell. Or if you don't care who's doing the broadcasting,
>just shoot a few PPCs at it...
A star of Elementals is probably 25% of your garrison
force: 25 warriors. How many places can you spare that?
How many places go unwatched? (Not many, because you
can't watch many.)
In the mean time, what sort of negative publicity are
you getting among 2 billion people for not tolerating
a little nasty speech against you?
And what happens when there's a trap waiting for your
shuttle or star of Elementals? "They go in, they clear
everyone out of the building, sieze anything that looks
important and" the place blows to hell. Several tons
of diesel and fertilizer in the basement, and the
Elementals were polite enough to evacuate the building
first.
>I don't buy this "hunting down" thing, at all.
As I said, it ain't hard to find a station or blow it up.
It isn't hard to replace one: a digital camera and
internet access will do.
"Hunting down" individual guerillas is another matter.
>Ok, the problem with this is, that if NBC goes underground,
>where are they going to get funding?
1) NBC's executives run it as a business. Reporters can
get damn stupid about endangering their lives to "get
the news out," and dumping reports onto the net isn't
very expensive.
2) So a station was blown up. Were NBC's advertizement
clients blown up, too? Or can the "underground" studios
slip in some product placement? ("Brought to you by Pepsi:
the drink of Patriots.")
>Yet the FBI doing this completely and utterly defies the concept of
>"pressure from above" at work here.
Yes, exactly. See:
1) "Frag the Lieutenant,"
2) "Oustered by the board,"
3) "Mutiny,"
4) "Blue flu,"
5) "Work slowdown,"
6) "Telling your boss to f*** off,"
7) "Strike."
Once you decide your superior is incompetent, traitorous,
doesn't know what he's babbling about, or find some other
excuse to ignore them, that "pressure" disappears. The boss
becomes a ranting old man, quite pathetic really.
Haven't you ever seen your boss get riled and start
bellowing orders that only make things worse, so you
ignore them and keep doing your job so you actually finish
the task at hand? Just nod, agree with him, and back away
slowly so you can get back to work...
Yeah. "Pressure from above" only matters if you give
a damn about "above." Assuming another leader appears
(or everyone sticks to their "duty", which does not
involve consorting with the invaders), the government
(agency in question) will avoid collapse.
And what's your boss going to do when you keep putting
that axe murderer case ahead of the pursuit of the
"terrorists" (guerillas)? There's a lot more of you
than there of him and his Clan masters.
That's a good point. The boss should be damn well terrified
of any refusal to obey him/his Clan masters. There ARE
a lot more citizens than Clan warriors.
Oh, yeah, no doubt in some - maybe a majority - of
cases the existing government will bend right over
for the invaders. But the opposite DOES happen, too.
What are the Clan troops going to do when the police
take their time arresting rebels and otherwise
execute a work slowdown on all matters pertaining
to consorting with the Clans? Kill them all? Have
some gruesome, frightful executions?
Mike Miller, MatE
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Stephen Tempest
>What are the Clan troops going to do when the police
>take their time arresting rebels and otherwise
>execute a work slowdown on all matters pertaining
>to consorting with the Clans? Kill them all? Have
>some gruesome, frightful executions?
Cut their pay. Meanwhile, those police who *are* catching rebels are
rewarded with extra money, flashy high-tech gadgets, and a free
operation or course of drugs to cure that bad back or twinge of
arthritis. All well-publicised, of course.
Clan leaders have been engaging in cut-throat, 17-a-side politics for
250 years. They aren't *all* bloodthirsty idiots - the Smoke Jaguars
and Ice Hellions might be, but the Wolves probably understand divide-
and-rule and carrot-and-stick policies better than most Inner Sphere
politicians.
Stephen
Mike Miller
>Mike Miller wrote:
>>What are the Clan troops going to do when the police
>>take their time arresting rebels and otherwise
>>execute a work slowdown on all matters pertaining
>>to consorting with the Clans? Kill them all? Have
>>some gruesome, frightful executions?
>Cut their pay. Meanwhile, those police who *are* catching rebels are
>rewarded with extra money, flashy high-tech gadgets, and a free
>operation or course of drugs to cure that bad back or twinge of
>arthritis. All well-publicised, of course.
I addressed this more generally earlier, and more specifically
on leaders, but in general:
The Clans aren't the only ones who can bring pressure to bear on
reluctant government workers.
