KGS booting people...
justafriend
may have the right to be an idiot, if you play on someone else's Go
server, it is their right to boot you for acting like an idiot if they
so choose. Ain't freedom grand?
Seems to me that there are (at least) two reasons to boot someone:
1) For punitive reasons
2) To deter others from engaging in similar behavior
I am interested to know if this new policy has cut down on the
undesirable behavior (reason 2). Any thoughts so far?
PhysicsGenius
> Personally I don't have a problem with the new KGS policy. While you
> may have the right to be an idiot, if you play on someone else's Go
> server, it is their right to boot you for acting like an idiot if they
> so choose. Ain't freedom grand?
So you don't believe that "freedom of speech"
trumps (morally, not legally) "financial interest"
for common carrier services?
Before you answer, consider this question: AT&T
has instituted a new policy. They will ban any
customers who mention anything anti-Iraq-war
during phone conversations. Do you still feel
that "freedom" is grand?
Alexandros
> Before you answer, consider this question: AT&T
> has instituted a new policy. They will ban any
> customers who mention anything anti-Iraq-war
> during phone conversations. Do you still feel
> that "freedom" is grand?
1. AT&T is providing a service that is for communication. I expect to
communicate as I wish. KGS and IGS are providing a service that is for
playing go. Expect to play go in any way you please--good or bad. KGS
and IGS are not your living room, however, and conversation can be
limited as they see fit.
2. Don't think your conversations are not monitored anyway.
3. AT&T has competition that you can go to. In the unlikely event that
it didn't, it would become commoditized and subject to government
regulation, as was the case with the power industry until recent
deregulation.
Alexandros
--
We don't do drive-bys, we park in front of houses and shoot.
And when the police come we fucking shoot it out with them too!
--Eminem
PhysicsGenius
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> asked the Oracle:
>
>>Before you answer, consider this question: AT&T
>>has instituted a new policy. They will ban any
>>customers who mention anything anti-Iraq-war
>>during phone conversations. Do you still feel
>>that "freedom" is grand?
>
>
> 1. AT&T is providing a service that is for communication. I expect to
> communicate as I wish. KGS and IGS are providing a service that is for
> playing go. Expect to play go in any way you please--good or bad. KGS
> and IGS are not your living room, however, and conversation can be
> limited as they see fit.
KGS provides a service that is for communication
too. It's called "chatrooms". You will find them
located directly adjacent to another service KGS
provides, which is playing Go.
> 2. Don't think your conversations are not monitored anyway.
>
> 3. AT&T has competition that you can go to. In the unlikely event that
> it didn't, it would become commoditized and subject to government
> regulation, as was the case with the power industry until recent
> deregulation.
I didn't ask if there would be options, I asked
how you'd feel about AT&T. Do you think that
their financial interest in the phone network
entitles them *morally* to censoring the users
that talk on it?
Bluejack
wrote:
>
> KGS provides a service that is for communication too. It's called
> "chatrooms". You will find them located directly adjacent to another
> service KGS provides, which is playing Go.
This thread is hardly worth the twenty seconds writing this post
will consume, but just one minor point:
The new "English Chat Room" seems to work just fine for
people who want to talk to each other in English. I don't
see any freedom of speech issues here.
Folks who want to complain about being oppressed will,
undoubtedly, find *something* to complain about, but
equating the sysadmins with fascists for creating a
special chat area is quite a stretch.
-b
WR
Exactly.
And PhysicsGenius seems to be missing a few neurons if he doesn't get that.
There are no moral obligations on the part of any Admin to suit the
peculiarities of people like PhysicsGenius. The terms of service are
public, it's stated how things are done, and so if one doesn't like it,
then rack off.
As for freedom, everyone has the choice to play Go where it suits them. But
it is fascism to then join a Go Server and try to change it to your liking.
How much freedom is there at IGS ? Let PhysicsGenius complain to IGS Admin
if he booted off for talking about KGS. At least at KGS one does not have
that problem.
Seems to me that PhysicsGenius is one of those fellows that will complain
about anything that runs against his seemingly pathetic bleeding-heart
leftie ( covert fascistic ) dreamings.
wr
Alexandros
> too. It's called "chatrooms". You will find them
> located directly adjacent to another service KGS
> provides, which is playing Go.
Not true. KGS provides a go-playing medium. Nevermind that it's free,
it's primary purpose is for people to play go; all other considerations
are secondary. I refer you to AIM, IRC, ICQ or other instant messaging
systems to have social chats.
If you doubt this, KGS stands for Kiseido Go Server. I don't see "chat"
anywhere in there.
> I didn't ask if there would be options, I asked
> how you'd feel about AT&T. Do you think that
> their financial interest in the phone network
> entitles them *morally* to censoring the users
> that talk on it?
Not their financial interest. Their morals, however, do. Just like the
morals of the man who started Chick Fil A entitle him to require all his
franchised stores to be closed on Sundays due to his religious beliefs.
It may be annoying to a. customers and b. those who actually run the
franchised stores, but it is that man's right.
It is my right to disagree with him, just as it is your right to
disagree with KGS. Moreover, it is your right to make your disagreement
known in a public forum. HOWEVER, it is not your right to make your
disagreement known on their server, in their chat rooms. That's their
turf. You go there on their terms, or not at all, whether you like them
or not.
Alexandros
--
And the sea remembered -suddenly!-
the names of all its drowned.
--Federico Garcia Lorca
joshual000
> KGS provides a service that is for communication
> too. It's called "chatrooms". You will find them
> located directly adjacent to another service KGS
> provides, which is playing Go.
You forget that there are at least 2 different modes
of 'chat'; 'shout' and it's equivalents,
'whisper/tell' and it's equivalents.
IMO 'whisper' is much more comparable to a private
telephone conversation.
'shout' on the other hand has a greater visibility,
greater scope of influence, and is less comparable
to a private telephone conversation.
Thus, any comparison between private telephone
conversation and 'shout' style chat is IMHO invalid.
--
Josh Larson
(joshual...@SPAMyahoo.com)
Ilan Vardi
>
> I am interested to know if this new policy has cut down on the
> undesirable behavior (reason 2). Any thoughts so far?
I received a very friendly e-mail from one of the administrators yesterday.
This went a long way to resolve the problems, as far as I am concerned.
-ilan
PhysicsGenius
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> asked the Oracle:
>
>>KGS provides a service that is for communication
>>too. It's called "chatrooms". You will find them
>>located directly adjacent to another service KGS
>>provides, which is playing Go.
>
>
> Not true. KGS provides a go-playing medium. Nevermind that it's free,
> it's primary purpose is for people to play go; all other considerations
> are secondary. I refer you to AIM, IRC, ICQ or other instant messaging
> systems to have social chats.
>
> If you doubt this, KGS stands for Kiseido Go Server. I don't see "chat"
> anywhere in there.
If you open up cgoban and log into KGS, I think
you will find that there are also chat rooms.
These chatrooms have not been provided by
Microsoft, IBM or Walmart, they have been provided
by KGS. It is a multi-media server. The primary
purpose is Go, the secondary purpose is chatting.
Both services are common carriers.
>
>>I didn't ask if there would be options, I asked
>>how you'd feel about AT&T. Do you think that
>>their financial interest in the phone network
>>entitles them *morally* to censoring the users
>>that talk on it?
>
>
> Not their financial interest. Their morals, however, do. Just like the
> morals of the man who started Chick Fil A entitle him to require all his
> franchised stores to be closed on Sundays due to his religious beliefs.
> It may be annoying to a. customers and b. those who actually run the
> franchised stores, but it is that man's right.
Are you claiming that "please keep the topic to
Go" is a moral?
Anyway, your analogy is false because "being able
to eat chicken in a restaurant on Sunday" is not
an ideal that free people believe in. Freedom of
speech is.
All I'm pointing out is that that moral that most
of us profess to believe in has been violated
here. We *say* we want everyone to be free to
speak but what we apparently *mean* is "only if I
agree with the speech and only in specially marked
areas and at certain times".
I cannot stress enough that I am fully in
agreement that KGS has no *legal* requirement to
allow anything. They could *legally* make us
insult our mothers in pig latin. My issue is that
that Freedom of Speech is an ideal that people in
America (and other free countries, to some extent)
claim to believe in. That ideal is not being
upheld here.
If it were just a matter of a room that had a
topic-specific chat, that would be one thing. But
the people who give up their free speech get
preferential treatment (in that they can much more
easily access the gamelist). That's simply not
right and no amount of "but he owns the
server!!11" changes the morality of the situation.
PhysicsGenius
This is a good point, but I think my comparison
still stands. KGS is a common carrier for both
shout and tell while AT&T is a common carrier for
just tell.
Also, the question about Mr Vardi still applies.
If he was booted for what he said during a tell,
isn't that exactly parallel to the phone example?
Planar
PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anyway, your analogy is false because "being able
> to eat chicken in a restaurant on Sunday" is not
> an ideal that free people believe in. Freedom of
> speech is.
How about the freedom of speech of the newbies who come into
the English Game Room and ask newbie questions? How about the
freedom of speech of the people who try to answer those
questions? _You_ are violating their freedom of speech when
you drown out their conversations with inane chatter.
If freedom of speech is really the absolute ideal that you make
it, if there must be no restriction whatsoever on what, where,
and when people are allowed to speak, then it's easy: freedom
of speech does not and cannot exist. Because everyone speaking
at the same time is just the same as no one speaking at all.
> We *say* we want everyone to be free to
> speak but what we apparently *mean* is "only if I
> agree with the speech and only in specially marked
> areas and at certain times".
_Of_course_ freedom of speech is only "in specially marked areas
and at certain times". I've always understood it this way, there
is no other possible interpretation.
> If it were just a matter of a room that had a
> topic-specific chat, that would be one thing. But
> the people who give up their free speech get
> preferential treatment (in that they can much more
> easily access the gamelist). That's simply not
> right and no amount of "but he owns the
> server!!11" changes the morality of the situation.
Look at it this way: you are free to chat as much as you want
in the English Chat Room. Your freedom of speech is not restricted
in any way. What is restricted is your Freedom Of Accessing The
Game List Easily. Is that such an absolute right that you can't
give it up in order to keep your freedom of speech?
--
Planar
remove the dash and .invalid from my address to send me mail
Mcgreag
<physics...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Alexandros wrote:
>> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> asked the Oracle:
>>
>>>KGS provides a service that is for communication
>>>too. It's called "chatrooms". You will find them
>>>located directly adjacent to another service KGS
>>>provides, which is playing Go.
