Promoting Go in the USA
in...@applicationarch.com
I'm running for Eastern Region director for the American Go
Association.
I'm writing to drum up exciting ideas to promote go awareness in a BIG
way in the USA. You can read more about my current ideas here:
http://www.usgo.org/candidates/kubica.pdf
Please, no jokes. I'm looking for real ideas that a disparate team of
volunteers can actually pull off.
Thanks!
Chris Kubica
Frank de Groot
Looks very good!
Perhaps this is an idea:
Let some amateur film makers produce a movie about Go's mystery and charm,
highlighting the fact that it's for young and old, men and women, "fighters"
and Zen-oriented minds.
And yes, emphasize the fact that Chess has become boring, old, outdated,
superseded and that if you want to be hip and cool and intellectual, play
Go.
We Go software manufacturers need more people like you :)
Moyo Go Studio
http://moyogo.com/
Frank de Groot
> Let some amateur film makers produce a movie about Go's mystery and charm,
> highlighting the fact that it's for young and old, men and women,
> "fighters" and Zen-oriented minds.
I forgot to say that this movie - ideally produced at zero cost - will be
offered free of charge and without Copyright to anyone who wants to air it.
You could even upload it to Google Video and somehow attract attention to it
(Zeppelin with the (Tiny)URL? ;-)
in...@applicationarch.com
Good idea. I thought of something like this also, but maybe lower
budget. I thought that you could make a Flash-based tutorial about how
to play, how cool it is, etc etc and then put some provokative ads in
magazines (like Chess Life, The New Yorker, etc) with a simple tag line
like "Chess is OVER. Play go. www.whygo.org" or something.
CDMK
-
"in...@applicationarch.com" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> You can read more about my current ideas here:
> http://www.usgo.org/candidates/kubica.pdf
>
> Please, no jokes. I'm looking for real ideas that a disparate
> team of volunteers can actually pull off.
Why would jokes not help to promote Go? :-)
> My Goal: To Ensure That Go Becomes the Next Chess in America
>
> [ ... ]
>
> The writing is on the wall for chess. Sure, millions of Americans play
> chess and there are very few schools with go teams but, brick by brick
> and with a little magic and a little teamwork, go will come to the
> fore sooner than you think.
Chess isn't going away. Nor is it in the best interests of each
community to engage in game warfare. Each variety of game is
easy to play but difficult to win. One respects the players of any
cognitive-skill boardgame because we are all intent on broadcasting
higher rationality on behalf of the human community.
> Below you will find reasons to vote for me along with a bunch of ideas
> I've come up with to make go the most played game in the USA and to
> make the AGA one of the strongest go associations in the world.
The usual question to ask concerns how the popularity of a game
is going to help improve -your- gameplay. At any tournament players
are not thinking about numbers of other players in a country or world.
They are focused on the particular game they play and that tournament.
The AGA suffered from some misdirection recently in thinking that Go
had to become as popular as Chess. That goal was inverted: Go was
the original game, not Chess. Chess was developed for people who
found Go too intimidating. I've noticed that children are much more
receptive to learning Chess or Shogi than the steep learning for Go.
The strategy to recharacterize Go as a children's "capture game" --
"first capture" or "first to capture at least five stones" -- lends to an
abuse of Go's ulterior qualities. More strictly speaking, Go has a
"beyondedness" such as "taking the `fight' to a higher level" (which
might not seem like fighting anymore). An example of this is supplied
by orbital mechanics, or the study of the "many body problem." Three
equal masses can follow each other along a figure-8 shape in a stable
orbit. One wishes to know which orbits are stable and which are not.
You could say that Chess -is- "Go for dummies" but you might not be
able to do anything about whether somebody is just a "dummy." :-)
> Why You Should Vote For Me
>
> * I'm the only Certified Project Management Professional (PMP)
> running for office. This means that it is in my blood to see to it that
> projects the AGA takes on are initiated properly and get done.
> I am a person of action if nothing else.
That's good. The AGA has indicated for itself a goal of budgetary
transparency. It seems that people on the East Coast have a slightly
different notion of what that entails. Budget transparency means
that we understand what are the compensation schemes for each
individual who contributes in some way to the organization.
> * I'm an outsider with a fresh outlook. I'll admit it, I don't have
> that many connections in the go community yet. I simply don't know
> that many of you. But this is also an asset because I feel I'm able to
> bring a very fresh perspective to the Board from "outside the box."
I hope this works for you. The AGA has become a "good old boys
(and girls) club." It suffers from the inertia of past egomaniacs who
volunteered for nothing other than ego pumping. It is dominated by
talkers who wish to relive old memories and repeat past agendas.
> * (Almost) Everyone likes me. I am a very friendly, personable and
> humorous individual. I'm a connector. So what I lack in in-group
> contacts I make up for in my ability to make connections quickly,
> especially across potential cultural and geographical boundaries. It
> is my hope that I can use this talent to convince the Japanese, Korean
> and Chinese Go Associations to take us under their wings for a few
> years to show us how to build a world-class go association. We'll
> need their help, and I'm just the person to do it.
Some sensitivities here, and you will probably fail at this task.
Organization-building is an American skill in no way related to the
capability for Go. The quality of an association has little, if any, to
do with the quality of players in that association. Tournament software
is generic no matter how strong or weak the tournament players are.
> Preliminary List of Ideas I Will Implement as Your New Eastern Region
> Director
>
> * Build a world-class, Web-based, modern go tournament-running
> software.
Yes. We need to enable SMTP-submission format for tournament
reporting results, given an authorization code from the AGA, if this is
not already being done. I watched Sam Zimmerman doing updates
manually at the 2005 Go Congress. This was extremely burdensome.
> * Build the best go-playing server in the world.
Oops. :-)
> * Commission articles on playing go from top players who are good
> writers and continually and constantly submit them to top magazines
> like The New Yorker, Harper's, Parade, NYT Magazine, etc. If people
> read an article about how glamorous and mysterious go is in The NYT,
> for example, the AGA Web site would get quite a few hits, new members,
> interest and so on.
Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.
> * Find out if any famous people play go, and get them to do a promo of
> some kind.
Yes. I've hoped that Madonna could play Go, but so far it's Nikita.
> * Encourage all chapters to meet in PUBLIC places instead of where
> they may currently be meeting. While the church basement or community
> centers may be convenient/safe/convenient, you just are not going to
> get much "walk in" traffic there. Chapters should try to play, at
> least sometimes, in the most public places around, especially where
> the hipsters congregate, like coffee shops, B&N, the mall, etc.
My experience with malls is that people ask what the game is and
we tell them a bit but that's as far as it goes. There's no "growth" in
a club, even with public exposure. The people who play were already
players prior to finding it at the mall. They can understand that Go is
more complicated than Chess but this does not entice them to play.
> * Someone known in the go community in the USA should write up an
> outline for a Go For Dummies book. Cheesy, yes, but those books have
> WIDE circulation and make any topic covered in them more mainstream.
> If Wiley won't go for it, selfpublish a book like it.
Really. We could also have "Go For -Stupid- Dummies" and so forth.
> * In my opinion, in order for go to really, REALLY take off in the
> "West", you simply must convert chess players. While it might seem a
> little rude, you should, in my opinion, come up with a consistent and
> ongoing campaign of which the subliminal message is "chess isn't where
> it is at. Play go. Go is the next chess for serious minds. Computers
> can beat you at chess no matter how good you are. Computers cannot
> beat even amateur go players. Check it out." and the public message
> should be "hey, check out go. Go is fun. Go will challenge you in ways
> chess cannot." You'd start out by hooking up with chess exhibitions,
> clubs, putting on demos and "open play"s at chess clubs, etc. Get
> local game shops to stock a go board and put it by the chessboards,
> etc. We all know that eventually top chess players will tire of the
> idea that a computer in a wrist watch can beat them at their chosen
> game and go will eventually take over. Our job is to raise go's status
> sooner rather than later...hasten the death of chess (as we know it,
> anyway). Surely, go and chess can live in consort, and you shouldn't
> be "mean" to chess per se, but it is OK, in my opinion, to get be
> aggressive in getting the word out on go vs. chess.
Completely wrong. We have players strong at both Go and Chess.
They might prefer to play Chess for other subtle undocumented reasons.
> * Try to get a top couple of chess players to play go to win some cash
> or something. Publicize the heck out of the event.
Lasker already published that they played Go in the countryside
prior to a Chess Tournament. If this was not enough, what is? :-)
> * usgo.org is aesthetically pleasing, but it looks like something my
> "gran' pappy" built for his local shuffleboard tourneys. IOW, it seems
> kind of old fashioned and un-cool. Take a look at: http://www.bcf.org.uk/
Good point but that's history. Go is actually about mundane history.
> [ ... ]
>
> * There should be a concerted effort to turn all grade-school and
> college chess clubs teachers and captains into go players. I think
> getting the foot in the door is going through the chess coach, putting
> on demos, having chapters sponsor local go playouts and tourneys...
> the kid go players of now are paying members of the future.
A local community-college math prof tried this recently. It's
rather difficult with the shortage of capable players who can afford
to donate their time.
> [ ... ]
>
> * Have chapters list their meetings in the local paper "what to do
> this weekend" sections. Try to get reporters to come to a club meeting
> to write a story for the "Local" section of the paper.
Newspapers will publish anything to increase subscribership.
Now back to the drawing board: does a Go article increase sales?
> [ ... ]
>
> * Take out a provocative ad in Chess Life US Chess' monthly
> magazine. Advertise in Games magazine.
We could have Nikita do this. After all she was in a Playboy spread.
> * There should be a concerted effort to enlist several major sponsors
> for go tournaments that offer prizes in line with Japanse, Korean and
> Chinese tournament prizes.
Yes. Let's start with Haliburton. A few billion might suffice.
> [ ... ]
>
> If you've read this far, I'm very appreciative. Believe me, I know
> this letter comes off as perhaps a bit conceited, but that isn't my
> goal. Truly. And it certainly isn't my goal to slight or belittle
> anything the AGA or its Board of Directors has done to date, if
> that's how it sounds. All I'm saying is that I'm really, really eager
> to help, I've got a lot of good ideas and I'll get them all done-but
> only with your vote, of course.
Good luck. Many AGA players won't be able to vote for you.
- regards
- jb
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Frank de Groot
> Good idea. I thought of something like this also, but maybe lower
> budget.
Sorry, I wasn't clear (too late :).
My idea was zero-budget. I was hoping some people with camera's (like film
academy students or something) could self-produce something.
Of course this depends on the hopeful but perhaps unlikely fact that it
would be possible to find such Go-playing volunteers.
Perhaps a bit too optimistic..
ian
It strikes me as being a little negative towards Chess, that could well
be a little counterproductive. Some nice ideas though.
Rich
in...@applicationarch.com schreef:
Way too negative towards chess. I get the impression that this is seen
as an exercise in taking chess' "market share", or some such. It's not
a competitor; many people happily play both.
You don't get chess players interested by saying "your game's crap,
ours is better"; in fact, you damage what's otherwise a useful
relationship. Go demonstrations at chess events, maybe - appeal to
curiosity, don't ridicule someone's hobby and hope they'll get
dispirited with it.
The main problem, I think, is exposure. Look at the Hikaru effect - as
soon as people hear about the game, see something of its simplicity and
complexity, they get interested.
Cheers
Rich
Jerzy
news:44924bac....@news.isomedia.com...
>> My Goal: To Ensure That Go Becomes the Next Chess in America
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> The writing is on the wall for chess. Sure, millions of Americans play
>> chess and there are very few schools with go teams but, brick by brick
>> and with a little magic and a little teamwork, go will come to the
>> fore sooner than you think.
>
>
> Chess isn't going away. Nor is it in the best interests of each
> community to engage in game warfare. Each variety of game is
> easy to play but difficult to win. One respects the players of any
> cognitive-skill boardgame because we are all intent on broadcasting
> higher rationality on behalf of the human community.
