Best original Infocom games?
Matthew Biddulph
Apologies if this is a FAQ... I trawled the FAQ on ftp.gmd.de but
didn't find the info...
Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
or file somewhere with a ranking?
Thanks,
Matt.
JID
In article <331cde45...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
matthew....@balliol.oxford.ac.uk wrote:
>Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
>best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
>or file somewhere with a ranking?
I don't know if there's such a place, but there's been sporadic discussion
on this around here. For the record, if I had to select one and one only,
I'd probably choose Trinity.
(With many, many runners-up.)
Joey
****************************************************
American Gothic fanatic or just a tourist in Trinity?
Read The Trinity Guardian: http://www.best.com/~owls/AG/
****************************************************
Guildenstern: He's -- melancholy.
Player: Melancholy?
Rosencrantz: Mad.
Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
Cheshire Cat: Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here.
(From "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern in Wonderland")
****************************************************
Johanna "Joey" Drasner: ow...@best.com (San Francisco)
****************************************************
Jason Compton
Matthew Biddulph (matthew....@balliol.oxford.ac.uk) wrote:
: Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
: best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
: or file somewhere with a ranking?
Various votes, ratings, rankings, etc. have been made over the years, but
of course everybody's taste varies.
My personal favorites are A Mind Forever Voyaging and Planetfall, with
honorable mention to Witness. Trinity often comes very highly recommended
by other inhabitants of the newsgroup although I've never taken the time
out to play it, and both the games I cited tend to be fan favorites as
well. I'm sure you'll hear other people's views on this as well...
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine (847) 741-0689 FAX
AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha WWW - http://www.cucug.org/ar/
The path is clear... ...though no eyes can see.
There is always a choice. Alternative Computing Now!
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Matthew Biddulph wrote:
> Apologies if this is a FAQ... I trawled the FAQ on ftp.gmd.de but
> didn't find the info...
>
> Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
> best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
> or file somewhere with a ranking?
I don't know if there has ever been an actual consensus, but I do
know that my personal favorite--A Mind Forever Voyaging--seems to get
more votes than normal whenever these kinds of questions are asked on
this newsgroup, so my vote would go for that, but I'm really not sure.
(If you haven't played it, do it! It's incredible! In addition to
being, far and away, my favorite Infocom game, it's also, far and away,
my favorite game of all time, and I've played a lot!)
===============================================================================
Matthew Murray - n964...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!
-David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================
Erik Hetzner
> Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
> best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
> or file somewhere with a ranking?
I believe that SPAG publishes a list of all games that people have rated,
so it would include all the Infocom games. Could somebody point the way to
SPAG for me? (I don't know where it is right now.)
I would trust, though, that those near the top are of equal quality, that
differences are probably personal. So you ought to play them all. :) I am
greatly enjoying Trinity right now, myself.
--
Erik Hetzner <e...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Jonathan D Blask
On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Erik Hetzner wrote:
>
> I would trust, though, that those near the top are of equal quality, that
> differences are probably personal. So you ought to play them all. :) I am
> greatly enjoying Trinity right now, myself.
>
Personally, my favorite would probably be Ballyhoo! or Lurking
Horror. From what I've read, I've gathered that most people don't
share my tastes. I just really liked the stories of those games.
Planetfall would probably be a close third.
-jon
"Blah, blah, blah" -you know,
that one guy
Scott Forbes
I'll put in a vote for Sorcerer. It has Bozbarland, Duncanthrax's Glass
Maze, the time paradox (possibly the best single puzzle in all of
Infocom's IF), the Chamber of Living Death, Dornbeasts -- what more could
you want?
--
Scott Forbes for...@ravenna.com
Nulldogma
> Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
> best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
> or file somewhere with a ranking?
XYZZYNews (http://www.xyzzynews.com) did a poll a year or more ago. IIRC,
Zork edged out Trinity for the top spot.
Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause ne...@echonyc.com
http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Arnold
In article <331cde45...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Matthew Biddulph
<URL:mailto:matthew....@balliol.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Apologies if this is a FAQ... I trawled the FAQ on ftp.gmd.de but
> didn't find the info...
>
> best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
> or file somewhere with a ranking?
I don't know of any official (or unofficial) ranking anywhere.
Obviously this would be much debated and always wrong anyway. Let's
look at the reader's scoreboard from SPAG 9:
Name Avg Sc Chr Puz # Sc Rlvt Ish Notes:
==== ====== === === ==== ======== ======
Arthur: Excalibur 8.6 1.8 1.7 1 4 C_INF
Ballyhoo 7.0 1.8 1.5 3 4 C_INF
Beyond Zork 8.1 1.5 2.0 3 5 C_INF
Border Zone 6.7 1.4 1.4 4 4 C_INF
Bureaucracy 8.3 1.8 1.6 3 5 C_INF
Cutthroats 6.4 1.4 1.2 5 1 C_INF
Deadline 7.0 1.3 1.4 4 x C_INF
Enchanter 7.1 0.9 1.4 5 2 C_INF
Hitchhiker's Guide 8.0 1.6 1.6 5 5 C_INF
Hollywood Hijinx 5.7 1.0 1.5 4 x C_INF
Infidel 7.0 1.4 7 1-2 C_INF
Journey 6.9 1.3 0.8 1 5 C_INF
Leather Goddesses 7.8 1.4 1.7 5 4 C_INF
Lurking Horror, The 7.1 1.4 1.3 5 1,3 C_INF
Mind Forever Voyaging 8.5 1.4 0.6 4 5 C_INF
Moonmist 5.9 1.4 1.3 5 1 C_INF
Nord and Bert 4.8 0.5 1.0 2 4 C_INF
Planetfall 7.5 1.7 1.6 6 4 C_INF
Plundered Hearts 7.8 1.4 1.3 2 4 C_INF
Seastalker 5.5 1.1 1.0 4 4 C_INF
Sherlock 8.2 1.5 1.6 2 4 C_INF
Shogun 7.1 1.5 0.5 1 4 C_INF
Sorceror 7.3 0.6 1.6 5 2 C_INF
Spellbreaker 8.2 1.2 1.8 4 2 C_INF
Starcross 7.0 1.1 1.3 5 1 C_INF
Stationfall 7.6 1.6 1.6 5 5 C_INF
Suspect 6.2 1.3 1.2 2 4 C_INF
Suspended 7.5 1.3 1.2 4 8 C_INF
Trinity 8.8 1.4 1.7 8 1-2 C_INF
Wishbringer 7.6 1.3 1.3 4 5-6 C_INF
Witness, The 7.2 1.7 1.2 5 1,3,9 C_INF
Zork 0 7.1 1.3 2.0 2 x C_INF
Zork 1 6.0 0.7 1.5 9 1-2 C_INF
Zork 2 6.4 0.8 1.5 7 1-2 C_INF
Zork 3 6.1 0.6 1.4 5 1-2 C_INF
Phew! Must be bored tonight.
The most-frequently-cited-as-being-best-by-readers-of-r*i-f are Trinity,
AMFV, and Spellbreaker.
For my money the best few (in no particular order) are the _____fall
games (Planetfall edging into the lead slightly), Beyond Zork, the
Enchanter trilogy, Plundered Hearts, and Wishbringer (and I've never
finished Trinity, but what I have played is very good). The worst few
are Cutthroats, Ballyhoo, Infidel (though it has good bits), and
probably Moonmist. Shogun is generally better than it is said to be
(though when it's bad, it's very bad). HHGTTG isn't as fab as it's
sales suggest. Sorceror may be the weakest of the Enchanter games, but
only 'cos the other two are so good.
And no, I don't plan to qualify any of that.
Jools
--
"For small erections may be finished by their first architects; grand
ones, true ones, ever leave the copestone to posterity. God keep me
from ever completing anything." -- Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"
Erik Hetzner
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97030...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>,
Jonathan D Blask <jdb...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> Personally, my favorite would probably be Ballyhoo! or Lurking
> Horror. From what I've read, I've gathered that most people don't
> share my tastes. I just really liked the stories of those games.
> Planetfall would probably be a close third.
> -jon
> "Blah, blah, blah" -you know,
> that one guy
Well, I played _The Lurking Horror_ and I liked it a lot, if that makes
you feel better. Though I didn't find it all that creepy -- it seemed to
have far too much humor. There was never a sense of real sinisterness in
it.
I haven't played the other two. On another note, I'm often wary of fantasy
games because I find most fantasy I see/read so terribly bad that it's
just -- intolerable, to say the least. :) So I'll probably play Infocom's
fantasy games right before _Plundered Hearts_. :)
--
Erik Hetzner <e...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Matthew Murray
On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Julian Arnold wrote:
> In article <331cde45...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Matthew Biddulph
> The most-frequently-cited-as-being-best-by-readers-of-r*i-f are Trinity,
> AMFV, and Spellbreaker.
With extremely good reason, I might add. But besides being some
of Infocom's best games, those are some of the finest computer games
released ever. Period. (Especially AMFV--I have yet to see anything
that even comes close.)
> finished Trinity, but what I have played is very good). The worst few
> are Cutthroats, Ballyhoo, Infidel (though it has good bits), and
Well, Cutthroats and Ballyhoo are certainly not on my list of
favorites, but I thought Infidel was darn good. Complicated, yes, and a
little bit ambiguous, but very creative, and very original. And hey, I
>liked< the ending.
> probably Moonmist. Shogun is generally better than it is said to be
> (though when it's bad, it's very bad). HHGTTG isn't as fab as it's
Um, did we play the same Shogun here? Hitchhiker's Guide has its
moments, but I agree--it's not exactly one of my favorites.
> sales suggest. Sorceror may be the weakest of the Enchanter games, but
> only 'cos the other two are so good.
<cough, cough> And, pray tell, exactly WHAT was wrong with Sorcerer?
Matthew Murray
On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Scott Forbes wrote:
> I'll put in a vote for Sorcerer. It has Bozbarland, Duncanthrax's Glass
> Maze, the time paradox (possibly the best single puzzle in all of
> Infocom's IF), the Chamber of Living Death, Dornbeasts -- what more could
> you want?
Several magnificently written endings?
Oh wait...
Gunther Schmidl
I think the best of Infocom's adventures was Zork: Zero. It's the longest
and definitely one of the most hilarious of them all (except HHGTTG and
LGOP).
--
Gunther...@jk.uni-linz.ac.at
"This is not a signature."
JID
In article <01bc28bd$d8a5b640$ce05...@slip.edvz.uni-linz.ac.at>, "Gunther
Schmidl" <Gunther...@jk.uni-linz.ac.at> wrote:
>I think the best of Infocom's adventures was Zork: Zero. It's the longest
>and definitely one of the most hilarious of them all (except HHGTTG and
>LGOP).
There's something to be said for that. I think it was really very
brilliant how they basically took the same plot structure as their very
first delightful Zork -- treasure hunt! -- and buried it in a massive,
colorful, complicated plot chock-full of so many things that it simply
begs to be played at LEAST once more.
*endgame spoiler*
I have to say I actually got chills when the castle collapsed in on itself
to produce the white house. It was just...just so elegantly perfect. Such
a great example of the Infocom sensibility I love so much, if that makes
any kind of sense whatsoever.
