What is "Ti" in Shui Huo Ti Pai?
al
Shui Huo Ti Pai is the name of a card deck on page 36 shown in photo
39 in Illustrated Book of Mahjong Museum (Japan 1999).
My question is “what does Shui Huo Ti Pai” mean?
Pai is known as cards. Shui Huo in the book is given as 水 滸
(riverbank).There are about 150 Chinese characters have roughly the
same pronunciation for “Ti” in the Kangxi dictionary. One of them
should fit with Shi Huo Pai. Is there a recognized or documented
meaning for "Ti" ? What is its significance ?
++++++++++++++++++++
Julian Bradfield
My guess would be 水滸題牌 = "Water Margin" themed cards.
(I don't know why 滸 is given as "huo" - the online dictionaries give
hu3.)
al
First, I agree with your "guess". 題 is the only word that makes sense
in context and 題 has similar pronunciation in Cantonese dialect that I
know. "Theme" is essential to a game-design, IMO.
Also, why 滸 is given as "huo" puzzles me as well. I looked into the
question. My understanding is this.
Huo is not 滸 in Kangxi dictionary either.
These 7 words pronounced huo:
None of the seven words fits the theme in “Shui Hu Zhuan”.
“Huo” is not “Hu”. Water Margin seems to be a mistaken translation.
• 沎 • 活 • 湱 • 漷 • 濊 • 濩 • 瀖 • [huo]
水滸傳 correct Title should be 'Shui Hu Zhuan' perhaps? Hu and not Huo?
+++++++++++++++++++
"Water Margin" is not quite "水滸". Although Water is "水", "滸" is not
quite a long margin.
Margin means edge; 邊 (边, biān): side; border line; boundary etc.
'Water Margin Chuan' is more like Water Border Stories. But the
stories did not take place by water's edge. The translation is
somewhat inaccurate, in my view. Who first place images of the bandits
on cards and why that was done are mysteries to me.
+++++++++++++++++
滸 seems to have a special meaning. According to the Kangxi dictionary,
it is defined as flat ground for scattering water. That sounds like
something built for flood control in ancient China.
水滸題牌, Shui Hu Ti Pai, as I see it now, is a totally different thing.
It means a deck of cards that has a theme which relates to some
incidence taken place on shore by the water.
I can think of two mythical instances by the water of Yellow River and
the Lo. They could be basis for a theme. Shui Hu Ti Pai could relate
to either one or both. I shall study further.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cheers.....
Julian Bradfield
> On Jun 1, 4:54 am, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> 'Water Margin Chuan' is more like Water Border Stories. But the
> stories did not take place by water's edge. The translation is
> somewhat inaccurate, in my view. Who first place images of the bandits
> on cards and why that was done are mysteries to me.
"Water Margin" is a very literal translation. We also call it in
English "The Outlaws of the Marsh" - "marsh" is a not unreasonably
translation for 滸, is it?
> 水滸題牌, Shui Hu Ti Pai, as I see it now, is a totally different thing.
> It means a deck of cards that has a theme which relates to some
> incidence taken place on shore by the water.
> I can think of two mythical instances by the water of Yellow River and
> the Lo. They could be basis for a theme. Shui Hu Ti Pai could relate
> to either one or both. I shall study further.
Why on earth do you need to think this? Cards illustrated with the
Water Margin "heroes" have been around for a very long time, and still
are. Can you find any instance of the phrase "水滸" that doesn't refer to
the story?
al
> On 2009-06-02, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 1, 4:54 am, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > 'Water Margin Chuan' is more like Water Border Stories. But the
> > stories did not take place by water's edge. The translation is
> > somewhat inaccurate, in my view. Who first place images of the bandits
> > on cards and why that was done are mysteries to me.
>
> "Water Margin" is a very literal translation. We also call it in
> English "The Outlaws of the Marsh" - "marsh" is a not unreasonably
> translation for 滸, is it?
>
Marsh is wetland. The bandits did not hide in the wetland. They did
not carry on their robbery activities in the wetland. They scattered
themselves in the dry mountain side for cover and rapid escape. Marsh
was not in their card. Outlaws of the Marsh? Not only unreasonable,
but it's unimaginable.
Has there been any mention of a theme based on the "outlaws"?
++++++++++++++++
> > 水滸題牌, Shui Hu Ti Pai, as I see it now, is a totally different thing.
> > It means a deck of cards that has a theme which relates to some
> > incidence taken place on shore by the water.
> > I can think of two mythical instances by the water of Yellow River and
> > the Lo. They could be basis for a theme. Shui Hu Ti Pai could relate
> > to either one or both. I shall study further.
>
> Why on earth do you need to think this? Cards illustrated with the
> Water Margin "heroes" have been around for a very long time, and still
> are. Can you find any instance of the phrase "水滸" that doesn't refer to
> the story?
For one thing Chinese history has been around for a longer time than
those "heroes". But it's for the simple reason that there has not been
a theme derived out of their heroic deeds. For another thing, good
mistakes can last a long time. There have been a few of those in
history.
"Shui Hu Ti Pai" by its name with the word "Ti" meaning "theme" should
have a theme. Yet the Outlaws of the Marsh, although appeared on
printed cards for however long time, offer no theme discernible in all
the years. (I would like to know if anybody have, heard or read of,
one.)
++++++++++++++++++
More to the reasonableness of the name "Outlaws of the Marsh", I have
looked further into the word "Hu" in the Kangxi dictionary. Thanks to
you for the lead that led me there and thanks to d...@..nydj for
teaching me how to use it.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
滸 = 浒 and as a noun,〈名〉, it means:
(1) 本义:水边,指离水稍远的岸上平地)
Translation of (1) reads “basic meaning: riverbank or flat ground
shore line that directs away small amounts of water. “
That sounds like spillway for flood control. Nowhere “marsh” is
related to 滸 in this definition.
(2) 同本义 [waterside]
岸上平地,去水稍远者名浒。——《尔雅•释丘》
On shore flat land spill water small amount away is called ”滸”.
This is nearly word to word translation of (2).
(3)又如:河浒(黄河边)
Also like River Hu (Yellow River’s edge). Here in (3) the meaning
refers to a specific river.
(4) 淮水溢出的小水
Heavy rain overflows in small amounts.
Here (4) seems to refer to the small amount of overflow itself.
++++++++++++++++++
Where is the 'theme' then? What had happened at the riverbank? And
what if something was supposedly to have happened long ago at the
Yellow River embankment? Could an incident there become a theme for a
card deck? I shall investigate.
++++++++++++++++
Cheers.....
Julian Bradfield
> On Jun 2, 2:58 pm, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Where is the "marsh"? That is what I would ask.
The marsh is Liangshan Marsh (earlier called Daye Marsh), surrounding
Liang Mountain. It's mostly dried up now, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Liang
> Marsh is wetland. The bandits did not hide in the wetland. They did
Everybody who's commented on or translated Shui Hu Zhuan thinks they
hid in the marsh. I haven't yet read the book, I have to say, but
given the choice between what the rest of the world thinks and what
you think, I'll take the rest of the world.
> those "heroes". But it's for the simple reason that there has not been
> a theme derived out of their heroic deeds. For another thing, good
> mistakes can last a long time. There have been a few of those in
> history.
>
> "Shui Hu Ti Pai" by its name with the word "Ti" meaning "theme" should
> have a theme. Yet the Outlaws of the Marsh, although appeared on
> printed cards for however long time, offer no theme discernible in all
> the years. (I would like to know if anybody have, heard or read of,
> one.)
The theme IS the story. I can't speak for the use of ti in Chinese,
but if you buy a pack of Star Wars themed playing cards in English,
all that means is that the cards have pictures from Star Wars. There's
no need for some grandiose pseudo-intellectual literary theme of the
kind you're so fond of.
Julian Bradfield
> On Jun 2, 2:58 pm, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.ukwrote:
>
The marsh is Liangshan Marsh (earlier called Daye Marsh), surrounding
Liang Mountain. It's mostly dried up now, according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Liang
> Marsh is wetland. The bandits did not hide in the wetland. They did
Everybody who's commented on or translated Shui Hu Zhuan thinks it's
fair to say they hid "in the marsh". Since the marsh completely
surrounded the mountain, that's quite compatible with living on the
mountain-side, which would indeed be a more obviously sensible thing
to do. (I haven't read the book yet.)
> those "heroes". But it's for the simple reason that there has not been
> a theme derived out of their heroic deeds. For another thing, good
> mistakes can last a long time. There have been a few of those in
> history.
>
> "Shui Hu Ti Pai" by its name with the word "Ti" meaning "theme" should
> have a theme. Yet the Outlaws of the Marsh, although appeared on
> printed cards for however long time, offer no theme discernible in all
> the years. (I would like to know if anybody have, heard or read of,
> one.)
The theme IS the story. I can't speak for the use of ti in Chinese,
al
> On 2009-06-03, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.cawrote:
>
> > On Jun 2, 2:58 pm, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.ukwrote:
>
> > Where is the "marsh"? That is what I would ask.
>
> The marsh is Liangshan Marsh (earlier called Daye Marsh), surrounding
> Liang Mountain. It's mostly dried up now, according tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Liang
>
here.
