2007 IF Art Show Judges
Doe
with just five judges this year.
Anyway, I think I have lined up an excellent judging panel for you for
the 2007 IF Art Show, and I don't want to wait any longer to announce
it.
Ta-da!
--------------------------
Judging Panel - Eric Eve, Jon Ingold, Mike Roberts, Jacqueline Lott,
Adam J. Thornton
Eric Eve: The Elysium Engima -- 3rd Place Annual Comp 2006; TADS Tour
Guide
Jon Ingold: All Roads -- 1st place Annual Comp 2001; Till Death Makes
a Monkfish Out of Me (w/Mike Sousa) -- 2nd place Annual Comp 2002; My
Angel
Mike Roberts: T3, TADS, HtmlTADS; The Plant -- 3rd place Annual Comp
1998; Perdition's Flames
Jacqueline Lott: The Fire Tower -- Best of IF Art Show 2004; Intro
Comp
Adam J. Thornton: Sins Against Mimesis; Stiffy Makane: The
Undiscovered Country; In the End II
----------------------
Big thanks to all the above who agreed to participate as judges.
Reminder, the deadline is Friday May 19th.
The rules can be found at http://members.aol.com/iffyart/
I will post another reminder later.
Doe (aka Marnie) :-)
Bert Byfield
> with just five judges this year.
> Anyway, I think I have lined up an excellent judging panel for you
> for the 2007 IF Art Show, and I don't want to wait any longer to
> announce it. Ta-da!
> Lott, Adam J. Thornton
So just how objective *are* interactive fiction contests? Sometimes I
wonder if it is like a county art contest I entered an oil painting in,
years ago. The prize went to the senior bureaucrat, with the snapshots
of his dog winning over the contributions of some serious artists. I
didn't care that much myself, but the serious artists were enraged. I
never did enter a government contest again, though. Why bother?
For example: Are all IF contests won by insider members of the IF
MUD?
Andrew Plotkin
>
> So just how objective *are* interactive fiction contests?
Entirely subjective. How objective is any other artistic competition?
> Sometimes I
> wonder if it is like a county art contest I entered an oil painting in,
> years ago. The prize went to the senior bureaucrat, with the snapshots
> of his dog winning over the contributions of some serious artists. I
> didn't care that much myself, but the serious artists were enraged. I
> never did enter a government contest again, though. Why bother?
I don't think any two major IF competitions are judged the same way,
so you're going to have to pick your target. Juried selection,
popularity contest from standing start, popularity contest after
months of discussion? Also look at the size of the voting populations,
and where they come from. (Neither the MUD nor the newsgroup is going
to influence ADRIFT or AIF competitions much -- they're different
communities.)
> For example: Are all IF contests won by insider members of the IF
> MUD?
Unlikely, considering how little MUD discussion is about IF.
But this would be easy to research -- log into the MUD regularly and
look at the "who" logs to sample people's activity rate. Ask if you
need help mapping MUD handles to game bylines.
Once you have a correlation, then of course you have to start picking
apart the causation.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
You don't become a tyranny by committing torture. If you plan for torture,
argue in favor of torture, set up legal justifications for torturing
someday, then the moral rot has *already* set in.
Jacek Pudlo
> In rec.arts.int-fiction, Bert Byfield <BertB...@nospam.not> wrote:
>>
>> So just how objective *are* interactive fiction contests?
>
> Entirely subjective. How objective is any other artistic competition?
Artistic competitions in the Real World usually aspire to at least a
semblence of objectivity. The Oscars are awarded by a panel of 6,000+ people
who are usually veterans of the film industry. The Pulitzer prizes are
recommended by juries consisting of experts in the field and awarded by the
Pulitzer board.
Interactive fiction contests are unusual in three ways. 1) You can vote off
the street, which today means anywhere from Tasmania to Lappland. No
credentials for judges are required. 2) You can vote for all games on a
scale from one to ten, which means that you can vote down games you don't
like. 3) The minuscule size of the IF community means that even if all
interested parties vote, there will never be more than 200 ballots, the
implication being that the outcome can be easily rigged. I like 1). I don't
like 2) and 3). I think you and Short and company are responsible for 3).
Jim Aikin
"Andrew Plotkin" <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message
news:evkfqg$rc3$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In rec.arts.int-fiction, Bert Byfield <BertB...@nospam.not> wrote:
> But this would be easy to research -- log into the MUD regularly and
> look at the "who" logs to sample people's activity rate. Ask if you
> need help mapping MUD handles to game bylines.
You know, I tried that a few months ago. Couldn't make heads or tails of
it -- it's all a MUDdle to me.
Nor, to be honest, could I see any point in sorting through the muddle. I
mean, I already have plenty of activities. Why would I want to learn yet
another software tool in order to exchange idle chat with strangers online?
--JA
Andrew Plotkin
I don't know why you would. Bert Byfield might because he's curious
about how ifMUD culture interacts with the greater IF world and the
IFComp in particular.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't shipped you to Syria for interrogation, it's
for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're innocent.
Jacek Pudlo
What you call "idle chat" is an important part of Andrew's life. One day
you'll hurt their fragile feelings and they'll have no other choice than to
accuse you of being a child pornographer.
Aaron A. Reed
the past have often included some of the most interesting and
worthwhile experiments in the IF community. I'm really looking to
playing this year's batch.
Bert Byfield
>> muddle. I mean, I already have plenty of activities. Why would I
>> want to learn yet another software tool in order to exchange idle
>> chat with strangers online?
> I don't know why you would. Bert Byfield might because he's
> curious about how ifMUD culture interacts with the greater IF
> world and the IFComp in particular. --Z
I did some time in there. I even wrote my own program in VB6 to do the
MUD interface. But I'm not ever going back. That's why I asked the
question in here.
