OT Happy Fourth Of July!
Brian
of you have a wonderful holiday! Also, I won't be on the computer a
lot for the rest of summer, because I work at my job, and when the
weather is nice in the summer, I like to do things outside a lot when
I have the chance. I'll talk to all of you again when the weather
gets cold here in New Jersey again. I hope the rest of everybody's
summer is wonderful!
Brian
Emiliano Short
And why would I decide to have a holiday tomorrow?
And for that matter why do you think it's summer?
(rhetorical questions)
namekuseijin
I know it's rhetorical, but I think he's not aware that in the
internet things like nationality, gender or race mean nothing.
James Cunningham
You mean the whole world doesn't celebrate US's Independence Day?
That's ... disturbing. Insulting.
I think it calls for war, you third world cads.
Anyway. There are plenty of holidays this week! If you don't like ours,
take your pick.
http://www.holidays.net/dailys.htm
Best,
James
Conrad
> > And why would I decide to have a holiday tomorrow?
>
> > And for that matter why do you think it's summer?
>
> I know it's rhetorical, but I think he's not aware that in the
> internet things like nationality, gender or race mean nothing.
Heh. If they mean nothing, why do folks get so riled up over them?
A few years ago on the 4th, I was working and got take-out for lunch.
A girl I worked with at this job liked to have conversations about my
lunch. (She paid more attention to my lunch than I did. At some
point I had to explain to her, I don't usually pay a lot of attention
to what I eat; not unless it's a special occasion or something.
Lunch, I told her, is just what keeps me going during work.
("Oh," she said, and there was a long pause. "I love food," she told
me finally: "I couldn't live without it.")
So, when I brought back Chinese take-out for lunch, she had a lot of
questions about it. "Conrad, you got Chinese food on the fourth of
July?"
"Sure," I said. "Why not?"
"I dunno... I guess I'm just surprised that they're open on the 4th."
"Well we're open on the 4th. Aren't we?"
"Yeah, I *guess*."
"Besides, they're Chinese."
"Well what does *that* matter?"
"Jodi! When do they celebrate the 4th of July in China?"
"--I dunno!"
I looked around and elaborately whispered: "They don't!"
Jodi looked at me in shock. "Really?!"
Ah, well.
Conrad.
dott.Piergiorgio
mmmm.....
Perhaps at US Admunsen-Scott station they *both* celebrate the 4th of
July and has winter ? ;)
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Bert Byfield
> "--I dunno!"
> I looked around and elaborately whispered: "They don't!"
> Conrad.
National Day, October 1. Commemorates the founding of the People's Republic
of China in 1949.
S. John Ross
I'm not Jewish. But if someone wishes me a Happy Hannukah, I don't
take offense or preach about how everyone's not Jewish ...
Because someone wishing me a happy day, any day, for any reason, is a
friendly and kind gesture ... whether or not I "observe" or
"celebrate" that day for any particular reason of my own.
cejp...@googlemail.com
Who's taking offence? Who's preaching? No-one complained about being
wished a Happy Fourth of July, but they did point out that many people
will struggle to have a wonderful holiday, or enjoy the rest of
summer, since for them it is neither.
namekuseijin
> Who's taking offence? Who's preaching? No-one complained about being
> wished a Happy Fourth of July, but they did point out that many people
> will struggle to have a wonderful holiday, or enjoy the rest of
> summer, since for them it is neither.
Exactly. I even enjoyed the Independence Day flick and its double
meaning. :)
Nikos Chantziaras
You mean the one where the evil Europeans were turned into evil Aliens
with Will Smith smashing their faces? I liked that one too ;)
namekuseijin
Yeah. So they could celebrate the 4th of July in big style. ;)
Conrad
>
> National Day, October 1. Commemorates the founding of the People's Republic
> of China in 1949.
If there're no Star-Strangled Banners and Apple Pies, it ain't the 4th
of July.
Conrad.
James Jolley
Like it, Star-Strangled Banners indeed. Mind you, I guess americans get
sick of it after a while though.
--
Best
-James-
Conrad
>
> Like it, Star-Strangled Banners indeed. Mind you, I guess americans get
> sick of it after a while though.
If they do, they help the terrorists.
C.
James Jolley
Like the cynic in you. Mind you, your probably telling the truth.
--
Best
-James-
Conrad
>
> Like the cynic in you. Mind you, your probably telling the truth.
Don't get me wrong, James: I love my country. I think the Bill of
Rights is a beautiful document.
I love my girlfriend: that doesn't mean it's impossible for her to
lie to me.
Conrad.
James Jolley
I see what you mean and i'm not suggesting for one minute that your
unpatriotic in the least. I can only say that our anthem is the most
irritating work of musical art? there is. Don't know why, it just
irritates me. "Land of hope and glory" would have been a better one.
--
Best
-James-
namekuseijin
> I can only say that our anthem is the most
> irritating work of musical art? there is. Don't know why, it just
> irritates me.
I actually like it. It's a sober musical piece with beautiful tone,
much different than much of the merry fanfarres serving as national
anthems, like that of Brazil indeed.
Of course, too much of something is always annoying, even if it's
Mozart.
Bert Byfield
>> irritating work of musical art? there is. Don't know why, it just
>> irritates me.
> I actually like it. It's a sober musical piece with beautiful tone,
> much different than much of the merry fanfarres serving as national
> anthems, like that of Brazil indeed.
> Of course, too much of something is always annoying, even if it's
> Mozart.
Many Americans prefer "America the Beautiful" to the official US anthem,
and think we should change the anthem to be that song instead. It's a
better song. They used it in the American patriotic extravaganza movie *Red
Dawn* instead of the official anthem. And "America the Beautiful" is not
even about war.
namekuseijin
> Many Americans prefer "America the Beautiful" to the official US anthem,
> and think we should change the anthem to be that song instead. It's a
> better song.
