IF and children
Brendan Desilets
Chuck Smith wrote:
> I am working on the first of what could be several episodes in a continuing
> IF adventure targeted (but not exclusive) to young people. Does anyone have
> experience with elementary-school age children and IF?
In my teaching, I've had quite a lot of experience with kids and IF, but my
students are mostly of middle school age, roughly ten through fourteen.
> What age do you think
> children understand the concepts of compass direction and problem solving?
Certainly, the youngest kids I've worked with have these notions pretty well
established, at least to a degree that's useable with IF.
>
>
> The story I am creating is meant to involve parents as well, sitting next to
> their children who are controlling the action. The story has puzzles that
> range from very simple to slightly more difficult. I want to encourage
> parent involvement to help with some of the problems and provide
> *supportive* guidance and commentary.
Sounds great. I hope you'll let us know when the story becomes available.
>
> Do you think there will be any interest in this project by 9-12 year olds?
> Or are they so focused on glitzy commercial games that creating something
> for them would be futile? My target group is primarily 9-12 year old bright
> and verbal children.
Such kids generally like IF a great deal. You can read some of their comments
on my web site at:
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/bdesilets/quotes.html
Peace,
Brendan
--
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, BDES...@MEDIAONE.NET.
____________________________________________________________________
Brendan Desilets
Kidforum Manager
Teacher and Internet Consultant
John Glenn Middle School
Bedford, Massachusetts, USA 01730
(781)275-1700
http://users.massed.net/~desilets
bdes...@mediaone.net
____________________________________________________________________
Matt.
"Chuck Smith" <cas...@ksu.edu> wrote:
*snip*
> What age do you think children understand the concepts of compass
direction and problem solving?
>
Well I don't have any experience with kids and IF but I can give you
some general pointers about chilren of that age.
OK, try and stay awake.
Direction: Between age 8 to 10 they can apply the concept of right and
left to objects outside themselves. Elementary school children can have
dificulty identifying all but the cardinal directions and in describing
locations. So compass directions may be beyond a 9 year old but ok for
a 12 year old. If you are going to reveal a map as you go and placing a
compass image permanently on screen should help. (Can the map and
compass be shown at the same time?)
With regards to the story content it is a misconception that children
prefer highly imaginative stories, they actually prefer stories about
things that "could hapen", and not things so far removed from their
experiences that they cannot understand them. So don't go too overboard
with the fantasy side to try and make it appealing, just make the
interactive part fun.
Hope this helps.
There will be a quiz on Monday. :-]
Matt.
--
"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot -
but I always found them."
Rodney Dangerfield.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Killworth
>
> I am working on the first of what could be several episodes in a continuing
> IF adventure targeted (but not exclusive) to young people. Does anyone have
> children understand the concepts of compass direction and problem solving?
<snip>
Well, I wrote Giantkiller many years ago, which Topologika still sells,
for the 9-11 age group. It's almost pure text, puzzle(math) based, pokes
fun at the fairy tale genre, and has sold a helluva lot of copies to
individuals and schools over the years. (I hasten to add the reason it
sold well was almost entirely due to teacher input to the design
process!)
You might want to look at www.topolgka.demon.co.uk/ to find out about
it, and I'm happy to talk about the detail level if I can remember it
all. I've reprogrammed it several times now, but never into Inform!
Peter K.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Peter D. Killworth, James Rennell Division for Ocean Circulation
and Climate, Southampton Oceanography Centre, Empress Dock, Southampton
SO14 3ZH, England.
Tel: +44 (0)23-80596202
Fax: +44 (0)23-80596204
Email: P.Kil...@soc.soton.ac.uk
Web: http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/JRD/PROC/people/pki/pki.html
Ocean Modelling Newsletter: http://www.elsevier.nl/locate/omodol/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Smith
I think your point on content is significant. Children from 9-12 (and older
of course) have enjoyed reading C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia. I
know preschoolers (I am a former preschool teacher) LOVE fairy tales. So how
does that jive with your statement? Just curious.
I think the actions of fairy tale characters do fit within an understandable
framework. Peter Pan can fly, but there is a fundamental familiarity with
him as a character to make him believable for that age. Is this what you
mean? The story I am creating is more a fable than a fairy tale. No witches
or dwarves. There will be some very nasty villains though. Gotta keep those
young hearts racing at times.