Doe
=========
Thanks.
To respond to an earlier post -- as to judges, I give them some brief
guidelines. And the sixth judge I am looking for is a "newbie" because
I like to balance my panel out. As to insiders winning the IF Art
Show, definitely not. It has mainly been won by newbies (or people who
had not written games/entries before). Not always, but mainly.
Galatea, written by Emily Short, won when SHE was a newbie (her first
released work, I think). Jacqueline Lott's entry I think is still her
only completed IF work to date (if not, sorry Jacq :-)).
In fact, the whole point of the IF Art Show is to shake up conventions
and try new things. And hopefully it does. I think it has in the past
and I think it will continue to do so. The aim is to explore the
interactivity side of IF rather than just the fiction side. Read the
rules.
And the point of a judging panel is it is a small show and I don't
have the energy or ability or desire to tally up a lot of votes or
even work at drumming up interest in open voting. So I assemble a
judging panel so that entries will be GUARANTEED of some critiques,
some feeback. I always have felt that what attracts anyone to any show
or contest is the feedback more than anything.
I write critiques, although I don't vote except in case of a tie. But
my critiques are not the best, so I need help from others so the
entrants get their effort's worth. :-)
http://members.aol.com/iffart/
Sure been a long time since I was accused of being "an insider"
anywhere. LOL. I've always been a non-conformist and never run with
the pack. And, heck, I haven't really been on r*gf for about the last
three years.
Later, Doe ;-)
Arnel Legaspi
Not to mention that it's been quite a while since we've had another IF
Art Show, but I guess I'm belaboring the obvious. =)
In any case, it's cool to see it running again, along with Doe.
Wonder what surprises await us. Good luck to all the entrants!
--Arnel
Adam Thornton
Yes. Because it's all the Cabal's fault, and we've kidnapped your dog.
Ask someone who runs it when the last time I logged into the IF MUD was.
You want my judging slot? If Doe doesn't mind, you can have it. Free
of charge. Knock yourself out.
Adam
Bert Byfield
>>Sometimes I wonder if it is like a county art contest I entered an
>>oil painting in, years ago. The prize went to the senior
>>bureaucrat, with the snapshots of his dog winning over the
>>contributions of some serious artists. I didn't care that much
>>myself, but the serious artists were enraged. I never did enter a
>>government contest again, though. Why bother?
>> For example: Are all IF contests won by insider members of the
>> IF MUD?
> Yes. Because it's all the Cabal's fault, and we've kidnapped your
> dog.
> Ask someone who runs it when the last time I logged into the IF
> MUD was.
> You want my judging slot? If Doe doesn't mind, you can have it.
> Free of charge. Knock yourself out. Adam
So just to question the objectivity gets this sort of result... Do you
suppose your hostility and sarcasm convince me that the contests are
objective?
Andrew Plotkin
>
> > Yes. Because it's all the Cabal's fault, and we've kidnapped your
> > dog.
> > Ask someone who runs it when the last time I logged into the IF
> > MUD was.
> > You want my judging slot? If Doe doesn't mind, you can have it.
> > Free of charge. Knock yourself out. Adam
>
> So just to question the objectivity gets this sort of result... Do you
> suppose your hostility and sarcasm convince me that the contests are
> objective?
Adam Thornton is a sarcastic sort of guy, but he isn't being hostile
here. He doesn't make idle offers, either.
(According to MUD records, the last time he logged in was June 2005.
So whether you believe him or not, he's not a regular.)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't thrown you in military prison without trial,
it's for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're an American.
Adam Thornton
I'm perfectly serious. If Doe will agree, you are welcome to judge in
my place. Then the criteria will be what you make them.
Adam
Doe
> In article <Xns9910EE6CAA0D8caravelabooks2006...@66.250.146.128>,
Sorry, bud, you don't get out of it that easily, you old lazy
bones. :-)
Adam is an extremely busy guy and he has very nicely agreed to judge
despite his hectic schedule.
If anyone doesn't like my panel of judges blame it on the fact I
haven't been around much for three years (I was taking care of my Mom
who had dementia and died last June), and I chose people I "know." I
don't know about 80-90% of the posters to r*gf now -- those who are
"new" in the last three years. I also choose people who I know can
write good critiques and/or who will vote fairly. People that offer a
wide variety of viewpoints. One of the viewpoints is Adam's, a tad
sarcastic, a tad impatient, and a very good programmer and a serious
IF player. More serious a player than many -- he has played games a
long time, know games, he examines games well, and he has one of the
smartest minds I know. So the voice/tone of the judges I have picked
runs the gamut and that is exactly what I was looking for.
However, I *am* looking for an Inform newbie to balance out the panel
of judges (I feel TADs is well represented), so I will put out an open
call for one to volunteer as a judge. I tried to contact two and have
heard nothing back. (Newbie to me means new in the last two years.)
If you are interested please contact me at doea...@aol.com. I have
one requirement, that you have released a game, either through a
contest or just in general. Length of game doesn't matter. But I do
want proven IF writers, even with a newbie, so the entrants can
respect the votes and critiques they are given. Know that the judges
know how much work goes into writing and finishing a game/entry.
Because it isn't just about writing, everyone has WIPS, it's also
about finishing.
Sheesh, the IF Art Show is just supposed to be fun and a way to
promote trying something new, a different perspective on IF, and give
people a venue for doing both. I think it is all those things, if you
don't, then simple, don't enter.
As far as a cabal goes, I was never invited to join. And if I am lying
and once was a card carrying member, I turned it in long ago. I have
visited the if-mud extremely rarely the last two to three years, for
instance. However, Adam and I have been friends for many years. The
rest of the judges I have known either slightly or more than slightly
for a long time.
