Flowers - The sequence and other questions
Cofa Tsui
Introduction: The questions below are merely meant to initiate a discussion
where readers who are interested in the topic could express their ideas,
comments and opinions - That's why "WHY" is asked in almost all questions.
We all know there are numerous variants and each has its own system. Readers
shall note that the discussion (and its contents) shall not mean to attack,
harm or influence any particular variant or variants.
Here are the questions related to Flowers:
(a) This sequence of Flowers, namely, Plum (1), Orchid (2), Chrysanthemum
(3) and Bamboo (4), is common in all literature I ever read. However, it is
just noted that CMCR has a slightly different sequence - It shows "Bamboo
(3) and Chrysanthemum (4)" instead (page 3 of the CMCR booklet). Any idea
which sequence is correct (or wrong)? And why?
(b) "Flowers" is normally used as a collective term for Flowers (Plum,
Orchid, etc.) and Seasons (Spring, Summer, etc.) and the latter two are
represented in colours blue and red, respectively (or not in any particular
order).
- Which colour should go to Flowers, which to Seasons? And why?
- Should Flowers go first, or Seasons? And why?
(c) Should Flowers and Seasons be separated into two categories (so that
Seasons is no longer part of Flowers)? And why?
Cheers!
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
ithinc
Plum 梅
Orchid 兰
Chrysanthemum 菊
Bamboo 竹
By searching "梅兰菊竹" through www.google.com, you can get 22,700
items, while by searching "梅兰竹菊" you can get 379,000 items. In
most literature, it should be "梅兰竹菊", respectively
corresponding to Winter,Spring,Summer,Autumn.
Cofa Tsui
news:1145245908....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> English Chinese
> Plum ?
> Orchid ?
> Chrysanthemum ?
> Bamboo ?
>
> By searching "????" through www.google.com, you can get 22,700
> items, while by searching "????" you can get 379,000 items. In
> most literature, it should be "????", respectively
> corresponding to Winter,Spring,Summer,Autumn.
>
Hi "Ithinc",
It's an interesting piece of news to me! I searched google (it always brings
me to google.ca automatically) as well and got these results:
Search / Listings
Plum Orchid Bamboo Chrysanthemum = 61,400
Plum Orchid Chrysanthemum Bamboo = 61,400
???? = 368,000
???? = 23,300
So "Plum Orchid Bamboo Chrysanthemum" seems be the logical order. Then, how
about the order of the Seasons, Spring Summer Autumn Winter, when used in
conjunction with the Flowers?
I guess the latter is a widely accepted order of the Seasons (in mahjong),
isn't it?
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Cofa Tsui
(Sorry for the mess. I now re-post with the correct encoding...)
Hi "Ithinc",
It's an interesting piece of news to me! I searched google (it always brings
me to google.ca automatically) as well and got these results:
Search / Listings
Plum Orchid Bamboo Chrysanthemum = 61,400
Plum Orchid Chrysanthemum Bamboo = 61,400
梅兰竹菊 = 368,000
梅兰菊竹 = 23,300
ithinc
The "春夏秋冬"(Spring Summer Autumn Winter) and "梅兰竹菊"(Plum
Orchid Bamboo Chrysanthemum) or sometimes "梅兰菊竹"(Plum Orchid
Chrysanthemum Bamboo) are idioms in Chinese, while when linked we often
say "春兰"(Spring Plum),"夏竹"(Summer Bamboo),"秋菊"(Autumn
Chrysanthemum),"冬梅"(Winter Plum) for their flowering or growing
season. But in mahjong domain, it seems "Plum Orchid Chrysanthemum
Bamboo" order is more often used. I don't know why and it's also a
question in my mind all the time.
Pwee Keng Ho
Cockeral, Centipede) are also 'flower' tiles.
:)
"Cofa Tsui" <I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com> wrote in message
news:IKx0g.28075$7a.15428@pd7tw1no...
ithinc
Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, Plum, Orchid, Chrysanthemum, Bamboo are
all called Flowers.
tsloper
up to 33, as listed in FAQ 2b. If you know more about NanJing style,
I'd love to hear it. Like how many tiles are used in the game, how many
in the hand, and briefly what type of scoring and payment are used.
And of course the usual order of flowers and seasons was already given
in FAQ 7e.
