Selections for Children
Jonadab the Unsightly One
Time was when I would have consulted Deja for past threads on this,
but Deja is raising its idiocy quotient with increasingly faithful
regularity these days, so I'll risk repeating a past thread...
I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in
the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games. Mostly
the kids play Bugdom and Franklin stuff and so forth, but I'd
like to have a handful of more intellectual stuff sitting
around just in case any children should be so inclined. One
can hope. Anyway, it doesn't have to be aimed at *young*
children necessarily -- we have junior high age kids playing
the games all the time. But I'm looking for suggestions of
IF (preferably all z-code, since I'd like to install just
one terp, although I could maybe be talked into one other
system) that is not in any appreciable way inappropriate
for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong
language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are
trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
*their* definition of corruption.)
So far I've come up with Toyshop (the Inform example game,
which is really more of a demonstration than a game).
Other suggestions?
- jonadab
Jake Wildstrom
Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
>play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong
>language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are
>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>*their* definition of corruption.)
>
>So far I've come up with Toyshop (the Inform example game,
>which is really more of a demonstration than a game).
A Bear's Night Out is a nice one. You could always put Zorks on there too.
Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).
Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
toned-down language in the first scene.
Planetfall would be very good too if you have a spare legal copy.
Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum. The sex
scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Ross Presser
One).wrote.posted.offered:
>Other suggestions?
Mother Loose.
Zero Sum Game.
Photopia. (Yes, it's possible to be inappropriate, but it doesn't get
you any satisfying response, and it probably won't occur to most kids.)
Wishbringer.
--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
A blank is ya know, like, a tab or a space. A name is like wow! a
sequence of ASCII letters, oh, baby, digits, like, or underscores,
fer shure, beginnin' with a letter or an underscore.
Sarah E. Bergstrom
: Other suggestions?
Adventure (the grandaddy of 'em all, and allows for a lot of exploration),
many of the "mansion crawls", though I'm blanking on a lot of the names of
those -- there was a pretty simple but well-coded one here a while back
that involved finding some geometric shapes. I think Not Just an Ordinary
Ballerina probably would work.
Spider and Web would work with older kids, and I think kids too young to
get the message or get to the disturbing parts would get bored before they
figured it out.
If a completely bugfixed version of The Water Bird has been released,
I think it might be a good choice.
The original Zorks, and Spiritwrak.
If you have a copy that can be used w/o copyright issues, Journey and Zork
Zero might be good since the graphics will catch kids' eyes.
*Sarah*
--
"It's like those cartoons of the roadrunner and me. They get shown time
and time again, and the same thing happens every time the cartoon gets
shown. It doesn't ever change, no matter how many times you show the
cartoon. The roadrunner always gets away. You know what? I wouldn't
have it any other way. I just love that cartoon even though I know I am
going to get blown to bits, flattened, made a fool of every time."
---Webster Kitchell, in "God's Dog: Conversations with Coyote"
***Sarah Bergstrom <sar...@sccs.swarthmore.edu>***
Kathleen M. Fischer
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
> But I'm looking for suggestions of
> IF (preferably all z-code, since I'd like to install just
> one terp, although I could maybe be talked into one other
> system) that is not in any appreciable way inappropriate
> for children.
Mother Loose
Kathleen
--
-- The Cove - Best of Landscape, Interactive Fiction Art Show 2000
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Cove.z5
--
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jason Compton
: Wishbringer.
Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline
aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jason Compton
: Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).
Think like a paranoid parent: You have to drink to get anywhere in the
game.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jason Compton
: The original Zorks
Another nutty fundamentalist alert:
<with spoiler space just in case>
In Zork I, you have to perform a pseudo-religious ceremony
In Zork II, there's a lot of "occult" magic.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jake Wildstrom
And in Witness there's the matter of Mrs. Linder and Stiles's affair. Also,
even if you don't see that as a problem, you probably want to turn on the
Tandy bit.
Jason Compton
: And in Witness there's the matter of Mrs. Linder and Stiles's affair. Also,
: even if you don't see that as a problem, you probably want to turn on the
: Tandy bit.
True, although it's off-camera. Decent enough point.
Does the Tandy bit affect the plot? Or just keep you from getting
responses to dirty suggestions?
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Adam Atkinson
>I just don't want occult activity [...]
>Parents are
>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>*their* definition of corruption.)
How loony are these parents? Is Colossal Cave unacceptable
on the grounds that XYZZY, being a magic word, constitutes
occult activity?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
alt.folklore.computers FAQ: http://www.best.com/~wilson/faq/
Domokov
choices for this.
Ian F.
Jon Ingold
Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:8n19t6$mvl$1...@flood.xnet.com...
> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.
Jon
Jake Wildstrom
There are 12 places in Witness where the Tandy code is used:
2 of them are responses to destructive activities, which normally merits the
response "Vandalism is for private dicks, not famous police detectives". The
Tandy bit changes "dicks" to "eyes".
When you ASK STILES ABOUT PHONG, he tells you "He seems straight, but I don't
really trust slanteyes.". 'slanteyes' becomes 'his kind'.
ASK MONICA ABOUT MURDER yields "Isn't it obvious? That bastard Stiles squibbed
him off!". 'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.
Similarly, if before you accuse her you ASK MONICA ABOUT STILES: "That bastard
who killed Dad? I'd spit in his face if it was worth the trouble." As above,
'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.
And after you accuse her, she'll say "That poor bastard. First he fell in love
with Mother, a married woman; then he actually trusted her husband. I don't know
what he uses for brains." As above, 'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.
ASK MONICA ABOUT PHONG: "He's a right gee, no matter what some people say about
his race." 'race' becomes 'kind'.
Most actions you try to take on Monica result in her saying:
"I don't know what game you're playing, Detective, but count me out. If you think
I'm just a dumb twist, think again." 'twist' becomes 'twit'.
If a game fails to SAVE (or SUSPEND) it says that "Your story couldn't be
suspended. Consult your instruction manual if necessary." Tandy added
"or Reference Card" to that phrase.
If you surprise Monica in the workshop, she says "My God, you gave me a start!".
The word "God" is removed in Tandy.
The VERSION command under Tandy says "Licensed to Tandy Corporation."
