Shaking the Dust Off One's Feet

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

By far most opponents on KGS are polite, some even friendly &
informative.

Just now I encountered the rare exception:

---------------------------------------------

Game Start
bkkboy [2k]: hi {= White}
womack [2k]: Hello bkkboy! {= Black}
Move 122
bkkboy [2k]: zzzz
Move 131
bkkboy [2k]: wow...youve spent like 45 mins, i've spent 7
Move 140
bkkboy [2k]: zzzzzzzzz
Move 158
bkkboy [2k]: honestly i will happy when this ends
bkkboy [2k]: a mercy killing
bkkboy [2k]: I never would have matched if I;d known I was going to
spend an hour waiting for your uninspired moves
{W resigns, trailing by ~50 pts.}
Game Over
bkkboy [2k]: sorry, dude, I am blacklisting you
bkkboy [2k]: that was excrucitating
womack [2k]: I will save the convo.

END OF RECORD --30--
--------------------------------------------

'Tis true that, being somewhat hung-over this morning, I was playing
more slowly than usual. "bkkboy", however, accepted my clock by
challenging me. When I myself encounter the occasional slow opponent,
I can find numerous other simultaneous windows on the Net to amuse
myself while dragging through the game. Perhaps this twit's character
will improve with age?

[Mandraktophiles]

On 2/16/2013 11:43 AM, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
> By far most opponents on KGS are polite, some even friendly &
> informative.

Kick Geese Sex. It's not just for fetuses.

--
If I told you once I told you a thousand times.

[Mark Steere]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 10:43:23 AM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
>
> Perhaps this twit's character will improve with age?

You're not one to judge character, Hal, playing "hung-over" and dragging the game out. That shit's obnoxious. People accept large clock times, not expecting to have their whole day wasted by a nincompoop. Sure, he could have occupied his wasted time with other simultaneous activities, but it's a tad presumptuous on your behalf to expect that. Bkkboy was well within his rights with his honest assessment of your butt dragging. Don't be so sensitive. And lay off the booze, nincompoop.

[Detlef Müller]

Am 19.02.2013 17:05, schrieb Mark Steere:
> On Saturday, February 16, 2013 10:43:23 AM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan
> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps this twit's character will improve with age?
>
> You're not one to judge character,

why not? Because you say so? The kind of comments from
the original postig are unkind and a clear sign of bad
manners and - yes - this it is related somehow with
"character".

> Hal, playing "hung-over" and
> dragging the game out.

Using the time is obviously the reason making according
time-settings.
Impatient people should consider not to play games like
go or chess - at least not the versions with thorough
considerations but maybe the blitz-variants.

> That shit's obnoxious. People accept large
> clock times, not expecting to have their whole day wasted by a
> nincompoop.

Thats sounds plain stupid to me.
If I see long time settings, there is no excuse for
first accepting the settings and then being
short-tempered and getting rude afterwards.
Should people wanting a "nice slow game" mark their offer
with "Warning: I am really willing to use the time in the
settings"? Thats ridiculous.

If playing in a club without clock it might be ok to
utter the wish of a speed up or even mentioning that it
is not polite to play much to slow ... but when using a
clock with agreed time setting - No.

Have a nice Day,
Detlef

[Mark Steere]

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:06:53 PM UTC-8, Detlef Müller wrote:
>
> If I see long time settings, there is no excuse for first
> accepting the settings and then being short-tempered and
> getting rude afterwards.

Well bully for you, shithead. Hal has admitted to playing "hung-over" and "playing more slowly than usual", a euphemism for totally dragging his butt. I don't give a crap about the settings. Playing like that elicits derision. Suck my dick.

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

From the subway in Queens to the streets of San Francisco's Chinatown,
kids all over the country are forever breaking into smiles when they
see me, pointing and saying, "Santa Claus"! What with my own grin,
white beard & the big belly beneath it, you know. So I just lov'em
all, the lil' rainbow rascals.

Consequently I want utterly to destroy the murderers of children and
this fundamental 'tude of mine, long publicly expressed, has got me on
the "Enemies List" of that group witch's most notorious worldwide for
brazen kiddie-killing.

Now everybody knows whom I mean here but only a very few dare to say
the name out loud, xactly 'cause they know the mob under question for
dangerous, murdering motherfuckers. In the last half century or so,
the Jews --oops, it somehow slipped out -- have done in Jack, Bobby,
Malcolm, Martin, Koresh, Diana the WTC office workers and some
30,000,000 [thirty million] other victims worldwide. The most
dangerous variety of this terrible tribe are the smiling "I am not a
Zionist, here, let me help you out" ones like Chomsky, Finkelstein,
Blankfort, Lubin, Benjamin, Goodman usw --rather than the flat-footed,
out-front jerk-offs like cock-sucking Mark Steere
<markste...@gmail.com> here in this thread.

