Textfyre - Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter Go On Sale This Month
David C.
You are an intrepid fourteen year old orphan, known simply as "Jack", and
you're quietly moving through the crowds of Grubber's Market in the town of
Toresal in the northern parts of the island continent of Miradania.
You think about meeting up with your best friend Bobby, about hanging around
Teisha's silk tent, or harassing the local merchants in whatever way suits
you. But you're hungry at the moment and although Baron Fossville has taken
a dim view of most thieving, it isn't going to stop you from eating.
You "lift" an apple from a fruit stand, saunter to your favorite corner in a
nearby alley and are about to take a bite when suddenly there are a group of
mercenaries chatting nearby.
The leader is talking about finding an orphan and goes on to describe
someone that looks frighteningly exactly like the person staring back at you
in the puddle on the ground. You scramble up onto the market rooftop to
listen in on their plans...
***************************************************
This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
purchase and download Secret Letter from our website at
http://www.textfyre.com. We're accepting PayPal and Google Checkout as
payment.
Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter was initially conceived by David
Cornelson, then designed and written by Michael Gentry of Anchorhead fame.
The game engine, FyreVM, was developed by Jesse McGrew and based on the
Glulx virtual machine specification developed by Andrew Plotkin. The game
was written in Inform 7, a tool lovingly developed by Graham Nelson and
Emily Short, with the help and support of many others. Graeme Jefferis gets
the credit for writing the I7 code and doing a wonderful job. The game was
faithfully tested by Jacqueline Ashwell, Eric Eve, Peter Berman, Paul O'Brian,
and Jim Aikin. We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
copyrighting contributions. The user interface was developed by Thomas
Lynge, a friend of the IF community. The map was hand drawn by Jennifer
Montes. Of course the IF Community has played a large part in Textfyre's
creation and we're grateful for their support.
We hope you enjoy our games and tell your friends about them.
Sincerely,
David A. Cornelson, President
Textfyre, Inc.
peter...@hotmail.com
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> You are an intrepid fourteen year old orphan, known simply as "Jack", and
> you're quietly moving through the crowds of Grubber's Market in the town of
> Toresal in the northern parts of the island continent of Miradania.
>
> You think about meeting up with your best friend Bobby, about hanging around
> Teisha's silk tent, or harassing the local merchants in whatever way suits
> you. But you're hungry at the moment and although Baron Fossville has taken
> a dim view of most thieving, it isn't going to stop you from eating.
>
> You "lift" an apple from a fruit stand, saunter to your favorite corner in a
> nearby alley and are about to take a bite when suddenly there are a group of
> mercenaries chatting nearby.
>
> The leader is talking about finding an orphan and goes on to describe
> someone that looks frighteningly exactly like the person staring back at you
> in the puddle on the ground. You scramble up onto the market rooftop to
> listen in on their plans...
>
> ***************************************************
>
> This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> payment.
>
> Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter was initially conceived by David
> Cornelson, then designed and written by Michael Gentry of Anchorhead fame.
> The game engine, FyreVM, was developed by Jesse McGrew and based on the
> Glulx virtual machine specification developed by Andrew Plotkin. The game
> was written in Inform 7, a tool lovingly developed by Graham Nelson and
> Emily Short, with the help and support of many others. Graeme Jefferis gets
> the credit for writing the I7 code and doing a wonderful job. The game was
> faithfully tested by Jacqueline Ashwell, Eric Eve, Peter Berman, Paul O'Brian,
> and Jim Aikin. We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> copyrighting contributions. The user interface was developed by Thomas
> Lynge, a friend of the IF community. The map was hand drawn by Jennifer
> Montes. Of course the IF Community has played a large part in Textfyre's
> creation and we're grateful for their support.
>
> We hope you enjoy our games and tell your friends about them.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
I wanted to buy it as soon as it came along... but I was hoping for a
price about 8 dollars cheaper, so I'll put it off for a month or two.
Still, I'll be sure to. If it's a download, I assume it doesn't
include feelies, the only thing which saddens me. Now release the
thing so we can play it! :D
Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
for you, your team and your company!
peter...@hotmail.com
In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
you have animations)...
...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
price-tag, right?
James Jolley
Agreed. It's overly expensive. Waits for Howard Sherman to come along.
The battle of the implementors!
Best
-James-
S. John Ross
> include feelies, the only thing which saddens me.
Hopefully some digital home-printable feelies, though (surely?).
If it gets reviews that excite me, I'll probably buy a copy pretty
quickly (I don't mind pricey if it delivers in terms of feelies, hours
of awesome gameplay, feelies, good writing and feelies - and by this I
mean digital feelies that I can print first, feel later).
I just fancy the idea of having a new text adventure that I feel
obligated to finish because I paid for it. Maybe that sounds strange,
but that's the main appeal to me right now, along with the digi-
feelies (it's got em, right?)
markm
> We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> copyrighting contributions.
I'm guessing Rob didn't copywrite this message :-)
S. John Ross
> > We also want to thank J. Robinson Wheeler for his
> > copyrighting contributions.
>
> I'm guessing Rob didn't copywrite this message :-)
Maybe he was consulted as an IP lawyer :)
S. John Ross
* The website specifies that "Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter" is
the first of the "Miradania Series." Does that mean this is the first
chapter of an epic story, a self-contained story set in the same world
(Miradania, I presume) in which other, also self-contained stories
will be presented, or a mostly-self-contained story which sets up
sequels following the later adventures of Jack Toresal?
* Will there be some sort of trial version available?
Parham Doustdar
used to it by going to mallinch.net every day and checking to see if they
are giving it to anyone for free. :-)
--
---
Contact info:
Skype: parham-d
MSN: fire_lizard16 at hotmail dot com
email: parham90 at GMail dot com
<peter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:58ac025b-fbaf-44f8...@e20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
David C.
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
I'll put together an FAQ page on the website to answer questions.
Thanks for the feedback.
David C.
Al
>
> This month we will be releasing our first commercially developed Interactive
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> purchase and download Secret Letter from our website athttp://www.textfyre.com.
We're accepting PayPal and Google Checkout as payment.
What about those of us with no debt and NO credit cards. Is there a
way to
purchase by snail mail?
Jesse McGrew
I can't speak for whether Dave has something else in mind, but in
general you always have other options to buy something online:
If you have a checking account, it probably came with a Visa/MC debit
card, which you can use anywhere that accepts Visa/MC. PayPal can also
accept payments directly from your bank account.
Or you can go to a retail location (grocery store, credit union) and
pick up a Visa gift card. Some of them are even reloadable, so you can
go back and keep adding value to them with cash.
vw
John Smith
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Jobs
Angel Investor
We are seeking one or more accredited investors to help us launch the
company later this year. Your funds will be used to hire content creators,
management, marketing consultants, and pay for advertising including a new
professional website. Your business expertise and advice will also be very
welcome.
So investor is an actual job position in your company? I can see why you
need a new website.
James Jolley
<parham90...@gmail.com> said:
> Aw, another IF I can't play because of payment issues. Oh well. I've got
> used to it by going to mallinch.net every day and checking to see if they
> are giving it to anyone for free. :-)
Interesting that, wonder why you're like this? Typical blind twat then
wanting things for free?
James Jolley
Although it seems expensive, not knowing what's included we can't say
how valuable the program is. I'm guessing the interface took a lot of
work. It'd be good to try the product first.
Ron Newcomb
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Congratulations to you and all the team, Dave!
ou...@gmx.de
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
> Textfyre, Inc.
Great news! Congratulations, Mr Cornelson! I lurked your blog for over
a year and almost gave up hope.
Will you bring out a boxed version soon? It will be great to see IF
games on the market again. Complete with feelies, box, feelies,
manual, and some feelies. Errr, apart from that Malinche stuff. I hope
you will accept orders from Europe.
Best wishes,
Oliver U.
Heiko Nock
peter...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
>> for you, your team and your company!
> In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> you have animations)...
That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
> ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> price-tag, right?
You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
first place.
What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
--
"Die 'ordentlichen Gerichte' (gibt's auch Unordentliche?) reden sich
prinzipiell mit der Gesetzeslage heraus. 'Geltendes Recht', das ist der
bequemste Vorwand zum Verstecken der eigenen Entscheidungsschw�che."
-- Lars Gebauer kl�rt de.soc.recht.datennetze auf
peter...@hotmail.com
> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.games.int-fiction.]
>
> >> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
> >> for you, your team and your company!
> > In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> > Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> > Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> > stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> > game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> > you have animations)...
>
> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about price. It's way more
costly to make a movie than a book. Then again, it's more costly to
make a hardcover than a paperback. That's the whole extent of what I'm
saying, kindly don't put words in my mouth.
Also, I've tried to approach this from the POV of the average joe.
> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> > price-tag, right?
>
> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
> first place.
Wrong again, if you consider that those people are adventure gamers.
