Malinche insults entire IF community
ati...@yahoo.ca
"It's time to set the record straight....again.
Once again I am here to clean up the mess you "drive by" critics
leave behind. I will never yield to your mountains of lies, deceit and
evil manipulations no matter how much vitriol you spew forth.
So you may as well quit now and go away.
God knows that I never will.
The people have spoken. The sad truth is that you all just don't
want to listen to what they have been saying over the past several
years.
Many people tried all the free games out there and quickly turned their
back on them.
Those same people end up buying Malinche games.
I write games that people enjoy. Titles that entertain and tantalize.
I write what sells. Every good author does.
It's a sad to see the failings of the free community in producing
games people just don't like.
The amateur movement and Malinche are two distant, yet similar, tribes.
We both do whatever we can to further the interactive fiction movement.
The difference is that Malinche publishes adventure games people
actually enjoy.
The collective failure of the amateur movement to deliver games that
entertain the world is responsible for Malinche's existance.
Before I forget --- thank you.
That's why Malinche has moved over 150,000 copies of our games since
we started.
Statistically, my games with distribution of 150,000+ dwarfs the
collective efforts of the entire amateur movement.
Malinche's staff numbers less than 10. The estimated population of
the amateur community at large is shy of 500.
In terms of manpower the amateur movemnt has 50 TIMES the resources of
Malinche.
Yet Malinche's performance in delivering enjoyable advenutre games is
unequalled.
Now I'll drive the point home even more-Malinche's customer
database on any ONE of the titles we sell is far larger than the entire
population of the entire amateur/free movement.
Do you critics still feel powerful over there hiding behind your
keyboards?
You poor cretins bang the same tired drum and mouth the same inacurrate
information time and time again. Unlike the lot of you I will elaborate
and substantiate.
I never "hide" the fact I use Inform. Or the Onyx Ring libraries.
Or anything else. Evidence of this is all over the Malinche website,
in every game I've written and it has been this year since
Malinche's humble origins.
I am only too glad to give credit where credit is due to all the hard
working people that keep the engines of interactive fiction humming
along.
In fact-the license agreements of both Inform and the Onyx Ring
libraries REQUIRE that me and Malinche to give full credit.
And we do. So your complaint is summarily dismissed for being
unfounded, inaccurate and just plain false.
God bless Graham Nelson. All hail Jim Fisher.
There. Even more credit. Which those two men so rightly deserve.
Inform 6 and the OnyxRing libraries are right up there along side fire
as among the major breakthroughs that have served humanity.
The printing press, the computer and the iPod get honorable mention.
Ok, while I'm in a generous mood I'll include cell phones too. And
toaster ovens.
And, oh yes, air conditioning. And elevators. And airplanes. And,
OK, alochol.
But Inform and OnyxRing is first in my eyes. I'd rather walk a
flight of stairs or eat untoasted bread or drive to California than do
without Inform 6 or the OnyxRing libraries.
Conspiracy theory nuts won't find any black helicopters hovering over
the Malinche offices or "Men in Black" hanging out in our reception
area. We never have and never will cover up the truth.
Back to the quality of my work ---
If my games really and truly didn't stand up to the free games out
there then how can it be that Malinche even exists now-almost four
years after we started?
Further-Why would Malinche offer a 60 day money back guarantee on
every game we sell? NOBODY in the industry has ANY kind of return
policy. I back up every game I write with a TWO MONTH unconditional
satisfaction guarantee.
Try and return a game you didn't like to any software
retailer-online or offline. They'll laugh at the attempt.
In a nutshell-Malinche would be bankrupt if the adventure games I
write were nothing less than astonishing.
We're making more money than ever because the entire Malinche team
works tirelessly-full tilt-to deliver the very best adventure games
on the planet.
I can back that up with even more proof. I can prove every point I
make while you poor souls have nothing but your empty, meaningless
words to carry you.
Visit the Malinche website and see what people have said about the free
games out there.
In some cases the free games of the amateur community INSPIRED them to
purchase Malinche's interactive fiction and experience the difference
that quality, professional interactive fiction delivers.
While you're there you can plainly see what the world is saying about
Malinche's interactive fiction.
Critics can read the dozens of testimonials and weep.
True adventure game fans will be overjoyed.
The spirit of Infocom lives on-with Malinche.
And, yes, I am the last of my kind. I am the only Implementor still
standing.
Peter Nepstead's 1893 is a single title he wrote three or so years
ago. There is no second title or any announcement of one. For lack of
evidence he is retired.
Future Coffee's futureboy, now two years old, has no sequel or any
other second title planned or announced. Ditto retired.
They're gone. They are has beens. All done. "Done cooking" as
we chefs say.
I have seven titles out and two more scheduled for release in December
2006.
By the evidence of the facts I am the last Implementor still active
upon the earth.
I know facts are alien things to the IF critics out there but, alas,
I'll wield the facts and strike down the deceptions every time.
And I shall not tire. I will not waver. I will persevere and continue
to create to the betterment of the literate world.
Signed,
Grandmaster Howard Sherman
The Last Implementor
Malinche Entertainment "
Chephren
Hieronymo's mad againe.
David Whyld
Chephren wrote:
> > Signed,
> >
> > Grandmaster Howard Sherman
"Grandmaster"? Delusions of grandeur mixed with insanity and terrible
game writing skills.
I almost feel sorry for the poor bastard.
Paul E Collins
> [quoting Howard Sherman]
> It's a sad to see the failings of the free community
> in producing games people just don't like.
That doesn't help his claim to be "the world's last active Implementor
of Interactive Fiction"!
Eq.
aph...@altavista.com
the country in well established firms run their entire business's with
2-3 line sentencing. Malinche's spat comes off sounding like a wired
up, frustrated mailboy.
AP
Jimmy Maher
>
> That's why Malinche has moved over 150,000 copies of our games since
> we started.
This is the claim that always gobsmacks me. I mean, how can Mr. Sherman
possibly think that anyone will believe this? It doesn't stand up to
even the most cursory scrutiny.
Let's be generous and say that people like Malinche's games so much that
each customer on average has bought 3. That means 50,000 customers.