That`s correct Jazzer, I saw advertisement of this idiot on chess newsgroups
and I think it`s another idiot who wants to prove that bridge/chess/other
intellectual game is boring/outdated/etc. and everybody should play go
instead ;-)
Regards,
Jerzy
Peter Clinch
> http://www.usgo.org/candidates/kubica.pdf
> The writing is on the wall for chess. Sure, millions of Americans play
> chess and there are very few schools with go teams but, brick by brick
> and with a little magic and a little teamwork, go will come to the
> fore sooner than you think.
As others have remarked, this is just plain /wrong/. For more evidence
of this, consider how Go hasn't been showing Shogi or Chinese Chess the
"writing on the wall" in Go's primary heartlands with hundreds of years
experience of both, so you're simply in denial if you think Chess is on
the way out, or will be any time soon.
On a more anecdotal level, at a recent Go tournament I bought... a Shogi
set. I didn't get sold that by someone telling me that Go was on the
way out, but by a Dan level Go player telling me it was a really
interesting game and a nice set with it (it doubles as a Go set, which
is why it was on the BGA sales stand).
I doubt Go will ever "come to the fore" over Western Chess in the West,
simply because of cultural weight of numbers. It's like expecting
Backgammon to disappear from Greek tavernas or Africans to stop playing
Mancala games because someone else has come up with something "better".
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Frank de Groot
> It strikes me as being a little negative towards Chess, that could well
> be a little counterproductive.
No. Done properly, it will greatly boost interest in Go.
If you say: "Look at this funny game from Asia" people will look at the
"peppermint" stones and think it's some kind of tic-tac-toe on a larger
grid.
When you say it's harder than Chess but easier to learn the rules, that it's
the next frontier in artificial intelligence and that the Pentagon funds
research in the game, that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
failed and it still bugs him, that kind of stuff raises interest with your
target group. Political correctness has its limits. Go /is/ harder than
Chess, period. We can prove it. We are interested in advancing Go, not in
pampering Chess players.
Frank de Groot
> The main problem, I think, is exposure. Look at the Hikaru effect - as
> soon as people hear about the game, see something of its simplicity and
> complexity, they get interested.
I got interested in Go only because it was said to be harder than Chess. Not
every potential Go player is turned on by a children's cartoon.
BramGo
material.
My uncle has a chessboard at home, and every time I visit him my young
cousin starts annoying me to play chess. Then she brings me the board
and pieces. 2 minutes later I discover she does not know how the pieces
move. The question is, WHY did she ask me to play chess in the first
place, while she did not even know how the game is played? The thing is
that children get attracted by the material. The pieces look
mysterious, children are curious by nature.
Have you ever seen the movie "The gods must be crazy?" about that
coca-cola bottle that fell from the sky. They are all puzzled what the
bottle should be used for. And they try to give it an application just
by curiousity.
If every elementary school (children from 4 - 12 years) would have some
board and stones laying in the back that would have the same effect.
Children would look at them and be puzzled how to use them. Sooner or
later they would ask the teacher "What is this for? I it a game? ..."
Then if the teacher would just let them play it now and then during the
lessons or breaks, that would really make a big step forward for the go
community.
What I am trying to say is that children don't need encouragement. They
just need the material. Intelligent children are very curious by
nature. When they see material, they want to give it an application.
Just because it's cool to use "grown-up"-material. It makes them feel
important, intelligent ... .
Well I read your pdf file. And it seems you have a lot of good ideas!!
I guess you would be a good director. However, I have a question: "our
own go server"? I don't think it is really worth the time, money and
effort. And as far as I know a server called "CyberOro" (aka
"Orobaduk") is already sponsored by the AGA. But besides that there are
already so many servers (Igs, Kgs, LittleGollem, DragonGoServer, DashN,
CyberOro, NNGS,...). Why yet another server?
Peter Clinch
> When you say it's harder than Chess but easier to learn the rules, that it's
> the next frontier in artificial intelligence and that the Pentagon funds
> research in the game, that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
> failed and it still bugs him, that kind of stuff raises interest with your
> target group. Political correctness has its limits. Go /is/ harder than
> Chess, period. We can prove it. We are interested in advancing Go, not in
> pampering Chess players.
But since any Chess player bar one or two in the world know there is far
more depth to their favourite game than they will ever be able to
explore, so what? Bill Gates is not alone, not many people will get
anywhere close to the highest levels, just as is the case with Chess.
It's like telling a transatlantic solo yachtsman that their hobby has no
challenges because the Pacific is bigger...
Peter Clinch
> I got interested in Go only because it was said to be harder than Chess. Not
> every potential Go player is turned on by a children's cartoon.
But probably a lot more than are turned on by it being probably deeper
than a game that already has more depth than they could reasonably hope
to explore.
Rich
> "Rich" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > The main problem, I think, is exposure. Look at the Hikaru effect - as
> > soon as people hear about the game, see something of its simplicity and
> > complexity, they get interested.
>
> I got interested in Go only because it was said to be harder than Chess.
I didn't think you played Go?
I would certainly agree, one of the very best ways to attract
programmers to the challenge of writing great go software would be to
point out that chess has already been more or less cracked by brute
force and that computer Go is still at a moderately weak amateur level.
However, attracting chess players to a go club, I would hold, requires
somewhat less confrontational tactics.
> Not every potential Go player is turned on by a children's cartoon.
I didn't say it was; only that the most successful advert in recent
years happened to be such.
Regards
Rich
Frank de Groot
> It's like telling a transatlantic solo yachtsman that their hobby has no
> challenges because the Pacific is bigger...
Many people get bored with Chess after a few decades or are up for a new
challenge.
The problem with Go is that it's so exotic, how to explain in a sentence or
two what it is?
I run into that problem all the time myself. What works best is saying it's
an oriental board game harder than Chess.
That gets their attention. It makes people think. Most people think Chess is
the hardest game. It widens their horizon, it tickles their curiosity.
Sometimes thay even want to argue, which is great because then you can
explain them all the details :)
Frank de Groot
>
> But probably a lot more than are turned on by it being probably deeper
> than a game that already has more depth than they could reasonably hope to
> explore.
I think that's an oversimplification.
Blondes for example have more depth than I ever reasonably could hope to
explore, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be quite interested in
redheads too.
Frank de Groot
>
> I didn't think you played Go?
You thought wrong.
I said I don't play Go. As in present tense.
And if it weren't for me /programming/ Go, I would perhaps /play/ it.
> I would certainly agree, one of the very best ways to attract
> programmers to the challenge of writing great go software would be to
> point out that chess has already been more or less cracked by brute
> force and that computer Go is still at a moderately weak amateur level.
Yes. That got my attention too. And the Ing prize.
I remember being surprized and incredulous that there was a game harder than
Chess (at least for computers). I joined a Go club, bought a Go set and I
found a friend willing to play it with me. But the whole thing got rolling
by the fact that it was claimed to be a complex game full of strategy and
tactics. It would be unwise to let go of the opportunity that a comparison
with Chess presents.
Remember, we're talking about people and Chess players who would otherwise
probably not get interested in the game anyway.
So when you say it's harder than Chess and more interesting, you get 1% of
Chess players saying: "Harder? I believe it when I tried it myself", 1%
saying: "More interesting? I believe it when I tried it myself" etc. Just
presenting them with some peppermints on a grid, saying how cool it is and
playing a kiddie cartoon for them isn't going to cut it I'm afraid. Most
people, especially Chess players, like to be competitive. Confront them with
the fact that a cheap PC outplays them but that if they spend a year at Go,
they'll outplay the best Go programs. I bet you get another 1% like that.
That's 3%, motivated by very basic human characteristics. Main motivators
are fear and greed, secondary ones are competitive behavior, avoidance of
shame, cultivation of the ego etc. You have to play on those. You want to
stirr up as many feelings as possible instead of avoiding to step on toes.
It's much better that 10% gets offended and 10% takes up Go, than when 1%
takes up Go and the rest thinks it's lame due to PC PR.
> However, attracting chess players to a go club, I would hold, requires
> somewhat less confrontational tactics.
If I were in charge I would make the PR campaign as confrontational as
possible. I want to bet it works better than anything else, because Chess
players are as elitists as Go players. Go players have the benefit that the
game is unknown with most Chess players. By playing on their pride and
various other emotions, you can lure them to the goban. The best would be to
piss them off so that the lot of them come to have a stern word with you at
the Go clubhouse :-)
> I didn't say it was; only that the most successful advert in recent
> years happened to be such.
Yes. That's very good. Go has enormous potential. Best would be media
exposure. Whatever it takes. Underwater Go, free fall Go, whatever. Put an
ad in a Chess magazine that raises their temperature. It's like Apple
putting ads for the mac in some WIndows publications who were willing to
accept them. Apple taunted Windows users and it worked.
Frank de Groot
> I think that's an oversimplification.
Hm, I think I have misread your sentence, sorry.
Frank de Groot
> I'm writing to drum up exciting ideas to promote go awareness in a BIG
> way in the USA. You can read more about my current ideas here:
Consider submitting a well-written article to mainstream media. You could
highlight the fact how China is becoming a global superpower, and how their
way of thinking is different and how Go relates to that. Relate Go to the
Korean and Japanese economical marvels. Then add in some pictures of pretty
female Go players. There you have it: Sex, money, power and a free article
about an "intellectual" game. It's free copy for them. Submit to dozens of
magazines and newspapers and the first one that bites gets the scoop.
Frank de Groot
>
> I'm writing to drum up exciting ideas to promote go awareness in a BIG
> way in the USA. You can read more about my current ideas here:
Write an article targeted to women's magazines. Talk about how Chess may be
less attractive to female players because it's more "fighting" oriented,
Chess is about armies butchering eachother until there is not much left and
then the King is captured. Go is more subtle. Doesn't have to be more than
half a page but when well-written and published in the Cosmo, you might see
a lot of interest. Go players are good father too, all that crap. Faithful,
soft-spoken, disciplined, respectful, intelligent people with jobs in the IT
business, that kind of thing. How to meet the ideal man: Join a Go club! You
bet that a well-written article with be published. Those magazines are
always on the lookout for free material, as long as it's exclusively for
them, well-written and applicable to their target market.
Highlight the fact that there is this scandal of this Chinese female pro who
is banned from Japanese tournaments because it's suspected she is in fact
the world's strongest player and the men are afraid. What was her name? Did
I get the details right?
-
> <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote
>> I'm writing to drum up exciting ideas to promote go awareness in a BIG
>> way in the USA. You can read more about my current ideas here:
"Frank de Groot" <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
> ... Then add in some pictures of pretty female Go players.
> There you have it: Sex ...
Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
And it's unfortunate that "sex" should come up during a discussion
about Go, which is gender neutral and non-threatening to sex privacy.
I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
- regards
- jb
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Lesbian Abuse Alleged at School
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9280
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Frank de Groot
news:4492de68...@news.isomedia.com...
>
> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
I am sure I'll piss you off by killfiling you.
I think I will do that if you keep intentionally twisting my words and
intentionally mis-interpreting them.
Not just my words, everybody's words.
> And it's unfortunate that "sex" should come up during a discussion
> about Go, which is gender neutral and non-threatening to sex privacy.
WTF is "non-threatening to sex privacy" and WTF does it have to do with my
post?
Never mind. If you want me to read your posts (= not killfile you), please
shape up & get your act together.
Note that I won't killfile to "censor" you or anything, it's just to make
the view pane less cluttered.
> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to
> transcend.
You haven't got a clue about women, do you?
(this was a rhetorical question but I'm sure you'll ignore that)
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
or even just one person by themselves.
> And it's unfortunate that "sex" should come up during a discussion
> about Go, which is gender neutral and non-threatening to sex privacy.
> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
I didn't know rationality had wishes.
-
> "-" <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
"Frank de Groot" <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
> I am sure I'll piss you off by killfiling you.