> > Marsh is wetland. The bandits did not hide in the wetland. [..]
>
> Everybody who's commented on or translated Shui Hu Zhuan thinks it's
> fair to say they hid "in the marsh". Since the marsh completely
> surrounded the mountain, that's quite compatible with living on the
> mountain-side, which would indeed be a more obviously sensible thing
> to do. (I haven't read the book yet.)
>
I have different opinion. And I have good reasons for it.
===== Here is my reason.
Marsh in China is like a myth. Marsh is waste land. People waste no
land in China. They have dry terraces on the hillside for crops that
grow with only rain water, like peanuts; they have crops that grow
submerged in water from planting to harvest, like rice. Any marsh land
would become productive fields, 田, in a short time. Food is always in
short supply.
I wonder if the translation was done by someone who is not Chinese.
Marsh is not Hu, 滸 or Shui Hu, 水 滸. Or was it done by someone who did
not examine the English word carefully in terms of China geography.
The word for marsh is 澤 (beneficence / marsh) from a dictionary. Its
synonyms include / swamp / wetlands / glade . Could it be that we
misunderstood the title? Marsh refers to beneficence perhaps? But then
that is not 滸. 滸 (Hu) is flat land by the water (shore line).
++++++++++++++++++
Another cultural geographic detail is this. If the so-called
“marsh” [wet land] means area covered by water, then “marsh” is
everywhere throughout the country.”Outlaws of the Marsh” is a non-
specific title. It’s like saying “Tragic Lovers” instead of “Romeo and
Juliet” or “Prince” instead of “Hamlet”.
+++++++++++++++++++++
As for the ‘theme’ question, you said the story is the theme. Then why
is the ‘Empty void of Money’ card has a Hero shown with it? What could
that part of the story be? I wonder. Is ‘emptiness’ or ‘void of one’ a
part of the theme? I am referring to page 36 of Illustrated Book of
Mahjong Museum. I am like you. We have not read the full story.
You mentioned Star War, the card game. I am not familiar with it. I
suspect the characters and the rules of the game follow the theme of
the story. I know in old Chinese games, Dou Hu (Fighting Tiger) for
example, that game had more than one theme. [page 223, TPC V31 N5]
++++++++++++++++
> >]..]
>
> > "Shui Hu Ti Pai" by its name with the word "Ti" meaning "theme" should
> > have a theme. Yet the Outlaws of the Marsh, although appeared on
> > printed cards for however long time, offer no theme discernible in all
> > the years. (I would like to know if anybody have, heard or read of,
> > one.)
Outlaws glorified on playing cards in feudal rules? Imagine that.
I suspect there had been a mistake made somehow. No doubt there is a
novel with the title, "水 滸 傳 " but applying story to the playing cards
in my view is incongruous. The only correspondence I can see is the
fact there are 108 bandit heroes and 108 cards when the 3 suits of 9
cards quadrupled.
That raises an interesting question. Did the Water Margin characters
appear on cards when the decks had only 40 or 30 or 38 or 48 cards?
Or did they show up only after the 3 suits of 9 cards expanded to 108?
4 times 27 = 108.
> [..]
Thanks again for the Mount Liang link....
pa...@email.unc.edu
> That raises an interesting question. Did the Water Margin characters
> appear on cards when the decks had only 40 or 30 or 38 or 48 cards?
> Or did they show up only after the 3 suits of 9 cards expanded to 108?
> 4 times 27 = 108.> [..]
This question is in my opinion the only legitimate item in your post.
For those interested in the evolution of cards this point could be a
subject of research. However, I do not see how this line of research
would be relevant to mahjong, so I will not be the one to help you
answer this question. If you think that it is relevant in some way,
then you are, of course, welcome to study it further.
Even with the typically rather abstract renderings of the figures on
the cards, I am able to identify some of the characters depicted (e.g.
by the double axes of Li Kui). I do not know if you are trying to
dispute that the characters depicted on the cards are connected to the
Water Margin novel, but both the visual evidence on the cards and the
historical references (including Chinese sources) that identify the
card images as depicting some of the characters from the novel seem to
me to be clear evidence for that link. You would have a nearly
impossible task to convince me that the figures depicted on the cards
are not characters from the novel!
In terms of possible relevance for mahjong, I have read a translation
of the novel and have searched for possible correlations to the
mahjong tiles. I had thought that if mahjong evolved from the cards,
then the new tiles in mahjong not found in card decks may have been an
elaboration of the connection to the novel. However, my research did
not result in enough to convince me that the novel was relevant to
mahjong. Perhaps someone else would come to a different conclusion,
and others are certainly welcome to research this further.
__________
The remainder of your post seems to further illustrate the weird world
of Al’s preconceived biases. For example:
On Jun 4, 5:26 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Marsh in China is like a myth. Marsh is waste land. People waste no
> land in China...
Really??? In the Song dynasty (when the novel takes place), when the
estimated population of China was 100,000,000 people, you think there
was no unused land and thus no marshes??? China 1000 years ago was not
the same as your modern experience of the country! This is an example
of your apparent inability to conceive of the possibility that
historical conditions in China were different than your modern
experiences of the country. Absurd! If you want me to believe these
statements of yours, then you would need to show references from
historical atlases of China or from writings from Song history that
support your assertions!
On Jun 4, 5:26 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I wonder if the translation was done by someone who is not Chinese.
> Marsh is not Hu, 滸 or Shui Hu, 水 滸. Or was it done by someone who did
> not examine the English word carefully in terms of China geography.
Rather than speculating on translations of the novel, why don’t you
actually read a Chinese version of the novel and see if the title
translated into English fits with the story? From the novel translated
into English that I have read, I think that the title is perfectly
reasonable for the story, but I do not see how the translation of the
title (or story) really has any relevance in terms of mahjong history.
If you do not like the English translation, then your ability to read
Chinese means that you do not need to rely on the translation! Search
out a Chinese version of the novel (i.e. do your research)!
al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Marsh is wetland. The bandits did not hide in the wetland. [..]
So you know this how? Without even reading the novel??? Without
checking the history of the Song dynasty that provided the basis for
some of the characters in the novel???
__________
You seem to have an unstated goal with this thread. Is it an attempt
to discredit the cards to mahjong evolutionary idea? If not that, then
what are you trying to point out by starting this thread? I really do
not understand you! What is your goal for this line of inquiry? What
are you attempting to accomplish, and how does it relate to mahjong?
Dan
al
> On Jun 4, 5:26 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
Thank you, Dan. I looked up “水浒传” in the net. Here is what I found.
I will quote and explain. I use Kangxi and online dictionary for help
in my translation.
“又名《忠义水浒传》，初名《江湖豪客传》”
又名《忠义水浒传》[translation] “Also named << Loyal Comrades of Shui Hu
Stories>>
[Shui Hu means Water Mooring].”
But read what this says [translation].
“初名《江湖豪客传》，First/initially it was named 江湖豪客传.
Broken down, 江 means: 1. (大河) (large river) and 2.(指长江) the Changjiang
[Yangtze] River.
Note that 江 could mean a particular large river (the Yangtze) and not
just any river. That is comparable to Tiger means Woods and not just
any golf champion.
湖 means lake. 豪 means heroic and 客 means strangers / guests. 传 of
course means fiction / story or folklore that pass down the
generations.
Obviously the name of the story was quite different at first.
一般简称《水浒》，作于元末明初。
This says: Generally simplified name is <<Shui Hu>>. It was written in
the period between end of Yuan and beginning of Ming
++++++++++++++++++++
I also read this explanation-note below.
“水浒”字面的意思是水边，指故事发生的地点在山东梁山泊。”
It says “on the surface, Shui Hu means water’s edge, [riverbank or
shoreline], indicating the stories’ place of origin in Shandong
Province at LiangShan Mooring.”
++++++++++++++++++
Again from Wikipedia, I quote.
“Mount Liang [LiangShan] was located at the extreme north of what
became known as the "eight hundred li moorage of Mount Liang".
So LiangShan refers to a long shore line of hundreds of miles (li).
Notice the word ‘moorage’. My doubts are justified. There was
‘moorage’ in the name but no marsh. Im-margin that!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Furthermore, authorship has been always in dispute, according to these
words: “作者历来有争议.”
“一般认为是施耐庵所著” it is generally considered that [施耐庵] was the author.
“而罗贯中則做了一定的整理工作。”And [罗贯中] did certain editing work.
++++++++++++++++++++
The “ti” [题] of Shui-Hu or its theme was to fight against injustice
and corruption. The fictional tales seemed to have served a propaganda
purpose for farmers to rise up,“為农民起义小說”。
Then what the Shui-Hu Ti has to do with playing cards? How do playing-
cards relate with the theme of justice and righteousness for common
folks? Could this be an explanation? I wonder. Since there was
scarcity of books and illiteracy was the norm in ancient China, Shui-
Hu Ti pai could deliver political messages with cards showing
resemblance of outlaws and their heroic stories told and spread by
word-of-mouth.
That is if those were portraits of outlaws and suppose that was the
intent for their display on the cards. In addition somehow the whole
thing remained undetected by the ruling authorities. Further inquiry
is needed.