Somewhere in the game is the phrase "Necrophilia went out with fur coats!" which
is Tandyified to "You can't be that desperate!". I have no idea what input yields
this result. Anyone? I've tried the obvious actions.
Adam Atkinson
>Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
>anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
You haven't met many loonies, then. There are fundamentalist wackos
who would object to any portrayal of magic. And indeed to the teaching
of foreign languages in schools on the grounds that English was the
language the Bible was written in, and is thus good enough for their
children.
I don't know if the stories were true or just urban legends, but when
I lived in Houston I saw stuff about parents objecting to "The Diary
of Anne Frank" on the grounds that it promoted tolerance of other
religions. Clearly, such people would _have_ to object to "The Wizard
of Oz", "Mary Poppins", the Narnia books, "The Phoenix and the
Carpet", "Five Children and It", "Peter Pan", ...
>There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.
You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?
Have a look at http://www.capalert.com/
I'm not sure if it's a parody or not, but it gives the, er, "right"
idea.
You must have seen stuff in the news about some ultra-Christian
schools in the UK banning Harry Potter?
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
XYZZY
Jason Compton
: Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
: anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
: There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.
To me, sure! Not to everyone, though.
And I'm virtually certain I've seen Narnia show up on school library
banned lists.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jake Wildstrom
Jon Ingold <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
>anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian morals". I
really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some sense into
them.
Kayrun
whole story!)
Arcum Dagsson
wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
> In article <8n1esj$275$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Jon Ingold <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
> >anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
>
> I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian
> morals". I
> really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some
> sense into
> them.
Narnia. Contrary to Christian morals. Really.
When I reread "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe", I found that to
get it more Christian, you'd need to change all occurances of "Aslan"
to "Jesus"...
Amazing what nonsense people can think sometimes...
--
--Arcum Dagsson
"You say there's a horse in your bathroom, and all you can do is stand
there naming Beatles songs?"
jjkc
It's about a cat. No magic. I liked it, and I'm sure would have liked
it even at 10-12.
-Jim
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
> I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in
> the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games.... But I'm looking for suggestions of
> IF
>
TenthStone
>In article <39935af...@news.bright.net>,
>Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>>for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
>>play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong
>>language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are
>>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>>*their* definition of corruption.)
>
>Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
>toned-down language in the first scene.
(spoilers)
Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
*is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
drunk driver. That's hardly a kiddie theme; I think most parents
would prefer to broach that subject themselves and at their own pace.
----------------
The Imperturbable TenthStone
tenth...@hotmail.com pie...@humour.com
Torbjörn Andersson
> Somewhere in the game is the phrase "Necrophilia went out with fur
> coats!" which is Tandyified to "You can't be that desperate!". I have
> no idea what input yields this result. Anyone? I've tried the obvious
> actions.
I remember getting that message. I don't know if there's any other
way, but try taking the corpse's shoes.
Torbjörn
Andrew Plotkin
> On 11 Aug 2000 14:09:07 GMT, wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
>
>>Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
>>toned-down language in the first scene.
>
> (spoilers)
>
> Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
> *is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
> drunk driver.
So is _Bridge to Terabithia_ (s/drunk driver/swimming accident/) and we
read *that* in elementary school.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Carl Muckenhoupt
wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
> You could always put Zorks on there too.
I've seen complaints about occultism in the Zorks - specifically, the
ritual to enter the Land of the Dead in Zork 1 and the whole Demon
business in Zork 2.
> Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a
version with
> toned-down language in the first scene.
Possibly through use of the tandy bit?
> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum.
The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.
True. It's done in a very Hollywood-censor kind of way. Essentially,
the hero and the love interest kiss, and next thing you know it's
morning.
Another suggestion: "Firebird", by Bonnie Montgomery. It's based on
Russian fairy tales, and I remember it as being accessible to children.
There is a certain amount of violence in it - what's a fairy tale
without an ogre-slaying or two, after all? - but I think you'd probably
find it acceptable. Give it a try.
Carl Muckenhoupt
> >Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never
heard
> >anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
>
> I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian
morals". I
> really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some
sense into
> them.
Wow. That's like calling _Animal Farm_ communist propaganda.
Carl Muckenhoupt
> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum.
The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.
Another comment on this: As with "Hitchhiker's Guide", there is a scene
in Jigsaw that requires the player character to consume alcohol.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
there, but...
> The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline
> aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
> Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.
Early-on is the worst time, because that's what most of the
kids will see.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> A Bear's Night Out is a nice one.
I'll check on that one. I had forgotten about it.
> You could always put Zorks on there too.
A little too much, perhaps.
> Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).
I was looking for things I could install without a purchase order.
I'm just the computer guy; I normally don't make buying decisions
(although they did recently let me write up the K&R and a handful
of other books).
> Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
> toned-down language in the first scene.
I'm going to read through Photopia again and see how appropriate
I think it is or is not.
> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum. The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.
I never liked Jigsaw. Not sure why, since Curses was my
all-time favourite.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Another suggestion: "Firebird", by Bonnie Montgomery. It's based on
> Russian fairy tales, and I remember it as being accessible to children.
> There is a certain amount of violence in it - what's a fairy tale
> without an ogre-slaying or two, after all? - but I think you'd probably
> find it acceptable. Give it a try.
I'll have a look at it.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Adventure (the grandaddy of 'em all, and allows for a lot of exploration),
You know, I wasn't thinking of it, but it might just work.
> I think Not Just an Ordinary
> Ballerina probably would work.
[Reads review]
Okay, add requiring the player to perform criminal breaking
and entering and theiving activities to the list of things
I don't want in the game. Picking up objects that are
sitting around is one thing, a firmly established IF
tradition, but forcing your way into a shopping mall is
something else again.
> Spider and Web would work with older kids, and I think
> kids too young to get the message or get to the
> disturbing parts would get bored before they
> figured it out.
Hmmm... I'll think about that one. But really while
I said, "difficulty doesn't bother me" I didn't mean
that *no* quantity of difficulty was too much. Next
people will be suggesting the Phoenix games.
> If a completely bugfixed version of The Water Bird has been released,
> I think it might be a good choice.
"the water bird" is too general for search engines. Where
can I find this one?
