Jesus of Nazareth and Ninja II
dun...@yahoo.com
previous games I have authored (see: Westfront PC and HLA Adventure for
examples). Jesus of Nazareth was entered into the 2005 IF Comp on the
hopes that it would be blasphemous, but also somewhat funny (Jesus has
hit points? SWEEEEET!). Yes, it has some bugs (noticed after I entered
it into the competition, but after the final, so I was stuck in that
regard).
And Ninja II was basically just Ninja with a few extras. I wanted it to
be bad, and hey, I succeeded.
Paul
Bob
dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> And Ninja II was basically just Ninja with a few extras. I wanted it to
> be bad, and hey, I succeeded.
>
> Paul
Paul,
I am very sorry, but I think you will _always_ succeed in doing
something badly. That's why I feel sorry for the poor HIV/AIDS people
you will counsel. Paul, you promised you won't post in the group
anymore. Now you promise not to make IF anymore. I wish I could
believe...
Bob
P.S. I'm not a hostile person, but you really annoy me with your
self-advertisement, your talk about yourself, your defense of your
"work" and even with your IF-Comp intro Ninja II which should have been
disqualified for not being previously unreleased, since it's just Ninja
with an extra dragon.
Stu George
>dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> And Ninja II was basically just Ninja with a few extras. I wanted it to
> be bad, and hey, I succeeded.
>
> Paul
What I dont understand is why someone would enter something so bad
into the competition? The same thing goes for the other purposefully
bad entries...
what point do they serve? I feel it kinda denigrates the competition.
or is it designed to make mediocre games look better than they are
by virtue of unbalancing the competitive ratings?
- Stu : Email via http://public.xdi.org/=stu
dwh...@gmail.com
best Panks is capable of.
Yuki
>into the competition?
It's not an intentionally bad entry. He's just posting this in an
attempt to save face.
Mark J. Tilford
>
>
> He didn't intend it to be purposefully bad. Sad but true, this is the
> best Panks is capable of.
>
Panks says lots of things; Ninja 1.30 got slammed last year, and this
version was hardly different. I have no idea what his goals were.
xorax, OTOH, was trying to get second-from bottom last year, and was
probably trying to do the same again.
>
> Stu George wrote:
>>
>> What I dont understand is why someone would enter something so bad
>> into the competition? The same thing goes for the other purposefully
>> bad entries...
>>
>> what point do they serve? I feel it kinda denigrates the competition.
>> or is it designed to make mediocre games look better than they are
>> by virtue of unbalancing the competitive ratings?
>>
>>
>>
>> - Stu : Email via http://public.xdi.org/=stu
>
--
------------------------
Mark Jeffrey Tilford
til...@ugcs.caltech.edu
dun...@yahoo.com
a fuck to even LOOK at any of the games I have written, why should I
care to pander to your trivial needs?
Paul
dun...@yahoo.com
Paul
dun...@yahoo.com
articles in Dr. Dobb's Journal and Byte.com. If they were bad, or
poorly researched, none of those magazines would have published them.
Paul
James Mitchelhill
<snip>
> What I dont understand is why someone would enter something so bad
> into the competition? The same thing goes for the other purposefully
> bad entries...
>
> what point do they serve? I feel it kinda denigrates the competition.
> or is it designed to make mediocre games look better than they are
> by virtue of unbalancing the competitive ratings?
See, these people entering bad games - load of bloody amateurs. I supect
they are merely lazy. Entering a game that's *imaginitively* bad is a
large amount of work you need to find your awful concept incredibly
funny if you're actually going to bother.
--
James Mitchelhill
ja...@disorderfeed.net
http://disorderfeed.net
Jon Rosebaugh
Don't forget to mention that none of these five articles were ever
published in print. And it's not hard to see why.
* The article at DDJ.com about software piracy is ludicrously
simpleminded. It cites only one source: the Business Software Alliance,
whose business depends on convincing people that piracy is a big
problem. The bulk of the article consists of quoting statistics from a
BSA-sponsored report, then somehow concluding that the solution to
piracy involves corporations switching to releasing shareware and
mandatory copyright classes in schools.
* The article at Byte.com about the Commodore scene isn't completely
accessable without paying money, but the bit I managed to read made no
sense. For example, the first sentence of the second paragraph asserted
that during 1982-1984, the Commodore saw "an overall lack of quality
software", but in the second sentence you laud the quality of the
Commodore's games. Now, so far as I can tell, Byte.com doesn't even HAVE
a printed edition for you to be published in, but I doubt you would have
gotten there with this article if they had one.
* The article in Linux Journal concerning HLA is actually fairly decent.
But it really hasn't much to do with Linux, and it incorporates such
hard-to-swallow gems such as "The best part about HLA is it is a
constantly evolving programming language." As many people can tell you,
too fast a speed of development on a programming language can be just as
harmful as too slow a speed. Moving on.
* Your two LinuxWorld articles seem to have been accepted by the same
sort of people who thought Maureen O'Gara was a good journalist. I
thought about giving a careful analysis of why the articles are
worthless, but the point will have been made to everyone but you by now,
and you don't ever listen anyway.
Plenty of magazines will buy substandard articles to display online
because online space is cheap and it offers another article to display
ads on. Do let us know when you manage to offer something good enough to
actually appear in print without you having to pay _them_ to do it, the
way you do with your "novels".
dun...@yahoo.com
Quite the contrary...I was PAID by Linux Journal $150 for my article on
HLA. I was given a free subscription to Linux Journal for my Linux
articles.
None of my articles are substandard. In fact, Byte.com has very high
acceptance standards, as does Dr. Dobb's Journal.
You are a blatant fucking asshole who likes degrading the works of
other people. Go away.
Paul
dwh...@gmail.com
> Jon,
>
> You are a blatant fucking asshole who likes degrading the works of
> other people. Go away.
>
> Paul
It's comments like that, Panks, that show you up for the idiot you are.
dun...@yahoo.com
opinions.
Paul
dun...@yahoo.com
print...Check the March, June, July, August, September, October,
November and December 2005 issues.
Paul
Adam Myrow
killed my enthusiasm. I had the web interface generate me a random list,
and the first two games it gave me were PTBAD6andoneeighth followed by
Ninja II. Then, looking down the list, and reading the blurbs, I discover
Amissville II, FutureGame (tm), and Jesus of Nazareth. Seeing all these
joke games just gave me the feeling that this competition wasn't worth
judging. I ended up completing 3 games, and getting about halfway through
a fourth. I think there needs to be a rule that forbids deliberately bad
games. I would rather judge a few games where the authors are putting
forth an honest effort then 40 games where the authors are throwing
together some trash in 5 minutes just to irritate judges. This is supposed
to be a competition for the best game, not the worst.
Andrew Plotkin
> All I can say about the load of joke games this year is that it completely
> killed my enthusiasm.
> I would rather judge a few games where the authors are putting forth
> an honest effort then 40 games where the authors are throwing
> together some trash in 5 minutes just to irritate judges. This is
> supposed to be a competition for the best game, not the worst.
There is no practical way to keep bad games out of the competition.[*]
Therefore, you have two options. One: Don't judge the games; wait for
the results and play the top scorers. Two: Don't get irritated at the
bad games; write down a 1 after three minutes and move on.
[* Every year someone suggests two-stage competition voting, or a panel
of pre-screen judges. This amounts to adding a new competition to
solve the problem of the "wrong people" entering the competition.
Which is iffy in several different ways, which is why we never do it
that way.]
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
Adam Myrow
> There is no practical way to keep bad games out of the competition.[*]
Of course not. However, let me try and explain further. What I found
off putting, even insulting, were things like the blurb for
PTBAD6andoneeighth which was full of typos, and brags about all the
spelling errors. Then, there is this line from the GameInfo.txt file for
Amissville II. "In keeping with Santoonie tradition, there is no walk
thru. The game was written for the amusement of it's authors." I think
that games whose readme file or blurb clearly demonstrate that they are bad
just because the author feels like making a bad game are the problem.
Games that are bad because the author has poor writing skills, or are full
of bugs don't bother me as much as what I saw this year. For example,
Stack Overflow from last year was full of bad English, and bugs. However,
it felt like at least the author was trying. Similarly, in 2003, a
terrible AGT game named Curse of Manorland came in 28 out of 30. However,
even though I gave it a 1, and I had to look up the title since it was so
forgettable, it still didn't brag about how bad it was in its documentation,
and I recall the author being genuinely surprised at the poor results.
If we can't disqualify joke games outright, how about a mass refusal to
give them any rating and simply skip them? That is what I will do next
year with the obvious joke games. Since the authors want to try and get a
last place finish, if every judge simply skipped over their games, they
wouldn't place at all.
James Mitchelhill
> All I can say about the load of joke games this year is that it completely
There's always been joke games. I think the first comp was joke game
free, but looking at Comp96, there were two Rybread Celsius games.
> killed my enthusiasm. I had the web interface generate me a random list,
> and the first two games it gave me were PTBAD6andoneeighth followed by
> Ninja II. Then, looking down the list, and reading the blurbs, I discover
> Amissville II, FutureGame (tm), and Jesus of Nazareth. Seeing all these
> joke games just gave me the feeling that this competition wasn't worth
> judging.
That's up to you. Some games in this years comp were excellent. I
enjoyed discovering them. You're not obligated to play all the games,
nor are you obligated to rate the joke games. You can ignore them
completely if you want.
I actually liked FutureGame(tm). It was short, obviously didn't want to
be taken seriously and was a nice diversion. That's how a joke game
should be.
> I ended up completing 3 games, and getting about halfway through
> a fourth. I think there needs to be a rule that forbids deliberately bad
> games.
How can you tell if a game is deliberately bad or just bad? For that
matter, who's going to judge whether a game is bad or not? One of the
games I rated a 3 turned up in the top 3. Another I rated a 2, while
others rated it highly. It can be a very subjective thing.