A successful rebellion can bring enormous pressure to bear on
possible collaborators to join the patriots, both with carrots
and sticks. Patriot groups can use strong arm tactics, too,
just like the Clans. They can also play nice: Monetary rewards
or compensation for lost wages, new jobs if the Clans fire you,
medals, public adoration for being heroes, etc.
Aside from orbital bombardment and spiffy technology, the
Clans have no monopoly on any tactic for swaying the loyalty
of government workers (or any part of the populous).
What the Clans lack is numbers - do you worry about 100 Clan
warriors ordering your paycheck cut, or 1,000,000 fellow
city dwellers identifying you as public enemy #1?
The Clans also lack the edge of patriotism if a rebellion
has any significant popular following. Be loyal to 100 invaders
or 1 billion of your own kind? Would you be more proud of a
medal the invaders gave you for successfully arresting your
fellow citizens or would you be more proud of a medal
awarded by fellow citizens for fighting the invaders?
>Clan leaders have been engaging in cut-throat, 17-a-side politics for
>250 years. They aren't *all* bloodthirsty idiots - the Smoke Jaguars
>and Ice Hellions might be, but the Wolves probably understand divide-
>and-rule and carrot-and-stick policies better than most Inner Sphere
>politicians.
Oh, right, of course. I do not mean to give them impression
that I think the Clans *only* use orbital bombardment and public
executions to suppress rebels. I'm well aware of how helpful
playing nice with the locals has gotten the Ghost Bears and
Wolves.
It's just anything less than brutal tactics can readily
be matched by "the good guys" without costing them their
"good guy" status. And if the guerillas are popular, they
can easily villify anyone who helps the Clans, especially
if they take Clan rewards.
Mike Miller, MatE
Robert Brim
need/want to earn a medal from anyone else. Citizens do not award medals,
governments do.
"Mike Miller" <mmi...@ddlomni.com> wrote in message
news:GFEIKELFFJJCHDADAG...@ddlomni.com...
>
> The Clans also lack the edge of patriotism if a rebellion
> has any significant popular following. Be loyal to 100 invaders
> or 1 billion of your own kind? Would you be more proud of a
> medal the invaders gave you for successfully arresting your
> fellow citizens or would you be more proud of a medal
> awarded by fellow citizens for fighting the invaders?
>
> Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller
>So what4s the point of lot4s of infantry in the BT future? Except for
>battling enemy infantry or being a cheap and cost-effective gapfiller
>there4s not much sense in investing huge lots of money in infantry.
No, no - infantry isn't a cost-effective gap filler. It's very
expensive, especially anti-mech trained units, and very fragile.
Salaries are brutal, too. I'm not certain I'd even use it against
standing units of enemy infantry.
But it does have 4 outstanding values in BT:
1) Infantry equipment is easy to produce even with the battered
industrial base of the Inner Sphere and Periphery, unless you
want to get fancy (lasers, jump packs, ECM/camo gear, etc.)
2) Easy to train and find trainers for compared to mech jockeys
and fighter drivers.
3) Easy and quick to raise and deploy.
4) Standard infantry units involve a lot of bodies that can be
in a lot of places *at the same time*, meaning they're the ideal
occupation force.
For polite occupation forces (i.e. those that won't level
buildings to get one resistance fighter or won't kill rioting
mobs), infantry is worth its weight in gold. A mech can't go
in a building (without ruining it) - infantry can. A mech can't
chase rebels in sewers - infantry can. A mech can't club a
crowd into submission - infantry can. A mech can't pull a
single rebel out of his home in the middle of the night without
alerting the neighbors - infantry can. A mech can't watch
more than a few local government functionaries to make
sure they're cooperating - infantry can.
Infantry is so damn useful for occupying a conquered planet.
Every would-be galactic conquerer should have lots and lots
of infantry.
>Once again I am hampered by the German translation of which I don4t know
>whether it is accurate. But it states that
>- House Kurita provoked an increase of terror/liberation acts by making
>Kessel a prefecture
>- the ISF is claiming (rightly or simply to cover their arses) that Loki is
>supporting the guerillas
>- the number of killed guerillos, bureaucrats and soldiers since the
>beginning of the 3rd SW (2867-3028) goes into the hundreds of thousands.
"Since then [making Kessel a prefecture capital] the toll
in freedom fighters, soldiers, and petty bureaucrats killed here
has climbed into the hundreds of thousands."