>>
>>
>> Not true. KGS provides a go-playing medium. Nevermind that it's free,
>> it's primary purpose is for people to play go; all other considerations
>> are secondary. I refer you to AIM, IRC, ICQ or other instant messaging
>> systems to have social chats.
>>
>> If you doubt this, KGS stands for Kiseido Go Server. I don't see "chat"
>> anywhere in there.
>
>If you open up cgoban and log into KGS, I think
>you will find that there are also chat rooms.
>These chatrooms have not been provided by
>Microsoft, IBM or Walmart, they have been provided
>by KGS. It is a multi-media server. The primary
>purpose is Go, the secondary purpose is chatting.
> Both services are common carriers.
>
No where on kgs (except for the new English Chat Room) are the word
chat and room used together. It's you that decided they are "chat"
rooms. The closest you get is the rooms that are sorted under "social
rooms". The main reson for the rooms to support communication is to
help people in the process of creating and playing games.
Now anyone can create his own room and enforce his own rules there (as
long as they don't brake the ToS) and because of that there are
several rooms there general chatting in not only allowed but
encouraged. But there are also rooms with more strict rules, if you
don't like the rules of one room you can always go to another or even
create your own there you can enforce your rules.
MVH Olof Fridh
/Mcgreag
"Seven Swords
Seven Worlds
One Dream"
Motto of the Seven Worlds
PhysicsGenius
> In article <KI6kc.110607$L31....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Anyway, your analogy is false because "being able
>>to eat chicken in a restaurant on Sunday" is not
>>an ideal that free people believe in. Freedom of
>>speech is.
>
>
> How about the freedom of speech of the newbies who come into
> the English Game Room and ask newbie questions? How about the
> freedom of speech of the people who try to answer those
> questions? _You_ are violating their freedom of speech when
> you drown out their conversations with inane chatter.
I agree that flooding does violate other people's
freedom and that they should be booted. However,
"inane chatter" is not a sufficient criterion.
The criteria are:
1) Meaningless and repetitive. That's *literally*
meaningless, like the letter 'a' over and over,
not stuff you just don't agree with or jokes you
don't find funny.
2) More than a "reasonable amount" of speech. For
instance, so much talking that another person
can't speak. You imply that such was the case,
but having been in the ER before I know it wasn't.
Yes, there were times when the messages were
coming thick and fast. But that happens
everywhere. As long as everyone gets a turn,
there's no infringement. And everyone did get a turn.
> If freedom of speech is really the absolute ideal that you make
> it, if there must be no restriction whatsoever on what, where,
> and when people are allowed to speak, then it's easy: freedom
> of speech does not and cannot exist. Because everyone speaking
> at the same time is just the same as no one speaking at all.
Your definition is a straw man.
>>We *say* we want everyone to be free to
>>speak but what we apparently *mean* is "only if I
>>agree with the speech and only in specially marked
>>areas and at certain times".
>
>
> _Of_course_ freedom of speech is only "in specially marked areas
> and at certain times". I've always understood it this way, there
> is no other possible interpretation.
You may have understood it this way, but your
understanding is flawed. Freedom of speech is
allowed everywhere and at all times, *except* in
specially marked areas or at certain times. Such
as when it might pose a danger to someone's life.
>>If it were just a matter of a room that had a
>>topic-specific chat, that would be one thing. But
>>the people who give up their free speech get
>>preferential treatment (in that they can much more
>>easily access the gamelist). That's simply not
>>right and no amount of "but he owns the
>>server!!11" changes the morality of the situation.
>
>
> Look at it this way: you are free to chat as much as you want
> in the English Chat Room. Your freedom of speech is not restricted
> in any way. What is restricted is your Freedom Of Accessing The
> Game List Easily. Is that such an absolute right that you can't
> give it up in order to keep your freedom of speech?
You are a reporter. You need access certain
government documents for a story you are writing.
The gov't says you may have the documents as
long as you promise to "put a positive spin" on
your story. Is that an infringement on your free
speech or will you join the gov't in saying it's
merely a minor infringement on your "freedom of
accessing the information"?
Chris Lawrence
> You are a reporter. You need access certain
> government documents for a story you are writing.
> The gov't says you may have the documents as
[snip yet *another* pointless analogy]
Here's a good one. You're a Go player. You join KGS's English Room and
see a heated argument about US gun control. You think you see a comment
about Go but it's hard to spot it amongst the argument. You leave and
come back the following evening. You find there's a debate in progress
over Bush and Palestine. You think, "What the f**k is all this crap?".
You hang around and play a game. After the game you want to ask some
general questions about it but the debate has now turned into a
full-blown argument on Iraq and your question is quickly lost in the sea
of crap.
The change in structure is most welcomed - at last, discussion which is
*gasp* about Go and not some pointless impossible to resolve debate.
It's not even like you got told you couldn't talk about anything -
you've got a room for exactly that. What exactly are you looking for in
the Games room that makes it impossible to click the tab, have a glance,
then click back to the Chat room once in a while? I'm in five rooms
when I'm on there and somehow manage to keep up with the ones I'm
interested in simultaneously, why can't you? For that matter why not
take all argumentative debate OFF KGS and onto IRC where it can rage all
night in some obscure channel where it belongs?
Personally I'd like to keep all public areas (room chat and kibitz) free
from anything non-Go related and leave non-Go social chatting to private
rooms or public rooms dedicated only to chat or private chat or else
take it to IRC which is meant for exactly that. I can't believe the way
this gets made out to be some kind of free-speech issue. FFS get a grip
and grow up. What, precisely, is your gripe? No analogies, no
free-speech rants, a clear description of the problems you are
encountering as a result of the room changes. I've yet to see it.
--
Chris
Michael Alford
news:2DYjc.3083$TT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
Don't mean to intrude on your flaming of PhysicsGenius, of which I
approve, but you've repeated a myth about IGS which seems to still
have shreds of veracity in some circles, that people have been
kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS (or other server) in private
conversations. This is categorically false. No one has ever been
kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS in private chats, or in channels,
or in kibitz\chatter, nor even for shouts. This is the umpteenth
time someone with IGS leanings has addressed this here. I really
wish this myth would dry up and go away, there are enough real
issues confronting us without resorting to spreading myths. And I do
not care what Bantari tells you, he was not kicked off IGS for
talking about KGS (or other server). Thankfully, this particular
"problem" does not seem to be a real problem on either KGS or IGS.
Please return to your flame :)
Michael
PhysicsGenius
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, PhysicsGenius wrote:
>
>
>>You are a reporter. You need access certain
>>government documents for a story you are writing.
>> The gov't says you may have the documents as
>
>
> [snip yet *another* pointless analogy]
>
> Here's a good one. You're a Go player. You join KGS's English Room and
> see a heated argument about US gun control. You think you see a comment
> about Go but it's hard to spot it amongst the argument. You leave and
> come back the following evening. You find there's a debate in progress
> over Bush and Palestine. You think, "What the f**k is all this crap?".
> You hang around and play a game. After the game you want to ask some
> general questions about it but the debate has now turned into a
> full-blown argument on Iraq and your question is quickly lost in the sea
> of crap.
Apparently you need to try logging in for more
than 5 minutes at a time and for more than 2
nights. I've seen longish (15 minutes+)
discussions. I've also seen the ER be totally
inactive for up to an hour and that's in the
evening (US time) when everyone is logged in. It
is sometimes hard to get a word in during a party,
film at 11. If you want to talk to a specific
person, pull them into a corner. If you want to
change the subject, wait until the change is
natural. That's how life is. It's not about
banning everyone who doesn't Think Like Me so We
People Who Matter can talk Adult Stuff.
> The change in structure is most welcomed - at last, discussion which is
> *gasp* about Go and not some pointless impossible to resolve debate.
> It's not even like you got told you couldn't talk about anything -
> you've got a room for exactly that. What exactly are you looking for in
> the Games room that makes it impossible to click the tab, have a glance,
> then click back to the Chat room once in a while? I'm in five rooms
> when I'm on there and somehow manage to keep up with the ones I'm
> interested in simultaneously, why can't you? For that matter why not
> take all argumentative debate OFF KGS and onto IRC where it can rage all
> night in some obscure channel where it belongs?
Do you attend a Go club? If so, do you always
talk only Go with your club mates? Worse, if they
ever bring up anything else, do you tell them to
shut up and "take it to a bar where they can
chatter all they want"? Go players are humans and
humans like to communicate.
> Personally I'd like to keep all public areas (room chat and kibitz) free
> from anything non-Go related and leave non-Go social chatting to private
> rooms or public rooms dedicated only to chat or private chat or else
> take it to IRC which is meant for exactly that. I can't believe the way
> this gets made out to be some kind of free-speech issue. FFS get a grip
> and grow up. What, precisely, is your gripe? No analogies, no
> free-speech rants, a clear description of the problems you are
> encountering as a result of the room changes. I've yet to see it.
KGS is a server. KGS is also a community of
users. That community is NOT owned by the people
who own KGS the server but was, without warning,
torn into two groups. Group 1 are apparently
robots that only want to talk about Go with all
else being INPUT ERROR. Group 2 are normal
humans--they like to talk about all kinds of
things, including Go. For some reason, the person
in charge has decided that the normal humans
should be punished by having to follow
half-operational workarounds in order to do the
things they used to do, which was chat and
watch/watch-for games.
That's annoying enough, but then there's the free
speech side. Call it a rant if you want, but this
is something that angers me no end. I had the
exact same discussion on Slashdot from 1996-1998
and finally gave up on them. And look how
readable that site is now and what kind of
community (and groupthink) they have--they are the
laughingstock of the Internet, the example of how
NOT to run a website. How much more clearly can I
say this: Repression. Does. Not. Work.
Prohibition. Of. Speech. Does. Not. Work.
People find ways around it. Admins are forced to
play whack-a-troll. Eventually the other users
get sick of either the rebels that sneak through
OR tired of the linear tunnel vision that's left
when there are no rebels left.
But I'm still talking pragmatics--personally I
don't care if WMS and company have a hard time
enforcing their thought crimes laws. I'm only
pointing out the upcoming difficulties because I
have several alternate solutions to the original
problems (or perceived problems) that avoid these
issues AND keep the community intact.
The Founding Fathers thought so highly of free
speech that they made it the first item on the
agenda for a new country. They enshrined an
*ideal* into law. I thought all Americans were
proud of their freedoms, but I am slowly becoming
aware that most people don't understand that
freedom requires a price. The price for freedom
of speech is that sometimes people you don't want
to hear start talking. I've never had a big
problem ignoring people I don't want to hear, but
I guess some people would rather ignore an
important principle than maturely walk away.
