Joseki doesn't work like that. If you think of joseki as what the player is “supposed to do”, you'll always be vulnerable to players who don't.
Following joseki is a *weakness* unless you already know, in *this specific game*, how you will punish an opponent who deviates from it.
> But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
| . . . . . . . . X to play. | . . X . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . c 8 9 . . . . | . . O X . . . . | . . O X X O . . | . . O O X . . . | . . . . . . . . ------------------
> So I cut at 9, he played c, > and I got a bad result (of course).
> What's the best play after X plays 8?
What was the bad result?
> I hate people who don't play joseki.
That's a bit irrational. If you feel that way, perhaps you should not follow joseki and instead remain flexible to whatever your opponent does?
-- \ “It is the integrity of each individual human that is in final | `\ examination. On personal integrity hangs humanity's fate.” | _o__) —Richard Buckminster Fuller, _Critical Path_, 1981 | Ben Finney
> > Now X is supposed to play 8 at a. > > But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
> > * * * * * * * * > > * * X * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * > > * c 8 9 * * * * > > * * O X * * * * > > * * O X X O * * > > * * O O X * * * > > * * * * * * * *
> > So I cut at 9, he played c, > > and I got a bad result (of course).
> > What's the best play after X plays 8?
> Your move 7 was not joseki.
It absolutely is joseki. The question is how to punish X, after he plays 8.
> If you want to play 7, do it before the hane-tsugi.
Incorrect.
> This pattern is discussed in both Yoshida and Kogo.
Check again.
-- Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I stand by my original comment. Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
(;AB[dp]AW[fq]SZ[19];B[cm];W[cq];B[dq]LB[dr:a][cp:b]C[a = early hane b = standard joseki] (;W[dr]C[Ishida takes up this variation in Vol. III,, p93, Ref. Fig. 14, saying "the sequence to 9 is also a joseki.];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[bo] (;B[fp]C[Ishida and Kogo's are the same - this is joseki.]) (;B[dn]LB[fo:a]C["If \[B} plays 9 here ... he ends in gote, so \[W\] will start a fight by jumping to 'a'."])) (;W[cp]LB[do:a][co:b]C[a = joseki b = questionable move (Kogo's says "trouble")] (;B[do];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[co];B[cn];W[fo];B[fn];W[go];B[en]) (;B[co]LB[bo:a][cr:b][dr:c]C["Dia. 36 (a joseki but ... ). Blocking at 4 is a questionable move. Of course, if White answers at \[a\], there is no problem. Black connects at 6 and the sequence to 12 is regarded as a joseki. However, White will not necessarily respond so peacefully." - Ishida, p 94.
Kogo's: Black X is asking for trouble. White continues with b or c. White a is not recommended, and certainly lacks fighting spirit.] (;W[bo]LB[cn:a][dn:b]C[Kogo's: White 8 is a weak move. Black continues with 'a' or 'b'.];B[cn];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[fp];B[eo]) (;W[cr]LB[dr:a]C["(difficult). The moment Black creates a cutting point in his own shape by blocking at \[c5\], White may descend to 2, then answer 3 by cutting at 4. Playing hane at a plus connecting, then cutting at 4 is also possible. Both variations are difficult, so in a handicap game the chances are that Black will be outwitted. Black 1 at \[d5\] is the proper move." - Ishida, p94];B[dr];W[do]C[Ishida ends here.
Kogo's continues:];B[eo];W[dn]LB[en:a][cn:b]C[Black continues with 'a'. Black 'b' is a mistake.];B[en]) (;W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq]LB[do:a][bo:b][fr:c]C[Kogo's: White continues with the strong cut of 'a', or 'b'. White 'c' has complex variations.];W[do]C[Also possible.]))))
You can follow Kogo's developments further, if you're interested.
> > > Now X is supposed to play 8 at a. > > > But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
> > > * * * * * * * * > > > * * X * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * > > > * c 8 9 * * * * > > > * * O X * * * * > > > * * O X X O * * > > > * * O O X * * * > > > * * * * * * * *
> > > So I cut at 9, he played c, > > > and I got a bad result (of course).