I'm not pissed off by killfilers. I accept the resignations gracefully.
> I think I will do that if you keep intentionally twisting my words and
> intentionally mis-interpreting them. Not just my words, everybody's words.
The intentions you hypothesize are non-existent. I'm a simple animal.
>> And it's unfortunate that "sex" should come up during a discussion
>> about Go, which is gender neutral and non-threatening to sex privacy.
> WTF is "non-threatening to sex privacy" and WTF does it have to do with
> my post? Never mind. If you want me to read your posts (= not killfile you),
> please shape up & get your act together.
You associated "some pictures of pretty female Go players" with "sex."
A good number of feminists might consider that threatening to privacy.
> Note that I won't killfile to "censor" you or anything, it's just to make
> the view pane less cluttered.
I'm not concerned about killfilers that I don't need to bother with
anymore. The ng problem concerns killfilers who continue to spew
ignorant nonsense because they hadn't read the infomative materials.
>> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
>> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
> You haven't got a clue about women, do you?
> (this was a rhetorical question but I'm sure you'll ignore that)
Ignoring rhetorical questions is like continuing after stating
"It goes without saying that ..." (If it should "go without saying"
then why does somebody say it?) On a logical level "if p then q"
does not imply "if not-p then not-q." As for clues about women
I subscribe to a policy that cluelessness is preferable and that
the condition of professing knowledge is instead the problem.
She can voice her perspectives without having a man interfere.
- regards
- jb
----------------------------------------------------------
Dutch Waking Up
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9281
----------------------------------------------------------
Oslo Growing on Immigrants
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9261
----------------------------------------------------------
-
> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
> Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
> or even just one person by themselves.
I don't accept those semantics. As with binary code the requisite
consists of both "1s" and "0s" -- not only either or a limit on length.
>> And it's unfortunate that "sex" should come up during a discussion
>> about Go, which is gender neutral and non-threatening to sex privacy.
>> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
>> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
> I didn't know rationality had wishes.
As with I/E the key concept was "intellect" -over- "emotion."
Rationality is a tool, not a religion.
- regards
- jb
----------------------------------------------------------------
Government Increasingly Turning to Data Mining
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9265
----------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Kubica
de Groot" <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
>
> You could even upload it to Google Video and somehow attract attention to it
> (Zeppelin with the (Tiny)URL? ;-)
I think an ad in the Nyer or Chess Life would be more attention-getting.
CDMK
Christopher Kubica
n6OdnZ0pR9d7QA_Z...@giganews.com, "Frank de Groot"
<fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
Good idea...
Christopher Kubica
http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/Compare.html
Chris Kubica
Christopher Kubica
On 6/16/06 3:00 AM, in article 44924bac....@news.isomedia.com, "-"
<jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "in...@applicationarch.com" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
>> You can read more about my current ideas here:
>> http://www.usgo.org/candidates/kubica.pdf
>>
>> Please, no jokes. I'm looking for real ideas that a disparate
>> team of volunteers can actually pull off.
>
>
> Why would jokes not help to promote Go? :-)
I just meant I wanted serious ideas and not humor/fake ideas.
>
>
>
>> My Goal: To Ensure That Go Becomes the Next Chess in America
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> The writing is on the wall for chess. Sure, millions of Americans play
>> chess and there are very few schools with go teams but, brick by brick
>> and with a little magic and a little teamwork, go will come to the
>> fore sooner than you think.
>
>
> Chess isn't going away. Nor is it in the best interests of each
> community to engage in game warfare. Each variety of game is
> easy to play but difficult to win. One respects the players of any
> cognitive-skill boardgame because we are all intent on broadcasting
> higher rationality on behalf of the human community.
Chess is now impossible to win.
In any case, my idea is to massively raise awareness of go. Where else to go
than chess players? And what a better message, if it can be done right, than
to say "listen, you can't beat computers at that game anymore. Here's
something elegant, cool and fun to play. Try it out!"
>
>
>
>> Below you will find reasons to vote for me along with a bunch of ideas
>> I've come up with to make go the most played game in the USA and to
>> make the AGA one of the strongest go associations in the world.
>
>
> The usual question to ask concerns how the popularity of a game
> is going to help improve -your- gameplay. At any tournament players
> are not thinking about numbers of other players in a country or world.
> They are focused on the particular game they play and that tournament.
> The AGA suffered from some misdirection recently in thinking that Go
> had to become as popular as Chess. That goal was inverted: Go was
> the original game, not Chess. Chess was developed for people who
> found Go too intimidating. I've noticed that children are much more
> receptive to learning Chess or Shogi than the steep learning for Go.
> The strategy to recharacterize Go as a children's "capture game" --
> "first capture" or "first to capture at least five stones" -- lends to an
> abuse of Go's ulterior qualities. More strictly speaking, Go has a
> "beyondedness" such as "taking the `fight' to a higher level" (which
> might not seem like fighting anymore). An example of this is supplied
> by orbital mechanics, or the study of the "many body problem." Three
> equal masses can follow each other along a figure-8 shape in a stable
> orbit. One wishes to know which orbits are stable and which are not.
> You could say that Chess -is- "Go for dummies" but you might not be
> able to do anything about whether somebody is just a "dummy." :-)
I don't think go is any harder to teach kids. It is just very different than
chess.
>
>
>
>> Why You Should Vote For Me
>>
>> * I'm the only Certified Project Management Professional (PMP)
>> running for office. This means that it is in my blood to see to it that
>> projects the AGA takes on are initiated properly and get done.
>> I am a person of action if nothing else.
>
>
> That's good. The AGA has indicated for itself a goal of budgetary
> transparency. It seems that people on the East Coast have a slightly
> different notion of what that entails. Budget transparency means
> that we understand what are the compensation schemes for each
> individual who contributes in some way to the organization.
I would call for total transparency. As in putting the ledger on the Web
site. Why not? What is there to hide? Plus, this will encourage more
contributors if they see where the money is spent.
>
>
>
>> * I'm an outsider with a fresh outlook. I'll admit it, I don't have
>> that many connections in the go community yet. I simply don't know
>> that many of you. But this is also an asset because I feel I'm able to
>> bring a very fresh perspective to the Board from "outside the box."
>
>
> I hope this works for you. The AGA has become a "good old boys
> (and girls) club." It suffers from the inertia of past egomaniacs who
> volunteered for nothing other than ego pumping. It is dominated by
> talkers who wish to relive old memories and repeat past agendas.
Yeah, that's going to change.
>
>
>
>> * (Almost) Everyone likes me. I am a very friendly, personable and
>> humorous individual. I'm a connector. So what I lack in in-group
>> contacts I make up for in my ability to make connections quickly,
>> especially across potential cultural and geographical boundaries. It
>> is my hope that I can use this talent to convince the Japanese, Korean
>> and Chinese Go Associations to take us under their wings for a few
>> years to show us how to build a world-class go association. We'll
>> need their help, and I'm just the person to do it.
>
>
> Some sensitivities here, and you will probably fail at this task.
> Organization-building is an American skill in no way related to the
> capability for Go. The quality of an association has little, if any, to
> do with the quality of players in that association. Tournament software
> is generic no matter how strong or weak the tournament players are.
Fail in which task? And why so pessimistic? Jeez. And what the AGA is an
organization builder. They've got enough players. And the tournament
software could make the AGA a GLOBAL leader in go (at least in one part of
it) if it was good.
>
>
>
>> Preliminary List of Ideas I Will Implement as Your New Eastern Region
>> Director
>>
>> * Build a world-class, Web-based, modern go tournament-running
>> software.
>
>
> Yes. We need to enable SMTP-submission format for tournament
> reporting results, given an authorization code from the AGA, if this is
> not already being done. I watched Sam Zimmerman doing updates
> manually at the 2005 Go Congress. This was extremely burdensome.
Very 1940s you mean.
>
>
>
>> * Build the best go-playing server in the world.
>
>
> Oops. :-)
:)
>
>
>
>> * Commission articles on playing go from top players who are good
>> writers and continually and constantly submit them to top magazines
>> like The New Yorker, Harper's, Parade, NYT Magazine, etc. If people
>> read an article about how glamorous and mysterious go is in The NYT,
>> for example, the AGA Web site would get quite a few hits, new members,
>> interest and so on.
>
>
> Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.
And your evidence is...?
>
>
>
>> * Find out if any famous people play go, and get them to do a promo of
>> some kind.
>
>
> Yes. I've hoped that Madonna could play Go, but so far it's Nikita.
My idea here is good. If Ethan Hawke put go in his movies or something,
people would play go.
>
>
>
>> * Encourage all chapters to meet in PUBLIC places instead of where
>> they may currently be meeting. While the church basement or community
>> centers may be convenient/safe/convenient, you just are not going to
>> get much "walk in" traffic there. Chapters should try to play, at
>> least sometimes, in the most public places around, especially where
>> the hipsters congregate, like coffee shops, B&N, the mall, etc.
>
>
> My experience with malls is that people ask what the game is and
> we tell them a bit but that's as far as it goes. There's no "growth" in
> a club, even with public exposure. The people who play were already
> players prior to finding it at the mall. They can understand that Go is
> more complicated than Chess but this does not entice them to play.
Probably a mall isn't the right venue. But a special talk or a library or
whatever might be good. Or a TV show.
>
>
>
>> * Someone known in the go community in the USA should write up an
>> outline for a Go For Dummies book. Cheesy, yes, but those books have
>> WIDE circulation and make any topic covered in them more mainstream.
>> If Wiley won't go for it, selfpublish a book like it.
>
>
> Really. We could also have "Go For -Stupid- Dummies" and so forth.
Actually, this is sort of moot until there is actually a mass market for go
books.
>
>
>
>> * In my opinion, in order for go to really, REALLY take off in the
>> "West", you simply must convert chess players. While it might seem a
>> little rude, you should, in my opinion, come up with a consistent and
>> ongoing campaign of which the subliminal message is "chess isn't where
>> it is at. Play go. Go is the next chess for serious minds. Computers
>> can beat you at chess no matter how good you are. Computers cannot
>> beat even amateur go players. Check it out." and the public message
>> should be "hey, check out go. Go is fun. Go will challenge you in ways
>> chess cannot." You'd start out by hooking up with chess exhibitions,
>> clubs, putting on demos and "open play"s at chess clubs, etc. Get
>> local game shops to stock a go board and put it by the chessboards,
>> etc. We all know that eventually top chess players will tire of the
>> idea that a computer in a wrist watch can beat them at their chosen
>> game and go will eventually take over. Our job is to raise go's status
>> sooner rather than later...hasten the death of chess (as we know it,
>> anyway). Surely, go and chess can live in consort, and you shouldn't
>> be "mean" to chess per se, but it is OK, in my opinion, to get be
>> aggressive in getting the word out on go vs. chess.
>
>
> Completely wrong. We have players strong at both Go and Chess.
> They might prefer to play Chess for other subtle undocumented reasons.
I think if Kasparov started playing go publicly, more people would play go
even if they also still played chess...at least until such time as people
started feeling sort of tic-tac-toe-ish about chess.
>
>
>
>> * Try to get a top couple of chess players to play go to win some cash
>> or something. Publicize the heck out of the event.
>
>
> Lasker already published that they played Go in the countryside
> prior to a Chess Tournament. If this was not enough, what is? :-)
Is hoping for National Go Month tooo pie in the sky?
CDMK
>
>
>
>> * usgo.org is aesthetically pleasing, but it looks like something my
>> "gran' pappy" built for his local shuffleboard tourneys. IOW, it seems
>> kind of old fashioned and un-cool. Take a look at: http://www.bcf.org.uk/
>
>
> Good point but that's history. Go is actually about mundane history.
>
>
>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> * There should be a concerted effort to turn all grade-school and
>> college chess clubs teachers and captains into go players. I think
>> getting the foot in the door is going through the chess coach, putting
>> on demos, having chapters sponsor local go playouts and tourneys...