> I would rather judge a few games where the authors are putting
> forth an honest effort then 40 games where the authors are throwing
> together some trash in 5 minutes just to irritate judges. This is supposed
> to be a competition for the best game, not the worst.
I like the IFComp as it is. I do find that writing reviews helps. Bad
games can be quite fun to play when you're enumerating all the ways they
are bad.
Derek Ray
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>> There is no practical way to keep bad games out of the competition.[*]
>
> Of course not. However, let me try and explain further. What I found
> off putting, even insulting, were things like the blurb for
> PTBAD6andoneeighth which was full of typos, and brags about all the
> spelling errors. Then, there is this line from the GameInfo.txt file for
> Amissville II. "In keeping with Santoonie tradition, there is no walk
> thru. The game was written for the amusement of it's authors." I think
Well... Why even bother playing it?
Rate it a 1, and continue onward. I have no problem, personally, with a
judge saying "Jeez, not this #@$% again", and basing their judgement on
such things. The ones like Hello Sword (ouch) or Cavern of Lowercase
are likely to hurt to review too, but at least those people were
honestly trying, and as such do at least deserve the bad review, IMO --
if only so they know what to improve.
Reviewing Amissville II, on the other hand, is surely like encountering
a riced-out Yugo at a sports car show with the owner standing next to it
saying "Blows the doors off Ferrari! I swear!" Do you even need to
take a test drive to know it doesn't measure up?
> that games whose readme file or blurb clearly demonstrate that they are bad
> just because the author feels like making a bad game are the problem.
It's only a problem if they win, IMO.
> If we can't disqualify joke games outright, how about a mass refusal to
> give them any rating and simply skip them? That is what I will do next
... From what I can see of the reviews, nobody bothered to play them for
more than about five minutes. Tops.
Not that you can play FutureGame for more than five minutes anyway.
> year with the obvious joke games. Since the authors want to try and get a
> last place finish, if every judge simply skipped over their games, they
> wouldn't place at all.
Alternately, if every judge rates them as '1', the authors will all tie
and nobody gets last place. Zero winners.
--
Derek
insert clever quotation here
Mike Roberts
> I think that games whose readme file or blurb clearly
> demonstrate that they are bad just because the author
> feels like making a bad game are the problem.
I basically share your frustration, but I don't see a good way around it.
Someone would have to do this pre-screening, and the pre-screening decisions
would inevitably lead to controversy and hard feelings and accusations of
elitism and/or incompetence. The genius of the Comp (or part of its genius,
anyway) is the almost perfect democracy of the judging. The downside is
that everyone has to waste a little time weeding out the joke entries.
> If we can't disqualify joke games outright, how about a
> mass refusal to give them any rating and simply skip them?
> Since the authors want to try and get a last place finish, if
> every judge simply skipped over their games, they wouldn't
> place at all.
The only problem with that approach is that it will give undue weight to any
high votes the game gets from other judges. If many people followed this
strategy, you'd have the joke games getting perversely high scores.
I really don't believe the last-place spot is much of a motivator for
anyone, whatever the recipient might say after the fact - "I really wanted
last place" sounds like a pretty weak rationalization to me. What they
really want is the attention - to know that people will be talking about
their game, and maybe to know they wasted a bunch of people's time. So
here's my suggested strategy: a mass refusal to give joke games any reviews.
If you think a game was entered in bad faith, as an intentional waste of
your time, give it a 1 and nothing more; don't even mention its name in your
reviews.
--Mike
mjr underscore at hotmail dot com
aph...@altavista.com
> [* Every year someone suggests two-stage competition voting, or a panel
> of pre-screen judges. This amounts to adding a new competition to
> solve the problem of the "wrong people" entering the competition.
> Which is iffy in several different ways, which is why we never do it
> that way.]
>
> --Z
>
Wrong people. heh.
All you need to do is create a membership, right now it's a public
competition. Maybe it should be a competition for the members, and not
to rule out new people, becuase new people can easily become new
members.
I, represent the public. I am the fat lady with 32 items in the
express checkout, I'm the old man driving 20 on the highway. I'm the
cashier who doesn't know how to change register tape. I'm the garbage
man who only dumps half of the garbage and leaves the rest on your
lawn, I'm the paperboy who never comes, I'm the ...
Anyway Im Mr. Public and sadly, there's more wrong people roaming
around bumping into things and being dopes than 'normal people'. I
don't act public on purpose, maybe like Paul here does, for me it's
just the norm. I really only have a high school education, I was too
interested in the Ladieeesss to continue any further. I know what your
thinking, theres ladieess in college, but I have a thing for pool hall
girls.
Anyway, I'm not intimidated by moderation, memberships, or new rules,
Whatever happens, happens. If I'm shut out, I'll move on, its that
simple. Panks here is the one who gets all emotional.
A.P. Hill
aph...@altavista.com
same thing every year, we post one or two congrates to the winner and
then we spend a month in 'negative' mode.
You guys need to frigin celebrate the games, celebrate the winner, talk
about the games, share your transcripts, really, you all look like
imbiciles, please, Please don't let any major publications, like USA
Today, or whatever... see this newsgroup.
Raymond Martineau
<ja...@disorderfeed.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 01:44:14 GMT, Adam Myrow wrote:
>
>> All I can say about the load of joke games this year is that it completely
>
>There's always been joke games. I think the first comp was joke game
>free, but looking at Comp96, there were two Rybread Celsius games.
Comp95 had Undo and Detective. If you include Tube Trouble (which had a
very strange puzzle), then you have three joke entries.
At least the Detective submission was obvious about the bad-game satire.
Autymn D. C.
imbiciles -> imbeciles
dun...@yahoo.com
A.P.,
To be honest, I only get emotional when someone goes out of their way
to intentionally slam my work or works out of spite. Yeah, Ninja II was
a joke entry, but I put a lot of effort into my others games (e.g.
Westfront PC, HLA Adventure, etc.). And then when they start slamming
my non-IF writing -- even though it has been published in magazines and
by major media outlets -- that's where I draw the line. Especially when
they make off handed remarks about feeling sorry for the AIDS patients
I'll be working with in the hospital. You know what? They don't know
me, nor do they know how sympathetic I am to people who are less
fortunate or suffer needlessly from the corporate greed of
pharmaceutical companies. I have a degree in Sociology from an
accredited university. I am a smart individual who just happens to
suffer from a mild form of mental illness.
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if my games are well
received by the 50 or so people on this newsgroup. I'm not here to
please them. Nor do I care what they think.
Paul
Nightingale
news:dlgo1o$849$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> Therefore, you have two options. One: Don't judge the games; wait for
> the results and play the top scorers. Two: Don't get irritated at the
> bad games; write down a 1 after three minutes and move on.
After four years of getting really annoyed with bad games, I finally gave up
trying to honestly jusge everything and used this method. I actually give it
about ten minutes of gameplay, and if I'm feeling annoyed after those ten
minutes, it gets a 1.
-N
Autymn D. C.
> I wrote Jesus of Nazareth to be something completely different from
> previous games I have authored (see: Westfront PC and HLA Adventure for
> examples). Jesus of Nazareth was entered into the 2005 IF Comp on the
> hopes that it would be blasphemous, but also somewhat funny (Jesus has
> hit points? SWEEEEET!). Yes, it has some bugs (noticed after I entered
> it into the competition, but after the final, so I was stuck in that
> regard).
Jesus did have hit points. He cheated by using a blessed cloak of
regeneration: Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43-48.
"Jesus is magic!" -Sarah Silverman
-Aut
dun...@yahoo.com
Maybe. But isn't that just a +1 or +2 bonus, per AD&D rules? :)
Paul
Autymn D. C.
Andrew Plotkin
> "Adam Myrow" <amy...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
> > I think that games whose readme file or blurb clearly
> > demonstrate that they are bad just because the author
> > feels like making a bad game are the problem.
>
> I basically share your frustration, but I don't see a good way
> around it.
I have the half-serious thought that we should add a rule like this:
"Any game which disparages itself, or which is disparaged by the
author -- in the intro text, help text, or any other such prolegomena
-- will not be accepted as an entry."
It is, obviously, a purely symbolic gesture. The usual suspects would
keep entering the same stuff, with a tacked-on prolog saying "This is
the greatest game ever!" But at least they'd have to *pretend*.
dwh...@gmail.com
dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
> At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if my games are well
> received by the 50 or so people on this newsgroup. I'm not here to
> please them. Nor do I care what they think.
>
> Paul
You do talk some crap sometimes. You go on at length about how you
don't care less about the opinions of the people here, then you throw a
temper tantrum when one of them says he doesn't like your games or
criticises some fifth rate article or book you wrote.
Face it, Panks. Getting recognition from the RAIF/RGIF crowd is the be
all and end all of your sad little existence. Why else post here?
dun...@yahoo.com
Paul
Paul E Collins
> Jesus did have hit points. He cheated by using a
> blessed cloak of regeneration: Mark 5:25-34;
> Luke 8:43-48.
Jesus don't want me for a Sunsword.
P.
Rikard Peterson
"" wrote in
news:1132197885.6...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I am the fat lady with 32 items in the
> express checkout, I'm the old man driving 20 on the highway. I'm
> the cashier who doesn't know how to change register tape. I'm the
> garbage man who only dumps half of the garbage and leaves the rest
> on your lawn, I'm the paperboy who never comes, I'm the ...
Darkwing Duck!
Michael Martin
>be taken seriously and was a nice diversion. That's how a joke game
>should be.
I agree; FutureGame(tm) is respectful of the player in ways that other
joke games like PTBAD, and even some apparently seriously intended
games like Dreary Lands, were not.
And actually, comparing my reviews this year with last, there were a
lot more mediocre games and fewer perversely awful ones. I didn't give
nearly as many 7+ scores, but I didn't give nearly as many 1s and 2s
either.