> If you have a copy that can be used w/o copyright issues, Journey and Zork
> Zero might be good since the graphics will catch kids' eyes.
If I wanted graphics I've got Bugdom and Nanosaur and so on and
so forth. Not quite up to the level of PC games, but I don't
think an iMac can handle that really. They're terribly slow.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> A Day for Soft Food.
>
> It's about a cat.
Cool. That might be well received.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> How loony are these parents? Is Colossal Cave unacceptable
> on the grounds that XYZZY, being a magic word, constitutes
> occult activity?
No, I wouldn't worry about that.
How loony? In all probability nobody would complain about
I/O, but I don't want to chance it, at least not without
getting a better feel for how IF will be received. Call
me paranoid.
I might decide to relent on the scroll-collecting type
of magic if initial experiments go well in terms of the
games being somewhat popular. Popularity is a very
esteemed thing around here and can make up for a lot.
Which is loony, but nevermind.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in
> the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games.
[and want to put some if on them]
It occurs to me that I don't know a great deal about Mac
interpreters, and...
I'd like for each game to have its own entry in the Panels
account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?
- jonadab
Jason Compton
:> The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline
:> aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
:> Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.
: Early-on is the worst time, because that's what most of the
: kids will see.
Yeah, but there are plenty of young adult stories that deal with murder
and murder investigations, some more grisly than old man Linder being shot
in the chest (View From the Cherry Tree, which I believe may have been a
Newberry award winner, springs to mind, in which an old lady is hung from
her binocular straps in front of the protagonist.)
As you say, you want stuff that's free, but I bet they'd be OK.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
KayCee
...KayCee
"Jonadab the Unsightly One" <jon...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:39952bd7...@news.bright.net...
>
> "the water bird" is too general for search engines. Where
> can I find this one?
>
> - jonadab
Stephen Rogers
The cat's name in that book was Son of a Bitch. SOB for short.
Stephen Granade
> Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > : Wishbringer.
> >
> > Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> > poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> > involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
>
> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> even flinch.
Not all parents. There has been a hue and cry from some parents about
the occult influences of Harry Potter.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About Interactive Fiction
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com
Stephen Granade
> Winter Wonderland and The Arrival from past competitions both seem
> like obvious choices for this.
Now I'm really interested in knowing how kids would respond to
Arrival.
Jon Ingold
> Wow. That's like calling _Animal Farm_ communist propaganda.
Animal Farm isn't a comment on communism in general, it's a comment on
Russia circa 1920.
Of course, that could be *interpreted* as a comment on communism.
Jon
Jason Compton
: Jason Compton wrote:
:> in the chest (View From the Cherry Tree, which I believe may have been a
:> Newberry award winner, springs to mind, in which an old lady is hung from
:> her binocular straps in front of the protagonist.)
:>
: The cat's name in that book was Son of a Bitch. SOB for short.
Ahah! See, I knew I was on to something.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Paul O'Brian
> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> even flinch.
Oh, don't they?
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/00/01/st012722.html
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter/
http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_04.htm
http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/genl/A0008833.html
Those came up in the first 10 hits of a .3-second search on "harry potter
parents occult." I'm sure if you're interested, you could find a *lot*
more.
--
Paul O'Brian obr...@colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
The pulse-pounding, electrifying, edge-of-your-seat event you've been waiting
for is here! Yes, SPAG #21 is out! http://www.sparkynet.com/spag
Jason Compton
: On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
:> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
:> even flinch.
: Oh, don't they?
It was a no-brainer that this stuff would happen...our friend is just
lucky enough not to have encountered the problem in his (?) library
district just yet.
Anyway, if I was completely freaking nuts like these people, I imagine I
would find, say, Enchanter even more offensive than a Harry Potter book,
because in Harry Potter, kids are only reading ABOUT occult forces,
whereas in Enchanter, they in the first person are encouraged and in fact
compelled (if they want to get anywhere in the game) to personally choose
to take those actions.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jason Compton
: Other suggestions?
Since I've contributed mightily to taking this thread off-topic, might I
also suggest:
- A Change In the Weather
- Spacestation
- Vindaloo (not necessarily a great game, but hey, they'll be exposed to
foreign food!)
- Some Scott Adams adventures would probably be OK, but you'd have to
check
(and they're freeware, so you don't have to worry)
-
Of course, if you want to be popular with the kids, just put Blow Job
Drifter up and be done with it. :)
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Dan Knapp
>banned lists.
'Cause Christianity isn't considered neutral by everybody. The
librarians I've known, school or otherwise, have all been strong
activists against banned lists of any sort, happily.
--
| Dan Knapp, Knight of the Random Seed
| http://www.angband.org/~dankna/
| ONES WHO DOES NOT HAVE TRIFORCE CAN'T GO IN.
Unknown
Unsightly One) wrote:
>It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
>even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
>even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
>what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
>there, but...
Acutally I just read an article in the local paper where I live (AJC)
and there is a pretty big amount of hubbub going on about those books.
Oh course I live in the veritable buckle of the bible-belt, but these
people are just plain looney. They say that the lightning bolt on
Harry's head is an "S" for satan and that it teaches kids about the
occult and so on and so forth. I find that really creepy that this
kind of thought still lives on in this day and age. I read all the HP
books and I find them absolutely wonderful. Great light fantasy that I
would have no problem giving to my children (if I had any). Oh well,
this is completely off-topic so I am gonna stop here.
Jason Compton
:>And I'm virtually certain I've seen Narnia show up on school library
:>banned lists.
: 'Cause Christianity isn't considered neutral by everybody.
Yeah, except that I don't think it was being banned for its Christian
allegorical components--more the sword 'n sorcery bits.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Mother Loose.
Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
determine how to implement it.
Oh, and it seems appropriate enough for children, too, that
I might include it, which is a nice bonus.
And I never knew Irene had *finished* a game. I only knew
about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.
Only trouble is, I don't know most of the nursery rhymes,
so I'm having trouble "getting" anything much. I think
I understand the egg and the wolf. The stuff in the
village goes right over my head, I'm afraid. But probably
a good percentage of kids know the nursery rhymes well
enough to do somewhat better.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
I've never played Wishbringer. How occult is its magic?