Cheers,
Tom
ithinc
Flowers. Nanjing Style scoring units are flowers(similar to points) and
doubles(not for hands, but for special ways of going out). Nanjing
Style allows payments to the winner only. Each loser pays the winner in
case the winning tile is self-drawn, while if the winning tile is
claimed from another player's discard, the discarder alone pays the
winner just for himself. There're also some "Bao" rules. Besides,
there're some immediate bonuses and immediate penalties for all players
in the playing.
Nanjing Style uses a Dead Wall of 8 frusta(excluding a half frusta),
that is to say, there must be 16 or 17 tiles left when a set ends.
In Nanjing Style, claimed chows are not allowed. You can declare a
concealed or promoted Kong immediately after making a pung.
I'll post the detail rules sometime later.
tsloper
Wonderful, thanks!
So a "frusta" is a stack. What language is "frusta"?
Do the players hold 13 tiles, winning on 14? Or do they hold 16,
winning on 17?
ithinc
Chinese-English dictionary.
13/14 of course, so do the most variants in China Mainland.
Tom Sloper
Tom Sloper
> Aha, what I said frusta is a plural of frustum. I found it with my
> Chinese-English dictionary.
Interesting. I looked up that word on Merriam-Webster and found that it
means:
"the basal part of a solid cone or pyramid formed by cutting off the top by
a plane parallel to the base; also : the part of a solid intersected between
two usually parallel planes." So I wonder why your Chinese-English
dictionary gives that as equivalent to "stack of two things."
> 13/14 of course, so do the most variants in China Mainland.
OK, thanks!
Tom
ithinc
Tom Sloper wrote:
>
> Interesting. I looked up that word on Merriam-Webster and found that it
> means:
> "the basal part of a solid cone or pyramid formed by cutting off the top by
> a plane parallel to the base; also : the part of a solid intersected between
> two usually parallel planes." So I wonder why your Chinese-English
> dictionary gives that as equivalent to "stack of two things."
>
Dun tiles. Dun here means two or more tiles of a column, while Dun's
original meaning is a block of wood or stone which has two parallel
planes and on which we can sit.
ithinc
Dun. Dun's original meaning is mound.
John (Zi Rong) Low
said "Mei qiang you 18 dui chang" (Each wall is 18 stacks long).
msta...@aol.com
Hello. Apologies for the late posting but I have been out of the
country (UK) for over a month and hence no access to my computer.
In the posting above, I notice there is no season for orchid. I think
there is also a confusion in MJ discussions about the term 'flowers'.
In my view this term is a category term and is not to be confused with
the particular symbols on the tiles in question.
Plum(blossom), orchid, bamboo and chrysanthemum are NOT four flowers.
According to Eberhard's 'A Dictionary of Chinese Symbols', "In
paintings of plants, the conventional grouping of the 'Four Noble
(plants)' - plum-blossom, chrysanthemum, orchid and bamboo - plays a
big part." Note, the odering is irrelevant. This group represent plants
and NOT specifically flowers.
When it comes to flowers however, Eberhard has this to say; "In
pictures, we find the peony along with the lotus, the plum-tree, and
the chrysanthemum: together, they represent the four seasons, the peony
being the flower of spring."
This is also confirmed in Williams "Outlines of Chinese Symbolism and
Art Motifs". Thus: " The following have been selected to represent the
four seasons: the tree-peony for spring; the lotus for summer; the
chrysanthemum for autumn; and the prunus (wild plum) for winter."
Williams also has this warning, "The flower (lotus) is so often highly
conventionalized that it frequently looks more like a peony, or some
other flower." I have often been very confused when trying to identify
the types of flowers on tiles, because of their highly stylised forms.
Further, the chinese character for a season will appear on the same
tile with a flower. When the types of flowers or plants on the four
season tiles are put together they will usually spell out some proverb
or may represent some principle. For example, if you can positively
identify a lotus blossom on a tile, see if it also has a leaf and a bud
with it. If so, this grouping on one tile represents 'complete union',
usually in connection with love or marriage.
Michael Stanwick
ithinc
msta...@aol.com wrote:
> ithinc wrote:
> > Hi Cofa,
> >
> > The "春夏秋冬"(Spring Summer Autumn Winter) and "梅兰竹菊"(Plum
> > Orchid Bamboo Chrysanthemum) or sometimes "梅兰菊竹"(Plum Orchid
> > Chrysanthemum Bamboo) are idioms in Chinese, while when linked we often
> > say "春兰"(Spring Plum),"夏竹"(Summer Bamboo),"秋菊"(Autumn
> > Chrysanthemum),"冬梅"(Winter Plum) for their flowering or growing
> > season. But in mahjong domain, it seems "Plum Orchid Chrysanthemum
> > Bamboo" order is more often used. I don't know why and it's also a
> > question in my mind all the time.