IF is a form of adventure gaming. They are, in fact, the closest thing
you can have to IFers without actually being IFers.
Also - if I read you right, then IF doesn't need any new readers/
players and it's not worth it to try and reach out, branch out, get
more people interested in it. That's a terribly narrow view, and one
which might lead to the demise of IF eventually.
> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
Ok, then, if you want to look at it like that - free IF is free. Non-
free IF is over 20 bucks.
And non-free adventure games, incidently, is around 10-15 bucks, on
the indie scene at least. And it's quality stuff, all the same.
peter...@hotmail.com
> >> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
> >> for you, your team and your company!
> > In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> > Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> > Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> > stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> > game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> > you have animations)...
>
> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that Wadjet Eye
Games, which I took because it's a random indie house which I *know*
to put out quality titles, has a price-tag of about 10-15 bucks. I'm
saying that, on a first glance, Wadjet Eye charges that for games
which have good quality graphics and animations, very good writing,
high quality voice acting, great soundtracks, maybe lacking sometimes
on gameplay in detriment to story but overall well worth the money and
more. Whereas Textfyre's first game is around 25 bucks for a text game
which I'm sure doesn't have voice acting, has very nice still
pictures, I doubt has animation, and I don't know whether it has a
soundtrack, but I'm guessing it doesn't.
And here's when you put words in my mouth: when you say that's like
saying a movie is always better than a book. I'm not talking about
quality. I'm talking about price. There's certainly many more people
involved in making a film than writing a book. And then hardbacks are
costier than paperbacks. Then again, just the other day I bought a
complete collection of Sherlock Holmes' stories and novels by 10
euros. And today I passed up on a collection of Tintin in original
language because, you know, I just don't have those 96 euros. The
difference in prices, among other factors, is because Tintin is full
of images - it's a comic, whereas Holmes is all text. On a similar
vein, I can understand Wadjet Eye charging more than Textfyre, for
instance. But not the reverse. Not when it comes to open up my wallet.
> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> > price-tag, right?
>
> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
> first place.
Wow. So people who care about IF have money growing out of their ears.
Such a corolary.
Not to mention the subtext: "There's no point in drawing new people to
IF".
> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
And Textfyre isn't? There are commercial graphic adventure games, you
know. Text adventures, now... only Malinche, who has a dreadful
reputation. This 25-bucks-game is competing with the free games
Anchorhead, Babel, Photopia, the whole Infocom and Magnetic Scrolls
and Level 9 games not for sale but available for those who care enough
to look, Blue Lacuna, Make it Good... no point in listing them all,
huh?
At any rate, I'll keep this discussion going if you want to, but David
C. didn't answer my point. Either he has thought about these issues
and doesn0t want to discuss them right now, or he'll talk about it in
his blog or in his FAQ, or he'll disregard it completely. Whichever's
the case, he knows my opinion, which was my point - *not* to start a
possibly flamey discussion and hijack the thread, but to let him know
I thought it was a bit overpriced, especially without feelies. My
overall opinion is still "Great to see good IF sold again, I'll buy it
when I can!".
> --
> "Die 'ordentlichen Gerichte' (gibt's auch Unordentliche?) reden sich
> prinzipiell mit der Gesetzeslage heraus. 'Geltendes Recht', das ist der
> bequemste Vorwand zum Verstecken der eigenen Entscheidungsschwäche."
> -- Lars Gebauer klärt de.soc.recht.datennetze auf
peter...@hotmail.com
first - the second one is better worded, the equivalent of "thinking
twice before properly answering".
peter...@hotmail.com
rec.games. Please forgive the doubled posts, people who're following
it on both sides.
***
> peter_pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
> >> for you, your team and your company!
> > In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
> > Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
> > Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
> > stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
> > game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
> > you have animations)...
> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that Wadjet Eye
Games, which I took because it's a random indie house which I *know*
to put out quality titles, has a price-tag of about 10-15 bucks. I'm
saying that, on a first glance, Wadjet Eye charges that for games
which have good quality graphics and animations, very good writing,
high quality voice acting, great soundtracks, maybe lacking sometimes
on gameplay in detriment to story but overall well worth the money and
more. Whereas Textfyre's first game is around 25 bucks for a text game
which I'm sure doesn't have voice acting, has very nice still
pictures, I doubt has animation, and I don't know whether it has a
soundtrack, but I'm guessing it doesn't.
And here's when you put words in my mouth: when you say that's like
saying a movie is always better than a book. I'm not talking about
quality. I'm talking about price. There's certainly many more people
involved in making a film than writing a book. And then hardbacks are
costier than paperbacks. Then again, just the other day I bought a
complete collection of Sherlock Holmes' stories and novels by 10
euros. And today I passed up on a collection of Tintin in original
language because, you know, I just don't have those 96 euros. The
difference in prices, among other factors, is because Tintin is full
of images - it's a comic, whereas Holmes is all text. On a similar
vein, I can understand Wadjet Eye charging more than Textfyre, for
instance. But not the reverse. Not when it comes to open up my wallet.
> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> > price-tag, right?
> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
> first place.
Wow. So people who care about IF have money growing out of their ears.
Such a corolary.
Not to mention the subtext: "There's no point in drawing new people to
IF".
> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
And Textfyre isn't? There are commercial graphic adventure games, you
Conrad
>
> Congratulations to you and all the team, Dave!
Hear, hear!
C.
rpgs rock dvds
> **** Jack Toresal and The Secret Letter ****
>
> Fiction game to the public. It will be available as a download for Windows
> PC's and Mac OS X and the price will be set at $24.95. You will be able to
> payment.
>
> David A. Cornelson, President
> Textfyre, Inc.
Say after a period of 12 months, if you created a pie chart of your
customers, what would it look like? For instance, on a sales chart,
what would the pie slice size be for customers who have seen your
messages on r.a.i.f? Would the largest pie slice be from the
education sector?
How will you handle tech support? Will you include a 'community
forum' on your website for this?
Good luck, hope it goes well.
Heiko Nock
>> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
>> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
>> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
> No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that Wadjet Eye
> Games, which I took because it's a random indie house which I *know*
> to put out quality titles, has a price-tag of about 10-15 bucks. I'm
> saying that, on a first glance, Wadjet Eye charges that for games
> which have good quality graphics and animations, very good writing,
> high quality voice acting, great soundtracks, maybe lacking sometimes
> on gameplay in detriment to story but overall well worth the money and
> more. Whereas Textfyre's first game is around 25 bucks for a text game
> which I'm sure doesn't have voice acting, has very nice still
> pictures, I doubt has animation, and I don't know whether it has a
> soundtrack, but I'm guessing it doesn't.
Why do you repeat what you already said? Do you think I can't read?
> And here's when you put words in my mouth: when you say that's like
> saying a movie is always better than a book. I'm not talking about
> quality. I'm talking about price.
No, you're not. You are saying it's not worth it at that price a.k.a.
overpriced. But you can't judge that by simply comparing prices of
different products or what it cost to create them.
If you wouldn't care about the quality, you would have simply said that
it is too expensive for you. But you keep talking about the amount of
content you get from other products for less money.
> There's certainly many more people involved in making a film than
> writing a book. And then hardbacks are costier than paperbacks.
> Then again, just the other day I bought a complete collection of
> Sherlock Holmes' stories and novels by 10 euros. And today I passed
> up on a collection of Tintin in original language because, you know,
> I just don't have those 96 euros. The difference in prices, among
> other factors, is because Tintin is full of images - it's a comic,
> whereas Holmes is all text. On a similar vein, I can understand
> Wadjet Eye charging more than Textfyre, for instance. But not the
> reverse. Not when it comes to open up my wallet.
So the price is determined by the content and you don't see enough
content in the Textfyre game to warrant the price but at the same time
you say it's not about quality?
>> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
>> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
>> > price-tag, right?
>> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
>> first place.
> Wow. So people who care about IF have money growing out of their ears.
> Such a corolary.
Now who is putting words in whose mouth? It's neither a corollary nor
did I say that.
The point is not how much money people have but how much the product is
worth to each of them.
> Not to mention the subtext: "There's no point in drawing new people to
> IF".
Ridiculous. Where did I say such a thing?
If you care about IF you will not make a choice based on the price
alone.
If you don't care about it, you won't suddenly buy IF just because of a
low price, especially not with a lot of other IF availably for free to
satisfy your curiosity.
>> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
> And Textfyre isn't?
Isn't what? Making free games? No.
Competing with free IF games? Yes. But that's what I said.
> There are commercial graphic adventure games, you know. Text
> adventures, now... only Malinche, who has a dreadful reputation.
How does this refute my point? (And who cares about Malinche?)
> This 25-bucks-game is competing with the free games Anchorhead,
> Babel, Photopia, the whole Infocom and Magnetic Scrolls and Level 9
> games not for sale but available for those who care enough to look,
> Blue Lacuna, Make it Good... no point in listing them all, huh?