The thing is I am an IF old timer, I just haven't been around. I
joined r*if in approximately 1994-1996. Somewhere in there. Any
problem I see here, is that those new in the last three years may be
wondering who the heck I am. Well, I am an old lady, and once got into
a lot of hot headed discussions on r*if, but I have given those up in
my old age. :-) I don't have the energy or inclination for that
anymore. And once upon a time I felt that I had a brilliant idea and I
wanted people to approach IF differently so I came up with a contest,
because the best way to promote the idea seemed to be a contest. Refer
to my Iffy Theory -- http://members.aol.com/doepage/theory.html
So I am no cabalite (but they better return my dog. Which would be
nice since I've never had a dog).
In other words, IT IS ALL OPEN, ANYONE CAN WIN, ALL ENTRIES WILL BE
TAKEN SERIOUSLY (OR NOT IF THEY ARE FUNNY). Nothing is rigged and it
is an opportunity to strut your stuff.
Well, it's late and I am a bit irritated. Not terminally irritated,
just a bit. You don't want to see me when I am terminally
irritated. ;-)
I hope some people enter and have fun with it. I am trying to do a
good thing here, not a hurtful thing. It really is exactly as it
seems.
I've recieved one entry already, early. Way to go. Hope quite a few
more roll in.
Later, Doe :-)
David Whyld
Welcome to RAIF ;/
Doe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. ;-)
I mean really. Look under the archives for doeadeer3 and also
femaledeer.
Open call for one more judge, newbie last two years, Informer
preferred.
This, I must admit, even if a tad irritating, has also been somewhat
amusing. Me part of "the cabal." It may just give me a big head.
LOL.
Doe
Adam Thornton
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>In rec.games.int-fiction, Bert Byfield <BertB...@nospam.not> wrote:
>> > Yes. Because it's all the Cabal's fault, and we've kidnapped your
>> > dog.
>> > Ask someone who runs it when the last time I logged into the IF
>> > MUD was.
>> > You want my judging slot? If Doe doesn't mind, you can have it.
>> > Free of charge. Knock yourself out. Adam
>> So just to question the objectivity gets this sort of result... Do you
>> suppose your hostility and sarcasm convince me that the contests are
>> objective?
>Adam Thornton is a sarcastic sort of guy, but he isn't being hostile
>here. He doesn't make idle offers, either.
It concerns me that it is apparently not clear to all when I am, and am
not, being hostile. I will address the questions of sarcasm, and,
indeed, whether I am ever un-sarcastic, at some future date, if ever.
Nevertheless, I felt it my duty to provide a sample so that in future my
responses can be graded according to their hostility.
Therefore, for Bert's (and any not-uninterested bystanders')
edification, here's what a hostile response might have looked like:
===BEGIN HOSTILE RESPONSE===
Hey, assface. Guess what Doe gets in recompense for hosting her Art
Show. Give you three guesses.
Yeah, that's right. "Nothing." Not a sausage. Jack shit.
Guess what the judges receive. This one should be easier. Yep, the
correct answer is "jack shit" there too.
So I'm not too sure what you think the Horrible IF Cabal has to *gain*
from spending their time hosting and judging an art show.
But maybe that's not it. Maybe you're just angry that the outcome is a
predetermined conclusion, that IF MUD regulars are going to win, no
matter what's entered.
Did you *EVEN BOTHER TO GO TO THE SITE AND LOOK AT THE PREVIOUS
CONTESTS' WINNERS*, you fuckstick? Apparently not, or you would have
noticed the following:
[ A note, dropping out of my rant for a moment: my apologies if I cite
your work and then don't recognize your name as a member of the Evil
Stifling IF Cabal. I'm really not very on top of who's produced what,
especially not for the last few years. So if I say "who is this?" and
the answer is "She's written six games in the last three years, has an
IF newsletter, a web site, and won three XYZZYs and 2d place in an IF
Comp," well, I'm sorry, it's just my ignorance, and not a deliberate
slight. If Baf's Guide is indeed kept up to date, then I think I'm
OK. ]
Spring 1999 -- Best of Show -- "Crystal Ball (Still Life)" by Marian
Taylor. Who dat? I note that Gunther Schmidl, who *has* stayed active
in the IF world, and might be part of the Cabal, didn't win anything.
Summer 1999 -- Best of Show -- "Statue" by David Clysdale. Anyone know who
this guy is? Is he part of the Cabal? I mean, I've been shirking my
Cabalistic duties and I haven't actually logged on to the MUD since 2005
(thanks, Zarf, for finding that), and I haven't been a regular since
probably 2002, but once a Cabalist always a Cabalist, as they say.
2000 -- now you have a point. "Galatea" and Kathleen Fischer's "The
Cove" were both winners, and they're both pretty active in the IF
world. Emily is unquestionably a Core Cabalist, and Kathleen wrote a
number of well-regarded works. We'll see her again in 2003. The third
winner was Ian Ball. Is he in the Cabal? Dunno. Only three games; the
one I remember was the flawed but very interesting Madame L'Estrange
(1997). Does not seem like the best choice for logrolling to me.
Gunther Schmidl was once again denied this year.
2001 -- Our winners include J.D. Berry, which is a name I at least
recognize and may fit your definition of an IFMUD crony. He's done a
number of games, anyway, one of which was a finalist for several
XYZZYs. On the other hand, Guilherme Holt De Sousa was apparently a
one-hit wonder, which is too bad because I remember "Memories" being an
interesting piece.
2003 -- Katlheen Fischer, Jessica Knoch, and Joe Mason. Well, at least
this time they're all authors whose names I know and who have written
other things. So much for solidarity among Cabalists, though, because
I've been rather unkind to Joe Mason's _In The End_. On the other hand,
Mike Sousa got shut out this year, and it's easy to argue that of the
four of 'em, his name is the biggest. I don't know that that argument
would win, but it certainly could be made.