--Michael
dgen...@hotmail.com
APHill,
I rather liked your game. It wasn't the best of the competition, but
it offered a competently programmed, cartoonish atmosphere, which I
enjoyed. I felt like I was in a Doonesbury strip, or something of that
nature. I also enjoyed the sprawling landscape. I like big-map games,
even though they are currently out of fashion. The graphics were well
chosen. As far as I played, the story was highly linear (complete one
quest,only to be sent on another) which is frustrating to me as a
player, but the puzzle I completed wasn't difficult. Just took some
time to explore all the locations, and find my way back to the
campsite.
So congratulations to ALL of you at the Santoonie Corporation.
Dave
aph...@altavista.com
Pfffttt. (spilt milk) LOL! That's all I'm talkin' about.lol.
comedy!
aph...@altavista.com
call it the Nascar theory becuase of a model used in online nascar
races.
Ahem!
I race nascar, I am a poor driver, I tend to hit walls, barriers and
other cars. When I don't finish well, I don't earn points. Races
require certain points to enter. Rats I can't enter that race due to
my antics! Therefore
Everyone starts at x amount of points, even newcomers. The score your
game gets lowers or highers your points., You must have x amount of
points to enter each years comp.
Whala
A.P. Hill
aph...@altavista.com
it simply confines the growth. I guess it all boils down to who wants
IF to grow and evolve and who wants IF to stay in a shell.
"Hi, I'm Mr. Bob Dylan and I know you despise me for going electric,
but I'd like to play one more song called, Hot for Teacher:
http://www.santoonie.com/software/lostchord.mp3 "
Bob
pretty much enjoyed last years game which featured the second best
sidekick of last years comp (the best being Spider from Splashdown - a
game I can't praise enough).
Bob
Mike Snyder
news:1132255452....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I liked last year's game a *lot* more than this one. My biggest problem with
Amissville II was that I never was sure I was missing puzzlely things, or if
the game was broken. There were two spots I couldn't return from, making me
think I might be in an unwinnable state. I played for two and a half hours
(if I recall correctly), and finally decided that I couldn't trust the world
logic enough to make progress.
I'd be interested in playing through with a walkthrough, if anybody can
provide one.
--- Mike.
Mike Roberts
> Here, Mike Roberts <mj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Adam Myrow" <amy...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
>> > I think that games whose readme file or blurb clearly
>> > demonstrate that they are bad just because the author
>> > feels like making a bad game are the problem.
>>
>> I basically share your frustration, but I don't see a good way
>> around it.
>
> I have the half-serious thought that we should add a rule like this:
>
> "Any game which disparages itself, or which is disparaged by the
> author -- in the intro text, help text, or any other such prolegomena
> -- will not be accepted as an entry."
The only problems with a rule like that are (1) it would tend to exclude
parodies of the intentionally-bad-Comp-game cliche (which we're ripe for,
now that it's happened enough times to be identifiable as a cliche), and (2)
someone would have to make the judgment, and that would inevitably lead to
fights. I suppose you could solve both of these by requiring the entrants
themselves to make the call, such as by checking a box on the entry form (so
to speak) affirming that it's not an intentionally bad game - but that seems
kind of pointless, since I can't see any meaningful sanctions that could be
applied for false affirmations.
I wonder if there's some sort of "soft" pre-screening rule that could help -
by "soft" I mean something that wouldn't actually exclude anyone who really
wanted to enter, but would be an encouraged extra step to build the
confidence of the judges. Something reputation-based, perhaps. For
example: allow each entrant to submit a short list of "approvers" - these
would be beta testers who are willing to say that they looked at the game
and found it worthy of entry. Limit it to, say, two or three approvers per
game, to avoid making it a contest over who has the longest approver list;
and make the approval itself very basic, to avoid making it look like an
early review - an approval would be a simple yes/no that indicates only that
the game met a low minimum standard of entry-worthiness. It would be purely
optional. Judges who felt pressed for time could use the approver list to
de-prioritize entries with no approvers, or with approvers they don't know,
or do know but don't trust. There's still a danger that "celebrity"
approvers might give a game a subliminal boost in the minds of some judges;
but presumably that's already a factor anyway, as games can simply list
their testers in their ABOUT text - besides, games can have celebrity
*authors*, which has to be a much bigger prejudicing influence.
Andrew Plotkin
> >
> > I have the half-serious thought that we should add a rule like this:
> >
> > "Any game which disparages itself, or which is disparaged by the
> > author -- in the intro text, help text, or any other such prolegomena
> > -- will not be accepted as an entry."
>
> The only problems with a rule like that are (1) it would tend to exclude
> parodies of the intentionally-bad-Comp-game cliche (which we're ripe for,
> now that it's happened enough times to be identifiable as a cliche), and (2)
> someone would have to make the judgment, and that would inevitably lead to
> fights.
That's why we have a Comp Organizer. (Also why the Comp Organizer gets
to decide whether to take my half-serious thoughts seriously.) I did
intentionally phrase that rule as shallowly and objectively as I
could.
As for parodies -- that's another reason I phrased the rule shallowly.
If you can do a parody of a bad game which manages -- in the first
thirty seconds! -- to convince the player that it is in fact only
*pretending* to be a bad game, you can certainly avoid a few key
phrases like "This game sucks."
> I suppose you could solve both of these by requiring the entrants
> themselves to make the call, such as by checking a box on the entry
> form (so to speak) affirming that it's not an intentionally bad game
> - but that seems kind of pointless, since I can't see any meaningful
> sanctions that could be applied for false affirmations.
It's the wrong kind of pointless. If people are going to have to make
a gesture, it should be a public gesture.
> I wonder if there's some sort of "soft" pre-screening rule that could help -
> by "soft" I mean something that wouldn't actually exclude anyone who really
> wanted to enter, but would be an encouraged extra step to build the
> confidence of the judges.
Way, way too much effort. Remember, the most this system can save me
is the two minutes it takes to recognize what I'm looking at.
Nobody in this thread has been bemoaning a game where you play,
engrossed, for an hour and *then* discover it was intentionally bad.
Mike Roberts
> Here, Mike Roberts <mj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder if there's some sort of "soft" pre-screening rule
>
> Way, way too much effort.
Really? For whom? My "approver" idea doesn't seem like any extra work for
judges, who can use the information or not; it is admittedly some work for
the contest organizer, but it doesn't seem too onerous; and presumably most
authors are already beta-testing anyway, so it's just a matter of including
the names in their submissions.
> Remember, the most this system can save me is the two
> minutes it takes to recognize what I'm looking at.
Well, I'm not so sure; for one thing it's two minutes times the number of
sucky games, and for another I think a hundred and twenty seconds is rather
harsher than most judges are willing to be. I think the complaint is more
that a lot of judges feel compelled to give even an apparently sucky game
more than two minutes, to make sure they're not just missing something.
It's not so much an expectation that non-sucky bits might occur later in a
game that starts off demonstrably suckily; it's more a benefit of the doubt
sort of thing. I've played a few games in Comps where I was pretty sure
within a couple of minutes that the game was sucky, but I just didn't feel
like it was fair to judge it on so little data, so I ended up sinking more
time into it to be sure. For me, at least, ten or fifteen minutes is
probably a more reasonable minimum.
I'm sure the easiest solution would be for judges to be willing to dismiss
games that appear to suck in the first two minutes. In a 35-game Comp
that's a maximum of about an hour wasted. But if you ratchet up the minimum
time just a little, it starts to get significant, and I think that's where
the complaints come from.
J. Robinson Wheeler
> One more thing though as I sit here reading this comical bs, it's
> the same thing every year, we post one or two congrates to the
> winner and then we spend a month in 'negative' mode.
>
> You guys need to frigin celebrate the games, celebrate the winner,
> talk about the games, share your transcripts, really, you all look
> like imbiciles.
Ah, a burst of cogency. And I agree. My general Comp fatigue that
has grown over the years is not just about the games, but about
seeing the same negative discussion afterwards every time. It
is starting to seem farcical at that.
Likewise, it is a splash of cold water that it takes A.P.Hill, with
his fool-on-the-hill's perspective, to exhort us to celebrate IF.
What else are we here for?
--
J. Robinson Wheeler IF Games and Reviews: http://raddial.com/if
JRW Digital Media Movie: http://thekroneexperiment.com/
aph...@altavista.com
but...
Thanks! It's like Tilli said, we just couldn't get it done. I think I
know what you guys like, cause it's the same stuff I like. Going
forward we should see more games like Zero, Amissville II was so
burdensome, it was something we felt compelled to do, but couldn't get
it down right. When your forced to do something, it kinda fades.
Whymsical fairy tales always are fun, who wouldn't want to carry around
a female pixie in their pocket!
Boluc Papuccuoglu
On the whole, I agree that the best strategy for attention seeking
idiots is ignoring them (It doesn't take much time, and wasting
resources on dealing with the sociopaths is a reward in itself for
them). But, every now and then (a few times a year), I have a
conversation like this with a friend:
Fr:So, what are you playing these days?
BP:I've been wracking my brains trying to solve this cool text
adventure called "Muldoon Legacy".
Fr:Are there still people writing text adventures?
BP:Sure, last year alone there were 30 new games written. That's more
than Infocom's whole body of work.
And at this point, I would like to direct him toward last year's
IfComp offerings. (That's how I got started on modern IF, by reading
about the comp in the underdogs) However, I can't do that because of
all the dross the poor guy will have to sift through (though it is
more likely he will give up on the first bad game he sees) to get to
any of the better stuff.
My point is that the bad games in each year's comp are not having much
effect on us jaded folk, but are hurting the community by slowing
expansion.
aph...@altavista.com
much junk to sift through etc etc. There is <i>already</i> a ton of
junk on the archive to sift through, it is overwelming for anyone new.
I think expansion is set on the shoulders of that first single person
who has a break out game. And how do you make a masterpiece in IF, you
keep trying. You view others work, you take notes, you play them, you
talk about them.
Does a masterpiece exist at this moment, hell no. Too many people
walking around here thinking they've done all they can do. Blah.