Julian Arnold
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970304001...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <URL:mailto:n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Julian Arnold wrote:
> > sales suggest. Sorceror may be the weakest of the Enchanter games, but
> > only 'cos the other two are so good.
>
> <cough, cough> And, pray tell, exactly WHAT was wrong with Sorcerer?
Hm, maybe I overstated. There's nothing wrong with Sorcerer. It's one
of the better Infocom games. It's just that Enchanter is notable for
being the first of the trilogy, Spellbreaker is notable for it's puzzles
(which were mostly far too difficult for me, though I did do the thing
with the two moving rock creatures without help), and Sorcerer is stuck
in the middle. Actually, in terms of having fun-while-first-playing,
Sorcerer probably wins for me (with Enchanter a close second). On the
whole, I would heartily recommend all three games, chiefly as a trilogy,
but also as individual games.
Adam J. Thornton
Me, my favorites are _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, and _Enchanter_. My least
favorites are _Ballyhoo_, _Plundered Hearts_, and _Witness_.
No qualifications from me, either.
Adam
--
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | ad...@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928
GraemeCree
>Various votes, ratings, rankings, etc. have been made over the years, but
>of course everybody's taste varies.
True, but I would be interested in hearing something more objective,
such as sales figures. Everybody knows that Zork I and Hitchhiker's Guide
are the two top-selling Infocom games, but beyond that nothing has been
made very clear.
The SPA used to certify games Silver, Gold and Platinum, and there is
an article in one of the New Zork Times where several games were certified
Gold (which at the time was 100,000 units sold, though it may be more
today). In addition to the 5 games that were released as Solid Gold
titles, Suspended was also inducted into the 100,000 club that night, and
I believe that Wishbringer was certified silver.
Does anybody know how many Infocom games were certified in each
category? Were Zork I and Hitchhiker's the only Platinum games? And what
was the worst selling Infocom game? Offhand I'd guess it was either
Seastalker or Cutthroats, but I really have no idea.
GraemeCree
>I don't know if there has ever been an actual consensus, but I do
>know that my personal favorite--A Mind Forever Voyaging--seems to get
>more votes than normal whenever these kinds of questions are asked on
>this newsgroup, so my vote would go for that, but I'm really not sure.
For the record, Computer Gaming World named 5 Infocom games in their
best 150 games of all time list a couple of months back: Zork I,
Hitchhiker's Guide, Trinity, Suspended, and Deadline.
Their favourite in this group was Zork I, which they put in 13th
place; good enough to be the best adventure game of all time, as none of
the 12 higher games were adventure games.
Odd, because very few who still play text games would name Zork I as
their all-time favourite Infocom game, but to the "outside world" that's
the one with all the name recognition.
GraemeCree
>For my money the best few (in no particular order) are the _____fall
>games (Planetfall edging into the lead slightly), Beyond Zork, the
>Enchanter trilogy, Plundered Hearts, and Wishbringer (and I've never
>are Cutthroats, Ballyhoo, Infidel (though it has good bits), and
>(though when it's bad, it's very bad). HHGTTG isn't as fab as it's
>only 'cos the other two are so good.
Yes, Planetfall is my favourite also. Plundered Hearts is one of
Infocom's most underrated games, along with Nord and Bert Couldn't Make
Head or Tail of It. Beyond Zork suffers too I think, from being part of
the Zork franchise. It's really a fantastic game, but it frequently is
not judged on its own merits, but rather as being "one of the Zork games".
I didn't really dislike Cutthroats or Ballyhoo. Seastalker on the
other hand could be Infocom's worst, but remember that "worst" is a
relative term, and that what's bad for Infocom is still going to be good
for your average company.
Can't decide about Sorcerer. Sometimes I think it's the best of the
Enchanter trilogy, and sometimes I think it's the worst. That time travel
puzzle really is great, but the other two games are so good also that it's
hard to decide.
GraemeCree
>I think the best of Infocom's adventures was Zork: Zero. It's the longest
>and definitely one of the most hilarious of them all (except HHGTTG and
>LGOP).
I don't know. A couple of years ago I would have placed Zork 0 above
Beyond Zork, but now I'm not so sure. While Zork 0 is unquestionably
funnier than Beyond Zork, Beyond Zork is more imaginative and evocative.
On the other hand, I've always considered Zork 3 to be one of
Infocom's weakest games. Apart from the Royal Puzzle, there's just not
much there. The time-travelling jewel robbery is great, but that's not
enough to carry the whole game. And the whole idea that this place has
been sitting here for centuries, and you arrive just before an earthquake
that will destroy your winning chances unless you visit a certain area
before it strikes has always struck me as ridiculously coincidental.
Andrew Plotkin
JID (ow...@best.com) wrote:
> In article <01bc28bd$d8a5b640$ce05...@slip.edvz.uni-linz.ac.at>, "Gunther
> Schmidl" <Gunther...@jk.uni-linz.ac.at> wrote:
> >I think the best of Infocom's adventures was Zork: Zero. It's the longest
> >and definitely one of the most hilarious of them all (except HHGTTG and
> >LGOP).
> There's something to be said for that. I think it was really very
> brilliant how they basically took the same plot structure as their very
> first delightful Zork -- treasure hunt! -- and buried it in a massive,
> colorful, complicated plot chock-full of so many things that it simply
> begs to be played at LEAST once more.
Not by me. Complicated plot? It was a treasure hunt. Nothing fit
together. Spellbreaker was a treasure hunt with some thematic consistency
-- the elements symmetry. (Plus, the places you got to were pretty darn
cool.)
Zork Zero had, er, a bunch of stuff. I just didn't care all that much.
> *endgame spoiler*
>
> I have to say I actually got chills when the castle collapsed in on itself
> to produce the white house.
I thought it was cheesy as hell. An perfect example of tying things
together *without* a good reason. It didn't resolve anything from Zork I;
it was just, hey, let's put in a Zork I reference.
Very much the same feeling I had about the Infocom references in Zork
Nemesis, in fact. (Which only demonstrates that an author can make a mess
of his own work just as much as an outsider can. When I rant that
Activision shouldn't be doing Zork sequels, I *don't* mean that if the
original Infocom had written more Zork sequels, they would *necessarily*
have been good...)
(What a terrible sentence.)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Jason Compton
GraemeCree (graem...@aol.com) wrote:
: Does anybody know how many Infocom games were certified in each
: category? Were Zork I and Hitchhiker's the only Platinum games? And what
: was the worst selling Infocom game? Offhand I'd guess it was either
: Seastalker or Cutthroats, but I really have no idea.
I'd actually guess on one of the later games (Border Zone, Sherlock jumps
to mind) simply because from what I've gathered sales declined over
time...
Chris Lang
Well, Cutthroats and Ballyhoo are certainly not on my list of
>favorites, but I thought Infidel was darn good. Complicated, yes, and a
>little bit ambiguous, but very creative, and very original. And hey, I
>>liked< the ending.
>
Well, most people don't like Infidel's ending because you are not
allowed to let your character 'see the error of his ways'. I won't give
away too much more here, but basically, some of the 'interactive' element
of interactive fiction is missing here. Cutthroats is interesting, as
instead of being paired with characters you KNOW are your friends (like
trusty Sergeant Duffy of Deadline/Witness fame or the friendly robot
Floyd of Planetfall), you're teamed with a bunch of people who aren't
hesitant to bump you off if they suspect you've cheated them or betrayed
them. Though it's not one of my favorites, it is interesting in that
regard.
Ballyhoo is okay, though it focuses more on puzzles than the mystery
aspect, and some of the characters could have been better developed.
> The most-frequently-cited-as-being-best-by-readers-of-r*i-f are
Trinity,
>> AMFV, and Spellbreaker.
>
> With extremely good reason, I might add. But besides being some
>of Infocom's best games, those are some of the finest computer games
>released ever. Period. (Especially AMFV--I have yet to see anything
>that even comes close.)
Ah, AMFV. A Mind Forever Voyaging. Definately a unique work of
computer gaming. It's a find blend of the science fiction concepts of
artificial intelligence and dystopian futures. A mere description of it
here can't hope to do it justice; it has to be experienced in order to be
appreciated. It is Steve Meretzky's most serious and philosophical work,
and is still as socially signifigant today as when it was first published.
And I tend to agree with the one often quoted review: "AMFV isn't 1984,
but in some ways, it's even scarier".
The Enchanter trilogy games are also among Infocom's best. With
stronger storylines than the original Zork trilogy, and some of the most
ingenious puzzles seen in interactive fiction, they are definately role
models for any future fantasy games. And all three have some of the best
climaxes in computer games (especially Sorcerer).
Other favorites of mine are Lurking Horror, a sort of Lovecraftian
tale about the everyday world of a technical school slowly going mad due
to the presence of beings from some other world (however, as far as scary
goes, it's not nearly as scary as AMFV's scenarios, which are more likely
to actually happen. But it was ahead of its time with the potential
'threat to the Net' plot twist). And Suspended is a VERY different kind
of IF game, in which the player has to maneuver six robots with different
abilities around a complex in order to save a planet from certain doom.
You're encouraged to improve on your score, giving the game much replay
potential...
Chris Lang
Matthew Daly
In article <19970305043...@ladder01.news.aol.com> graem...@aol.com (GraemeCree) writes:
> True, but I would be interested in hearing something more objective,
>such as sales figures. Everybody knows that Zork I and Hitchhiker's Guide
>are the two top-selling Infocom games, but beyond that nothing has been
>made very clear.
Yeah, but what does that really mean? HGTTG was a best-selling game,
but it's not on many people's "must play" list.
> Does anybody know how many Infocom games were certified in each
>category? Were Zork I and Hitchhiker's the only Platinum games? And what
>was the worst selling Infocom game? Offhand I'd guess it was either
>Seastalker or Cutthroats, but I really have no idea.
I would guess Moonmist myself, or maybe Ballyhoo. If Cutthroats is on
or near the bottom of the list, it isn't for lack of playability or
enjoyability. (It's an easy game, but that shouldn't be held against
it.)
-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly I feel that if a person has problems communicating
mwd...@kodak.com the very least he can do is to shut up - Tom Lehrer
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Chris Lang
> I don't know. A couple of years ago I would have placed Zork 0
above
>Beyond Zork, but now I'm not so sure. While Zork 0 is unquestionably
>funnier than Beyond Zork, Beyond Zork is more imaginative and evocative.
True, Zork Zero does recycle a few elements from previous Zork games,
but of course it IS the prequel, which goes into the previously just
glanced at fall of the Flatheads and the Great Underground Empire.
Beyond Zork succeeds as a Zork game and as an adventure game, but the
role-playing game element is a bit weak. The fighting is more or less a
variation on the fights with the troll and the thief from Zork 1. However,
all in all, it has a good plot, covers plenty of new ground, and has a
very satisfying ending.
On the other hand, I've always considered Zork 3 to be one of
>Infocom's weakest games. Apart from the Royal Puzzle, there's just not
>much there. The time-travelling jewel robbery is great, but that's not
>enough to carry the whole game. And the whole idea that this place has
>been sitting here for centuries, and you arrive just before an
earthquake
>that will destroy your winning chances unless you visit a certain area
>before it strikes has always struck me as ridiculously coincidental.