2004 -- Jacqueline Lott, Dave Malaguti, Yoon Ha Lee. Of these three,
Jacqueline Lott and Yoon Ha Lee *might* be part of your nefarious
conspiracy; Malaguti is--so far--another one-hit wonder. Oddly, though,
taking home *only* an honorable mention is a collaboration including
Eric Eve and Steve Breslin. Maybe this got voted down because the Cabal
is Zarfistas, Shorttites and Nelsonians with a hate-on against Breslin
and against TADS 3. Yeah. That's the ticket. That must also be why
Mike Roberts and Eric Eve are on this year's panel. What cunning
misdirection!
So, what can we see here: well, the same people are often multiple-time
winners, and they often end up being judges. This must be proof
positive of a CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE LITTLE GUY because it couldn't
*POSSIBLY* be that the people who actually *GIVE A SHIT* about the IFFY
Art Show are the people who submit things to it time and again, and
because Doe figures that, having been through it a couple times, they
probably care enough to take their judging responsibilities seriously.
And, again, it must be CONSPIRACY that some of these people have
reputations in the IF world, because there's no way that *WRITING A LOT
OF IF MAKES YOU A BETTER IF WRITER*. There's certainly no way that
people who have *SUNK A HELL OF A LOT OF TIME* into writing IF (or
library extensions, or, fuck, ENTIRE GODDAMN IF DEVELOPMENT SYSTEMS)
might both have *BUILT REPUTATIONS FOR THEMSELVES* and also *BE THE KIND
OF PEOPLE INTERESTED IN DOING A JURIED SHOW FOR IF*.
You know, even if the Cabal really *IS* Graham Nelson, Emily Short, and
Andrew Plotkin, holed up in a mahogany-panelled drawing room somewhere,
chortling as they sip port and plot the fate of the IF world, at least
they and their minions have HAD THE GOOD FUCKING GRACE to RELEASE A
BUNCH OF GAMES AND TOOLS that give the peons SOMETHING TO PLAY AROUND
WITH.
Let me get to the crux of the matter here, Bert:
It's real, real FUCKING EASY to stand on the sidelines there, and bitch
and moan about how snapshots of the organizer's wife's dog are going to
win. So: what interactive fiction have you ever written? How have you
been involved in any way with the IF world?
If you got something to say, *WHIP IT OUT, BITCH*.
I don't give a flying rat's ass with a moose cock stuck through it
whether or not you submit it to the IF Art Show. If you want to put it
up on your own web page--or, better yet, release it to the IF Archive
and tell us all albout it here, that'd be great. But I would like to
know what IF you've ever written, and why I should pay any attention at
all to your pusillanimous bleating. I don't find you in Baf's Guide.
I disagree with most of what Steve Breslin writes. But I at least will
admit that he is a PRACTITIONER OF THE CRAFT (I didn't think Walcot Keep
was playable, but it was an interesting idea and an experiment that was
worth doing) and therefore has earned some respect from me as someone
who at least isn't JUST TALKING OUT OF HIS ASS. Same with David Whyld:
I don't think ADRIFT is all that, *or* indeed a bag of chips, and I
think Web Forums, when compared to Usenet, for discussion, blow
syphilitic fainting goats. But the man has at least written some games,
been enthusiastic in his promotion of Interactive Fiction, and earned
the right to his opinions, even if they are frequently ass-brained.
YOU, Bert Byfield: WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU EVER DONE FOR INTERACTIVE
FICTION? Maybe instead of showing up and whining about how unfair a
contest that you might, or might not ever want to enter is, you should
RELEASE A GAME. Usually when we see this sort of rectocranial inversion
it's coming from people who show up and tell us we should be using C or
Java or Python or Ruby or some other general-purpose language to write
IF rather than purpose-built languages. It always comes from people who
haven't ever actually released anything IF related. Then we invite
them--yes, usually with some skepticism-- to show us their
general-purpose-language IF Development Solution, and we never hear from
them again. It gets old, and if you won't forgive us our crankiness,
then you can blow us, individually and as a group.
To summarize: hosting and judging the Art Show are both a lot of work,
for no reward whatsoever. So, for that matter, is *writing* a game for
the Art Show. You appear willing to do no more work than standing on
the sidelines and carpng. Therefore: Bert Byfield, you can suck my
balls.
===END HOSTILE RESPONSE===
...now, aren't you glad that you didn't receive a hostile response?
Adam
Bert Byfield
>>>> your dog.
>>>> Ask someone who runs it when the last time I logged into the
>>>> IF MUD was.
>>>> You want my judging slot? If Doe doesn't mind, you can have
>>>> it. Free of charge. Knock yourself out. Adam
>>> So just to question the objectivity gets this sort of result...
>>> Do you suppose your hostility and sarcasm convince me that the
>>> contests are objective?
>>Adam Thornton is a sarcastic sort of guy, but he isn't being
>>hostile here. He doesn't make idle offers, either.
> It concerns me that it is apparently not clear to all when I am,
> and am not, being hostile. I will address the questions of
> sarcasm, and, indeed, whether I am ever un-sarcastic, at some
> future date, if ever. Nevertheless, I felt it my duty to provide a
> sample so that in future my responses can be graded according to
> their hostility.
> Therefore, for Bert's (and any not-uninterested bystanders')
> edification, here's what a hostile response might have looked
> like:
Might have? You mean you are not really going to write in hostility?
> ===BEGIN HOSTILE RESPONSE===
Never mind.
> Hey, assface. Guess what Doe gets in recompense for hosting her
> Art Show. Give you three guesses.
Listen, dick-breath, I asked a question. If you think that gives you
the right to act like Jacek, you are wrong.
> Yeah, that's right. "Nothing." Not a sausage. Jack shit.