Derek Ray
nobody has bothered to define:
a) why is IF no longer as popular? (Everyone KNOWS, but it will help to
get it down to a concrete definition)
b) what will it take to address each of (a)?
THEN you start working on your breakout game, after solving all those
problems. The best idea in the world will be dreck if it's not written
in a manner that allows it to succeed.
aph...@altavista.com wrote:
> I disagree with your last statement about hurting community etc, too
> much junk to sift through etc etc. There is <i>already</i> a ton of
> junk on the archive to sift through, it is overwelming for anyone new.
...
> I think expansion is set on the shoulders of that first single person
> who has a break out game. And how do you make a masterpiece in IF, you
...
> Does a masterpiece exist at this moment, hell no. Too many people
> walking around here thinking they've done all they can do. Blah.
>
--
Derek
insert clever quotation here
rgrassi
> a) why is IF no longer as popular? (Everyone KNOWS, but it will help to
> get it down to a concrete definition)
My opinion.
Because it missed the opportunity to move toward a window and
point&click based gameplay (which does not necessarily mean that it
will lose the 'text based' centric adventurish approach) and "current"
authoring tools are based upon the paradigm that the *best* way to
write and play IF is basically the same way choosen twenty years ago.
Rob
Mike Snyder
news:1132333122.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't know if I agree that an opportunity was missed.
IF is what remains after other kinds of adventure games evolved along a
different path. There seems to be a very large community of
point-and-clickers, and people doing things along the SCUMM / Sierra style.
http://www.adventuredevelopers.com/
---- Mike.
The Wanderer
> I disagree with your last statement about hurting community etc, too
> much junk to sift through etc etc. There is <i>already</i> a ton of
> junk on the archive to sift through, it is overwelming for anyone
> new.
But I think that part of Boluc's point was that the Comp (and, even more
so, its winners) should be able to serve as a kind of "filter" for that,
to winnow out the junk and leave the better stuff behind. If
intentionally bad entries (not just "joke" entries, because humor pieces
- the IF equivalent of what in fanfiction is called a spamfic - are not
necessarily bad) make too much of a showing, however, then the Comp can
not be used for that purpose.
(My own problem with finding "good" stuff is that most of the kind of
thing I like doesn't seem to have a lot of overlap with what is
considered "good" IF, so a) I can't really rely too much on many of the
recommendations I see and b) not a lot of my type of game are being
written anyway... at least not a lot which are any good in other ways.)
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
dgen...@hotmail.com
I've had luck searching for good games in the Baf's guide. The Baf's
search engine also allows you to search for games by an author you
especially like, by genre, or even by type of puzzle (though I'm not
sure how reliable that last feature really is) so you can always find
just what you want.
As far as filtering bad games prior to a competition- well, that's what
the competition is for! This was my first year judging the
competition, and one of the things which really excited me about doing
that was the opportunity to discover for myself which were the good
games, and which ones really sucked, without reading anyone else
reviews in advance.
A gem discovered by accident, amongst a trowel of dirt, shines twice as
brightly as any you might find pre-appraised by the jeweler.
Dave
The Wanderer
> The Wanderer wrote:
>
>> aph...@altavista.com wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree with your last statement about hurting community etc,
>>> too much junk to sift through etc etc. There is <i>already</i> a
>>> ton of junk on the archive to sift through, it is overwelming for
>>> anyone new.
>>
>> But I think that part of Boluc's point was that the Comp (and, even
>> more so, its winners) should be able to serve as a kind of "filter"
>> for that, to winnow out the junk and leave the better stuff behind.
>> If intentionally bad entries (not just "joke" entries, because
>> humor pieces - the IF equivalent of what in fanfiction is called a
>> spamfic - are not necessarily bad) make too much of a showing,
>> however, then the Comp can not be used for that purpose.
>>
>> (My own problem with finding "good" stuff is that most of the kind
>> of thing I like doesn't seem to have a lot of overlap with what is
>> considered "good" IF, so a) I can't really rely too much on many of
>> the recommendations I see and b) not a lot of my type of game are
>> being written anyway... at least not a lot which are any good in
>> other ways.)
>
> I've had luck searching for good games in the Baf's guide. The Baf's
> search engine also allows you to search for games by an author you
> especially like, by genre, or even by type of puzzle (though I'm not
> sure how reliable that last feature really is) so you can always find
> just what you want.
I've found a few good pieces in there, but not very many - and I'm not
sure whether that's due to poor searching on my part, or just a paucity
of available games which meet my criteria.
Y'see, I *like* games in which you're supposed to go around exploring,
mapping (I've made maps for a few games which *really* didn't need it,
just because I enjoy making maps), finding puzzles, finding clues,
finding key items, figuring out which item is supposed to go with which
puzzle; the best match to my tastes I've seen in freely-available IF is
probably Not Just an Ordinary Ballerina, although I'll note on that
point that I don't enjoy unmappable mazes. I also don't enjoy games with
paths which are dead ends if you don't do them at the right time but
don't let you find that out till it's too late (or rather, a
poorly-defined subset of "can be made unwinnable" games) - the first
example which springs to mind being "Curses", which is otherwise very
much enjoyable. I'm not even sure I like games which rely too much on
interaction with NPCs, just because it's that much more difficult to
grasp it all and figure out what makes sense where, when and why. I'm
further handicapped by having very high standards for linguistic
quality; sloppy prose tends to turn me off of a game very quickly.
The trend in games written by those with the right skills to avoid
falling foul of that last criterion seems to be away from games where
mapping makes sense, games where puzzles are the point, games which do
not trap you in unwinnability without letting you know about it (and
that's a poor job of expressing the quality I'm actually thinking of),
and towards things with more highfalutin' aims, greater literary merit,
and so forth. I have no objection to people wanting to create such
games; I even agree that some of them probably have considerably greater
lasting value than would just about any game of the type I want. It's
just that I don't *enjoy* them, and since I seem to be in a considerable
minority there (at least among people with enough apparent prestige that
I'd be otherwise inclined to trust their opinions), I can't really go by
most of the recommendations I've ever come across.
Yes, it is possible to search and/or filter on some relevant things in
Baf's Guide - but not nearly enough to fit some of my criteria; even
with all else failing, there is no way that I've noticed to judge the
"production values" (ranging from depth of implementation to simple
spelling and grammar) of a game without either asking someone who's
played it or downloading it and playing it oneself, and that hurdle is
probably the hardest of all.
> As far as filtering bad games prior to a competition- well, that's
> what the competition is for! This was my first year judging the
> competition, and one of the things which really excited me about
> doing that was the opportunity to discover for myself which were the
> good games, and which ones really sucked, without reading anyone else
> reviews in advance.
>
> A gem discovered by accident, amongst a trowel of dirt, shines twice
> as brightly as any you might find pre-appraised by the jeweler.
True enough. I was primarily just explaining a point I felt had been
missed, not assessing whether that point had final merit. (I think that
the situation is more complicated than either side has really gone into,
yet, but I'm not competent to do it justice either.)
lumi...@hotmail.com
>
> I wonder if there's some sort of "soft" pre-screening rule that could help -
> by "soft" I mean something that wouldn't actually exclude anyone who really
> wanted to enter, but would be an encouraged extra step to build the
> confidence of the judges. Something reputation-based, perhaps. For
> example: allow each entrant to submit a short list of "approvers" - these
> would be beta testers who are willing to say that they looked at the game
> and found it worthy of entry. Limit it to, say, two or three approvers per
> game, to avoid making it a contest over who has the longest approver list;
> and make the approval itself very basic, to avoid making it look like an
> early review - an approval would be a simple yes/no that indicates only that
> the game met a low minimum standard of entry-worthiness. It would be purely
> optional. Judges who felt pressed for time could use the approver list to
> de-prioritize entries with no approvers, or with approvers they don't know,
> or do know but don't trust. There's still a danger that "celebrity"
> approvers might give a game a subliminal boost in the minds of some judges;
> but presumably that's already a factor anyway, as games can simply list
> their testers in their ABOUT text - besides, games can have celebrity
> *authors*, which has to be a much bigger prejudicing influence.
>
> --Mike
> mjr underscore at hotmail dot com
This has probably been suggested before, but instead of something like
this, is there any reason the IFComp can't just start requiring a small
entry fee, like the SpringComp?
I'm sure even then there might still be a few idiots so intent on
wasting everyone's time they don't mind parting with a few bucks to do
so, but at least they'll be contributing to the prize money for the
legitimate authors.
James Mitchelhill
<snip>
> This has probably been suggested before, but instead of something like
> this, is there any reason the IFComp can't just start requiring a small
> entry fee, like the SpringComp?
This would be a bad thing. Many people who enter the IFComp are first
time authors. Since it's difficult for first time authors to get reviews
or discussion of their small games without entering the IFComp (which is
itself a bad thing, but that's been discussed many times over), having
the major comp put up a barrier to new entrants would be absolutely
awful for the future of the IF community.
[Speaking of reviews and discussion, is the Game of the Week project
still active?]
--
James Mitchelhill
ja...@disorderfeed.net
http://disorderfeed.net
Dan Shiovitz
The Wanderer <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
>dgen...@hotmail.com wrote:
[..]
>> I've had luck searching for good games in the Baf's guide. The Baf's
>> search engine also allows you to search for games by an author you
>> especially like, by genre, or even by type of puzzle (though I'm not
>> sure how reliable that last feature really is) so you can always find
>> just what you want.
>
>I've found a few good pieces in there, but not very many - and I'm not
>sure whether that's due to poor searching on my part, or just a paucity
>of available games which meet my criteria.