However, if a simple card-game like Shui Hu Ti Pai has a theme (Ti) to
it, as indicated in its name; a sophisticated game like mahjong
derived without a ‘ti’ seems to me inconceivable. I am searching for a
mahjong theme that could better explain its origin.
++++++++++++++++++++
Allan Lee
June 6, 2009
al
> On 2009-06-03, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.cawrote:
>
> > On Jun 2, 2:58 pm, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.ukwrote:
>
> > Where is the "marsh"? That is what I would ask.
>
> The marsh is Liangshan Marsh (earlier called Daye Marsh), surrounding
> Liang Mountain. It's mostly dried up now, according tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Liang
>
>
> [..]
>
> > [..]
>
> > "Shui Hu Ti Pai" by its name with the word "Ti" meaning "theme" should
> > have a theme. Yet the Outlaws of the Marsh, although appeared on
> > printed cards for however long time, offer no theme discernible in all
> > the years. (I would like to know if anybody have, heard or read of,
> > one.)
>
> The theme IS the story. I can't speak for the use of ti in Chinese,
> but if you buy a pack of Star Wars themed playing cards in English,
> all that means is that the cards have pictures from Star Wars. There's
> no need for some grandiose pseudo-intellectual literary theme of the
> kind you're so fond of.
As you said,
"a pack of Star Wars themed playing cards in English,
> all that means is that the cards have pictures from Star Wars."
So, Star War pictures on cards indicate the game's theme relates to
the story, Star War.
I wonder what is the theme of mahjong and how it relates to the
symbolic drawings (Tong, Suo, Wan) and Chinese words (ESWN and Zhong
Fa Ba). Any fictional story other than "Why A Sparrow" ? Or could it
be "Money, Money, Money"??
> no need for some grandiose pseudo-intellectual literary theme
+++++++++++++++++
By the way, here is a good question for the intellectual minds.
Star War is card game came shortly after Star War the movie. True?
Star War the game is unmistakably a result from Star War the movie.
True?
Now if mahjong was a product of the 1850's, (I said if....), how come
nowhere evidence can be found to authenticate its origin or identify
the symbols and their meaning? anybody knows of anything that remotely
relate with a theme in the game?
New games reflect the cultural scenes of an era, as Star War for
example. Star War is a reflection of the scientific advance in the
21st century. Without space-age science and technology, there would
not have been a Star War card game. A new game is for people who are
familiar with the "story".
My question is this. "was mahjong a new game when Westerners found it
in China in the 1850's?"
My next question is: "how come nobody knows what the mahjong "story"
is about then and now?"
Come to think of it. We don't know what the "story" of Matiao or Ma
Diao is either. Although it was written about in Ming by Pan and Feng.
One called it Horse Drops (a leg) and the other called it Horse Hangs
(a leg). Both names are meaningless. Unless the Chinese who played the
game were cowboys or ranchers, horse and cash do not relate. And when
or before a horse loses a leg one way or another, it would be shot
dead...end of story.
I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
construction, in design and in rules of play. See for yourself what
the likelihood is. Compare mahjong with Matiao or Ma Diao in the
Illustrated Book of Mahjong Museum (Japan,1999) and samples in
Sloperama FAQ. There would have been the greatest leap forward in
cultural revolution and without a trace of changes in between.
Incredible!
+++++++++++++
Cheers
Julian Bradfield
> On Jun 3, 5:16 am, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> As you said,
> "a pack of Star Wars themed playing cards in English,
>> all that means is that the cards have pictures from Star Wars."
>
> So, Star War pictures on cards indicate the game's theme relates to
> the story, Star War.
No. My whole point was that they don't have any real theme related to
Star Wars. They're just ordinary playing cards with pictures from Star
Wars instead of the usual large diagrams of the suit values.
See
http://shop.starwars.com/catalog/detailed.xml?product_id=417902&type=img1
for an example.
> Star War is card game came shortly after Star War the movie. True?
False. A Star Wars pack of cards is a normal pack of cards, with
which you play normal card games. It just has pictures from Star Wars.
> Star War the game is unmistakably a result from Star War the movie.
> True?
False, because there isn't a game - there is only a set of
illustrations for cards for existing games.
Just as the 108 outlaws are simply illustrations for a pack of cards,
mah-jong or whatever.
> I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
> evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
> essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
> is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
> evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
> have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
> construction, in design and in rules of play. See for yourself what
> the likelihood is.
Pretty high. Compare it with the Western games. Bridge is now very
stable, but has been around for less than a century; its parent whist
is also now stable, and is about 150 years old; poker is less than a
century old, and may or may not derive from an older Persian game;
but most of the Western games of the 16th century are so dead that
you've never heard of them.
Very similar!
You discount the stabilizing effect of modern globally literate
society - once something becomes popular, it gets frozen in a way that
didn't happen in largely pre-literate societies. Even so, mah-jong has
undergone massive evolutionary changes over the last century in many
different regions - it's only our "classical" game which has been
documented and frozen.
msta...@talktalk.net
> I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
> evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
> essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
> is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
> evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
> have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
I hope that readers of this forum will be aware that the above
description of a connection between Ma Diao and Ma Que is completely
and utterly false.
The only connection I know of that anyone has put forward, is that
between some of the suits and their insignia and their meanings.
Has someone given a different connection????
Please tell us who has said Ma Que is evolved from Ma Diao in its
construction, design and rules of play??
Please tell us so we may read what they said?
Please give us info where they have said that.
I look forward to your answer.
d_...@my-deja.com
> Come to think of it. We don't know what the "story" of Matiao or Ma
> Diao is either. Although it was written about in Ming by Pan and Feng.
> One called it Horse Drops (a leg) and the other called it Horse Hangs
> (a leg). Both names are meaningless. Unless the Chinese who played the
> game were cowboys or ranchers, horse and cash do not relate. And when
> or before a horse loses a leg one way or another, it would be shot
> dead...end of story.
Al, I once told you I doubted your ability to read Chinese, but you
still claimed that you were able to do it. Now I am sure you cannot
read Chinese -- not that there is anything wrong with it, but at least
be honest and admit it like the rest of us.
I gave you a quote from Bai Du (in Chinese) some time ago here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.mahjong/tree/browse_frm/thread/f285a174aed38dbe/aafe713f4575c0e5?hl=en&rnum=131&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.mahjong%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Ff285a174aed38dbe%3Fhl%3Den%26#doc_9756f3fc3673cb26
馬吊牌名稱的由來，歷來說法不一。但根據此牌是從馬子演變而來，牌面上所畫又都與錢有關：文錢是錢，一貫是一千文錢，索是穿錢的繩子，即錢串；而且古
時
一千文錢也叫一吊錢，從中似乎可以看到"馬"與"吊"的影子。若如此認識，馬吊牌的名稱的涵義便不言自明，翻譯過來，大概是"關於錢的牌"。
If you cannot read Chinese, go and ask someone who can translate it
for you.
al
> On Jun 14, 7:42 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Come to think of it. We don't know what the "story" of Matiao or Ma
> > Diao is either. Although it was written about in Ming by Pan and Feng.
> > One called it Horse Drops (a leg) and the other called it Horse Hangs
> > (a leg). Both names are meaningless. Unless the Chinese who played the
> > game were cowboys or ranchers, horse and cash do not relate. And when
> > or before a horse loses a leg one way or another, it would be shot
> > dead...end of story.
>
> Al, I once told you I doubted your ability to read Chinese, but you
> still claimed that you were able to do it. Now I am sure you cannot
> read Chinese -- not that there is anything wrong with it, but at least
> be honest and admit it like the rest of us.
>
don't know what I have translated by now, then you can admit ignorant
or whatever you want.
> I gave you a quote from Bai Du (in Chinese) some time ago here:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.mahjong/tree/browse_frm/thre...
>
I must admit I do not recall, because I had not paid much attention to
your typically thincical remarks. But I believe you must have done it.
Now let me tell you what it means, whether you agree with my
translation or not.
> 馬吊牌名稱的由來，歷來說法不一。Ma Diao pai title source, historically speaking has not been only one. (In other words, the origin of the name Ma Diao is not in agreement). 但根據此牌是從馬子演變而來，but according to the pai [its name] is from the manifestation / change / resemblance of HORSE (the word). 牌面上所畫又都與錢有關：The pai card pictures all relate with money coin. 文錢是錢，wen-coin is money, 一貫是一千文錢，one guan is one-thousand wen. 索是穿錢的繩子，suo is a rope that threads through coins 即錢串；that is a string of coins 而且古
> 時 also in ancient time,
> 一千文錢也叫一吊錢，one thousand wen is called a string of coins. 從中似乎可以看到"馬"與"吊"的影子。In here it seems possible to see the reflection of 'horse' and 'string' 若如此認識，if recognized as such, 馬吊牌的名稱的涵義便不言自明，then Ma Diao name meaning is clear without saying or self-evident.翻譯過來，after translated 大概是"關於錢的牌"。generally is about money.
>
> If you cannot read Chinese, go and ask someone who can translate it
> for you.
I read every word above. Give us your translation if you think you
know better.