The way I read it, resistance started prior to Kessel
becoming a prefecture capital. However, the death toll
was only noted for the period after it became the capital.
>I.e.: This number includes the killed underground activists. I am not
really
>sure about my numbers concerning Vietnam but IIRC it was something like
>60.000 killed US soldiers vs. over 1 million of killed vietcong-guerillos +
>2 millions of killed civilians. So by saying that the number of killed
>Americans, guerillos and civilians during the Vietnam war goes into the
>millions I am as precise as the statement about Kessel. It4s not clear how
>many losses the DC took. If it4s comparable to Vietnam (60.000 vs. 1.1
>millions) and we assume 900.000 combattants (excluding the bureaucrats)
were
>killed the DC lost ca. 50.000 soldiers over the course of 150+ years. An
>average of 333 soldiers a year died on Kessel.
333 soldiers in a year is probably enough to wipe out a Clan garrison,
neglecting reinforcements.
However, I think you should count the "petty bureaucrats" as Kuritan,
not freedom fighters. I get the impression the petty bureaucrats are
the ones running the occupation government on Kessel as well as operating
the prefecture-level government. I mean, *I'd* import administrators
to run a military government for a recently captured planet. You
can't depend on the locals.
And if the petty bureaucrats are locals, not imports, that says something
about the success of guerillas in purging their government of the
disloyal members of the population.
>I assume that this number should be affordable even to House Kurita.
"Second in size to the Federated Suns, the Draconis Combine is more
than 140 by 145 parsecs wide. Inside this vast realm are TRILLIONS
of people..."
Oh, yeah, a few hundred thousand dead? That's nothing. But it's
refreshingly larger than the Clan warrior caste.
Mike Miller, MatE
Michael Miller
>Some nitpicks: I do not think anyone in history was
>motivated by the need/want to earn a medal from anyone else.
1) I disagree. I do think some uptight gloryhounds sought
medals, particularly prior to actually encountering warfare.
2) I was speaking of medals as rewards for services rendered
due to other motivations.
>Citizens do not award medals, governments do.
I was, again, speaking generically. If part or all of
the government backs the rebellion, it can very well
award medals.
Alternately, the guerillas may decide any part of the
government working with the invaders is traitorous and
therefore not the "real" government, thus making the
guerillas are free to make their own government and
mint all the shiny tin medals they want. See: China
and Taiwan, USA & CSA, etc.
Finally, the government (at the behest of the citizens)
can very well award medals after the rebellion is over
and the Clan invaders are pushing up daisies.
Medals approved by billions of adoring citizens (though
obviously issued by the government) are unlikely to be
something the Clans can match.
"We 100 warriors want to say thanks for oppressing your
friends and neighbors in the name of us foreign invaders.
You're a really swell guy. Here's a shiny medal. Go
forth and be proud."
Naw...
Sola...@aol.com
<cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>1) I disagree. I do think some uptight gloryhounds sought
>medals, particularly prior to actually encountering warfare.
Napoleon was BIG on giving out medals. He used it as a moral/motivational
booster for his troops and there where people who went out to win those
medals.
>2) I was speaking of medals as rewards for services rendered
>due to other motivations.
>
>>Citizens do not award medals, governments do.
>
>I was, again, speaking generically. If part or all of
>the government backs the rebellion, it can very well
>award medals.
>
But only if they win! :) sm
Scene: Early China, Situation: A group of draftee's stuck in the mud.
1st Draftee: What's the penalty for being late?
2nd Draftee: Death.
1st Draftee: What's the penalty for rebellion?
2nd Draftee: Death.
1st Draftee: Guess what? Were LATE!
Guess what happened next?
Taken from "The Cartoon History of the Universe #2" by Larry Gonick.
Michael Miller
>Mike "Allergies+Record Pollen Count = Hates Life" Miller wrote:
>
>>I was, again, speaking generically. If part or all of
>>the government backs the rebellion, it can very well
>>award medals.
>>
>But only if they win! :) sm
Aw, anyone can pass out medals at anytime. But
they'll only mean something to the grandkids if
a lot of people approve of them and, as you said,
you win.
Otherwise the medals are just something that'll
make the grandkids turn you over to the good and
righteous Clan rulers of the planet. :)
Edward Lafferty
>
> The Clans aren't the only ones who can bring pressure to bear on
> reluctant government workers.