I think moving in four directions (N,E,S,W) only would be the way to go
(what I am now doing). SUDS allows for 8 directions, but I think that could
get too confusing.
I am VERY happy to see that you responded. I think anyone who enjoys IF has
a stake in preparing younger people for this experience. A diminishing
audience does not bode well for the "hobby."
Thanks for the advice. There is no one here in my locality who has the
experience y'all have to provide this kind of support. Toiling in the
wilderness is no fun.
Chuck
The WonderWise Parent
http://www.ksu.edu/wwparent/
"Matt." <oz722...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:8p42jf$rch$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Chuck Smith
Visited the site and found your Giant Killer page. Since I don't have any
connection with you or the company, here's the url for others to visit:
http://www.topolgka.demon.co.uk/catlog/giantk.htm.
Did you create the extra resources ("Pack includes worksheets, manual and
full worked solution. Better than 'L' [we think] and very popular with
children at school or in the home.") or did the company? I think this
approach closely approximates what I plan to do through my website (though
there will be no cost to users). Do you know what program is required to
play the demo?
I dunno. This might be a British thing. I've noticed that a good number of
the most creative IF devotees appear to have UK email addresses. This may be
due to the great literary tradition of the UK. Many of the IF programs (both
parser and nonparser) appear to have UK authors. So here I am in the middle
of OZ (the real OZ, i.e., Kansas) scratching my head and wondering if my
project will fly. Is there hope? 8^)**
Chuck Smith
The WonderWise Parent
http://www.ksu.edu/wwparent/
"Peter Killworth" <P.Kil...@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:39B6122A...@soc.soton.ac.uk...
Chuck Smith
of Master Storytellers"--not sure if I would consider myself a "master" but
the greeting makes me feel at home.
I'll certainly be exploring your site in a more leisurely fashion later. I
will also keep you posted about the completion of the first episode in my
ongoing adventure. I am very interested in exploring the potential
advantages of creating a parser-free adventure with SUDS as opposed to the
more traditional approach of TADS or INFORM.
The only way to make the contrast is for readers to try out the story and
see how it compares for themselves. So its back to work for me.
Chuck
The WonderWise Parent
http://www.ksu.edu/wwparent/
"Brendan Desilets" <bdes...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39B58BBA...@mediaone.net...
Matt.
Chuck Smith <cas...@ksu.edu> wrote in message
news:8p5grv$nh9$1...@cnn.ksu.ksu.edu...
> I think the actions of fairy tale characters do fit within an
understandable
> framework. Peter Pan can fly, but there is a fundamental familiarity with
> him as a character to make him believable for that age. Is this what you
> mean?
Yes, exactly. Peter Pan is a boy and so children can relate to him, the fact
that he flies is something that *could* happen. Give them a Grue and they
are going to loose interest pretty quickly, unless there is a picture to
relate to, which is not possible in text IF. Also I'm referring to the
younger age group (9ish), and as you know in a class of 30 kids there are
huge range of abilities and interests.
I dont see any reason why children would not be interested in IF, most
children are after all egocentric and like stories that centre around
themselves, IF is a perfect example of this.
Good luck with your project, it's a noble undertaking to bring IF to a
younger generation.
Matt.
--
Exhilaration is that feeling you get just after
a great idea hits you, and just before you
realise what's wrong with it.
Gunther Schmidl
> are going to loose interest pretty quickly, [...]
In this case, they can only hope the GRUE loses interest quickly, or it's
gonna be kids-no-more.
--
+-----------------+---------------+------------------------------+
| Gunther Schmidl | ICQ: 22447430 | IF: http://gschmidl.cjb.net/ |
|-----------------+----------+----+------------------------------|
| gschmidl (at) gmx (dot) at | please remove the "xxx." to reply |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------+
Peter Killworth
had
better gifts that way than I did, which isn't surprising).
Inform is about the one system I didn't convert it to. Since it's
still a commercial program (though at the end of its very long days now)
I can't offer you an interpreter and a compiled program [mainly 'cos
I don't have the interpreters for different machines!].