Freedom of speech is not a law. It is an
*inalienable right*. That means that all humans
have it whether it is expressed or not. That is
why people in free countries deplore conditions in
non-free ones. If I was what is apparently the
typical KGS user, I would just say "Well, they
have different laws there. They can run their
country how they want--it belongs to them."
whenever someone is killed for speaking out
against the government. Instead, free people are
appalled that the foreign government is ignoring
the basic humans rights of its citizens. Those
people have rights *regardless of the law*. KGS
users have rights *regardless of the ownership of
the server*.
Jeff Nowakowski
>
> Don't mean to intrude on your flaming of PhysicsGenius, of which I
> approve, but you've repeated a myth about IGS which seems to still
> have shreds of veracity in some circles, that people have been
> kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS (or other server) in private
> conversations. This is categorically false. No one has ever been
> kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS in private chats, or in channels,
> or in kibitz\chatter, nor even for shouts.
So the whole Cornel/Dashn fiasco never happened?
-Jeff
-
> "Michael Alford" <ma...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>> Don't mean to intrude on your flaming of PhysicsGenius, of which I
>> approve, but you've repeated a myth about IGS which seems to still
>> have shreds of veracity in some circles, that people have been
>> kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS (or other server) in private
>> conversations. This is categorically false. No one has ever been
>> kicked off IGS for mentioning KGS in private chats, or in channels,
>> or in kibitz\chatter, nor even for shouts.
"Jeff Nowakowski" <jef...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> So the whole Cornel/Dashn fiasco never happened?
Let's see, Michael said "people" (plural) in the first sentence, and
then in the singular Michael mentioned only KGS, not Dashn nor NNGS.
Mr. Nowakowski, when exactly are you going to read the English language?
- regards
- jb
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Center for American Progress --
Progressive ideas for a strong just and free America.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/apps/custom/cap/findorg.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=45294
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick G. Bridges
> Do you attend a Go club? If so, do you always
> talk only Go with your club mates?
No, but if my conversation is getting in the way if beginners learning
the game, people playing the game, or people who want to talk about
the game doing so, I have the sense to take it to a different place (a
different booth, etc.) where it won't disturb the people who actually
want to play and talk about go at a go club, God forbid.
> But I'm still talking pragmatics--personally I
> don't care if WMS and company have a hard time
> enforcing their thought crimes laws.
Right, from the sounds of this, what you really seem to care about is
trolling this newsgroup and insult people by implying that they're
fascists of some sort. How sweet of you.
--
-Patrick Bridges bri...@cs.unm.edu GPG Key ID = CB074C71
GPG Key fingerprint = FEEA ECFF 1E23 148C 2804 FDD9 DB63 6993 CB07 4C71
joshual000
> Also, the question about Mr Vardi still applies.
> If he was booted for what he said during a tell,
> isn't that exactly parallel to the phone example?
A just parallel to Mr Vardi's situation
would involve something more than just
AT&T, like calling a 1-900 chat-line.
The use of this communication medium
may aid in drawing parallels to 'shout',
'channels', 'community', 'tell' etc..
So in this hypothetical analogy, the
protagonist 'dials in' but somehow is
not abiding by the chat-line's terms
of use. The terms of use could even
have been recently changed for purposes
of reflecting reality. This analogy
could then be extended to include a
subsequent conversation with a moderator
for the chat-line, during which the
hypothetical caller's connection
privileges are revoked.
AT&T's role in this analogy would be as
enabling the connection between the
protagonist and the chat-line, drawing a
parallel to an ISP.
--
Josh Larson
(joshual...@SPAMyahoo.com)
ian
I have to agree here. Sometimes when you log in nobody says anything.
Maybe ZeroKun will go /o_O/O_o/heh/ - but that's about it. Sometimes
you log in and, yes, people are talking. Some people I'm sure hate the
sprawling arguements, but I have seen instances of people leaving
because of an absence of any chat. People decide a room is boring and
just leave.
I think it's more a problem with people's willingness to interact in a
different environment.
Michael Alford
That you bring this up in this context demonstrates you know nothing
about it. Cornel was once banned from IGS. It was not for talking
about dashn. on IGS. Also, this issue is long since settled, Cornel is
back on IGS, he's happy to be there, all of us are happy to have him,
and he's at peace with the admins. And this has been true for quite
some time.
Cheers,
Michael
PS: If you haven't checked out www.golessons.com yet, give it a look.
You can always drop by IGS and check out one (or more) of Cornel's
lessons and\or reviews.
PhysicsGenius
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>>Do you attend a Go club? If so, do you always
>>talk only Go with your club mates?
>
>
> No, but if my conversation is getting in the way if beginners learning
> the game, people playing the game, or people who want to talk about
> the game doing so, I have the sense to take it to a different place (a
> different booth, etc.) where it won't disturb the people who actually
> want to play and talk about go at a go club, God forbid.
Yes, me too. However, there have been times when
I've been teaching someone and another person
interjects (with either related but too-advanced
concepts or even unrelated comments). I do not
get up and physically eject them from the club. I
just endure their impolite input and hope that the
person I am teaching is mature and intelligent
enough to stay on-topic with me.
>>But I'm still talking pragmatics--personally I
>>don't care if WMS and company have a hard time
>>enforcing their thought crimes laws.
>
>
> Right, from the sounds of this, what you really seem to care about is
> trolling this newsgroup and insult people by implying that they're
> fascists of some sort. How sweet of you.
I think the term "trolling" requires that the one
doing the supposed trolling is insincere. Why is
it not a valid question to ask how someone raised
in a free country could come to the conclusion
that, of two alternative solutions, the one
involving a reduction in freedom is the better one?
Not that I think KGS is alone in this. I have
seen several sites implement some forms of digital
Patriot Act, instituting "crack downs" for the
purpose of "law and order". It's pretty sickening
when you think about it. There ought to be an
Online Bill of Rights or we're going to have to
fight a war of independence once again, this time
in cyberspace.
Jeff Nowakowski
>
> That you bring this up in this context demonstrates you know nothing
> about it. Cornel was once banned from IGS. It was not for talking
> about dashn. on IGS.
So this post by you, where you reprimand Cornel for using "tell" to
talk about dashn, is wrong?
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=XV7j7.1146%24Kf.764793%40e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com
> Also, this issue is long since settled, Cornel is
> back on IGS, he's happy to be there, all of us are happy to have him,
> and he's at peace with the admins. And this has been true for quite
> some time.
It's nice that Cornel and Tweet can remain friends, after Tweet
posted this private conversation with Cornel:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=tweet.999285165%40igs.joyjoy.net
and Cornel accused Tweet of making it up:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=ffok7.1142%244z.1849%40www.newsranger.com
> PS: If you haven't checked out www.golessons.com yet, give it a look.
> You can always drop by IGS and check out one (or more) of Cornel's
> lessons and\or reviews.
I would never financially support somebody like Cornel. He groveled
to get back into IGS. He became one of IGS's rgg puppets after he
was let back in. He then spammed his ad for lessons here. At least now
he is using reviews as a vehicle for his ad.
-Jeff
ian
>
> >
> > Right, from the sounds of this, what you really seem to care about is
> > trolling this newsgroup and insult people by implying that they're
> > fascists of some sort. How sweet of you.
>
> I think the term "trolling" requires that the one
> doing the supposed trolling is insincere. Why is
> it not a valid question to ask how someone raised
> in a free country could come to the conclusion
> that, of two alternative solutions, the one
> involving a reduction in freedom is the better one?
>
Freedom is itself a limited concept.
Questions are a burden to others.
Answers more so.
keep asking and he might just use a different word.
Michael Alford
Twit.
Plonk.
Patrick G. Bridges
> Twit.
>
> Plonk.
Congratulations, Jeff! You too are now a member of Malf's "People who
out-argue me" list. (It's perhaps more well known as the "People who
expose me for the self-professed troll, flamer, and shill that I am"
list.) It's not really that hard to join, folks. Any more takers?
:)
-
>> "Michael Alford" <ma...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>>> That you bring this up in this context demonstrates you know nothing
>>> about it. Cornel was once banned from IGS. It was not for talking
>>> about dashn. on IGS.
> "Jeff Nowakowski" <jef...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>> So this post by you, where you reprimand Cornel for using "tell" to
>> talk about dashn, is wrong?
>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=XV7j7.1146%24Kf.764793%40e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com
Of course it was wrong for Cornel to use "tell" to promote Dashn.
And at the time many might have inferred that this was the reason for
Cornel's ban. Instead, the actual reason for his ban was due to Tweet's
investment of time and energy with webpages for Cornel, coupled with
Cornel's teaching games on -other- Servers for those advertised lessons.
Then, using "tell" for recommending another Server -became- egregious.
Strictly speaking, if only a "tell" were involved there would be no ban.
>> "Michael Alford" <ma...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>>> Also, this issue is long since settled, Cornel is
>>> back on IGS, he's happy to be there, all of us are happy to have him,
>>> and he's at peace with the admins. And this has been true for quite
>>> some time.
> "Jeff Nowakowski" <jef...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>> It's nice that Cornel and Tweet can remain friends, after Tweet
>> posted this private conversation with Cornel:
>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=tweet.999285165%40igs.joyjoy.net
>>
>> and Cornel accused Tweet of making it up:
>> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=ffok7.1142%244z.1849%40www.newsranger.com
Yes. Agree that this was quite strange, and so I wondered whether
Cornel uses the technical term "asshole" even for people who help him.
>> "Michael Alford" <ma...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>>> PS: If you haven't checked out www.golessons.com yet, give it a look.
>>> You can always drop by IGS and check out one (or more) of Cornel's
>>> lessons and\or reviews.
> "Jeff Nowakowski" <jef...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>> I would never financially support somebody like Cornel. He groveled
>> to get back into IGS. He became one of IGS's rgg puppets after he
>> was let back in. He then spammed his ad for lessons here. At least
>> now he is using reviews as a vehicle for his ad.
Jeff is criticizing somebody fighting impoverishment to be a Go
Teacher? What does Jeff suppose his function is here on a newsgroup?
ma...@spiritone.com (Michael Alford) wrote:
> Twit.
> Plonk.
Michael, you should eat partial crow on this one and accept the
misprints gracefully. Unlike Bantari, who does not publish any of his
"research", Mr. Nowakowski illustrated formal arguments with evidence,
which is what I have been asking Bantari to do. Jeff's comments were
not slander. More generally I think everyone can agree that it is not so
much these "Server Wars" at issue, but whether slander is prohibited.