>
>Y'see, I *like* games in which you're supposed to go around exploring,
>mapping (I've made maps for a few games which *really* didn't need it,
>just because I enjoy making maps), finding puzzles, finding clues,
As so often in these situations, I would recommend you check out the IF
Scoreboard -- in this case, specifically stuff listed in the
Puzzle-Fest genre:
http://www.carouselchain.com/if/statistics.php?genre=23&type=genre&limit=10
In addition, a more recent game that I am playing right now is
"Finding Martin" which seems like almost exactly what you are looking for:
http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/tads/fm.gam
> The Wanderer
--
Dan Shiovitz :: d...@cs.wisc.edu :: http://www.drizzle.com/~dans
"He settled down to dictate a letter to the Consolidated Nailfile and
Eyebrow Tweezer Corporation of Scranton, Pa., which would make them
realize that life is stern and earnest and Nailfile and Eyebrow Tweezer
Corporations are not put in this world for pleasure alone." -PGW
The Wanderer
> In article <mu6dnXMQ5s5...@comcast.com>, The Wanderer
> <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> dgen...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> I've had luck searching for good games in the Baf's guide. The
>>> Baf's search engine also allows you to search for games by an
>>> author you especially like, by genre, or even by type of puzzle
>>> (though I'm not sure how reliable that last feature really is) so
>>> you can always find just what you want.
>>
>> I've found a few good pieces in there, but not very many - and I'm
>> not sure whether that's due to poor searching on my part, or just a
>> paucity of available games which meet my criteria.
>>
>> Y'see, I *like* games in which you're supposed to go around
>> exploring, mapping (I've made maps for a few games which *really*
>> didn't need it, just because I enjoy making maps), finding puzzles,
>> finding clues,
>
> As so often in these situations, I would recommend you check out the
> IF Scoreboard -- in this case, specifically stuff listed in the
> Puzzle-Fest genre:
> http://www.carouselchain.com/if/statistics.php?genre=23&type=genre&limit=10
Hmmmm. Okay, this is a resource I'd never heard of; thank you very much.
I'll be certain to explore that in some depth when I have the time.
Genre categories aren't necessarily all that useful, for various
reasons, but when combined with an actual rating system it sounds like
it could indeed be quite helpful.
It happens that at least one of the games on that list, Ad Verbum, is
one I'd already played and enjoyed (although I now find that I can't
remember the solutions to half the more irritating puzzles); this is
probably a good sign for some of the rest.
> In addition, a more recent game that I am playing right now is
> "Finding Martin" which seems like almost exactly what you are looking
> for:
> http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/tads/fm.gam
And I've already received a private mail about that game from its
apparent author, on the strength of the fact that you mentioned it to
me. I've downloaded it already, just on general principles, and by
default it will probably be the next game I try; again, thanks for the
recommendation.
Richard Bos
[ Please... don't top-post. ]
> From what I can see, everyone wants to talk about "expansion", but
> nobody has bothered to define:
>
> a) why is IF no longer as popular? (Everyone KNOWS, but it will help to
> get it down to a concrete definition)
I think this is a red herring. IF still is as popular as ever: it never
was very popular. Oh, at a certain time it enjoyed a certain popularity
among computer owners; but that was well before PCs became common place.
Most computer game players of today, those who play Quake and Call of
Duty and who chat on MSN, are the people who would, when text adventures
were "popular", have looked down on adventure players as hopeless geeks.
And still do, only now they, too, own computers.
Richard
David Thornley
<dun...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>No, David, it is not the best I am capable of. But since you don't give
>a fuck to even LOOK at any of the games I have written, why should I
>care to pander to your trivial needs?
>
For the reason that entering a game in the comp is a request for
hundreds of people to play it enough to form opinions. Uploading
a bad game to the IF archive does little harm, as nobody has any
feeling of obligation to play it. Submitting one to the comp
is at best discourteous.
You put a game where it is going to get played a lot, don't bother
to make it good, and then complain that nobody looks at your games
so it doesn't matter? You're not making sense.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
David Thornley
The Wanderer <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>But I think that part of Boluc's point was that the Comp (and, even more
>so, its winners) should be able to serve as a kind of "filter" for that,
>to winnow out the junk and leave the better stuff behind. If
>intentionally bad entries (not just "joke" entries, because humor pieces
>- the IF equivalent of what in fanfiction is called a spamfic - are not
>necessarily bad) make too much of a showing, however, then the Comp can
>not be used for that purpose.
>
things they're parodying. (Which comp entry, the comp entry or the
comp entry?) Inflict them on somebody new to IF and they'll turn
that person off.
However, the comp can be used as a filter. You do have to wait for
it to be over, but right now I looked at the front page of ifcomp.org
and saw that Vespers, Beyond, A New Life, and The Plague (Redux)
were listed as the best of the comp (in some fashion - Beyond is
not one of the authors' top three, and Plague not part of the judges').
There have been years where, in my opinion, the top three weren't
all that great, but they're always decent games (you could argue
about the first couple of years, I guess), and should be decent
introductions.
Olaf Bickern
> I've found a few good pieces in there, but not very many - and I'm not
> sure whether that's due to poor searching on my part, or just a paucity
> of available games which meet my criteria.
>
> Y'see, I *like* games in which you're supposed to go around exploring,
> mapping (I've made maps for a few games which *really* didn't need it,
> just because I enjoy making maps), finding puzzles, finding clues,
> finding key items, figuring out which item is supposed to go with which
> puzzle;
You might want to give Acheton a try, then. I'm playing it right now and
I'm having a blast (well, I'm not really very far). If you like it -
there are others of this kind, in the if-archievs phoenix-directory.
See, the reason few puzzle-feasts are beeing written nowadays, might be
that there are enough already for a player's lifetime.
> I also don't enjoy games with
> paths which are dead ends if you don't do them at the right time but
> don't let you find that out till it's too late (or rather, a
> poorly-defined subset of "can be made unwinnable" games) - the first
> example which springs to mind being "Curses", which is otherwise very
> much enjoyable.
Oh well, I cannot guaranty *that*. However, you might want to have a
look anyway. Acheton is not a two-hour game. It's game game you fire up
when you take a break; you ponder on it for have an hour; you get back
to it some time later.
> I'm not even sure I like games which rely too much on
> interaction with NPCs, just because it's that much more difficult to
> grasp it all and figure out what makes sense where, when and why. I'm
> further handicapped by having very high standards for linguistic
> quality; sloppy prose tends to turn me off of a game very quickly.
It's written pretty well.
> Yes, it is possible to search and/or filter on some relevant things in
> Baf's Guide - but not nearly enough to fit some of my criteria; even
> with all else failing, there is no way that I've noticed to judge the
> "production values" (ranging from depth of implementation to simple
> spelling and grammar) of a game without either asking someone who's
> played it or downloading it and playing it oneself, and that hurdle is
> probably the hardest of all.
Reading the newsgroup's archive works quite well for me. You'd search
for some general terms, find off-hand comments, search for what you've
found, and so on.
dun...@yahoo.com
Ninja II was a joke entry. Jesus of Nazareth a semi-joke entry
(although, to be honest, I did spend a lot of time researching for the
game and making the room descriptions decent enough).
Most of my good games ARE in the IF-Archive:
Westfront PC: The Trials of Guilder
HLA Adventure
The Magic Flute
The Golden French Fry
etc. etc. etc.
Paul
GQrivy
Since sending you that e-mail about my game "Finding Martin", I
realized that I should have mentioned that while this game is suited to
many of your preferences, it does have some unforgiving parts in which
the game can be put into an unwinnable state. In fairness to you and
others reading this thread, I encourage prospective players of "Finding
Martin" to read the introductory note offered at the beginning of the
game regarding a recommended save-and-restore strategy that will keep
the game up-front as opposed to sneaky. If this is a strong turn-off
for you then you will have an opportunity to choose a different game
before investing time in it.
Also I should add a note that since this is the first game I have
written and since my previous game-playing experience did not include
much in the way modern IF, it's likely to seem old-fashioned and not in
line with the rigorous state-of-the-art standards that I've been
reading about in this newsgroup lately. For example, my NPC's are not
great conversationalists.
Game download, pictures, description, walk-through, and more are
available at http://www.qrivy.net/~gayla
Thanks to Dan and congratulations to the comp winners.
- Gayla
The Wanderer
> The Wanderer wrote:
>
>> Dan Shiovitz wrote:
>>> In addition, a more recent game that I am playing right now is
>>> "Finding Martin" which seems like almost exactly what you are
>>> looking for:
>>> http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/tads/fm.gam
>>
>> And I've already received a private mail about that game from its
>> apparent author, on the strength of the fact that you mentioned it
>> to me. I've downloaded it already, just on general principles, and
>> by default it will probably be the next game I try; again, thanks
>> for the recommendation.
>
> Since sending you that e-mail about my game "Finding Martin", I
> realized that I should have mentioned that while this game is suited
> to many of your preferences, it does have some unforgiving parts in
> which the game can be put into an unwinnable state. In fairness to
> you and others reading this thread, I encourage prospective players
> of "Finding Martin" to read the introductory note offered at the
> beginning of the game regarding a recommended save-and-restore
> strategy that will keep the game up-front as opposed to sneaky. If
> this is a strong turn-off for you then you will have an opportunity
> to choose a different game before investing time in it.
Unwinnability is not an *absolute* turn-off for me (I did like the
original Zork games), but certain types of unwinnability tend to get me
more annoyed than they're worth. The example which springs most readily
to mind is from Curses, which lets you go into a "teleporter to other
regions" with no indication that you're about to make a one-way trip -
even though the only ways to get back from the far end involve items
which you may not have picked up yet, and the only way to *complete* the
puzzles at the far end is to have other items and/or information which
don't come till near the end of the game. I don't mind being able to
access end-game areas near the beginning but not do anything but die
there; what I mind is being able to go there, with no indication that I
won't be able to get back, and then find myself stuck.
Your mention of a save-and-restore strategy also reminded me, by an
indirect route (and the game Letters from Home), of another big thing I
tend to not like in games: turn-based timers, ticking off the time till
Something Irreversible Happens. The only thing they do, for me, is lead
me to use a "do this, then Undo, then try something else" technique, so
as to be able to explore and experiment as freely as possible without
wasting time on the clock; the aggravation of having to constantly Undo
every Look and Examine action (except the ones which plainly did
something desirable) sharply decreases the fun of playing the game.