>
> A successful rebellion can bring enormous pressure to bear on
> possible collaborators to join the patriots, both with carrots
> and sticks. Patriot groups can use strong arm tactics, too,
> just like the Clans. They can also play nice: Monetary rewards
> or compensation for lost wages, new jobs if the Clans fire you,
> medals, public adoration for being heroes, etc.
>
> Aside from orbital bombardment and spiffy technology, the
> Clans have no monopoly on any tactic for swaying the loyalty
> of government workers (or any part of the populous).
>
> What the Clans lack is numbers - do you worry about 100 Clan
> warriors ordering your paycheck cut, or 1,000,000 fellow
> city dwellers identifying you as public enemy #1?
>
Which is the point. All that is changed is the House.....the planet
generally remains the same except taxes are paid to different people,
battles don't affect you anymore and the Clans geenrally don't come
recruiting.
Yes, there will be some new laws, and so on but for most life will go on
as before......
Why then would there be a rebellion, especially if that will only serve to
antagonise the Clans? At most, you'll prick them and the Clans aren't
known for subtle repsonses......
> The Clans also lack the edge of patriotism if a rebellion
> has any significant popular following. Be loyal to 100 invaders
> or 1 billion of your own kind? Would you be more proud of a
> medal the invaders gave you for successfully arresting your
> fellow citizens or would you be more proud of a medal
> awarded by fellow citizens for fighting the invaders?
>
Again...true...but only, I feel to a point. Most people would
probably not care who ruled and would be more loyal to their world.
Yes, there are exceptions....but they are *exceptions*.
>
> Oh, right, of course. I do not mean to give them impression
> that I think the Clans *only* use orbital bombardment and public
> executions to suppress rebels. I'm well aware of how helpful
> playing nice with the locals has gotten the Ghost Bears and
> Wolves.
>
And there are some indications that will cost them int he long term.
Some Spheroids belivee that the methods employed byt he new
Wolves, the Jags and Jade Falcons will lead to better integration
with Clan society, at the expense of some short term pain.
> It's just anything less than brutal tactics can readily
> be matched by "the good guys" without costing them their
> "good guy" status. And if the guerillas are popular, they
> can easily villify anyone who helps the Clans, especially
> if they take Clan rewards.
>
Welll...this is true.
EJL
Mike Miller
>generally remains the same except taxes are paid to different people,
>battles don't affect you anymore and the Clans geenrally don't come
>recruiting.
Gee, I dunno. When someone breaks into my house, puts his
boot on my neck, declares all my income taxes will go to
him rather than the feds, then he swears up and down he'll
be nice and fight the police on the front lawn rather than
in my house...I don't think I'd feel appreciative. I think
I'd feel angry. Never mind he might kick the shit out of me
again.
Why do you think planetary invasions in BT are different?
Because some border worlds are noted for rolling over,
the majority of planets don't mind switching rulers now
and then? I think not.
>Why then would there be a rebellion, especially if that will only serve to
>antagonise the Clans?
Why then would there be any war, especially if that will only
serve to antagonize the enemy?
Because they were INVADED, they rebel to throw off rulers
they did not ask for. It's this thing called loyalty that
many planets away from borders demonstrate in BT, demonstrate
to the point they're willing to fight the family feuds
known as the Succession Wars for *3 centuries.*
>At most, you'll prick them and the Clans aren't
>known for subtle repsonses......
Prick them...yes, a few hundred dead Clanners is a minor thing
for the Clans population of ~1.4 billion, but it's still an
entire garrison. Yes, they'll have an unsubtle response.
What's the unsubtle Clan response to the destruction of an
entire planetary garrison? Annihilate the planetary population?
Or 'just' decimate the population, killing 1 in 10 of it?
Anything less than that is defeatable. A few hundred more
warriors, 'nice guy' Clan policies - these are all things
a well-organized resistance force can deal with.
Can we hope the Clans actually start stomping planetary
populations? I'd LOVE to see the Clans get First Succession
War on some well-populated Inner Sphere planet's ass. Just
one, one planet-wide Turtle Bay (or was it Edo Bay?)