For this record, this is one of those times where I take Michael to task.
Note earlier how Michael was willing to admit to his misimpressions:
>>>> From: Michael Alford (ma...@spiritone.com) Date: 2001-08-29
>>>>> Yes, I admit that my original post is not quite accurate
>>>>> in this matter. I confused the details concerning
>>>>> Mr. Burzo and the other person. I retract what I said
>>>>> about Mr. Burzo and Dashn.com
- and -
>>>> From: Michael Alford (ma...@spiritone.com) Date: 2001-08-29
>>>>> As I stated above, my original post was inaccurate due
>>>>> to my confusing the details of the matter. I apologize to
>>>>> Mr. Burzo, IGS, and all readers of this forum for any
>>>>> confusion that post may have caused.
Rarely it is that someone with courage can fess up to his own errors.
Can we find any examples where "Bantari" has made amends for the
numerous "dumpster garbage" slanders he has spewed upon r.g.g.?
- regards
- jb
-------------------------------------------------------
"Johnson Solids..."
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/JohnsonSolid.html
-------------------------------------------------------
Ilan Vardi
Once again, as far as I am concerned, the KGS problems are resolved when
administrators deal with users in the same way they want users to deal
with KGS.
-ilan
ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message news:<b26c09dc.04042...@posting.google.com>...
-
> ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
>> I received a very friendly e-mail from one of the administrators yesterday.
>> This went a long way to resolve the problems, as far as I am concerned.
ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
> Apparently, no one read this message that I posted a while ago.
> Once again, as far as I am concerned, the KGS problems are
> resolved when administrators deal with users in the same way
> they want users to deal with KGS.
Your message indeed -was- read. To construct your inferences
based upon faulty analysis of behavior was itself an inductive fallacy.
In your message you said "...went a long way to resolve..." but you
had not said that they were "completely/perfectly resolved." It is, of
course, fair to limit your concerns to "...as far as I am concerned..."
though people in Administrative Roles would evince concerns that
transcend their own personal concerns. That's why administrators
and users are not on an equal footing; why there is much asymmetry
in the relationship between administrators and users; why they won't
be dealing with each other in exactly the same way. In the parlance
of set-theory mathematics you could invoke a "type" difference. Not
all users may qualify to be administrators, and sometimes vice-versa.
So I'm uncertain that I can agree with your last statement: problems
are -not- resolved when there is nothing to distinguish administrators
from users. I hazard that I am speaking generally, for any Go Server.
Furthermore it is possible that your view was contributory to problems.
- regards
- jb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEA Agent Shoots Self During Gun Safety Class For Children...
http://www.local6.com/news/3254509/detail.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PhysicsGenius
administrator(s) did that made you happy after
being banned for, according to you, no reason?
mullens
Can we take it then that the administrators saw the errors of their ways and that
you were not required to grovel to rejoin KGS?
Or maybe it was a propaganda coup to retain you as a player in the face of competition from IGS.
-
mullens <mullensd...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Can we take it then that the administrators saw the errors of their
> ways and that you were not required to grovel to rejoin KGS?
What "error of their ways" was indicated by Sorry Admins at Sorry Server?
> Or maybe it was a propaganda coup to retain you as a player in the
> face of competition from IGS.
No doubt KGS offers "(relatively) inflated grovelling standards." :-)
- regards
- jb
-------------------------------------------------------------------
WINDFALL: Record income at Chevron-Texaco...
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1083180203526&p=1012571727085
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ilan Vardi
> Could you elaborate on what it was the
> administrator(s) did that made you happy after
> being banned for, according to you, no reason?
The administrator was friendly and polite, and took an interest in who
I was (he looked at my website). This was enough.
-ilan
P.S. I understand the reasons I was banned, even though I do not
consider them
to be strictly correct. In particular, the adminstrator did not follow
KGS terms of service: "Try not to take offense too easily if somebody
seems rude,
but at the same time try to be as helpful and friendly as you can."
-
ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
> ... I understand the reasons I was banned, even though I do not
> consider them to be strictly correct. In particular, the adminstrator
> did not follow KGS terms of service: "Try not to take offense too
> easily if somebody seems rude, but at the same time try to be
> as helpful and friendly as you can."
Obviously the effort at pretense and duplicity. When there
is no deep understanding of "friendliness" there is not going
to be any "friendly" atmosphere: neither patient nor charitable.
Destined for a slag-heap, KGS seems overwhelmed by fiefdoms.
- regards
- jb
--------------------------------------------------------
IRAQI PRISON DEBACLE (04/30/04)
http://www.vonbluvens.org/043004.mp3
--------------------------------------------------------
PhysicsGenius
Query: If you met President Bush and he was
friendly, polite and took an interest in you,
would you feel that made up for lying to the
American public about WMD in Iraq? Or does
interpersonal charisma have little or nothing to
do with justice?
Michael Alford
>
>ma...@spiritone.com (Michael Alford) writes:
>
>> Twit.
>>
>> Plonk.
>
>Congratulations, Jeff! You too are now a member of Malf's "People who
>out-argue me" list. (It's perhaps more well known as the "People who
>expose me for the self-professed troll, flamer, and shill that I am"
>list.) It's not really that hard to join, folks. Any more takers?
>
>:)
Selectively quoting out of context and tossing in some ad hominems do
not constitute an argument. It never ceases to amaze me that so many
people don't understand the term. Please refer to the table of logical
fallacies posted here several times (and perhaps brush up on debate).
I think it patently obvious the reason I plonked someone was the
unwarranted, uncalled for, egregious attack on Cornel. Said person
came to this group with some kind of personal agenda, taking into
account his posting history, and I see no reason to dignify this
beneath contempt insult by responding to it, I leave that to Cornel,
if he should so desire. May said person remain a double digit kyu.
While I was not surprised by the other article, I do admit to being
mildly surprised by your support for it, you being an "admin" and all.
I can understand you being miffed that Cornel chooses to play and
teach on another server other than the one you represent. So it goes,
KGS cannot supply him with adequate competition nor an adequate user
base from which to draw students, to say nothing re the behavioral
problems detracting from the function of the server, so Cornel plays
and teaches on a real Go server. Your support for Cornel's detractor
comes across as so many sour grapes. Bad form, Mr. "admin", bad press.
You know, when I say I consider KGS an asset, I refer mainly to its
potential. Sadly, the way it's constituted and run now, it's anything
but an asset. All this crap about "server wars" (which actually exist
only the minds of a demented few posting here, and certainly not in
the mind of anyone at PandaNet), the skewed misinformation and
outright lies posted to this newsgroup, the continuous slander of IGS
and its admins by a small but seemingly dedicated group, etc. do not
contribute one whit to the promotion of Go, and serve only as a source
of division within the Go playing community. This has been noted by no
small number of people. Hopefully, some day someone will acquire KGS
and run it properly (God knows there have been offers), so that it can
assume a productive role in international Go (for example, perhaps
running and broadcasting the Toyota-Pandanet Euro tour, or similar),
and end the acrimonious nonsense. Either that, or the "admins" over at
the Kyu Go Server are going to have to wake up to their
responsibilities to the international Go playing community, and to the
game itself (in my mind), although I hold no high hopes for this.
Cheer up, there's always tomorrow,
Michael
PS: actually, the troll, flamer, and shill positions all are currently
filled:
http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/art/sanfrancisco/igsthugs.html
but we do accept new applicants (pictured).
Chris Lawrence
> I can understand you being miffed that Cornel chooses to play and
> teach on another server other than the one you represent. So it goes,
> KGS cannot supply him with adequate competition nor an adequate user
> base from which to draw students, to say nothing re the behavioral
> problems detracting from the function of the server, so Cornel plays
> and teaches on a real Go server. Your support for Cornel's detractor
> comes across as so many sour grapes. Bad form, Mr. "admin", bad press.
KGS has many top level dan and pro teachers with a dedictaed student
following. You've already shown [1] that you won't let facts get in the
way of spouting your nonsense, and this is another example where I'm
happy to correct you. The teaching community is very much alive and
well on KGS, something I believe is down to the social atmosphere and
excellent client. The feeling is very much like going to a Go club.
[1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bujqo302695%40enews4.newsguy.com
I've snipped the rest of your bullshit, including the unwarranted
remarks about KGS needing to be "run properly". You can try to be as
much of a manipulative, slimy bastard as you want, Michael, but please
stick to facts when it comes to other parties.
--
Chris
Jeff Nowakowski
>
> Selectively quoting out of context
I gave an example of somebody being banned for mentioning dashn in
tells. What surrounding context disputes this?
> and tossing in some ad hominems
You called *me* twit, remember? Where did I attack you?
> I think it patently obvious the reason I plonked someone was the
> unwarranted, uncalled for, egregious attack on Cornel.
My remarks were in response to your propping up of Cornel. I did not
initiate discussion on whether Cornel was good or bad, you did.
Initially, I just used Cornel as an example of somebody who was
banned for talking about other servers on IGS.
> Said person
> came to this group with some kind of personal agenda
Yes, malf, it was to expose your lies and misinformation. Mission
accomplished.
-Jeff
Michael Alford
>I've snipped the rest of your bullshit, including the unwarranted
>remarks about KGS needing to be "run properly". You can try to be as
>much of a manipulative, slimy bastard as you want, Michael, but please
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>stick to facts when it comes to other parties.
As I recall, you were given a chance to salvage your reputation, you
chose not to take it. You are what you are. Live with it.
Patrick G. Bridges
Yeah, Chris. Shame on you for not "salvaging your reputating" by
becoming a turning into a manipulative, slimy bastard! I mean, Malf
has given you such a shining example...
Chris Lawrence
> > [malf]
> > As I recall, you were given a chance to salvage your reputation, you
> > chose not to take it. You are what you are. Live with it.
>
> Yeah, Chris. Shame on you for not "salvaging your reputating" by
> becoming a turning into a manipulative, slimy bastard! I mean, Malf
> has given you such a shining example...
Yes, I don't quite know which reputation needed salvaging or why,
perhaps Michael's been "misinformed" again.
--
Chris
Ilan Vardi
>
> Query: If you met President Bush and he was
> friendly, polite and took an interest in you,
> would you feel that made up for lying to the
> American public about WMD in Iraq? Or does
> interpersonal charisma have little or nothing to
> do with justice?
You're funny, but all your arguments fail to get at the
basic issue: I got booted on KGS after a campaign
at brinkmanship, testing the patience of the administrators.