>
Well, Zork 3 isn't the best of Infocom's Zork games, though it has its
moments and a subtle storyline. Of course, the time-travelling jewel
robbery could result in a sort of contradiction if you botch it (one of
the ways you botch it results in the time machine being removed years
before you can use it, but if you can't use it, how could you have
botched the robbery and caused it to be removed? Sort of like the 'kill
your grandfather before your father is born' controversy). And as for the
earthquake, the dungeon master may have caused it, for all we know, just
to make the test harder. Though basically, you are right in some respects.
Zork 3 tends to be shorter and weaker than the previous two Zork games,
but that's partly due to the fact that when the Zork trilogy was made,
space limitations required the Implementors to split Zork into thirds.
Nowadays, they could fit the whole Zork trilogy and lots more on a single
disk.
Chris Lang
Drone
Julian Arnold wrote:
>
> I don't know of any official (or unofficial) ranking anywhere.
> Obviously this would be much debated and always wrong anyway. Let's
> look at the reader's scoreboard from SPAG 9:
>
Seeing the ranking list posted here, it suddenly hit my why it has always
seemed frustrating to read it. It's the order of it. If the point of the
exercise is to rank games, then why aren't they ever, you know -- ranked?
Anyway I was annoyed enough when this occurred to me that I shuffled them
myself:
> Name Avg Sc Chr Puz # Sc Rlvt Ish Notes:
> ==== ====== === === ==== ======== ======
> Trinity 8.8 1.4 1.7 8 1-2 C_INF
> Arthur: Excalibur 8.6 1.8 1.7 1 4 C_INF
> Mind Forever Voyaging 8.5 1.4 0.6 4 5 C_INF
> Bureaucracy 8.3 1.8 1.6 3 5 C_INF
> Sherlock 8.2 1.5 1.6 2 4 C_INF
> Spellbreaker 8.2 1.2 1.8 4 2 C_INF
> Beyond Zork 8.1 1.5 2.0 3 5 C_INF
> Hitchhiker's Guide 8.0 1.6 1.6 5 5 C_INF
> Leather Goddesses 7.8 1.4 1.7 5 4 C_INF
> Plundered Hearts 7.8 1.4 1.3 2 4 C_INF
> Stationfall 7.6 1.6 1.6 5 5 C_INF
> Wishbringer 7.6 1.3 1.3 4 5-6 C_INF
> Planetfall 7.5 1.7 1.6 6 4 C_INF
> Suspended 7.5 1.3 1.2 4 8 C_INF
> Sorceror 7.3 0.6 1.6 5 2 C_INF
> Witness, The 7.2 1.7 1.2 5 1,3,9 C_INF
> Zork 0 7.1 1.3 2.0 2 x C_INF
> Lurking Horror, The 7.1 1.4 1.3 5 1,3 C_INF
> Enchanter 7.1 0.9 1.4 5 2 C_INF
> Shogun 7.1 1.5 0.5 1 4 C_INF
> Ballyhoo 7.0 1.8 1.5 3 4 C_INF
> Deadline 7.0 1.3 1.4 4 x C_INF
> Starcross 7.0 1.1 1.3 5 1 C_INF
> Infidel 7.0 1.4 7 1-2 C_INF
> Journey 6.9 1.3 0.8 1 5 C_INF
> Border Zone 6.7 1.4 1.4 4 4 C_INF
> Cutthroats 6.4 1.4 1.2 5 1 C_INF
> Zork 2 6.4 0.8 1.5 7 1-2 C_INF
> Suspect 6.2 1.3 1.2 2 4 C_INF
> Zork 3 6.1 0.6 1.4 5 1-2 C_INF
> Zork 1 6.0 0.7 1.5 9 1-2 C_INF
> Moonmist 5.9 1.4 1.3 5 1 C_INF
> Hollywood Hijinx 5.7 1.0 1.5 4 x C_INF
> Seastalker 5.5 1.1 1.0 4 4 C_INF
> Nord and Bert 4.8 0.5 1.0 2 4 C_INF
>
> Phew! Must be bored tonight.
>
Me too.
Drone.
--
"Ah, the drone," says Whistler. "A drone is just an agent for unseen interests.
An empty vessel. I don't know how it came to be. 'It's barely alive,' was all
you told me."
--
foxg...@globalserve.net
--
Matthew Murray
On 5 Mar 1997, GraemeCree wrote:
> Does anybody know how many Infocom games were certified in each
> category? Were Zork I and Hitchhiker's the only Platinum games? And what
> was the worst selling Infocom game? Offhand I'd guess it was either
> Seastalker or Cutthroats, but I really have no idea.
I'm not at all sure, but I think I heard somewhere it was
Plundered Hearts.
Julian Arnold
In article <5fk6ee$s...@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>, Matthew Daly
<URL:mailto:da...@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:
>
> In article <19970305043...@ladder01.news.aol.com> graem...@aol.com (GraemeC
> ree) writes:
> > True, but I would be interested in hearing something more objective,
> >such as sales figures. Everybody knows that Zork I and Hitchhiker's Guide
> >are the two top-selling Infocom games, but beyond that nothing has been
> >made very clear.
>
> Yeah, but what does that really mean? HGTTG was a best-selling game,
> but it's not on many people's "must play" list.
But it would give a clue as to which games are on the most peoples "have
played" list.
> I would guess Moonmist myself, or maybe Ballyhoo. If Cutthroats is on
> or near the bottom of the list, it isn't for lack of playability or
> enjoyability. (It's an easy game, but that shouldn't be held against
> it.)
To me Cutthroats felt like it hadn't actually made it out of beta
testing yet. It wasn't bugfilled or anything like that, but it just
felt... well... shoddy. I can't quite put my finger on which aspect of
it I disliked (ISTR poorly written descriptions (for an Infocom game),
and a few parser troubles, though I couldn't give specific examples
right now). Nice idea, poorly realised.
GraemeCree
>I thought it was cheesy as hell. An perfect example of tying things
>together *without* a good reason. It didn't resolve anything from Zork I;
>it was just, hey, let's put in a Zork I reference.
At the risk of sounding stupid, I never understood why your character
spends the whole game running all over Zork trying to find items to avoid
the curse of Megaboz, only to find at the end that he's actually made it
possible for the curse to be fullfilled, and doesn't resent being played
for a sucker all that time. True, he was primarily in it for the money,
and he ends up being rewarded in the end, albiet differently than he
expected, but it would still make most people feel rather foolish. I mean
even the parchment that Megaboz "accidentally" says that the curse will be
stopped rather than fulfilled if the player completes the mission.
Are we supposed to believe that if your character had failed, then
the curse would have ended, leaving Wurb Flathead still in power and the
G.U.E. intact?
GraemeCree
> And I tend to agree with the one often quoted review: "AMFV isn't 1984,
>but in some ways, it's even scarier".
Yes, but I still tend to think of TV's The Prisoner as the last and
best word in the 1984 genre, although admittedly, unlike AMFV it had very
little to do with artificial intelligence.
GraemeCree
>If Cutthroats is on or near the bottom of the list, it isn't for lack of
playability or
>enjoyability. (It's an easy game, but that shouldn't be held against
it.)
I have this idea that Cutthroats was a bad seller from some remark
that Dave Lebling once made in a Compuserve online conference that
Cornerstone sold "even worse" than Cutthroats. This tends to imply that
Cutthroats was at or near the bottom in sales figures. However, I'd be
surprised if it sold less than Arthur, Sherlock or Bordre Zone, simply
because those games were on the shelves for such a short period of time.
Scott Forbes
In article <ant04231...@arnod.demon.co.uk>, Julian Arnold
<jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970304001...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
>Matthew Murray <URL:mailto:n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> <cough, cough> And, pray tell, exactly WHAT was wrong with Sorcerer?
>
>Hm, maybe I overstated. There's nothing wrong with Sorcerer. It's one
>of the better Infocom games. It's just that Enchanter is notable for
>being the first of the trilogy, Spellbreaker is notable for it's puzzles
>(which were mostly far too difficult for me, though I did do the thing
>with the two moving rock creatures without help), and Sorcerer is stuck
>in the middle.
Actually there are elements of all three games that stand out for me --
it's just that Sorcerer seems to have had more of them. It's also one of
the few Infocom games that I solved without resorting to hints (although I
spent several weeks trying to find the proper application for the YONK
spell), so that may color my perception somewhat.
I'd put the Enchanter sequence with the Ancient Terror *very* high on my
list of favorite moments in IF, though. Brrrr.
--
Scott Forbes for...@ravenna.com
Adam J. Thornton
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970304001...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>> sales suggest. Sorceror may be the weakest of the Enchanter games, but
>> only 'cos the other two are so good.
Too spread out, too diffuse. The temporal loop puzzle was a thing of
beauty, and I suppose the glass maze was one of the best nasty mazes ever.
But on the whole, the game was lacking a certain coherence. _Enchanter_
was filled with beautiful, tight puzzles, each one following hard on the
previous one. _Spellbreaker_ had a grandeur and a unity of feel rarely if
ever equalled. _Sorceror_ felt like a bunch of puzzles stuck together,
with little attempt to make the game feel like a single story.
Jonathan D Blask
On Wed, 5 Monday, Neil K. wrote:
> Hm. I'd say Terry Gilliam's Brazil would
be my last word in the 1984 - uh
> - genre. The Prisoner was a brilliant piece of work, but I don't quite see
> it fitting into that category somehow.
>
> - Neil K. Guy
>
Brazil was a great movie! I plan on buying the collector's
edition (the original director's cut) on laserdisc one day, as soon as
I can rationalize paying $100...
Matthew Daly
In article <19970306022...@ladder01.news.aol.com> graem...@aol.com (GraemeCree) writes:
>
> At the risk of sounding stupid, I never understood why your character
>spends the whole game running all over Zork trying to find items to avoid
>the curse of Megaboz, only to find at the end that he's actually made it
>possible for the curse to be fullfilled, and doesn't resent being played
>for a sucker all that time. True, he was primarily in it for the money,
>and he ends up being rewarded in the end, albiet differently than he
>expected, but it would still make most people feel rather foolish.
I thought that the curse would result in the destruction of the
kingdom, not just the line of rulers. I envisioned all of the cities
disappearing, people killed, all of that, which was spared when I
finished the game successfully.
>I mean
>even the parchment that Megaboz "accidentally" says that the curse will be
>stopped rather than fulfilled if the player completes the mission.
To play Devil's Advocate, isn't a fulfilled curse "stopped"? In the
sense that a curse is a threat of a certain action, the threat is
removed if the action is performed. Hmmm.
> Are we supposed to believe that if your character had failed, then
>the curse would have ended, leaving Wurb Flathead still in power and the
>G.U.E. intact?