Before her post, I had no idea that she existed. Her post was very
interesting and I bookmarked a couple of her websites to study in
depth.
> Guess what the judges receive. This one should be easier. Yep,
> the correct answer is "jack shit" there too.
I didn't even know about these judges. I thought there was only the
annual IF COMP. Doe appears to do something different.
> So I'm not too sure what you think the Horrible IF Cabal has to
> *gain* from spending their time hosting and judging an art show.
I asked a question. You seem to have some idea of that, but it seems
you can't answer the question without wigging out.
> But maybe that's not it. Maybe you're just angry that the outcome
> is a predetermined conclusion, that IF MUD regulars are going to
> win, no matter what's entered.
But I'm not angry. I asked a question. Apparently it is a question that
cannot be asked, which is peculiar.
> Did you *EVEN BOTHER TO GO TO THE SITE AND LOOK AT THE PREVIOUS
> CONTESTS' WINNERS*, you fuckstick? Apparently not, or you would
> have noticed the following:
No, I didn't do a whole research program, pencil-dick. I asked a
question. That's what I thought this place was for, butt-breath.
> [ A note, dropping out of my rant for a moment: my apologies if I
> cite
> your work and then don't recognize your name as a member of the
> Evil Stifling IF Cabal.
Now you are accusing me of being a member of the cabal? You resemble
Jacek more and more as you rave on. Are you done yet?
> I'm really not very on top of who's
> produced what, especially not for the last few years. So if I
> say "who is this?" and the answer is "She's written six games in
> the last three years, has an IF newsletter, a web site, and won
> three XYZZYs and 2d place in an IF Comp," well, I'm sorry, it's
> just my ignorance, and not a deliberate slight. If Baf's Guide
> is indeed kept up to date, then I think I'm OK. ]
I don't think you are okay. I think you are a hysterical twit.
> Spring 1999 -- Best of Show -- "Crystal Ball (Still Life)" by
> Marian Taylor. Who dat? I note that Gunther Schmidl, who *has*
> stayed active in the IF world, and might be part of the Cabal,
> didn't win anything.
I guess you are attempting to answer my question in some roundabout
crude way. Credit for that.
> Summer 1999 -- Best of Show -- "Statue" by David Clysdale. Anyone
> know who this guy is? Is he part of the Cabal? I mean, I've been
> shirking my Cabalistic duties and I haven't actually logged on to
> the MUD since 2005 (thanks, Zarf, for finding that), and I haven't
> been a regular since probably 2002, but once a Cabalist always a
> Cabalist, as they say.
"When you throw a stone into a pack of curs, the one who is hit yelps."
> 2000 -- now you have a point. "Galatea" and Kathleen Fischer's
> "The Cove" were both winners, and they're both pretty active in
> the IF world. Emily is unquestionably a Core Cabalist, and
> Kathleen wrote a number of well-regarded works. We'll see her
> again in 2003. The third winner was Ian Ball. Is he in the
> Cabal? Dunno. Only three games; the one I remember was the
> flawed but very interesting Madame L'Estrange (1997). Does not
> seem like the best choice for logrolling to me. Gunther Schmidl
> was once again denied this year.
You do go on.
> 2001 -- Our winners include J.D. Berry, which is a name I at least
> recognize and may fit your definition of an IFMUD crony. He's
> done a number of games, anyway, one of which was a finalist for
> several XYZZYs. On the other hand, Guilherme Holt De Sousa was
> apparently a one-hit wonder, which is too bad because I remember
> "Memories" being an interesting piece.
If only you had written all this in the mode of a nice guy, instead of
a lout...
> 2003 -- Katlheen Fischer, Jessica Knoch, and Joe Mason. Well, at
> least this time they're all authors whose names I know and who
> have written other things. So much for solidarity among
> Cabalists, though, because I've been rather unkind to Joe Mason's
> _In The End_. On the other hand, Mike Sousa got shut out this
> year, and it's easy to argue that of the four of 'em, his name is
> the biggest. I don't know that that argument would win, but it
> certainly could be made.
Okay.
> 2004 -- Jacqueline Lott, Dave Malaguti, Yoon Ha Lee. Of these
> three, Jacqueline Lott and Yoon Ha Lee *might* be part of your
> nefarious conspiracy; Malaguti is--so far--another one-hit wonder.
MY conspiracy? Because I dared to ask? I see.
> Oddly, though, taking home *only* an honorable mention is a
> collaboration including Eric Eve and Steve Breslin. Maybe this
> got voted down because the Cabal is Zarfistas, Shorttites and
> Nelsonians with a hate-on against Breslin and against TADS 3.
> Yeah. That's the ticket. That must also be why Mike Roberts and
> Eric Eve are on this year's panel. What cunning misdirection!
I guess you think this crap is cute. It isn't. It makes you look rather
shabby, in fact.
> So, what can we see here: well, the same people are often
> multiple-time winners, and they often end up being judges. This
> must be proof positive of a CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE LITTLE GUY
> because it couldn't *POSSIBLY* be that the people who actually
> *GIVE A SHIT* about the IFFY Art Show are the people who submit
> things to it time and again, and because Doe figures that, having
> been through it a couple times, they probably care enough to take
> their judging responsibilities seriously.
How sad that you couldn't have just said all this without the
crudity...
> And, again, it must be CONSPIRACY that some of these people have
> reputations in the IF world, because there's no way that *WRITING
> A LOT OF IF MAKES YOU A BETTER IF WRITER*. There's certainly no
> way that people who have *SUNK A HELL OF A LOT OF TIME* into
> writing IF (or library extensions, or, fuck, ENTIRE GODDAMN IF
> DEVELOPMENT SYSTEMS) might both have *BUILT REPUTATIONS FOR
> THEMSELVES* and also *BE THE KIND OF PEOPLE INTERESTED IN DOING A
> JURIED SHOW FOR IF*.