>
> Hello. Apologies for the late posting but I have been out of the
> country (UK) for over a month and hence no access to my computer.
>
> In the posting above, I notice there is no season for orchid. I think
> there is also a confusion in MJ discussions about the term 'flowers'.
> In my view this term is a category term and is not to be confused with
> the particular symbols on the tiles in question.
Sorry, I had made a mistake. Spring should correspond to Orchid, not
Plum.
msta...@aol.com
> when linked we often
> say (Spring Orchid), (Summer Bamboo), (Autumn
> Chrysanthemum), (Winter Plum) for their flowering or growing
> season.
I think this is interesting. There appear to be two forms of 'flowers'
linked to the four seasons. Firstly, we have the four flowers/four
seasons links directly above which reflect the flowers' flowering or
growing season. Secondly, we have those mentioned in both Eberhard and
Williams, namely: (Spring/Peony), (Summer/Lotus),
(Autumn/Chrysanthemum), (Winter/Plum). According to the authors, each
of these has been selected to represent the respective season.
Am I correct about these two forms? And are the first links above only
to be found within Mah Jong circles or are they found more widely in
Chinese culture? And in the second links, what is the reason for the
flowers representing the seasons?
Cheers
Michael Stanwick
msta...@aol.com
msta...@aol.com wrote:
> ithinc wrote (text amended)
>
> > when linked we often
> > say (Spring Orchid), (Summer Bamboo), (Autumn
> > Chrysanthemum), (Winter Plum) for their flowering or growing
> > season.
> we have those mentioned in both Eberhard and
> Williams, namely: (Spring/Peony), (Summer/Lotus),
> (Autumn/Chrysanthemum), (Winter/Plum). According to the authors, each
> of these has been selected to represent the respective season.
Unfortunately, in all the references to 'Plum, Orchid, Bamboo and
Chrysanthemum' in books and on the web, I cannot find the combinations
of
Spring/Orchid
Summer/Bamboo
Autumn/Chrysanthemum
Winter/Plum
However, what I have turned up every time is what I referred to in my
earlier post:
"In paintings of plants, the conventional grouping of the 'Four Noble
(plants)' - plum-blossom, chrysanthemum, orchid and bamboo - plays a
big part." (Eberhard)
At http://home.flash.net/~cameron/calligraphy/wuzhongqi/wuzhongqi.htm
we have a very good illustration of this point:
"The "four gentlemen" refers to the four noble plants and flowers that
embody the ideals of the literati spirit: 菊 (chrysanthemum), 竹
(bamboo), 蘭 (orchid), and 梅 (plum blossom).
The chrysanthemum is a symbol of the scholar and recluse, who is
generally depicted as a noble and dignified person living an unworldly
way of life devoted to music, poetry, calligraphy and painting.
The bamboo also symbolizes the scholar-gentleman because of its
properties: flexible yet sturdy and evergreen. It is also a symbol of
longevity and courage in adversity because it does not break even in a
strong wind. And since its leaves cast a welcome shade, it also
symbolizes benevolence.
The orchid, whose natural habitat is secluded woodlands, remote valleys
and hidden rock crevices, symbolizes the Confucian and/or Taoist
scholar living in rural seclusion. It is also symbolizes virtue and
purity.
The plum tree blossoms in winter and heralds the return of spring, life
and hope after the end of the cycle of birth, growth and decay. It
therefore symbolizes strength, fortitude and venerable old age and is
associated with poetry and learning."
Here we have a connection - the Scholar - between the Four Noble
'Plants' and another alternative group of 'Flowers' tiles, the Four
Callings, that is; the Woodcutter, the Fisherman, the Farmer and the
Scholar. The Scholar is also directly linked to yet another alternative
group of 'Flowers' tiles - the Four Arts of the Scholar - that is, the
Lute, the Chess-board, the Book and the Painting.
It seems to me that all these groups have the Scholar as a common
denominator.
The only link I could find between a group of 'Flowers' and the
'Seasons' tiles is reflected in the combinations
Spring/Peony
Summer/Lotus
Autumn/Chrysanthemum
Winter/Plum
These are different to the combinations mentioned in previous posts
from other posters. Does anyone have any references to support those
other combinations?
Cheers
Michael Stanwick