Was not the G.U.E left intact? The documentation in Zork 2 indicates
that the cities were still populated in 948, although the areas that
the Adventurer explores seem to be largely ruins. Perhaps the
underground sections of the Empire were abandoned, but the G.U.E is
far more extensive than the stuff that Dimwit Flathead added during
his reign.
athol-brose
In article <ant05233...@arnod.demon.co.uk>, Julian Arnold <jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>To me Cutthroats felt like it hadn't actually made it out of beta
>testing yet. It wasn't bugfilled or anything like that, but it just
>felt... well... shoddy. I can't quite put my finger on which aspect of
>it I disliked (ISTR poorly written descriptions (for an Infocom game),
>and a few parser troubles, though I couldn't give specific examples
>right now). Nice idea, poorly realised.
I dunno. I've always had sort of a soft spot for Cutthroats. I bought it to
play during my self-study computer programming classes in high school, and was
fascinated by it. To tell the truth, it's one of only a few Infocom games I've
ever actually finished (despite owning them all). (The others? Zork 1, Zork 3,
Enchanter, Spellbreaker, Hitchhiker's, Witness, Deadline [the first I ever
played], Bureaucracy, Leather Goddesses, Lurking Horror, and Planetfall. I
guess that's more than I thought. *grin*)
I'd be willing to bet that the worst-selling Infocom game ever was Plundered
Hearts.
Gerry Kevin Wilson
In article <5fn36a$e...@er5.rutgers.edu>,
Wallace and Gromit <edh...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>
>There are the votes in the (largely unscientific... oooh 4 people voted :))
>SPAG.
Well vote, you lazy arses. We've even rigged up the SPAG website to let
you do it with forms. Just look for SPAG on yahoo. Sheesh.
*Mumblemumblemiserableloafersmutter*
(smiley captioned for the humor impaired.)
--
My new email address is: whiz...@pobox.com.
If that's too long for you, try g...@pobox.com.
Wallace and Gromit
matthew....@balliol.oxford.ac.uk (Matthew Biddulph) writes:
>Has there been a vote or general consensus to decide/recommend the
>best game(s) that Infocom published? Can someone point me at a webpage
>or file somewhere with a ranking?
There are the votes in the (largely unscientific... oooh 4 people voted :))
SPAG. But my favorites would be:
For puzzles (and humor):
Hollywood Hijinx
for atmosphere, description, characters:
The Witness
for Story:
AMFV
overall (combined):
BorderZone.
I think BZ and HH are largely underrated games. My favorites overall are
BZ and AMFV.
My least favorite games are probably Suspect, HHGTTG and the other adams
one. (Hey, even though they're childishly simple and lack much description,
Moonmist and Seastalker are still fun :))
Wallace and Gromit
whiz...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson) writes:
>In article <5fn36a$e...@er5.rutgers.edu>,
>Wallace and Gromit <edh...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>>
>>There are the votes in the (largely unscientific... oooh 4 people voted :))
>>SPAG.
>Well vote, you lazy arses. We've even rigged up the SPAG website to let
>you do it with forms. Just look for SPAG on yahoo. Sheesh.
>*Mumblemumblemiserableloafersmutter*
I did vote, quite a while ago... Thing is, I dunno if it counted or not...
(I think I voted the day before the last issue of spag came out, but I'm
not sure if it was working then... Did you recieve a whole bunch of votes?)
Chris Lang
At the risk of sounding stupid, I never understood why your
character
>>spends the whole game running all over Zork trying to find items to
avoid
>>the curse of Megaboz, only to find at the end that he's actually made
it
>>possible for the curse to be fullfilled, and doesn't resent being
played
>>for a sucker all that time. True, he was primarily in it for the money,
>>and he ends up being rewarded in the end, albiet differently than he
>>expected, but it would still make most people feel rather foolish.
>
>I thought that the curse would result in the destruction of the
>kingdom, not just the line of rulers. I envisioned all of the cities
>disappearing, people killed, all of that, which was spared when I
>finished the game successfully.
To tell the truth, I envisioned a similiar thing. The act of 'stopping
the Curse'
spared the rest of the Eastlands from everything except 'disrepair' from
being abandoned, but Flatheadia is punished for being solely the product
of the Flatheads' excesses, and thus a certain familiar landmark is
created that is a COMPLETE contrast to the excessiveness of Flatheadia.
However, since Zork Zero has no time limit (in fact, you get a
humorous remark if you go past 1000 turns and type 'time'), we may never
know for sure just what would have happened had the adventurer just did
nothing out of curiousity. It is, indeed, a flaw in an otherwise fine
prequel to the Zork trilogy.
>Was not the G.U.E left intact? The documentation in Zork 2 indicates
>that the cities were still populated in 948, although the areas that
>the Adventurer explores seem to be largely ruins. Perhaps the
>underground sections of the Empire were abandoned, but the G.U.E is
>far more extensive than the stuff that Dimwit Flathead added during
>his reign.
Indeed, the Eastlands was pretty much abandoned for fear of the Curse.
Whatever the Curse may have done without the gathering of the items for
the cauldron, fear pretty much caused the GUE to fall, anyway. Since most
of the underground areas were in fact in the Eastlands, and everyone
moved to the Westlands and island provinces like Antharia, the evacuation
of the Eastlands and the subsequent disappearance of Flatheadia was
indeed interpreted by historians as 'the fall of the Great Underground
Empire'. Or so that's how I interpret it, anyway.
Chris Lang
Nulldogma
Oh, fine -- my favorites are Trinity, Plundered Hearts, and most
everything that Steve Meretsky did.
Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause ne...@echonyc.com
http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Graham Nelson
In article <5fgcno$ihi$1...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, Adam J. Thornton
<URL:mailto:ad...@tucson.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> Me, my favorites are _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, and _Enchanter_. My least
> favorites are _Ballyhoo_, _Plundered Hearts_, and _Witness_.
Favourites: _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, _Zork II_ and _Infidel_.
Least favourites: _Journey_, _Zork Zero_, _Beyond Zork_,
_Planetfall_. (Sorry about that last one.)
Not played enough (and that includes me): _Moonmist_.
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
Julian Arnold
In article <19970307081...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Nulldogma
<URL:mailto:null...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Oh, fine -- my favorites are Trinity, Plundered Hearts, and most
> everything that Steve Meretsky did.
Right, I hereby declare Plundered Hearts as the most divisive Infocom
game (LGOP is the most devicive).
About half of you cite it (PH) as one of your least favourite, while the
Enlightened Ones among us recognize it as the masterwork it really is.
Julian Arnold
>
> I think BZ [Border Zone] and HH are largely underrated games. My
I'd second that (about BZ, I haven't played HH). But in the spirit of
this thread I won't say *why* I second it. :)
JID
In article <19970307081...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
>Oh, fine -- my favorites are Trinity, Plundered Hearts, and most
>everything that Steve Meretsky did.
Someone who admits to liking Plundered Hearts! Brave soul. I have to
admit, I'm rather fond of it, although I wouldn't call it one of my
favorites. I mean, sure, it took all of an hour to complete (and I am one
of those types who generally needs hints), but it's awfully funny as both
a parody and a tribute to bodice-rippers. I liked how Infocom was really
trying to hit so many different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to
them for attempting this one. It's not a genre I enjoy, and seen purely as
a game, it certainly falls far behind many of Infocom's others. But there
are a number of cute little moments -- maybe I'm just one of those who
feels that a game doesn't have to be a masterpiece to be an enjoyable
diversion. I also liked how Infocom was really trying to hit so many
different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to them for attempting this
one.
BTW, in response to whomever completely trashed my rhapsody about Zork
Zero (I'm not being coy, I just don't remember who it was), perhaps the
same applies. Spellbreaker may be a jeweled web of a game, but frankly I
didn't get a lot out of it (although I love the first two, especially
Enchanter, which has such a dark, ominous feel to it...jeez, I think I'll
go play it again right now, thinking about it, actually!). Spellbreaker
seems to be a game that really appeals to the hardcore IF players, and
although I adore IF and was totally obsessed with Zork etc. back in the
good ol' days, I don't think I'm skilled enough at it to call myself
"hardcore".
The format, sprawling settings, characters, "lore," and even the graphical
puzzles (which I usually hate) in Zork Zero combined into an almost
immersive experience for me; I can "see" every single one of those
locations in a way I can't with Spellbreaker. That seems to be my
criterion for how much of an effect a game has on me -- thinking back, I
can completely envision the environs of Enchanter; Zorks I, II, Beyond,
and Zero; Hitchhiker's; The Lurking Horror; Deadline; and Trinity, which
probably sums up which are my favorite games.
Joey
****************************************************
American Gothic fanatic or just a tourist in Trinity?
Read The Trinity Guardian: http://www.best.com/~owls/AG/
****************************************************
Guildenstern: He's -- melancholy.
Player: Melancholy?
Rosencrantz: Mad.
Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
Cheshire Cat: Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here.
(From "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern in Wonderland")
****************************************************
Johanna "Joey" Drasner: ow...@best.com (San Francisco)
****************************************************
Jason Compton
Julian Arnold (jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: Right, I hereby declare Plundered Hearts as the most divisive Infocom
: game (LGOP is the most devicive).
:
: About half of you cite it (PH) as one of your least favourite, while the
: Enlightened Ones among us recognize it as the masterwork it really is.
Did a lot of people say they didn't like it? A lot of people have guessed
it was one of the poorest selling (least sales) games, which is not
necessarily to say they didn't like it or that it's bad.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine (847) 741-0689 FAX
AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha WWW - http://www.cucug.org/ar/
The sands of time were eroded by... the river of constant change.
Adam Cadre
Whee, a poll!
My rankings:
First place, far and away: A MIND FOREVER VOYAGING
Second place: TRINITY
Third place: PLUNDERED HEARTS
-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc
Andrew Plotkin
Oh, I'll play.
Favorite: Trinity, AMFV, Spellbreaker, Beyond Zork
Least interesting: Hollywood Hijinx
Never bothered to play: Moonmist (On the Apple II, running off a
5.25" floppy, this was unplayably slow. Never got back to it.)
Most disappointing sequel: Stationfall, Zork Zero
Best story: Ya know, I might just nominate Wishbringer. Trinity was too
surreal to actually have a plot. AMFV, much as I liked it, was a lecture. :)
And finally.... I never liked Floyd all *that* much. He was ok. But the
closing scene of Planetfall, from the miniaturizer to the chase scene --
that was *great*.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Nulldogma
Jo wrote:
> Someone who admits to liking Plundered Hearts! Brave soul. I have to
> admit, I'm rather fond of it, although I wouldn't call it one of my
> favorites. I mean, sure, it took all of an hour to complete (and I am
one
> of those types who generally needs hints), but it's awfully funny as
both
> a parody and a tribute to bodice-rippers.
Mostly, it's just really well-written -- as you say, both as homage and
parody. And there's not one puzzle I can think of that feels tacked-on or
artificial. Much more story-like than most Infocom (or later, for that
matter) I-F. I had a lot of fun with it.
> I liked how Infocom was really
> trying to hit so many different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to
> them for attempting this one. It's not a genre I enjoy, and seen purely
as
> a game, it certainly falls far behind many of Infocom's others. But
there
> are a number of cute little moments -- maybe I'm just one of those who
> feels that a game doesn't have to be a masterpiece to be an enjoyable
> diversion. I also liked how Infocom was really trying to hit so many
> different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to them for attempting
this
> one.