Is it fairy-tale magic, scroll-collecting magic, or the
genuine article? I wouldn't worry much about a magic bean
that grows into a beanstalk and a harp that plays itself, for
example. I have not made a final decision about scrolls and
elves and that sort of thing, and thet nature of the spells
might matter. I definitely want to avoid real occult stuff
(ouja, tarot, channelling, ...). I like Curses, but I first
saw it at age 21 or so after having developed some discernment,
and I'm not entirely sure a lot of parents would be pleased
with its content for children.
- jonadab
Jason Compton
: I've never played Wishbringer. How occult is its magic?
: Is it fairy-tale magic, scroll-collecting magic, or the
: genuine article?
<spoilers ahead>
Each spell (well, wish) requires two things: a magic stone (for all the
wishes) and a wish-specific object that you employ or consume before
making the wish. (like an umbrella and the stone let you wish for rain,
etc.) It's not chanting and sacrificing virgins magic.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Joachim Froholt
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
You might want to try Ralph as well (this one is about a dog) - although
some parents might get a bit freaked out by the fact that you can dig
holes in the lawn (and worse, the herb garden) ;-)
Joachim
Karl Ove Hufthammer
news:l09cpsk3ssqr6je6c...@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:24:59 GMT, jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the
| Unsightly One) wrote:
|
| >It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
| >even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
| >even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
| >what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
| >there, but...
|
| Acutally I just read an article in the local paper where I live (AJC)
| and there is a pretty big amount of hubbub going on about those books.
Yup. And chain letters circulating <URL:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa080900b.
htm >. Scary ... :(
--#
Karl Ove Hufthammer
Stark
Paul O'Brian <obr...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
>
>> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't even
>> flinch.
>
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/00/01/st012722.html
> http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter/
> http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_04.htm
> http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/genl/A0008833.html
>
> Those came up in the first 10 hits of a .3-second search on "harry
> potter parents occult." I'm sure if you're interested, you could find a
> *lot* more.
>
And, of course, not forgetting:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html
(warning: some adult content at the end...)
<grin>
Stark
paulo...@my-deja.com
> about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.
Actually, she's finished *two* games. The other one is the huge,
neverending WIP that she just barely (a matter of bytes) managed to fit
in a .z8. It's called Dangerous Curves. games/zcode/curves.z8
Paul
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Torbjörn Andersson
> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
> even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
> what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
> there, but...
Indeed. I'm not familiar with Harry Potter, but I know one of my
favorite fairy tales as a kid was the one about Hansel and Gretel,
which involves parents abandoning children, a witch, vandalism (or
whatever you'd call eating part of someone's house), cannibalism,
burning someone alive, theft, ...
Oh well. Has anyone mentioned "The One That Got Away" yet? I'd suggest
"A Change in the Weather" as another non-offensive game, but that
one's pretty frustrating...
Torbjörn
Adam Atkinson
>Indeed. I'm not familiar with Harry Potter, but I know one of my
>favorite fairy tales as a kid was the one about Hansel and Gretel,
>which involves parents abandoning children, a witch, vandalism (or
>whatever you'd call eating part of someone's house), cannibalism,
>burning someone alive, theft, ...
Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
own children on altars, genocide, ...
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
"I got the first three wrong" he said, forthrightly.
Jon Ingold
> fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
> own children on altars, genocide, ...
Yeah, that was one thing I never got: God was narked with Cain because he
wouldn't sacrifice his best goat (either that, or liked Abel because he
_did_ sacrifice his best goat). But this is a totally _different_ kind of
blood sacrifice to your pagan worship.
But as my self-appointed Christian Union "dad" in my first year at uni told
me - a lot of the beginning of the Bible is "metaphorical".
Jon
Adam Atkinson
>> Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
>> fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
>> own children on altars, genocide, ...
>Yeah, that was one thing I never got: God was narked with Cain because he
>wouldn't sacrifice his best goat (either that, or liked Abel because he
>_did_ sacrifice his best goat). But this is a totally _different_ kind of
>blood sacrifice to your pagan worship.
And the business with Abraham and Isaac was... what, exactly?
>But as my self-appointed Christian Union "dad" in my first year at uni told
>me - a lot of the beginning of the Bible is "metaphorical".
You forget that the fruitcakes we're talking about here, or some of
them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
I'm sure they'll listen to Reason. (H. Protagonist)
Jon Ingold
> them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
> bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
> these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.
Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
"hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
dating doesn't work.
She doesn't go *quite* so far as to say that pi is 3 - and that scientists
are just "lying" - which some Biblist's do (Solomon's cup is three times
round as it is across, apparently - she says it wasn't the circumference
given isn't that around the rim and it probably tapered), which is
something, as she's doing a Maths course.
It's a bit arrogant really - she says she believes it because "God saved
here life twice." Well, you can't really argue with that, I suppose. I asked
why God saved her and not my mother's friend who was hit by a train. She
said it's God's plan. I asked what God's plan was. She said we couldn't know
God's plan because it's God's plan. I said well then, how can we tell the
difference between God's plan and, say, total random chance. She didn't
answer, but I have a feeling her answer would have been "Because *I* was
saved", which sounds harsh - but then, it seems much more significant if it
happens to you yourself than someone else, doesn't it? It could hardly not
do, I don't deny that.
[ At a Mathematician's meal we had last year, I got put at one end of the
table with my Christian Union Dad, and her next to me. Neither of them
drink, I did; toward the end of the evening they were beginning to win the
argument.]
Anyway. If people want to believe this, fine. Just don't ban Harry Potter
from everyone else.
-- oh, on a related note: if the slash on Potter's head is an 'S' for Satan,
how does Satan intend to corrupt kids by this, since it's a bit
overly-subtle? You'd only notice it was an S if you thought about it, and
only attribute it to Satan if, say, you were always going to. Is the Evil
One this cunning?
Jon
Matthew T. Russotto
Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
}
}Each spell (well, wish) requires two things: a magic stone (for all the
}wishes) and a wish-specific object that you employ or consume before
}making the wish. (like an umbrella and the stone let you wish for rain,
}etc.) It's not chanting and sacrificing virgins magic.
