Historical Questions on Ma Diao
al
appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
My questions are inserted inside the paragraph in square brackets. Any
readers with in-depth knowledge of the Ma Diao game or Chinese
political and cultural history of the Ching and Ming dynasties are
invited to write their answers here.
"The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
game [Ma Diao].
"Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
[Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
"with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
contributing to play."
[What combinations? And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?]
"Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
[Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
hundred rules?]
"This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
around the mid nineteenth century."
[What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
frame?]
I find it hard to believe a game with a hundred more rules and
complicated as Ma Diao, could be a craze amongst a range of
population as described. What do you think?
++++++++++++++
Cheers.....al
al
> The following is a quote from the "The Late Ming Game of Ma Diao". It
> appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
> Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
>
> My questions are inserted inside the paragraph in square brackets. Any
> readers with in-depth knowledge of the Ma Diao game or Chinese
> political and cultural history of the Ching and Ming dynasties are
> invited to write their answers here.
>
history' in my other post.
> "The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
> game [Ma Diao].
>
There was law against playing Ma Diao. It didn't work.
> "Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
> Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
>
Ma Diao had 40 cards. How was it developed further?
Change number? change names? Change to "combinations" ?
> [Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
> citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
>
I remember reading a newspaper story about 2 guys caught and punished
for gambling in the Ming period hundreds years earlier. Yet no similar
incidents in the Ching dynasty recorded in history.
> "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> contributing to play."
>
Ma Diao was supposed to be a trick-taking game. What "combination" is
referred to a trick-taking game? I can see combinations in a pattern
forming game.
> [What combinations? And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?]
>
This is puzzling. Which are the remaining 8 cards in the deck and what
are their names?
Could E-S-W-N directions be 4 of the 8?
> "Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
> rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
>
Amazing...rules could become more complicated than Ma Diao rules.
"Some manuals' with hundred rules of play. Where have these manuals
gone?
> [Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
> hundred rules?]
>
> "This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
> scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
> centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
> around the mid nineteenth century."
>
What was that game? It developed from Ma Diao. It became a craze until
the mid-19th century, through gaming ban and all.
It was not mahjong, because mahjong is dated by the earliest set at
the time it was discovered (by Westerners) only during the mid-19th
century.
There is a game missing.
> [What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
> seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
> scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
> since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
> frame?]
>
Is it possible that mahjong was the game described above?
If so, is it possible that mahjong is an older game.
This is why I said in the beginning of this post that it could belong
with the question, 'how inaccurate is mahjong history'.
> [..]
+++++++++++++++++
Cheers....al
al
> On Jun 20, 11:11 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:> The following is a quote from the "The Late Ming Game of Ma Diao". It
> > appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
> > Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
>
> > My questions are inserted inside the paragraph in square brackets. Any
> > readers with in-depth knowledge of the Ma Diao game or Chinese
> > political and cultural history of the Ching and Ming dynasties are
> > invited to write their answers here.
>
> I could have included this with my question 'How inaccurate is mahjong
> history' in my other post.
>
There was a game after Ma Daio was banned.
> > "The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
> > game [Ma Diao].
> [..]
> > "Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
> > Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
>
That was the game, further developed from Ma Daio.
> Ma Diao had 40 cards. How was it developed further?
> Change number? change names? Change to "combinations" ?
>
Possibly all of the above!
> > [Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
> > citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
>
I don't know of any. It would have been known by now if there was.
> I remember reading a newspaper story about 2 guys caught and punished
> for gambling in the Ming period hundreds years earlier. Yet no similar
> incidents in the Ching dynasty recorded in history.
>
One reason perhaps, the new game was not illegal. And why? Again,
perhaps the suits of cards had no money symbols; the game might have
had a sophisticated and scholarly theme to qualify it as an
intellectual pursuit that lasts hours instead of minutes. Possible!
The exact maneuver took place in China in recent history. Mahjong was
banned as a gambling instrument, but is a mental exercise game for
competitions now.
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
>
Combination of 3 cards? That sounds familiar!
> Ma Diao was supposed to be a trick-taking game. What "combination" is
> referred to a trick-taking game? I can see combinations in a pattern
> forming game.
>
Pattern forming is what was meant. I think.
> >[..]
> > "Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
> > rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
>
Nothing new about that.
> Amazing...rules could become more complicated than Ma Diao rules.
> "Some manuals' with hundred rules of play. Where have these manuals
> gone?
>
Exaggeration is what that sounds like.
Pengs added and Kong perhaps...
> > [Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
> > hundred rules?]
>
That is what we need, a manual (where is that article, Cofa?)
> > "This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
> > scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
> > centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
> > around the mid nineteenth century."