I consider this somewhat similar to the endless discussion here
about the rules of go, that is, trying to find the exact limit
of rule sets. This campaign was successful, in the sense that
I annoyed the administrators sufficiently that they kicked me
off their server without following the KGS guidelines. All this
managed to prove is that the administrators are human (as was
pointed out in another post), but get annoyed too easily,
and lose sight of protocols in such situations. That's not too surprising,
since they are mostly computer nerds, that is, people who are well
known for lack of social skill (I should know, I am one of these).
On the other hand, my campaign also managed to induce administrators to
write code that is inconsistent with the KGS terms of service (the error
message I got), and perhaps this led to a heightened awareness on the part
of the administrators that they should be a little more polite with all
users, independently of how these are behaving, and, in general, that the
administrators should be more friendly with users, as consistent with
the terms of service. This is exactly how I see the e-mail I received.
Oh and yes, if I met GWB, and he was friendly and took an interest in me,
I would respond well. World leaders have difficult decisions to make, and
I do not feel they should be held accountable in situations not directly
related to these decisions. Oh and if you bring up Hitler, that means you
lose the argument, according to the Usenet principle that bringing up Nazis
is a last resort when you have nothing else to support your argument.
-ilan
-
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Query: If you met President Bush and he was
>> friendly, polite and took an interest in you,
>> would you feel that made up for lying to the
>> American public about WMD in Iraq? Or does
>> interpersonal charisma have little or nothing to
>> do with justice?
ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
> You're funny, but all your arguments fail to get at the
> basic issue: I got booted on KGS after a campaign
> at brinkmanship, testing the patience of the administrators.
> I consider this somewhat similar to the endless discussion here
> about the rules of go, that is, trying to find the exact limit
> of rule sets. This campaign was successful, in the sense that
> I annoyed the administrators sufficiently that they kicked me
> off their server without following the KGS guidelines. All this
> managed to prove is that the administrators are human (as was
> pointed out in another post), but get annoyed too easily,
> and lose sight of protocols in such situations. That's not too
> surprising, since they are mostly computer nerds, that is,
> people who are well known for lack of social skill (I should know,
> I am one of these).
A popular misconception. Computer professionals need to
know more about communications and theories of communications
than most people, seeming only only at first glance to be anything
other than socially inept.
> On the other hand, my campaign also managed to induce
> administrators to write code that is inconsistent with the KGS
> terms of service (the error message I got), and perhaps this led
> to a heightened awareness on the part of the administrators that
> they should be a little more polite with all users, independently
> of how these are behaving, and, in general, that the administrators
> should be more friendly with users, as consistent with the terms
> of service. This is exactly how I see the e-mail I received.
They're just "shining you on" while in the back room gleefully
celebrating their newly found "skills" to exercise a master/slave
relationship over "artificial sand castle in the air" worlds they create.
> Oh and yes, if I met GWB, and he was friendly and took an interest
> in me, I would respond well. World leaders have difficult decisions
> to make, and I do not feel they should be held accountable in
> situations not directly related to these decisions.
They can be held accountable for not taking proper action
so as to not invoke indirect situations not directly related to their
indecisions (or the -lack- of decisiveness, as the case may be).
> Oh and if you bring up Hitler, that means you lose the argument,
> according to the Usenet principle that bringing up Nazis is a last
> resort when you have nothing else to support your argument.
Which goes to say that "Hitler" wins the debate for the other guy?
Obviously a logical fallacy. "Hitler" is invoked at an early opportunity
to clear the air from the outset, and also because "Hitler" is one of
the -weakest- arguments (as in presenting "weakest" arguments first).
Also, the absense of analytical resonance over the events of the 20th
century continues to this day to -induce- delusional schizophrenia,
especially on the theme of whether some human beings are "more
special" than others, or not, concerning "right of return" (sic!) racial
supremacism to certain sectors of the planet that might well instead
be reduced to the vitrified coagulation they resemble, in mass media.
- regards
- jb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is Mossad Threatening Americans on American soil - Again?
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/April/27%20o/Is%20Mossad%20Threatening%20Americans%20on%20American%20soil%20Again%20By%20John%20Anast.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William M. Shubert
> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ZxPkc.67400$G_.6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>...
>>
>> Query: If you met President Bush and he was
>> friendly, polite and took an interest in you,
>> would you feel that made up for lying to the
>> American public about WMD in Iraq? Or does
>> interpersonal charisma have little or nothing to
>> do with justice?
>
> You're funny, but all your arguments fail to get at the
> basic issue: I got booted on KGS after a campaign
> at brinkmanship, testing the patience of the administrators.
> I consider this somewhat similar to the endless discussion here
> about the rules of go, that is, trying to find the exact limit
> of rule sets. This campaign was successful, in the sense that
> I annoyed the administrators sufficiently that they kicked me
> off their server without following the KGS guidelines.
You proved nothing of the sort. Yes, admins do make mistakes sometimes
when booting people. In your case, though, you violated the TOS; I warned
you; you were a smartass back; so I booted you. By the time I had warned
you, you had already violated the TOS by swearing repeatedly in the
English room, so by the TOS I could boot you right there, the TOS says
that the warning may not always come before you are booted. However, I
decided I would warn you, so I did, your answer indicated to me that you
had no intention of stopping the swearing, so I got rid of you.
Maybe you were playing some sort of bizarre game, but I was just trying to
keep the chat on the server from being offensive. By playing your "game"
you showed that you had no respect for the other people on the server who
you were offending with your fun. Please do not continue to play this
game on KGS, it is not welcome.
-
>> PhysicsGenius <physics...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Query: If you met President Bush and he was
>>> friendly, polite and took an interest in you,
>>> would you feel that made up for lying to the
>>> American public about WMD in Iraq? Or does
>>> interpersonal charisma have little or nothing to
>>> do with justice?
> Ilan Vardi wrote:
>> You're funny, but all your arguments fail to get at the
>> basic issue: I got booted on KGS after a campaign
>> at brinkmanship, testing the patience of the administrators.
>> I consider this somewhat similar to the endless discussion here
>> about the rules of go, that is, trying to find the exact limit
>> of rule sets. This campaign was successful, in the sense that
>> I annoyed the administrators sufficiently that they kicked me
>> off their server without following the KGS guidelines.
"William M. Shubert" <w...@igoweb.org> wrote:
> You proved nothing of the sort. Yes, admins do make mistakes
> sometimes when booting people. In your case, though, you
> violated the TOS; I warned you; you were a smartass back; so
> I booted you. By the time I had warned you, you had already
> violated the TOS by swearing repeatedly in the English room,
> so by the TOS I could boot you right there, the TOS says that
> the warning may not always come before you are booted.
> However, I decided I would warn you, so I did, your answer
> indicated to me that you had no intention of stopping the
> swearing, so I got rid of you.
Hmmm. At this late day and age we are finally learning that
Mr. Vardi was also "swearing" in "the English room" (gasp!), as
if the "swearing" earlier had no relevance when providing mention
of the details. Of course "swearing" is offensive, irrespective of
the room or channel on "Any Go Server." How could this have
been -possible- that neither Mr. Vardi, nor any other KGS rep,
would have failed to mention a -critical- component of the case?
But look at the language Bill Shubert uses, to describe his
action as an Administrator of KGS. Bill says "so I got rid of you."
It is the "getting rid of..." aspect which is being put into question.
Obviously Mr. Vardi was not "gotten rid of" because Mr. Vardi is
still here today, discussing the details of the situation. Bill thinks
the people, or players, are "gotten rid of" whenever they are booted
(or banned) from his Go Server. Nothing could be further from the
truth. Quite possibly Mr. Vardi and Bill could meet at a tournament at
some future date, having been paired at a Go Congress for example,
and then Mr. Vardi would have the option of speaking, "See, Bill,
you did -not- `get rid of' me..." The attitude Bill Shubert expresses,
in just a few short words, is revealing of that sagging quality for his
administrator management at KGS. "Indiscipline begins at the top."
And, of course, the notion that "getting rid of" certain people or
players who are stigmatized as "the undesirables" is one of the central
themes of Eric Hoffer's _The_True_Believer_, mentioned in T.Kaczynski's
_Unabomber_Manifesto_. Thoough Eric Hoffer and his 1951 book in
sociology has been identified a few times on this newsgroup, it seems
quite clear that the "lessons" of _The_True_Believer_ have not taken
root. KGS is a cult-crowd of "true believers" who can "get rid of" the
people and players they do not "like" (for whatever reason that may be).
At least, they "get rid of" them for purposes of delusional schizophrenia
and sand-castles in the air they build for hyping more of the same OCBs.
That's why Bill and others are quick on the draw to emphasize same old
pitter-patter drumbeats, concerning the alleged "friendliness" at KGS.
Need I also remind the newsgroup of 20th Century History, where it
was from another earlier era when Hitler decided to "get rid of" Jews?
Ooops, I forgot: means I am losing this argument, by mentioning Hitler?
> Maybe you were playing some sort of bizarre game, but I was just
> trying to keep the chat on the server from being offensive. By playing
> your "game" you showed that you had no respect for the other people
> on the server who you were offending with your fun. Please do not
> continue to play this game on KGS, it is not welcome.
In what manner is the "game" on a chatroom so radically different
from a conversational "game" played out on this newsgrouop? How
does it appear that Mr. Vardi is genuinely contrite whereas Bill Shubert
presses the matter with slanderous claims about Mr. Vardi's "swearing"
profanities into sacred and holy sepulchres of "the English Game Room"?
Let's have a transcript, so all can review. Otherwise ...is Bill LYING?
- regards
- jb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ATTACKED WHILE JOGGING
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040501/D82A0CG03.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ilan Vardi
>
> You proved nothing of the sort. Yes, admins do make mistakes sometimes
> when booting people. In your case, though, you violated the TOS; I warned
> you; you were a smartass back; so I booted you. By the time I had warned
> you, you had already violated the TOS by swearing repeatedly in the
> English room, so by the TOS I could boot you right there, the TOS says
> that the warning may not always come before you are booted. However, I
> decided I would warn you, so I did, your answer indicated to me that you
> had no intention of stopping the swearing, so I got rid of you.
Well, this does prove that you are not up to the level of chat in the
KGS room, which is characterised by rather subtle cultural
references. In this case, my "swearing" as you call it, was a
reference to the Politically Correct movement, which attempts to
censor standard idiomatic expressions because they may have offensive
interpretations. I used the two such phrases "chink in your armor"
and "nip in the air" which have been at some time or another censored
by well meaning universities, see for example
http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0202/voices0602-sallo.shtml
For example, a quotation from Chaucer that includes the word
"Niggardly" stirred a controversy at the University of Wisconsin
at Madison, when a black student complained about its inclusion in
a lecture. Obviously, her confusion resulted from the fact that it
sounds like "nigger," but there is no etymological connection between
the two words. (Niggardly is defined as stingy.) Even so, there were
many who insisted that its use was inappropriate, and that it would be
best to avoid the word, and any others that might upset people.