Obviously you missed the key point. There is more than one source for
the name Ma Diao. Did you read ans do you agree that 馬吊牌的名稱的涵義便不言自明?
Do you see "馬"與"吊"的影子?
It is saying "馬"與"吊", horse and string being reflection of each other
or they seem to look alike!
That is a reason for naming a game?
The name is "horse", but the cards are generally about money. And you
believe all that?
You can quote Bai Du or whatever you want. That stuff looks to be non-
nonsensical.
++++++++++++++++++
al
wrote:
> On Jun 15, 3:42 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
> > evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
> > essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
> > is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
> > evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
> > have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
> > construction, in design and in rules of play. [snip]
>
> I hope that readers of this forum will be aware that the above
> description of a connection between Ma Diao and Ma Que is completely
> and utterly false.
"Money suits" are claimed inherited from Ma Diao. Alternative
hypotheses for mahjong are required to reference against Ma Diao.
>
Did I put it not clearly to indicate the huge difference between Ma
Diao and Ma Que?
I meant to say Ma Diao is nowhere near Ma Que but some people still
claim ma que is evolved from ma diao.
"Widely regarded as an important progenitor of mah-jongg is Matiao or
Ma Diao...Three of the four matiao suits resemble the three suits in
mah-jongg."
What resemblance and where??
"The composition of a matiao deck and the gameplay of matiao differ
significantly from the composition of a mah-jongg set and the gameplay
of mh-jongg. Matiao clearly is not mah-jongg."
Then how can a claim be valid for one being an important progenitor of
the other?
Compare a Matiao card of any suit with the closest resemblance in
mahjong. You would have stretch your imagination 5 feet long like a
string of 1000 coins.
> The only connection I know of that anyone has put forward, is that
> between some of the suits and their insignia and their meanings.
>
What do you mean by "connections"?
> Has someone given a different connection????
>
"Important progenitor" is what I read.
> Please tell us who has said Ma Que is evolved from Ma Diao in its
> construction, design and rules of play??
>
I merely expressed my disbelief in the fact that ma diao and ma que
are different in construction, design and gameplay, but some people
still believe one is the progenitor of the other.
> [..]
al
>
> > Come to think of it. We don't know what the "story" of Matiao or Ma
> > Diao is either. Although it was written about in Ming by Pan and Feng.
> > One called it Horse Drops (a leg) and the other called it Horse Hangs
> > (a leg). Both names are meaningless. Unless the Chinese who played the
> > game were cowboys or ranchers, horse and cash do not relate. And when
> > or before a horse loses a leg one way or another, it would be shot
> > dead...end of story.
>
> Al, I once told you I doubted your ability to read Chinese, but you
> still claimed that you were able to do it. Now I am sure you cannot
> read Chinese -- not that there is anything wrong with it, but at least
> be honest and admit it like the rest of us.
>
>
> 馬吊牌名稱的由來，歷來說法不一。但根據此牌是從馬子演變而來，牌面上所畫又都與錢有關：文錢是錢，一貫是一千文錢，索是穿錢的繩子，即錢串；而且古
> 時
> 一千文錢也叫一吊錢，從中似乎可以看到"馬"與"吊"的影子。若如此認識，馬吊牌的名稱的涵義便不言自明，翻譯過來，大概是"關於錢的牌"。
>
> If you cannot read Chinese, go and ask someone who can translate it
> for you.
By the way, 吊 is a tricky word. It means 'a hang' or 'to hang'. To
hang a 1000 錢, you would need about 5 feet of rope. "馬" and "吊" become
"馬吊" , Horse-Hang, the name of the game. How you like that nonsense?
In Ma Diao playing rules, certain events win a number of 'hangings' .
吊 correspond with Diao.
Then '一吊錢' is a hanging or 'string' of coins. In my own local
expression, it is called 'chuon 錢' (meaning piercing through the coins
to form a length of them).
++++++++++
D. Pasek
> I wonder what is the theme of mahjong and how it relates to the
> symbolic drawings (Tong, Suo, Wan) and Chinese words (ESWN and Zhong
> Fa Ba). Any fictional story other than "Why A Sparrow" ? Or could it
> be "Money, Money, Money"??
>
> Now if mahjong was a product of the 1850's, (I said if....), how come
> nowhere evidence can be found to authenticate its origin or identify
> the symbols and their meaning? anybody knows of anything that remotely
> relate with a theme in the game?
Al,
Pinochle cards probably have an evolutionary connection to the
standard Western style 4 suit card decks [1(or Ace) to 10 + Jack,
Queen, King], and could then be considered to have evolved from them.
But there is no ‘theme’ that I am aware of, and I do not think that
one would be necessary. Also, many different card games can be played
with standard Western style 4 suit card decks, yet a new ‘theme’ is
not necessary to define a new game (just different rules – and a
different name). Even with Chinese card decks, several different games
can be played with one type of deck; and ‘money-based’ decks with
varying number of cards in them appear to have been developed from one
another, yet there does not seem to be distinct ‘themes’ for each
individual game or type of deck. While each game has a distinct name,
a related ‘theme’ for game play as evidenced by the rules of play
typically does not exist as far as I am aware. I do not understand why
there is an insistence for the existence of such a theme for mahjong
(or for card decks that have been proposed as being what mahjong
evolved from).
Perhaps you consider names of games like ‘Hearts’ or ‘Spades’, which
relate to the importance of those suits in their respective games, to
be ‘themes’? Perhaps I could agree that ‘Go Fish’ has a theme related
to its name and method of play - ‘fishing’ for a desired card (though
unrelated to the specific composition of the card deck); or the Poker
variant of 5-Card-Draw has a name that relates to rules of play; etc.
Are these examples sufficient for your ‘theme’ idea? If not, then
could you please name some card games (Western or Chinese) that you
think do have themes that are reflected in the rules of play &/or
composition of the deck?
On the other hand, I do think that if mahjong evolved from the three
suit money card deck, then the added tiles that are not found in the
deck of precursor cards would have had some meaning to the individual
(s) that added them. ESNW, Wang/King & Seasons tiles were chosen
rather than adding another suit of tiles numbered 1-9 or in favor of
simply adding additional numbers (or symbols) to the existing suits.
So I do think that the added tiles had a specific meaning, but not
that there needs to be an overall theme tying every single tile (as
well as rules of play) together.
Perhaps we are understanding terminology differently. I do think that
the tiles have associated ‘meanings’, which is why I (and others) have
examined things like Chinese cosmology, the Imperial examination
system, the organization of the Qing Bannermen, the ‘Water Margin’
novel, Sparrows, the Taiping, etc. Perhaps it is just your use of the
term ‘theme’ that is confusing me.
I also think that you are off track in using the Arrow (or Dragon)
tiles Zhong, Fa, & Ba when trying to investigate the origins of
mahjong. Just because Zhong, Fa, & Ba comprise an associated set in
the modern game does not mean that they were a part of the original
game. Current evidence seems to indicate that these tiles were later
additions or substitutions to the mahjong sets as they are not in the
earliest sets that we know about (those had Wang/King tiles, etc.). My
current personal thoughts are that Zhong, Fa, & Ba may have originally
been associated with the military examination system (as explained in
an earlier thread), and only later became associated with fortune in
the monetary sense after mahjong spread to individuals without a
military background.
As to a ‘theme’ for mahjong, even though I do not think that a ‘theme’
is necessary to explain the game, it seems that the Taiping hypothesis
(my introductory thoughts on which are in an earlier thread) may
qualify as a ‘theme’. I am even considering the idea that the Himly
set was designed to specifically commemorate the Taiping escape from
Qing imperial troops in the siege of Yongan where their 4/5/1852
escape and battles were considered to be miraculous and lead to
significant increases in the number of followers joining their ranks.
Would this qualify for you in terms of having a ‘theme’ from around
1850?
In regards to the ‘Sparrow’ idea, why do you not accept the simple
explanation published in several sources that the name for the game
came from the chattering noise that came from mixing the tiles? The
name of a game may contain meanings related to game pieces &/or game
play rules, but the function of a game’s name is really satisfied when
it can be used to distinguish one game from another; nothing more is
necessary, and I do not think that an all encompassing theme would
necessarily be expected although some games do contain one.
Dan
msta...@talktalk.net
> On Jun 15, 9:04 am, "mstanw...@talktalk.net" <mstanw...@talktalk.net>
> wrote:
> > I hope that readers of this forum will be aware that the above
> > description of a connection between Ma Diao and Ma Que is completely
> > and utterly false.
> I meant to say Ma Diao is nowhere near Ma Que but some people still
> claim ma que is evolved from ma diao.
I don't care what you 'meant' to say.
It is still wrong. Let's see why.
> "Widely regarded as an important progenitor of mah-jongg is Matiao or
> Ma Diao...Three of the four matiao suits resemble the three suits in
> mah-jongg."
>
> What resemblance and where??
This is from Tom Sloper's website?
The resemblance as explained in the MDH.
This has been widely discussed as you know and I am not going to
rehash the arguments again.
Your doubts and 'counterargumernts' are without evidential backup as
far as I am concerned.
I am also not interested in discussing your evidenceless claims, so
please don't bother trying to insert them into your reply.