Once again, that's what I said. What's your point?
> At any rate, I'll keep this discussion going if you want to, but David
> C. didn't answer my point.
You don't need to keep this discussion going just because I want to.
You only need to keep it going if you want to discuss something. It's
just that easy. And what does this have to do with David C. answering
or not answering your point?
> Either he has thought about these issues and doesn0t want to discuss
> them right now, or he'll talk about it in his blog or in his FAQ, or
> he'll disregard it completely.
Congratulations. That about covers all possibilities, doesn't it. You
really have put a lot of thought into this.
--
"Angesichts dieser Widerspr�chlichkeiten der Aussagen der Businsassen liegt
die Vermutung nahe, dass keiner von ihnen das Unfallgeschehen richtig
beobachtet und im Termin wiedergegeben hatte, dass es sich also um die
Kategorie von Zeugen handelte, die man etwas vereinfacht, aber dennoch nicht
ganz unzutreffend als 'Knallzeugen' bezeichnet [..]"
-- LG K�ln, Urteil vom 22. Januar 1986 (NJW 1987,1421)
peter...@hotmail.com
> peter_pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> >> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> >> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
> > No, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that Wadjet Eye
> > Games, which I took because it's a random indie house which I *know*
> > to put out quality titles, has a price-tag of about 10-15 bucks. I'm
> > saying that, on a first glance, Wadjet Eye charges that for games
> > which have good quality graphics and animations, very good writing,
> > high quality voice acting, great soundtracks, maybe lacking sometimes
> > on gameplay in detriment to story but overall well worth the money and
> > more. Whereas Textfyre's first game is around 25 bucks for a text game
> > which I'm sure doesn't have voice acting, has very nice still
> > pictures, I doubt has animation, and I don't know whether it has a
> > soundtrack, but I'm guessing it doesn't.
>
> Why do you repeat what you already said? Do you think I can't read?
I was trying to explain myself further. I'm sorry you took it
personal.
> > And here's when you put words in my mouth: when you say that's like
> > saying a movie is always better than a book. I'm not talking about
> > quality. I'm talking about price.
>
> No, you're not.
But I am.
> You are saying it's not worth it at that price a.k.a.
> overpriced. But you can't judge that by simply comparing prices of
> different products or what it cost to create them.
As a buyer, it's natural for me to compare products and what they
offer, and whay their price is. As a buyer. You apparently can't read,
because you keep missing this: as a BUYER, someone who cares about the
amount he's paying and the content he'll get for it. It's not all art,
it's commerce as well.
> If you wouldn't care about the quality, you would have simply said that
> it is too expensive for you. But you keep talking about the amount of
> content you get from other products for less money.
It's a factor. And it's not a factor that bothers ME, because I'll
still pay. It's a factor that may be a hindrance, because of what the
market has to offer. It's not an obstacle for me, it's a point I
thought was worth raising.
> > There's certainly many more people involved in making a film than
> > writing a book. And then hardbacks are costier than paperbacks.
> > Then again, just the other day I bought a complete collection of
> > Sherlock Holmes' stories and novels by 10 euros. And today I passed
> > up on a collection of Tintin in original language because, you know,
> > I just don't have those 96 euros. The difference in prices, among
> > other factors, is because Tintin is full of images - it's a comic,
> > whereas Holmes is all text. On a similar vein, I can understand
> > Wadjet Eye charging more than Textfyre, for instance. But not the
> > reverse. Not when it comes to open up my wallet.
>
> So the price is determined by the content and you don't see enough
> content in the Textfyre game to warrant the price but at the same time
> you say it's not about quality?
Yeah, you can't read. :P I see content in terms of quality, sure.
Especially since I know some of those names involved and they scream
quality. But Wadjet Eye also screams quality, and costs less, and
offers a graphical, musical and intelectual experience, whereas
Toresal offers an intellectual and semi-graphical experience. I'm
talking numbers, first and foremost, which is the first thing people
will look. I'm only *suggesting* that in such circumstances, the price
may be too high.
> >> > ...I mean, I'm sure you've thought this all out, but you do realize
> >> > that most people will make such blunt comparisons as this in terms of
> >> > price-tag, right?
> >> You might also say that such people wouldn't care about IF in the
> >> first place.
> > Wow. So people who care about IF have money growing out of their ears.
> > Such a corolary.
>
> Now who is putting words in whose mouth? It's neither a corollary nor
> did I say that.
Ok, then, I'll rephrase - people who care about IF don't have money
worries and can afford not to look at pricetags because they'll buy it
anyway when presented with a high-quality lower-priced graphical game
as an alternative.
> The point is not how much money people have but how much the product is
> worth to each of them.
Well, I'm sorry, but if I find, on the market, stuff that I feel is
worth more than 20 bucks priced at less than 20 bucks, I'll be harder
on stuff that's priced even higher than the former product. Especially
in these times of trial.
> > Not to mention the subtext: "There's no point in drawing new people to
> > IF".
>
> Ridiculous. Where did I say such a thing?
You did not say, I infered it from what you were saying on the basis:
"if people who look at price tags turn away from IF, let them turn
away, they wouldn't like it anyway". That's false. Money is an issue,
not an inconvenience.
> If you care about IF you will not make a choice based on the price
> alone.
>
> If you don't care about it, you won't suddenly buy IF just because of a
> low price, especially not with a lot of other IF availably for free to
> satisfy your curiosity.
Ok, then, I see money is no object for you. Allow the rest of the
world some leeway, though.
> >> What those games are really competing with are the free IF games.
> > And Textfyre isn't?
>
> Isn't what? Making free games? No.
>
> Competing with free IF games? Yes. But that's what I said.
>
> > There are commercial graphic adventure games, you know. Text
> > adventures, now... only Malinche, who has a dreadful reputation.
>
> How does this refute my point? (And who cares about Malinche?)
>
> > This 25-bucks-game is competing with the free games Anchorhead,
> > Babel, Photopia, the whole Infocom and Magnetic Scrolls and Level 9
> > games not for sale but available for those who care enough to look,
> > Blue Lacuna, Make it Good... no point in listing them all, huh?
>
> Once again, that's what I said. What's your point?
My point is, if you're competing with free games, 25 bucks will look
even more expensive than it would look otherwise.
> > At any rate, I'll keep this discussion going if you want to, but David
> > C. didn't answer my point.
>
> You don't need to keep this discussion going just because I want to.
> You only need to keep it going if you want to discuss something. It's
> just that easy.
Well, as long as you keep challenging me, I might as well keep it
going, but it's hijacking the thread a bit.
> And what does this have to do with David C. answering
> or not answering your point?
He's the one that should answer or not answer, since it's an issue
brought up by a potential costumer on his product. He chose not to
reply, not at the moment, not directly. So all we can do is speculate,
and little practicality is likely to come out of it.
> > Either he has thought about these issues and doesn0t want to discuss
> > them right now, or he'll talk about it in his blog or in his FAQ, or
> > he'll disregard it completely.
>
> Congratulations. That about covers all possibilities, doesn't it. You
> really have put a lot of thought into this.
More than you, apparently. You only consider that you can afford it,
so it's allright. I'll be able to afford it soon, but I'm trying to
bring a new viewpoint to the table, a new concern.
namekuseijin
> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.games.int-fiction.]
> peter...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Congratulations on this great landmark for Textfyre! I wish the best
>>> for you, your team and your company!
>> In fact, regarding the price - considering that you're competing with
>> Wadjet Eye Games, among other indie companies... and considering that
>> Wadjet Eye has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of
>> stuff that people immedatly do *not* associate with IF *even if* your
>> game turns out to have illustrations and soundtrack (but I doubt that
>> you have animations)...
>
> That's like saying a dvd movie is always better than a book because it
> has graphics, voice actors, musicians and a whole lot of other stuff. I
> guess nobody would be reading anymore, if that were true.
Sadly, that's exactly what has been happenning in the past few decades
thanks to the advances of the "Information Age": people are getting
dumber, spoon-fed and simply either find alternatives to reading or wait
until one is available. It's just way too much effort to scan lines of
text and doing some interpretation of the content...
I find it very telling how about 80% of my email is spam, another large
part being forwardings of lame jokes, links to stupid youtube videos,
some naked women shots and very rarely some "cool!" one-liners replies
to some of my most thoroughly thought-out emails. People prefer chat
programs -- eventually to get the full jetsons treatment -- because that
way they can move their mouths freely while their brains take a nap.
Thus, sadly I don't believe this business will be successful. May they
prove me wrong!
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
Ice Cream Jonsey
wrote:
> hello friends today i found new movie website
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>
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>
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> Mona
I have a knock-off IBM PCjr that was recently rescued out of a trailer
park eviction, where it lived with 300 cats, the Wonder Twin that can
only turn into water and a giant electromagnet. I also think it's got
bad ROM. Will the game work with this??? I'm going to be furious until
told otherwise, but afterwards I will only be able to communicate in
spittle. nnnnghhhhhhh!