Now, the games are not available in stores, only online. That means
50,000 customers Internet-savvy enough to seek out and purchase a
relatively obscure item like a commercial text adventure.
All of this leads to a simple question: Where the hell are these people?
When 50,000 Internet-savvy people buy something, they inevitably find
somewhere online to congregate and discuss it. Text adventures are even
more prone to this behavior than most things. After all, players will
want to swap hints, distribute walkthroughs, etc. Yet not a single
person that I can recall has ever come here having discovered modern IF
through Malinche. Okay, we are of course insufferably full of ourselves
and pretentious and our work is crap, and any right-thinking Malinche
fan will justifiably avoid us. But... where DO these people go? If 500
people have created such an active little community as ours, shouldn't
50,000 have a community of their own, many times our size? Shouldn't a
search for "interactive fiction" on any search engine drop one into the
midst of said community, leaving our silly little efforts as
afterthoughts buried pages deep in the search results?
I occasionally visit Malinche's website as a sort of guilty pleasure,
just to see what new heights of self-aggrandizement Mr. Sherman has
reached. For a couple of years or more, there actually was a forum.
Seeking answers to questions like the ones I ask in the previous
paragraph, I almost always made this my first stop. There was NO ONE
THERE. Just one or two posts under each category, virtually all from
Howard, and no more than a dozen or so posts totals in a time span of at
least two years. Again... 50,000 people are Malinche customers, and no
one wants to talk about it in the most logical and accessible place of
all? The forum has disappeared of late, of course. Few things can
demonstrate the success or failure of an Internet business or website
like a visit to its forum can, after all.
I have actually come up with a theory about what is going on with
Malinche. Mr. Sherman is affiliated with a line of packing and shipping
stores in the northeast. I haven't stalked him or anything. This is
conveyed through anecdotes on Malinche's own website, and a visit to the
website of the business in question at least at one time had his name
and picture in plain view. I think that Mr. Sherman has done quite well
for himself through this business, whether through luck, smart
investment, inheritance, or good old hard work I cannot say. Now, some
men when they reach a certain age and have achieved a certain prosperity
try to capture their childhood or adolescent dreams, whether they
involve a sports car or a hot blonde, or both, or neither. Mr. Sherman,
I think, always wanted to be an implementer for Infocom, and now has the
resources to achieve that dream (after a fashion). As mid-life crises
go, it's a fairly harmless one, and his wife probably is not terribly
concerned about his "hobby" when she considers the possible
alternatives. And so Mr. Sherman writes his games and gives interviews
to anyone who will listen to him, and hopscotches around the country
attending game conventions as the "president" and "implementer" for
"Malinche Entertainment." ("Fewer than 10 employees" means "one" in
this context, of course.) Needless to say, the "business" makes no
money whatsoever, and the average Comp game probably gets played by many
more people than the average Malinche game... but Mr. Sherman is living
his dream. If he wasn't always spewing so much bile and making himself
so unpleasant, I might find the whole story touching, perhaps even
worthy of a warm but melancholy short story.
The real tragedy here is that Mr. Sherman possesses in spades three of
the five elements I would judge necessary for a real commercial IF
venture: industry and real commitment (whatever else you can say of him,
Mr. Sherman is not lazy); sound financial backing; and a willingness to
promote aggressively and even creatively. He unfortunately lacks skill
as an IF author and, even more painfully, lacks honesty and integrity.
It's a pity, really. The former failing would be irrelevant if our
would-be entrepreneur was willing to hire real talent. The latter,
though, is of course insurmountable. I wonder what might have happened
if Mr. Sherman had approached the community in a spirit of cooperation,
if he had contracted established authors to write games of Malinche's
length and ambition but of the best of our community's technical and
literary quality, and if he had then promoted them with the same passion
he puts into Malinche today.
--
Jimmy Maher
Editor, SPAG Magazine -- http://www.sparkynet.com/spag
Thank you for helping to keep text adventures alive!
Poster
> ati...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>
>> That's why Malinche has moved over 150,000 copies of our games since
>> we started.
>
> This is the claim that always gobsmacks me. I mean, how can Mr. Sherman
> possibly think that anyone will believe this? It doesn't stand up to
> even the most cursory scrutiny.
>
> Let's be generous and say that people like Malinche's games so much that
> each customer on average has bought 3. That means 50,000 customers.
> Now, the games are not available in stores, only online. That means
> 50,000 customers Internet-savvy enough to seek out and purchase a
> relatively obscure item like a commercial text adventure.
>
[Major snippage]
Yeah, you pretty much said it all. The forum point is painfully obvious.
If you write an IF game and provide a forum, usually people will come.
If he has seven games and closed the forums down through lack of
participation, he simply cannot have sold as many as he claims.
If Malinche is as successful as he claims, why is he even bothering to
attack other commercial IF authors? Why trifle with what he thinks are
minor league authors? It's almost as if for Malinche to succeed, others
must fail.
Without doubt, people who make those types of arguments do not hail from
a position of strength or security.
-- Poster
www.intaligo.com Building, INFORM, Seasons (upcoming!)
John
>a position of strength or security.
>
>-- Poster
>
>www.intaligo.com Building, INFORM, Seasons (upcoming!)
Or reality.
atitdut
> All of this leads to a simple question: Where the hell are these people?
> When 50,000 Internet-savvy people buy something, they inevitably find
> somewhere online to congregate and discuss it. Text adventures are even
> more prone to this behavior than most things. After all, players will
> want to swap hints, distribute walkthroughs, etc. Yet not a single
> person that I can recall has ever come here having discovered modern IF
> through Malinche. Okay, we are of course insufferably full of ourselves
> and pretentious and our work is crap, and any right-thinking Malinche
> fan will justifiably avoid us. But... where DO these people go? If 500
> people have created such an active little community as ours, shouldn't
> 50,000 have a community of their own, many times our size? Shouldn't a
> search for "interactive fiction" on any search engine drop one into the
> midst of said community, leaving our silly little efforts as
> afterthoughts buried pages deep in the search results?
There is a Malinche group located here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/malinchegames/
And *those* numbers are telling; less than 80 members after 3 years and
not even a dozen posts over the last 8 months!