> "The composition of a matiao deck and the gameplay of matiao differ
> significantly from the composition of a mah-jongg set and the gameplay
> of mah-jongg. Matiao clearly is not mah-jongg."
>
> Then how can a claim be valid for one being an important progenitor of
> the other?
This requires a basic level of understanding of the English language.
I know English is a 2nd language for you?
I have taken into account this fact endless times, and here as well.
"Matiao clearly is not mah-jongg". Taken literally, this means that
one game in its entirety, is not identical to the other game in its
entirety.
'Progenitor' means that one game has a claimed ancestoral relationship
with the other game. Do you understand?
> Compare a Matiao card of any suit with the closest resemblance in
> mahjong. You would have stretch your imagination 5 feet long like a
> string of 1000 coins.
A straight comparison has not been hypothesised - except by you. The
connection relies on important preceding stages of devolpment. These
are in the form of arguments within the MDH as you already know, don't
you?
Are you asking that others would have to stretch their imagination 5
feet long but not asking others to stretch their imaginative credulity
5000 feet long to entertain your baseless claims?
That would be hypocritical of you, wouldn't it?
> > The only connection I know of that anyone has put forward, is that
> > between some of the suits and their insignia and their meanings.
>
> What do you mean by "connections"?
You know. Please don't waste my time pretending you do not know. If
you forgot, look up past posts on the MDH.
> > Has someone given a different connection????
> "Important progenitor" is what I read.
But you did not read its meaning did you? Otherwise you would not have
asked would you?(see below).
> > Please tell us who has said Ma Que is evolved from Ma Diao in its
> > construction, design and rules of play??
>
> I merely expressed my disbelief in the fact that ma diao and ma que
> are different in construction, design and gameplay, but some people
> still believe one is the progenitor of the other.
Progenitor was related to certain aspects of 3 of the 4 suits. As you
quoted; "Widely regarded as an important progenitor of mah-jongg is
Matiao or Ma Diao...Three of the four matiao suits resemble the three
suits in
mah-jongg."
Does this talk about gameplay? No.
Does this talk about composition of the whole deck? No.
And where is 'construction' mentioned in your quotes? Nowhere.
Where is 'design' mentioned in your quotes? Nowhere.
Your disbelief is false. It is built on your lack of understanding of
what was claimed in the quotes above.
What a waste of our time.
al
> On 2009-06-15, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 3, 5:16 am, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> [...]
> > So, Star War pictures on cards indicate the game's theme relates to
> > the story, Star War.
>
> No. My whole point was that they don't have any real theme related to
> Star Wars. They're just ordinary playing cards with pictures from Star
> Wars instead of the usual large diagrams of the suit values.
> for an example.
>
> > Star War is card game came shortly after Star War the movie. True?
>
> False. A Star Wars pack of cards is a normal pack of cards, with
> which you play normal card games. It just has pictures from Star Wars.
>
I read it to mean the Name of a unique new game, 'Star War'.
In this case, what can be seen is pop culture and the signs that say
space-age has arrived.
It is no different than to have playmate pictures like some card decks
do.
> >[..]
>
> Just as the 108 outlaws are simply illustrations for a pack of cards,
> mah-jong or whatever.
>
Whatever, but not mahjong. Classical Mahjong is uniquely mahjong.
+++++++++++++
Have you taken a closer look at the two decks of cards on page 36 and
and page 38 in the Illustrated Book of Mahjong Museum?
The descriptive "denominations" are somewhat different and rather
meaningful. Check them out.
+++++++++++
> > I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
> > evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
> > essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
> > is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
> > evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
> > have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
> > construction, in design and in rules of play. See for yourself what
> > the likelihood is.
>
> Pretty high. Compare it with the Western games. Bridge is now very
> stable, but has been around for less than a century; its parent whist
> is also now stable, and is about 150 years old; poker is less than a
> century old, and may or may not derive from an older Persian game;
> but most of the Western games of the 16th century are so dead that
> you've never heard of them.
> Very similar!
>
The difference among the examples are minimal compared to the
differences between ma diao and mahjong. Mahong is "bone" construction
instead of paper; simplicity verses complexity in design; expensive
verses economy in cost / class; and more.
Most of all, mhjong is NOT trick-taking like ma diao. That is a huge
difference in concept.
Whist and bridge etc. do not compare.
> You discount the stabilizing effect of modern globally literate
> society - once something becomes popular, it gets frozen in a way that
> didn't happen in largely pre-literate societies. Even so, mah-jong has
> undergone massive evolutionary changes over the last century in many
> different regions - it's only our "classical" game which has been
> documented and frozen.
That's a good point.
+++++++++++++
al
wrote:
> On Jun 16, 1:28 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 15, 9:04 am, "mstanw...@talktalk.net" <mstanw...@talktalk.net>
> > wrote:
> > > I hope that readers of this forum will be aware that the above
> > > description of a connection between Ma Diao and Ma Que is completely
> > > and utterly false.
> > I meant to say Ma Diao is nowhere near Ma Que but some people still
> > claim ma que is evolved from ma diao.
>
> I don't care what you 'meant' to say.
>
> It is still wrong. Let's see why.
>
> > "Widely regarded as an important progenitor of mah-jongg is Matiao or
> > Ma Diao...Three of the four matiao suits resemble the three suits in
> > mah-jongg."
>
> > What resemblance and where??
>
> This is from Tom Sloper's website?
>
> The resemblance as explained in the MDH.
>
> This has been widely discussed as you know and I am not going to
> rehash the arguments again.
>
> Your doubts and 'counterargumernts' are without evidential backup as
> far as I am concerned.
>
> I am also not interested in discussing your evidenceless claims, so
> please don't bother trying to insert them into your reply.
>
> > "The composition of a matiao deck and the gameplay of matiao differ
> > significantly from the composition of a mah-jongg set and the gameplay
> > of mah-jongg. Matiao clearly is not mah-jongg."
>
> > Then how can a claim be valid for one being an important progenitor of
> > the other?
>
> This requires a basic level of understanding of the English language.
> I know English is a 2nd language for you?
>
One does not need a masters degree to understand what is written.
[..]
> "Matiao clearly is not mah-jongg". Taken literally, this means that
> one game in its entirety, is not identical to the other game in its
> entirety.
>
Really? Then on second thought, perhaps a masters degree is needed to
appreciate such writing style.
"Clearly", I missed the finer point.
> 'Progenitor' means that one game has a claimed ancestoral relationship
> with the other game. Do you understand?
>
I understand alright. The problem is find the "ancestoral
relationship"
> > Compare a Matiao card of any suit with the closest resemblance in
> > mahjong. You would have [to] stretch your imagination 5 feet long like a
> > string of 1000 coins.
I hope you notice the length of 1000-coin string. It would be about 5
feet long. Have you ever wonder why people would put the coins in such
long and heavy strings? What if the string breaks?
>
> A straight comparison has not been hypothesised - except by you. The
> connection relies on important preceding stages of devolpment. These
> are in the form of arguments within the MDH as you already know, don't
> you?
>
There is no evidence of "stages". For a comparison, read my reply to
Julian.
On the other hand, here are evidences for you to consider. Ma Diao is
different from mahjong in construction, design, number, appearance and
character as well as gameplay.
Your MDH is based on false assumption. I told you that before.
> Are you asking that others would have to stretch their imagination 5
> feet long but not asking others to stretch their imaginative credulity
> 5000 feet long to entertain your baseless claims?
>
> That would be hypocritical of you, wouldn't it?
>
At least 4 times 5-ft long.
Quadruplicated. Remember?
> > > The only connection I know of that anyone has put forward, is that
> > > between some of the suits and their insignia and their meanings.
>
That is not enough.
> > What do you mean by "connections"?
>
> You know. Please don't waste my time pretending you do not know. If
> you forgot, look up past posts on the MDH.
>
If it's the same old hopot, I would not bother to waste my time.
> > > Has someone given a different connection????
> > "Important progenitor" is what I read.
>
> But you did not read its meaning did you? Otherwise you would not have
> asked would you?(see below).
>
I did. I never agree to the claim.
> > > Please tell us who has said Ma Que is evolved from Ma Diao in its
> > > construction, design and rules of play??
>
> > I merely expressed my disbelief in the fact that ma diao and ma que
> > are different in construction, design and gameplay, but some people
> > still believe one is the progenitor of the other.
>
> Progenitor was related to certain aspects of 3 of the 4 suits. As you
> quoted; "Widely regarded as an important progenitor of mah-jongg is
> Matiao or Ma Diao...Three of the four matiao suits resemble the three
> suits in
> mah-jongg."
>
Compare the ma diao cards, any suit, with mahjong tiles, any suit. Do
they look alike? Do they feel similar? How many of each in the two
games? No. No. No.
> Does this talk about gameplay? No.
> Does this talk about composition of the whole deck? No.
> And where is 'construction' mentioned in your quotes? Nowhere.
> Where is 'design' mentioned in your quotes? Nowhere.
>
Then what are the ancestral "connections"?
> Your disbelief is false. It is built on your lack of understanding of
> what was claimed in the quotes above.
>
Is this a sign of arrogance or ignorance?
My belief or disbelief is my own and it is real and true as far as I
am concerned.