Unless you turn the Tandy bit on, and make the Piracy opcode work the
reverse way. Then you get a few extra wishes ("Wish for sex appeal",
"Wish for riches", "Wish for power"), but you need to kill someone
each time you use them. Also the game changes its name to "Friday
the 13th: Vendredi's Revenge".
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Adam Atkinson
>Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
>"hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
>for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
>reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
>dating doesn't work.
When it's useful to do so, I claim that I believe the entire universe
was created by my cat 25 minutes ago, complete with people, their
memories, objects in motion, etc. And there's nothing you can do to
disprove it, etc. etc. Obviously, my cat created Bibles and suchlike
as a bizarre joke.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
What's yellow and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice? Zorn's lemon.
irene
>
>> Mother Loose.
>
>Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
>I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
>of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
>determine how to implement it.
Why, thank you! The status bar is easy, although it may need
some tweaking for odd rooms. In fact, here's my DrawStatusLine
code as is from ML, and you can do whatever you want with it:
-----
[ DrawStatusLine width;
@split_window 3; @set_window 1; style reverse; font off;
width = 0->33;
@set_cursor 1 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 2 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 3 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 1 2; print (name) location;
@set_cursor 1 48; print "Score: ", sline1;
@set_cursor 2 48; print "Moves: ", sline2;
if (location ~= thedark) {
! First line
if (location.nw_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 W_POS;
print "NW";
}
if (location.n_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 C_POS;
print "N";
}
if (location.ne_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 E_POS;
print "NE";
}
if (location.u_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 U_POS;
print "Up";
}
! Second line
if (location.w_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 W_POS + 1;
print "W";
}
@set_cursor 2 C_POS;
print "*";
if (location.e_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 E_POS;
print "E";
}
if (location.in_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS;
print "In";
}
if (location.out_to ~= 0 && location.in_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS + 3;
print "Out";
}
if (location.out_to ~= 0 && location.in_to == 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS;
print "Out";
}
! Third line
if (location.sw_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 W_POS;
print "SW";
}
if (location.s_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 C_POS;
print "S";
}
if (location.se_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 E_POS;
print "SE";
}
if (location.d_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 U_POS;
print "Down";
}
}
@set_cursor 1 1;
style roman;
@set_window 0;
font on;
];
-----
>Oh, and it seems appropriate enough for children, too, that
>I might include it, which is a nice bonus.
>
>And I never knew Irene had *finished* a game. I only knew
>about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.
I see Paul has already mentioned above that I've finished two
games: Mother Loose and Dangerous Curves (the huge WIP that
is done now only because I ran out of room).
>Only trouble is, I don't know most of the nursery rhymes,
>so I'm having trouble "getting" anything much. I think
>I understand the egg and the wolf. The stuff in the
>village goes right over my head, I'm afraid. But probably
>a good percentage of kids know the nursery rhymes well
>enough to do somewhat better.
Actually, you don't need to know the nursery rhymes to solve
ML. In fact, the less attention you pay to nursery rhymes in
general, the better. (Well, except for maybe the egg puzzle.)
irene
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Dan Knapp
>account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
>Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?
Well, I haven't used OS9... I imagine you could just add
the Z-code files, after using a utility such as can be found
on the if-archive ("IFConverter"?) to make sure their types
are set correctly. At any rate, after its type has been set,
double-clicking a z-code file will cause the interperter to
be opened and the game to be started.
Arcum Dagsson
<j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> -- oh, on a related note: if the slash on Potter's head is an 'S' for
> Satan,
> how does Satan intend to corrupt kids by this, since it's a bit
> overly-subtle? You'd only notice it was an S if you thought about it, and
> only attribute it to Satan if, say, you were always going to. Is the
> Evil One this cunning?
Also, if it is an S, why does the S automatically stand for "Satan"?
At last check, my dictionary has 177 pages of words starting in S in
quite small print.
The fact that the first word someone thinks of starting with S is
Satan says more about themself then anything else. (After all, it
*could* stand for Savior, or Salvation. Or Sandra. That would be
interesting...)
--
--Arcum Dagsson
"You say there's a horse in your bathroom, and all you can do is stand
there naming Beatles songs?"
Jon Ingold
> was created by my cat 25 minutes ago, complete with people, their
> memories, objects in motion, etc. And there's nothing you can do to
> disprove it, etc. etc. Obviously, my cat created Bibles and suchlike
> as a bizarre joke.
Then your cat is quite clearly insane.
Did you hit him on head 30 minutes ago?
Jon
Carl Muckenhoupt
"Jon Ingold" <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> -- oh, on a related note: if the slash on Potter's head is an 'S' for
Satan,
> how does Satan intend to corrupt kids by this, since it's a bit
> overly-subtle? You'd only notice it was an S if you thought about it,
and
> only attribute it to Satan if, say, you were always going to. Is the
Evil
> One this cunning?
Well,, anyone who's read the books knows that the scar is *supposed* to
be at least a little sinister. There's a suggestion in _The Chamber of
Secrets_, I think, that Harry absorbed some of Lord Voldemort's essence
through the spell that gave him the scar in the first place - thus his
occasional affinity with Voldemort and in particular his understanding
of the language of snakes. So yes, the scar is a symbol of evil: the
potential evil within Harry which he repeatedly overcomes through his
own strength of character.
To bring this back on topic, wouldn't Hogwarts be a terriffic setting
for an adventure game? All those secret passages and whatnot...
Peter Clifton
"Countdown to Doom" now in inform z5 format is a science fiction game which
is very good, it is quite easy for your game character to die, until you
understand the game world, but you don't have to kill anything.
Peter
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Photopia. (Yes, it's possible to be inappropriate, but it doesn't get
> you any satisfying response, and it probably won't occur to most kids.)
I thought immediately of photopia, but then I remembered the
first scene, which is just absolutely way too much for a
public library children's room. Shame. The coloured scenes
would be really quite appropriate.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> > poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> > involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
>
> Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it.
Huh?
> I've never heard
> anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
I have, but the level of magic there I wouldn't consider occult
(except, of course, for the White Witch, but she's *supposed* to
represent that influence, and even there it's fairy-tale-ised.)
> There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.
Depends on the magic. A magic horse that can fly is one thing.