There is a point you know -- or perhaps you don't -- where saracams
drifts into stupidity. You are way past that point.
> You know, even if the Cabal really *IS* Graham Nelson, Emily
> Short, and Andrew Plotkin, holed up in a mahogany-panelled drawing
> room somewhere, chortling as they sip port and plot the fate of
> the IF world, at least they and their minions have HAD THE GOOD
> FUCKING GRACE to RELEASE A BUNCH OF GAMES AND TOOLS that give the
> peons SOMETHING TO PLAY AROUND WITH.
For sure.
> Let me get to the crux of the matter here, Bert:
Oh, personal is it, Adam?
> It's real, real FUCKING EASY to stand on the sidelines there, and
> bitch and moan about how snapshots of the organizer's wife's dog
> are going to win. So: what interactive fiction have you ever
> written? How have you been involved in any way with the IF world?
There are fixed games in the world, kid. I asked if this was one of
them. Your hysterical response has some information in it, but the
level of rage is so high that one must ask why?
> If you got something to say, *WHIP IT OUT, BITCH*.
Be so kind as to go screw yourself.
> I don't give a flying rat's ass with a moose cock stuck through it
This appears clever to you?
> whether or not you submit it to the IF Art Show. If you want to
> put it up on your own web page--or, better yet, release it to the
> IF Archive and tell us all albout it here, that'd be great. But I
> would like to know what IF you've ever written, and why I should
> pay any attention at all to your pusillanimous bleating. I don't
> find you in Baf's Guide.
I've dabbled with a few things, but have no finished work. I never said
I did. I have wondered while dabbling away if this was a good thing to
do with my time. I wondered if the contests were insider affairs, like
the art show I described. So I asked. And what do I get? Some mental
patient screaming in hysteria about moose cocks...
> I disagree with most of what Steve Breslin writes. But I at least
> will admit that he is a PRACTITIONER OF THE CRAFT (I didn't think
> Walcot Keep was playable, but it was an interesting idea and an
> experiment that was worth doing) and therefore has earned some
> respect from me as someone who at least isn't JUST TALKING OUT OF
> HIS ASS. Same with David Whyld: I don't think ADRIFT is all that,
> *or* indeed a bag of chips, and I think Web Forums, when compared
> to Usenet, for discussion, blow syphilitic fainting goats. But
> the man has at least written some games, been enthusiastic in his
> promotion of Interactive Fiction, and earned the right to his
> opinions, even if they are frequently ass-brained.
More of what Adam Thornton thinks is wit...
> YOU, Bert Byfield: WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU EVER DONE FOR
> INTERACTIVE FICTION?
Precious little. So? All I did was ask a question. Are you going to do
a Jacek on me for years, now?
> Maybe instead of showing up and whining
A question is not a whine. Are questions not permitted? Are questions
offensive to you? Do you expect new people to be humbly silent at all
times?
> about how unfair a contest that you might, or might not ever want
> to enter is, you should RELEASE A GAME. Usually when we see this
> sort of rectocranial inversion it's coming from people who show up
Golly, you own a dictionary.
> and tell us we should be using C or Java or Python or Ruby or some
> other general-purpose language to write IF rather than
> purpose-built languages. It always comes from people who haven't
> ever actually released anything IF related. Then we invite
> them--yes, usually with some skepticism-- to show us their
> general-purpose-language IF Development Solution, and we never
> hear from them again. It gets old, and if you won't forgive us
> our crankiness, then you can blow us, individually and as a group.
Now invitations to perversion. You are way beyond anal.
> To summarize: hosting and judging the Art Show are both a lot of
> work, for no reward whatsoever. So, for that matter, is *writing*
> a game for the Art Show. You appear willing to do no more work
> than standing on the sidelines and carpng. Therefore: Bert
> Byfield, you can suck my balls.
More invitations to perversion. You are really a sick fellow. Well,
this has been fun, and I will miss your posts for their (few) lucid
moments, but overall you are too gross to not plonk.
> ===END HOSTILE RESPONSE===
Why do I doubt that?
> ...now, aren't you glad that you didn't receive a hostile
> response? Adam
More of what you think is wit. But no, I think all that was a reaction
to stepping on a sore toe. All that raving makes me think you are a
braying ass, not clever.
Eric
the "gamasutra" thread? Emily's a long-timer here as well. If you'll notice,
no one will probably criticize Adam for a post like this. (Maybe they
shouldn't. I don't know.) Just as no one will criticize Emily and at least
recognize that she did go a little over the top, which is what Adam did
here. I don't have anything published in IF either. I haven't released a
game. So I might get a rant for just saying what I said. But if you hang
around long enough, you'll notice that the long-timers (who some people
think 'enlarged the community') pretty much act as they want. That's not
bad. That's not good. It's just what it is. RAIF is an insular community. It
can't be much else. I don't say that as criticism of it. It's just a fact.
Other communities, that are niche-based due to relatively small membership,
are the same way. But what I've found is it means the long-timers tend to
act this way. Look at the forum boards for other game genres and you'll see
pretty much the same stuff. Insular communities are like inbred families in
some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
Adam Thornton
Bert Byfield <BertB...@nospam.not> wrote:
>Now invitations to perversion. You are way beyond anal.
I should hope so. Anal is merely the *beginning* in Stiffy Makane: The
Undiscovered Country. You shouldn't play it. Of course, you won't see
this, as I in your killfile, but fair warning to any other folks as
delicate as Mr. Byfield--certain of my games, notably, anything with
"Stiffy Makane" in the title--will be upsetting to your sensibilities,
and are best avoided.
>but overall you are too gross to not plonk.
I say! When did we get such delicate little flowers in raif?