But did you like how Infocom was really trying to hit so many different
fiction genres, and have to hand it to them for attempting this one?
Wallace and Gromit
edh...@eden.rutgers.edu (Wallace and Gromit) writes:
>There are the votes in the (largely unscientific... oooh 4 people voted :))
>SPAG. But my favorites would be:
Whoops, that should be "best" as favorites and best are always the same (for
example, Deadline is a very big leap in IFdom in general, but its poor
when compared to some of the later infocom games, simply because they're
more detailed, occasionally more creative in their puzzles and more powerful.
I also forgot to add that the most original Infocom game (one that truely
stretches the definition of a "text adventure") would be Nord and Bert. And
Wishbringer is a simple storyline done really well.
Admiral Jota
MKS...@prodigy.com (Chris Lang) writes:
[snip]
> However, since Zork Zero has no time limit (in fact, you get a
>humorous remark if you go past 1000 turns and type 'time'), we may never
>know for sure just what would have happened had the adventurer just did
>nothing out of curiousity. It is, indeed, a flaw in an otherwise fine
>prequel to the Zork trilogy.
[snip]
Well the remark you get for typing 'time' is explained it you type 'wait'.
So really, it's not that the game doesn't allow the *player* to wait and
see what would happen: someone won't allow the adventurer to just do
nothing. So I don't think that can be considered a flaw in the game.
--
/<-= Admiral Jota =->\
-< <-= jo...@tiac.net =-> >-
\<-=- -= -=- -= -=->/
Stephen Granade
Hmm,
After a bit of thought, I'd say:
Faves: Sorcerer, Trinity, HHGTTG*, Zork I
Dislikes: Stationfall, Zork III
Weak spot for: Starcross
Stephen
* "HHGTTG?" you say in disbelief, the pitch of your voice rising several
octaves. Well, yes. I solved it in tenth grade, after almost a year of
work and without hints. No other game has ever made me as happy or as
proud upon completion as HHGTTG did.
--
Stephen Granade | "It takes character to withstand the
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | rigors of indolence."
Duke University, Physics Dept | -- from _The Madness of King George_
Matthew Murray
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> And finally.... I never liked Floyd all *that* much. He was ok. But the
> closing scene of Planetfall, from the miniaturizer to the chase scene --
> that was *great*.
Add me to that particular list... I never really cared for
Floyd, either. I think what Steve Meretzky needed to do with him that he
never really did is integrate him in with the story in a major way. He
always seemed extremely superfluous to me. And, as cute as he was and
all that, for the most part, he just got in the way, and with the
relationship between Floyd and the player's character just not being
built up very much, I never quite got out of him what I felt I was
supposed to...
===============================================================================
Matthew Murray - n964...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!
-David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================
Daniel R. Lackey
Graham Nelson wrote:
> Favourites: _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, _Zork II_ and _Infidel_.
_Infidel_ gets high marks in my book, on the grounds that (SPOILER AHEAD!) it's just about the
only Infocom game where even the best-case scenario is a distinctly unhappy ending.
--
daniel r. lackey standing in government denies knowledge
jmdre...@earthlink.net the shadows XVI. the tower
===============================================================================
"God is dead." -- F.W. Nietzsche
"He's not dead, he's... pining for the fjords!" -- M. Palin
Daniel R. Lackey
Adam J. Thornton wrote:
>
> Me, my favorites are _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, and _Enchanter_. My least
> favorites are _Ballyhoo_, _Plundered Hearts_, and _Witness_.
_Spellbreaker_ was good, but I've never quite been able to finish it because I can't, even with
the aid of the walkthroughs and the Invisiclues, figure out how to solve the damn moving
rock/plain puzzle.
GraemeCree
>I'd put the Enchanter sequence with the Ancient Terror *very* high on my
>list of favorite moments in IF, though. Brrrr.
I think my favourite moment in Enchanter is when you get the Zork I
player to open the door for you.
GraemeCree
> Hm. I'd say Terry Gilliam's Brazil would be my last word in the 1984 -
uh
>- genre. The Prisoner was a brilliant piece of work, but I don't quite
see
>it fitting into that category somehow.
Yes, the Prisoner and Brazil are both part of the 1984 genre:
anti-utopian future, oppressive rulers, mind games, etc. Of course Brazil
is tongue-in-cheek, and the Prisoner isn't, but they're both very similar.
Yes, Brazil was a great flick, but I still think the Prisoner was
even better.
GraemeCree
>I thought that the curse would result in the destruction of the
>kingdom, not just the line of rulers. I envisioned all of the cities
>disappearing, people killed, all of that, which was spared when I
>finished the game successfully.
If that were the case, Megaboz would be angry with you at the end,
rather than happy.
>To play Devil's Advocate, isn't a fulfilled curse "stopped"? In the
>sense that a curse is a threat of a certain action, the threat is
>removed if the action is performed. Hmmm.
Yes. To be precise, the parchment says "halted" rather than stopped,
but you could make the same argument even there.
>Was not the G.U.E left intact? The documentation in Zork 2 indicates
>that the cities were still populated in 948, although the areas that
>the Adventurer explores seem to be largely ruins. Perhaps the
>underground sections of the Empire were abandoned, but the G.U.E is
>far more extensive than the stuff that Dimwit Flathead added during
>his reign.
To be more precise, the mages tell Dimwit, "We have delayed its [the
curses] effects for 94 years, but after that time, this castle, in fact,
all the eastlands -- will be destroyed."
At the end of the game, Megaboz says, "The Great Underground Empire
is no more, but Quendor remains. Quendor referred to both the eastlands
and the westlands. The westlands are definitely still inhabited after
Zork 0, but the eastlands seem pretty desolate. Since the underground
portions of the empire were all in the eastlands, it seems like the curse
was fulfilled to a T.
However, he also says, "As promised by decree, half the wealth of the
kingdom is yours!"
So, things are a bit confusing. The destruction of both the castle
and the eastlands were a part of the curse, as was the death of the 12
Flatheads. But the money was promised to the one who could THWART the
curse and prevent the destruction. There are a couple of possibilities.
One could be that by your actions, the eastlands were saved, but the
castle was still destroyed. There is nothing in the game to suggest this,
but it's possible. The eastlands still seem to be uninhabited afterwards,
but the westlands and Antharia seem okay.
There may be a way to tie all this together so that it makes sense,
but in any case, the answer is certainly not obvious, nor is the
difficulty addressed by the game at all. This takes away from my
enjoyment of the game to a certain extent, although I still liked it quite
a bit.
GraemeCree
> Indeed, the Eastlands was pretty much abandoned for fear of the Curse.
>Whatever the Curse may have done without the gathering of the items for
>the cauldron, fear pretty much caused the GUE to fall, anyway. Since most
>of the underground areas were in fact in the Eastlands, and everyone
>moved to the Westlands and island provinces like Antharia, the evacuation
>of the Eastlands and the subsequent disappearance of Flatheadia was
>indeed interpreted by historians as 'the fall of the Great Underground
>Empire'. Or so that's how I interpret it, anyway.
Hmm, how about this? Megaboz really did want to topple the Flathead
dynasty, and the effect of his curse really would have been to cause a
mass destruction of people and property. However, he never desired for
this to happen. He knew that the threat of the curse would cause a mass
evacuation of the Eastlands, which would achieve his ultimate goal without
killing the citizenry. Once the evacuation was in progress, he WANTED the
curse to be stopped so that the retiring populace could escape in safety,
but still leave the Eastlands deserted as he desired. What happened to
Flatheadia was not a part of the curse (which had been halted), but
something that he did separately.
Well, maybe. In any case, I wish that the game itself had been a
little clearer. It reminds me of difficulties I had with Star Trek III:
The Search for Spock, which never explained why they stole the ship and
went back to the Genesis Planet, when they didn't know that Spock's body
had been alive. The original purpose of that Vulcan ritual had nothing to
do with putting people's Katra's back in their living bodies. The
novelization makes some reference to storing them in the halls of
knowledge, but the movie doesn't even say that much. Oh well.
GraemeCree
>Most disappointing sequel: Stationfall, Zork Zero
Really? What was wrong with Stationfall? And shirley, er...surely,
the most disappointing sequel has to be Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2.
Adam Cadre
Chris Lang wrote:
> And I tend to agree with the one often quoted review: "AMFV isn't
> 1984, but in some ways, it's even scarier".
Graeme Cree replied:
> Yes, but I still tend to think of TV's The Prisoner as the last and
> best word in the 1984 genre [...]
Neil K. Guy added:
> Hm. I'd say Terry Gilliam's Brazil would be my last word in the 1984
> - uh - genre.
Actually, I'd call 1984 the last and best word in the 1984 genre.
Seriously -- it's an amazingly underrated novel: most tend to dismiss
it as dated USSR-bashing on a par with AMERIKA, when there's so much
more to it than that: it's one of the definitive statements on the
constructed nature of the self, on the relationship of language to
thought, on the nature of society and humanity and reality in general,
and at the same time, it's a gripping page-turner that doesn't try to
deliberately fly over the heads of the audience in order to sound more
intelligent than it is. I think it's one of the landmark works of the
century. (Of course, I'm seriously considering basing my dissertation
on the claim that WATCHMEN is alse one of the landmark works of the
century, so adjust your assessment of my opinion accordingly.)
Julian Arnold
In article <5fq6ec$5...@flood.xnet.com>, Jason Compton
<URL:mailto:jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>
> Julian Arnold (jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> :
> : Right, I hereby declare Plundered Hearts as the most divisive Infocom
> : game (LGOP is the most devicive).
> :
> : About half of you cite it (PH) as one of your least favourite, while the
> : Enlightened Ones among us recognize it as the masterwork it really is.
>
> Did a lot of people say they didn't like it? A lot of people have guessed
> it was one of the poorest selling (least sales) games, which is not
> necessarily to say they didn't like it or that it's bad.
I thought they did, and ISTR people saying they didn't like it in the
past. I know, let's have a vote. People who count PH as one of the
worst Infocom games email me with "I hate PH" in the subject, and people
who think it's one of the best email me with "I love PH" in the subject
(oh, don't base your vote on puzzles, characters, or any of that, we're
talking *enjoyment* here) and I'll post the results here in a week or
so.
My vote is a big "I love PH", so the score is already 1-0.
Andreas Hoppler
Favourite Infocom games: Trinity, Lurking Horror, Planetfall
Least favorite: AMFV, Suspect
-- Andreas
Adam Cadre
Andreas Hoppler wrote:
>
> Favourite Infocom games: Trinity, Lurking Horror, Planetfall
> Least favorite: AMFV, Suspect
How come you didn't like AMFV?
Matthew Murray
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Adam Cadre wrote:
> Andreas Hoppler wrote:
> >
> > Favourite Infocom games: Trinity, Lurking Horror, Planetfall
> > Least favorite: AMFV, Suspect
> ^^^^(!)
>
> How come you didn't like AMFV?
It shocked me, too, given that I think it's the finest computer
game ever written. One common criticism labeled against it, though, is
that there aren't very many puzzles, and that is true. Of course, I
thought that the richness of description, design, and story made up for
it, and it certainly is very "game-like" in a whole bunch of ways. While
I don't understand how anyone could not like it, be aware that some
people--albeit relatively few--do.