> > > What's the best play after X plays 8?
> > Your move 7 was not joseki.
> It absolutely is joseki. > The question is how to punish X, > after he plays 8.
> > If you want to play 7, do it before the hane-tsugi.
> Incorrect.
> > This pattern is discussed in both Yoshida and Kogo.
> Check again. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I stand by my original comment. > Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
> (;AB[dp]AW[fq]SZ[19];B[cm];W[cq];B[dq]LB[dr:a][cp:b]C[a = early hane > b = standard joseki] > (;W[dr]C[Ishida takes up this variation in Vol. III,, p93, Ref. Fig. 14, > saying "the sequence to 9 is also a joseki.];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[bo] > (;B[fp]C[Ishida and Kogo's are the same - this is joseki.]) > (;B[dn]LB[fo:a]C["If \[B} plays 9 here ... he ends in gote, so \[W\] will > start a fight by jumping to 'a'."])) > (;W[cp]LB[do:a][co:b]C[a = joseki> b = questionable move ] > (;B[do];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[co];B[cn];W[fo];B[fn];W[go];B[en]) > (;B[co]LB[bo:a][cr:b][dr:c]C["Dia. 36 (a joseki but ... ). > Blocking at 4 is a questionable move. Of course, if White answers > at \[a\], there is no problem. Black connects at 6 and the > sequence to 12 is regarded as a joseki."
> Kogo's: Black X is asking for trouble. White continues with b or c. White a is not recommended, and certainly lacks fighting spirit.] > (;W[bo]LB[cn:a][dn:b]C[Kogo's: White 8 is a weak move. > Black continues with 'a' or '.];B[cn];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[fp];B[eo]) > (;W[cr]LB[dr:a]C["(difficult). The moment Black creates a cutting point in > his own shape by blocking at \[c5\], White may descend to 2, then answer 3 > by cutting at 4. Playing hane at a plus connecting, then cutting at 4 is > also possible. Both variations are difficult, so in a handicap game the > chances are that Black will be outwitted. Black 1 at \[d5\] is the proper > move." - Ishida, p94];B[dr];W[do]
> Kogo's continues:];B[eo];W[dn]LB[en:a][cn:b]C[Black continues with 'a'. > Black 'b' is a mistake.];B[en]) (;W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[eq] > LB[do:a][bo:b][fr:c]C[Kogo's: White continues with > the strong cut of 'a', or 'b'. > White 'c' has complex variations.];W[do]C[Also possible.]))))
Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
Anyway, the line you reference is a different move for 7. The variation I posted is certainly a joseki, if not THE joseki. You can find it in Cho's or J. Davies' books. X's 8 deviates.
I'm done with this "yes it is", "no it isn't" inanity.
Mark-T <MarkTanne...@gmail.com> writes: > On Apr 28, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > I stand by my original comment. > > Given the hane with 3, 7 is NOT joseki.
> Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
SGF isn't binary, it's an open text format for go and other games. Admittedly not text designed for a human to read directly, but then the same is true for HTML.
You can take the text of the SGF document and feed it to any of a number of Go game viewers; “Quarry” <URL:http://home.gna.org/quarry/> is one I like but you likely have used others and maybe have already chosen one.
-- \ “If you continue running Windows, your system may become | `\ unstable.” —Microsoft, Windows 95 bluescreen error message | _o__) | Ben Finney
> > > Now X is supposed to play 8 at a. > > > But in a recent game, my opponent cut at b:
> > > * * * * * * * * > > > * * X * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * > > > * c 8 9 * * * * > > > * * O X * * * * > > > * * O X X O * * > > > * * O O X * * * > > > * * * * * * * *
...
Sorry, I'm human, not a robot, I don't talk binary.
Anyway, the line you reference is a different move for 7. The variation I posted is certainly a joseki, if not THE joseki. You can find it in Cho's or J. Davies' books. X's 8 deviates.
I'm done with this "yes it is", "no it isn't" inanity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```
I believe you're thinking of the joseki where X plays a tight pincer instead of making the shimari.