I was not talking about lyrics, I don't care for that. I was talking
about the music.
Jerome West
I rather like the American national anthem. I'm with James on ours
though, I don't find it the least bit stirring. Of course, I'm talking
musically rather than lyrically or ideologically. I particularly like
the anthem of the old Soviet Union, I'm not sure what that says about me.
Jerome West
> I rather like the American national anthem.
Erk, I meant the national anthem of the U.S.A. of course. Apologies to
other Americans.
The Lone Gunman
Good point. I try to remember that at times like this when all my fellow
lemmings are mindlessly going through the rituals which celebrate an
independence that no longer exists [except in ritual or like a
fossilized religious dogma]. America's founding fathers fought and bled
for something, and maybe some Americans really do know what that
something is they are celebrating [most only vaguely if at all], but
that something has long since been sold out to the international
interests of global corporations and high finance. Those American
forefathers warned America's posterity about them. My favorite
president, "Big Hickory", Andrew Jackson dedicated his administration to
fighting the anti-independence forces of international finance
['dependence' mongers you could call them]. But I'm no better than my
fellow lemmings. I go along with it. I don't stir up trouble or try to
bring down the government like my forefather's did. So disregard
everything I've said above and go back to the nice warm safe American Dream.
Kazuki Mishima
> I particularly like
> the anthem of the old Soviet Union, I'm not sure what that says about me.
I think that the anthem of the Soviet Union was adapted to the current
anthem of Russia. The lyrics have changed, but I think the music is
basically the same. It's just too pretty a song to abandon.
Peace,
Kazuki Mishima
Jerome West
Ah, I was aware that Russia adopted a new anthem after the fall of the
Soviet Union, but the fact that it was changed back in 2000 had escaped
me. I guess they did think it was too pretty to abandon after all!
Timofei Shatrov
tried to confuse everyone with this message:
Yeah, its a very pretty song when you think about the millions of people killed
and tortured in GULAGs.
--
|Don't believe this - you're not worthless ,gr---------.ru
|It's us against millions and we can't take them all... | ue il |
|But we can take them on! | @ma |
| (A Wilhelm Scream - The Rip) |______________|
namekuseijin
> >On Jul 5, 4:14 am, Jerome West <jeromecw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I particularly like
> >> the anthem of the old Soviet Union, I'm not sure what that says about me.
> and tortured in GULAGs.
Don't confuse music and lyrics. Or the composer bias with the work
produced. Music is an abstract art and has no meanings besides the
ones you subjectively experience.
Timofei Shatrov
tried to confuse everyone with this message:
>On Jul 7, 2:17=A0am, g...@mail.ru (Timofei Shatrov) wrote:
>> >On Jul 5, 4:14 am, Jerome West <jeromecw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I particularly like
>> >> the anthem of the old Soviet Union, I'm not sure what that says about =
>me.
>> Yeah, its a very pretty song when you think about the millions of people =
>killed
>> and tortured in GULAGs.
>
>Don't confuse music and lyrics. Or the composer bias with the work
>produced. Music is an abstract art and has no meanings besides the
>ones you subjectively experience.
A national anthem is a cultural artifact, and it always carries associative
weight with it. While we are talking about abstract art, how about swastika?
When you see swastika graffiti on the wall, does it have any meaning to you? If
Germany put the swastika back on its flag, would you say that it's "pretty"?
Now consider that atrocities which happened in Soviet Union far exceed Holocaust
in scale. The reintroduction of the old Soviet anthem was equivalent to spitting
on the graves of millions of people. And I'd say, calling this music "pretty" is
quite offensive, at least I was offended by it.
namekuseijin
> The reintroduction of the old Soviet anthem was equivalent to spitting
> on the graves of millions of people. And I'd say, calling this music "pretty" is
> quite offensive, at least I was offended by it.
The Jewish people are ok with Richard Wagner music by now, even though
he was a antisemitic scoundrel and his music was heavily employed by
nazis in propaganda.
I understand it's difficult to disassociate the cultural baggage
symbols bring with them, specially when brought out of its original
context: like the swastika, indeed. Symbols don't have any intrinsic
meaning other than what you wish or is taught them to have. Music is
aural symbolism.
By listening to the old Soviet anthem, I don't hear people suffering
nor dying, though I'm aware they did in the country the music came
from. I don't believe the composer was thinking about it either. I'd
say Heavy Metal has more to do with earthly suffering.
JDC
As an experiment, you might care to wander through Berlin humming the
melody to the Horst Wessel-Lied and see what happens...
-JDC
namekuseijin
It just so happens that people in Berlin were taught to contextualize
the Horst Wessel-Lied to a painful meaning. The music certainly has
nothing to it and if I walk by Rio de Janeiro humming it, I won't fall
dead because people there don't associate the music to the meaning
people in Berlin give to it.
BTW, even the lyrics, as translated to wikipedia, seem to tell
nothing. It sounds like any other anthem, about fallen heroes. They
don't imply such heroes were truculent pawns directly or indirectly
responsible for the deaths of millions of civilians, like is indeed
the case for most war heroes mindlessly fighting for their countries/
current tyrants.
JDC
I entirely agree with you about context, but I really think that it's
impossible to analyze music (or other art forms) without considering
the context of the work. Sometimes the associations develop after the
creation of the piece (like some of the examples that have come up
here), but often there are intentional references, either in lyrics or
in the music (like when you realize the bass player in a jazz quartet
is playing the bass line for Smoke On the Water). In the former case,
the associations may not be relevant to a critique of the composer,
but you'd certainly want to consider them in critiquing a performer.
-JDC