>
> What was that game? It developed from Ma Diao. It became a craze until
> the mid-19th century, through gaming ban and all.
> It was not mahjong, because mahjong is dated by the earliest set at
> the time it was discovered (by Westerners) only during the mid-19th
> century.
> There is a game missing.
>
May be not...could it be Mo He and then Peng He?
They might fit roughly the description and time frame. Check them out.
> > [What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
> > seventeenth and mid nineteenth century.[..] [..]
>
> Is it possible that mahjong was the game described above?
No. It sounds like a game before Mahjong, unless mahjong arrived
separately via a different route.
+++++++++++
Cheers....al
al
> > appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
> > Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
>
> > My questions are inserted inside the paragraph in square brackets. Any
> > readers with in-depth knowledge of the Ma Diao game or Chinese
> > political and cultural history of the Ching and Ming dynasties are
> > invited to write their answers here.
>
> I could have included this with my question 'How inaccurate is mahjong
> history' in my other post.
It was a good thing I did not.
>
> > "The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
> > game [Ma Diao].
That could have forced Ma Daio to CHANGE!
>
> There was law against playing Ma Diao. It didn't work.
Not 100%, but that is par for the course.
>
> > "Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
> > Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
Developed further into what? Mo He Pai?
>
> Ma Diao had 40 cards. How was it developed further?
> Change number? change names? Change to "combinations" ?
Perhaps all of the above!
>
> > [Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
> > citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
>
> I remember reading a newspaper story about 2 guys caught and punished
> for gambling in the Ming period hundreds years earlier. Yet no similar
> incidents in the Ching dynasty recorded in history.
>
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
>
> Ma Diao was supposed to be a trick-taking game. What "combination" is
> referred to a trick-taking game? I can see combinations in a pattern
> forming game.
The game might have changed to become legal.
>
> > [What combinations? And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?]
>
> This is puzzling. Which are the remaining 8 cards in the deck and what
> are their names?
> Could E-S-W-N directions be 4 of the 8?
How about combination of 3's in sequences and then melds?
>
> > "Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
> > rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
No manuals that I know of. There was mention of an article. (Where is
it now, Cofa?)
>
> [..]
> > "This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
> > scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
> > centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
> > around the mid nineteenth century."
The description sounds exaggerated.
>
> What was that game? It developed from Ma Diao. It became a craze until
> the mid-19th century, through gaming ban and all.
> It was not mahjong, because mahjong is dated by the earliest set at
> the time it was discovered (by Westerners) only during the mid-19th
> century.
> There is a game missing.
>
> > [What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
> > seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
> > scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
> > since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
> > frame?]
>
> Is it possible that mahjong was the game described above?
> If so, is it possible that mahjong is an older game.
> This is why I said in the beginning of this post that it could belong
> with the question, 'how inaccurate is mahjong history'.
No. No. No. It was not mahjong. It was Mo He Pai and then Peng He Pai.
Ma Daio had to be transformed from gambling card game to an
intellectual pastime, through a legal loophole like mahjong did in
China in recent years. Mahjong now is a mental exercise game for
competitions. For Ma Daio to be reclassified, it had to change in
basic character. To do that it needed new symbols and a good story.
Mo He Pai and Peng He Pai were not or could no longer be "money based"
if they were. That put Mo He Pai in the time of mid-18th century.
Mahjong comes after Mo He and Peng He, somehow? It is possible.
> > [..]
>
> +++++++++++++++++
Cheers....al
al
> > appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
> > Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
>
>
> > "The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
> > game [Ma Diao].
1740 COULC BE AN IMPORTANT FOR MAHJONG HISTORY.
>
> There was law against playing Ma Diao [AND GAMBLING]. It didn't work [UNTIL 1740].
>
> > "Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
> > Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
THE KEY WORD IS 'DEVELOPED'. WE CAN ONLY SPECULATE HOW MUCH 'FURTHER'.
>
> Ma Diao had 40 cards. How was it developed further?
> Change number? change names? Change to "combinations" ?
MIGHT HAVE BEEN ALL OF THE ABOVE, INCLUDING SIMPLIFIED SYMBOLS AND
ADDED PIECES PERHAPS.
>
> > [Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
> > citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
NO MENTION OF INCIDENCE RECORDED OR KNOWN IN MAHJONG HISTORY YET.
>
> I remember reading a newspaper story about 2 guys caught and punished
> for gambling in the Ming period hundreds years earlier. Yet no similar
> incidents in the Ching dynasty recorded in history.
>
NO ONE GOT CAUGHT FOR GAMBLING PLAYING THE 'FURTHER DEVELOPED' GAME.