Poster
namekuseijin <nameku...@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, this is why R*IF sucks big fat ugly butts. As soon as someone
DOES something, out from the woodwork come the legion of naysayers who
have never done anything to help IF, but can generate 1001 reasons why
what someone else has done will fail.
People prefer chat? Oh, I suppose that's why Danielle Steele makes her
living writing. And just how many different SF books are published every
month? And how popular is that manga thing again? I forget.
Reasoning from what idiot spammers in Russia think, or what lazy
Nigerians want, is a sure way towards absolute ruin. It's like saying,
"Well, some vocal group of people like Maroon 5. Therefore, I'm going to
not only give up my dreams of being a classical pianist, I'm going to
poop on anyone else who tries!"
Though I'm not friends with the Textfyre folks, I really hate it when
R*IFers outdo themselves in predicting the demise of people who try.
They did something. You didn't. Shut up. Thanks.
--
Poster
www.intaligo.com I6 libraries, doom metal, Building
sturmdrangif.wordpress.com Game development blog / IF commentary
Seasons: fall '09 -- One-man projects are prone to delays.
namekuseijin
> In article <h0ov5j$o30$1...@adenine.netfront.net>,
> namekuseijin <nameku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thus, sadly I don't believe this business will be successful. May they
>> prove me wrong!
>
> You know, this is why R*IF sucks big fat ugly butts. As soon as someone
> DOES something, out from the woodwork come the legion of naysayers who
> have never done anything to help IF, but can generate 1001 reasons why
> what someone else has done will fail.
Like I said, I'll feel glad if they prove me wrong.
Conrad
>
> You know, this is why R*IF sucks big fat ugly butts. As soon as someone
> DOES something, out from the woodwork come the legion of naysayers who
> have never done anything to help IF, but can generate 1001 reasons why
> what someone else has done will fail.
>
>
> Reasoning from what idiot spammers in Russia think, or what lazy
> Nigerians want, is a sure way towards absolute ruin. It's like saying,
> "Well, some vocal group of people like Maroon 5. Therefore, I'm going to
> not only give up my dreams of being a classical pianist, I'm going to
> poop on anyone else who tries!"
>
> Though I'm not friends with the Textfyre folks, I really hate it when
> R*IFers outdo themselves in predicting the demise of people who try.
>
> They did something. You didn't. Shut up. Thanks.
Easy for you to say. When you can find the energy to be consistently
pessimistic and negative about any implication of a glimmer of the
possibility of accomplishing something, *then* you get to share your
petty little hates and tell people to shut up.
Until then, you're an amateur. And nobody is interested in listening
to an amateur *trying* to be negative and discouraging.
C.
James Jolley
> On 13 Jun, 04:46, Poster <pos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> In article <h0ov5j$o3...@adenine.netfront.net>,
>>
>>
>>
>> �namekuseijin <namekusei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Heiko Nock escreveu:
>>>> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.games.int-fiction.]
> Calmed down enough? Good for you. I pre-ordered both Jack and Shadow
> yesterday.
>
> There. I'm supporting it, because I feel it should be supported. I
> also have a right, as a buyer, to state my opinion. Although I'm
> pretty sure I had that right before - this is still a place of free
> discussion, right?
>
> What's amazing is that I'm trying to state a simple point of view, not
> with any particularly intensity - and I've dropped it since then,
> since I only wanted to gently point it out to the authors, and having
> done that I'm quite satiesfied. However, the negative replies I get
> are very inflamatory. What, did I break some secret rule? Did I step
> on people's corns?
>
> People, I love IF as much as any of you. That doesn't mean I'm
> prepared to automatically fork over 25 bucks for IF when there's
> wonderful free IF. That's all I wanted to say, and that's all I wanted
> to say specifically to the author. If I wanted to discuss this in-
> depth (and if I were really against it, I *would*) then I'd create a
> new thread, instead of hikacking this one.
>
> As a matter of fact, I did fork over the 25 bucks. That's because I
> believe in this project, and am pretty assured of its quality.
>
> Poster, Nock at least had some reasoning to back him up. You're just
> inflamed and incensed, out of all reason and proportion. Calm down.
I have to agree here. Poster's response was extreme. Alright, I know I
have views on other things and have been extreme but this was
different. Personally, having bought Malinche games in the past i'm
reluctant to pay again until demos or something similar is available.
Perhaps a SPAG review.
Best
-James-
namekuseijin
> I have to agree here. Poster's response was extreme. Alright, I know I
> have views on other things and have been extreme but this was
> different. Personally, having bought Malinche games in the past i'm
> reluctant to pay again until demos or something similar is available.
> Perhaps a SPAG review.
I have no doubt that the pedigree is a lot better (the author of
Anchorhead, come on!) and the fact that this a true enterprise by
several enthusiastic and creative folks rather than a single chap
claiming to be the last true implementor when clearly his amateur
counterparts from the IF community have bested him game-wise. It's
only that I personally don't feel to be in the target audience for
this game, which seems to be pre-teens or something. That and the
fact that pre-teens these days are all about Wii, youtube and general
idiocy, but hopefully that's an over-generalization...
Conrad
> I have to agree here. Poster's response was extreme. Alright, I know I
> have views on other things and have been extreme but this was
> different. Personally, having bought Malinche games in the past i'm
> reluctant to pay again until demos or something similar is available.
> Perhaps a SPAG review.
There's any number of things I'm not interested in purchasing, but I
don't announce it loudly in public.
Conrad.
S. John Ross
> Personally, having bought Malinche games in the past i'm
> reluctant to pay again until demos or something similar is available.
> Perhaps a SPAG review.
Fortunately, TextFyre guy did confirm (in another thread) that there
will be web-playable demos available for certain, and downloadable
demos if the webby demos don't fill the need.
For my money, anyway (and here I _don't_ mean that as a metaphor)
that's the one and only marketing technique I have any need for. Lemme
try before I buy, and if it rocks my world I'll happily pony up the
cashola to have my world rocked the rest of the way. I'm a very
straightforward, one-box-on-the-checklist kind of customer :)
namekuseijin said:
> It's only that I personally don't feel to be in the target audience for
> this game, which seems to be pre-teens or something.
Yeah, the website is pretty clear on the target audience: "Textfyre is
a Software Development company building educational entertainment
software for reading-aged children."
That said, for my own tastes, I'm frequently, more or less, a reading-
aged child (I'm always a child, it's my level of literacy that
fluctuates).
... as for Poster's ranty moment ... I'm all in favor of a good rant.
So the only real part about it that raises my eyebrow is the
implication that "helping IF" is prerequisite for expressing
criticism. Part of my confusion may stem from my ignorance of what
"helping IF" might even entail or look like. Apparently TextFyre has
"done something" to "help IF" and that makes criticizing them wrong. I
don't see any part of that as making sense.
James Jolley
What is it with some folk here? If people don't let authors know that
they're not interested in buying they're product, what's the point in
marketing then? 25 dollars for a work of IF is a con anyway, let's be
honest then if you want to be like this! 10 dollars perhaps is fine for
a glorified text parser with a graphical UI that I can't even se, will
probably pay the same price for etc, etc. Text adventures will never be
viable in todays market, people need to either get used to it and
accept it, or waste valuable time. There! said what I think.
James Jolley
Try telling Conrad! Seems, again, that the select cabal get free reign
to think what they want, while others get shot down in flames for
having a viewpoint.
Conrad
>
> What is it with some folk here? If people don't let authors know that
> they're not interested in buying they're product, what's the point in
> marketing then?
You can be critical of David, but I can't be critical of you?
> 25 dollars for a work of IF is a con anyway, let's be
> honest then if you want to be like this! 10 dollars perhaps is fine for
> a glorified text parser with a graphical UI that I can't even se, will
> probably pay the same price for etc, etc. Text adventures will never be
> viable in todays market, people need to either get used to it and
> accept it, or waste valuable time.
If you came out with a product I didn't think was worth it, James, I'd
either buy it or I wouldn't. I wouldn't try to haggle you down
publically, or blame you that you're asking too much, or proclaim that
your enterprise is doomed to failure.
David had a lot of people working on that game, and the reason they
worked on it was that he paid them. And he paid them on the theory
that people would be interested in buying the thing. And the benefit
to the community, besides the new game itself, is that people have
been paid to work as IF authors again.
There's only one reason I can think of for a person to get upset about
this, and that would be that they want it and don't want to pay the
price. Feel entitled to it.
> There! said what I think.
Bully for you!
Conrad.
ps- Re: the secret cabal who are allowed to speak their mind -- John
Ross is a member. I can get you an application if you like...
candidates are selected on how they deal with opposing viewpoints.