Mike Miller, MatE
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
> Gee, I dunno. When someone breaks into my house, puts his
> boot on my neck, declares all my income taxes will go to
> him rather than the feds, then he swears up and down he'll
> be nice and fight the police on the front lawn rather than
> in my house...I don't think I'd feel appreciative. I think
> I'd feel angry. Never mind he might kick the shit out of me
> again.
Hmm. As a police-man I wouldn´t *dare* to conftont an elemental inside his
suit with a S&W .38 ...
Not to speak of mechs.
> Why do you think planetary invasions in BT are different?
> Because some border worlds are noted for rolling over,
> the majority of planets don't mind switching rulers now
> and then? I think not.
Why are they different? Because FASA didn´t have a clue?
[snip]
> Can we hope the Clans actually start stomping planetary
> populations? I'd LOVE to see the Clans get First Succession
> War on some well-populated Inner Sphere planet's ass. Just
> one, one planet-wide Turtle Bay (or was it Edo Bay?)
Me, too! But on all IS planets sporting advanced tech -crap :)
Regards
Patrick
Mike Miller
>Mike Miller wrote:
>> Gee, I dunno. When someone breaks into my house, puts his
>> boot on my neck, declares all my income taxes will go to
>> him rather than the feds, then he swears up and down he'll
>> be nice and fight the police on the front lawn rather than
>> in my house...I don't think I'd feel appreciative. I think
>> I'd feel angry. Never mind he might kick the shit out of me
>> again.
> Hmm. As a police-man I wouldn4t *dare* to conftont an
> elemental inside his suit with a S&W .38 ...
> Not to speak of mechs.
I wasn't suggesting regular police fight Clan invaders
in their mechs or battle armor.* I was pointing out why
people would fight invaders even if the invaders were "polite"
enough to not fight in the peoples' cities and "only"
replaced the highest levels of government.
*Nor would I ever recommend that. The Clans will win those
battles. On the other hand, I might recommend a police
squad arrest stray Elementals out wandering a "pacified"
town, playing tourist, or buying fresh food. The Clans
don't go everywhere in their mechs and battle armor, do
they?
>> Why do you think planetary invasions in BT are different?
>> Because some border worlds are noted for rolling over,
>> the majority of planets don't mind switching rulers now
>> and then? I think not.
>Why are they different? Because FASA didn4t have a clue?
I suspect FASA does on occasion, but as Jon Ivars pointed
out, it's unlikely ANY BT power could conquer and hold a
planet in the face of 'reasonable' levels of guerilla
resistance. Since the BT storyline would be scuttled if
there were:
a) properly sized armies to take and hold planets
b) effective rebellions every time a normal-sized BT
invasion force "conquered" a planet
I'd suspect FASA just ignored the inconsistencies in
order to maintain the "feel" of BT, where small units
of centuries-old mecha dueled for control of a planet
in the aftermath of the collapse of the great Star
League...hmm...
Mike Miller, MatE
Terry FitzSimons
<cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A STUDY OF CLAN SOCIAL LIFE
>
>[Announcer] “This evening’s Planetary News Network report
>on the social life of the vile Clan invaders is brought to
>you by Bellatrix Plumbing and Gourmet Foods. Bellatrix,
>maker of the popular Bellatrix Air Bidet. The Bellatrix Air
>Bidet: blows the shit right off your ass! No muss, no fuss,
>no clogged plumbing from archaic toilet paper! Contact your
>local plumber to have a Bellatrix Air Bidet installed
>today!”
I wonder just who's going to do a MST2K number on this one?
--
Terry FitzSimons
TJFI...@GEETEL.NET (Small Letters Only)
CO 1-33rd Lyran Fusiliers
Combat Service Support
President of Vaporware Software
"The best software never published"
Join the local PETA group and celebrate being a member of
People for Eating Tasty Animals
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:21:42 -0500, paul_...@my-deja.com wrote:
"Hanse Davion is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. He makes
me shoot down CCAF troops in green pastures, he recons the enemy beside
quiet waters, he restores the Federated Commonwealth. He guides us with
pathfinders for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley
of the shadow of death, I will fear no Capellan, for the AFFC and his
mercenaries are with me; your AC and your Hatchet, they comfort me. You
prepare a secure LZ before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint
my head with oil; my ammo bin overflows. Surely victory and
pacification will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in
the house of the Fox forever. Amen."
Now man your DropShips. Next stop: Sian.