I don't think I'd worry about that. Wizards and spell casting
are something else, and there's the potential for someone with
overzealous caution to complain. What I really meant by occult,
though, is the sort of thing you find in Curses, which, albeit
a really cool game, is not appropriate.
- jonadab
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> (spoilers)
>
> Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
> *is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
> drunk driver. That's hardly a kiddie theme; I think most parents
> would prefer to broach that subject themselves and at their own pace.
That's not what bothers me about Photopia. Parents are usually
sufficiently anti-drunk-driving (even the ones who do it
themselves on the weekends when they're wasted, oddly) that
I think I could get away with that. The sexual inuendo
and language in the first scene, however, are a bit much.
- jonadab
Stephen Granade
> >I'd like for each game to have its own entry in the Panels
> >account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
> >Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?
>
> Well, I haven't used OS9... I imagine you could just add
> the Z-code files, after using a utility such as can be found
> on the if-archive ("IFConverter"?)
IFDropFile, actually.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About Interactive Fiction
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com
Jake Wildstrom
Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
>Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
>fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
>own children on altars, genocide, ...
Not just "almost". Jephthah actually did sacrifice his daughter.
+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Matthew T. Russotto
Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:
}
}To bring this back on topic, wouldn't Hogwarts be a terriffic setting
}for an adventure game? All those secret passages and whatnot...
Sorry, Electronic Arts owns the rights.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Of course, if you want to be popular with the kids, just put Blow Job
> Drifter up and be done with it. :)
Or Leisure Suit Larry?
I think, perhaps, not.
- jonadab
Andrew Plotkin
> dan...@angband.org (Dan Knapp) writes:
>
>> >I'd like for each game to have its own entry in the Panels
>> >account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
>> >Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?
>>
>> Well, I haven't used OS9... I imagine you could just add
>> the Z-code files, after using a utility such as can be found
>> on the if-archive ("IFConverter"?)
>
> IFDropFile, actually.
IFDropFile sets the file's Mac type/creator codes. It was written for
MacOS 7 and later.
I haven't used anything later than 8.6. What is the Panels account, and
what are you trying to achieve by using it?
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Kathleen M. Fischer
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
> rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) wrote:
>
> > Mother Loose.
>
> Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
> I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
> of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
> determine how to implement it.
I used it for Cove and was EXTREMELY happy with it. Easy to use,
worked like a champ. A lot of bang for the buck. Maybe if more
people pester her, she'll upload to GMD. :) :) :)
Thanks again, Irene!
Kathleen
--
-- The Cove - Best of Landscape, Interactive Fiction Art Show 2000
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Cove.z5
--
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair
Ross Presser
One).wrote.posted.offered:
Maybe it could be expurgated. Any interest, Adam?
--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
A blank is ya know, like, a tab or a space. A name is like wow! a
sequence of ASCII letters, oh, baby, digits, like, or underscores,
fer shure, beginnin' with a letter or an underscore.
Adam Atkinson
>Then your cat is quite clearly insane.
Indeed
>Did you hit him on head 30 minutes ago?
I believe I did, but of course 30 minutes ago I didn't exist. I was
created, along with everything else. When I was created, I already had
the fake memory of having hit my cat on the head 5 minutes previously.
--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
The gostak distims the doshes.
irene
>In article <3995f73a...@news.bright.net>,
> jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
>> rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) wrote:
>>
>> > Mother Loose.
>>
>> Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
>> I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
>> of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
>> determine how to implement it.
>
>I used it for Cove and was EXTREMELY happy with it. Easy to use,
>worked like a champ. A lot of bang for the buck. Maybe if more
>people pester her, she'll upload to GMD. :) :) :)
Hmmm...I suppose I could do that, although I know I had to
make changes for some rooms (and for the car) in DC. I'll
take a look at it and see if I can come up with a generic
version that will work in most cases.
>Thanks again, Irene!
:) Ditto to you for the GO TO <location> stuff. Now THAT'S
something I'd like to see on GMD, but I know how game-
dependent it is!
TenthStone
wrote:
>TenthStone <tenth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11 Aug 2000 14:09:07 GMT, wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
>>
>>>Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
>>>toned-down language in the first scene.
>>
>> (spoilers)
>>
>> Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
>> *is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
>> drunk driver.
>
>So is _Bridge to Terabithia_ (s/drunk driver/swimming accident/) and we
>read *that* in elementary school.
True, although there's a difference in that 1) a car accident is quite
a bit more brutal and 2) Photopia makes you more or less live through
it (although we're thankfully spared the actual accident, which
somewhat obviates 1).
Also, was Bridge read to you, or did you read it yourself? Because
my point was that for younger children, at least, Photopia might best
be read with someone more mature present. Then again, maybe that's a
specious warning.
Also, I'm sure people objected to Bridge to Terabithia -- I'm not
defending the view, I'm just noting it. Ask the circulation
librarians, and they'll probably give you the same advice I am:
create a Children's section with the mostly innocent works *and*
a more general section (putting the Children's works in both sections
would be a nice touch).
Richard Bos
> > You forget that the fruitcakes we're talking about here, or some of
> > them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
> > bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
> > these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.
>
> Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
> "hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
> for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
> reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
> dating doesn't work.
I've only one thing to say to such people:
"You can take the Bible literally, or seriously. Not both".
I prefer the serious option, they, apparently, the literal one. Their
loss, I guess.
Richard
Jon Ingold
> > > them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
> > > bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
> > > these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.
> >
> > Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
> > "hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible
word
> > for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and
the
> > reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that
carbon
> > dating doesn't work.
>
> I've only one thing to say to such people:
> "You can take the Bible literally, or seriously. Not both".
LOL.
(That's a debatable point, but now is not the time, or the newgroup, or even
the thread.)
> I prefer the serious option, they, apparently, the literal one. Their
> loss, I guess.
I've never read the Bible; but it was always struck me as probably more
interesting if you don't just take it all at face value, but if you
interpret; like any work of art. One has to wonder with literalists: When
Jesus said "consider the lilies," do they consider lilies?
Jon
Richard Bos
> > I prefer the serious option, they, apparently, the literal one. Their
> > loss, I guess.