Where are the 50,000 - 150,000 customers who get a membership to this
board once they buy a Malinche game?
There appears to be a LOT of great fiction at Malinche, just not in
it's games.
Kevin
ChicagoDave
> Taken from the ACG comments section from his article:
>
> "It's time to set the record straight....again.
>
Let the man be. There is no benefit in throwing stones.
The only way to dispell his rhetoric is to do something about it.
Talking about it does nothing but make Malinche seem properly
indignant.
David C.
Kevin Forchione
news:1156095037....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps the IF community can throw him a bone by telling him about the
productivity gains he'll get by switching to I7.
--Kevin
James Jolley
Hi Kevin,
I tried just that. I asked him outright if he intended to use I7 and he
seemed completely uninterested in the idea, prefering to stick with I6.
Each to there own, but his parser would be a lot better, his own parsers
are weak.
--
All the best
-James-
----== Posted via Newsgroups.com - Usenet Access to over 100,000 Newsgroups ==----
Get Anonymous, Uncensored, Access to West and East Coast Server Farms at!
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Adam Thornton
Chephren <kabusho_mus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hieronymo's mad againe.
Watch out. He'll fit you.
Adam
28 IF
>Taken from the ACG comments section from his article:
>
>"It's time to set the record straight....again.
[snip]
Howard Sherman blowing smoke out of his ass? *yawn*... What else is new?
Hey, I got an idea! Maybe he could team up and write a game with DEREK SMART!
It'd be an instant million-seller!
Giles
I don't get it - it's not like anyone even mentioned him recently. Did
I miss a memo and a bunch of you left flaming copies of his games on
his lawn? Or does he just need enemies in order to be triumphant
against them in his head, so he whips up a frothy blend of vitriol in
his lunchhour every so often?
signwriter
> Did I miss a memo and a bunch of you left flaming copies of his games on
> his lawn?
The true sinister purpose of the Cabal, finally revealed.
Giles
Oh - right - I hadn't seen the AGC thread in rec.games.i-f. Well, if
someone comes across that screed I suspect they won't be immediately
dashing off to buy any malinche software. I wouldn't trust him with
telephone number, let alone a credit card.
John Bruce
Pardon the newbie's offtopic question, but what is ACG?
Gayla
Sympodius
interested for about 6 months now. I managed to get hold of the old
Infocom games then started looking for others. I was, admittedly,
shocked to discover a huge community of users writing new IF. So I
downloaded and started playing those games, found out about the ifMUD,
these newsgroups, the yearly competitions, the news websites... I have
gotten a lot of pleasure out of the fact that there is such a solid
community behind IF, and it makes me feel that it is worth my time to
be interested in it (since I will have others with whom to talk about
these things).
However, and I am being completely honest here, today is the first I've
even heard of Malinche games. If it was really that big, why haven't I
been able to find it off my own bat? I mean, I've had to search pretty
thoroughly to find everything that I have so far.
Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
Sympodius
Diogo Osorio
Sympodius escreveu:
> However, and I am being completely honest here, today is the first I've
> even heard of Malinche games. If it was really that big, why haven't I
> been able to find it off my own bat? I mean, I've had to search pretty
> thoroughly to find everything that I have so far.
I, much like Sympodius, have been around for eight or nine months now
since I discovered IF. Since then I've been playing IF and I've
searched the internet for newsgroups, forums, sites, etc, and this is
the first time that I've heard of Malinche. Isn't this strange? If he
is such a bestselling author I should have heard of him before.
>From what I read here he is a former Infocom author? Who is this guy?
Where does he come from? Couldn't be a 15 year old poseur? For he does
sound like one, a 15 year old I mean.
Diogo Osorio
Bjarni Juliusson
this fellow. But he seems to have accomplished his task to some extent
judging from the length of this thread. It's interesting for a troll to
get such benign and composed responses perhaps.
Bjarni
--
INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE
Mark Tilford
>
> And *those* numbers are telling; less than 80 members after 3 years and
> not even a dozen posts over the last 8 months!
>
> Where are the 50,000 - 150,000 customers who get a membership to this
> board once they buy a Malinche game?
>
> There appears to be a LOT of great fiction at Malinche, just not in
> it's games.
>
> Kevin
>
The Malinche news page claims
According to statistics released by Nielsen Bookscan, the foremost authority on
fiction and non fiction book sales across all mediums, three of Malinche's four
interactive fiction titles outperformed 90% of all books published in 2005 in
terms of sales figures.
...outselling over 1,000,000 titles that were published last year.
While looking for confirmation on that point, I happened to see the article
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/opinion/28oreilly.html?ex=1156305600&en=a5464625ab3406bb&ei=5070
AUTHORS struggle, mostly in vain, against their fated obscurity. According to
Nielsen Bookscan, which tracks sales from major booksellers, only 2 percent of
the 1.2 million unique titles sold in 2004 had sales of more than 5,000 copies.
While the two numbers are a year apart, I doubt there would be too much churn
between years; 150,000 sales between four titles should put the three good
sellers far higher than "top 10%".
aph...@altavista.com
> >From what I read here he is a former Infocom author? Who is this guy?
> Where does he come from? Couldn't be a 15 year old poseur? For he does
> sound like one, a 15 year old I mean.
>
I sooo glad you chose 15, cause 12 year olds have been getting the bum
rap for quite some time.
Quintin Stone
> From what I read here he is a former Infocom author?
Emphatically, no. He was never an Infocom author. His "title" as
Implementor is entirely fictitious.
==--- --=--=-- ---==
Quintin Stone "You speak of necessary evil? One of those necessities
st...@rps.net is that if innocents must suffer, the guilty must suffer
www.rps.net more." - Mackenzie Calhoun, "Once Burned" by Peter David
Sprite
IF for a few years and, again, first time this Malinche chappy has come
up. Still. Let him be overlord of his kingdom if he wants, since none
of us can find it!
L. Ross Raszewski
Also, at $20 a pop, Howard's claims mean that he has made several
*million* dollars writing IF. Perhaps someone should mention that to
the IRS.
Jimmy Maher
>
> Also, at $20 a pop, Howard's claims mean that he has made several
> *million* dollars writing IF. Perhaps someone should mention that to
> the IRS.