In a similar vein, many colleges recommend finding alternatives to
terms like "black sheep" and "blackmail," and even advise against
expressions like "a chink in his armor," or "a nip in the air,"
because of the possibility that their use might offend sensibilities.
Hey, look again at the transcript, and you'll see that those were the
supposed offensive statements... To be honest, I don't think that you
are of the above Politically Correct movement, more likely, you are
ignorant and don't even know what those idiomatic mean. In
particular, I have no doubt that you would have banned me from KGS if I ever
use the word "niggardly", which you now know has absolutely nothing to
do with its homonym. Do you want me to test this theory?
> Maybe you were playing some sort of bizarre game, but I was just trying to
> keep the chat on the server from being offensive. By playing your "game"
> you showed that you had no respect for the other people on the server who
> you were offending with your fun. Please do not continue to play this
> game on KGS, it is not welcome.
Yes, it is not welcome because you don't know enough to appreciate what
I was referring to. Your booting me for being a "smartass", that is, smart,
proves that you can't take it. As I said many times now, you violated
KGS terms of service by being impolite and by writing KGS code with a
personal insult.
OK, but let's stop this arguing. As you saw in the title of this message,
I wrote "KGS problem resolved for me." I also said that I understood why
I was banned.
-ilan
Charles Matthews
> In this case, my "swearing" as you call it, was a
> reference to the Politically Correct movement, which attempts to
> censor standard idiomatic expressions because they may have offensive
> interpretations.
Oh, come on. At the best of times this talk is boring, tendentious and
consists of recycled anecdotal bits-and-pieces. At worst, it loses sight of
the main plank of academic freedom, which is not about being able to say
everything, but being able to discuss anything - within accepted norms. A
hell of a lot more important than chat on servers. Excuse my French.
Charles
-
> "William M. Shubert" <w...@igoweb.org> wrote:
>> You proved nothing of the sort. Yes, admins do make mistakes sometimes
>> when booting people. In your case, though, you violated the TOS; I warned
>> you; you were a smartass back; so I booted you. By the time I had warned
>> you, you had already violated the TOS by swearing repeatedly in the
>> English room, so by the TOS I could boot you right there, the TOS says
>> that the warning may not always come before you are booted. However, I
>> decided I would warn you, so I did, your answer indicated to me that you
>> had no intention of stopping the swearing, so I got rid of you.
ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
> Well, this does prove that you are not up to the level of chat in
> the KGS room, which is characterised by rather subtle cultural
> references. In this case, my "swearing" as you call it, was a
> reference to the Politically Correct movement, which attempts to
> censor standard idiomatic expressions because they may have
> offensive interpretations. I used the two such phrases "chink in
> your armor" and "nip in the air" which have been at some time
> or another censored by well meaning universities, see for example
> http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0202/voices0602-sallo.shtml
Unbelievable. Bill Shubert thought to miscast idioms subject to
racist misinterpretation as "swearing" ??? These are lighthearted.
There is no "room" for lightheartedness at "the English Game Room"?
As I have observed many times ... KGS becomes -more- unfriendly.
> For example, a quotation from Chaucer that includes the word
> "Niggardly" stirred a controversy at the University of Wisconsin
> at Madison, when a black student complained about its inclusion in
> a lecture. Obviously, her confusion resulted from the fact that it
> sounds like "nigger," but there is no etymological connection between
> the two words. (Niggardly is defined as stingy.) Even so, there were
> many who insisted that its use was inappropriate, and that it would be
> best to avoid the word, and any others that might upset people.
Another incident occurred with the aide to a Wash, D.C. mayor:
> In a similar vein, many colleges recommend finding alternatives to
> terms like "black sheep" and "blackmail," and even advise against
> expressions like "a chink in his armor," or "a nip in the air,"
> because of the possibility that their use might offend sensibilities.
>
> Hey, look again at the transcript, and you'll see that those were the
> supposed offensive statements... To be honest, I don't think that you
> are of the above Politically Correct movement, more likely, you are
> ignorant and don't even know what those idiomatic mean. In
> particular, I have no doubt that you would have banned me from KGS
> if I ever use the word "niggardly", which you now know has absolutely
> nothing to do with its homonym. Do you want me to test this theory?
Inclined to agree. Mr. Vardi was a victim of "political correctness."
Bill Shubert is -LYING- by mischaracterizing anal-PC as "anti-swearing."
Curiously, "Big Duck" has been absent recently, on the topic of "purity."
>> Maybe you were playing some sort of bizarre game, but I was just
>> trying to keep the chat on the server from being offensive. By playing
>> your "game" you showed that you had no respect for the other people
>> on the server who you were offending with your fun. Please do not
>> continue to play this game on KGS, it is not welcome.
> Yes, it is not welcome because you don't know enough to appreciate
> what I was referring to. Your booting me for being a "smartass", that is,
> smart, proves that you can't take it. As I said many times now, you
> violated KGS terms of service by being impolite and by writing KGS
> code with a personal insult.
Agreed. Calling somebody a "smartass" for using anti-PC phrases
is going way overboard. Indeed, the use of "smartass" is -far- more
offensive than "a chink in his armor" or "a nip in the air." Why should
the KGS administrators not be banned? Exposure on this ng suffices.
> OK, but let's stop this arguing. As you saw in the title of this
> message, I wrote "KGS problem resolved for me." I also said that
> I understood why I was banned.
Agreed. Bill Shubert went after Mr. Vardi, after he has apologized.
This is an egregious example of malfeasance at KGS. Let's have
that transcript now. As things stand, KGS Administrators look bad.
> "Ilan Vardi" wrote
>> In this case, my "swearing" as you call it, was a
>> reference to the Politically Correct movement, which attempts to
>> censor standard idiomatic expressions because they may have
>> offensive interpretations.
"Charles Matthews" <charles.r...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Oh, come on.
Where are we "supposed to be" going, Charles?
"Charles Matthews" <charles.r...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> At the best of times this talk is boring, tendentious and
> consists of recycled anecdotal bits-and-pieces. At worst, it loses sight of
> the main plank of academic freedom, which is not about being able to say
> everything, but being able to discuss anything - within accepted norms.
> A hell of a lot more important than chat on servers. Excuse my French.
You won't be able to discuss everything if you cannot say everything.
Notice that, in negative, need to use "everything" and not "anything."
Jesus used the technical term "hell" and did not excuse it as "French."
Which, all by itself, amounts to -another- use of an "offensive idiom."
- regards
- jb
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Iraq Prisoner Images Anger Arabs
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040501/D829QPU81.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Accused Soldiers Didn't Know Geneva Rules...
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-us-iraq-prisoner-abuse,0,2346010,print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Vit Brunner
> racist misinterpretation as "swearing" ??? These are lighthearted.
> There is no "room" for lightheartedness at "the English Game Room"?
> As I have observed many times ... KGS becomes -more- unfriendly.
>
> - jb
Maybe KGS becomes more unfriendly, yet
it is far more friendly than "jb".
- regards
- tasuki
--
,~'^^'~. When responding ,qdWWbp,
( ) change "nospam" (WMWMMWMW)
`~.,,.~` to "volny", VB. `"YMMP"`
Ilan Vardi
WMS, from how this thread is going, it seems to me that what will eventually
happen is that I will get banned from KGS for an argument that is
happening on this newsgroup. I don't want that to happen, and I don't
think that you do either (bad comparison to other servers).
So, please ignore my previous message, I apologize for statements
I made about you. If you accept this apology, you should also
consider the following points:
1. I named this threat: "KGS problems resolved for me"
2. I admitted that I provoked the administrators reactions, correct
or not.
3. I respond best to a friendly approach from administrators.
4. I stated that things would be resolved if all involved showed
more tolerance.
So why not stop all this arguing over what happened?
-ilan
mullens
> ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message news:<b26c09dc.04050...@posting.google.com>...
>
> WMS, from how this thread is going, it seems to me that what will eventually
> happen is that I will get banned from KGS for an argument that is
> happening on this newsgroup. I don't want that to happen, and I don't
> think that you do either (bad comparison to other servers).
>
> So, please ignore my previous message, I apologize for statements
> I made about you. If you accept this apology, you should also
> consider the following points:
>
> 1. I named this threat: "KGS problems resolved for me"
You miss the point - which shows that you still don't understand.
There are no KGS problems - it was you who was a problem on KGS.
>
> 2. I admitted that I provoked the administrators reactions, correct
> or not.
>
> 3. I respond best to a friendly approach from administrators.
To elicit a friendly response, it helps to avoid being a pain in the arse.
>
> 4. I stated that things would be resolved if all involved showed
> more tolerance.
Again, you are saying that it is you who was right.
>
> So why not stop all this arguing over what happened?
>
The best way to achieve this would be for you to shut up about it, or at least
to show complete contrition. Just remember that you are a guest on the server
and behave accordingly.
-
> "-" wrote:
>> Unbelievable. Bill Shubert thought to miscast idioms
>> subject to racist misinterpretation as "swearing" ???
>> These are lighthearted. There is no "room" for
>> lightheartedness at "the English Game Room"? As I have
>> observed many times ... KGS becomes -more- unfriendly.
Vit Brunner <tas...@nospam.cz> wrote:
> Maybe KGS becomes more unfriendly, yet
> it is far more friendly than "jb".
Sorry ... Did I ban you from the newsgroups ?
Had Charles Matthews complained to my ISP ?
- regards
- jb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYT PUBLISHES GRAPHIC SEX DESCRIPTION OF IRAQ PRISONER ABUSE
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/international/middleeast/03ABUS.html?ei=5062&en=24ed541a4cd27b34&ex=1084161600&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>> ila...@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
>> WMS, from how this thread is going, it seems to me that what will
>> eventually happen is that I will get banned from KGS for an argument
>> that is happening on this newsgroup. I don't want that to happen, and
>> I don't think that you do either (bad comparison to other servers).
I'm fairly confident that Bill Shubert does -not- make the mistake
of presuming that the "Ilan Vardi" on this newsgroup is necessarily
the same as the "Ilan Vardi" who connects to KGS, with the same
email address as the "Ilan Vardi" who posts to this newsgroup.