James Jolley
Lol yes that's obvious, considering that they *don't* deal with them. Ah well
James Jolley
On 2009-06-15 14:22:23 +0100, Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> said:
> On Jun 15, 7:52�am, James Jolley <jrjol...@me.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is it with some folk here? If people don't let authors know that
>> they're not interested in buying they're product, what's the point in
>> marketing then?
>
> You can be critical of David, but I can't be critical of you?
When did I say that David is the problem? Again, for a community that
likes reading so much you obviously can't yourself. After all, many
have had concerns about textfire being viable.
>
>> 25 dollars for a work of IF is a con anyway, let's be
>> honest then if you want to be like this! 10 dollars perhaps is fine for
>> a glorified text parser with a graphical UI that I can't even se, will
>> probably pay the same price for etc, etc. Text adventures will never be
>> viable in todays market, people need to either get used to it and
>> accept it, or waste valuable time.
>
> If you came out with a product I didn't think was worth it, James, I'd
> either buy it or I wouldn't. I wouldn't try to haggle you down
> publically, or blame you that you're asking too much, or proclaim that
> your enterprise is doomed to failure.
Good for you. It's you're loss. If more people admitted that there are
people prepared to con you out of money then we'd not be in a mess.
Also, it's a person's right to question, either deal with that or move
on. Finally, i've never said it'll fale as a business but how can it
truly succeed when they're is so much free or lower cost alternatives.
>
> David had a lot of people working on that game, and the reason they
> worked on it was that he paid them. And he paid them on the theory
> that people would be interested in buying the thing. And the benefit
> to the community, besides the new game itself, is that people have
> been paid to work as IF authors again.
We'll see how well it does. Marketing at pre-teens at that price isn't
exactly smart. as other's have said, people want Wii's and internet
type things.
>
> There's only one reason I can think of for a person to get upset about
> this, and that would be that they want it and don't want to pay the
> price. Feel entitled to it.
I don't actually. I'd pay a tenner for it at most, not 25 plus. Really,
we'll all sit back and say that it's alright to rob the verry community
that provides the tools. I wonder how many would be so smug if Inform
had been charged for?
Conrad
> > I wouldn't try to haggle you down
> > publically, or blame you that you're asking too much, or proclaim that
> > your enterprise is doomed to failure.
>
> Good for you. It's you're loss. If more people admitted that there are
> people prepared to con you out of money then we'd not be in a mess.
A con game, a confidence game, is when someone wins your trust and
cheats you. Do you honestly think this is what's happening with
TextFyre?
> Also, it's a person's right to question, either deal with that or move
> on.
I will.
> Finally, i've never said it'll fale as a business but how can it
> truly succeed when they're is so much free or lower cost alternatives.
So, you've never said it would fail ... you just want to know how it
can possibly succeed.
> Really,
> we'll all sit back and say that it's alright to rob the verry community
> that provides the tools.
Robbery is stealing by force or threat. Do you honestly believe that
Textfyre has stolen anything?
> I wonder how many would be so smug if Inform had been charged for?
Isn't it part of the Inform license that people can use it freely to
make commercial games?
I thought it was...
Conrad.
James Jolley
> On Jun 15, 10:48�am, James Jolley <jrjol...@me.com> wrote:
>
>>> I wouldn't try to haggle you down
>>> publically, or blame you that you're asking too much, or proclaim that
>>> your enterprise is doomed to failure.
>>
>> Good for you. It's you're loss. If more people admitted that there are
>> people prepared to con you out of money then we'd not be in a mess.
>
> A con game, a confidence game, is when someone wins your trust and
> cheats you. Do you honestly think this is what's happening with
> TextFyre?
I think it comes to something when someone can't even have a viewpoint
regarding the price of a game. I personally do think that the price is
too high, what's wrong with that?
>
>> Also, it's a person's right to question, either deal with that or move
>> on.
>
> I will.
> You're not though are you? Shooting people down as per usual I see,
> nothing changes.
>
>> Finally, i've never said it'll fale as a business but how can it
>> truly succeed when they're is so much free or lower cost alternatives.
>
> So, you've never said it would fail ... you just want to know how it
> can possibly succeed.
Interesting, just because I have reservations about how viable a
company is means it'll succeed? Pathetic! It'll succeed if people are
stupid enough to pay 20 plus dollars for a text game yes.
>
>> Really,
>> we'll all sit back and say that it's alright to rob the verry community
>> that provides the tools.
>
> Robbery is stealing by force or threat. Do you honestly believe that
> Textfyre has stolen anything?
Do you know what an expression is? Thought not! Robbing the community
is exactly what is happening at that price. Look, for that sort of
money I could buy a video game. Peter had it right when he argues this.
Notice you never took him to task eh?
>
>> I wonder how many would be so smug if Inform had been charged for?
>
> Isn't it part of the Inform license that people can use it freely to
> make commercial games?
>
> I thought it was...
>
>
> Conrad.
It's part of the licence yes but again I was asking a general question.
If Inform had been charged for, you can bet people would have been more
prepared to pay for the games written in it, simply because we'd not
really know what the system included unless we'd paid for it ourselves
if that makes any sense.
Conrad
> > A con game, a confidence game, is when someone wins your trust and
> > cheats you. Do you honestly think this is what's happening with
> > TextFyre?
>
> I think it comes to something when someone can't even have a viewpoint
> regarding the price of a game. I personally do think that the price is
> too high, what's wrong with that?
Nothing at all. But there are a *lot* of things in this world that
are too much for *me* to buy. That doesn't make the sellers con-men.
> > Robbery is stealing by force or threat. Do you honestly believe that
> > Textfyre has stolen anything?
>
> Do you know what an expression is? Thought not! Robbing the community
> is exactly what is happening at that price. Look, for that sort of
> money I could buy a video game.
James, I'm having real trouble locking in on what you're saying.
"Robbing" is just an expression, which means I shouldn't take it
seriously; but then you say it's exactly what's happening at that
price.
If you'd rather have a video game, buy a video game. If you'd rather
have a new set of shoes, buy that. Robberies and cons are hostile
acts, of force and deception; and when people use those kinds of
images, it's usually to convey how they feel about what's going on.
But I don't see how Textfyre is doing anything deceptive or forcible.
So it's a mystery to me why you're upset.
> Peter had it right when he argues this.
> Notice you never took him to task eh?
I was busy.
> It's part of the licence yes but again I was asking a general question.
> If Inform had been charged for, you can bet people would have been more
> prepared to pay for the games written in it, simply because we'd not
> really know what the system included unless we'd paid for it ourselves
> if that makes any sense.
If that were true, wouldn't people have been purchasing games written
in Hugo and Adrift?
Conrad.
James Jolley
I didn't realise hugo wasn't free. Never actually tried the system.
Nevermind though, this entire thread is a waste of time as the debate
is over. Seems like what you say goes. Nevermind
S. John Ross
> David had a lot of people working on that game, and the reason they
> worked on it was that he paid them.
I do hope that's true, or at the very least they got a substantial
advance against royalties.
Heiko Nock
> What is it with some folk here? If people don't let authors know that
> they're not interested in buying they're product, what's the point in
> marketing then? 25 dollars for a work of IF is a con anyway, let's be
> honest then if you want to be like this!
Yes, let's be honest. In what way is that a con?
--
"Wer n�mlich einen fahren l��t, der nicht fahren kann, mu� k�rperlich wie
rechtlich einem ungewissen Ausgang der Fahrt entgegensehen und gewisse
Unbilden, wie einem im Weg stehenden Pfahl, in Kauf nehmen."
-- AG K�ln, Urteil vom 20. Juni 1985 (JuS 1986, Heft 10 S.IX)
Jim Aikin
>
> David had a lot of people working on that game, and the reason they
> worked on it was that he paid them.
Or indicated that he would pay them when he had a cash flow. I did a few
hours of testing on it, and I haven't yet been paid. But that was my
understanding up front -- that I wouldn't be paid until there was money
coming in.
I'm not complaining, I'm just saying, David's business plan has a lot of
factors to take into account. The asking price for the game is likely to
seem high to r.*.i-f regulars, simply because we're used to getting our
games for free. Whether it will seem high to the potential buyers in his
primary market is not a question any of us here can answer.
--JA
James Jolley
At least we have an explanation. thanks Jim. After all, you're more in
the know than most of us, working with kids and knowing what they would
appreciate.
I'm looking forward to a review of the work though, same as anything. I
never buy things without looking into them first.
Best
-James-
Peter Pears
> seem high to r.*.i-f regulars, simply because we're used to getting our
> games for free. Whether it will seem high to the potential buyers in his
> primary market is not a question any of us here can answer.
>
> --JA
True, I didn't take that into account. However, that also means that
my arguments were based on the assumption that pretty much every
adventure game lover was your audience. I had missed that you had a
primary market (I tend to disregard "game for kids!" signs on IF,
because it doesn't mean it will be a bad or dumb game - often, it's
quite the opposite), and considering that experiments in classrooms
have had positive results, and that, if this enterprise is sucessfull,
it will spread IF to the new generation... then it's only a matter of
whether the parents are willing to pay that much. Considering the
alternative is pretty much FPSes and RPGs, a consciencious parent
might actually think it over. Teach your kid to get well acquainted
with reading and typing and problem-solving, while enjoying an
interesting story.