Terry FitzSimons
<eternal...@vorlonempire.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 04:32:52 -0500, Michael Miller
><cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>From Warriors of Kerensky, the total Clan warrior
>>population is 110,500 from across all the Clans. I'd
>>be dubious if you told me 110,500 warriors was enough
>>to garrison and control a unwilling population of over
>>1 billion.
<< Snip >>
>
>OK, where did you get those numbers? If those are the numbers you're
>going by, I can definitely see your point. I never read that
>sourcebook, "Warriors of Kerensky". Are you sure you might not be
>reading it out of context, as in 110,500 per Clan? Or maybe just
>MechWarriors?
>I mean...if those number are right, the logistics are indeed horrible.
>I mean, I don't even see the Inner Sphere's worry then. Because they
>so overwhelm them with numbers the Clans were no serious threat, ever.
From WoK, pg 34, Population Estimates by Caste table:
Warrior .01% 110,500
Scientist 6.41% 73,820,500
Merchant 18.58% 213,976,500
Technician 7.87% 90,635,000
Laborer 67.12% 772,979,000
Dark (Bandit) Unknown Unknown
Total 99.99% 1,151,521,500
Based on a guess admitted by the book on the Clans as a whole. But it
accounts for all but .01% of the Clans, and since the Bandit Caste is
not known the numbers are suspect, by the tune of 110,500+ people.
Terry FitzSimons
wrote:
>In article <F57hx27kBnccY...@hotmail.com>, Michael Miller
><cra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>Which station of all the hundreds of local affiliates,
>>and where is it? Again, you run into manpower issues.
>>For every station you "shut down" (did you kill all
>>the workers, or let them run home to put out internet
>>posts with all the juicey details intended for the
>>TV "broadcast"?), there are another dozen affiliates.
>>
>A planet with hundreds of affiliates. And where do all these affiliates get
>their newsfeed from. ONE PLACE. You cut the feed off at the source. No
>problem. How long do you think NBC would be on the air if you took out the
>main studios/HQ in NYC? Take out the HQ, no news feed.
Just how long do you think that it would take to realign the network
to replace the defective center with a new center. If NBC-HQ-Main
Studio known that it was liable to be taken down, they may very well
have had plans to switch to another affiliate that had backup tapes
ready to run. Perhaps the ones out in the west coast are too obvious,
so maybe its the little affiliate here in Indiana instead that becomes
the center for broadcasting, and it receives its feeds from the
various ad sundry affiliates. Ya know I think I have seen NBC
broadcasting affiliated stations local news on the national news
segments before.
Come to think of it, isn't NYC one of the atomic target assumptions on
the Russian's list?
>>An entirely different sort of internet where censorship
>>is a given and the military has the final say. Monitoring
>>programs? Sure. Could they keep the programs on the
>>servers before native techs purge that server or unhook
>>the Clan hardware Clan techs bolted on? Again, you're
>>hitting a manpower limitation.
>>
>All they need is one server (they would probably install their own and keep
>it running) As for the programs they can be installed and the freebirths
>would not even know they are there.
That's the fear that a lot of people have currently. Big Daddy has a
monitor on the backbone and is reading everyone's email. Personally I
think its many monitors on different parts of the backbone and the
crosscut channels to monitor as much traffic as possible.
Sooner or later someone is going to think of encryption of the
traffic. Got news for you, mil-grade (128 key system) are either good
for 4+ years of solid decoding by one supercomputer, or less depending
on just how many you assign to the job. Maybe the clans don't have
the extra computers to break the common encryption, I would not care
to bet on it. So who wants to write the viral worm programs that
added "Death to the Clans" to everyone's mail?
Russell
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Miller <mmi...@ddlomni.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.mecha
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [BT][long] Questions on Clan Reactions
If you want real dirt on the clans
page 52 WOK column1 paragraph 1
"coupling with friends usually members of the same sibko"
now consider the genetic and emotional[2] relationship they
have with said individual [1]
and how that can be put to use
[1] sibkin is effectively sibling[2]
[2] individuals raised as part of such normally groups do
not engage in such relationships with other members of the
group as it is part of a virtual genetic programming to
avoid inbreeding. Good examples of this are adopted
children [3] and Kibbutzes (jewish farming communities in
Israel) where the children a kept together in such creches
(generally by age), they almost always look outside the
group they were raised in as the sibling connection within
the group is to strong.