> Also I should add a note that since this is the first game I have
> written and since my previous game-playing experience did not include
> much in the way modern IF, it's likely to seem old-fashioned and not
> in line with the rigorous state-of-the-art standards that I've been
> reading about in this newsgroup lately. For example, my NPC's are
> not great conversationalists.
I've run across few who are, personally. Not many of the older games
that I know of even *had* many noticeable NPCs, and few of those had
much to say outside of specific circumstances.
(Not that I especially *mind* complex and talkative NPCs, but games
where much of the point is conversation don't tend to be my cup of tea,
for a fair variety of reasons.)
As long as the implementation is reasonably deep (the constant harping
on "let the player look at every item mentioned" is perhaps a bit
overdone, but it happens for a reason), the spelling, punctuation and
grammar are within spec, and there are no major programming errors, I
suspect you'll do just fine in my book.
Derek Ray
Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
enforcer with nothing of value to contribute. Much like him, your
enforcement is mindless because you don't know a whole lot about the
subject.
Top-posting is considered 'bad' because nobody knows what part of the
original article one is responding to. However, if one... as I did...
snips out all the portions of the original article except the parts that
are relevant, then everyone can easily see the context.
(Your name looks familiar. Aren't you that same guy who I made look
like a fool awhile back when you were complaining that my posts had no
context... when in fact I was responding to hexed-ASCII context in the
Subject: line, but you weren't intelligent enough to figure it out and
had to have it spelled out for you?)
>> From what I can see, everyone wants to talk about "expansion", but
>> nobody has bothered to define:
>>
>> a) why is IF no longer as popular? (Everyone KNOWS, but it will help to
>> get it down to a concrete definition)
>
> I think this is a red herring. IF still is as popular as ever: it never
> was very popular. Oh, at a certain time it enjoyed a certain popularity
> among computer owners; but that was well before PCs became common place.
Beginning from this premise assumes that the cause is already lost in
the first place, and as such has little room in the "how can we help IF
expand?" discussion.
In any case, to say that it 'never was very popular' only because very
few people owned PCs is a patently false statement. It was _quite_
popular among computer owners -- and those who didn't own a computer
cannot be counted on one side of the fence or the other.
> Most computer game players of today, those who play Quake and Call of
> Duty and who chat on MSN, are the people who would, when text adventures
> were "popular", have looked down on adventure players as hopeless geeks.
> And still do, only now they, too, own computers.
"Most"? Unsubstantiated and spurious at best, and simply wrong at
worst. Those who play Quake are the same people we were who played
adventures -- their point of entry was simply much higher up the
technological food chain, and they correctly mock any half-hearted
efforts to get them to look below their own entry-point for quality.
In words of one syllable: IF was one of the best things we had. If
today's gamer was subjected to the same technological limitations
combined with the "newness" of the concept of "computer gaming" in the
first place, they would happily have gobbled up all the IF they could
find. And, in fact, they did.
The question everyone seems to be too slow in asking, much less
answering, is:
-- Why would someone want to use a 2.xGHZ machine with gallons of
graphical processing power to display, read, and enter text?
The answer is: They don't and won't. Much like the idea of e-books
never really took off (because sitting at your computer reading a book
isn't anywhere near as enjoyable as curling up on the couch and doing
the same), the thought of using a PC to do something like IF these days
comes across to most people as the classic sledgehammer-and-fly
scenario. And well it should. The original IF era overcame this
because (a) PCs were a lot more like a flyswatter in the IF heyday, and
(b) IF was a brand new toy.
The idea of reading an e-book on your handheld/PDA, however, becomes
much more palatable to most people, for a number of reasons; not the
least of which being that the player and couch can become friends again.
It seems obvious that wasting any time developing new forms of IF for
the PC is exactly that -- a waste of time. If you want the idea of IF
to reach mass market, significant effort needs to be spent in
discovering a form of 'adventure' that can be played on people's PDAs...
and making it not suck. This may mean throwing away the traditional
text-only form of IF, or just throwing away parts of it. But I can tell
you this; people will be far more forgiving of IF's inherent limitations
when it's presented to them on a platform that already has a number of
limitations... and that IF is uniquely suited for.
To do this, you'll have to overcome some challenges: one of them is that
entering text on a PDA sucks. Perhaps it'll be necessary to remove most
forms of "writing" input altogether -- after all, guess-the-verb is a
common problem even in some of the best games. But I'm pretty confident
there's room in the modern gamer's mind for an IF-like hybrid on a
PDA... now let's see if the talent available can get it there.
Stevie B
Derek Ray wrote:
> Richard Bos wrote:
> > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ Please... don't top-post. ]
>
> Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
> you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
> enforcer with nothing of value to contribute. Much like him, your
> enforcement is mindless because you don't know a whole lot about the
> subject.
Do not speak that name so loudly! Let not the Black Speech of Mordor
be spoken here to the exclusion of all else.
Derek Ray
(to my knowledge) does it grep USENET.
Then again, maybe it's already here and I just don't know it? Ahh...
the plonkfile. So easy, yet so refreshing.
Stevie B wrote:
> Derek Ray wrote:
>> Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
>> you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
>> enforcer with nothing of value to contribute.
>
> Do not speak that name so loudly! Let not the Black Speech of Mordor
> be spoken here to the exclusion of all else.
--
Rikard Peterson
"Derek Ray" wrote in news:edOdnSuMjKZ...@giganews.com:
> Richard Bos wrote:
>>
>> [ Please... don't top-post. ]
>
> Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
> you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
> enforcer with nothing of value to contribute. Much like him, your
> enforcement is mindless because you don't know a whole lot about the
> subject.
Richard didn't post only to complain about your posting. He posted
on the subject discussed and only asked you to follow netiquette in
passing. I think it's far from the same bin as the mindless grammar
posts you mention, and there is no need for that kind of language.
(This post on the other hand contains less content, but now the ball
is already rolling so I figured I'd jump in.)
> Top-posting is considered 'bad' because nobody knows what part of
> the original article one is responding to. However, if one... as
> I did... snips out all the portions of the original article except
> the parts that are relevant, then everyone can easily see the
> context.
Yes, trimming is good. But if you had written your reply below the
quoted text, it would have been easier to quickly see the context
before reading your reply. That's another reason to prefer bottom-
posting over top-posting.
Rikard
Stevie B
True, true. Actually I think that Derek Ray and Richard Bros and
Rikard Peterson have all made some good points here. Only my
unbounded bad instincts prompted me to stick my nose into where it
would be safer not to venture. Will I never learn?
Sure wish I understood grepping. Sigh.
Derek Ray
1) kiss my ass and get back on the subject, OR
2) fuck off.
Your post contained absolutely nothing related to my point OR the topic
under discussion; so in expressing your OCD, you have violated your
precious netiquette in a more severe fashion (that of being off-topic
AND of being a net.cop, which is correctly considered to be far ruder
than the occasional top-post in an otherwise perfectly intelligible and
understandable message.)
Do you follow my point now? The time you two wasted whining about
top-posting could have been better spent doing anything else at all.
It's one thing if the "netiquette" (an outmoded concept in the 80's)
violation caused the post to be incomprehensible; mine, however, was
obviously only incomprehensible to the already-illiterate ... not the
target audience of Interactive Fiction or USENET in general, so I'm not
really concerned whether they understand it or not.
Rikard Peterson wrote:
> "Derek Ray" wrote in news:edOdnSuMjKZ...@giganews.com:
>> Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
>> you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
>> enforcer with nothing of value to contribute. Much like him, your
>> enforcement is mindless because you don't know a whole lot about the
>> subject.
>
> Richard didn't post only to complain about your posting. He posted
> on the subject discussed and only asked you to follow netiquette in
> passing. I think it's far from the same bin as the mindless grammar
> posts you mention, and there is no need for that kind of language.
--
Autymn D. C.
> Please... blow me. This sort of mindless netiquette enforcement puts
> you squarely in the same bin as Autymn DC, who is a mindless grammar
> enforcer with nothing of value to contribute. Much like him, your
> enforcement is mindless because you don't know a whole lot about the
> subject.
None of mine is mindless, and you're a foul illiterate scumspawn who
can't tell what value or a name is. It's "Autymn D. C.", not what you
or the other blindmen write, like "DC" or "Autumn" or "him". It's you
who make statements without understanding or evidence; you write like a
teeny-weeny loser.. or a dyke.
> Top-posting is considered 'bad' because nobody knows what part of the
> original article one is responding to. However, if one... as I did...
> snips out all the portions of the original article except the parts that
> are relevant, then everyone can easily see the context.
You must read backwards like how you think.
> -- Why would someone want to use a 2.xGHZ machine with gallons of
> graphical processing power to display, read, and enter text?
>
> The answer is: They don't and won't. Much like the idea of e-books
> never really took off (because sitting at your computer reading a book
> isn't anywhere near as enjoyable as curling up on the couch and doing
> the same), the thought of using a PC to do something like IF these days
Do what I do: Play on a laptop on one's belly. Use a Powerbook so it
doesn't burn skin and money for the same power.
> The idea of reading an e-book on your handheld/PDA, however, becomes
> much more palatable to most people, for a number of reasons; not the
> least of which being that the player and couch can become friends again.
> It seems obvious that wasting any time developing new forms of IF for
> the PC is exactly that -- a waste of time. If you want the idea of IF
> to reach mass market, significant effort needs to be spent in
> discovering a form of 'adventure' that can be played on people's PDAs...
A 12" laptop is much better to serve people's needs than a PDA, when
they need to carry it anywhere. Otherwise, stick with the 15" laptop.
PDAs are already niche. You want a touchscreen? Try the trackpad. IF
needs a keyboard to have some whit of guess-the-word.
-Aut
james cunningham
> It's not Kibo. It doesn't magically show up if you speak its name, nor
> (to my knowledge) does it grep USENET.