JID
In article <erkyrath...@netcom.com>, erky...@netcom.com (Andrew
Plotkin) wrote:
>> That seems to be my
>> criterion for how much of an effect a game has on me
>
>Agreed! But are you sure it isn't the other way around? The games that
>had little effect on you, you therefore didn't bother to visualize much?
>I can't tell which way causality runs.
This is a good point. After reflection, I think it really is -- for me --
the way I first described it, that the games I wasn't able to visualize
really well ended up boring or annoying me after a while.
JID
In article <19970308055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
null...@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
>Jo wrote:
Or Joey, even...
>Mostly, it's just really well-written -- as you say, both as homage and
>parody. And there's not one puzzle I can think of that feels tacked-on or
>artificial. Much more story-like than most Infocom (or later, for that
>matter) I-F. I had a lot of fun with it.
That's it, you've hit it. It's story-like, which may be why, as I said,
the hard-core Spellbreaker crew may not enjoy it as much. The mindset of
playing it isn't so much "How do I get around this cunning puzzle?" but
"What would the heroine of this story do now?"
>> I liked how Infocom was really
>> trying to hit so many different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to
>> them for attempting this one. It's not a genre I enjoy, and seen purely
>as
>> a game, it certainly falls far behind many of Infocom's others. But
>there
>> are a number of cute little moments -- maybe I'm just one of those who
>> feels that a game doesn't have to be a masterpiece to be an enjoyable
>> diversion. I also liked how Infocom was really trying to hit so many
>> different fiction genres, so I had to hand it to them for attempting
>this
>> one.
>
>But did you like how Infocom was really trying to hit so many different
>fiction genres, and have to hand it to them for attempting this one?
<blush> Okay, yes, okay, I saw that after I posted it. Please accept my
abject apologies; I was operating under the effect of a temperature of
101.
Joey (editor by profession, yes really)
JID
In article <5fr073$2...@er6.rutgers.edu>, edh...@eden.rutgers.edu (Wallace
and Gromit) wrote:
>I also forgot to add that the most original Infocom game (one that truely
>stretches the definition of a "text adventure") would be Nord and Bert. And
>Wishbringer is a simple storyline done really well.
I was going to ask what people here thought of Nord and Bert. I also think
it's one of their most original games, if not their most original, and
while it's uneven and gimmicky, I also enjoyed it a lot. Despite my recent
manglings of the English language here on r.g.i-f(justified or no), I
actually do love the language and love playing with it, and it was such
fun to mix Infocom's twisted sensibilities with such a pastime.
Joey
Matthew Murray
On 9 Mar 1997, Chris Lang wrote:
> Add me to that particular list... I never really cared for
> >Floyd, either. I think what Steve Meretzky needed to do with him that
> he
> >never really did is integrate him in with the story in a major way. He
>
> >always seemed extremely superfluous to me. And, as cute as he was and
> >all that, for the most part, he just got in the way, and with the
> >relationship between Floyd and the player's character just not being
> >built up very much, I never quite got out of him what I felt I was
> >supposed to...
>
> One point you've never specified when you brought this up before: Is
> it that you don't think the concept of the 'comic sidekick' works in a
> computer game, or is it that you don't think the concept of Floyd
> specifically works in a computer game?
I don't think the character of Floyd works in Planetfall. First
of all, he's tragically underused. If he is going to be a "major" part
of the game, I would like to see him be a major part of the game. He is
only used to solve two or three puzzles, puzzles which could have been
written with only minor changes to have them be solved by the player, and
probably would have been stronger. The best puzzle Floyd is involved in
is the radiation lab one--I wanted to see more like that. I wanted to
see Floyd do stuff that, for reasons of biology, your "human" character
could not. I wanted Floyd to be vital to the game, instead of just a
tag-along, which, for most intents, and purposes, is all he was. For
everything he actually did, there were numerous things he didn't do, and
I don't think three puzzles really justifies the inclusion of Floyd as a
character in the game. (Especially since, as a character, he isn't very
well-developed.)
If Steve Meretzky had gone further with the character, and actually made
him a deep "person", truly and utterly saddened by what happened to the
complex, etc., then I might have liked him better. As such, I liked him
much better in Stationfall--he seemed a deeper, richer character in that
game, but further development still might have maked me feel something
other than what I felt when the puzzles in that game requires you to kill
him. (That should have been a big, spotlit moment, but was relegated to
almost no importance at all.) I don't think Steve Meretzky knew exactly
what to do with Floyd--after all, look what happens if you pick Rex or
Helen. (That aspect of Stationfall always really bothered me, too--if
the only robot the game will let you pick is Floyd, why bother having
three from which to choose?)
> Granted, a lot of Floyd's gags get repetitive (repeated several
> times during one game session randomly), and tend to wear thin with
That never really bothered me that much...
> repetition, and granted Floyd more often than not would prefer playing
> games than just following whatever orders you give him (if you want
That never really bothered me either--I considered that part of
the character. What I resented is that, for the most part, you never
needed to use him for much of anything really important at all.
> robots that follow any command you give them whenever possible, try
> Suspended), but he redeems himself by providing help to the player
> (though in Planetfall, he's really only absolutely necessary for two or
> three puzzles; otherwise, you can give an item or two to him to lighten
> your load), and by providing company, as adventure game quests do tend to
> be lonely (the Zork trilogy adventurer travels alone, as does the
> Enchanter trilogy's mage, and Starcross' protagonist). Most tend to think
> the character of Floyd works, and adds much to the story of Planetfall.
> Though that is strictly a matter of opinion.
I think Floyd could have added a lot to Planetfall, if he had
been used as a symbol of the dead people that once inhabited Resida. But
Floyd had little to do with them. They built him and programmed him--I
wanted to see more of them in him. I wanted Floyd to be a constant
reminder that the world around me--and him--was essentially dead. I
wanted the fact that he was the last inhabitant on the planet played up.
I wanted Floyd to deal with that. (Of course, later events in the game
prove this wrong, but for the most of the game, that is the assumption
you need to make.) But, except for occasional, random exerpts, there
just wasn't much in the way of that in the game.
> Second question: Do you think Planetfall would have worked better if
> it had built up a 'lonely' atmosphere like Infidel, and had no one to
> keep the stranded ensign company?
I can see it working either way... If Floyd had been better
developed, I wouldn't have minded, nor would I have if he had been
introduced really, really late in the game. (In that case, though, the
entire game would need to be substantially restructured.) But, the game
could have worked well as a solo game, too, though Infidel is, as you
say, a prime example of this. The difference is that that game DOES
manage to get this across. Even Stationfall does, to a better degree,
and, as mentioned, I think Floyd works better in Stationfall. He has
more to do, plays a larger role, and just plain isn't in the way so
much. But, despite improvements in his character between the two games,
I still think Steve Meretzky needed to focus and decide on what he wanted
the character of Floyd to really be about.
Adam J. Thornton
In article <33219B...@earthlink.net>,
Daniel R. Lackey <jmdre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Graham Nelson wrote:
>> Favourites: _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, _Zork II_ and _Infidel_.
>_Infidel_ gets high marks in my book, on the grounds that (SPOILER AHEAD!)
>it's just about the only Infocom game where even the best-case scenario is
>a distinctly unhappy ending.
_Trinity_.
Adam
--
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | ad...@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928
Chris Lang
Add me to that particular list... I never really cared for
>Floyd, either. I think what Steve Meretzky needed to do with him that
he
>never really did is integrate him in with the story in a major way. He
>always seemed extremely superfluous to me. And, as cute as he was and
>all that, for the most part, he just got in the way, and with the
>relationship between Floyd and the player's character just not being
>built up very much, I never quite got out of him what I felt I was
>supposed to...
One point you've never specified when you brought this up before: Is
it that you don't think the concept of the 'comic sidekick' works in a
computer game, or is it that you don't think the concept of Floyd
specifically works in a computer game?
Granted, a lot of Floyd's gags get repetitive (repeated several
times during one game session randomly), and tend to wear thin with
repetition, and granted Floyd more often than not would prefer playing
games than just following whatever orders you give him (if you want
robots that follow any command you give them whenever possible, try
Suspended), but he redeems himself by providing help to the player
(though in Planetfall, he's really only absolutely necessary for two or
three puzzles; otherwise, you can give an item or two to him to lighten
your load), and by providing company, as adventure game quests do tend to
be lonely (the Zork trilogy adventurer travels alone, as does the
Enchanter trilogy's mage, and Starcross' protagonist). Most tend to think
the character of Floyd works, and adds much to the story of Planetfall.
Though that is strictly a matter of opinion.
Second question: Do you think Planetfall would have worked better if
it had built up a 'lonely' atmosphere like Infidel, and had no one to
keep the stranded ensign company?
Chris Lang
Daniel R. Lackey
Adam J. Thornton wrote:
> Daniel R. Lackey <jmdre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >_Infidel_ gets high marks in my book, on the grounds that (SPOILER AHEAD!)
> >it's just about the only Infocom game where even the best-case scenario is
> >a distinctly unhappy ending.
>
> _Trinity_.
... which I have yet to play, so I stand corrected. My apologies. Hopefully, I should have a
chance to play it soon.
JID
In article <19970308231...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
graem...@aol.com (GraemeCree) wrote:
> So, things are a bit confusing. The destruction of both the castle
>and the eastlands were a part of the curse, as was the death of the 12
>Flatheads. But the money was promised to the one who could THWART the
>curse and prevent the destruction. There are a couple of possibilities.
> One could be that by your actions, the eastlands were saved, but the
>castle was still destroyed. There is nothing in the game to suggest this,
>but it's possible. The eastlands still seem to be uninhabited afterwards,
>but the westlands and Antharia seem okay.
This is reeeeeallly reaching, but maybe it has more to do with posterity.
I mean, because of your deeds, the lore and history of the Flatheads will
survive (until, of course, the next greedy grizzled adventurer turns up
wandering aimlessly around a small white house).
Nulldogma
Joey wrote:
> I was going to ask what people here thought of Nord and
> Bert. I also think it's one of their most original games, if > not their
most original, and while it's uneven and
> gimmicky, I also enjoyed it a lot.
I laughed hysterically through two or three of the scenarios (the
restaurant, the farm, probably another I'm forgetting), then quickly grew
tired of it and put it aside. But for a one-joke game, it's a helluva
joke.
Marcy
I suppose I'm one of those players who prefer to get swept up in a storyline
- and I find that I tend to have a much easier time solving the puzzles in
such a game, because it's a cinch to place myself in the situation.
The best of these games is A Mind Forever Voyaging - the few puzzles barely
*seemed* like puzzles, because at the point they occurred I knew exactly what
to do, just because Perry Simm, as a character, was so wonderfully
constructed. I even hesitate to call AMFV a game; I think of it as a work of
fiction, and one of my favorites.
Trinity is another superb game that faithfully creates an eerie and yet
believable world, and unfolds in a spellbinding manner. I solved this one
without any hints, because the narrative enveloped me so completely.
Stationfall also does a very fine job of creating a structure and good
characters. I think I can still remember the blueprints of that station!