[3] although genetically disinct and immune from the
problems of inbreeding they don't engage in sexual
relationships with their siblings even though they are not
genetically so.
The above can be used to build on more bizarre/extreme
allegations of sexual behaviour even false the mud will
built upon such a strong foundation of behaviour. Leading
all the way to sheep jokes and beyond.
Russell
Scooter
wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mike Miller <mmi...@ddlomni.com>
>Newsgroups: rec.games.mecha
>Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 8:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [BT][long] Questions on Clan Reactions
>
>
>If you want real dirt on the clans
>
>page 52 WOK column1 paragraph 1
>
>"coupling with friends usually members of the same sibko"
>
>now consider the genetic and emotional[2] relationship they
>have with said individual [1]
>and how that can be put to use
>
>[1] sibkin is effectively sibling[2]
>
well sibkin is short for sibling company, however I think most of the
children are closer to cousins since the genetic stock for each child
may have a similar parent line, but added with little diversity along
the way.
>[2] individuals raised as part of such normally groups do
>not engage in such relationships with other members of the
>group as it is part of a virtual genetic programming to
>avoid inbreeding.
The novels have given me the distinct impression that trueborns are
given drugs or in the genetic structure that makes them
semi-infertile. See Jade Phoniex Saga, book 1 where Aidan's old Sibkin
friend injects him with something so she can get pregnant.
The Clan way of live is not incestious as you seem to believe. To
compare them to old earth incestious relations seems wrong.
Stad/ aka Scooter
Terry FitzSimons
<spampr...@fhotmail.comspamprotect> wrote:
>Which is the point. All that is changed is the House.....the planet
>generally remains the same except taxes are paid to different people,
>battles don't affect you anymore and the Clans geenrally don't come
>recruiting.
>
>Yes, there will be some new laws, and so on but for most life will go on
>as before......
Are you sure? I thought that one of the things that the Clans were
originally doing was classifying which Caste their new civilian's fell
into by testing them?
Terry FitzSimons
Walz-Damidaux <walz...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote:
>Hmm. As a police-man I wouldn´t *dare* to conftont an elemental inside his
>suit with a S&W .38 ...
>Not to speak of mechs.
Want to borrow my .50 cal rifle, bolt action, 20 power scope, five
round clip. Think I can get my hands an some Anti-Armor rounds for
it, but that may take some time. Ya might have to get a mite close,
like across the street, to have enough punch to go through the vision
slit on the suit.
Tenaka Furey
> >
> >Yes, there will be some new laws, and so on but for most life will go on
> >as before......
>
> Are you sure? I thought that one of the things that the Clans were
> originally doing was classifying which Caste their new civilian's fell
> into by testing them?
>
Yes - but to hurry things up, a persons jpob defined their caste. So a
doctor rermained a member of the scientist caste, a miner became a
labourer,and so on.
Testing would have had to wiat till the proper infrastructure was set
up, but would then be most likely restricted to those at or below a
certain age. I don't think FASA have said anything about this...except
for hints that CGB isn't doing this but the other Clans are.
In most respects, life would be likely to go on as before, which is
the standard Clan practise. Resistance would only stir the Clans to
crush it. Apart from some changes in the law (murder remaisn murder
and a freebirth policeman who dares arrest a treuborn warrior better
have a good reason), most Clans tended to leave the governmet
structures intact, with merchant caste administartors and perhaps a
military governor.
EJL
EJL
Mike Miller
news:<9387651a.0105...@posting.google.com>...
> Hi!
>
>
> > >
> > >Yes, there will be some new laws, and so on but for most life will go on
> > >as before......
> >
> > Are you sure? I thought that one of the things that the Clans were
> > originally doing was classifying which Caste their new civilian's fell
> > into by testing them?
> >
>
> Yes - but to hurry things up, a persons jpob defined their caste. So a
> doctor rermained a member of the scientist caste, a miner became a
> labourer,and so on.
>
> Testing would have had to wiat till the proper infrastructure was set
> up, but would then be most likely restricted to those at or below a
> certain age. I don't think FASA have said anything about this...except
> for hints that CGB isn't doing this but the other Clans are.
>
> In most respects, life would be likely to go on as before, which is
> the standard Clan practise. Resistance would only stir the Clans to
> crush it.
Crush how? A clan has 6500 warriors total to handle the planet
under discussion (1+ billion people).