When I look at it like this, it doesn't seem all that expensive
anymore.
And realizing that we regulars are *not* your primary market also
makes me realize what it meant for you to offer a discount to us.
Which is to say, it meant a lot. Thank you.
Mike Snyder
news:79ndccF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I didn't realise hugo wasn't free. Never actually tried the system.
Hugo is free. I think it always has been. The only game written with Hugo
that isn't is -- I think -- Future Boy! by Kent Tessman (creator of Hugo).
Some of Robb Sherwin's games may also have optional feelies or premium
editions for sale -- I forget which.
---- Mike.
S. John Ross
> it will spread IF to the new generation... then it's only a matter of
> whether the parents are willing to pay that much.
Or the teachers.
> Considering the
> alternative is pretty much FPSes and RPGs, a consciencious parent
> might actually think it over. Teach your kid to get well acquainted
> with reading and typing and problem-solving, while enjoying an
> interesting story.
The biggest risk, IMO, is that parents and teachers themselves will
potentially be anti-salesmen. "Here, young person! Enjoy this
wholesome and educational text game!" would have sent me screaming to
the hills as a kid, desperate to play something unwholesome and un-
educational :) Hopefully the writing is sufficiently subversive to
convince the kids they're getting away with something by playing it :)
Peter Pears
> > it will spread IF to the new generation... then it's only a matter of
> > whether the parents are willing to pay that much.
>
> Or the teachers.
Heh. I wish I had a teacher who bought games for me and my whole class
to pirate.
Sorry, did I say pirate? I meant illegally copy onto a CD and take it
home, just like all my other classmates will. :)
> > Considering the
> > alternative is pretty much FPSes and RPGs, a consciencious parent
> > might actually think it over. Teach your kid to get well acquainted
> > with reading and typing and problem-solving, while enjoying an
> > interesting story.
>
> The biggest risk, IMO, is that parents and teachers themselves will
> potentially be anti-salesmen. "Here, young person! Enjoy this
> wholesome and educational text game!" would have sent me screaming to
> the hills as a kid, desperate to play something unwholesome and un-
> educational :) Hopefully the writing is sufficiently subversive to
> convince the kids they're getting away with something by playing it :)
Oh, how true. Still, I take those sucessfull experiments with IF in
the classroom to prove that it's possible to get them interested while
not shoving the edu-stuff down their throats.
Anyway, when I was a kid, parents were always a bit suspicious of edu-
tainment, thought it just encouraged the kid to stay alone and stuff.
Maybe there's enough of that suspicion left not just to go "There you
go, young man, educate yourself. Make us proud."
Or maybe the parents will end up playing the game themselves.That's
also a good thing. :D
Hans Friar
> Jobs
>
> Angel Investor
> We are seeking one or more accredited investors to help us launch the
> company later this year. Your funds will be used to hire content
> creators, management, marketing consultants, and pay for advertising
> including a new professional website. Your business expertise and
> advice will also be very welcome.
>
> So investor is an actual job position in your company? I can see why
> you need a new website.
You must not read the Textfyre blog religiously. If you did you would see
the pattern. The pathos is the pretension that this is a Professional
Business run by a Professional Business Man. Analyzing and researching the
business realities with open eyes and a clear mind. Look at the posts from
two or three years ago about the Team Process that would create an IF
assembly line to stamp out games like so many widgets. An amazing Process
indeed that allows ten professionals (is unpaid professional an oxymoron?)
to produce two games in just three years. The poor amateur working alone
might create only two games in this time. Perhaps ISO 9001 certification
will help. It is small consolation that the games do look like something a
corporation would create, blatant Harry Potter ripoffs with all the
inspiration of fanfic by committee.
Read also about the extensive Market Research and Investor Networking. The
sad pattern repeats itself. A Professional Business Man with open eyes and
a clear mind would not miss the most glaring recommendation of any market
study, Be in any business other than Text Adventures, any business at all.
Over and over we see reports of promising investor meetings, but always in
the future. The delusion is most obvious in the post about the television
executive who mentioned his nostalgia for Zork in an interview. Have your
people call my people, Dave.
Conrad
Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
the profile of interactive fiction. Which most people currently have
never heard of. And some of those people would make dedicated players
and writers.
C.
James Jolley
IF is IF. I don't see what raising the profile will actually achieve.
It'd be nice obviously, but a text game is a text game. Many people
just want games with graphics and that's how it is really. We can't
expect the world to love IF as much as we like it.
Andrew Plotkin
> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
> Textfyre starting up
We have? From who?
...Let's take it for granted that Jacek is not jealous of anybody,
merely happy to have a new topic.
> I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested in Chicago Dave
> being commercially successful, since it would raise the profile of
> interactive fiction.
Well, I am. I thought that was obvious.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
James Jolley
> In rec.arts.int-fiction, Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
>> Textfyre starting up
>
> We have? From who?
>
> ...Let's take it for granted that Jacek is not jealous of anybody,
> merely happy to have a new topic.
>
>> I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested in Chicago Dave
>> being commercially successful, since it would raise the profile of
>> interactive fiction.
>
> Well, I am. I thought that was obvious.
>
> --Z
I think he wants us to jump up and down or do the splits perhaps. Not
sure really. I'm happy for dave, just not prepared to pay the price
he's asking. As has been pointed out by others, he's aiming his works
at a different market and mine's not it. Tough.
Conrad
>
> I think he wants us to jump up and down or do the splits perhaps. Not
> sure really. I'm happy for dave, just not prepared to pay the price
> he's asking. As has been pointed out by others, he's aiming his works
> at a different market and mine's not it. Tough.
That post wasn't meant as a criticism of you, James.
Maybe I'm misreading the general vibe. It's been known to happen. It
does seem that at least some of the posts have been hoping for the
worst for Dave's enterprise. But my larger point is that, by
promoting his own text games, Dave will inevitably be promoting
interactive fiction. People will hear about it through him.
Conrad
Jim Aikin
> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
> Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
> in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
> the profile of interactive fiction.
I'm _very_ interested in that. I hope he's enormously successful,
becomes filthy rich, and offers me a contract to write a new game for
commercial distribution.
I've been avoiding this thread, but I suspect most of the carping is
coming from Jacek Pudlo (posting under one name or another).
There may also be a faction that feels IF should be free-free-free.
Don't get me wrong; I'm all in favor of free stuff! I just downloaded
GIMP and Ren'Py, so you won't catch me complaining about free. But the
existence of GIMP does _not_ mean that Adobe is a bunch of slime-sucking
cretins because they want money for Photoshop. They pay their
programmers, and the money has to come from somewhere!
There's room for both distribution models in the world, and it's
entirely up to you whether to choose to support freeware or
commercialware, or both.
--JA
Adam Thornton
>Conrad wrote:
>> Even considering the narrow-minded jealousy we've seen in reaction to
>> Textfyre starting up, I'm surprised people aren't selfishly interested
>> in Chicago Dave being commercially successful, since it would raise
>> the profile of interactive fiction.
>
>I'm _very_ interested in that. I hope he's enormously successful,
>becomes filthy rich, and offers me a contract to write a new game for
>commercial distribution.
Me too.
I have never felt that Textfyre was a *good* bet from a commercial
standpoint, but I would dearly love to be wrong. Although I don't
really want a contract for a game--I have too much work in my day job to
try to write anything towards a deadline, and I'm SURE he can't pay
quit-my-day-job enough. But I do hope that he strikes it rich.
Adam
Conrad
>
> IF is IF. I don't see what raising the profile will actually achieve.
> It'd be nice obviously, but a text game is a text game. Many people
> just want games with graphics and that's how it is really. We can't
> expect the world to love IF as much as we like it.
Well, I was on-and-off wishing there were text games, and wishing I
had the programming smarts to write one myself, for a good ten or
fifteen years. And I'd talk about it with people.
Finally, I mentioned it to someone who mentioned it to someone who had
heard about Inform 7.
But that's ten years I lost out on. And I have no doubt there are
others like me, who'd like to get into text games, but have no idea
they're still around; and still others who have had no exposure to
them, but would enjoy them once they tried them.
How'd you guys first find out about r*if and the text game community?
Word of mouth? I expect there's more IF enthusiasts who don't know
about us than that know about us.
I say, better than nay-saying Dave, better than the sad head-shaking,
we'd do better to start telling people about his cool new game.
Conrad.
Peter Pears
> Word of mouth? I expect there's more IF enthusiasts who don't know
> about us than that know about us.
>
> I say, better than nay-saying Dave, better than the sad head-shaking,
> we'd do better to start telling people about his cool new game.
>
> Conrad.