THAT MEANS THE NEW GAME WAS LEGAL RECREATION AND NOT ILLEGAL GAMBLING,
AS THE LAW WAS THEN IN EFFECT. HOW SO? There is a way.
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
THE KEY WORD IS 'COMBINATIONS'. THAT IS NOT PART OF THE OLD MA DAIO
GAME. 'THE REMAINING DECK OF CARDS CONTRIBUTE TO PLAY' SOUNDS LIKE
'DRAW AND DISCARD' MIGHT HAVE BEEN PART OF THE PLAY IN THIS FURTHER
DEVELOPED GAME.
>
> Ma Diao was supposed to be a trick-taking game. What "combination" is
> referred to a trick-taking game? I can see combinations in a pattern
> forming game.
>
HERE IS A PICTURE OF A SIGNIFICANT DEPARTURE FROM THE OLD GAME. A RUN
OR SEQUENCE IS A 'COMBINATION'.
> > [..]
>
> > "Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
> > rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
>
> Amazing...rules could become more complicated than Ma Diao rules.
> "Some manuals' with hundred rules of play. Where have these manuals
> gone?
>
> > [Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
> > hundred rules?]
>
HERE IS A PROBLEM. NO SUCH MANUALS CAN BE FOUND. THERE WAS AN ARTICLE
CITED BY A MEMBER OF THIS GROUP IN AN EARLIER POST ONLY.
> > "This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
> > scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
> > centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
> > around the mid nineteenth century."
>
> What was that game? It developed from Ma Diao. It became a craze until
> the mid-19th century, through gaming ban and all.
> It was not mahjong, because mahjong is dated by the earliest set at
> the time it was discovered (by Westerners) only during the mid-19th
> century.
> There is a game missing.
>
THAT GAME COULD BE AND MOST LIKELY WAS MO HE PAI WHICH LATER DEVELOPED
INTO PENG HE PAI AND SPARROW.
THE LAW CAME DOWN ON MA DAIO. THE GAME HAD TO UNDERGO CHANGE TO
RECLASSIFY AS AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT. NEW SYMBOLS AND NEW RULES WERE
INTRODUCED, SUCH AS FORMING 'COMBINATIONS' THAT REQUIRES MENTAL
EXERCISE IN MEMORY AND THINKING, similar TO THE WAY MAHJONG GOT FREE
FROM A BAN IN MAINLAND CHINA.
> > [What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
> > seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
> > scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
> > since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
> > frame?]
MO HE PAI AND PENG HE PAI FIT IN THERE SOMEHOW. I BELIEVE.
>
> Is it possible that mahjong was the game described above?
NO. SOMETHING BEFORE MAHJONG, UNLESS THE SPARROW ARRIVED FROM A
SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT ROUTE ALTOGETHER.
> [..]
> +++++++++++++++++
Cheers...al
al
> > appeared at the very end of the article by Andrew Lo in The Playing-
> > Card Volume xxix, Number 3.
>
>
> > "The Qing [Ching] law code finally caught up in 1740 and banned the
> > game [Ma Diao].
>
>
> > "Players however, ignored the officials and the law code. In the Qing
> > Dynasty, the game of Ma Diao developed further,"
>
HOW MUCH FURTHER WAS UNDEFINED.
> Ma Diao had 40 cards. How was it developed further?
> Change number? change names? Change to "combinations" ?
>
> > [Ching Dynasty is from 1636-1911. Any evidence in newspapers of
> > citizens disobeying the law? What were the consequences?]
>
> I remember reading a newspaper story about 2 guys caught and punished
> for gambling in the Ming period hundreds years earlier. Yet no similar
> incidents in the Ching dynasty recorded in history.
>
TRANSFORMATION INTO AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT. MAHJONG HAD TO BE RE-
CLASSIFIED IN MAINLAND CHINA.
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
SIMILAR TO 'DRAW AND DISCARD'?
>
> Ma Diao was supposed to be a trick-taking game. What "combination" is
> referred to a trick-taking game? I can see combinations in a pattern
> forming game.
>
> > [What combinations? And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?]
>
> [..] A RUN OR SEQUENCE IS A COMBINATION.
>
> > "Rules became more complicated, with some manuals listing hundred
> > rules of play, and rules differing slightly in different areas."
NOTHING NEW ABOUT THAT. MAHJONG PLAYERS KNOW.
>
> Amazing...rules could become more complicated than Ma Diao rules.
> "Some manuals' with hundred rules of play. Where have these manuals
> gone?
>
> > [Any known published manuals referred to and what are some of the
> > hundred rules?]
THAT IS THE PROBLEM. NO MANUALS FOUND. SOME ONE MENTIONED ABOUT AN
ARTICLE IN MO HE PAI DISCUSSION.