>
> I've never read the Bible; but it was always struck me as probably more
> interesting if you don't just take it all at face value, but if you
> interpret; like any work of art. One has to wonder with literalists: When
> Jesus said "consider the lilies," do they consider lilies?
Why not? It's a perfectly good idea. Better than considering
fundamentalists, any way ;-).
Richard
David Thornley
Kayrun <kay...@aol.com> wrote:
>Would "Sunset Over Savannah" be a good choice here? (I can't remember the
>whole story!)
>
It involves trespassing, theft, and vandalism in a real-life setting,
although I seem to be the one most bothered by that. It also presents
a real dragon as a good thing, late in the game, and that will rile up
the anti-magic crowd. Iffy at best.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:
>
> > Another suggestion: "Firebird", by Bonnie Montgomery. It's based on
> > Russian fairy tales, and I remember it as being accessible to children.
> > There is a certain amount of violence in it - what's a fairy tale
> > without an ogre-slaying or two, after all? - but I think you'd probably
> > find it acceptable. Give it a try.
>
> I'll have a look at it.
Hmmm...
>inventory
You have a bow and a quiver. The quiver seems to contain an arrow.
>x quiver
[An error has occurred within TADS: object value required]
Maybe my WinTads is broken... [checks] Yes, I had one or
two other TADS games sitting about and they don't work just
at the moment, either. Huh. Wonder how that happened. It
used to work, I'm pretty sure.
- jonadab
Volker Blasius
> ... in Harry Potter, kids are only reading ABOUT occult forces,
> whereas in Enchanter, they in the first person are encouraged and in fact
> compelled (if they want to get anywhere in the game) to personally choose
> to take those actions.
Ah, this horrid game genre again, the FPSC (First Person Spell-Caster) -
banned in God's Own Country but nowhere else on this godless world.
Begone!
Volker :)
Stuart Adair
>When Jesus said "consider the lilies," do they consider lilies?
Ahhhhhhhhh...
--
/(_________)\ >---------- - - - - // - - - - --------<
___/_ ___:____ \\ stuart adair v21 beta 5 // when mailing me, 1 == i \
) ) / __ )> http://stu042.cjb.net // mailto:stu...@b1gfoot.com >
\_______/________/<__________ _ _ _ // _ _ _ _ _________/
John Baker
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
>
> > It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> > even flinch.
>
> Oh, don't they?
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/00/01/st012722.html
> http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter/
> http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_04.htm
> http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/genl/A0008833.html
Sigh. I'm continually reminded of how little hope there is for us as a
species.
--
John Baker
"Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe." - Thulsadoom
Duncan Stevens
news:39957...@news.cadvision.com...
> ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/tads/waterbrd.gam
> ...KayCee
>
> "Jonadab the Unsightly One" <jon...@bright.net> wrote in message
> news:39952bd7...@news.bright.net...
> >
> > "the water bird" is too general for search engines. Where
> > can I find this one?
> >
Please note, however, that the updated version of Water Bird is still pretty
buggy, and I suspect it's still unfinishable (at least, I got stuck, and
what was stopping me seemed suspiciously like a bug).
Konnrad / T Taylor
> fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
> own children on altars, genocide, ...
And if you delve into the true history of it it gets worse.
I started to study Christianity so I could relate more to my Christian friends... and
now I'm revulsed by it. Great, huh?
TOM
Konnrad / T Taylor
> "hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
> for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
> reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
> dating doesn't work.
If you want to understand Christianity, please read "The Jesus Mysteries", by Freke and
Gandy. Not for Christians if they don't like being challenged, but it tells us
non-Christians a LOT. And it's all authentic history stuff with extensive footnotes and
everything.
TOM
Konnrad / T Taylor
> Satan says more about themself then anything else. (After all, it
> *could* stand for Savior, or Salvation. Or Sandra. That would be
> interesting...)
It's S for Sandwich. Harry Potter is such a mindless oaf he doesn't know when he needs
sustenance, so it lights up when he is hungry... and since he lacks the motor control for
kitchen utensils he is forced to eat food with his hands, hence the occurence of
sandwiches.
The sandwiches / witches connection is a pure fabrication by member of the press.
TOM
Konnrad / T Taylor
> Arrival.
My 9 year-old bro liked it.
TOM
Duncan Stevens
message news:8oboaj$8qh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
> > fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
> > own children on altars, genocide, ...
>
> And if you delve into the true history of it it gets worse.
Okay, I'll bite. What are you talking about?
--Duncan
Duncan Stevens
> If you want to understand Christianity, please read "The Jesus
Mysteries", by Freke and
> Gandy. Not for Christians if they don't like being challenged, but it
tells us
> non-Christians a LOT. And it's all authentic history stuff with extensive
footnotes and
> everything.
Sorry, but footnotes don't make a book reputable scholarship. Anyone who
claims to have unassailable proof of anything as unprovable as the
historicity of Jesus--arguably the most extensively researched question of
our time--doesn't deserve your time; they're a lot more likely to be
promoting an agenda than doing actual scholarship.
To wit: Freke and Gandy claim that Christianity appropriated Mithraism.
Quite a trick, since Mithraism came into existence well after Paul's
writings. They essentially assume that pagan rites described in documents
that are dated way after Paul were just the same before Christianity came
around. Even assuming that the rites in question were around in the form
they describe at the time, they assume that Paul, I dunno, looked them up in
his handy encyclopedia in order to draw on them; who on earth knows whether
the various preexisting pagan mysteries were even remembered at the time
Christianity was founded? And their claims that the various pagan rites were
similar to Christianity are wildly exaggerated; the only point in common in
the Osiris myth, for example, is the idea of coming back from the dead. You
could argue equally plausibly that Paul stole the idea of resurrection from
the story of Elisha bringing a child back to life in 2 Kings 4.
If you're genuinely interested in this, read more; specifically, read some
people who have criticized Freke and Gandy. (You'll have a lot to choose
from.) I'm not saying you'll be convinced that their critics are right, but
you _will_, I suspect, realize that nary a damn thing in this particular
field can be demonstrated with any certainty, and that all the research
about the historical Jesus consists of roughly one part evidence and 99
parts harebrained speculation. (You'll also, I think, realize that
_everyone_, Christian or not, has an agenda. Freke and Gandy sure as hell
do.)