However, if you spoke nicely to Brian at Topologika he might well take
pity on you and send you a copy... you're hardly in competition with
him.
Two things I built in which may be of use:
1. Some randomisation so that if Johnny at terminal 1 gets a solution
it isn't necessarily the same for Jemima next door at terminal 2;
2. The game can take a term [read semester] to work through; the reward
for solving a puzzle is, in the words of someone I've forgotten, to get
a harder puzzle.
Cheers,
Peter
T Raymond
>Matt. (M...@mail.com) wrote:
>
>: Yes, exactly.
>: Peter Pan is a boy and so children can relate to him, the fact
>: that he flies is something that *could* happen. Give them a Grue
>: and they are going to loose interest pretty quickly,
>
>This is the wackiest thing I've read all week. Pixie-dust flying
>is possible, and grues are impossible?
Well there's always the flying grue, who happened to be standing in
Peter's shadow when the candle went out and Tinkerbell spilled the
pixie dust.
Tom
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tom Raymond adk AT usaDOTnet
"The original professional ameteur."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matt.
> Well there's always the flying grue, who happened to be standing in
> Peter's shadow when the candle went out and Tinkerbell spilled the
> pixie dust.
Which made the grue sneeze, trip, and fall into the bottomless pit in
the attic.
Matt :-]
--
Exhilaration is that feeling you get just after
a great idea hits you, and just before you realise
whats wrong with it.
Arcum Dagsson
russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> In article <rdDt5.360$Hq3....@telenews.teleline.es>,
> Matt. <M...@mail.com> wrote:
> }
> }Yes, exactly. Peter Pan is a boy and so children can relate to him, the
> }fact
> }that he flies is something that *could* happen.
>
> Peter Pan is a short woman who thinks she's a boy :-)
>
I was always under the impression that Peter Pan was a drug dealer... ^_^
--
--Arcum Dagsson
"You say there's a horse in your bathroom, and all you can do is stand
there naming Beatles songs?"
Jason Brown
> I am working on the first of what could be several episodes in a
continuing
> IF adventure targeted (but not exclusive) to young people. Does anyone
have
think
> children understand the concepts of compass direction and problem solving?
I first fell in love with IF when I played "The Hobbit Software Adventure"
and "The Wizard of OZ" on my family's Commodore 128. Both games utilized
pictures, music (some of the "Hobbit" music still sends chills up my spine)
*and* eight compass directions and up/down. At the time, I was somewhere
between 5 and 8 years old. I can't give you an exact number, but it was
definitely younger than 9. I was able to get quite far in "The Wizard of
OZ", though I wasn't able to actually complete it till I was somewhat older,
but I do still have a pad of paper somewhere with the beginnings of a
walk-through in my young chicken-scratch writing, before I had even heard
the word "walk-through".
I think at that age level, the directions are not likely to be much trouble,
provided a parent is there to teach the child how to use them. In fact, the
idea of the compass may not even enter their heads, but they will still be
able to use them. What I mean to say is, someone can play a game where they
go through different colored doors. They may not know where the doors lie in
relationship to each other, but they quickly learn how to get around anyway.
The same is true for children, they may not understand what the compass
directions mean, but by using them, they will soon learn. That is how
children learn much of what they know, anyway (i.e. language).
Simple problem solving should not be an issue. Just watch a young child play
Sierra's "Mixed-up Mother Goose". They have little difficulty in figuring
out how they need to manipulate the game world in order to make things
happen.
I hope my comments make sense to you and are of help. As I said, I speak
from personal experience.
-JB
Aris Katsaris
Lucian Paul Smith <lps...@rice.edu> wrote in message
news:8p8lkc$e10$1...@joe.rice.edu...
> Matt. (M...@mail.com) wrote:
>
> : Yes, exactly.
> : Peter Pan is a boy and so children can relate to him, the fact
> : that he flies is something that *could* happen. Give them a Grue and
they
> : are going to loose interest pretty quickly,
>
> possible, and grues are impossible?
Yes.
Simply put, pixies exist in the collective unconscious of human imagination.
Grues
don't. Trolls would be better than grues but still a bit too distant. The
vague
"bogeyman" (sp?) is good. Ghosts are just as good as pixies - perhaps
even better.