After my previous post, it was pointed out to me via email that he does
not actually claim to have *sold* 150,000 games, but rather to have
*moved* them. It's an interesting choice of verbs. Thus he may be
counting demo version downloads via download.com and the like as well as
free CDs passed out at conventions, etc., in addition to his (rather
miniscule, I suspect) actual sales. It still seems an awful high number
to me, but perhaps he is being misleading rather than actually dishonest.
Bob
Jimmy Maher wrote:
> Thus he may be
> counting demo version downloads via download.com and the like as well as
> free CDs passed out at conventions, etc., in addition to his (rather
> miniscule, I suspect) actual sales.
Which reminds me of good old Paul Allen Panks who claimed that tens of
thousands of people downloaded his famous "Westfront" game via
download.com. Made me think about the credibility of the numbers
download.com states.
Nevertheless, when I was reintroduced into IF three years ago, Pentari
was one of first games I saw mentioned on rgif. I thought about buying
it, but was discouraged by the demo version. Since then, I bought
Necrotic Drift and Future Boy! and didn't regret it. My next purchase
will probably be 1893.
Bob
thewiltog
Don't worry - he's only Kydding
dwh...@gmail.com
Maybe by "moving 150,000 copies", he simply means that he has 150,000
copies of his games in a big warehouse and simply *moves* them from one
side of the warehouse to the other on a regular basis.
Well... it's certainly more believable than the idea that he actually
managed to sell 150,000 copies.
Raksab
I ran a Google search on "Malinche" and came up with some Aztec lady
who hung around with Cortes. "Slave" and "harlot" were two of the
words that popped up in articles about her.
Then I searched for "Howard Sherman" and went through several websites
that didn't look right... ah! Several entries down, we came to
adventureclassicgaming dot-com. Retro games of all sorts, apparently.
Quote from the "about us" page: <b>Our site is entirely non-commercial
and our staff abides to a strict code of editorial ethics, thus we can
offer the best unbiased information on adventure gaming.</b>
how does one get a copy of these so-wonderful commercial IF games? I'm
a little puzzled (no pun intended).
Personally, I like retro in part because it *is* free. Old games don't
take up much space on new computers, and you can find them easily for
little to no money. (It seems a little strange to me, a 21-year-old
who grew up on DOS and early versions of Windows, that people would
actually pay money for one of those giant B-floppies with a few
kilobytes of data on it... yet nevertheless, people did at one time,
and I can just barely remember back to when they did. Still, those
games are old and you can share most of 'em for free now, and let me
give a great big CHEER to the IF archive and those who maintain it!)
But seriously, as of the late '90s or Y2K, who ever heard of paying
money for IF software? Ok, selling the occasional feelies, fine, but
who expects to really make money from this stuff? The market for
commercial IF is virtually nonexistent now, as a few people here have
probably found. I played a few games that ask for money, but they
weren't really very good even apart from demanding dollars. The best
free IF games are far better than the best "commercial" IF games, and
there's a lot more of the free good ones, so why pay for the commercial
ones?
If you try to charge money for an IF game, almost nobody will play it,
and a game that isn't enjoyed is just a pile of useless hexadecimals.
Art that nobody experiences is like a tree falling in the forest when
nobody's around to witness it. The tree might care, along with maybe a
few squirrels, but nobody else does.
btw, I should say one more thing: a few IF-related projects are so
good, and take so many hours to create/maintain, and are so useful,
that I could see charging money for them (or a "premium" edition of
them) and actually earning something. (In fact, when I first peeked at
the pretty I7 site and saw all the little blurbs about how great it was
and how it had all these amazing features, I expected to see a price
tag somewhere. But I didn't see one.) Still, whatever you got in
dollars for any IF project probably would never be equal to the amount
of work you put into it. And once again, props to the people who do
those things .... for free. Talk about true art, the best kind, simply
for love of the medium (and the everlasting fame and glory, of course
;-).
When you do art for free, you make it accessible to others and also you
inspire others to create more good art. How can that be a bad thing?
IMO the guy is pretty wrong when he says that free IF is worthless. If
it was, we wouldn't all be sitting around talking about it and spending
all this time on it.
oh, one more thing: on this site is an article about "abandonwarez"
which is a bit of an ironic contrast to the smoke blowing at IF
enthusiasts. Check that piece out.
Paul E Collins
> Personally, I like retro in part because it *is* free.
Hmm. In most cases, that's just because it's been abandoned and the
owners either aren't aware of others distributing it or don't care
enough to take action. So, by the same token, the very latest games
are also "free" if you can find pirate copies.
Eq.
Raksab
Well... good point.
Still, I wouldn't steal a game (or a movie, or a book, or music for
that matter) that I knew the publisher was still officially offering
and still charging money for. If I wanted an item that was still
available by its rightful owner, I'd go to the library and borrow it
legally, or I'd pay for a new copy. I meant games that are
"abandoned," which tend to be quite old. Some games are impossible to
get unless you download them, because the original owners have quit
offering it or have gone out of business entirely... or sometimes they
re-release their old things for free as a promotion for something new.
Besides, given long enough, copyrights run out. (Admittedly this takes
a while, and technically most copyrights on games in the last 30 years
are still good. But many of those games have been forgotten and
ignored by their makers, and they live on only with the fans. I say,
better that the fans should play with it than nobody at all.)
RootShell
I have it (and FutureBoy!) and it's very very well packaged, and has
interesting extras in the CD :)
You wont regret it i think :)
(just my two cents)
Regards,
RootShell
Mantar, Feyelno nek dusa
> It's interesting for a troll to get such benign and composed responses
> perhaps.
I think he's looked on less as a troll, and more of a lovable crackpot.
I think it's because he really doesn't come /here/ and say bad things
about people, and so he's more an entertaining figure than threatening.
Like the former Iraqi Information Minister insisting that things were
going just great, and Saddam was totally winning.
Taz
Hmm, I'd like to give some commercial IF a go. If Emily Short ever
wrote any I'd buy it (what ever happened to 'Textfire' anyway?).
I won't buy this dude's games though, just on the principle of the thing.
