unjoseki
Mark-T
O to play
* * * * * * * *
* * X * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * b a * * * *
* * 7 X * * * *
* * 1 2 6 O * *
* * 5 3 4 * * *
* * * * * * * *
Now X is supposed to play 8 at a.
But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
* * * * * * * *
* * X * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* c 8 9 * * * *
* * O X * * * *
* * O X X O * *
* * O O X * * *
* * * * * * * *
So I cut at 9, he played c,
and I got a bad result (of course).
What's the best play after X plays 8?
I hate people who don't play joseki.
--
Mark
Ben Finney
> lower left corner
> O to play
In more conventional diagram style:
| . . . . . . . . O to play.
| . . X . . . . .
| . . . . . . . .
| . . b a . . . .
| . . 7 X . . . .
| . . 1 2 6 O . .
| . . 5 3 4 . . .
| . . . . . . . .
------------------
> Now X is supposed to play 8 at a.
Joseki doesn't work like that. If you think of joseki as what the player
is “supposed to do”, you'll always be vulnerable to players who don't.
Following joseki is a *weakness* unless you already know, in *this
specific game*, how you will punish an opponent who deviates from it.
> But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
| . . . . . . . . X to play.
| . . X . . . . .
| . . . . . . . .
| . c 8 9 . . . .
| . . O X . . . .
| . . O X X O . .
| . . O O X . . .
| . . . . . . . .
------------------
> So I cut at 9, he played c,
> and I got a bad result (of course).
>
> What's the best play after X plays 8?
What was the bad result?
> I hate people who don't play joseki.
That's a bit irrational. If you feel that way, perhaps you should not
follow joseki and instead remain flexible to whatever your opponent
does?
--
\ “It is the integrity of each individual human that is in final |
`\ examination. On personal integrity hangs humanity's fate.” |
_o__) —Richard Buckminster Fuller, _Critical Path_, 1981 |
Ben Finney
Joel Olson
news:9acef44b-da6f-4b49...@b7g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Your move 7 was not joseki.
If you want to play 7, do it before the hane-tsugi.
This pattern is discussed in both Yoshida and Kogo.
Joel Olson
news:nA8Il.19546$as4....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
Sorry, Ishida and Kogo's.
Mark-T
> > lower left corner
> > O to play
>
> > * * * * * * * *
> > * * X * * * * *
> > * * * * * * * *
> > * * b a * * * *
> > * * 7 X * * * *
> > * * 1 2 6 O * *
> > * * 5 3 4 * * *
> > * * * * * * * *
>
> > Now X is supposed to play 8 at a.
> > But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
>
> > * * * * * * * *
> > * * X * * * * *
> > * * * * * * * *
> > * c 8 9 * * * *
> > * * O X * * * *
> > * * O X X O * *
> > * * O O X * * *
> > * * * * * * * *
>
> > So I cut at 9, he played c,
> > and I got a bad result (of course).
>
> > What's the best play after X plays 8?
>
It absolutely is joseki.
The question is how to punish X,
after he plays 8.
> If you want to play 7, do it before the hane-tsugi.
Incorrect.
> This pattern is discussed in both Yoshida and Kogo.
Check again.
--
Mark
Joel Olson
Incorrect.
Check again.
--
Mark
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I stand by my original comment.
Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
(;AB[dp]AW[fq]SZ[19];B[cm];W[cq];B[dq]LB[dr:a][cp:b]C[a = early hane
b = standard joseki]
(;W[dr]C[Ishida takes up this variation in Vol. III,, p93, Ref. Fig. 14,
saying "the sequence to 9 is also a joseki.];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[bo]
(;B[fp]C[Ishida and Kogo's are the same - this is joseki.])
(;B[dn]LB[fo:a]C["If \[B} plays 9 here ... he ends in gote, so \[W\] will
start a fight by jumping to 'a'."]))
(;W[cp]LB[do:a][co:b]C[a = joseki
b = questionable move (Kogo's says "trouble")]
(;B[do];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[co];B[cn];W[fo];B[fn];W[go];B[en])
(;B[co]LB[bo:a][cr:b][dr:c]C["Dia. 36 (a joseki but ... ). Blocking at 4 is
a questionable move. Of course, if White answers at \[a\], there is no
problem. Black connects at 6 and the sequence to 12 is regarded as a joseki.
However, White will not necessarily respond so peacefully." - Ishida, p 94.
Kogo's: Black X is asking for trouble. White continues with b or c. White a
is not recommended, and certainly lacks fighting spirit.]
(;W[bo]LB[cn:a][dn:b]C[Kogo's: White 8 is a weak move.