Aris Katsaris
indigolem
what the heck is a grue?
---
Indigolem ||[ http://octoberzone.port5.com/ ]||
Passenger Pigeon
(indigolem) wrote:
> I guess it's about time I asked...
> what the heck is a grue?
If you can hunt down an Infocom game...ask it.
--
William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com
HTH. HAND. * <--- Perth
Visit my web page! Current essay: Happiness. http://come.to/passenger-pigeon/
John Elliott
>In article <39bb65eb...@news.evcom.net>, octob...@yahoo.calm
>(indigolem) wrote:
>
>> I guess it's about time I asked...
>> what the heck is a grue?
>
>If you can hunt down an Infocom game...ask it.
Or, failing that, Balances will tell you.
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
KayCee
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:8pflbd$bem$1...@newssrv.otenet.gr...
> Simply put, pixies exist in the collective unconscious of human
imagination.
That's interesting - what's your source for that statement? I understand
that bears have that presence - even bears with unusual skills, such as the
ability to live under beds. But I've never before heard it about pixies.
...KayCee
Matthew T. Russotto
}that he flies is something that *could* happen.
Peter Pan is a short woman who thinks she's a boy :-)
}Give them a Grue and they
}are going to loose interest pretty quickly, unless there is a picture to
}relate to, which is not possible in text IF.
Hmm. Nobody has seen a picture of the bogeyman, but most children seem to
be able to relate to him. I don't think the idea of a creature that
eats people who wander around in the dark is really at all alien to
children.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Aris Katsaris
KayCee <kcol...@cadvision.com> wrote in message
news:39bba...@news.cadvision.com...
Source? I don't know what exactly you mean - I mainly meant that every
child knows what a pixie is and how it tends to behave... this doesn't
occur for grues... Sorry if I used fancy language to say that.
Aris Katsaris
Arifa Khursheed
birthday. i needed to cheat on deadline, but i did understand the concepts
of the game.
-arifa-
James M. Power
use the term here to mean _small_ and I think there is a recreational
group for young girls called Pixies...
-Jim
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> I am working on the first of what could be several episodes in a continuing
> IF adventure targeted (but not exclusive) to young people. Does anyone have
> experience with elementary-school age children and IF? What age do you think
> children understand the concepts of compass direction and problem solving?
Compass direction as a *concept* is preschool, but they might not
think of things like "northeast" until somewhat later. Also, you
might want to ennumerate the possible directions in the VagueGo
response.
Problem solving? Again, as a *basic* concept it's preschool,
but then you have to consider the complexity of the problem.
All problem solving is not created equal.
> Do you think there will be any interest in this project by 9-12 year olds?
Probably. But you may have to catch their attention first, say,
by showing them the game. They may not go looking for "interactive
fiction" in a search engine at that age, mainly because they may
not be old enough to have ever *heard* of it.
> Or are they so focused on glitzy commercial games that creating something
> for them would be futile?
Some of them might be. I wouldn't worry about that, though.
IF is a niche, but it's a significant niche.
--
Forward all spam to u...@ftc.gov
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> I think your point on content is significant. Children from 9-12 (and older
> of course) have enjoyed reading C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia.
Children of preschool age have been known to understand nontrivial
portions of the symbolism therein without having it explained.
Children are *NOT* stupid. Inexperienced, yes. Ignorant, too.
But they're not stupid.
> preschoolers (I am a former preschool teacher) LOVE fairy tales.
> So how does that jive with your statement? Just curious.
It varies. It is true that children don't need a story
to have a lot of developed fantastic stuff to enjoy it.
Especially shorter stories are often appealing to young
children even if they are very simple, as long as the
kids can identify with the characters. OTOH, immaginative
stories *also* appeal to children. (Basically, kids like
stories.)
Some children are turned off by conflict in stories,
especially anything that could be construed as "scary",
such as the Scoobie Doo series (really) or fire safety
literature that talks about things like houses burning
down. But this is not universally true of all children;
some enjoy a good suspensful plot.