Adam
Adam Thornton
>Insular communities are like inbred families in
>some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
That's just because none of the other regulars will stand near gamma ray
sources and have sex with me, though.
Adam
Jacek Pudlo
You're funny when you're drunk.
Jeff Nyman
> pretty much the same stuff. Insular communities are like inbred families in
> some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
And therein lies the pity, I would think. If you're going to have an
inbred community, you may as well have the sex and the mutations.
What's the point otherwise?
Don't mind me.
I'm just hostile (no, wait, make that sarcastic) because no one wants
to discuss Nick Montfort's ideas about narrative variation. I honestly
can't believe this is the tripe that's taking away from my no doubt
incredibly well-formed opinions and salient viewpoints in another
thread.
- Jeff
P.S. This was a joke. I'm just joking.
P.P.S. Yes, like many politicians, I suck at jokes. And joking.
P.P.P.S. I have to admit, a comp based on the theme of "a flying rat's
ass with a moose cock stuck through it" does have a certain appeal. I
guess it's a good thing I'm participating in an inbred community where
that appeal probably won't seem strange.
Magnus Olsson
I've been known to stand near gamma ray source - but as for the other
part, well, you gotta draw the line *somewhere*.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se)
PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol
Doe
> "Adam Thornton"
>
> > In article <g-adnUYH19UVoLzbnZ2dnUVZ_ualn...@comcast.com>, Eric <-> wrote:
> >>Insular communities are like inbred families in
> >>some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
>
> > That's just because none of the other regulars will stand near gamma ray
> > sources and have sex with me, though.
>
> You're funny when you're drunk.
On Apr 14, 2:08 pm, "Jacek Pudlo" <j...@jacek.jacek> wrote:
> "Adam Thornton"
>
> > In article <g-adnUYH19UVoLzbnZ2dnUVZ_ualn...@comcast.com>, Eric <-> wrote:
> >>Insular communities are like inbred families in
> >>some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
>
> > That's just because none of the other regulars will stand near gamma ray
> > sources and have sex with me, though.
>
> You're funny when you're drunk.
On Apr 14, 2:08 pm, "Jacek Pudlo" <j...@jacek.jacek> wrote:
> "Adam Thornton"
>
> > In article <g-adnUYH19UVoLzbnZ2dnUVZ_ualn...@comcast.com>, Eric <-> wrote:
> >>Insular communities are like inbred families in
> >>some ways, but without the sex and mutations.
>
> > That's just because none of the other regulars will stand near gamma ray
> > sources and have sex with me, though.
>
> You're funny when you're drunk.
Yes, for sure, but also a bit long winded. ;-)
I feel I have successfully explained the IF Art Show to anyone in this
thread. As stated, Emily was a brand new newbie when she entered and
won the IF Art Show. And others, it may have been their first
completed work of IF. Many who entered something in the IF Art Show
and never seemed to produced anything again. But, then, it is geared
toward IF pieces, not games per se.
When I first proposed the idea it went over like a lead ballon and was
also a bit controversial. Initially no one liked it at all, that
includes the "cabal" and who I felt was the head of the IF community
at the time. (I later figured out it was essentially headless.) Which
is why I have found some of this stuff pretty amusing overall despite
its irritation. I have always percieved myself as a real IF outsider.
Certainly that is the way it has always felt.
The best way to understand the concept is read "The Concept Behind IF
Art" and "IF as Text Sculpture Quotes" at the gallery. http://members.aol.com/iffyart
Disclaimer -- Adam's opinion is not representative of the organizer of
the IF Art Show (uh, that would be me), any of its judges (well,
judges other than himself), any of its affiliates (uh, none), its
holding corporation (uh, again none), past entrants, the IF Mud (a
vastly overrated place to visit and I have never gotten the monkey
jokes), the IF world in general, The Spring Thing, the Annual IF Comp,
SPAG, XYZZY, The Intro Comp (just trying to cover all bases, sorry, I
am sure I left someone out), right, The Brass Lantern, Mike Roberts,
Graham Nelson, raif and rgif back to their original formation (I think
I am beginning to cover everyone and everything), any political party
and any government. Well, I haven't covered beanie babies, penguins in
the Antarctic, etc. but I also have to drawn the line somewhere.
I am quite capable of expressing my own opinions and doing my own
rants. :-) However, in this case I want people to enter and have fun
with it, so no rant is necessary.
Bert, I thought of offering you the sixth judge spot but couldn't find
out if you had ever released any IF. The answer seemed to be no. And
that is one of my requirements for a judge. I also got a volunteer.
But I did seriously consider you. However, I think it would be better
if you entered. Truthfully, I am always more hard pressed for entries
than for judges. :-)
And, personally, I am very glad I don't have to have sex with iffers.
Have you seen photos of some of these guys? LOL.
Doe :-) Note Adam may continue to express his opinion, he's that kind
of guy, but please don't confuse his with mine.
Bert Byfield
> this thread. As stated, Emily was a brand new newbie when she
> entered and won the IF Art Show. And others, it may have been
> their first completed work of IF. Many who entered something in
> the IF Art Show and never seemed to produced anything again. But,
> then, it is geared toward IF pieces, not games per se.
You have successfuly explained a world of useful information. You have
answered the question I originally asked, rather than get mad at me for
asking it.
> When I first proposed the idea it went over like a lead ballon and
> was also a bit controversial. Initially no one liked it at all,
> that includes the "cabal" and who I felt was the head of the IF
> community at the time. (I later figured out it was essentially
> headless.) Which is why I have found some of this stuff pretty
> amusing overall despite its irritation. I have always percieved
> myself as a real IF outsider. Certainly that is the way it has
> always felt.
So apparently outsiders are not pilloried beyond endurance.
> The best way to understand the concept is read "The Concept Behind
> IF Art" and "IF as Text Sculpture Quotes" at the gallery.