>> the kid go players of now are paying members of the future.
>
>
> A local community-college math prof tried this recently. It's
> rather difficult with the shortage of capable players who can afford
> to donate their time.
>
>
>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> * Have chapters list their meetings in the local paper "what to do
>> this weekend" sections. Try to get reporters to come to a club meeting
>> to write a story for the "Local" section of the paper.
>
>
> Newspapers will publish anything to increase subscribership.
> Now back to the drawing board: does a Go article increase sales?
>
>
>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> * Take out a provocative ad in Chess Life US Chess' monthly
>> magazine. Advertise in Games magazine.
>
>
> We could have Nikita do this. After all she was in a Playboy spread.
>
>
>
>> * There should be a concerted effort to enlist several major sponsors
>> for go tournaments that offer prizes in line with Japanse, Korean and
>> Chinese tournament prizes.
>
>
> Yes. Let's start with Haliburton. A few billion might suffice.
>
>
>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> If you've read this far, I'm very appreciative. Believe me, I know
>> this letter comes off as perhaps a bit conceited, but that isn't my
>> goal. Truly. And it certainly isn't my goal to slight or belittle
>> anything the AGA or its Board of Directors has done to date, if
>> that's how it sounds. All I'm saying is that I'm really, really eager
>> to help, I've got a lot of good ideas and I'll get them all done-but
>> only with your vote, of course.
>
>
> Good luck. Many AGA players won't be able to vote for you.
>
>
>
>
> - regards
> - jb
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Free Donkey
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/zip/171766505.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Free Pitbull
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/zip/172089130.html
> Free Pitbull
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/zip/172044563.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
Sincerely,
Chris Kubica
President, Founder
Application Architects, LLC
Research Triangle Headquarters
(P) 919-259-8023
(F) 425-671-5648
Certified FileMaker Developer
FDA, Part 11, GxP, HIPAA and SOX Compliance Experts
Christopher Kubica
1150454628.2...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "ian"
<siva...@gmail.com> wrote:
OK, maybe. But maybe it could be more cooperative. Like a US Chess and Go
Association.
Christopher Kubica
1150457001.6...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think the AGA needs to take some risks that make them uncomfortable, like
daring chess players to leave the safety of chess for something more
challenging, even if they end up playing both. More people playing both is
better'n everyone playing JUST chess.
Christopher Kubica
<jci...@poczta.fm> wrote:
I'm not an Idoitoit!
Christopher Kubica
Clinch" <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
> in...@applicationarch.com wrote:
>
>> http://www.usgo.org/candidates/kubica.pdf
>
>> The writing is on the wall for chess. Sure, millions of Americans play
>> chess and there are very few schools with go teams but, brick by brick
>> and with a little magic and a little teamwork, go will come to the
>> fore sooner than you think.
>
> As others have remarked, this is just plain /wrong/. For more evidence
> of this, consider how Go hasn't been showing Shogi or Chinese Chess the
> "writing on the wall" in Go's primary heartlands with hundreds of years
> experience of both, so you're simply in denial if you think Chess is on
> the way out, or will be any time soon.
>
> On a more anecdotal level, at a recent Go tournament I bought... a Shogi
> set. I didn't get sold that by someone telling me that Go was on the
> way out, but by a Dan level Go player telling me it was a really
> interesting game and a nice set with it (it doubles as a Go set, which
> is why it was on the BGA sales stand).
>
> I doubt Go will ever "come to the fore" over Western Chess in the West,
> simply because of cultural weight of numbers. It's like expecting
> Backgammon to disappear from Greek tavernas or Africans to stop playing
> Mancala games because someone else has come up with something "better".
>
> Pete.
What you are leaving out of your argument is any discussion of how China
will be by far the largest and most influential superpower in maybe 50 or so
years.
Christopher Kubica
eZ6dnekYiOuYIA_Z...@giganews.com, "Frank de Groot"
<fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
Has everyone seen:
http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/Compare.html
It is a good fair comparison, I think from a guy I know loves both games.
Christopher Kubica
eZ6dnekYiOuYIA_Z...@giganews.com, "Frank de Groot"
<fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
> that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
> failed and it still bugs him,
Where did you read this??
Christopher Kubica
1150470164.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "BramGo"
<bvand...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I read your pdf file. And it seems you have a lot of good ideas!!
> I guess you would be a good director. However, I have a question: "our
> own go server"? I don't think it is really worth the time, money and
> effort. And as far as I know a server called "CyberOro" (aka
> "Orobaduk") is already sponsored by the AGA. But besides that there are
> already so many servers (Igs, Kgs, LittleGollem, DragonGoServer, DashN,
> CyberOro, NNGS,...). Why yet another server?
Good question. For me, personally, there are two reasons. Or three.
1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower. Thus, we
should have a great server, sponsor our own players and tourneys on it, etc.
2. The other servers always invite US to their servers, it would be nice to
return the favor
3. There is a lot of cross promotion opportunities when you get all kinds of
people together in a go online community
4. It allows for play with servers faster/closer to home.
5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would be
commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
OK five.
Christopher Kubica
1150471884.7...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> However, attracting chess players to a go club, I would hold, requires
> somewhat less confrontational tactics.
I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they will come
around. Brick by brick.
Christopher Kubica
SOidnbB3HfYKSw_Z...@giganews.com, "Frank de Groot"
<fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
> The problem with Go is that it's so exotic, how to explain in a sentence or
> two what it is?
> I run into that problem all the time myself. What works best is saying it's
> an oriental board game harder than Chess.
> That gets their attention. It makes people think. Most people think Chess is
> the hardest game. It widens their horizon, it tickles their curiosity.
>
> Sometimes thay even want to argue, which is great because then you can
> explain them all the details :)
If there was a catchier version of :
Out there, that would go a long way to show the game off.
Frank de Groot
news:C0B8825F.2F2A6%in...@applicationarch.com...
>> that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
>> failed and it still bugs him,
>
> Where did you read this??
Two days ago, in an interview with him. They asked him about his
accomplishments in life and his thoughts about them.
Orne Batmagoo
Christopher Kubica wrote:
> <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
>
>> that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
>> failed and it still bugs him,
>
> Where did you read this??
According to the abstract of an article by Aratani Kazunari
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2709/is_200212/ai_n7282455
(for which I was not inclined to shell out $4.95):
"BILL Gates plays go. The Microsoft chairman learned the game
from a Korean classmate at high school in Seattle and has been
an avid player ever since."
I believe that, I suppose. That he's an avid player. (Although
anyone can put anything on the web.)
As for the rest of it...
That he "failed" must be true too, in some measurable sense:
Had he "succeeded", we probably would have heard about it.
As for "it still bugs him", that smacks of armchair psychology,
though it could well be true, too. [Did W invade Iraq because
"it bugged him" that Daddy "failed"? Maybe so; but how does one
test such an assertion?]
--
Orne Batmagoo
a.k.a. "Rich Brown"
Rich
Christopher Kubica wrote:
> I think the AGA needs to take some risks that make them uncomfortable,
This phrase is in my experience very often connected to the situation
"I don't know what to do, but we have to do something!"
I'm not in the US, so don't know the situation there but... why make a
target of chess? What if for every chess player you pique, you make ten
who'd otherwise take a look think "what a jerk, if that's the sort of
person at the go club I'll stick here"? Or discourage non-players who'd
otherwise be attracted by the more tranquil side of the game?
There are situations where any publicity is good publicity; I don't
believe this is one. Personally, having seen the 'challenging' posts on
the chess newsgroups, I wouldn't be rushing to your club :P But I'm not
eligible to vote; best of luck to you for trying.
> like daring chess players to leave the safety of chess for something more
> challenging, even if they end up playing both.
"Daring"? As in, taking up a hobby just to prove to a stranger that you
can?
> More people playing both is better'n everyone playing JUST chess.
True, I agree absolutely. But it's not the case that everybody plays
just chess, or necessarily that by attacking chess you'll achieve more
people playing both.
Regards
Rich
Frank de Groot
> As for "it still bugs him", that smacks of armchair psychology,
He said it still bugged him. Perhaps he used different terminology but he
said he had hoped to become a strong Go player and he didn't succeed and the
question was about his successes and failures in life. He also said in the
same breath that one of his failures was not keeping IBM as friends.
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
>
> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>> Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
>> or even just one person by themselves.
>
> I don't accept those semantics. As with binary code the requisite
> consists of both "1s" and "0s" -- not only either or a limit on length.
I have no idea *what* you are talking about.
Louise Bremner
> In article <C0B8825F.2F2A6%in...@applicationarch.com> of r.g.g,
> Christopher Kubica wrote:
>
> > <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
> >> failed and it still bugs him,
> >
> > Where did you read this??
>
> According to the abstract of an article by Aratani Kazunari
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2709/is_200212/ai_n7282455
> (for which I was not inclined to shell out $4.95):
>
> "BILL Gates plays go. The Microsoft chairman learned the game
> from a Korean classmate at high school in Seattle and has been
> an avid player ever since."
>
> I believe that, I suppose. That he's an avid player. (Although
> anyone can put anything on the web.)
>
> As for the rest of it...
>
> That he "failed" must be true too, in some measurable sense:
> Had he "succeeded", we probably would have heard about it.
At the back of each Nihon Kiin yearbook, there's a list of all the dan
diplomas that the Kiin has issued that year. At the top of the list for
2002 is "honorary 5-dan", with "William Henry Gates" under "Overseas".
Mind you, an honorary dan diploma from the Kiin doesn't mean much--even
the Japanese astronaut who "played" go in orbit was given a shodan
diploma.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
-
> "-" <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Chess isn't going away. Nor is it in the best interests of each
>> community to engage in game warfare. Each variety of game is
>> easy to play but difficult to win. One respects the players of any
>> cognitive-skill boardgame because we are all intent on broadcasting
>> higher rationality on behalf of the human community.
Christopher Kubica <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> Chess is now impossible to win.
Let's qualify that statement, please. Not all tournaments allow
computers and not all computers play Chess. At the ChessBase
website, for example, which you are recommending for style see
( http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3153 ) that
Deep Junior, with a rating less than 2nd, 3rd & 4th place finishers,
manages to take 1st place anyway. Where is a correlation between
ratings and tournament placement? Kasparov is holding out against
the computers, as Marion Tinsley was able to do against Chinook.
> In any case, my idea is to massively raise awareness of go. Where else
> to go than chess players? And what a better message, if it can be done
> right, than to say "listen, you can't beat computers at that game anymore.
> Here's something elegant, cool and fun to play. Try it out!"
Mining the Chess World for players isn't really promoting the game.
It's just recruitment from introverted people who were already inclined
toward some form of rational enterprise via intellectual sports. A game
itself is ancillary: pieces, tokens, mat etc., are merely that surrogate
representation of an actual game taking place in the minds of players.
A theme following _The_Cross_and_the_Switchblade_, or the math
movie _Stand_and_Deliver_, or Albert Schweitzer's African Clinic,
expresses how somebody finds a difficult situation, confronting forces
of irrationality, but then tames them toward the cause of refinement.
Our civilization game is played between rationality and irrationality.
Any of the cognitive skill games are suitable for promotion of virtue.
Perhaps the AGA should instead be "American Games Association"
to better appreciate Shogi, Xiangqi, and other viable promulgations.
Most Asian Go Clubs also offer forms of Chess to their members.
>> The AGA suffered from some misdirection recently in thinking that Go
>> had to become as popular as Chess. That goal was inverted: Go was
>> the original game, not Chess. Chess was developed for people who
>> found Go too intimidating. I've noticed that children are much more
>> receptive to learning Chess or Shogi than the steep learning for Go.
>> The strategy to recharacterize Go as a children's "capture game" --
>> "first capture" or "first to capture at least five stones" -- lends to an
>> abuse of Go's ulterior qualities. More strictly speaking, Go has a
>> "beyondedness" such as "taking the `fight' to a higher level" (which
>> might not seem like fighting anymore).