Quintin Stone
> I think he's looked on less as a troll, and more of a lovable crackpot.
> I think it's because he really doesn't come /here/ and say bad things
> about people, and so he's more an entertaining figure than threatening.
> Like the former Iraqi Information Minister insisting that things were
> going just great, and Saddam was totally winning.
He has on more than one occasion come to R*IF to stir up trouble, though
whether that was due to maliciousness or cluelessness is probably a matter
of perspective. I believe he resents the free IF community because we do
not recognize his greatness: his entry "BOFH" for IF Comp 2002 was savaged
in reviews (it scored 26 out of 38) and the free demos made available for
his commercial games have not met with anything better.
Crackpot, yes. Lovable, no.
ChicagoDave
> But seriously, as of the late '90s or Y2K, who ever heard of paying
> money for IF software? Ok, selling the occasional feelies, fine, but
> who expects to really make money from this stuff? The market for
> commercial IF is virtually nonexistent now, as a few people here have
> probably found. I played a few games that ask for money, but they
> weren't really very good even apart from demanding dollars. The best
> free IF games are far better than the best "commercial" IF games, and
> there's a lot more of the free good ones, so why pay for the commercial
> ones?
My question has always been...
Where is the proof that IF won't sell? I think there's proof that it
actually will sell. Peter Nepstad sold 2000+ copies of 1893 and that's
at the hefty price of $19.95. I'm not sure what his profit margin is,
but all he did was get it into a few places where an historical game
would be noticable. His game was reviewed favorably in major
newspapers.
If you write a game and try to sell it to the IF community, yeah,
you're likely dead in the water after about 50-100 units.
But if you actually marketed your game to the right audience, it's just
like any other product. People will probably buy it.
The trick is to find a market where you can _sustain_ sales. Get repeat
customers.
I'm not convinced that commercial IF is an impossibility.
The only thing you can say for sure is that IF hasn't been a commercial
success because no one has tried to make it so.
Just saying "it's impossible!" or "there is no market!" or "who would
_buy_ it?" isn't proof.
The proof is in someone doing it and either succeeding or failing.
David C.
Default User
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Mantar, Feyelno nek dusa wrote:
>
> > I think he's looked on less as a troll, and more of a lovable
> > crackpot. I think it's because he really doesn't come here and say
> > bad things about people, and so he's more an entertaining figure
> > than threatening. Like the former Iraqi Information Minister
> > insisting that things were going just great, and Saddam was
> > totally winning.
>
> He has on more than one occasion come to R*IF to stir up trouble,
> though whether that was due to maliciousness or cluelessness is
> probably a matter of perspective. I believe he resents the free IF
> community because we do not recognize his greatness: his entry "BOFH"
> for IF Comp 2002 was savaged in reviews (it scored 26 out of 38) and
> the free demos made available for his commercial games have not met
> with anything better.
I think I tried BOFH. As I recall, it didn't work very well. The
interface was so annoying that I never found out if the story was any
good.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Mike Roberts
> My question has always been...
> Where is the proof that IF won't sell? I think there's proof that it
> actually will sell. Peter Nepstad sold 2000+ copies of 1893 and
> that's at the hefty price of $19.95. I'm not sure what his profit
> margin is, but all he did was get it into a few places where an
> historical game would be noticable.
As Peter has himself pointed out, though, 1893's selling point to most of
its buyers has nothing to do with it's IF-ness. The inference to draw from
1893's success seems to be that there's a market for Chicago-history-based
products. Peter has also, in the past, commented that his profit-to-effort
ratio doesn't exactly make it a get-rich-quick scheme, maybe not even a
quit-your-day-job scheme. I think he might either chuckle or get indignant
(probably chuckle; Peter seems like a quite good-natured sort of guy) at
your characterization of "all he did was..."
> But if you actually marketed your game to the right audience, it's
> just like any other product. People will probably buy it.
>
> The proof is in someone doing it and either succeeding or failing.
Not exactly; the proof is in someone doing it and *succeeding*. Failed
attempts prove nothing, otherwise we'd have accumulated enough of them by
now that you wouldn't be saying there's no evidence against commercial
viability: Cascade Mountain, High Energy, Adventions, ifbyphone, Red
Grendel (iirc), Sycamora Tree, at least a couple of others whose names I
can't recall - okay, so none are exactly recent, but I see no reason to
suppose the market's become *more* amenable to text games over time. The
thing is, failures prove nothing for exactly the same reason that Infocom's
demise proves nothing: the failure could be for reasons entirely unrelated
to the market. Howard's efforts don't constitute a reliable data point one
way or the other, sadly, as he's too consumed with his imagined battle with
the community to be interested in a forthright discussion here. Kent seems
to be doing fine with Future Boy, although he's been pretty quiet about the
financial side here, and cagey about whether or not it's a day-job-quitter;
I get the impression it's not, but maybe he's just been too busy keeping
track of all his fabulous Future Boy-derived cash and prizes, or is too much
of a gentleman to gloat, or maybe he's afraid of inviting the competition
:).
It seems high time for someone to make another attempt. If they do, I hope
they'll manage to maintain good relations with the raif community. I know
this group isn't exactly 100% behind the whole idea of new commercial
efforts - in fact, it's rather polarized about it - but there's no reason
anyone here should be antagonistic to a particular author trying it. A
suggestion to the next person who tries: bring the community into your
effort early on, maybe by giving away free review copies to anyone on raif -
post a free-with-coupon offer, say, that expires just before you start your
real marketing push. That would at least assuage fears that you're taking
away from the freeware culture we've come to expect, and at best might
create positive word-of-mouth that would contribute to sales later on. If
there's one thing we're all agreed on, it's that you can't make your fortune
seeling to raifers, so you might as well just give it away to them and count
on your real market base being elsewhere.
--Mike
mjr underscore at hotmail dot com
ChicagoDave
> As Peter has himself pointed out, though, 1893's selling point to most of
> its buyers has nothing to do with it's IF-ness. The inference to draw from
> 1893's success seems to be that there's a market for Chicago-history-based
> products. Peter has also, in the past, commented that his profit-to-effort
> ratio doesn't exactly make it a get-rich-quick scheme, maybe not even a
> quit-your-day-job scheme.