In which case, Textfyre's bet on children-aimed products might be the
best way to go. Teenagers are less likely to play IF - for many
reasons (not the least of them being "look cool around my friends"),
they are more likely to play FPSs, RPGs and MMO games. Sometimes
purely strategical games, maybe. The average teen doesn't even care
much for adventure games, though thankfully those are still being
churned out (varying degrees of success, yeah, but still). And adults
who do know about IF... well, there's a huge chance that, if they
still care about it at all, they'll have wondered into the ifarchive
*at least* by now.
So in this light, it does seem obvious that the way to go is to
present it to the younger market. Hey, I've seen a 4 year old chide
his 9 year old brother for being a bore at a piano recital. The
brothen kept going "This is a bore!", and the younger kid kept going
"You're the bore! Shut up!". And you could tell it wasn't just
brotherly automatic contradiction, he was seriously muffled at his
older brother's reaction. That reminded me of something I'd forgot -
teenagers, or pre-teenagers, have their tastes defined by social
interaction as much as their actual tastes. They may even learn to
dislike something just for the social interaction it may gain them.
But if you go earlier - just a bit earlier, or maybe even simultaneous
- then you can actually catch them while their interests are still
honest.
My point: the IF's community is getting old. This might bring in the
new players. The genre has done remarkably well, and the IF
development tools have helped it span a second generation of IFers -
but that's second generation is relatively small, and very divided,
which is good for development but not much so for newcomers wanting to
try out the genre and finding numerous games made with different
interpreters needing different VMs, or with different rules or design.
A newcomer playing Zork might well be turned off IF for life, if that
newcomer doesn't like the cruelty and assumes all IF will be like
that. If we don't start catering to the next generation, then IF might
well be unjustly condoned and left to rot as "that old boring stuff
our dads and grandpas used to play before they had 3D cards".
I hope I made sense, it's getting late and I really have to go to bed.
Just for the record, in case my posts about the price left any doubts
on the matter: I heartily approve this enterprise, and have myself
already purchased my (discounted) pre-order of both games. I just wish
it had feelies! :D
And PS - as regards true newcomers of a more mature age, I have found
indeed that many non-typical-gamers are very attracted to the idea,
whereas gamers don't much care for it. Hey, my girlfriend is barely a
gamer, being a Tomb Raider-Sims-Pharaoh-Caesar exclusive, but that was
enough experience with these alternate genres not to care much for IF.
Different mindsets, I suppose - and people with that mindset don't
play much, because they haven't found their genre yet. As for me, I've
tried to convert a few, but in my case the language barrier's an issue
- I'd need a Portuguese extension for I7, or something of the sort.
S. John Ross
> And adults
> who do know about IF... well, there's a huge chance that, if they
> still care about it at all, they'll have wondered into the ifarchive
> *at least* by now.
That might not have went well if it happened before the ifarchive went
and got speedy. These days the archive is kickass, but on at least
three occasions prior to me finally settling in to taking an interest
in the modern state of IF, I remember _attempting_ to wander into the
archive and being rebuffed by 150-second-per-page loading times :
( [well, maybe not 150 but it sure felt like it, so I bailed, forgot
it for a year or whatever, came back, same thing happened ...] I had
been inspired to try by various specific events (including buying one
of the Activision collections).
No longer an issue (and even less so with groovy stuff like IFDB to be
found), but I do wonder if there were other folks, more-or-less in my
situation, who _didn't_ bother coming back the fourth time.
Dan Sanderson
> ...
> But if you go earlier - just a bit earlier, or maybe even simultaneous
> - then you can actually catch them while their interests are still
> honest.
FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
drawing the map for Lost Pig). I'll write it myself if I have to. We
even started writing a game together in I7, but I'm still new at it and
she got bored waiting for me to read the docs.
My 3-year-old had lots of ideas for getting the piece of paper from the
crack, though not many that would work in the game.
-- Dan
Emily Boegheim
> FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
> Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
> IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
> drawing the map for Lost Pig).
Try The Sleeping Princess:
http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=bxio01ferbyxr4rk
It's a polished, enjoyable game, and it was written specifically for
kids, so the language and puzzles are simple.
You might also want to have a look at this IFDB poll, "Games suitable for
children":
http://ifdb.tads.org/poll?id=z9shyw6mdia3jdud
Emily
S. John Ross
> FWIW, I played Lost Pig with my 5-year-old last week, and she loved it.
> Now I'm looking for other age-appropriate, easy and well-implemented
> IF, maybe something she can play on her own (she can read, and enjoyed
> drawing the map for Lost Pig).
Stott's "Dragon Adventure" is a hoot and a half ... it's aimed at
slightly older kids (9+), but if yours is precocious she might be able
to handle it just fine on her own.
There's a long texty intro that I wish I could get my hands on to trim
it down, but apart from that it's super kid-friendly, and has some
great imagery and fun scenes (like the insane bicycle ride ...)
And yeah, like Emily Boegheim said ... IFDB poll, good :)
James Jolley
In theory, but I wonder how many people will play other works. It's
similar to how casual gamers work. They play the odd one and that's it.
IF is fine as it is anyway, we have a good community, brilliant
creation tools and new people are coming around all the time.
James Jolley
I first found IF when I was a kid in school. Zork was my first game and
I actually found it the most irritating waste of time even then. I
played about with a few infocom ones at that time, liked a few,
disliked many of them because of the lack of real plot. Then I left IF
for a bit, got into video gaming, still am into that but decided to
look around at the tools to write my own. Went to uni, got into IF
again there because I got my first windows computer at that time.
Peter Pears
That's the thing about IF, though. In general (the exception being
some SpeedIF games), an IF game isn't a casual game, and it takes
getting into. That's why IF isn't much good in the "casual gamers"
department - unless it manages to evolve into a non-casual experience
after a casual acquaintance, it just won't work. It consumes too much
brainpower in the head of a person who just wants a quick distraction.
Hopefully, the possibilities of IF will bring a gamer back, just like
you can start browsing in a bookstore, find yourself turning pages at
a fast pace, buy the book, and them come back for more of the same
author.
But yeah, it's just theory. :)
James Jolley
Good post, agree with it entirely. Is it now time for flags to be
waved? Hey, perhaps if you called me James instead of Jolley now and
again we'd get on better. Seriously, good post. i'm interested now in
how others will view what you've said regarding getting people into IF.
From my view, we have a lot of good story-based IF and that's a start.
When Emily finally releases her conversation system, i'd like to do
something with that. Like you said, people will find they're own style
of IF that they like.
Best
-James
James Jolley
I see you're points. I'm guessing that much of the conversational IF
will be alright for casuals though. I know my partner doesn't like IF
at all, she'd rather muck about on playstation home and play the
bowling and pool on that. Each to there own i guess.
Otto Grimwald
> I have never felt that Textfyre was a *good* bet from a commercial
> standpoint, but I would dearly love to be wrong. Although I don't
/.../
> quit-my-day-job enough. But I do hope that he strikes it rich.
me too, so he could maybe hire someone to make it truely multiplateform,
including handhelds and such.
Richard Bos
Yeah, but how many people do _that_? Look at your neighbours: how many
of them have read more than one book by Joyce? Stross? Van Gulik? Good
literature, including good genre literature, simply _is not popular_,
and my theory is that the reason is the very same one you describe
above: it takes too much brainspace. Dan Brown and J.K. Rowling, yes,
they sell. The reason is obvious.
Richard
Conrad
Very often, famous writers were in their day immensely popular.
Dickens, for example, who I usually can't stand, really had the
English-speaking world hooked on his series. These days, we find him
too preachy, and too difficult to read; but in his time, people went
to church far more often, and apparently enjoyed the sermonizing,
because it affirmed what they knew was true. Also, he would be read
aloud to the family, usually by the father, and therefore the long
winding sentences that we have trouble plowing through silently were
part of the special effects by which he enraptured audiences.
And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
so on. So there is interpretive brain-work going on; it's just within
the fictive fantasy rather than about its mode of delivery.
For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
to the dictionary if you want to go.
(An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
Conrad.
ps - Although, if anyone asks, the reason _Lair of the CyberCow_
placed 28th out of 35 last year is because it was above you all.
Yeah.
Jerome West
> ps - Although, if anyone asks, the reason _Lair of the CyberCow_
> placed 28th out of 35 last year is because it was above you all.
> Yeah.
I must admit I have yet to try it. I could tell from the title it was
likely to be a little too high-brow for my simple tastes.
Peter Pears
Thankfully, in our case, we don't have to get them hooked to Short,
Plotkin, Reed, Aikin or Ingold - it's good enough that we spark the
interest of "reading". :)
Richard Bos
> On Jun 22, 8:11=A0am, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> > Yeah, but how many people do _that_? Look at your
> > neighbours: how many of them have read more than
> > one book by Joyce? Stross? Van Gulik? Good literature,
> > including good genre literature, simply _is not popular_,
> > and my theory is that the reason is the very same one
> > you describe above: it takes too much brainspace. Dan
> > Brown and J.K. Rowling, yes, they sell. The reason is
> > obvious.