> I don't think go is any harder to teach kids. It is just very different than chess.
Fortunately our inquiry is not about what you think but about what
the facts appear to indicate. As with most any game Go is certainly
easy to play. If you have worked with young children you may notice
their expressions of elation and disappointment. Once trying to make
progress beyond the "easy to play" stage there is a steep learning
curve. Most adults are still attempting to climb that learning curve.
Children sense this right away. Many children who do manage to
stay with Go have also a supportive atmosphere at home where they
receive exposure to forms of Chess. Hex is also a useful procedure.
Among many difficulties the AGA encounters are its stuck-in-the-mud
players who do not comprehend a general "sports" quality. We have
soccer activities for children at the 2005 Go Congress. Capablanca
was also capable at tennis. Strong players are in love with life itself.
>> I hope this works for you. The AGA has become a "good old boys
>> (and girls) club." It suffers from the inertia of past egomaniacs who
>> volunteered for nothing other than ego pumping. It is dominated by
>> talkers who wish to relive old memories and repeat past agendas.
> Yeah, that's going to change.
I've heard that before, as well. There are "high wire" types
bristling with great ideas and the self-importance to keep riding.
In a contest between noise and silence, noise usually dominates.
>>> * (Almost) Everyone likes me. I am a very friendly, personable and
>>> humorous individual. I'm a connector. So what I lack in in-group
>>> contacts I make up for in my ability to make connections quickly,
>>> especially across potential cultural and geographical boundaries. It
>>> is my hope that I can use this talent to convince the Japanese, Korean
>>> and Chinese Go Associations to take us under their wings for a few
>>> years to show us how to build a world-class go association. We'll
>>> need their help, and I'm just the person to do it.
>> Some sensitivities here, and you will probably fail at this task.
>> Organization-building is an American skill in no way related to the
>> capability for Go. The quality of an association has little, if any, to
>> do with the quality of players in that association. Tournament software
>> is generic no matter how strong or weak the tournament players are.
> Fail in which task? And why so pessimistic? Jeez. And what the AGA
> is an organization builder. They've got enough players. And the
> tournament software could make the AGA a GLOBAL leader in go
> (at least in one part of it) if it was good.
Fail in having foreign organizations do sponsorship, and fail
at having egomaniacal individuals accept submission to foreign
organizations. The whole point in having a national organization
is to provide representation for the players of that nation. If you
come at this from above, or from outside, then you abandon the
integrity-based system which emanates from individual perogative.
American presence on the Globe is so inappropriately widespread
that it behooves us to back off quite a bit and allow other cultures
to blossom and to prosper. Languages are disappearing. Many
traditions are being eroded. Global corporatism is a major problem.
Small nations can manage international presence on account of Go.
China may deploy Go as a management tool: as State Communism.
>> Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.
> And your evidence is...?
Anyone who has studied the origins of writing and representation.
> My idea here is good. If Ethan Hawke put go in his movies or something,
> people would play go.
It's a standard practice among some acting schools, to play Go.
This does not imply that they become strong players, but familiarity.
>> We have players strong at both Go and Chess.
>> They might prefer to play Chess for other subtle undocumented reasons.
> I think if Kasparov started playing go publicly, more people would play go
> even if they also still played chess...at least until such time as people
> started feeling sort of tic-tac-toe-ish about chess.
Kasparov is wound up tight with Chess. He senses an obligation
to the Chess community to continue promoting Chess, and Chess is
what he loves to do. Here he expresses "deep concern for its future."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3147
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> What do you all think of this:
> http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/Compare.html
It's dated but a worthy read. The _komi_ value has changed.
Players find what appeals to them on aesthetic grounds. Chess has
a "mass" quality which Go lacks. Aspects of Go seem "cheapened"
whereas Chess can appear "clunky." To dismiss Chess as "tactics"
ignores planning which sets up shop for a key tactical maneuver.
Having strong opponents in the form of computers is, for Chess
players, an asset rather than a liability. Some rules allow for draw
in Go, if there is an integer _komi_, or annullment for triple-ko ...
Go's supposed "superiority" is also its failing, if its conceptual
intricacies become inaccessible for young children, which is
why we again speak of Chess as a valuable training annex.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I think the AGA needs to take some risks that make them uncomfortable,
> like daring chess players to leave the safety of chess for something
> more challenging, even if they end up playing both. More people
> playing both is better'n everyone playing JUST chess.
Taking risks? Daring? You've lost me there, politician.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> What you are leaving out of your argument is any discussion
> of how China will be by far the largest and most influential
> superpower in maybe 50 or so years.
Christopher neglects to mention the lack of pollution control
standards typical of nascent communist enterprises and China's
rejection of the Kyoto Protocols. More of the same? Ronald Reagan
said: "If you've seen one redwood tree, you've seen them all."
> "Frank de Groot" <fr...@moyogo.com> wrote:
>> that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
>> failed and it still bugs him,
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> Where did you read this??
======== begin insert =============
From: -
Date: Sun, Jul 21 2002 10:32 pm
Email: jum...@earthlink.net (-)
Groups: rec.games.go
[ ... ]
This appeared in an El Paso, Tx newspaper sometime during Summer 1997:
Question: Have you ever failed at anything?
w...@eaton.k12.mi.us
Bill Gates: There are things I hoped for that I didn't achieve.
When I was young, I wanted to be the world's best
chess player and, of course, I didn't succeed.
I wanted to be the world's best Go player, too.
I wanted to keep IBM in a happy partnership with
Microsoft, and that didn't work out either.
There are people I wanted to hire whom I couldn't.
So I've had plenty of disappointments.
( send your queries to: ask...@microsoft.com )
========= end insert ==============
Now you see what Microsoft does: they recycle old stuff from
1997 and characterize it as news from two days ago ...
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> 1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower.
This is terribly premature, all so typically American to posit
such "catch-up" as an easy task. Leadership in cognitive skill
games may well require demonstration of that cognitive skill.
If the US is lucky those remarks may be interpreted as "cute"
rather than "arrogant."
> 5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would
> be commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
Ah, I suspected that "commercial" might soon enter the picture.
I notice that some articles at ChessBase are uninformative owing
to "pay-as-you-go" commercial intent. Multiply corruption by ten.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they
> will come around. Brick by brick.
Nope. They're not in denial. Chess is a fun game to play.
"Louise Bremner" <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At the back of each Nihon Kiin yearbook, there's a list of all the dan
> diplomas that the Kiin has issued that year. At the top of the list for
> 2002 is "honorary 5-dan", with "William Henry Gates" under "Overseas".
>
> Mind you, an honorary dan diploma from the Kiin doesn't mean
> much--even the Japanese astronaut who "played" go in orbit was
> given a shodan diploma.
The 5-dan diploma costs more, however Gates could afford it.
- regards
- jb
----------------------------------------------------------
UK: Asylum Seeker Convicted of Serial Rapes
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9284
----------------------------------------------------------
Jerzy
> I'm not an Idoitoit!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris Kubica
Absolutely you are !
Spamming and topposting by you in chess newsgroups is a clear sign of
your idiocy.
Rich
> Good question. For me, personally, there are two reasons. Or three.
>
> 1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower. Thus, we
> should have a great server, sponsor our own players and tourneys on it, etc.
No disrespect to your country at all, but are you really calling for
such delusion on a gross scale as a point of policy? There are three
countries that would have a strong case to make that claim; none of
them are Western.
> 4. It allows for play with servers faster/closer to home.
Is lag a significant problem for US players? Here in Europe I'm not
aware of any problem. And KGS is an American server, too...
> 5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would be
> commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
How would it be better than KGS (for approachability) or IGS/Dashn (for
very strong and varied opponents?)
Regards
Rich
Christopher Kubica
1150528782.0...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "Jerzy"
<jci...@poczta.fm> wrote:
But I didn't post spam.
Christopher Kubica
1150539638.1...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Good question. For me, personally, there are two reasons. Or three.
>>
>> 1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower. Thus, we
>> should have a great server, sponsor our own players and tourneys on it, etc.
>
> No disrespect to your country at all, but are you really calling for
> such delusion on a gross scale as a point of policy? There are three
> countries that would have a strong case to make that claim; none of
> them are Western.
I'm not sure of your question. But my best answer is "The USA *could* be a
leader in a GOOD way. Not in the "we think we're the best country in all
these ways, world" way. In a respectful, competent way. So I guess I'm
saying I'd like to help us become a respectful, competent (yet still
confident) world go leader and help fill gaps in world go like with online
tournament software. Be part of the global go community as opposed to being
sort of irrelevant now.
Rich
> 1150539638.1...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
> >> Good question. For me, personally, there are two reasons. Or three.
> >>
> >> 1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower. Thus, we
> >> should have a great server, sponsor our own players and tourneys on it, etc.
> >
> > No disrespect to your country at all, but are you really calling for
> > such delusion on a gross scale as a point of policy? There are three
> > countries that would have a strong case to make that claim; none of
> > them are Western.
>
> I'm not sure of your question. But my best answer is "The USA *could* be a
> leader in a GOOD way. Not in the "we think we're the best country in all
> these ways, world" way. In a respectful, competent way.
The strongest players are Chinese, Japanese and Korean. The biggest
organisations are too. The biggest servers. The most players. In what
way do you hope to be able to lead anything? How do you plan to guide
world go policy?
There are no Western countries in a state to become peers with the big
three; even if there were a total cultural revolution and it became
more popular than chess, it would take years, probably decades to build
to. The rest of the world all counted together can muster a few dozen
insei and a handful of professionals, mostly expatriates.
So with all the respect in the world, what on Earth do you hope to
lead? Internationally we Westerners are followers because we have to
be, and it's our very great advantage to be. We don't have the
hothouses of Korean study, the professional training schemes of China,
the schooling from small children of Japan. Thousands of people who
have been far more immersed in go nearly all their lives than you or I,
any single one of which (including themany thousands of drop-outs)
would be one of the strongest players in our respective countries - and
you want to lead them? You're a manager; don't you see the point I'm
making?
> So I guess I'm
> saying I'd like to help us become a respectful, competent (yet still
> confident) world go leader and help fill gaps in world go like with online
> tournament software. Be part of the global go community as opposed to being
> sort of irrelevant now.
Tournament software would be great; make the most of it, do the go
community a great service with it. Maybe even become a leader at go
tournament software; I'd just say keep it real.
Best regards
Rich
Robert Jasiek
>Internationally we Westerners are followers
Concerning formal go theory, the westerners are leading. The more
formal the study field the clearer the lead is. Examples:
- mathematical endgame theory
- rules theory
- mathematical ko theories
- go combinatorics
- precise terminology
- semeai theory
--
robert jasiek
-
Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> wrote:
> Concerning formal go theory, the westerners are leading.
> The more formal the study field the clearer the lead is.
I would not doubt that they're quite amused by you, Robert.
Western delusion knows no bounds. If only it were not so sad.
- regards
- jb
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Discovery of Etruscan Tomb Reveals Roots of Western Painting
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9288
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Olson
> <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote
>
>> Good idea. I thought of something like this also, but maybe lower
>> budget.
>
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear (too late :).
>
> My idea was zero-budget. I was hoping some people with camera's (like film
> academy students or something) could self-produce something.
> Of course this depends on the hopeful but perhaps unlikely fact that it
> would be possible to find such Go-playing volunteers.
>
> Perhaps a bit too optimistic..
>
Needn't be a go-player per se. I once teamed up with an Art student,
looking for a topic for a short film. We did an 8mm animation of a couple
of Honinbo games, 1 move/frame.
Robert Jasiek
> I would not doubt that they're quite amused by you, Robert.
Where is all that advanced Eastern formal go theory you suggest? To
take a simple example, where is a well-defined, unambiguous formal
definition of "independently-alive" proposed from East Asia? They may
be amused but if that shall be justified, then they should prove their
abilities.