Black continues with 'a' or 'b'.];B[cn];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[fp];B[eo])
(;W[cr]LB[dr:a]C["(difficult). The moment Black creates a cutting point in
his own shape by blocking at \[c5\], White may descend to 2, then answer 3
by cutting at 4. Playing hane at a plus connecting, then cutting at 4 is
also possible. Both variations are difficult, so in a handicap game the
chances are that Black will be outwitted. Black 1 at \[d5\] is the proper
move." - Ishida, p94];B[dr];W[do]C[Ishida ends here.
Kogo's continues:];B[eo];W[dn]LB[en:a][cn:b]C[Black continues with 'a'.
Black 'b' is a mistake.];B[en])
(;W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq]LB[do:a][bo:b][fr:c]C[Kogo's: White continues with
the strong cut of 'a', or 'b'.
White 'c' has complex variations.];W[do]C[Also possible.]))))
You can follow Kogo's developments further, if you're interested.
Mark-T
> I stand by my original comment.
> Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
>
> (;AB[dp]AW[fq]SZ[19];B[cm];W[cq];B[dq]LB[dr:a][cp:b]C[a = early hane
> b = standard joseki]
> (;W[dr]C[Ishida takes up this variation in Vol. III,, p93, Ref. Fig. 14,
> saying "the sequence to 9 is also a joseki.];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[bo]
> (;B[fp]C[Ishida and Kogo's are the same - this is joseki.])
> (;B[dn]LB[fo:a]C["If \[B} plays 9 here ... he ends in gote, so \[W\] will
> start a fight by jumping to 'a'."]))
> (;B[do];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[co];B[cn];W[fo];B[fn];W[go];B[en])
> (;B[co]LB[bo:a][cr:b][dr:c]C["Dia. 36 (a joseki but ... ).
> Blocking at 4 is a questionable move. Of course, if White answers
> at \[a\], there is no problem. Black connects at 6 and the
> sequence to 12 is regarded as a joseki."
>
> (;W[bo]LB[cn:a][dn:b]C[Kogo's: White 8 is a weak move.
> (;W[cr]LB[dr:a]C["(difficult). The moment Black creates a cutting point in
> his own shape by blocking at \[c5\], White may descend to 2, then answer 3
> by cutting at 4. Playing hane at a plus connecting, then cutting at 4 is
> also possible. Both variations are difficult, so in a handicap game the
> chances are that Black will be outwitted. Black 1 at \[d5\] is the proper
> move." - Ishida, p94];B[dr];W[do]
>
> Black 'b' is a mistake.];B[en]) (;W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq]
> LB[do:a][bo:b][fr:c]C[Kogo's: White continues with
> the strong cut of 'a', or 'b'.
> White 'c' has complex variations.];W[do]C[Also possible.]))))
Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
Anyway, the line you reference is a different
move for 7. The variation I posted is
certainly a joseki, if not THE joseki. You
can find it in Cho's or J. Davies' books.
X's 8 deviates.
I'm done with this "yes it is",
"no it isn't" inanity.
--
Mark
Ben Finney
> On Apr 28, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I stand by my original comment.
> > Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
> >
> > [… SGF document demonstrating Joel's argument …]
>
> Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
SGF isn't binary, it's an open text format for go and other games.
Admittedly not text designed for a human to read directly, but then the
same is true for HTML.
You can take the text of the SGF document and feed it to any of a number
of Go game viewers; “Quarry” <URL:http://home.gna.org/quarry/> is one
I like but you likely have used others and maybe have already chosen
one.
--
\ “If you continue running Windows, your system may become |
`\ unstable.” —Microsoft, Windows 95 bluescreen error message |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Joel Olson
On Apr 28, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > lower left corner
> > > O to play
>
> > > * * * * * * * *
> > > * * X * * * * *
> > > * * * * * * * *
> > > * * b a * * * *
> > > * * 7 X * * * *
> > > * * 1 2 6 O * *
> > > * * 5 3 4 * * *
> > > * * * * * * * *
>
> > > Now X is supposed to play 8 at a.
> > > But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
>
> > > * * * * * * * *
> > > * * X * * * * *
> > > * * * * * * * *
> > > * c 8 9 * * * *
> > > * * O X * * * *
> > > * * O X X O * *
> > > * * O O X * * *
> > > * * * * * * * *
Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
Anyway, the line you reference is a different
move for 7. The variation I posted is
certainly a joseki, if not THE joseki. You
can find it in Cho's or J. Davies' books.
X's 8 deviates.
I'm done with this "yes it is",
"no it isn't" inanity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```
I believe you're thinking of the joseki where X plays a
tight pincer instead of making the shimari.
ro...@telus.net
c
>I hate people who don't play joseki.
You should thank them for showing you something about the game that
you don't know.
-- Roy L
Mark-T
I dunno, that looks weak, like bowing
to X... if that's true, then 8 becomes a
good play, why is 9 the joseki? (insetad of 8)
> >I hate people who don't play joseki.
>
> You should thank them for showing you something
> about the game that you don't know.
You think I play go to strain my brain?
--
Mark