>[..]
d_...@my-deja.com
> I must admit I do not recall, because I had not paid much attention to
> your typically thincical remarks. But I believe you must have done it.
Al, I am here to help you -- I even pointed you to the Chinese
character dictionary to help you do searches. So I don't understand
why you react this way to people. Maybe if you treat others better
they will also be nicer to you and be more willing to help you.
> The name is "horse", but the cards are generally about money. And you
> believe all that?
You missed the key to this whole "money suit" reference. When you
understand what "馬子" means, then you can discuss this topic and people
will be amazed at your level of knowledge.
al
> On Jun 15, 4:25 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I must admit I do not recall, because I had not paid much attention to
> > your typically thincical remarks. But I believe you must have done it.
>
> Al, I am here to help you -- I even pointed you to the Chinese
> character dictionary to help you do searches. So I don't understand
> why you react this way to people. Maybe if you treat others better
> they will also be nicer to you and be more willing to help you.
>
Chinese. And you had made that remark even before "馬子" came up.
Obviously you think I missed its hidden meaning. I am sure you would
like to tell about its intricacy in historical term. I took "馬子"
literally as 'a little horse' or the word, horse. Even if that is a
mistake, that does not mean I can not read Chinese. It only means you
might be a better reader of Chinese than I am. So I reacted to your
unfair and unkind sweeping statement. Now do you understand?
I noticed you hardly wrote anything for a long time. I can not think
of anything you contributed to the subject mahjong lately. Give your
fuller view on the topic MDH (money-derivation hypothesis). Share your
wisdom if you have it.
> > The name is "horse", but the cards are generally about money. And you
> > believe all that?
>
> You missed the key to this whole "money suit" reference. When you
> understand what "馬子" means, then you can discuss this topic and people
> will be amazed at your level of knowledge.
+++++++
What is the "key to this whole money suit"? Your turn to unlock it.
(Oops....good thing I checked the spelling). ^z^.
It's not my level of knowledge people care to amaze at. They want to
par with your level now.
++++++++
al
> On Jun 14, 10:42 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I wonder what is the theme of mahjong and how it relates to the
> > symbolic drawings (Tong, Suo, Wan) and Chinese words (ESWN and Zhong
> > Fa Ba). Any fictional story other than "Why A Sparrow" ? Or could it
> > be "Money, Money, Money"??
>
> [snip]
> > Now if mahjong was a product of the 1850's, (I said if....), how come
> > nowhere evidence can be found to authenticate its origin or identify
> > the symbols and their meaning? anybody knows of anything that remotely
> > relate with a theme in the game?
>
Why?
My simplistic answer is perhaps mahjong is older than ma diao. It
might even be so old that all records have `been lost or disappeared.
What other possible reasons?
> Al,
>
> Pinochle cards probably have an evolutionary connection to the
> standard Western style 4 suit card decks [1(or Ace) to 10 + Jack,
> Queen, King], and could then be considered to have evolved from them.
> But there is no ‘theme’ that I am aware of, and I do not think that
> one would be necessary. Also, many different card games can be played
> with standard Western style 4 suit card decks, yet a new ‘theme’ is
> not necessary to define a new game (just different rules – and a
> different name). Even with Chinese card decks, several different games
> can be played with one type of deck; and ‘money-based’ decks with
> varying number of cards in them appear to have been developed from one
> another, yet there does not seem to be distinct ‘themes’ for each
> individual game or type of deck. While each game has a distinct name,
> a related ‘theme’ for game play as evidenced by the rules of play
> typically does not exist as far as I am aware. I do not understand why
> there is an insistence for the existence of such a theme for mahjong
> (or for card decks that have been proposed as being what mahjong
> evolved from).
>
Games are like books or poems. Some have better theme than others.
Some may not have it at all.
I regard games as results of creative effort. Mahjong is an all-time
classic in my estimation.
> Perhaps you consider names of games like ‘Hearts’ or ‘Spades’, which
> relate to the importance of those suits in their respective games, to
> be ‘themes’? Perhaps I could agree that ‘Go Fish’ has a theme related
> to its name and method of play - ‘fishing’ for a desired card (though
> unrelated to the specific composition of the card deck); or the Poker
> variant of 5-Card-Draw has a name that relates to rules of play; etc.
> Are these examples sufficient for your ‘theme’ idea? If not, then
> could you please name some card games (Western or Chinese) that you
> think do have themes that are reflected in the rules of play &/or
> composition of the deck?
>
Chinese chess is a good example.
> On the other hand, I do think that if mahjong evolved from the three
> suit money card deck, then the added tiles that are not found in the
> deck of precursor cards would have had some meaning to the individual
> (s) that added them. ESNW, Wang/King & Seasons tiles were chosen
> rather than adding another suit of tiles numbered 1-9 or in favor of
> simply adding additional numbers (or symbols) to the existing suits.
> So I do think that the added tiles had a specific meaning, but not
> that there needs to be an overall theme tying every single tile (as
> well as rules of play) together.
>
Those are not "money suits" in mahjong (in my opinion). Ma Diao is not
a progenitor of mahjong.
++++++++++
> Perhaps we are understanding terminology differently. I do think that
> the tiles have associated ‘meanings’, which is why I (and others) have
> examined things like Chinese cosmology, the Imperial examination
> system, the organization of the Qing Bannermen, the ‘Water Margin’
> novel, Sparrows, the Taiping, etc. Perhaps it is just your use of the
> term ‘theme’ that is confusing me.
>
My belief is the game has a philosophical idea as a design foundation.
The symbols on the tiles and the rules of play are coherent to a
central concept related to cosmology which had a pervasive influence
in Chinese culture and tradition.
> I also think that you are off track in using the Arrow (or Dragon)
> tiles Zhong, Fa, & Ba when trying to investigate the origins of
> mahjong. Just because Zhong, Fa, & Ba comprise an associated set in
> the modern game does not mean that they were a part of the original
> game. Current evidence seems to indicate that these tiles were later
> additions or substitutions to the mahjong sets as they are not in the
> earliest sets that we know about (those had Wang/King tiles, etc.). My
> current personal thoughts are that Zhong, Fa, & Ba may have originally
> been associated with the military examination system (as explained in
> an earlier thread), and only later became associated with fortune in
> the monetary sense after mahjong spread to individuals without a
> military background.
>
'Fortune' is a commoners' notion. The game was invented not by
commoners nor was it invented for commons. The game belongs to the
regal class. Money was not a concern. That is my opinion.
> As to a ‘theme’ for mahjong, even though I do not think that a ‘theme’
> is necessary to explain the game, it seems that the Taiping hypothesis
> (my introductory thoughts on which are in an earlier thread) may
> qualify as a ‘theme’. I am even considering the idea that the Himly
> set was designed to specifically commemorate the Taiping escape from
> Qing imperial troops in the siege of Yongan where their 4/5/1852
> escape and battles were considered to be miraculous and lead to
> significant increases in the number of followers joining their ranks.
> Would this qualify for you in terms of having a ‘theme’ from around
> 1850?
>
It is not necessary to know the theme of mahjong to play it. Obviously
so many people play the game are still unaware and unconcerned about a
theme to it. By the same token, how good a theme fits the game matters
only to ourselves. Does the theme explain the game's characteristics?
How well the game can be explained is a measure of the design concept
in terms of a theme, I believe.
Take MDH, for example, it explains nothing in the game. The written
words are important parts of the mahjong story. Money does not relate
in the Winds / Directions. As I said before, if those circles were
coins, then Winds wouldn't and shouldn't have been added. Since the
circles are there and Winds added, then money has no place in the
game.
Your hypothesis has to do better in explaining the game's unique
features.
+++++++++++
> In regards to the ‘Sparrow’ idea, why do you not accept the simple
> explanation published in several sources that the name for the game
> came from the chattering noise that came from mixing the tiles? The
> name of a game may contain meanings related to game pieces &/or game
> play rules, but the function of a game’s name is really satisfied when
> it can be used to distinguish one game from another; nothing more is
> necessary, and I do not think that an all encompassing theme would
> necessarily be expected although some games do contain one.
>
I would think the concept for the game should have come before the
tiles start making chattering noise.
I know sparrows and bamboo trees are inseparable in paintings. I
suspect they may have a symbiosis relationship. However, the game has
changed its name. And I doubt Sparrow was its original name.
+++++++++++++
Cheers
D. Pasek
> There are ma diao manuals from Ming but no majong 'history' from Qing.
> Why?
> My simplistic answer is perhaps mahjong is older than ma diao. It
> might even be so old that all records have `been lost or disappeared.
> What other possible reasons?
Al,
“Perhaps mahjong is older than ma diao.” – Perhaps. But we do not know
yet, and there is no hard evidence that I am aware of that would
support this assertion. As I understand your post, you think that
older history is more likely to have lost records than more recent
history, and you therefore think that mahjong with dated history
starting from ~ 1868-1876 may be older than ma diao with historical
records dating to the Ming. Is this assessment of your thinking about
right, and is this all you have that leads you to think this way?
The unexpressed assumption here may be that the date of invention and
popularization of a game corresponds directly with the dates that that
game is first mentioned in historical records. Do you not think that
ma diao was invented and played for many years prior to it being
written about?