--
robert jasiek
-
Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> wrote:
> Where is all that advanced Eastern formal go theory you suggest?
> To take a simple example, where is a well-defined, unambiguous
> formal definition of "independently-alive" proposed from East Asia?
> They may be amused but if that shall be justified, then they should
> prove their abilities.
Here are some definitions of the term: "formal" --
===========
formal, a. and n.1 -( Oxford English Dictionary )-
A. adj.
1. Of or pertaining to FORM, in various senses. a. Metaph.
Pertaining to the form or constitutive essence of a thing;
essential. Opposed to material. So formal cause (see CAUSE n. 5).
b. Pertaining to the specific form of an animal or plant. Of a
seed or germ: Endowed with a principle of form. Obs.
c. Pertaining to the outward form, shape, or appearance (of a
material object); also, in immaterial sense, pertaining to
the form, arrangement, external qualities (e.g. of a work of
art, a composition, etc.). Also, occas. of knowledge:
Theoretical as opposed to practical.
d. Logic. Concerned with the form, as distinguished from the
matter, of reasoning. formal concept [tr. G. formaler begriff]:
a concept of logic, free from the descriptive content that
would restrict it to any particular subject-matter (see
quots.); formal implication (see quots.).
e. Of or pertaining to customary form or conventionality.
2. Characterized by, or regarded according to, its form; that is
(so and so) in respect of form. a. Theol. formal sin: one which
is such in the full sense, as including not merely the outward
act which is forbidden, but the circumstances which constitute
it as sinful, e.g. evil intention. So formal schism,
schismatic, etc. Opposed to material sin, etc.
b. That is such in essence; strictly so called, essential. Obs.
c. That is such merely in outward form or appearance. Obs.
d. Of quoted statements: Exact with regard to form. Obs.
3. a. That is according to recognized forms, or to the rules of
art or law. Formerly occas. const. to.
b. Made in proper form, regular, complete. Also in familiar
use, `regular', unmistakable. Obs.
c. Of a story, etc.: Elaborately constructed, circumstantial. Obs.
4. a. Regular, having a definite principle, methodical. b. Of
feature, stature, etc.: Regular, shapely. c. Normal in
intellect, sane. Obs.
5. Done or made with the forms recognized as ensuring validity;
explicit and definite, as opposed to what is matter of tacit
understanding.
Predicatively of a law: Of unmistakable import, decisive.
[A Gallicism.]
6. a. Connected with or accompanied by form or ceremony;
ceremonial, `state'.
b. Of apparel: Ceremonial, proper to a dignity or office.
Cf. FORMALITY 10. Obs.
7. That is merely matter of form: a. Done or adopted for the sake
of form or convention; perfunctory; having the form without
the spirit or substance. b. That is matter of routine only,
not of substantial import.
8. Of persons, their manners and actions: Rigorously observant
of forms; precise; prim in attire; ceremonious. Chiefly in
reproachful use: Unduly precise or ceremonious, stiff.
9. a. Marked by extreme or excessive regularity or symmetry;
stiff or rigid in design; wanting in ease or freedom of
outline or arrangement.
b. In immaterial sense: Having a `set' or rigorously methodical
aspect or character.
B. n. A thing that is formal; esp. (orig. and chiefly U.S.) (an)
evening dress; an engagement at which such dress is worn.
===========
(1)
Which senses of the term "formal" do you reference? Could Robert
supply the German word and definition list from a German dictionary?
You can put this into German and we will translate as needed ...
(2)
Is the nature of life really unambiguous? Why should "independently
alive" be considered as unambiguous?
(3)
How are "abilities" being proved in context to the Game of Go? Did
strong Asians fail to prove their "abilities" to you in tournament play?
- regards
- jb
------------------------------------------------------------
The Eyes of the Tailless Animals
http://www.soonoklee.org/freenk.cgi
------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Jasiek
> Why should "independently alive" be considered as unambiguous?
If used as a term, yes. In Go language, even informal Go language, it
is used as a term. It does not become unambiguous simply by being used
as a term but only due to an unambiguous definition.
> How are "abilities" being proved in context to the Game of Go? Did
> strong Asians fail to prove their "abilities" to you in tournament play?
I have referred to formal theory, not to playing stength.
--
robert jasiek
-
Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> wrote:
> If used as a term, yes. In Go language, even informal Go language,
> it is used as a term. It does not become unambiguous simply by
> being used as a term but only due to an unambiguous definition.
In a procedure of formation, which is also formal study, shape
could be "independently alive" _ad_hoc_ or provisionally unless
other factors intrude such as cheating, neglect to recall who plays
next, oversights at `superko' rule enforcement, etc. Some might
claim that "unambiguous definition" is supplied only when inviting
over referees and/or the tournament director for a formal chat.
>> How are "abilities" being proved in context to the Game of Go? Did
>> strong Asians fail to prove their "abilities" to you in tournament play?
> I have referred to formal theory, not to playing stength.
I am referring to the formal results of your formal encounters.
A discrepancy in semantic interpretation here may well be caused
by orthogonality concerning directions for "formal" or "formality."
Descriptions for machines may have limited appeal, even in the
"formal" sense, because the "formal" procedure for testing such
machine descriptions is to subject them to cybernetic evaluation.
Innovative chip design radically changes a "formal" definition, so
that microcode pinouts and traces might not bear resemblance.
- regards
- jb
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hacker Uncovered US Off-Planet Space Navy
http://www.rense.com/general72/totp.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Kubica
<jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
What country are you from exactly?
Christopher Kubica
Insulting people doesn't really add anything to your arguments, you know.
And being anonymous doesn't either.
Christopher Kubica
1150552167....@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The strongest players are Chinese, Japanese and Korean. The biggest
> organisations are too. The biggest servers. The most players. In what
> way do you hope to be able to lead anything? How do you plan to guide
> world go policy?
Rich,
Believe me, I'm aiming for a competant, together AGA first before anything
like this. But I do think we could create Web-based tournament software that
would rival anything I've seen come out of anywhere for starters. We could
also lead in promoting go worldwide. Do Korea, China or Japan spend a lot do
this?
Christopher Kubica
1150539638.1...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 4. It allows for play with servers faster/closer to home.
>
> Is lag a significant problem for US players? Here in Europe I'm not
> aware of any problem. And KGS is an American server, too...
>
>> 5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would be
>> commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
>
> How would it be better than KGS (for approachability) or IGS/Dashn (for
> very strong and varied opponents?)
Hard to say specifics until I'm elected and can lead the project. But I
think all the go servers lack a really professional interface and are not
really that user friendly for beginners.
Christopher Kubica
<jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Let's qualify that statement, please. Not all tournaments allow
> computers and not all computers play Chess. At the ChessBase
> website, for example, which you are recommending for style see
> ( http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3153 ) that
> Deep Junior, with a rating less than 2nd, 3rd & 4th place finishers,
> manages to take 1st place anyway. Where is a correlation between
> ratings and tournament placement? Kasparov is holding out against
> the computers, as Marion Tinsley was able to do against Chinook.
This is all fine and good, but the fact is that computers can beat top chess
players and the computers are just going to keep getting better.
Christopher Kubica
> Mining the Chess World for players isn't really promoting the game.
> It's just recruitment from introverted people who were already inclined
> toward some form of rational enterprise via intellectual sports. A game
> itself is ancillary: pieces, tokens, mat etc., are merely that surrogate
> representation of an actual game taking place in the minds of players.
> A theme following _The_Cross_and_the_Switchblade_, or the math
> movie _Stand_and_Deliver_, or Albert Schweitzer's African Clinic,
> expresses how somebody finds a difficult situation, confronting forces
> of irrationality, but then tames them toward the cause of refinement.
> Our civilization game is played between rationality and irrationality.
> Any of the cognitive skill games are suitable for promotion of virtue.
> Perhaps the AGA should instead be "American Games Association"
> to better appreciate Shogi, Xiangqi, and other viable promulgations.
> Most Asian Go Clubs also offer forms of Chess to their members.
Well this is your view. I think a lot of chess players would love to know
about go.
Christopher Kubica
> Fortunately our inquiry is not about what you think but about what
> the facts appear to indicate. As with most any game Go is certainly
> easy to play. If you have worked with young children you may notice
> their expressions of elation and disappointment. Once trying to make
> progress beyond the "easy to play" stage there is a steep learning
> curve. Most adults are still attempting to climb that learning curve.
> Children sense this right away. Many children who do manage to
> stay with Go have also a supportive atmosphere at home where they
> receive exposure to forms of Chess. Hex is also a useful procedure.
> Among many difficulties the AGA encounters are its stuck-in-the-mud
> players who do not comprehend a general "sports" quality. We have
> soccer activities for children at the 2005 Go Congress. Capablanca
> was also capable at tennis. Strong players are in love with life itself.
I think this is just because go is not a part of culture in the US yet. But
that will change as awareness grows. Certainly children are seemingly
instantly adept at video games from a very young age. Some of those are
quite complex combinations of dexterity, critical thinking and wits.
Christopher Kubica
>> Yeah, that's going to change.
>
>
> I've heard that before, as well. There are "high wire" types
> bristling with great ideas and the self-importance to keep riding.
> In a contest between noise and silence, noise usually dominates.
It seems like pessimism is the status quo for you. Well if that suits you,
great! I don't see anything wrong with being enthusiastic about promoting go
in the USA.
Christopher Kubica
> Fail in having foreign organizations do sponsorship, and fail
> at having egomaniacal individuals accept submission to foreign
> organizations. The whole point in having a national organization
> is to provide representation for the players of that nation. If you
> come at this from above, or from outside, then you abandon the
> integrity-based system which emanates from individual perogative.
> American presence on the Globe is so inappropriately widespread
> that it behooves us to back off quite a bit and allow other cultures
> to blossom and to prosper. Languages are disappearing. Many
> traditions are being eroded. Global corporatism is a major problem.
> Small nations can manage international presence on account of Go.
> China may deploy Go as a management tool: as State Communism.
Wow, what pessimism here. In any case, I can think of no better way to build
bridges to other nations and to shrug off our pompous USA or the highway
perception by the rest of the world than by approaching other nations with
humbleness (please show us how you've built such a wonderful go organization
in your country) and good will over the go board.
No one thought Communism would end in the USSR either.
Christopher Kubica
>>> Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.
>
>> And your evidence is...?
>
>
> Anyone who has studied the origins of writing and representation.
This isn't an answer. I want cites.
Christopher Kubica
>> My idea here is good. If Ethan Hawke put go in his movies or something,
>> people would play go.
>
>
> It's a standard practice among some acting schools, to play Go.
> This does not imply that they become strong players, but familiarity.
Who cares if they are strong? If Oprah mentioned go, everyone would start
playing and that's at least a start.
Christopher Kubica
> Kasparov is wound up tight with Chess. He senses an obligation
> to the Chess community to continue promoting Chess, and Chess is
> what he loves to do. Here he expresses "deep concern for its future."
> http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3147
It seems chess politics are a mess on a national AND international scale.
Sad.
Christopher Kubica
> "Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
>> I think the AGA needs to take some risks that make them uncomfortable,
>> like daring chess players to leave the safety of chess for something
>> more challenging, even if they end up playing both. More people
>> playing both is better'n everyone playing JUST chess.
>
>
> Taking risks? Daring? You've lost me there, politician.
Hey, I'm just a computer programmer that wants to better go in the USA,
that's all.
Christopher Kubica
>> What you are leaving out of your argument is any discussion
>> of how China will be by far the largest and most influential
>> superpower in maybe 50 or so years.
>
>
> Christopher neglects to mention the lack of pollution control
> standards typical of nascent communist enterprises and China's
> rejection of the Kyoto Protocols. More of the same? Ronald Reagan
> said: "If you've seen one redwood tree, you've seen them all."
They will be pressured to continuously improve.
Christopher Kubica
> "Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
>> 1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower.