Then there are games which, if less brilliantly involving, are fun to play if
you get the joke, if you can insinuate yourself into them - Plundered Hearts
and Leather Goddesses of Phobos are good examples of this genre. Oh, and
Lurking Horror is very cute too.
I suppose it's just me, but Enchanter bored the snot out of me. The
detective games drag like no one's business. Shogun just pissed me off (but
then I've never read the novel.)
Julian Arnold
In article <cleofax-ya0240800...@news.javanet.com>, Russ Bryan
<URL:mailto:cle...@javanet.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
> [1] I'm surprised we haven't dicussed the educational possibilities of text
> adventures before, but I feel I learned a lot from Zork I (although Zork II
> was the better game). I plan to encourage my kids to play text adventures
> as soon as they can read.
People have mentioned this, but no-one seems to reply to the posts.
There is also a Web page on this (URL in rai-f FAQ, part F).
Adam J. Thornton
In article <cleofax-ya0240800...@news.javanet.com>,
Russ Bryan <cle...@javanet.com> wrote:
>This article will function as a logic problem. Can you list my ten
>favorite games, in order?
Trinity, Spellbreaker, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Enchanter, Sorceror, Zork
I, Zork II, Planetfall, Hitchhiker's Guide, Suspended.
Avrom Faderman
In article <332215...@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>Andreas Hoppler wrote:
>>
>> Favourite Infocom games: Trinity, Lurking Horror, Planetfall
>> Least favorite: AMFV, Suspect
> ^^^^(!)
>
>How come you didn't like AMFV?
Everyone but Andreas seems to be putting AMFV in their very top.
I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
inclined to think it's vastly overrated.
What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
literature on the PC--and it just wasn't. It was a nicely told,
well-written story.
If I remember correctly, Infocom billed it as "...serious science
fiction...a la '1984.'" We already _eave_ a _1984_; we don't need
another one. With the exception of the sentient computer as main
character, which was interesting but oddly unconnected from the feel
of the rest of the story, AMFV as fiction came off as a fairly
formulaic bit of dysutopian fiction, and one that didn't seem to _do_
any of the things that good dysutopian fiction does, at least for me.
I got no new insight about our real society or human nature out of
AMFV.
Maybe this is a pretty high standard to hold a computer game to. But
AMFV has been treated as more than a computer game, and because of the
relative lack of puzzles, I think it needs to have virtues beyond
those one expects from a computer game to be considered great.
Good, AMFV certainly is. Infocom's best work? I don't think so. My
money's still on Trinity. By a good margin. All it's cracked up to
be? Not in a million years.
-Avrom
Adam Cadre
Avrom Faderman wrote:
>
> I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
> inclined to think it's vastly overrated.
>
> What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
> about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
> literature on the PC--and it just wasn't. It was a nicely told,
> well-written story.
>
> If I remember correctly, Infocom billed it as "...serious science
> fiction...a la '1984.'" We already _eave_ a _1984_; we don't need
> another one. With the exception of the sentient computer as main
> character, which was interesting but oddly unconnected from the feel
> of the rest of the story, AMFV as fiction came off as a fairly
> formulaic bit of dysutopian fiction, and one that didn't seem to _do_
> any of the things that good dysutopian fiction does, at least for me.
> I got no new insight about our real society or human nature out of
> AMFV.
>
> Maybe this is a pretty high standard to hold a computer game to. But
> AMFV has been treated as more than a computer game, and because of the
> relative lack of puzzles, I think it needs to have virtues beyond
> those one expects from a computer game to be considered great.
>
> Good, AMFV certainly is. Infocom's best work? I don't think so. My
> money's still on Trinity. By a good margin. All it's cracked up to
> be? Not in a million years.
Hmm.
Taking AMFV in the context of dystopian fiction rather than of
interactive fiction, I certainly see your point. It's no 1984, no
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, not even a BRAVE NEW WORLD. In fact, speaking
as an AMFV advocate, I'd say that if it were a traditional story I
wouldn't like it very much. I think the key is who's in control of
the "camera," so to speak. There've been a number of critics of the
medium of film who object to being "told" what to look at -- what you
see on the screen is what the director wants you to see -- and it
occurs to me that the same is true for traditional fiction: what you
read is what the author wants you to read. It was the =lack= of this
kind of "manipulation," if you want to call it that, that made AMFV
work for me. If I were reading a story and came across the line,
"Perry nervously walked through the zoo. He passed a sign that read
'MONKEY TORTURING: 2 PM IN THE PRIMATE CAGE.'" I'd probably groan and
feel I was being lectured to. But when I played the game and =chose=
to walk through the zoo -- Steve Meretzky didn't force me to go there --
and =chose= to look at the sign -- Steve Meretzky didn't force me to
look at it -- and saw that message, it was quite chilling. TRINITY,
being much "narrower," made me feel like I was being led by the hand
through the story and thus didn't succeed for me in the same way --
though I still very much enjoyed it.
To condense this rant a little, I guess I'm saying that, for me, the
novelty of the immersive experience more than made up for the lack of
philosophical depth, and the fact that agency was placed in my hands
precluded me from feeling like I was being lectured to (the other
objection to it I've come across.) As for the lack of puzzles: not
being a puzzle person, this was, for me, not a fault to be made up
for but a genuine asset. But I realize I'm in the minority on this
one.
Erik Hetzner
> Actually, I'd call 1984 the last and best word in the 1984 genre.
> Seriously -- it's an amazingly underrated novel: most tend to dismiss
> it as dated USSR-bashing on a par with AMERIKA, when there's so much
On par with _Amerika_? I only finished half of Kafka's _Amerika_, but
didn't he write it /before/ the formation of the USSR? Or are we comparing
the two as county-bashers in general, not the specific country?
> more to it than that: it's one of the definitive statements on the
> constructed nature of the self, on the relationship of language to
> thought, on the nature of society and humanity and reality in general,
> and at the same time, it's a gripping page-turner that doesn't try to
> deliberately fly over the heads of the audience in order to sound more
> intelligent than it is. I think it's one of the landmark works of the
> century. (Of course, I'm seriously considering basing my dissertation
> on the claim that WATCHMEN is alse one of the landmark works of the
> century, so adjust your assessment of my opinion accordingly.)
I'd have to agree about _1984_, but I've never heard of _Watchmen_. :)
_1984_ is hardly USSR-bashing at all -- not in the way that _Animal Farm_
was, at least. Many seem to forget that Orwell was a long-time Socialist,
though he hated Communism, he didn't have much respect for England either.
(Well, the government, anyways. He was a bit of a nationalist.)
It's my personal belief that _1984_ is the most misquoted book in the
history of the world. :) Well, almost. The number of times things are
referenced as Orwellian or _1984_esque or whatever are incredible, and the
times the are absolutely off are almost as great. :)
--
Erik Hetzner | `I'm celebrating my love for you;
e...@uclink4.berkeley.edu | with a pint of beer and a new tattoo.'
JID
>> [1] I'm surprised we haven't dicussed the educational possibilities of text
>> adventures before, but I feel I learned a lot from Zork I (although Zork II
>> was the better game). I plan to encourage my kids to play text adventures
>> as soon as they can read.
My mother claims my ability and interest in math increased hugely after I
started playing the Zorks. Personally I'm inclined to doubt the former but
believe the latter; probably, I just realized that problem-solving could
be fun and rewarding, and once I applied it to the real world, whatever
ability I already had in math actually gained some use.
Matthew Murray
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Adam Cadre wrote:
> Whee, a poll!
>
> My rankings:
>
> First place, far and away: A MIND FOREVER VOYAGING
I could not agree more. To me, it has not only blown away every
other Infocom game, but every other computer game period. And I have
played a LOT. (Check out my website--AMFV is my favorite of them ALL.)
Russ Bryan
Might as well.
A TRS-80 with Zork I accounted for two years' worth of winter recesses in
eighth grade, so I have to love it because it brought me into the genre and
taught me a little something about patience and a lot about problem
solving.[1]
Suspended was the next game I tackled (Apple ][+), but I didn't get around
to solving it until last year. I'd really like to see it implemented with
a GUI or at least keyboard shortcuts to choose the robot you're commanding.
Give each robot its own status window. Although the concept is wonderful,
the inevitable clumsiness of its interface barely allows Suspended into my
top 10.
Spellbreaker sucked me in like no other text adventure has. I enjoyed
Enchanter and Sorceror (top 10, each of them, but Enchanter places higher),
but Spellbreaker was creatively more satisfying than any Infocom game I've
played. If the twelve-cube puzzle hadn't forced me to go to the hints this
would be my favorite game. Incidentally, I consider the Enchanter series
as a whole to be better than the Zorks.
As much as I enjoyed the Enchanter series, A Mind Forever Voyaging beats
them. It had a profound impact on my own writing style, and is the reason
why I know a characters' favorite color even if it never gets mentioned in
the story.
Trinity gets the top position, and is always the first game I recommend to
friends wondering why I'm playing a text adventure on a computer that can
display xx,xxx polygons per second. Trinity was also the first game I
solved without hints, so I guess I've got a soft spot for it.
Zork II, Planetfall and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy all make the list
as well, in that order.
This article will function as a logic problem. Can you list my ten
favorite games, in order?
‹ Russ
Giles Boutel
Favorite: PlanetFall. Damn funny to a 13 yr old player, and Floyd captured
my imagination totally. I still have some rather strange pictures I drew of
how I pictured him. PlanetFall was what I wanted to do when I grew up.
Least favourite: Moonmist. Like, why are the room descriptions in the box?
-Giles
Andreas Hoppler
In article <332215...@acpub.duke.edu>, ad...@acpub.duke.edu says...
: How come you didn't like AMFV?
Just couldn't get interested in it.
-- Andreas
Andreas Hoppler
In article <19970308232...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, graem...@aol.com
says...
: the most disappointing sequel has to be Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2.
I don't count that as _original_ Infocom game.
-- Andreas
Chris Lang
Most disappointing sequel: Stationfall, Zork Zero
>
> Really? What was wrong with Stationfall? And shirley, er...surely,
>the most disappointing sequel has to be Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2.
>
I think one of the disappointments with Stationfall is based on the
misleading ending of Planetfall, which implies that the still-unresolved
bits such as the helicopter and such would be used in the sequel. Instead,
the only sequel we get is set in a completely new setting, and of the
items found, only the paddleball set is used (and only by Floyd, never by
the player, and never for solving puzzles).
Stationfall has a much stronger storyline than Planetfall, though the
character of Plato could have been developed more, and the end game is
sort of anticlimatic (the dramatic intentions are obvious, but I don't
think it really works in *interactive* fiction). It's also grimmer than
Planetfall in many ways, though I'll say no more to avoid spoiling it for
people. However, all in all, it is a worthy successor despite its
shortcomings.
As for Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2, I haven't actually played it, so
I can't really say much. However, from what I've heard, it's not much
better than Activision's 'Return to Zork'...
Chris Lang
Andrew Plotkin
Avrom Faderman (av...@Turing.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> Everyone but Andreas seems to be putting AMFV in their very top.
> I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
> inclined to think it's vastly overrated.