I agree with all of these points except that 1893 did receive strong
reviews from reputable sources. Granted there is still the fact that it
is a history lesson in disguise, but even so, I would argue that if the
content is enjoyable, the form (text) isn't as important as people like
to think it is.
> I think he might either chuckle or get indignant
> (probably chuckle; Peter seems like a quite good-natured sort of guy) at
> your characterization of "all he did was..."
He would laugh. Peter and I have been trying to meet each other for
years, despite living only 35 miles away from each other. This is
entirely my fault of course. I'm not usually allowed out of the house
much less the yard. I blame the wife and kids.
> Not exactly; the proof is in someone doing it and *succeeding*.
I actually was tempted to remove "failed" from my comment. I agree
entirely. People will point to the most recent failed attempts as proof
and I can honestly say that none of them attempted anything remotely
close to a thoughtful and carefully executed business plan. I've seen a
lot of hish-risk leaps into the unknown, but nothing really _planned_.
So success is really the only option.
I agree...it _is_ high time someone tried again. And I believe that
careful interaction with raif is important too. You're not going to get
consensus or even support from everyone, but many people have very
important advice to bring to the table and that would be inherently
idiotic to ignore in any new venture.
David C.
Bjarni Juliusson
Hold it right there! "Former"? Saddam didn't win!?
Richard Bos
No. Al Qaeda did, with a little help from Washington.
Richard, cynic
Bjarni Juliusson
Dang! Well. A minor setback. I'm sure the peacekeeping forces of the UN
will have Washington under control in no time, and with the aid of EU's
election monitors and a few new school houses and volunteer teachers we
will have democracy installed, and the USA will be on the track to
becoming part of the western world!
In the meantime I give my best wishes to those living in the USA, along
with a sincere hope that they might escape persecution by the Abrahamic
fundamentalist regime.
xexagon
> When you do art for free, you make it accessible to others and also you
> inspire others to create more good art. How can that be a bad thing?
I see where you're coming from on this, but I personally don't mind
paying for a copy of Nabokov, a Fall CD or even something as mundane as
a computer game. The Malinche guy is obviously a mentalist, but I don't
see anything wrong with trying to create IF that sells. I'm sure his
games (if the prose on his website is anything to go by) are dreadful,
but surely he's on to something in trying to market his games to a
low/middle-brow audience that's into reading trashy books? His spiel
kind of reminds me of when I worked in advertising with a client who
sold 'Improve Your Memory' books; the ads were cheese, but the guy made
a lot of money. Some of the more tricksy IF (I'm thinking of games
like Photopia and anything by Andrew Plotkin) would surely appeal to a
more 'literate' customer?)
Perhaps IF lacks the confidence to try selling itself? It'd be
interesting to see a really polished, professional product - not just
in terms of the parser and game logic, but in the packaging (a
double-clickable EXE wrapped in something like Gargoyle would look
pretty good), and the instructions. But I guess hundreds of authors
have considered this before.
David Whyld
xexagon wrote:
>
> Perhaps IF lacks the confidence to try selling itself? It'd be
> interesting to see a really polished, professional product - not just
> in terms of the parser and game logic, but in the packaging (a
> double-clickable EXE wrapped in something like Gargoyle would look
> pretty good), and the instructions. But I guess hundreds of authors
> have considered this before.
Lots have considered it before, but few have actually gone ahead and
tried it.
Which is probably why it has never succeeded.
John W. Kennedy
> The Malinche guy is obviously a mentalist, but I don't
> see anything wrong with trying to create IF that sells.
The problem is that his extra-sensory hardware is in conflict with the
standards set by the American National Scrying Institute, the
International Swami Organization and the World Wide Wizards Consortium.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
aph...@altavista.com
found a niche for selling. As much imagination that runs rampant here,
what other niches are out there left untapped?
Peter has proven you can mix fiction with historical events and sell to
the historical savvy. I would think a geniune Civil War game could
make money. Or a Titanic game to people who have a fascination on
sunken ships.
But I think Peter got lucky to an extent..I think he was passionate
about the Fair, then put 2 and 2 together and worked hard to make some
money. Whereas if you go into it to make money, I don't think the
chances are in your favor( at this present time ).
What mind boggles me is the person who did buy 1893, and did not have
any IF background. Like, I just don't see my Mom playing a text
adventure. But after you collect up on 19.99 per game, I mean, at that
point, who cares, right? wrong?
A.P. Hill
aph...@altavista.com
beginning of the game you answer questions like Who is your boss, who
is your coworker, who is your IT guy, etc. Then tell a story with the
personal element.
I think one thing that's missing from IF is a rewarding ending. Right
now it's point driven...a score. It'd be neat if all your moves could
be summarized into a lengthy read. Something like:
Ike awoke from bed and tried desperately to search his closet, but he
forgot to get out of bed. Once out of bed, Ike tore through his
personal belongings for five hours and 32 seconds. After peeling away
his paint and banging around his walls for a secret door, he finally
left through the hallway door with a burning torch.
Go Ike!!
A.P. Hill
Jim Aikin
Interesting thread. (Someday I'll tell y'all a Howard Sherman story, but not
today.)
One of the things that I suspect might make a commercial IF release more
practical would be some form of copy-protection. I hate copy-protection as
much as the next guy, but when the market is small to begin with (meaning
not just r*ifers, but anyone else who can be enticed into trying something
so obtuse as a text-based game), the fact that copies can be freely uploaded
and emailed to friends is not going to help the cash flow.
That's how I first encountered Adventure, back in about 1980 (on a Kaypro).
A friend came over with a floppy and said, "You're gonna love this!" So I
shouldn't be ungrateful about the idea of free sharing. But I've heard
reliable estimates that in the music software field (where I spend a lot of
time), up to 80% of the users of certain popular programs are using kraks --
so I can only imagine what the percentage would be if there were no
protection to begin with.
There's also the issue of licensing. If I write an Inform game (sorry,
Mike -- I've gone back to the dark side), my customers will need to use both
Inform and an interpreter such as Frotz. Both of which are freely
distributed, but ... I'm sure someone who has read the fine print will be
happy to answer the question: Can either Inform or an interpreter be freely
bundled in a product that's offered for sale for profit? Or is a license
required?