>
>
> This is terribly premature, all so typically American to posit
> such "catch-up" as an easy task. Leadership in cognitive skill
> games may well require demonstration of that cognitive skill.
> If the US is lucky those remarks may be interpreted as "cute"
> rather than "arrogant."
I never said it would be easy. Darn hard, I reckon.
Christopher Kubica
>> 5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would
>> be commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
>
>
> Ah, I suspected that "commercial" might soon enter the picture.
> I notice that some articles at ChessBase are uninformative owing
> to "pay-as-you-go" commercial intent. Multiply corruption by ten.
I said commercial QUALITY. Meaning a very polished and easy to understand
app. And you don't have to download special java apps or whatever to run it.
Just something veeeery simple yet powerful for advanced players.
Christopher Kubica
>> I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they
>> will come around. Brick by brick.
>
>
> Nope. They're not in denial. Chess is a fun game to play.
I mean in denial about chess being the ultimate intellectual pursuit.
Louise Bremner
> On 6/16/06 9:25 PM, in article 44934479...@news.isomedia.com, "-"
> <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they
> >> will come around. Brick by brick.
> >
> >
> > Nope. They're not in denial. Chess is a fun game to play.
>
> I mean in denial about chess being the ultimate intellectual pursuit.
Do you think you could put all your replies to one message into a single
message, instead of adressing each point in separate ones?
Or adjust your killfile.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Christopher Kubica
1hh4kjx.sztjpwirh8fgN%trap_for_...@yahoo.com, "Louise Bremner"
<trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry, I thought it was easier for people to follow the one-each way, but if
you want it all in one email, that's fine, too.
Louise Bremner
> On 6/17/06 10:16 PM, in article
> 1hh4kjx.sztjpwirh8fgN%trap_for_...@yahoo.com, "Louise Bremner"
> <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Christopher Kubica <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 6/16/06 9:25 PM, in article 44934479...@news.isomedia.com, "-"
> >> <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they
> >>>> will come around. Brick by brick.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nope. They're not in denial. Chess is a fun game to play.
> >>
> >> I mean in denial about chess being the ultimate intellectual pursuit.
> >
> > Do you think you could put all your replies to one message into a single
> > message, instead of adressing each point in separate ones?
> >
> > Or adjust your killfile.
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
> > If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
>
> Sorry, I thought it was easier for people to follow the one-each way, but if
> you want it all in one email, that's fine, too.
Actually, it's because it's easier to delete a single message than
several. I've seen so many people get entrapped in this point-by-point
rebuttal game over the years, I'm not much interested in following it
yet again, I'm afraid.
-
Would it be wrong to hail from Greenland, or the Moon?
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> Insulting people doesn't really add anything to your arguments,
> you know. And being anonymous doesn't either.
Who was insulted? Can you state the insult?
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> ... we could create Web-based tournament software that
> would rival anything I've seen come out of anywhere for starters.
Your Web-based tournament software would be ripped off
in the blink of an eye. Web-based software was utilized at the
2005 U.S. Go Congress.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> Hard to say specifics until I'm elected and can lead the project.
> But I think all the go servers lack a really professional interface
> and are not really that user friendly for beginners.
I've heard from the rumor-mill that there's a lot of money at
the AGA just waiting for you to snatch it up with your project.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> ... the fact is that computers can beat top chess
> players and the computers are just going to keep getting better.
The fact is that computers do not play all games of chess
and that chess players will continue to keep playing each other.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I think a lot of chess players would love to know about go.
A master-rated Chess player recently wished to know more
about Go. Unfortunately he was more interested in talking about
new game inventions than buckling down to the steep learning
curve, and the "history" aspect, of Go. The opportunities are
definitely being made available, however most Chess players
feel that they've already invested time and energy to learn their
own game or that it would be burdensome to absorb another.
There are rare exceptions but no so much as to expect any
sort of landslide conversions. Arguments for switching games
could just as well be presented either way. Why not learn Bridge
and become a strong Poker player while you're at it?
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I think this is just because go is not a part of culture in the US yet.
Go is already part of the US culture. It has been mentioned on
NBC Nightly News, the New York Times, many other newspapers
and magazines, to include the National Geographic. There is an
American Go Association, a registered entity, which means this is
part of US culture. You were concerned about insults but here you
were denigrating the many years of effort put forward by the selfless
AGA volunteers. The US already offers some Go professionals. Go
has received mention in a number of books and Hollywood movies.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I don't see anything wrong with being enthusiastic about promoting go
> in the USA.
Then be prepared for the long haul, and reports from many who try.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> ... I can think of no better way to build bridges to other nations and to
> shrug off our pompous USA or the highway perception by the rest of the
> world than by approaching other nations with humbleness (please show
> us how you've built such a wonderful go organization in your country)
> and good will over the go board.
What individuals on their own may propose to do is distinguished
from what an entire national entity proposes to do. Fortunately, in Go
one must earn the right to speak. Nobody has proposed ill will or a
lack of humility, to my recollection.
> No one thought Communism would end in the USSR either.
Poppycock. The failure of communism was being prophesized by
thousands of intellectuals. On the other hand perhaps Communism
has not exactly failed. Were you paying attention to recent politics?
>>> <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.
>> "Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
>>> And your evidence is...?
>> Anyone who has studied the origins of writing and representation.
> This isn't an answer. I want cites.
Wrong: it qualifies as an answer. You may cite it, if you please.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> Who cares if they are strong? If Oprah mentioned go, everyone
> would start playing and that's at least a start.
Well, one interpretation of whether somebody is -actually- a Go
player concerns whether their game is strong. It's something similar
to whether somebody is a musician. A level of proficiency is requried.
Sure, people could play around at Go like finger painting. With regards
to computer programs we would expect them to (at least) break past
the double-digit kyu barrier before according them "playing" status. A
"player" is somebody who factors into the mix for general consideration.
Along such lines of interpretation: somebody without a chance in the
tournament might not receive journalistic coverage as a viable "player."
If you follow this newsgroup for any length of time, or if you read back
issues of the AGA E-journal, you'll learn that people do care whether
a player is strong. Getting strong is among the usual player goals.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> It seems chess politics are a mess on a national AND international scale. Sad.
This was nothing new for the Chess community. If you wiggle your
way into the AGA then you'll find similar issues brought foward for all.
> "-" <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Taking risks? Daring? You've lost me there, politician.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I'm just a computer programmer that wants to better go in the USA, that's all.
Technically speaking, you won't "better go" (get better than Go).
You have an opportunity to improve your game and maybe help others
improve. Whether the AGA is necessary, or web-based tournament
software, or becoming a politician, remains an open question.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> They will be pressured to continuously improve.
Though they won't be pressured to unsplit their infinitives.
Your term might be "continually" rather than "continuously."
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I never said it would be easy. Darn hard, I reckon.
Sorry ... it's an order of tad magnitudes worse than "darn hard" ... :-)
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> I mean in denial about chess being the ultimate intellectual pursuit.
We're on shaky soil calling anything an "ultimate intellectual pursuit."
- regards
- jb
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahmadinejad: Investigate the Holocaust
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9296
------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
>> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>>> Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
>>> or even just one person by themselves.
> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>> I don't accept those semantics. As with binary code the requisite
>> consists of both "1s" and "0s" -- not only either or a limit on length.
tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
> I have no idea *what* you are talking about.
Conception of particles, for example, and the notion of "opposites
attract." In a statistical sense (wave-or-particle) one could model the
scenario in terms of combinatorics. Call a bit-string with 1s and 0s
"mixed" if the count of each is the same or very nearly the same.
Call a bit-string "unmixed" if the number of 1s or 0s is unbalanced.
Adjust the boundary between "mixed" and "unmixed" to show how
there are many more "mixed" than "unmixed" bit-strings. In terms
of observations it is more likely to encounter "mixed" bit-strings so
that's why "opposites attract." We tend to find more of them together.
The notion of "like particles repel" is then characterized in terms of
statistical unlikelihood: "like particles" are not generally observed.
- regards
- jb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Transit official equates gay lifestyle with deviancy
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9294
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerzy
wiadomosci news:C0B951F7.2F6EB%in...@applicationarch.com...
> But I didn't post spam.
>
Yes, you have sent spam to at least two chess newsgroups :
"So do any of you play go?
Chris"
And you don`t know that it is usually called trolling. BTW still you don`t
know netiquette : your signature is much too long.
Florian
> Highlight the fact that there is this scandal of this Chinese female pro who
> is banned from Japanese tournaments because it's suspected she is in fact
> the world's strongest player and the men are afraid. What was her name? Did
> I get the details right?
>
I wouldn't know how big the scandal really was, but her name is Rui
Naiwei: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RuiNaiwei (also see the links at the
bottom of that page).
Rich
> Believe me, I'm aiming for a competant, together AGA first before anything
> like this. But I do think we could create Web-based tournament software that
> would rival anything I've seen come out of anywhere for starters. We could
> also lead in promoting go worldwide. Do Korea, China or Japan spend a lot do
> this?
Japan certainly does (depending on your value of "a lot"; I don't know
the AGA budget for international development). The Ing foundation in
Taiwan seems to.
One question occurs - is it part of the AGA's remit to its members to
promote go internationally?
Cheers
Rich
Rich
Robert Jasiek schreef:
> On 17 Jun 2006 06:49:27 -0700, "Rich" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Internationally we Westerners are followers
>
> Concerning formal go theory, the westerners are leading. The more
> formal the study field the clearer the lead is. Examples:
> - mathematical endgame theory
> - rules theory
> - mathematical ko theories
> - go combinatorics
> - precise terminology
> - semeai theory
That's good to hear.
Are these studies used by the professionals to improve their game, do
you know, or are the Westerners primarily leading other formal
Westerners?
Regards
Rich
Robert Jasiek
>> Concerning formal go theory, the westerners are leading. The more
>> formal the study field the clearer the lead is. Examples:
>> - mathematical endgame theory
>> - rules theory
>> - mathematical ko theories
>> - go combinatorics
>> - precise terminology
>> - semeai theory
Mathematical endgame theory is hardly useful in practice yet because
it is of the nature "study 100 hours to improve 1 point once in 100
games" :) Rules theory is listened to with interest by a few experts
as far as it passes the language hurdle, however, those professionals
are very slow in applying it when they might prefer flawed tradition.
I do not know whether professionals apply already some of the
mathematical ko theories. It is rather unlikely because, as far as I
have seen, even basics like what a miai value is appears to have been
knew to them despite its origin from Japan. Go combinatorics is hardly
useful for playing at all; it is more study fun for under-occupied
mathematicians :) Some professionals (both researchers and "ordinary"
players) seem to be very interested in precise terminology, but my
guess is that they are still learning more than applying yet. I have
not heard about professionals applying modern semeai theory but they
would be very careless not to do so...
--
robert jasiek
Craig R. Hutchinson
I have played and taught Go since 1969.
This year I am again teaching Go
in the USA elementary and high schools,
and I have updated my Go flyers
for introducing and teaching the game.
In 2005 I put my Go flyers on my website
http://users.erols.com/crhutch/go.html
to tickle the Go community's fancy.
GO GAME
The player with the most points
(stones, and liberties on the grid)
wins the game.
How do you want to play, score, and enjoy the game?
Tibetan - Mig Mang,
Chinese - Weiqi,
Korean - Baduk,
Japanese - Igo,
Europen - Go,
American - Territory Go,
American - Area Go,
New Zealand - Go,
or Taiwanese - Ing?
Enjoy Go and Your Good Premises!
Hutch
http://users.erols.com/crhutch/go.html
http://gobase.org/information/pictures/cable/img/Hokuga.jpg
"-" <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44945c9d...@news.isomedia.com...
>
> > jazze...@hotmail.com (-) wrote:
> >> I would not doubt that they're quite amused by you, Robert.
>
> Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> wrote:
> > Where is all that advanced Eastern formal go theory you suggest?