Too late, sir! See below.
best,
james
Stevie B
Yes. Well.
This is not terribly surprising considering that she had already posted
to this thread previously, but those who have her in their killfiles
probably wouldn't notice. We can't really blame her for responding
negatively since she was being so obviously baited, although not
necessarily most strongly by the person she chose to reply to. I
suppose that we'll just have to find something else to blame her for if
we can find the time to squeeze it in somewhere. Perhaps after the
holidays.
People sure do disagree a lot about issues such as
top-posting/bottom-posting and what does or does not constitute
unacceptably rude behavior on Usenet. In my opinion, nitpicking and
correcting others on petty issues is worthy of only three lashes with
the wet noodle. Being the first one to escalate the hostility of the
exchange into the vulgar language red-zone (ie., Black Speech) deserves
a dumping upon the head of the rest of the noodles.
Unsuccessful attempts at humor are the worst, of course. Especially
when they offer no useful on-topic content and fail miserably in their
attempts to defuse anger, distract focus, or encourage a more
entertaining insult exchange. Is it possible to plonk or better yet,
simply ignore oneself? No, that wouldn't make much sense. Guess y'all
have to do it for me.
Adam Thornton
Stu George <fakea...@fakedomain.com> wrote:
>What I dont understand is why someone would enter something so bad
>into the competition? The same thing goes for the other purposefully
>bad entries...
>
>what point do they serve? I feel it kinda denigrates the competition.
>or is it designed to make mediocre games look better than they are
>by virtue of unbalancing the competitive ratings?
I can't answer on the Just-Plain-Bad end of the spectrum, but I have
been known to write a Comp Entry that was trying for the Golden Banana
of Discord (highest standard deviation in scores). I did this because I
find it amusing to cruelly shatter carefully-nurtured player
expectations, and that's because I'm a jerk.
Jacek Pudlo probably would have something to contribute to that as
well, if he chooses. He actually WON the Banana, of course, whereas I
only placed third.
Adam
Adam Thornton
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It's not Kibo. It doesn't magically show up if you speak its name, nor
>(to my knowledge) does it grep USENET.
Is it Dan Bernstein?
And while I'm at it, HASTUR HASTUR HAST#@#)!('''NO CARRIER
Adam Thornton
I was unaware that dykes had a monolithic writing style. I think I
would have little difficulty differentiating the works of Sappho from,
say, Pat Califia.
Adam
Adam Thornton
J. Robinson Wheeler <j...@jrwdigitalmedia.com> wrote:
>Likewise, it is a splash of cold water that it takes A.P.Hill, with
>his fool-on-the-hill's perspective, to exhort us to celebrate IF.
>What else are we here for?
Cheerio pissing, for one.
Adam
Stevie B
Of course writing in ancient Greek introduces a certain panache, but
your most excellent point is valid nonetheless.
I understand that the Grand Society of Literary Lesbians is planning to
have a fund-raising dinner later this month, and their spokeswoman
distributed a press release saying that neither Sappho nor Pat Califia
will be in attendance this year. Sappho, per usual, is indisposed (her
RSVP may have said something about her lying in the ground and baking
bagels, but this could be a glitch in the translation) and Pat Califia
is on vacation with one of the black monoliths from "2001, A Space
Odyssey" (apparently she is researching a series of monolithic essays
on teaching extraterrestrial artifacts to lick her boots). The
Lesbian fund-raiser sounds like it should be reasonably high-spirited,
but cheerio pissing is not on the agenda since no one except Sappho
knows where to get the kind of bagels that have big enough holes.
Now I'm a big believer in the empirical method, so I sent both Sappho
and Pat an e-mail to see if they could guess Autymn D.C.'s gender just
by looking at her posting moniker. At first I had some trouble getting
their e-mail addresses, but Dan Bernstein was glad to help me out when
I told him how popular he is around here. Anyway, Sappho was the first
to reply. I haven't found anyone to translate it yet. 93% of the
people in my survey were fairly certain that her response had nothing
to do with bagels, but most of those are AOL users who over the years
have written purposely bad IF Comp entries, so what do they know.
(That last sentence is untrue, but I didn't want to be accused of being
completely off-topic.)
Pat Califia's response was more straight-forward. She pointed out that
the use of initials for a middle name and last name is atypical, so it
is not at all clear whether Autymn is a first name as opposed to a last
name. And the portion of Autymn's e-mail address that reads "lysdexia"
is equally non-gender-specific. Pat concluded that Autymn is probably
female, although she admits that there is an element of wishful
thinking involved in this guess since she would really like Autymn to
come over to her woodshed and repeat her nasty comments about the
writing style of dykes to her face. Pat says she'll send along
directions to the woodshed after she's done training the monolith.
Adam Thornton
Stevie B <StevenB...@aol.com> wrote:
[...]
>Pat concluded that Autymn is probably
>female, although she admits that there is an element of wishful
>thinking involved in this guess since she would really like Autymn to
>come over to her woodshed and repeat her nasty comments about the
>writing style of dykes to her face. Pat says she'll send along
>directions to the woodshed after she's done training the monolith.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY RECOMMEND THIS GOOD AND/OR SERVICE. I FIND YOUR IDEAS
INTRIGUING AND WISH TO SUBSCIBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER.
Adam
Stevie B
Adam Thornton wrote:
> In article <1132619797.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Stevie B <StevenB...@aol.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
> >female, although she admits that there is an element of wishful
> >thinking involved in this guess since she would really like Autymn to
> >come over to her woodshed and repeat her nasty comments about the
> >writing style of dykes to her face. Pat says she'll send along
> >directions to the woodshed after she's done training the monolith.
>
> INTRIGUING AND WISH TO SUBSCIBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER.
>
> Adam
Thank you for the celebrity endorsement! Now I'll have to start a
newsletter. I probably will have some time to get one started after
the holidays when I finish playing the purposefully bad IF Comp
entries. And after that I'm going to play "Finding Martin" (mostly
because Autymn has trashed it, so it must be good). But I promise a
newsletter right after that. If only I could come up with a good
name...
Derek Ray
Unsurprisingly, I fail to see it. Ahhh. :)
Derek Ray
> This is not terribly surprising considering that she had already posted
> to this thread previously, but those who have her in their killfiles
> probably wouldn't notice.
You are correct.
> We can't really blame her for responding
> negatively since she was being so obviously baited, although not
> necessarily most strongly by the person she chose to reply to. I
We can blame him just fine. He spends his time either responding
negatively, or with a one-line grammar/spelling nitpick. And when you
accost him, he absolutely loses his tree.
(I'll believe it's a woman when it shows me photo I.D. I deem this
unlikely to ever happen.)
> People sure do disagree a lot about issues such as
> top-posting/bottom-posting and what does or does not constitute
> unacceptably rude behavior on Usenet. In my opinion, nitpicking and
> correcting others on petty issues is worthy of only three lashes with
> the wet noodle. Being the first one to escalate the hostility of the
> exchange into the vulgar language red-zone (ie., Black Speech) deserves
> a dumping upon the head of the rest of the noodles.
You poor thing. Had you never heard those words before?
Overstated, rigidly enforced civility was commonplace back when duels
were commonplace and everyone was armed; it went out of fashion about
that time as well, simply because it wasn't productive. People spent so
much time worrying about how they were going to say something, they
never got around to saying it.
Ever visit Japan? Excellent case study, the Japanese.
In any case, I don't have time to waste sugarcoating my words, and I
don't have tone of voice available to properly express disdain. Those
who can't handle this probably couldn't handle that much progressive
thinking anyway.
James Mitchelhill
<snip>
> In any case, I don't have time to waste sugarcoating my words,
Translation: "I consider civility a burden. The amount of effort
required to moderate my behaviour to show a respect for others that I do
not possess is beyond my capabilities."
> and I
> don't have tone of voice available to properly express disdain.
Translation: "I actually enjoy my lack of manners. It makes me feel
superior to people who take care in the language they use."
> Those
> who can't handle this probably couldn't handle that much progressive
> thinking anyway.
Translation: "I believe that people who object to my lack of social
skills are repressed. I would rather attack anyone who suggests
otherwise, than consider for a moment that I, myself, could be at fault.
I am oblivious to the fact that their objections may be founded upon
common standards of behaviour that have evolved to promote productive
and enjoyable conversation and discussion on a topic of shared
interest."
--
James Mitchelhill
ja...@disorderfeed.net
http://disorderfeed.net
Adam Thornton
"Beatrice" is a good name.
So is "The Bella Coola Herald."
Adam
Stevie B
> You poor thing. Had you never heard those words before?
Actually I've missed out on a lot of the cultural dynamic here because
I've been spending so much time in Japan. Making smart-assed remarks
in Kyoto can be an enlightening experience. People kept dumping
Yakisoba on my head, which wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be.
The sumo wrestler who sat on my rented Mitsubishi was also something
of a motivation for me to come back to the good old US of A, but I've
been feeling much better since I got the casts off my knees.
> In any case, I don't have time to waste sugarcoating my words...
Fair enough. You made a good point about the PDAs and you use really
cool words like "grep". I shouldn't give you a hard time. Besides,
Autymn is LOTS more fun to pick on than you are anyway. Have a nice
day.
I don't suppose you'd like to subscribe to my newsletter? What's that
you
said? My, my, now there's a word I HAVEN'T heard before. Let me
write that one down. How do you spell that? Ouch!! Not the knees,
please! Yes, yes, I agree that people who tell other people not to
top-post should be locked away in a Venezualian dungeon and forced to
play IF involving dragons...
Stevie B
Wow. Nice job with the translation work. Can you do ancient Greek,
too? I got this e-mail from Sappho that might have something to do
with bagels...
Stevie B
Excellent suggestions, much better than "DragonPants" or "Die,
Motherf*cker, Die." The winning name will be announced on the 31st of
this month, weather permitting.