> I think moving in four directions (N,E,S,W) only would be the way to go
I concur. Particularly if you ennumerate these directions,
they should be able to remember them. At age 9 some may
have trouble remembering which are which -- for example,
they may not be certain whether, after going west, they
should go east or north to get back. (If you have a
visible compass rose they can click, this may not be a
problem, however.) And the poster who said left and right
are a problem was straight on. They *understand* left and
right, but they often forget which is which.
> SUDS allows for 8 directions, but I think that could
> get too confusing.
It's also probably not necessary for a simple story
with a simple map and setting.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > Peter Pan is a short woman who thinks she's a boy :-)
> >
> I was always under the impression that Peter Pan was a drug dealer... ^_^
Peter Pan is an offbrand of peanut butter.
David Given
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) writes:
[...]
>> I think your point on content is significant. Children from 9-12 (and older
>> of course) have enjoyed reading C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia.
>
> portions of the symbolism therein without having it explained.
> Children are *NOT* stupid. Inexperienced, yes. Ignorant, too.
> But they're not stupid.
Definitely. You should read some Diana Wynne Jones; she's said in
interviews that one reason she likes writing for children is that
they're used to having to think about things. Her books are like intricate
puzzles, where you're dumped in the middle and left to work out what's
going on yourself. _Hexwood_, for example, is very strange (the order in
which the scenes are presented is *not* the order in which they happen,
despite all indications), and yet makes absolute sense. She's said that
she's had families come up to her in signings; parent has said, "I didn't
understand that at all," and child has said, "*I* thought it was obvious."
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "The cup of Ireland's misfortunes has been
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | overflowing for centuries, and it is not
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | full yet." --- Sir Boyle Roche
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Source? I don't know what exactly you mean - I mainly meant that every
> child knows what a pixie is and how it tends to behave... this doesn't
> occur for grues... Sorry if I used fancy language to say that.
I was an adult before I ever heard the word "pixie". I knew the
word "fairy" from the phrase "fairy tales", but I didn't have
much real idea what a fairy was supposed to be, except that they
were presumably small. Honestly, as a child I had a better idea
what a Leprachaun was than a pixie or fairy.
Now, *monsters* every kid knows about, although only perhaps
a third or half actually think they might be real, I guess.
indigolem
>> child knows what a pixie is and how it tends to behave... this doesn't
>> occur for grues... Sorry if I used fancy language to say that.
I never knew a thing about faeries till I started to
study the folklore from which they came, and I
think the same is true for most people.
>I was an adult before I ever heard the word "pixie".
Oh come on, that's not true. You have to have seen
Peter Pan when you were a kid.
---
Indigolem ||[ http://octoberzone.port5.com/ ]||
Aris Katsaris
indigolem <octob...@yahoo.calm> wrote in message
news:39ca5f92...@news.evcom.net...
> >> Source? I don't know what exactly you mean - I mainly meant that every
> >> child knows what a pixie is and how it tends to behave... this doesn't
> >> occur for grues... Sorry if I used fancy language to say that.
>
> study the folklore from which they came, and I
> think the same is true for most people.
You never heard of the word fairy-godmother or *anything*?
You had to *study* folklore, before you heard of faeries?
Okay. I suppose you may be living in an entirely different
universe than mine... :-)
Aris Katsaris
indigolem
>You had to *study* folklore, before you heard of faeries?
>
>Okay. I suppose you may be living in an entirely different
>universe than mine... :-)
I didn't say I never heard of them, I said I didn't know anything
about them... as in real historical folklore, not children's fiction.
---
Indigolem ||[ http://octoberzone.port5.com/ ]||
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >I was an adult before I ever heard the word "pixie".
>
> Oh come on, that's not true. You have to have seen
> Peter Pan when you were a kid.
Seen? No.
I read a version of it, but it was more of a summary than
anything, and I don't recall the word "pixie" being used.
(The word "fairy" was, IIRC.)
I was not aware that Peter Pan had ever been performed
as a play, much less for TV or movie, until I was an
adult. Nor was I aware that the book was considered
a classic; the version I had seen could *never* be
considered a classic.
Torbjörn Andersson
> Oh come on, that's not true. You have to have seen
> Peter Pan when you were a kid.
I didn't. I didn't even get to see the Disney version until a few
years ago.
Torbjörn