On a related topic, I once sat and watched a friend who was NOT familiar
with interactive fiction try playing a game I had written. This was an
enlightening experience, and I recommend it to anyone who is contemplating a
commercial IF release. Those in this community take a lot of command syntax
for granted that is not intuitively obvious to the newcomer, and it would
take a very sophisticated parser indeed to grapple with some of the
perfectly natural phrases my friend entered. This was years ago, and I no
longer remember specifics, but I remember that there was an issue there.
--Jim Aikin
Adam Thornton
<aph...@altavista.com> wrote:
>Which brings up an interesting point. Peter chose a World's Fair and
>found a niche for selling. As much imagination that runs rampant here,
>what other niches are out there left untapped?
[... well, reasoned, articulate, polite post snipped ...]
Who are you, and what have you done with the real A.P. Hill?
Adam
ChicagoDave
The real power of interactive fiction.
David C.
Cooper Stevenson
> Which brings up an interesting point. Peter chose a World's Fair and
> found a niche for selling. As much imagination that runs rampant here,
> what other niches are out there left untapped?
History related...
The Lewis & Clark expedition
Truman's Historical decisions leading to the end of and after WWII
--Could interestingly play this one as Mcarthur :)
The invention of the Telegraph
Watergate
'Niche' related...
An environmentalist in search of alternative energy sources
An oil company Geologist in search of new sources of oil
Other niches (to the core of the question)
Stock Operator (watch the ticker tape, deduce market conditions, etc.)
Detective (of course)
Farmer (crop yields, market prices, etc)
Crab/fishing boat Captain (believe it or not)
Nuclear Power Plant Operator
Oceanographer
CEO
Governor
-Cooper
Hazard Suit
and Spider & Web are for free, what must games be like to make me buy
them?
aph...@altavista.com
out there is. What kinds of places can you think of that have gift
shops.
Six Flags
Civil War battlefields
State Parks
An interactive adventure through yellowstone. You've seen it, now take
it home with you. blah blah blah. The park system buys 100 copies, an
IF author makes money, etc.
Quintin Stone
> There's also the issue of licensing. If I write an Inform game (sorry,
> Mike -- I've gone back to the dark side), my customers will need to use
> both Inform and an interpreter such as Frotz. Both of which are freely
> distributed, but ... I'm sure someone who has read the fine print will
> be happy to answer the question: Can either Inform or an interpreter be
> freely bundled in a product that's offered for sale for profit? Or is a
> license required?
I don't follow: if you wrote a game in Inform, why would someone need
Inform to play it? They should only need the interpreter unless you're
distributing it as source, which is unusual.
Jim Aikin
> Inform to play it? They should only need the interpreter unless you're
> distributing it as source, which is unusual.
I'm sure you're probably right. But as a publishing professional, I've
learned not to take anything for granted where rights are concerned. The
only way to KNOW whether games developed in Inform can be sold for profit is
to look at the license with which Inform is distributed ... which I'm too
lazy/busy to do, so I figured somebody else would be bound to know the
answer.
With respect to the interpreter software, again, we know it's available for
free -- but does the freeware license allow me to charge money for a package
containing a copy without paying the author of the program a royalty? Not a
trivial question.
--Jim Aikin
ChicagoDave
> With respect to the interpreter software, again, we know it's available for
> free -- but does the freeware license allow me to charge money for a package
> containing a copy without paying the author of the program a royalty? Not a
> trivial question.
So the options are:
- relicense from author(s)
- write your own interpreter
Personally, I think writing a commercial interpreter would be the way
to go, but I know that's probably going to get ridiculed here.
David C.
David Whyld
I'm guessing you've bought a few books over the years even though you
can get the selfsame books from your library completely free of charge.
Daphne Brinkerhoff
> Which brings up an interesting point. Peter chose a World's Fair and
> found a niche for selling. As much imagination that runs rampant here,
> what other niches are out there left untapped?
>
> Peter has proven you can mix fiction with historical events and sell to
> the historical savvy. I would think a geniune Civil War game could
> make money. Or a Titanic game to people who have a fascination on
> sunken ships.
This is a nice idea for those who are interested in history or some
other subject matter where there's a ready-made audience. For those who
aren't particularly interested in such things, it's at best bittersweet
to think that that might be the only way to sell IF these days.
Fortunately, that's not the only way, or so I gather. At one point Kent
Tessman vaguely said that Future Boy has been doing pretty well for
sales, at least enough to make his venture worthwhile.
It would be cool if Kent would tell us his marketing tips sometime, if
he's willing.
Greg
Greg Boettcher
> It would be cool if Kent would tell us his marketing tips sometime, if
> he's willing.
>
> Greg
Oh crap. That was me who posted that from my girlfriend's computer.
Sorry for the confusion.
Greg
aph...@altavista.com
Daphne Brinkerhoff, sounds nice. A.P. Hill likes the ladieeeees. How
about an introduction sometime? Daphne Brinkerhoff, sounds like a good
IF character, can I use that?
Vladimir V. Korablin
Jim Aikin wrote:
> With respect to the interpreter software, again, we know it's available for
> free -- but does the freeware license allow me to charge money for a package
> containing a copy without paying the author of the program a royalty? Not a
> trivial question.
Well, for Frotz it's okay -- GPL's terms allow this. The catch is
whether a bundle containing a game and the interpreter would constitute
a "derivative work", since then you'd be obliged to provide the game's
source code.
Vladimir V. Korablin
Vladimir V. Korablin wrote:
> whether a bundle containing a game and the interpreter would constitute
> a "derivative work", since then you'd be obliged to provide the game's
Oops, that should read "... whether a game would constitute ..."
Mike Robinson
So long as the interpreter is distributed as a separate application to the
zcode, such that it could be used to run other zcode games, it would be
"mere aggregation" and acceptable under the GPL.
chris.n...@gmail.com
I wonder if you are really the author of this post. I've traded email
with you previously and you seem like a friendly fellow. I have to say
that I did not purchase one of your games after trying a demo. Your
game was ok, it just seemed like you were "writing". I didn't get into
the story because I kept being reminded that there was a person writing
everything I read. IMHO the best writers make you forget they're even
there. Lash is a great, old example of what I'm talking about. I was
not playing a game - I was living that story for a while. Classic
Stephen King stories such as Carrie and the Long Walk are such great
stories that you never even thing about the word choices. In your IF
the reader is constantly reminded of your "craft". I didn't think it
was horrible, but you, sir, are no Shakespeare.