> What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
> about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
> literature on the PC--and it just wasn't. It was a nicely told,
> well-written story.
Well, part of the reason I liked it so much is that it *was* a first.
You recall I put it in my top list *and* said that it was "a lecture."
But I'd never considered the possibility that a computer game could make
a sustained point. And then, on top of that, it made its point using the
techniques of IF, by letting you explore the scenarios yourself. It
couldn't have been done before Infocom, and it wasn't done until Infocom
saw the possibility in the tools from their own repertoire, and made it
real. That impresses the hell out of me.
In much the same way, I still think Myst is one of the top graphical
games. Even though I hated the story, and the interface has been imitated
and improved a dozen ways, and the art has been surpassed many times.
Originality counts.
(Please don't start listing all the technological lineage of Myst.
I mean the originality of bringing together all those techniques in that
way.)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Andrew Plotkin
> Really? What was wrong with Stationfall?
Dunno. I just forgot to care. I found the whole scenario, the abandoned
station and spaceship-city, to be entirely unengaging.
Maybe I was just in a bad mood the day I started it.
> And shirley, er...surely,
> the most disappointing sequel has to be Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2.
Not "an original Infocom game." Besides, I never played it.
Adam J. Thornton
In article <5fvk6m$1h...@newssvr02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
Chris Lang <MKS...@prodigy.com> wrote:
> As for Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2, I haven't actually played it, so
>I can't really say much. However, from what I've heard, it's not much
>better than Activision's 'Return to Zork'...
It's much much worse. But it's not really Infocom either.
Joe Frank
erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
>--Z
>--
Spoilers...
Stationfall....
Once I realised that the whole purpose was to find the stuff needed to
open the safe, I stopped getting involved in the story. It just became
a treasure hunt for Whatever items would open the safe. I knew that
once I got it open, that was pretty much the whole game, and it would
end soon. I guess I just couldn't get into it.
TTFN
Joe Frank
Adam Cadre
I wrote:
> Actually, I'd call 1984 the last and best word in the 1984 genre.
> Seriously -- it's an amazingly underrated novel: most tend to dismiss
Erik Hetzner wrote:
> On par with _Amerika_? I only finished half of Kafka's _Amerika_, but
> didn't he write it /before/ the formation of the USSR? Or are we
> comparing the two as county-bashers in general, not the specific
> country?
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean Kafka's AMERIKA; I meant the crappy 1987
ABC miniseries AMERIKA, about a Soviet takeover of the US. The
American flag is changed to a pair of portraits of Lincoln and Lenin
on a red field... it was about three years too late to really cash
in on "Evil Empire" hysteria, and bombed miserably.
Matthew Amster-Burton
ow...@best.com (JID) wrote:
>My mother claims my ability and interest in math increased hugely after I
>started playing the Zorks. Personally I'm inclined to doubt the former but
>believe the latter; probably, I just realized that problem-solving could
>be fun and rewarding, and once I applied it to the real world, whatever
>ability I already had in math actually gained some use.
And I would suggest that the former inevitably follows the latter.
Would anyone argue that interest and achievement constitute a feedback
loop that can operate as either a negative or positive one?
Let me make this hypothesis, unprovable of course: playing text games
greatly improved my troubleshooting skills, which made it easy to get
computer-related work. Possible?
Matthew
Allen Garvin
In article <5fn2ip$4...@news.one.net>, athol-brose <cinn...@io.com> wrote:
>In article <ant05233...@arnod.demon.co.uk>, Julian Arnold <jo...@arnod.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I dunno. I've always had sort of a soft spot for Cutthroats. I bought it to
>play during my self-study computer programming classes in high school, and was
>fascinated by it. To tell the truth, it's one of only a few Infocom games I've
>ever actually finished (despite owning them all). (The others? Zork 1, Zork 3,
>Enchanter, Spellbreaker, Hitchhiker's, Witness, Deadline [the first I ever
>played], Bureaucracy, Leather Goddesses, Lurking Horror, and Planetfall. I
>guess that's more than I thought. *grin*)
II had a problem with Cutthroats in that I could never figure out how to get
into the Salvage Office. There was the window behind, but I swear
"enter window" didn't work. I finally bought the hint book and found out the
syntax was "climb through window". This REALLY annoyed me. The version I
have now is release 23, and the Infocom Fact Sheet does not mention another
known version. I must have had a very early version, because Release 23
allows "enter window" and "north" and other syntaxes.
However, the most annoying game (to me) was Suspect. Though I thought I had
solved the murder, I never managed to win the game. Finally, I bought the
hint book (Cutthroats and Suspect were the only games I got hints for out
of all of Infocom's games), and found I had to "examine weather" or "examine
sky" when the murderer arrived in a wet raincoat and it wasn't raining.
After doing that one piddling thing, I was able to win it for good.
>I'd be willing to bet that the worst-selling Infocom game ever was Plundered
>Hearts.
I loved this one. I had a big grin on my face the whole time I played it :).
Allen Garvin
Allen Garvin
In article <33219B...@earthlink.net>,
>> Favourites: _Trinity_, _Spellbreaker_, _Zork II_ and _Infidel_.
>
> it's just about the only Infocom game where even the best-case scenario is a
> distinctly unhappy ending.
INFIDEL is my favorite game for overall atmosphere. The puzzles were simple
and I solved it in only 3 days, but the ending was so marvellously bleak.
It's also got my favorite packaging (among the early, interesting packages).
I love the handwritten letter that describes how well the voyage is going, and
the diary that tells the truth, and becomes more and more incoherent as the
drug takes effect.
Allen Garvin
Andrew Plotkin
> >My mother claims my ability and interest in math increased hugely after I
> >started playing the Zorks. Personally I'm inclined to doubt the former but
> >believe the latter; probably, I just realized that problem-solving could
> >be fun and rewarding, and once I applied it to the real world, whatever
> >ability I already had in math actually gained some use.
> And I would suggest that the former inevitably follows the latter.
> Would anyone argue that interest and achievement constitute a feedback
> loop that can operate as either a negative or positive one?
I wouldn't argue that statement, but I would claim it as nearly axiomatic.
> Let me make this hypothesis, unprovable of course: playing text games
> greatly improved my troubleshooting skills, which made it easy to get
> computer-related work. Possible?
Anything's possible. I don't think playing text games did anything for me
directly, but it spurred a lot of my early practice at programming,
because I was trying to write text games.
Erik Hetzner
> Oh, sorry. I didn't mean Kafka's AMERIKA; I meant the crappy 1987
> ABC miniseries AMERIKA, about a Soviet takeover of the US. The
> American flag is changed to a pair of portraits of Lincoln and Lenin
> on a red field... it was about three years too late to really cash
> in on "Evil Empire" hysteria, and bombed miserably.
Wow. I don't know if there's any word to describe that but bad. :) And
I've never even seen it.
Frankly, I'm a little impressed that you remember a mini-series like that
at all. :)
Samuel DAF Barlow
Is it me or is everyone underrating certain games?
Lurking Horror and Suspect seem to be vastly underpraised...Suspect was
a marvellously atmospheric game - I spent days just wandering around the
party; it did the "willing suspension of disbelief" thing really well..
Hollywood Hijinx was a great game too - not only did it have really
*funny* *quirky* puzzles, but the atmosphere was done well and
the game had a really unity about it. Yet it scores less than Cutthroats
on the SPAG index!
And why does everyone like STARCROSS - I found this game to be
very bare and thought the silly MENSA-esque puzzles irritating.
Cutthroats was another game I don't think of as
INFOCOM-quality..the puzzles were really dull and the parser didn't
quite cut it.
My Top INFOCOM games would be:
Suspect, Lurking Horror, Stationfall, Beyond Zork, Hollywood Hijinx,
AMFV, Bureaucracy, Spellbreaker.
My INFOCOM stinkers would be:
Starcross, Cutthroats, Sea-Stalker
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# /# # |..... S A M U E L -x- B A R L O W .....| # # \#
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#\ # ### \... "He kept flicking the brakes .../ ### #/ #
# \# #### \.. on the pushchair as though ../ #### #\ #
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#/ # ###### | track of time. Tick. Tock" | ###### # /#
#\ # ###### / \ ##### #/ #
# \# ##### /. .. sb6...@bris.ac.uk .. .\ #### #\ #
# /# #### /.. ..\ ### # \#
#/ # ### /... http://irix.bris.ac.uk/~sb6729 ...\ ## # /#
#\ # ### \______________________________________/ ## #/ #
William Rice
In article <cleofax-ya0240800...@news.javanet.com>,
cle...@javanet.com (Russ Bryan) wrote:
>
> Suspended was the next game I tackled (Apple ][+), but I didn't get around
> to solving it until last year. I'd really like to see it implemented with
> a GUI or at least keyboard shortcuts to choose the robot you're commanding.
> Give each robot its own status window. Although the concept is wonderful,
> the inevitable clumsiness of its interface barely allows Suspended into my
> top 10.
>
Suspended was one of my favorite games, along with the Enchanter trilogy.
I didn't find the interface clumsy, and I enjoyed the challenge of
handling multiple robots rather than being one central character, so to
speak. I agree with you that it would be a good idea to redo it with
multimedia etc. I'd play this one over a new graphical Zork any time. It
also has a bit more replay value than the rest of the games, since you can
optimise movements to get a "perfect" score, and retry the game under more
difficult settings. I suppose, of all their games, this one strays the
most from standard IF, and is really more of a game than a story. Still,
finishing it was fun, and for some reason it's one of the games I remember
best.
I liked Enchanter and Sorceror best in the Enchanter series. Spellbreaker
was good as well, but I was stuck in it for a bit too long to really enjoy
it as much. Enchanter had a memorable story to it, and I found it more
thrilling than Lurking horror. The puzzles were also reasonably difficult.
Sorceror was the most fun, but I found I finished it much faster than the
other two, especially Spellbreaker. Still, the time travel puzzle is a
classic, and the roller coaster ride was a treat.
All the sci-fi series were good, but I didn't enjoy Starcross that much. I
think it's because I only played it recently and it is obviously an
'early' game.
Never got into the mystery series, but Witness is next on my list now that
I have the entire collection.
--
William Rice
C.H Best Institute, University of Toronto
willia...@utoronto.ca
....Still waiting for EDLIN '95
Stephen Granade
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Erik Hetzner wrote:
> In article <332422...@acpub.duke.edu>, ad...@acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>
> > Oh, sorry. I didn't mean Kafka's AMERIKA; I meant the crappy 1987
> > ABC miniseries AMERIKA, about a Soviet takeover of the US. The
> > American flag is changed to a pair of portraits of Lincoln and Lenin
> > on a red field... it was about three years too late to really cash
> > in on "Evil Empire" hysteria, and bombed miserably.
>
> Wow. I don't know if there's any word to describe that but bad. :) And
> I've never even seen it.
>
> Frankly, I'm a little impressed that you remember a mini-series like that
> at all. :)
It's astoundingly funny in many parts. Towards the end the mere sight of
Robert Urich was enough to send me into a fit of giggling.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | "It takes character to withstand the
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | rigors of indolence."
Duke University, Physics Dept | -- from _The Madness of King George_