> Apart from some changes in the law (murder remaisn murder
> and a freebirth policeman who dares arrest a treuborn warrior better
> have a good reason)
"He stole an apple from that vendor, babbled something about
how being a warrior and need-based economics meant he didn't
need to cough up useless paper and metal trinkets to a laborer.
A thief, and delusional on top of that."
> most Clans tended to leave the governmet
> structures intact, with merchant caste administartors and perhaps a
> military governor.
That's my point: they'd be SO easy to overthrow. They don't
watch anything, don't have the manpower to watch properly,
don't have the manpower to crush a rebellion (short of orbital
bombardment), and they intentionally turn their backs on just
the people they need to watch.
With the Clans' hands-off method of governing, an "occupied"
government could set up whole training camps to churn out
regiments of infantry and the Clans would never notice. Stick
the training camps in a warehouse to hide from satellites, use
the same accounting systems the government uses to hide "black"
intelligence operations and congressional "fact finding tours"
of red light districts, and the planet'll have a dozen infantry
regiments to play guerilla before the first Clan merchant
administrators even show up.
The only issue is one of motivation. FASA's Inner Sphere
inhabitants don't seem to have any on most planets. Only
places like Kittery and Kessel seem to be exceptions.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"There comes a point when one realizes that beating is no less effective
than any other pedagogical method if one is dealing with a sufficiently
stupid audience." --Bryan Maloney, 20 May 2001, rec.games.frp.gurps
>
> EJL
>
>
>
> EJL
Tenaka Furey
>
> Crush how? A clan has 6500 warriors total to handle the planet
> under discussion (1+ billion people).
>
I would disccountt he 1 billion plus figure for *most* worlds. Still,
for those
other worlds then, yes, you have a point.
>
> "He stole an apple from that vendor, babbled something about
> how being a warrior and need-based economics meant he didn't
> need to cough up useless paper and metal trinkets to a laborer.
> A thief, and delusional on top of that."
>
> > most Clans tended to leave the governmet
> > structures intact, with merchant caste administartors and perhaps a
> > military governor.
>
> That's my point: they'd be SO easy to overthrow. They don't
> watch anything, don't have the manpower to watch properly,
> don't have the manpower to crush a rebellion (short of orbital
> bombardment), and they intentionally turn their backs on just
> the people they need to watch.
>
Unfortuantely, that is true of all the powers. Inner Sphere and Clan
alike.
You may as well ask why the citizens of Kentares didn't throw Kurita
off world
when they started massacring the populace.
> With the Clans' hands-off method of governing, an "occupied"
> government could set up whole training camps to churn out
> regiments of infantry and the Clans would never notice. Stick
> the training camps in a warehouse to hide from satellites, use
> the same accounting systems the government uses to hide "black"
> intelligence operations and congressional "fact finding tours"
> of red light districts, and the planet'll have a dozen infantry
> regiments to play guerilla before the first Clan merchant
> administrators even show up.
>
Yes....but this holds true for everyone. Even assuming the Clan
numbers
are correct (I don't believe they are, and think its more likely FASA
erred...think fo the number of Elementals and Aerospace pilots alone,
never
mind those who would die in the various Trials....the Clans almost
*have* to
be larger) the same factors hold true for everyone.
Something must retard a successful rebellion......the most obvious are
equipment, expertise and desire.
Is it a coincidence, perhaps, that the most successful guerilla
movements are
on worlds where the garison force remains?
This doesn't explain the lack of poisoning attempts, snipers and so on
but it may be a start.
> The only issue is one of motivation. FASA's Inner Sphere
> inhabitants don't seem to have any on most planets. Only
> places like Kittery and Kessel seem to be exceptions.
>
True. The thing is, witht he Inenr Sphere its OK....they have dozens
of back up
regiments that aren't mentioen dor listed. We just know they are
there. With the
Clans, they apparently have nothing, yet they were prpearing fpor
centuries for an invasion,
and one of the prime reasons for the iron wombs was to rapidly
incraese thge warrior caste
numbers so that this could happen.....
Guess my sympathies are showing here though. Of course, we don't know
much about the Clan militia forces.
Excpet that they are also counted as memeber of the warrior caste and
therefore should be in the low numbers
Of course, altogether (with conventional infantry, vehicle crews and
elementals), this makes the front line
units very small indeed - a paradox we probably won't be able to
answer to everyones satisfaction.
EJL