Best of luck to you and your 150,000 customers.
What I wouldn't give for another story like A Mind Forever Voyaging.
ati...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> Taken from the ACG comments section from his article:
>
> "It's time to set the record straight....again.
>
> Once again I am here to clean up the mess you "drive by" critics
> leave behind. I will never yield to your mountains of lies, deceit and
> evil manipulations no matter how much vitriol you spew forth.
>
> So you may as well quit now and go away.
>
> God knows that I never will.
>
> The people have spoken. The sad truth is that you all just don't
> want to listen to what they have been saying over the past several
> years.
>
> Many people tried all the free games out there and quickly turned their
> back on them.
>
> Those same people end up buying Malinche games.
>
> I write games that people enjoy. Titles that entertain and tantalize.
>
> I write what sells. Every good author does.
>
> It's a sad to see the failings of the free community in producing
> games people just don't like.
>
> The amateur movement and Malinche are two distant, yet similar, tribes.
>
> We both do whatever we can to further the interactive fiction movement.
>
> The difference is that Malinche publishes adventure games people
> actually enjoy.
>
> The collective failure of the amateur movement to deliver games that
> entertain the world is responsible for Malinche's existance.
>
> Before I forget --- thank you.
>
> That's why Malinche has moved over 150,000 copies of our games since
> we started.
>
> Statistically, my games with distribution of 150,000+ dwarfs the
> collective efforts of the entire amateur movement.
>
> Malinche's staff numbers less than 10. The estimated population of
> the amateur community at large is shy of 500.
>
> In terms of manpower the amateur movemnt has 50 TIMES the resources of
> Malinche.
>
> Yet Malinche's performance in delivering enjoyable advenutre games is
> unequalled.
>
> Now I'll drive the point home even more-Malinche's customer
> database on any ONE of the titles we sell is far larger than the entire
> population of the entire amateur/free movement.
>
> Do you critics still feel powerful over there hiding behind your
> keyboards?
>
> You poor cretins bang the same tired drum and mouth the same inacurrate
> information time and time again. Unlike the lot of you I will elaborate
> and substantiate.
>
> I never "hide" the fact I use Inform. Or the Onyx Ring libraries.
> Or anything else. Evidence of this is all over the Malinche website,
> in every game I've written and it has been this year since
> Malinche's humble origins.
>
> I am only too glad to give credit where credit is due to all the hard
> working people that keep the engines of interactive fiction humming
> along.
>
> In fact-the license agreements of both Inform and the Onyx Ring
> libraries REQUIRE that me and Malinche to give full credit.
>
> And we do. So your complaint is summarily dismissed for being
> unfounded, inaccurate and just plain false.
>
> God bless Graham Nelson. All hail Jim Fisher.
>
> There. Even more credit. Which those two men so rightly deserve.
>
> Inform 6 and the OnyxRing libraries are right up there along side fire
> as among the major breakthroughs that have served humanity.
>
> The printing press, the computer and the iPod get honorable mention.
> Ok, while I'm in a generous mood I'll include cell phones too. And
> toaster ovens.
>
> And, oh yes, air conditioning. And elevators. And airplanes. And,
> OK, alochol.
>
> But Inform and OnyxRing is first in my eyes. I'd rather walk a
> flight of stairs or eat untoasted bread or drive to California than do
> without Inform 6 or the OnyxRing libraries.
>
> Conspiracy theory nuts won't find any black helicopters hovering over
> the Malinche offices or "Men in Black" hanging out in our reception
> area. We never have and never will cover up the truth.
>
> Back to the quality of my work ---
>
> If my games really and truly didn't stand up to the free games out
> there then how can it be that Malinche even exists now-almost four
> years after we started?
>
> Further-Why would Malinche offer a 60 day money back guarantee on
> every game we sell? NOBODY in the industry has ANY kind of return
> policy. I back up every game I write with a TWO MONTH unconditional
> satisfaction guarantee.
>
> Try and return a game you didn't like to any software
> retailer-online or offline. They'll laugh at the attempt.
>
> In a nutshell-Malinche would be bankrupt if the adventure games I
> write were nothing less than astonishing.
>
> We're making more money than ever because the entire Malinche team
> works tirelessly-full tilt-to deliver the very best adventure games
> on the planet.
>
> I can back that up with even more proof. I can prove every point I
> make while you poor souls have nothing but your empty, meaningless
> words to carry you.
>
> Visit the Malinche website and see what people have said about the free
> games out there.
>
> In some cases the free games of the amateur community INSPIRED them to
> purchase Malinche's interactive fiction and experience the difference
> that quality, professional interactive fiction delivers.
>
> While you're there you can plainly see what the world is saying about
> Malinche's interactive fiction.
>
> Critics can read the dozens of testimonials and weep.
>
> True adventure game fans will be overjoyed.
>
> The spirit of Infocom lives on-with Malinche.
>
> And, yes, I am the last of my kind. I am the only Implementor still
> standing.
>
> Peter Nepstead's 1893 is a single title he wrote three or so years
> ago. There is no second title or any announcement of one. For lack of
> evidence he is retired.
>
> Future Coffee's futureboy, now two years old, has no sequel or any
> other second title planned or announced. Ditto retired.
>
> They're gone. They are has beens. All done. "Done cooking" as
> we chefs say.
>
> I have seven titles out and two more scheduled for release in December
> 2006.
>
> By the evidence of the facts I am the last Implementor still active
> upon the earth.
>
> I know facts are alien things to the IF critics out there but, alas,
> I'll wield the facts and strike down the deceptions every time.
>
> And I shall not tire. I will not waver. I will persevere and continue
> to create to the betterment of the literate world.
>
> Signed,
>
> Grandmaster Howard Sherman
> The Last Implementor
> Malinche Entertainment "