"Beware the man who has read only one book."
>
> TOM
>
>
Konnrad / T Taylor
> that are dated way after Paul were just the same before Christianity came
> around.
Nice ploy. So why then do Catholic officials bother to mention that Paganism had - and
had had for some time, a Jesus-like figure, and make the preposterous claim of "diabolical
mimicry", that Satan went back to before Christ and mimicked him?
And Gnosticism is proven to be before literal/Catholic Christianity. They had Jesus
first. Why are Christian's not Gnostics, taking the bible as metaphor, myth - a vehicle
to produce a better, spiritual loving mindset?
TOM
Duncan Stevens
> They essentially assume that pagan rites described in documents
> > that are dated way after Paul were just the same before Christianity
came
> > around.
>
> Nice ploy. So why then do Catholic officials bother to mention that
Paganism had - and
> had had for some time, a Jesus-like figure, and make the preposterous
claim of "diabolical
> mimicry", that Satan went back to before Christ and mimicked him?
Non sequitur. That some Catholic official thinks that a specific pagan rite
was around before Christ doesn't mean it's true, and it certainly doesn't
mean that Christianity was derived from that pagan rite. (And, incidentally,
why the existence of stories about dying gods that predated the founding of
Christianity disproves the truth of Christianity is beyond me. As C.S. Lewis
wrote, why should it be impossible that a non-Christian get a piece or
glimpse of the truth? Only if you're really wedded to the idea that God only
reveals himself, even in the slightest way, to those who self-identify as
Christians--which I'm not--is it necessary to believe that.)
> And Gnosticism is proven to be before literal/Catholic Christianity.
They had Jesus
> first. Why are Christian's not Gnostics, taking the bible as metaphor,
myth - a vehicle
> to produce a better, spiritual loving mindset?
'Scuse me? "Proven" how? There are, I dunno, minutes of Gnostic meetings
dated before A.D. 48 or 49 or so, which is when I Thessalonians was written?
(Not that that would mean that what you call "literal/Catholic Christianity"
wasn't around before A.D. 48, of course, unless you think Paul just kinda
sprang up out of nowhere and started writing to people.) As for why Gnostics
aren't Christians, they're free to claim they are, and you're free to
consider them as such if you want. Of course, Muslims are free to claim that
they're Christians too; it's just that the term starts to lose its meaning
once you start broadening it. (Or do you mean, why doesn't Christianity now
look like Gnosticism? The answer is that Christianity as it is now
recognized won the arguments about who Christ was and what he did. Were they
right as a factual matter? Can't say definitively, but in that the most
contemporary accounts fit Christianity better than Gnosticism, it's a major
stretch to assert that the Christians were wrong. And no, sorry, the Nag
Hammadi stuff does not count, because there ain't no one who has anything
resembling hard evidence about who wrote it and what they were writing
about.)
--Duncan
Adam J. Thornton
Duncan Stevens <dn...@starpower.net> wrote:
>Non sequitur. That some Catholic official thinks that a specific pagan rite
>was around before Christ doesn't mean it's true
Unless that Catholic official is the Pope speaking Ex Cathedra. *NOT*
that I'm claiming that the pope believes this and *NOT* that I'm
claiming he's spoken Ex Cathedra about it, because I'm *NOT*. However,
there is one Catholic official, for whom there exist special
circumscribed circumstances, such that when he thinks something, It Is
True (presuming that you believe the Pope has the theological authority
he claims.)
However, if the Pope sits down in his Pope-chair and makes a
Pronouncement From It, then because he thinks it, it *IS* true, because
in those situations He Is By Definition Infalliable on Theologically
Pertinent Matters.
Nice work if you can get it.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits
Richard Bos
> In article <8ok243$q5h$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> Duncan Stevens <dn...@starpower.net> wrote:
> >Non sequitur. That some Catholic official thinks that a specific pagan rite
> >was around before Christ doesn't mean it's true
>
> Unless that Catholic official is the Pope speaking Ex Cathedra.
And even then only for Roman Catholics, not for anyone else, be they
non-christians or non-RC christians. And these days, I gather, not even
for some dissenting RC's either, but the RC church probably disagrees
with that.
Richard
Konnrad / T Taylor
> mean that Christianity was derived from that pagan rite. (And, incidentally,
> why the existence of stories about dying gods that predated the founding of
> Christianity disproves the truth of Christianity is beyond me. As C.S. Lewis
> wrote, why should it be impossible that a non-Christian get a piece or
> glimpse of the truth? Only if you're really wedded to the idea that God only
> reveals himself, even in the slightest way, to those who self-identify as
> Christians--which I'm not--is it necessary to believe that.)
All church-fathers of the early age of Christianity wrote about these similarities, and
put them up to "diabolical mimicry".
I think you've been reading Was the New Testament Influenced By Pagan Religions? by
Ronald Nash.
www.jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk has a message board. On the "Christianity not Pagan
rebuttal" post there is an interesting discussion, showing that there is no proof against
pre-Jesus Pagan mysteries containing Jesus-like figures.
> (Or do you mean, why doesn't Christianity now
> look like Gnosticism? The answer is that Christianity as it is now
> recognized won the arguments about who Christ was and what he did. Were they
> right as a factual matter? Can't say definitively, but in that the most
> contemporary accounts fit Christianity better than Gnosticism, it's a major
> stretch to assert that the Christians were wrong.
Literalists persecuted the Gnostics and Pagans, killed them, and thusly ended them.
Not by being right.
There is a book extensively showing that Pagans had Jesus-like figures. Jews took a
similar figure to make a Jewish Paganism. Some Literalists evolved, killed everyone,
caused the Dark Ages, and we are still left with such lies.
There are books beforehan doing such things.
All you can say is "There is no evidence".
How would you know? Because someone else refuted it? I know Christians who refute
evolution. They have no evidence at all of creation.
A Mormon I know merely counters this book with, "It can't be true, my priest says so."
I was once a Christian. If I had read "The Jesus Mysteries" then I would go along with
any stupid argument that disproved it - even "diabolical mimcry".
But now I can see there is no evidence against this book. Please continue your argument
on the aforementioned website - the authors of the book will show you in what respects you
are false.
TOM