>> So, please ignore my previous message, I apologize for
>> statements I made about you. If you accept this apology,
>> you should also consider the following points:
>>
>> 1. I named this threat: "KGS problems resolved for me"
You meant to say "thread", not "threat" ... :-)
mullens <mullensd...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> You miss the point - which shows that you still don't understand.
> There are no KGS problems - it was you who was a problem on KGS.
Don't be ridiculous. There are problems on both sides. That's
how problems occur. If one party knows how to solve problems
then problems can be prevented, avoided, mitigated, resolved, etc.
>> 2. I admitted that I provoked the administrators reactions, correct
>> or not.
>>
>> 3. I respond best to a friendly approach from administrators.
> To elicit a friendly response, it helps to avoid being a pain in the arse.
There are many other ways of dealing with "pain in the arse"
such as blocking KGS "tell" or "shout" into KGS chatrooms. QED.
>> 4. I stated that things would be resolved if all involved showed
>> more tolerance.
> Again, you are saying that it is you who was right.
No, he is saying that what he says or does requires toleration.
In effect, it is to say that he needs "toleration" for being not right.
Handicapped people, for example, require much forebearance.
And yet ... handicapped people deserve "access" rights, as well.
>> So why not stop all this arguing over what happened?
> The best way to achieve this would be for you to shut up about it,
> or at least to show complete contrition. Just remember that you
> are a guest on the server and behave accordingly.
Alternatively, one could instead say that a "server" exists to "Serve."
- regards
- jb
------------------------------------------------------------
'Laser vision' offers new insights
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3647437.stm
------------------------------------------------------------
magni
your nicer than I am. Personally I think hes a cocksucker whose thirst
for nut juice is second only to his fascist tendency to boot someone
whenever they say anything he doesnt like...and not necessarily
something anti their TOS... which is also laughably fascist.
KGS will always be the KYU Go Server, its admins and most talkative
players are woefully weak.. and weakminded... save DmXdawg, unclefat,
cubyrop, and touyamejin who all demonstrate a very fun loving, spare
no suffering attitude towards improvement.. even if UncleFat takes it
a bit far sometimes its better to have guys like him promoting Go than
guys like Patrick prancing about like some fairy with his hand
alternating between his morbidly small cock and the boot button.
Someday, when someone with any brains takes over kgs and gets rid of
the fartknocking shills, asskissing fascist admins... maybe KGS will
mean KickAssGoServer. Sigh.. wishful thinking.
Magno no Go
ma...@spiritone.com (Michael Alford) wrote in message news:<c70fp...@enews3.newsguy.com>...
magni
both Asian and non asian clientele.. I just have to ask how could you
POSSIBLY think that KGS resembles A REAL GO CLUB? Jesus mate, if you
think so then all I can say is that your go club must really bite.
Personally, I think real go clubs are filled with people who care SO
MUCH about the game and their fellow players that they will use any
chicanery, evil doings, insults, groveling, name calling, various
types of baiting etc.. as well as any positive enforccement that comes
to mind so they their friends will improve.
KGS is so full of thin skinned shortsighted little twits who cant
handle a little ribbing let alone a lot.
Chris, you couldnt not be any further mistaken than you are. KGS is
NOT like a real go club... its full of people like Patrick Bridges
who, if I ever have the singular displeasure of meeting him over the
goban at a congress... Ill publicly flagellate myself if I ever lose.
And when I win badly by some large margin... I can assure you Im going
to laugh at him and call him the punk bitch that he is to his face.
God his wife is ugly BTW.
there are other admins at KGS that are bad...but patrick stands out
the most.
MAgno no Go
PS: If you ever get over to this side of the pond.. check out NY LA or
Chicago or even Northern Cali for some REAL go clubs.
Chris Lawrence <new...@holosys.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message news:<Pine.WNT.4.58.04...@holodeck3.holosys.wlan>...
Patrick G. Bridges
> ...Patrick Bridges, if I [meet] him over the goban at a congress...
Speaking of, I should be at the U.S. Go Congress in Rochester this
year, if anyone wants to have a friendly game or two, or have a
friendly chat over a few beers.
-Patrick
ian
<bile snip>
KGS is
> NOT like a real go club... its full of people like Patrick Bridges
> who, if I ever have the singular displeasure of meeting him over the
> goban at a congress... Ill publicly flagellate myself if I ever lose.
>
> And when I win badly by some large margin... I can assure you Im going
> to laugh at him and call him the punk bitch that he is to his face.
> God his wife is ugly BTW.
>
Don't you just love these little testosterone fuelled personal
attacks.
Real Go Clubs for Real Men. The Old Spice of the Games World. Rounding
it off with an attack on his wife (but laying off his mother) -shows
real flaming class.
Shame it's so pathetic really.
T Mark Hall
<bri...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU> writes
>michael_l...@yahoo.com (magni) writes:
>
>> ...Patrick Bridges, if I [meet] him over the goban at a congress...
>
>Speaking of, I should be at the U.S. Go Congress in Rochester this
>year, if anyone wants to have a friendly game or two, or have a
>friendly chat over a few beers.
>
>-Patrick
alcohol on site; will there be a problem at Rochester?
--
T Mark Hall
http://www.gogod.demon.co.uk
Fu, Ren-Li
actually patrick is one of the most cool headed, logical, nice and
go-community supporting admins I have ever 'met', on any go server, ever.
-frl
gowan
I doubt there will be a problem. I have fond memories of having a
beer with Ollie Lounela at a US Go Congress and whiskey with other
participants. Since the Congress in Rochester will be held in a hotel
there may well be a bar on site.
magni
> michael_l...@yahoo.com (magni) writes:
>
> > ...Patrick Bridges, if I [meet] him over the goban at a congress...
>
> Speaking of, I should be at the U.S. Go Congress in Rochester this
> year, if anyone wants to have a friendly game or two, or have a
> friendly chat over a few beers.
>
> -Patrick
Dude our game is going to be a onesided ass raping. Dont kid yourself.
You cowardly bitch!
Magno no Go
PS: Afterwards Ill be having a few beers while you have a nervous
breakdown with your pathetically ugly wife.
ian
say goodbye to your yahoo account magni
Ted S.
news:6c099e00.04050...@posting.google.com:
> Don't you just love these little testosterone fuelled personal
> attacks.
> Real Go Clubs for Real Men. The Old Spice of the Games World. Rounding
> it off with an attack on his wife (but laying off his mother) -shows
> real flaming class.
>
> Shame it's so pathetic really.
With all due respect to Patrick, I found magni's attacks so over the top
that I was laughing out loud.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
The way I see it, you raised three children who could knock out and hog-
tie a perfect stranger, you must be doing *something* right.
Marge Simpson, <http://www.snpp.com/episodes/7G01.html>
Ilan Vardi
Maybe you're right. From my observation of Yahoo Games chat, Yahoo
Terms of Service require you to use the word "gay" at least once
in every trash talk session, see http://cf.geocities.com/yahoo.html#trash
-ilan
magni
Patricks mother....I feel SOOOO remiss!!
Shame on me!
How 'bout: She should be sued for bringing a slumbitch like PAtrick
into the world...women should be held accountable for spawning fascist
nerds with power-trips.
Will that do?
Magni
ian....@durge.org (ian) wrote in message news:<6c099e00.04050...@posting.google.com>...
magni
What's your beef with testosterone anyways? DOnt have any? Surely your
internet savvy could lead you to someone who will sell it to
you....unless you are really a sex change candidate looking for
estrogen.
It's probably the latter isn't it you pedestrian fuck!
Magno no Go.
PS: I dont want to be deemed remiss by you again.. I mean really,
heaven forfend! So, I want you to provide me with a list of ways youve
become accustomed to be insulted. Then, I'll do so plus a few extra
you schmunda eating, dingle chewing kyu player. There I got in at
least one go related insult. Happy? ;-p)
PPS: You play with yugioh/pokemon trading cards dont you....GEEK!
ian....@durge.org (ian) wrote in message news:<6c099e00.04050...@posting.google.com>...
magni
Whatever ollie. Whatever. dont make me beat you again in go. You cried
for a week last time. I think the frozen climate has something to do
with your ability to not see things clearly. Crawl back into your
igloo!!
Go icefish with the McKenzie brothers.... eh? ;-p)
You Hoser,
Magno
Fu, Ren-Li
I don't get it.
-frl
Michael Alford
That's been obvious for months.
Fu, Ren-Li
>>I don't get it.
>>
>>-frl
>
> That's been obvious for months.
au contraire malf, if that IS your real name, it is you who do not get it.
I am a 3 dan. I have tricks you aint never dreamed.
-frl
Michael Alford
Your IGS account is 6k.
Fu, Ren-Li
IGS kind of sucks. after aligned 1d escaped from me, and it became apparent
that I would /lose the game/ because of his escaping, I remembered why I
stopped playing on IGS in the first place. Anyways, if you like I can post
all those IGS games where I creamed 1k and 1d again, if you like.
-frl
-
> Michael Alford wrote:
>> Your IGS account is 6k.
The "Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
> IGS kind of sucks. after aligned 1d escaped from me, and it became
> apparent that I would /lose the game/ because of his escaping, I
> remembered why I stopped playing on IGS in the first place. Anyways,
> if you like I can post all those IGS games ...
Owing to sigma sensitivity and volatility of rank graphs on KGS, it
will be continually problemmatic to claim any rank improvement unless
you -demonstrate- such claims while using your IGS gaming account.
- regards
- jb
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tweet
> Michael Alford wrote:
>
>
>>In article <tU1oc.11648$QaS....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
>>"Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Michael Alford wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I don't get it.
>>>>>
>>>>>-frl
>>>>
>>>> That's been obvious for months.
>>>
>>>au contraire malf, if that IS your real name, it is you who do not get it.
>>>
>>>I am a 3 dan. I have tricks you aint never dreamed.
>>>
>>>-frl
>>
>>
>> Your IGS account is 6k.
>
>
> IGS kind of sucks. after aligned 1d escaped from me, and it became apparent
YOU disconnected from this game. aligned 1d was shouting
that tsukino escaped.
> that I would /lose the game/ because of his escaping, I remembered why I
> stopped playing on IGS in the first place. Anyways, if you like I can post
> all those IGS games where I creamed 1k and 1d again, if you like.
>
> -frl
In the following game, a 4k* creamed you in an even game.
I can also post the game where a 3K creamed you too.
(;
GM[1]EV[Internet Go Server game: tsukino vs Ofriedli]
US[Brought to you by IGS PANDANET]
CoPyright[
Copyright (c) PANDANET Inc. 2002
Permission to reproduce this game is given, provided proper credit is given.
No warrantee, implied or explicit, is understood.