Why would you think that there would be no time gap between when
mahjong was invented, then popularized, and when it was first written
about? Even if the earliest written records of mahjong were lost, why
would you think that there would be no records in the intervening
years between its invention and the first known mention of mahjong in
the late 19th century? Why would you think that mahjong would not have
any written records during the intervening years? This thinking does
not make sense to me!
I personally think that a much simpler explanation would be that
mahjong was not invented and popularized until the middle or late
1800s! If the Himly set represents an early version of the game of
mahjong, and if it reflects Taiping organization and ideology as I
hypothesize that it might, then the earliest that this set would have
been created would have been December of 1851 when the Wang/King
titles were given to the Taiping leadership. The latest date for its
creation by the Taiping would have been 1864 when the Taiping were
defeated (or possibly as late as 1871 when the last surviving Taiping
army was crushed). I think that a game possibly invented between
December 1851 and 1871 and only first recorded in the late 1800s
(Himly ~1868-1876) seems absolutely reasonable!
What does bother me is that I have not located any direct evidence
from Taiping history (or from recollections of modern Hakka Chinese)
that mentions any form of mahjong (or anything different about their
modern method of play that differs from typical Chinese rules of
play). I have been told that there is much written about Taiping
leisure activities without mention of mahjong, but I have been unable
to verify this since almost none of this information has been
translated as far as I can find. I have only found a sentence here or
there that may briefly mention that, for example, women amused
themselves with embroidery and music. I do not know how extensively
Chinese sources on Taiping leisure activities has been searched, but
if anyone could locate this information for me, I would appreciate it.
Dan
al
>
> > I must admit I do not recall, because I had not paid much attention to
> > your typically thincical remarks. But I believe you must have done it.
>
> > The name is "horse", but the cards are generally about money. And you
> > believe all that?
>
> You missed the key to this whole "money suit" reference. When you
> understand what "馬子" means, then you can discuss this topic and people
> will be amazed at your level of knowledge.
I looked for your "key".
Let me first say you must be a better reader and better educated in
Chinese than I am. I read the quote over again carefully. I think I
now see another meaning there, although I disagree with it.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Is this the subtle meaning in Ma Diao where a 串 of coins looks like
the pictograph of "horse =馬" as well as that of "吊"?
In that case, why not add "貫" to the list? 貫 and 串 look more like a
string of coins'.
The name *貫 串* would be better than "馬 吊" . *貫 串* looks even more
like drawing of 'string of coins' on some cards too.
So, I do not believe 馬 吊 name-story as interpreted. Besides, where is
the evidence? In my view, the name could be a mistake in using
different words of similar sounds.
++++++++++++++++++
馬吊牌名稱的由來，歷來說法不一。但根據此牌是從馬子演變而來，牌面上所畫又都與錢有關：文錢是錢，一貫是一千文錢，索是穿錢的繩子，即錢串；
++++++++++++++++++
而且古 時 [And in olden time]
千文錢也叫一吊錢，[ a thousand wen is also called a string of coins]
從中似乎可以看到"馬"與"吊"的影子。[Therein it seems almost possible to see the
shadow / resemblance of "馬" and "吊".]
若如此認識，I If that is identified / understood,]
馬吊牌的名稱的涵義便不言自明，[ the meaning contained in the name of Ma Diao pai
becomes clear by itself without explanation]
+++++++++++++
Since you had something to say about this part of the sentence in my
previous translation, you may want to comment and clarify.
翻譯過來，[Translation in the past] or [translated,
大概是"關於錢的牌"。Generally it is related to cards of money.
+++++++
al
> On Jun 16, 6:04 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > There are ma diao manuals from Ming but no majong 'history' from Qing.
> > Why?
> > My simplistic answer is perhaps mahjong is older than ma diao. It
> > might even be so old that all records have `been lost or disappeared.
> > What other possible reasons?
>
> yet, and there is no hard evidence that I am aware of that would
> support this assertion. As I understand your post, you think that
> older history is more likely to have lost records than more recent
> history, and you therefore think that mahjong with dated history
> starting from ~ 1868-1876 may be older than ma diao with historical
> records dating to the Ming. Is this assessment of your thinking about
> right, and is this all you have that leads you to think this way?
>
items.
In addition, bones were carved with symbols before papers used for
writing. Carving needs no color-ink or printing.
Mahjong tiles are closer to dice than paper cards are to dice in
overall historical development of civilization. That is my guiding
light. The material and process for mahjong tile production were there
before those for paper cards.
> The unexpressed assumption here may be that the date of invention and
> popularization of a game corresponds directly with the dates that that
> game is first mentioned in historical records. Do you not think that
> ma diao was invented and played for many years prior to it being
> written about?
>
The age of ma Diao is not known. Pan or Feng only learned and wrote
about it in Ming.
Ma Diao is not a "Ming game".
Likewise for mahjong, it is not a 'Qing game'. Only somebody wrote
about it first in Qing.
I gave an example in earlier posts. Diamond was found first about 5000
years ago in India, but that does not mean the age of diamond is only
5000 years old. It could be as old as the earth itself.
> Why would you think that there would be no time gap between when
> mahjong was invented, then popularized, and when it was first written
> about? Even if the earliest written records of mahjong were lost, why
> would you think that there would be no records in the intervening
> years between its invention and the first known mention of mahjong in
> the late 19th century? Why would you think that mahjong would not have
> any written records during the intervening years? This thinking does
> not make sense to me!
>
You have a good point here. It involves a few questions. A separate
reply may be needed.
Would you break down the time periods for me? I need to appreciate
your questions more and to answer them.
What if the game was first invented in basic form thousands years ago
and what if it was first played only in exclusive environment and what
if the rules and design were so simple that no instruction books were
needed for Chinese people?
Could that answer some of your questions above?
> I personally think that a much simpler explanation would be that
> mahjong was not invented and popularized until the middle or late
> 1800s! If the Himly set represents an early version of the game of
> mahjong, and if it reflects Taiping organization and ideology as I
> hypothesize that it might, then the earliest that this set would have
> been created would have been December of 1851 when the Wang/King
> titles were given to the Taiping leadership. The latest date for its
> creation by the Taiping would have been 1864 when the Taiping were
> defeated (or possibly as late as 1871 when the last surviving Taiping
> army was crushed). I think that a game possibly invented between
> December 1851 and 1871 and only first recorded in the late 1800s
> (Himly ~1868-1876) seems absolutely reasonable!
>
I see you have done a lot of work here. I don't pay too much attention
to any particular set of the game. My emphasis is on the rules of
play. As I said before, "2 and 3; that's the key".
Here is something I learned. Games are based on simple ideas. Most of
them don't have any.
We just have to examine all kinds of ideas before we can simplify.
One philosophical difference for mahjong between Taiping and Yijing is
in the approach of gameplay.
Combination pattern forming is non-aggression which is opposite to
Taiping warfare environment.
Is that a possible war-and-peace conflict somewhat?
> What does bother me is that I have not located any direct evidence
> from Taiping history (or from recollections of modern Hakka Chinese)
> that mentions any form of mahjong (or anything different about their
> modern method of play that differs from typical Chinese rules of
> play). I have been told that there is much written about Taiping
> leisure activities without mention of mahjong, but I have been unable
> to verify this since almost none of this information has been
> translated as far as I can find. I have only found a sentence here or
> there that may briefly mention that, for example, women amused
> themselves with embroidery and music. I do not know how extensively
> Chinese sources on Taiping leisure activities has been searched, but
> if anyone could locate this information for me, I would appreciate it.
>
Life without electricity and oil was quite different from nowadays.
People used to work with their hands, feet and their whole body to get
chores done and get food for the family. The majority of people, men
or women, would be too tired by sun-set. Traditionally, Games and
leisure were not for the 'virtuous'.
+++++++++++++
D. Pasek
> Would you break down the time periods for me? I need to appreciate
> your questions more and to answer them.
Al,
You asked me to “break down the time periods,” but I must not
understand you. It seems obvious to me, so you must mean something
else. Ma diao was mentioned during the Ming, and you have proposed
that mahjong may be older than ma diao, which means that you seem to
think that mahjong may have existed prior to 1644 when the Ming ended.
But no sources mentioning mahjong have been found prior to the late
1800s. Than means that there is a time period of over 200 years where,
if mahjong already existed, it was not mentioned as far as is
currently known.
On Jun 18, 9:23 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> What if the game was first invented in basic form thousands years ago
> and what if it was first played only in exclusive environment and what
> if the rules and design were so simple that no instruction books were
> needed for Chinese people?
“If it was first played only in an exclusive environment” - like only
among followers of the Taiping who shared the belief that the Taiping
leader was the younger brother of Jesus...?
On Jun 18, 9:23 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> One philosophical difference for mahjong between Taiping and Yijing is
> in the approach of gameplay.
>
> Combination pattern forming is non-aggression which is opposite to
> Taiping warfare environment.
> Is that a possible war-and-peace conflict somewhat?