>
> > "This game became a craze amongst all walks of life, from nobles,
> > scholar-officials and courtesans to sedan-chair carriers for over two
> > centuries, before giving way to the popularity of other card games
> > around the mid nineteenth century."
>
> What was that game? It developed from Ma Diao. It became a craze until
> the mid-19th century, through gaming ban and all.
> It was not mahjong, because mahjong is dated by the earliest set at
> the time it was discovered (by Westerners) only during the mid-19th
> century.
> There is a game missing.
>
MO HE AND THEN PENG HE.
> > [What game is this? It was popular for two centuries between mid
> > seventeenth and mid nineteenth century. Mahjong historians and
> > scholars, what was this game? And what other games more popular in or
> > since the mid nineteenth century? Where does mahjong fit in the time
> > frame?]
AFTER MO HE AND PENG HE.
>
> Is it possible that mahjong was the game described above?
> If so, is it possible that mahjong is an older game.
NO. UNLESS MJ OR THE SPARROW ARRIVED VIA A DIFFERENT SEPARATE ROUTE.
+++++++++++
Cheers...al
ithinc
> "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> contributing to play."
> What combinations?
Do you know what's "六红“/”七同”/“八大”/“八么”/“百肩四极”/etc.?
> And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?
You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.
ithinc
al
> Andrew Lo wrote:
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
> al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > What combinations?
>
> Do you know what's "六红"/"七同"/"八大"/"八么"/"百肩四极"/etc.?
>
> > And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?
>
> You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++++++
I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
questions.
I remember the story of what an aviation expert told the inventor of
helicopter that the idea will never work and even if it does, it would
be "useless". You remind me of such characters.
Since you and your great depth of knowledge have not come up with any
credible hypothesis on mahjong origin, how much value can you
attribute to all your answers? In simple terms, what is your wealth of
knowledge worth anyway?
+++++++++++++++++
Cheers....al
ithinc
> No. I do not know. That was why I asked.
When you're a student, you should have been more respectful.
> I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
> knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
> questions.
A teacher could easily judge the value of the questions from a primary
school student.
ithinc
al
> On Oct 13, 2:20 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > No. I do not know. That was why I asked.
>
> When you're a student, you should have been more respectful.
>
more humble.
> > I know a little about ma diao; not as much as you do, perhaps. Your
> > knowledge of ma daio does not qualify you to judge the value of my
> > questions.
>
> A teacher could easily judge the value of the questions from a primary
> school student.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++
Such claim is ridiculous. You missed the target. The primary students
of Chinese history and literature wrote the story of mahjong for the
Western world a while back. Where have you been?
++++++++
You are wrong again. When you can not tell the difference between a
primary school student from some one with a higher education, it's
just your own lack of experience. I was tempted to say it's your own
stupidity, but I reserve judgment for now.
al
> Andrew Lo wrote:
> > "with more combinations and the remaining deck of eight cards all
> > contributing to play."
> al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > What combinations?
>
> Do you know what's "六红"/"七同"/"八大"/"八么"/"百肩四极"/etc.?
>
> > And which 8 cards remaining in the deck?
That was the question. What is the answer?
>
> You know nothing about Madiao. Your questions are valueless.
>
> ithinc
+++++++++++
I do know something about Madiao, and probably more than you think.
But I want to know more, so here are some questions for scholars and
historians who might have in-depth knowledge for the game.
++++++++++
Questions on Ma Diao:
(1) Is the name Ma Tiao or Ma Diao?
(2) What does it really mean, one of the following?
Ma Diao = Horse Hang =马吊
Ma Diao = Horse Drop =马 掉.
Ma Tiao = Twin Lines = 孖条
(3) What is this about? "Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is
ideal for storage and saving."
(4) How about this? " do not forget the empty. Emptiness forms the
base...This is why the forty cards were invented."
(5) Why is this "Void" in the following description? "The supreme,
Zero Cash...with a heading 'Void of one cash'."
(6) The "1-Cash" was said to be "like the diagram of the taiji (grand
ultimate)". Was it the taiji yin-yang diagram or just "like" it and
why?
All these 6 questions refer to material written by Pan Zhiheng
(1556-1622) on pages 88 and 89 in English translation of The Playing-
Card Volume 31 Number 2.
(7) Where else do terms such as "supreme, emptiness, void, taiji
diagram, grand ultimate" etc. appear and what do they associate with,
infer or imply?
(8) Final question: if Ma Diao is related to Mahjong even remotely,
would they share something common in concept (like Void, Taiji
diagram, Ultimate, Emptiness, etc.) other than so-called "Cash-suited"
idea?
++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 8, 2008