Use of this game is an understanding and agreement of this notice.
]
GN[tsukino-Ofriedli(B) IGS]RE[B+Resign]
PW[tsukino]WR[1k ]NW[28]
PB[Ofriedli]BR[4k*]NB[25]
PC[IGS: igs.joyjoy.net 6969]DT[2004-04-24]
SZ[19]TM[60]KM[0.500000]LT[]
C[
tsukino 1k : onegai shimasu
Ofriedli 4k*: have a good game:)
]
;B[pp]BL[46]
;W[dp]WL[57]
;B[pc]BL[44]
;W[dd]WL[55]
;B[fc]BL[42]C[
tsukino 1k : Crush me
]
;W[cf]WL[48]
;B[jd]BL[40]
;W[pf]WL[42]
;B[pj]BL[275]
;W[jq]WL[10]
;B[lq]BL[268]
;W[qj]WL[277]
;B[qi]BL[261]
;W[qk]WL[276]
;B[pi]BL[255]
;W[qn]WL[275]
;B[qp]BL[251]C[
saxifrage NR : heh, wonderful, start a fight in someone else's influence
]
;W[ro]WL[271]
;B[rp]BL[243]
;W[sp]WL[265]
;B[sq]BL[238]
;W[so]WL[259]
;B[rq]BL[236]
;W[ri]WL[253]
;B[rh]BL[234]
;W[rj]WL[250]
;B[qg]BL[231]
;W[qc]WL[248]
;B[qd]BL[229]
;W[pd]WL[247]
;B[rc]BL[225]
;W[oc]WL[242]
;B[qb]BL[224]
;W[lc]WL[240]
;B[od]BL[220]
;W[jb]WL[236]
;B[db]BL[218]C[
kitsune 5k*: this fellow doesn't like to give the other player territory.
]
;W[ic]WL[228]
;B[cc]BL[216]
;W[dk]WL[225]
;B[cq]BL[211]
;W[dq]WL[219]
;B[cp]BL[210]C[
muzic4007 14k*: well, he gave up four corners, so far
]
;W[co]WL[218]
;B[bo]BL[206]
;W[bn]WL[211]C[
saxifrage NR : that is not necessarily bad
]
;B[cn]BL[194]
;W[do]WL[209]
;B[bm]BL[193]
;W[bp]WL[208]
;B[an]BL[192]
;W[bq]WL[207]
;B[cj]BL[188]C[
muzic4007 14k*: but otto still has decent access to the center
kitsune 5k*: i'm referring to the fact that he's starting fights in
black's area of influence.
]
;W[dm]WL[193]
;B[ck]BL[183]
;W[cl]WL[183]
;B[bl]BL[181]
;W[dj]WL[182]
;B[hq]BL[298]
;W[ip]WL[176]
;B[gp]BL[297]
;W[ho]WL[299]
;B[fo]BL[295]
;W[gl]WL[296]
;B[er]BL[281]
;W[dr]WL[294]
;B[ir]BL[280]
;W[kr]WL[292]C[
kitsune 5k*: b could have playes k2?
saxifrage NR : sigh, there we were, things were rolling along in b's favor...
muzic4007 14k*: how does the k2 tesuji go again?
saxifrage NR : you give it up to connect over the top
kitsune 5k*: yes, i think k2 would have been better than j2
]
;B[fm]BL[150]
;W[gn]WL[285]
;B[dn]BL[148]
;W[fn]WL[284]
;B[en]BL[147]
;W[eo]WL[282]
;B[em]BL[146]
;W[nq]WL[277]
;B[gm]BL[142]
;W[oo]WL[269]
;B[op]BL[140]
;W[np]WL[268]
;B[no]BL[139]
;W[pn]WL[264]
;B[mo]BL[137]
;W[mr]WL[260]
;B[hm]BL[108]
;W[qr]WL[250]
;B[pr]BL[105]
;W[or]WL[247]
;B[ps]BL[100]
;W[pq]WL[232]
;B[oq]BL[93]
;W[os]WL[231]
;B[qq]BL[89]
;W[qs]WL[231]C[
kitsune 5k*: b dead. :(
]
;B[rs]BL[71]
;W[pq]WL[230]
;B[pr]BL[70]
;W[ci]WL[225]
;B[lr]BL[67]
;W[ls]WL[222]
;B[nr]BL[53]
;W[ns]WL[219]
;B[mq]BL[52]
;W[ps]WL[214]
;B[mp]BL[50]C[
saxifrage NR : yup
]
;W[nr]WL[180]
;B[rr]BL[48]
;W[pq]WL[178]
;B[ks]BL[297]
;W[js]WL[172]
;B[pr]BL[296]
;W[eb]WL[291]C[
kitsune 5k*: :)
]
;B[ms]BL[268]
;W[ec]WL[285]
;B[be]BL[267]
;W[ce]WL[279]
;B[bf]BL[254]
;W[bg]WL[271]
;B[cd]BL[253]
;W[bb]WL[268]
;B[cg]BL[247]
;W[dc]WL[253]
;B[dg]BL[203]
;W[ef]WL[220]C[
kitsune 5k*: c11 looks nice.
]
;B[bh]BL[161]C[
kitsune 5k*: no it doesn't work, i think.
]
;W[cb]WL[216]C[
saxifrage NR : too small
saxifrage NR : surround them all
]
;B[jn]BL[139]
;W[eg]WL[209]C[
saxifrage NR : sigh
]
;B[bi]BL[121]
;W[ik]WL[184]
;B[jg]BL[103]
;W[lh]WL[180]
;B[le]BL[94]
;W[nd]WL[163]
;B[pe]BL[92]
;W[mf]WL[153]
;B[me]BL[90]
;W[ne]WL[151]
;B[nf]BL[89]
;W[lf]WL[148]
;B[kf]BL[86]
;W[oe]WL[137]
;B[ng]BL[78]
;W[mh]WL[135]
;B[ji]BL[71]
;W[kj]WL[132]
;B[jj]BL[69]
;W[jk]WL[120]
;B[ki]BL[68]
;W[lj]WL[119]
;B[li]BL[67]
;W[mi]WL[117]
;B[mj]BL[66]
;W[oh]WL[110]
;B[mk]BL[62]
;W[kk]WL[104]
;B[pg]BL[61]
;W[of]WL[50]
;B[og]BL[299]
;W[qf]WL[29]
;B[rf]BL[296]
;W[qe]WL[299]
;B[re]BL[295]
;W[oj]WL[286]
;B[ok]BL[291]
;W[pk]WL[283]
;B[ol]BL[286]
;W[ie]WL[250]
;B[je]BL[262]
;W[if]WL[249]
;B[id]BL[260]
;W[hd]WL[243]
;B[ig]BL[259]
;W[hg]WL[240]
;B[hh]BL[257]
;W[hf]WL[229]
;B[go]BL[255]
;W[hn]WL[222]
;B[kq]BL[245]
;W[jr]WL[218]C[
kitsune 5k*: maybe b can win this?
]
;B[hp]BL[161]
;W[io]WL[212]
;B[jo]BL[146]
;W[gr]WL[208]
;B[iq]BL[137]
;W[jp]WL[206]
;B[is]BL[134]C[
kitsune 5k*: hihi.
tsukino 1k : Thx hehe
kitsune 5k*: wish i'd have beaten him, too. :)
];
)
ian
> Fu, Ren-Li wrote:
> > Michael Alford wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article <tU1oc.11648$QaS....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
> >>"Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Michael Alford wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>I don't get it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-frl
> >>>>
> >>>> That's been obvious for months.
> >>>
> >>>au contraire malf, if that IS your real name, it is you who do not get it.
> >>>
> >>>I am a 3 dan. I have tricks you aint never dreamed.
> >>>
> >>>-frl
> >>
> >>
> >> Your IGS account is 6k.
> >
> >
> > IGS kind of sucks. after aligned 1d escaped from me, and it became apparent
>
>
> YOU disconnected from this game. aligned 1d was shouting
> that tsukino escaped.
>
>
> > that I would /lose the game/ because of his escaping, I remembered why I
> > stopped playing on IGS in the first place. Anyways, if you like I can post
> > all those IGS games where I creamed 1k and 1d again, if you like.
> >
> > -frl
>
> In the following game, a 4k* creamed you in an even game.
> I can also post the game where a 3K creamed you too.
>
Is rgg really the place to argue over what is your exact rating. I can
see little point to any of these posts.
richard mullens
> I can also post the game where a 3K creamed you too.
>
None of this means much. I know a 4 Dan who plays on IGS at 28 kyu.
I would not go so far as to say that server grades are meaningless,
but they have to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
-
> tweet <tw...@pandanet.net> wrote:
>> In the following game, a 4k* creamed you in an even game.
>> I can also post the game where a 3K creamed you too.
mul...@ntlworld.com (richard mullens) wrote:
> None of this means much. I know a 4 Dan who plays on IGS at 28 kyu.
> I would not go so far as to say that server grades are meaningless,
> but they have to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
During those games "The `Fu, Ren-Li'" was not only not trying
to win, but he was also not trying not to not lose. For relaxation it is
possible that "The `Fu, Ren-Li'" occasionally plays as 28 kyu. When
"The `Fu, Ren-Li'" decides to get serious, "The IGS" will be waiting.
- regards
- jb
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I WAS TOLD TO STAND THERE AND HOLD THE LEASH...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/12/iraq/main616921.shtml
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Rumsfeld Backs Iraq Interrogation Methods
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040512/D82H709O2.html
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Fu, Ren-Li
>> IGS kind of sucks. after aligned 1d escaped from me, and it became
>> apparent
>
>
> YOU disconnected from this game. aligned 1d was shouting
> that tsukino escaped.
>
Would you like to ask aligned why he didnt' answer any of my messages or
emails?
Go ahead, go post all the messages I sent to aligned, tweet. I'm sure the
readers would like to know.
> In the following game, a 4k* creamed you in an even game.
> I can also post the game where a 3K creamed you too.
*then why is my rank "6k"*
this isn't consistent with my wins and losses.
-frl
-
> messages or emails?
Because (s)he was not not `demessaged' and not not `de-emailed.'
> ... *then why is my rank "6k"*
> this isn't consistent with my wins and losses.
You were not not `the deranked' from "The not not IGS."
- regards
- jb
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CHEAT: Student Busted Using Cell Phone To Take Picture Of Test...
http://www.wftv.com/education/3295729/detail.html
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tweet
In this case, Ofriedli 4k* is what his rank claims. He is
a 4k* at IGS and does not have another account rated higher
or lower. I cannot say the same for Fu.