> http://members.aol.com/iffyart
Bookmarked it.
> Disclaimer -- Adam's opinion is not representative of the
> organizer of the IF Art Show (uh, that would be me), any of its
> judges (well, judges other than himself), any of its affiliates
> (uh, none), its holding corporation (uh, again none), past
> entrants, the IF Mud (a vastly overrated place to visit and I have
> never gotten the monkey jokes), the IF world in general, The
> Spring Thing, the Annual IF Comp, SPAG, XYZZY, The Intro Comp
> (just trying to cover all bases, sorry, I am sure I left someone
> out), right, The Brass Lantern, Mike Roberts, Graham Nelson, raif
> and rgif back to their original formation (I think I am beginning
> to cover everyone and everything), any political party and any
> government. Well, I haven't covered beanie babies, penguins in the
> Antarctic, etc. but I also have to drawn the line somewhere.
That's an answer to precisely the question I was only thinking. I don't
mind a loose cannon here and there, but I wondered if I was facing the
Spanish Armada.
> I am quite capable of expressing my own opinions and doing my own
> rants. :-) However, in this case I want people to enter and have
> fun with it, so no rant is necessary.
Fun, yes. That's what has appealed to me about IF from the start.
> Bert, I thought of offering you the sixth judge spot but couldn't
> find out if you had ever released any IF. The answer seemed to be
> no.
The answer is no. I've had a work in progress for a while, but it
started in TADS2 and then I went inactive for a year or two, then
converted it to Inform6 and then to TADS3 and currently to Hugo. I was
starting to think I could finish it this year when I decided to ask
after whether or not the contest(s) were a worthwhile effort.
> And that is one of my requirements for a judge. I also got a
> volunteer. But I did seriously consider you. However, I think it
> would be better if you entered. Truthfully, I am always more hard
> pressed for entries than for judges. :-)
I would serve if drafted, but I would seriously prefer to enter than
to judge, anyway. ;-)
> And, personally, I am very glad I don't have to have sex with
> iffers. Have you seen photos of some of these guys? LOL.
> Doe :-) Note Adam may continue to express his opinion, he's that
> kind of guy, but please don't confuse his with mine.
Duly noted. Thank you very much. You have restored my faith in IF.
Bert Byfield
James Cunningham
Search me! Is Mr Pudlo bringing the 12-year-olds, or shall I?
Best,
James
Doe
wrote:
> On 2007-04-14 16:59:59 -0400, a...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <Xns9912A7A4FE741caravelabooks2006...@66.250.146.128>,
> > Bert Byfield <BertByfi...@nospam.not> wrote:
> >> Now invitations to perversion. You are way beyond anal.
>
> > I should hope so. Anal is merely the *beginning* in Stiffy Makane: The
> > Undiscovered Country. You shouldn't play it. Of course, you won't see
> > this, as I in your killfile, but fair warning to any other folks as
> > delicate as Mr. Byfield--certain of my games, notably, anything with
> > "Stiffy Makane" in the title--will be upsetting to your sensibilities,
> > and are best avoided.
>
> >> but overall you are too gross to not plonk.
>
> > I say! When did we get such delicate little flowers in raif?
>
> > Adam
>
> Search me! Is Mr Pudlo bringing the 12-year-olds, or shall I?
>
> Best,
===========
Is that supposed to be funny? If so I don't get it. Pedophilia I find
very unfunny overall.
Even though I enjoy humor and even raunchy humor sometimes.
I guess I have missed a lot not being around raif.
Maybe some of it totally worth missing. Now the gamma ray sources,
that was funny.
I guess I don't get it. I would appreciate it if people took some of
this stuff into another thread. I am trying to encourage people to
enter the IF Art Show. Not turn them off.
Thanks in advance, Doe :-)
Adam Thornton
Jacek Pudlo <ja...@jacek.jacek> wrote:
>"Adam Thornton"
>You're funny when you're drunk.
Thanks.
Adam
Doe
> In article <LpbUh.38506$E02.15...@newsb.telia.net>,
>
> Jacek Pudlo <j...@jacek.jacek> wrote:
> >"Adam Thornton"
> >You're funny when you're drunk.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Adam
In speaking up for you as a judge I did say you had one of the
smartest minds I have known.
I didn't, however, say it was a clean mind. LOL.
I want to add something here, that may or may not help. Not sure I
should, but I will. This is addressed to Bert and others.
Adam and I have been good friends for about 11-10 years.
Although I am a LOT older than him, sometimes he is protective of me
like a big brother. And, well, sometimes way back when in raif, I
sometimes stirred up controversy and/or got involved in some heated
debates. So I have been in the center of some stuff in the past.
But I haven't posted to raif in a long time, so he may have forgotten
that I really can take care of myself here. Most of the time.
So, really, what he did was rush to my defense. Which I generally
appreciate, but feel was not as necessary as maybe he did. OTOH, I
think some other things have gone on in raif lately, that may have
made him feel it WAS necessary. In other words, take it context.
HTH, Later, Doe ;-)
Blank
Well, I'm just selfishly glad he jumped in - Chairman Evil Stifling as a
Zarfistan counter-insurgent! I'm still chortling. Thanks Adam.
jz
Doe
> Zarfistan counter-insurgent! I'm still chortling. Thanks Adam.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't see what's funny about the truth.
Doe ;-)
Adam Thornton
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Oh, wow. I just realized something.
I already have a room in my game called "Limbo", in the "Metaphysics"
region. Mostly because I needed an offstage location that really *was*
a location (rather than nowhere, or "not a room").
I really ought to put...well, something like this...for people reading
the source or playing the debugging build.
The truth is a thing in Limbo. Instead of doing anything with the
truth, say "You can't handle the truth!"
Adam