>
> Very often, famous writers were in their day immensely popular.
> Dickens, for example, who I usually can't stand, really had the
> English-speaking world hooked on his series. These days, we find him
> too preachy, and too difficult to read; but in his time, people went
> to church far more often, and apparently enjoyed the sermonizing,
> because it affirmed what they knew was true.
I think the latter part is also important, at least in Dickens' case.
Yes, he was preachy; no, I can't stand him, either; but back then, what
he wrote _had_ to be written. We find him maudlin, for a good deal
because we can't imagine circumstances of small children being quite as
bad as he described them. But they were, and worse. In the factories, a
lot worse. And his book s got attention for their plight. That we
cannot, now, take his books seriously is for a not inconsiderable part
thanks to his own success.
> And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
> time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
> so on.
Do they? I've never seen much evidence of that.
> For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
> writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
> in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
> defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
> to the dictionary if you want to go.
True, but how many people, outside this newsgroup and any writing
classes you may have had, do you know who have read "Arthur Gordon Pym"?
(I haven't, but that's only because I've not found it in the bookshops
in this country.) Usually, it's The Raven, The Bells, Dr. Tarr and Prof.
Fether, one or two more of his macabrities, and that's it. I challenge
you to find a dozen among your ordinary neighbours and colleagues who
have even heard of Hans Pfaall.
> (An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
> she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
> Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
> was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
Good for her. But I bet you people like her are pretty rare.
Richard
Conrad
>
> I think the latter part is also important, at least in Dickens' case.
> Yes, he was preachy; no, I can't stand him, either; but back then, what
> he wrote _had_ to be written. We find him maudlin, for a good deal
> because we can't imagine circumstances of small children being quite as
> bad as he described them. But they were, and worse. In the factories, a
> lot worse. And his book s got attention for their plight. That we
> cannot, now, take his books seriously is for a not inconsiderable part
> thanks to his own success.
Could be. I know the cleanup of labor conditions during the
industrial revolution were attributed to the muckrakers; I don't know
how much Dickens is put in that category. (I thought he was
earlier.) But we also don't take him seriously because the villians
are ee-vil -- Snidely-Whiplash-evil -- and the good guys are sweet and
innocent and good, like the good that comes in lemon meringue pie.
Years of morally-ambiguous heros have trained us to make fine moral
distictions, and without fine moral distinctions to make that mental
equipment sits idling, getting bored.
> > And people who are into Hairy Potter really do spend quite a bit of
> > time thinking about the logic of that world -- how sorcery works, and
> > so on.
>
> Do they? I've never seen much evidence of that.
Have you talked to them about it?
It's possible I just have smarter friends; but I think it's more
likely you refuse to talk to H.P. fans. But surely you remember the
detailed, nuanced conversations you had as a kid about the physics of
Star Trek, or Dr. Who time travel anti-paradoxes, or whatever you were
into. The nature of fandom doesn't change; a large part of what makes
these stories successful are their ability to capture and direct a
person's imagination. And a person's intelligence always works for
their imagination.
> > For every impenetrable writer, for every Joyce, you'll find a Poe:
> > writers with great artistry who use their skills to draw their readers
> > in. And Poe uses some pretty impossible words. But he usually
> > defines them by context -- you can gist them -- and you're only sent
> > to the dictionary if you want to go.
>
> True, but how many people, outside this newsgroup and any writing
> classes you may have had, do you know who have read "Arthur Gordon Pym"?
> (I haven't, but that's only because I've not found it in the bookshops
> in this country.) Usually, it's The Raven, The Bells, Dr. Tarr and Prof.
> Fether, one or two more of his macabrities, and that's it. I challenge
> you to find a dozen among your ordinary neighbours and colleagues who
> have even heard of Hans Pfaall.
Now you're moving the goalpost. Certainly some of Poe's work will be
more popular than the rest; some of any writer's work is more popular
than the rest. Or any artist's work. That's statistics at work. It
doesn't mean people are unredeemably stupid, that the culture doesn't
value the artist or the medium, or that people no longer read.
And I haven't polled my friends about Pym, but I'd expect about half
or a third of them have read it. I have smart friends, almost
exclusively, and a proprotion of them are book-smart types. If you
want to read _Pym_, you can download it for free from Project
Gutenburg. The link is:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2149/2149-8.txt
...or you probably can get it from your local library.
> > (An old good friend of mine said she just read a book by Tom Wolfe --
> > she'd forgotten the title -- and enjoyed it. Then she went back to
> > Danielle Steele, which is her usual fare. And she said, "Yeah... it
> > was pretty painful. After reading a *real* writer, I mean.")
>
> Good for her. But I bet you people like her are pretty rare.
I'm inclined to agree, her being a dear friend of mine. But insofar
as she reads Wolfe and enjoys it -- well, there are enough such people
that he manages to stay in business.
In any case, I've been arguing on my blog that the success of bad pulp
writing should be seen as good news for IF, not bad. These writers
meet the minimal standards for writing and they feed the emotional
needs of their readers.
And those minimal standards, and that emotional logic, can be met by
formula. You can go beyond the formula if you want, but the formula
allows you to hit the minimal standards reliably. That's been true
for trashy romance novels and for science fiction; surely it can be
true for IF.
I agree with you, that IF with sparkly pictures and some sound effects
will have a better chance to hit bigger populations, because it raises
the apparent production value of the work. But the production value
has to overall meet the minimum standards; sparkly pictures will not
redeem a work with bad writing and poor grammar.
Conrad.
ps - for more about the "minimal standards" argument, go to --
http://onewetsneaker.wordpress.com/tag/pulp/
There's other stuff on there that's quasi-IF related, like an ebook
about writing murder mysteries that talks quite a bit about puzzley
writing that appeals to the intelligence. I may try to extract IF-
relevant techniques from that some time, but for now I just put the
ebook up.
C.
Conrad
> want to read _Pym_, you can download it for free from Project
> Gutenburg. The link is:
>
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2149/2149-8.txt
>
> ...or you probably can get it from your local library.
I guess the key word in your complain is "in this country," and I
don't know where you are. However, I Lulu-ized the Project Gutenburg
text, which means you can now buy a copy (if Lulu likes the country
you live in), for $8.78 + shipping. For me, shipping is 5.85, for a
$14.63 total, if I'm doing my math right.
(That's at cost. I don't make anything off this.)
http://www.lulu.com/content/7321256
If you can't get Lulu to ship it to you and you badly want a copy,
write me off-list and I'll set something up for you.
If you don't want a copy at all, and you just picked it as a
rhetorical example, that's cool too; I'm experimenting with Lulu
lately, and wanted to try making a public, orderable project, to see
how their system works.
Conrad.
S. John Ross
> ps - for more about the "minimal standards" argument, go to --
>
> http://onewetsneaker.wordpress.com/tag/pulp/
Hm. It's an interesting blog, but man, check out the snoot on that
snootiness.
Conrad
Too many lizards?
Andrew Plotkin
> I?m seriously angry with the company ?Textfyre? and companies that
> behave like them.
Sure you are.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Conrad
> people off from purchasing these type of games because they won't want
> to make the mistake of buying yet another "Jack Toresal and the secret
> letter."
Jacek, when was the last time you got laid or made money off trolling?
C.
S. John Ross
> [...] they won't want
> to make the mistake of buying yet another "Jack Toresal and the secret
> letter."
I really think the title's too long to become proverbial.
But shouldn't the bizarre fake rants against the game wait until
_after_ it's out?
S. John Ross
> Jacek, when was the last time you got laid or made money off trolling?
Whoever's responsible, they've also posted the same thing at IFDB
under a fresh sockpuppet account :(
S. John Ross
As long as you're reporting from the future, could you give us some
lotto results, or stock tips, or something useful?
> They are setting
> themselves up for a big fall. [...] they are shooting themselves in the foot.
If that turns out to be true, it'll be a self-correcting problem.
> [...] into the market without submitting it for review to give
> customers a chance to make an educated decision before parting with
> their money,
TextFyre guy has already said that there will be at least one demo
version, and maybe more.
Jesse McGrew
> lol, yes I have withdrawn my review and I am feeling sympathetic. Why?
Because it was an obvious fraud, and the comments on the review had
already pointed that out.
vw
S. John Ross
> > lol, yes I have withdrawn my review and I am feeling sympathetic. Why?
>
> Because it was an obvious fraud, and the comments on the review had
> already pointed that out.
If you taunt future man, you might NEVER get a rocket car! Dude.
S. John Ross
> I shan't let you drive MY rocket car until YOU make the game of your
> dreams.
Same thing I tell everyone: Fly From Evil will be done when it's done,
and the ONLY promise I'm making is that I won't hurry.