No, there is no conflict (or philosophical difference) except what you
may create in your own biased, unsupported approach to ‘research’. You
seem to be fishing (or trolling) here for anything you can think of
that may support your proposals while attempting to discredit the
Taiping hypothesis. There are so many unsupported ideas necessary for
this line of thought that a reply is not warranted, although I will
make the following brief comment since you did ask the question. The
Taiping goal was to bring heavenly peace to their earthly paradise;
and the Yijing was consulted concerning military endeavors, so it is
certainly not free from a connection to warfare!
Dan
al
> On Jun 18, 9:23 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Would you break down the time periods for me? I need to appreciate
> > your questions more and to answer them.
>
> Al,
>
> You asked me to “break down the time periods,” but I must not
> understand you. It seems obvious to me, so you must mean something
> else. Ma diao was mentioned during the Ming, and you have proposed
> that mahjong may be older than ma diao, which means that you seem to
> think that mahjong may have existed prior to 1644 when the Ming ended.
> But no sources mentioning mahjong have been found prior to the late
> 1800s. Than means that there is a time period of over 200 years where,
> if mahjong already existed, it was not mentioned as far as is
> currently known.
>
absence of supporting explanations.for each intervening period. I was
unclear about the question. Since I considered your question
important, I asked for clarification. I need to have the answers.
> On Jun 18, 9:23 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > What if the game was first invented in basic form thousands years ago
> > and what if it was first played only in exclusive environment and what
> > if the rules and design were so simple that no instruction books were
> > needed for Chinese people?
>
> “If it was first played only in an exclusive environment” - like only
> among followers of the Taiping who shared the belief that the Taiping
> leader was the younger brother of Jesus...?
>
What do you think? If that offers a satisfactory explanation for the
game, its symbols, terminology and rules of play. Then that is your
hypothesis according to the way you would state it. Nobody knows the
game in terms of Taiping better than you do.
We can be biased based on our own sense of personal insight on a
particular aspect of a subject.
+++++++++++
> On Jun 18, 9:23 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > One philosophical difference for mahjong between Taiping and Yijing is
> > in the approach of gameplay.
>
> > Combination pattern forming is non-aggression which is opposite to
> > Taiping warfare environment.
> > Is that a possible war-and-peace conflict somewhat?
>
> No, there is no conflict (or philosophical difference) except what you
> may create in your own biased, unsupported approach to ‘research’.
I am working on my own "biased unsupported approach" because I have
reason to believe the answer to the question of mahjong origin has
escaped from detection by all the 'research' done so far. Why follow
those who missed the mark already? If one goes along with what has
been mistaken in the past, how is one going to find anything
different?
++++++
> You seem to be fishing (or trolling) here for anything you can think of
> that may support your proposals
I do keep my eyes and ears open. I am looking into books too. I now
have a better explanation for the "2 and 3" rule. I want to give you
credit for helping me to see yin-yang is not an identical pair.
Objection and criticism can be useful and beneficial. But allow me to
have confidence in my own belief.
+++++++++++++
while attempting to discredit the
> Taiping hypothesis. There are so many unsupported ideas necessary for
> this line of thought that a reply is not warranted, although I will
> make the following brief comment since you did ask the question. The
> Taiping goal was to bring heavenly peace to their earthly paradise;
> and the Yijing was consulted concerning military endeavors, so it is
> certainly not free from a connection to warfare!
>
You did not mention how yijing was consulted. Was there details
recorded? I wonder if consultation was for a "Yes or No" answer to
take military action or the question was "when" to do it, such as
before or after a certain date.
I see the situation differently. It shows the universal appeal and
wide application of divination in Chinese history and tradition.
Divination is a concept in practice for thousands of years and it's
still in use now. Compared to Taiping, divination yijing is a movie
still running whereas Taiping is a blip gone off the screen a long
while back. Which do you think has greater influence on Chinese
culture?
By the way, "consulted", as you described above, has the meaning of
"Suo3". Suo3 is to ask, to seek, to demand, and to extract [an answer
to a question, problem or situation]. That is what suo3 means in
mahjong as also in the dictionary; it is not "a string of cash".
+++++++++++++
Cheers.....al
D. Pasek
> I am working on my own "biased unsupported approach" because I have
> reason to believe the answer to the question of mahjong origin has
> escaped from detection by all the 'research' done so far. Why follow
> those who missed the mark already? If one goes along with what has
> been mistaken in the past, how is one going to find anything
> different?
> Objection and criticism can be useful and beneficial. But allow me to
> have confidence in my own belief.
Al,
I am fine with you pursuing your own ideas, and I actually encourage
you to explore novel theories. However, I would prefer that your posts
dealt more with supporting those ideas over attacking differing ideas.
An attempt to weaken opposing ideas does not logically mean that your
ideas would thus be strengthened, and I would prefer that your
energies be directed at strengthening your ideas through searching for
direct supporting evidence and through thoughts that may explain that
evidence. Sometimes evidence for two different theories may conflict,
but please make your case by making your own hypothesis stronger. If
your ideas are strong enough, then there would be no need to attempt
to discredit other ideas as researchers would be able to make up their
own minds based on the presented evidence.
If you criticize other theories merely in an attempt to strengthen
your own, then don’t be surprised if other researchers take offense
and defend their ideas by responding to your criticisms (even possibly
attacking your own theory if it is perceived to be linked to your
criticisms). On the other hand, constructive criticism is often
helpful and appreciated. My perception is that you tend more towards
antagonistic criticism than constructive criticism.
Many of us have probably researched aspects of Chinese cosmology in
our attempts to understand the history of mahjong and the meanings of
the various tiles in the variously constructed early mahjong sets that
have been discovered, the rules of play, etc. We certainly may have
missed things that you may be able to uncover. But for me personally,
my investigations lead me to the tendency to prefer the Taiping
hypothesis at this time, pending additional information being
discovered.
Dan
al
> Al, I am here to help you -- I even pointed you to the Chinese
>
You have been helpful and I have told you more than once.
Now you have shown you do know more (although I don't know how much
more) than I do in Chinese language and history, I ask you, if you
can, explain the following for me. I quote it below.
If possible, word for word first, then general meaning and describe
the reference source. Thanks.
赵简子将袭 卫,使 史默往睹之。----《吕氏春秋·召类》
al
> On 2009-06-15, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 3, 5:16 am, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> [...]
>
> > So, Star War pictures on cards indicate the game's theme relates to
> > the story, Star War.
>
> No. My whole point was that they don't have any real theme related to
> Star Wars. They're just ordinary playing cards with pictures from Star
> Wars instead of the usual large diagrams of the suit values.
> > Star War is card game came shortly after Star War the movie. True?
>
> False. A Star Wars pack of cards is a normal pack of cards, with
> which you play normal card games. It just has pictures from Star Wars.
>
see.
> > Star War the game is unmistakably a result from Star War the movie.
> > True?
>
> False, because there isn't a game - there is only a set of
> illustrations for cards for existing games.
>
The answer could be 'YES', for the publicity of the name.
[..]
>
> > I find it hard to believe that some people still claim mahjong is
> > evolved from Ma Diao or Matiao. Look at the two games. Old Mahjong
> > essentially hardly changed in the past 150 years since Himly. Ma Diao
> > is only 300 years older if we go by the so called "documented
> > evidence" in writing by Pan and Feng. Yet, it's believed mahjong could
> > have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
> > construction, in design and in rules of play. See for yourself what
> > the likelihood is.
>
Lu Rong's 38-card deck was about 200 years prior to the 40-card Ma
Diao, from comparison of the ages of Rong and Pan/Feng. What were the
big changes you noticed between the two decks?
Zero Cash and Hlf Cash were added (from 38 to 40 cards). A few
nicknames were different. The huge range of cash denomination remains.
And that is suppose to be the DNA of all "cash-based" games.
I asked how likely it was for Ma Diao to transform from a 40-card
paper game to a 136-tile bamboo game since it's believed mahjong could
have evolved from Matiao into a totally different game, in
construction, in design and in rules of play. See for yourself what
the likelihood is. You replied.
> Pretty high. Compare it with the Western games. Bridge is now very
> stable, but has been around for less than a century; its parent whist
> is also now stable, and is about 150 years old; poker is less than a
> century old, and may or may not derive from an older Persian game;
> but most of the Western games of the 16th century are so dead that
> you've never heard of them.
> Very similar!
>
> You discount the stabilizing effect of modern globally literate
> society - once something becomes popular, it gets frozen in a way that
> didn't happen in largely pre-literate societies. Even so, mah-jong has
> undergone massive evolutionary changes over the last century in many
> different regions - it's only our "classical" game which has been
> documented and frozen.
Ma Diao was played in Ming (1368-1644). Mahjong was "uncovered" by
westerners after1850 or there about. Those intervening years were
hardly "modern" times in China. Neither game had authenticated
evidence for its origin.
Furthermore the freezing effect would have been greater in the absence
of mass media and wireless network. Transformation from a complex
paper full-page drawing to a simple bamboo tile with two words or a
symbol (stick or circle) is unthinkable.
One more point to ponder: natural evolution is in the direction from
simplicity to complexity. If Natural Selection works similarly in
general, Liu Zhu [Big Bo], Dice game, Tien-Gow and Mahjong are among
the simplest of them all.
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Cheers.....