> > To take a simple example, where is a well-defined, unambiguous
> > formal definition of "independently-alive" proposed from East Asia?
> > They may be amused but if that shall be justified, then they should
> > prove their abilities.
>
>
> Here are some definitions of the term: "formal" --
>
> ===========
> formal, a. and n.1 -( Oxford English Dictionary )-
>
> A. adj.
>
> 1. Of or pertaining to FORM, in various senses. a. Metaph.
> Pertaining to the form or constitutive essence of a thing;
> essential. Opposed to material. So formal cause (see CAUSE n. 5).
>
> b. Pertaining to the specific form of an animal or plant. Of a
> seed or germ: Endowed with a principle of form. Obs.
>
> c. Pertaining to the outward form, shape, or appearance (of a
> material object); also, in immaterial sense, pertaining to
> the form, arrangement, external qualities (e.g. of a work of
> art, a composition, etc.). Also, occas. of knowledge:
> Theoretical as opposed to practical.
>
> d. Logic. Concerned with the form, as distinguished from the
> matter, of reasoning. formal concept [tr. G. formaler begriff]:
> a concept of logic, free from the descriptive content that
> would restrict it to any particular subject-matter (see
> quots.); formal implication (see quots.).
>
> e. Of or pertaining to customary form or conventionality.
>
>
> 2. Characterized by, or regarded according to, its form; that is
> (so and so) in respect of form. a. Theol. formal sin: one which
> is such in the full sense, as including not merely the outward
> act which is forbidden, but the circumstances which constitute
> it as sinful, e.g. evil intention. So formal schism,
> schismatic, etc. Opposed to material sin, etc.
>
> b. That is such in essence; strictly so called, essential. Obs.
>
> c. That is such merely in outward form or appearance. Obs.
>
> d. Of quoted statements: Exact with regard to form. Obs.
>
>
> 3. a. That is according to recognized forms, or to the rules of
> art or law. Formerly occas. const. to.
>
> b. Made in proper form, regular, complete. Also in familiar
> use, `regular', unmistakable. Obs.
>
> c. Of a story, etc.: Elaborately constructed, circumstantial. Obs.
>
>
> 4. a. Regular, having a definite principle, methodical. b. Of
> feature, stature, etc.: Regular, shapely. c. Normal in
> intellect, sane. Obs.
>
>
> 5. Done or made with the forms recognized as ensuring validity;
> explicit and definite, as opposed to what is matter of tacit
> understanding.
>
> Predicatively of a law: Of unmistakable import, decisive.
> [A Gallicism.]
>
>
> 6. a. Connected with or accompanied by form or ceremony;
> ceremonial, `state'.
>
> b. Of apparel: Ceremonial, proper to a dignity or office.
> Cf. FORMALITY 10. Obs.
>
>
> 7. That is merely matter of form: a. Done or adopted for the sake
> of form or convention; perfunctory; having the form without
> the spirit or substance. b. That is matter of routine only,
> not of substantial import.
>
>
> 8. Of persons, their manners and actions: Rigorously observant
> of forms; precise; prim in attire; ceremonious. Chiefly in
> reproachful use: Unduly precise or ceremonious, stiff.
>
>
> 9. a. Marked by extreme or excessive regularity or symmetry;
> stiff or rigid in design; wanting in ease or freedom of
> outline or arrangement.
>
> b. In immaterial sense: Having a `set' or rigorously methodical
> aspect or character.
>
> B. n. A thing that is formal; esp. (orig. and chiefly U.S.) (an)
> evening dress; an engagement at which such dress is worn.
>
>
> ===========
>
>
> (1)
> Which senses of the term "formal" do you reference? Could Robert
> supply the German word and definition list from a German dictionary?
> You can put this into German and we will translate as needed ...
>
> (2)
> Is the nature of life really unambiguous? Why should "independently
> alive" be considered as unambiguous?
>
> (3)
> How are "abilities" being proved in context to the Game of Go? Did
> strong Asians fail to prove their "abilities" to you in tournament
play?
>
>
>
>
> - regards
> - jb
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The Eyes of the Tailless Animals
> http://www.soonoklee.org/freenk.cgi
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
dbd
> On 6/17/06 6:20 AM, in article
> 1150539638.1...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
> <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> 4. It allows for play with servers faster/closer to home.
>>
>> Is lag a significant problem for US players? Here in Europe I'm not
>> aware of any problem. And KGS is an American server, too...
>>
>>> 5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would be
>>> commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.
>>
>> How would it be better than KGS (for approachability) or IGS/Dashn (for
>> very strong and varied opponents?)
>
> Hard to say specifics until I'm elected and can lead the project. But I
> think all the go servers lack a really professional interface and are not
> really that user friendly for beginners.
If the only problem is interface, then why don't you just write a new
interface (or modify one of the existing open-source ones)?
I really don't think that they are that bad to be honest, suppose they would
pose a challenge people who were new to computers, but for everyone else
they are fine.
dbd
Christopher Kubica
1hh4ug1.17kq8kj1pyzfxyN%trap_for_...@yahoo.com, "Louise Bremner"
<trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Actually, it's because it's easier to delete a single message than
> several. I've seen so many people get entrapped in this point-by-point
> rebuttal game over the years, I'm not much interested in following it
> yet again, I'm afraid.
I'm only talking about it now in order to find concrete ways to promote
go...among chess players or otherwise.
Christopher Kubica
<jci...@poczta.fm> wrote:
I didn't post spam. I asked a question related to playing board games,
namely chess and go.
CDMK
Christopher Kubica
1150627717....@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Rich"
<rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Japan certainly does (depending on your value of "a lot"; I don't know
> the AGA budget for international development). The Ing foundation in
> Taiwan seems to.
>
> One question occurs - is it part of the AGA's remit to its members to
> promote go internationally?
>
> Cheers
> Rich
Gosh I hope so. In any case, I know they invite and respond to invitations
to/from many nations already re tournaments, etc. So I think they are
reaching out a little.
CDMK
Christopher Kubica
JUalg.452235$xt.1...@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk, "dbd"
<dbd@_NOSPAM_myrealbox.com> wrote:
I'd start out by putting together a team to analyze existing software and
create a wish list. You might be right that there might not be need for more
software yet, but who knows for sure yet.
CDMK
Michael Alford
> On 6/16/06 9:25 PM, in article 44934479...@news.isomedia.com, "-"
> <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've heard that before, as well. There are "high wire" types
>> bristling with great ideas and the self-importance to keep riding.
>> In a contest between noise and silence, noise usually dominates.
>
> It seems like pessimism is the status quo for you. Well if that suits you,
> great! I don't see anything wrong with being enthusiastic about promoting go
> in the USA.
>
>
> Chris Kubica
>
> President, Founder
> Application Architects, LLC
> Research Triangle Headquarters
> (P) 919-259-8023
> (F) 425-671-5648
>
> Certified FileMaker Developer
>
> FDA, Part 11, GxP, HIPAA and SOX Compliance Experts
I've been learning/playing/teaching Go since 1970, in all that time,
I've found the AGA to be a hindrance, not a helpmate, in promoting the
game. If you're serious about your goals, one thing you'd better do is
first find a way to improve its reputation among American players. My
own opinion is the AGA is so corrupt, does so little, and is held in
such low esteem internationally, that it would be better to scrap it
entirely and start anew. If you would label that "pessimism", be aware
it's born of experience.
Michael
Christopher Kubica
Alford" <ma...@aracnet.com> wrote:
It's really too bad that the AGA has this reputation if it indeed does as
you say. I will try to work to change that if I can. All I can do is try.
Any ideas of where to start as such a long-time observer?
What proof does anyone have that there is corruption?
CDMK
Jerzy
>
> I didn't post spam. I asked a question related to playing board games,
> namely chess and go.
>
Reread what you have written and don`t make such mistakes in the future.
Simon Goss
>We could also lead in promoting go worldwide. Do Korea, China
>or Japan spend a lot do this?
Yes, they do.
--
Simon
National Go Week 2-8 July 2006
UK Go Challenge for schools
http://www.ukgochallenge.com
Mef
- wrote:
>> "-" <jazze...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
>
You may have your doubts, but fact of the matter is sex is still the
most popular and most effective means of advertisment out there.
Cheers,
Mef
Christopher Kubica
Goss" <si...@gosoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kubica <in...@applicationarch.com> writes
>> We could also lead in promoting go worldwide. Do Korea, China
>> or Japan spend a lot do this?
>
> Yes, they do.
OK, well we could also. Effectively, of course.
CDMK
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
>>>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>>>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
>
>>> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>>>> Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
>>>> or even just one person by themselves.
>
>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>> I don't accept those semantics. As with binary code the requisite
>>> consists of both "1s" and "0s" -- not only either or a limit on length.
>
> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>> I have no idea *what* you are talking about.
>
> Conception of particles, for example, and the notion of "opposites
> attract."
So you're saying that because pair production of electrons produces
two different particles, gay sex isn't actually sex?
What about pair production of photons, which produces two identical
particles?
But that wasn't the point.
If gay sex isn't really sex at all, then what's the fuss about? I
thought the problem you bigots were worried about is that it *is* sex,
it's just sex that people shouldn't ever have.
Thomas
-
> "-" wrote:
>> I doubt whether half of the human species is going to be flattered by
>> preying on sex exploitative themes that rationality wishes to transcend.
"Mef" <mwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You may have your doubts, but fact of the matter is sex is still the
> most popular and most effective means of advertisment out there.
Sex in advertisements is effective for selling aspects related to sex.
Quite a lot of what you observe is sex-related, which leads to your
observations of that popularity. Newsgroup readers might imagine
Go is popular here, however it's not very popular in general culture.
Instead Go is "gender-neutral" so if you characterize it with yin/yang
there is yang in the yin and yin in the yang, and so forth, ad infinitum.
Recruitment drives for players are not identical to improvement efforts.
-----------------------------------------------------
>> Christopher Kubica <in...@applicationarch.com> writes
>>> We could also lead in promoting go worldwide. Do Korea,
>>> China or Japan spend a lot do this?
> "Simon Goss" <si...@gosoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes, they do.
"Christopher Kubica" <in...@applicationarch.com> wrote:
> OK, well we could also. Effectively, of course.
Christopher, I believe Simon is also references they "$pend a lot."
So if you wish to $pend a lot on Go, then you may lead the way...
-----------------------------------------------------
"Rich" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One question occurs - is it part of the AGA's remit to its
> members to promote go internationally?
Absolutely not. The AGA is chartered to promote Go in America.
-----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>>>>> Unfortunately "sex" involves both male and female, not some pictures.
>>>> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>>>>> Actually, sex is perfectly possible with only males, or only females,
>>>>> or even just one person by themselves.
>>> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>>>> I don't accept those semantics. As with binary code the requisite
>>>> consists of both "1s" and "0s" -- not only either or a limit on length.
>> tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) wrote:
>>> I have no idea *what* you are talking about.
> jazze...@hotmail.com (-) writes:
>> Conception of particles, for example, and the notion of "opposites attract."
"Thomas Bushnell, BSG" <tb+u...@becket.net> wrote in message
> So you're saying that because pair production of electrons produces
> two different particles, gay sex isn't actually sex?
I do not recall making any statements about "pair production."
> What about pair production of photons, which produces two identical
> particles? But that wasn't the point.
You're talking religion there. Can you prove that photons have no mass?
> If gay sex isn't really sex at all, then what's the fuss about?
> I thought the problem you bigots were worried about is that it *is* sex,
> it's just sex that people shouldn't ever have.
You're not very nice: labelling people who disagree with you as bigots.
Did I say somebody was a bigot for disagreeing with me? Gays are trying
to have sex, perhaps, but they will not succeed. Cloning and laboratory
techniques are artificial means which do not identify natural arguments.
Nobody has impaired a discourse on "gay rights" nor do individual rights
stem from sexual status in any case; this is the meaning of inalienable.
- regards
- jb
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