Derek Ray
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:06:52 -0500, Derek Ray wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> In any case, I don't have time to waste sugarcoating my words,
>
> Translation: "I consider civility a burden. The amount of effort
> required to moderate my behaviour to show a respect for others that I do
> not possess is beyond my capabilities."
Wrong.
Actual translation: "I consider wasting time on civility in USENET
posts to be exactly that: wasted time. Half the people who will read my
posts are neither bright nor literate enough to understand them, and
half the remainder will argue the opposite side solely for the sake of
arguing. Of the quarter which is left, the ones who agree will not
respond as they likely have nothing to say."
>> and I
>> don't have tone of voice available to properly express disdain.
>
> Translation: "I actually enjoy my lack of manners. It makes me feel
> superior to people who take care in the language they use."
Wrong.
Actual translation: "In person, I can turn away from fools and continue
the conversation with people who are capable of and interested in
focusing on the subject at hand -- and the point gets across quite well.
I would waste no further time talking to someone who, for example,
interrupted me repeatedly to correct my pronunciation: such a pedant is
obviously too busy hearing his own voices to actually listen to anything
else being said."
>> Those
>> who can't handle this probably couldn't handle that much progressive
>> thinking anyway.
>
> Translation: "I believe that people who object to my lack of social
> skills are repressed. I would rather attack anyone who suggests
> otherwise, than consider for a moment that I, myself, could be at fault.
> I am oblivious to the fact that their objections may be founded upon
> common standards of behaviour that have evolved to promote productive
> and enjoyable conversation and discussion on a topic of shared
> interest."
Wrong.
Actual translation: "I think that people who complain about the tone of
the message while avoiding responding to the message itself are
intimidated by both the content of the message and the speaker, and are
lashing out in an attempt to salvage their fragile egos after having
realized the world is not all flowers and bunnies, and not everyone will
either agree with them or speak civilly to them 100% of the time. Rather
than engage in the slight risk of verbal interplay where gracious, they
might hear another naughty word, they retreat to their ivory tower where
butterflies and unicorns frolic and say "Gosh!" and "Darn!" when they
stub their toes."
So, have I summed up your OWN non-responsive contribution quite nicely?
Stevie B
Don't forget to bring the flowers and the bunnies. We'll need
something for refreshments.
Derek Ray
>> You poor thing. Had you never heard those words before?
>
> I've been spending so much time in Japan. Making smart-assed remarks
> in Kyoto can be an enlightening experience. People kept dumping
I was more referring to the tendency of the Japanese to avoid, at all
costs, creating situations where one person must lose face. It's a
rather fascinating contrast to the "in-your-face" style of the US.
> Fair enough. You made a good point about the PDAs and you use really
> cool words like "grep". I shouldn't give you a hard time. Besides,
> Autymn is LOTS more fun to pick on than you are anyway. Have a nice
> day.
Well, he's obliging enough to absolutely lose his tree when you poke at
him (or when you ignore him). It's good stuff; much better than 'CATS'.
> please! Yes, yes, I agree that people who tell other people not to
> top-post should be locked away in a Venezualian dungeon and forced to
> play IF involving dragons...
I think he already forced himself to beat that one.
James Mitchelhill
> James Mitchelhill wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:06:52 -0500, Derek Ray wrote:
<snip>
>> Translation: "I consider civility a burden. The amount of effort
>> required to moderate my behaviour to show a respect for others that I do
>> not possess is beyond my capabilities."
>
> Wrong.
>
> Actual translation: "I consider wasting time on civility in USENET
> posts to be exactly that: wasted time.
Translation: "I consider civility a burden."
> Half the people who will read my
> posts are neither bright nor literate enough to understand them, and
> half the remainder will argue the opposite side solely for the sake of
> arguing. Of the quarter which is left, the ones who agree will not
> respond as they likely have nothing to say."
Translation: "The amount of effort required to moderate my behaviour to
show a respect for others that I do not possess is beyond my
capabilities."
>>> and I
>>> don't have tone of voice available to properly express disdain.
>>
>> Translation: "I actually enjoy my lack of manners. It makes me feel
>> superior to people who take care in the language they use."
>
> Wrong.
>
> Actual translation: "In person, I can turn away from fools and continue
> the conversation with people who are capable of and interested in
> focusing on the subject at hand -- and the point gets across quite well.
Translation: "I actually enjoy my lack of manners. It makes me feel
superior to people who take care in the language they use."
> I would waste no further time talking to someone who, for example,
> interrupted me repeatedly to correct my pronunciation: such a pedant is
> obviously too busy hearing his own voices to actually listen to anything
> else being said."
All new Translation: "I enjoy making specious comparisons."
>>> Those
>>> who can't handle this probably couldn't handle that much progressive
>>> thinking anyway.
>>
>> Translation: "I believe that people who object to my lack of social
>> skills are repressed. I would rather attack anyone who suggests
>> otherwise, than consider for a moment that I, myself, could be at fault.
>> I am oblivious to the fact that their objections may be founded upon
>> common standards of behaviour that have evolved to promote productive
>> and enjoyable conversation and discussion on a topic of shared
>> interest."
>
> Wrong.
>
> Actual translation: "I think that people who complain about the tone of
> the message while avoiding responding to the message itself are
> intimidated by both the content of the message and the speaker,
Translation: "I actually enjoy my lack of manners. It makes me feel
superior to people who take care in the language they use."
> and are
> lashing out in an attempt to salvage their fragile egos after having
> realized the world is not all flowers and bunnies, and not everyone will
> either agree with them or speak civilly to them 100% of the time. Rather
> than engage in the slight risk of verbal interplay where gracious, they
> might hear another naughty word, they retreat to their ivory tower where
> butterflies and unicorns frolic and say "Gosh!" and "Darn!" when they
> stub their toes."
>
> So, have I summed up your OWN non-responsive contribution quite nicely?
Translation: I would rather attack anyone who suggests otherwise, than
consider for a moment that I, myself, could be at fault.
[I wasn't quite expecting for you to make it *quite* that easy, Derek.
And apologies to everyone else for this little outburst. I will not
reply to any more messages in this sub-thread. Fortunately, my work here
is done.]
Autymn D. C.
> Adam Thornton wrote:
> > In article <1132568501....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > Autymn D. C. <lysd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >you write like a
> > >teeny-weeny loser.. or a dyke.
> >
> > I was unaware that dykes had a monolithic writing style. I think I
> > would have little difficulty differentiating the works of Sappho from,
> > say, Pat Califia.
> Of course writing in ancient Greek introduces a certain panache, but
> your most excellent point is valid nonetheless.
No, it's not. I said /dyke/, not /lesbian/ or /Lesbian/. Sappho was
not a dyke. Califia, given the moniker, is likely. BTW, Califia is
the pagan African warrior-goddess that gave the state that I live in
its name: California. Oddly even, it looks like the name came from the
even-older Arabic "calif". (I don't see what California has to do with
them, but it's nicer that it has pagan grounds rather than not.)
> Now I'm a big believer in the empirical method, so I sent both Sappho
> and Pat an e-mail to see if they could guess Autymn D.C.'s gender just
> by looking at her posting moniker. At first I had some trouble getting
> their e-mail addresses, but Dan Bernstein was glad to help me out when
> I told him how popular he is around here. Anyway, Sappho was the first
> to reply. I haven't found anyone to translate it yet. 93% of the
> people in my survey were fairly certain that her response had nothing
> to do with bagels, but most of those are AOL users who over the years
> have written purposely bad IF Comp entries, so what do they know.
> (That last sentence is untrue, but I didn't want to be accused of being
> completely off-topic.)
You're writing some interesting IF even here. But forget guessing. My
laptop has sound-in; I could record me saying something against Derek,
to Derek. As it seems he's ignoring me, you can send it. But what
should I say? I don't think that anyone cares about his posts; his
name sounds like a hick's, so his opinion is worthless. This works
better if I know his state. What else can I use?
> Pat Califia's response was more straight-forward. She pointed out that
> the use of initials for a middle name and last name is atypical, so it
> is not at all clear whether Autymn is a first name as opposed to a last
> name. And the portion of Autymn's e-mail address that reads "lysdexia"
> is equally non-gender-specific. Pat concluded that Autymn is probably
> female, although she admits that there is an element of wishful
> thinking involved in this guess since she would really like Autymn to
> come over to her woodshed and repeat her nasty comments about the
> writing style of dykes to her face. Pat says she'll send along
> directions to the woodshed after she's done training the monolith.
If you can find any last name that looks like that, as well as explain
why I would sign with my elided last name rather than first, and don't
put a comma between the alleged last name and initials, then I will
stop writing sentences like this. Another nasty-but-true comment is
that dykes can't spell, and don't care.
-Aut
Derek Ray
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:56:59 -0500, Derek Ray wrote:
>
>> Actual translation: "I consider wasting time on civility in USENET
>> posts to be exactly that: wasted time.
>
> Translation: "I consider civility a burden."
Simply stamping your foot and repeating yourself doesn't actually make
you right, as many other five-year-olds have learned to their great
dismay. Let me know when you have perfected your mindreading skills;
until then, you remain wrong.
Thanks for playing; we have some lovely parting gifts for you.
> [I wasn't quite expecting for you to make it *quite* that easy, Derek.
Easy to do what? Pretend you can know what I'm thinking? Delude
yourself into believing that you're an amateur psychologist? Or simply
throw a small tantrum when I show you up in public after you try to be
cutesy and mouth off?
It would have been far easier for you to simply read what was said,
reluctantly admit that it was true, and then move on, since you have
nothing to contribute to the actual discussion.
> And apologies to everyone else for this little outburst. I will not
> reply to any more messages in this sub-thread. Fortunately, my work here
> is done.]
Standard Internet Approach #134: When defeated, simply claim you've won
and return your head to the sand.
Again, let me know how those mind-reading classes work out for you. And
hey, don't forget to keep me up to date on your progress with bringing
IF a greater degree of popularity. I'm sure we'll all be fascinated by
your new groundbreaking approach to the concept.