Steere's gripe against Obomber = the latter, in the former's opinion,
has murdered way too few Muslims.

Hey, Slybootz slipz up, faw down, go boom, haw, haw!

A few of the martyred little girls to remember = Akaber Zaid, Abir
Aramin, Iman al-Hams and the wee Rabbo Sisters. As long as their
killers --including at least 95% of the US Congress-- are still
running around free --let alone in charge of the USGov etc-- then all
Seven Billion of us remain in danger of our own lives.

Now there's a life & death problem to ponder, eh what?

I propose to see the Jewish State go the way of Manchukuo and all warx
[see below, Glossary] thrown into dungeons. Hence slogan such as:

HP

for "Hang HenKi by His Pinkie".

ABOLISH THE DEATH PENALTY
--EVEN FOR OBOMBER, CLINTONZ, BUSHEZ
& KABAL?

OTOH I have also long been by far the leading cheerleader on the Net
for the tiny handful of genuinely righteous public Jews, starting
with
His Handsome Excellency Mordechai Vanunu, also the late essential
author Israel Shahak, the living Victor Ostrovsky and my esteemed Net-
friend Gideon Polya PhD of Melbourne.

Clones of the malignancy such as Feinstein, Bibi & wee Steere here
menace their own tribe even more than they do the other 99.9% of us.

Design proposal =

Start with the flag of Manchukuo:

http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Flag_of_Manchukuo.svg

OR http://tinyurl.com/b599m6t

Then in the mustard yellow field, insert a small NaZionist alias
Israeli flag.

We can repeat this trick with the flag of the now-vanished US puppet
state of "South Vietnam" and also with Johnny Reb's "Stars & Bars":

http://tinyurl.com/ab8hlrt

Slap the little 6-pointer rag rt in the middle of the dead slavers'
ole banner. Home to mama, boychik.


==========================

GLOSSARY 20121010:
……………..
AG2HXU = "Always Good To Hear From You"
...............
APM = “As Previously Mentioned”
…..................
AFTOC = “After a Fair Trial, Of Course”
………….
CIB = “Composition In Brief”, i.e. only short time available.
…………………
DEW = "Dog Ever Willing". The medieval predecessor of this pious
sentiment was "D.V.", for "Deus Volens". The ancient Muslim equivalent
= _Insha'Allah_, witch's in turn the origin of the common Spanish word
_ojala_, as in "!Ojala que si!" or "May it be so!" Clearly similar in
meaning to our English "Amen!"
..............................
F = "Follow-up" + # for order of appearance in the given thread.
………………………..
FODAD = Freedom Of Diet And Dress
………………………….
FTR = 1.) "For The Record". 2.) "Failure To Respond".
.................................
GABI = “Grin And Bear It”
…………………………
_hasbara_ = Hebrew for "lies for Jews to peddle to normal people
alias "gentiles". Such a lipflapper, especially a hired one = a
"hasbarat".
.............................
HDS = "Hypohetical Diligent Student"
.........................................
HP = “Hang HenKi by his Pinkie”
…........................
HenKi = Henry Kissinger
……………………………..
IFOT = "In the Fullness Of Time"
.................................................
JA = Jewish-American, in several variations: R for Regime; T
for Tyranny; M for eMpire; PE for Planetary Empire (thus, “JAPE”)
…………………….
JJ = joojingo
…...........................
joopo = Jewish Secret Police
..............................
JOW = "Jew Of the Worst Sort"
.................................
K7 = Kosher King Kissinger's Kultish Kabal of Kiddie- Killers
……………………….
KPFS = "Know Problem, Find Solution"
...............................
MEDUSA = propaganda alias "news" MEDia of the USA
…………………
MLG = “Murdering Little Girls”.
…....................
MULL = "MUrder, Looting & Lying"
...............................
ODC's = “Occupied & Destroyed Countries”.
…........................
OFD = “One Fine Day”
……………..
OP = "Originating Post"
.......................
PFAB = "Please Find Appended Below".
…........................

PFG = Philadelphia Fire Gang, Mayor & police who on May 13,1985
burned to death 5 kids & 6 adults and destroyed a block of homes in
the process.
…………………..
STD = "Shot To Death". When with extension then "By Jews".

...................................
T6 = Tucson, 6 slain in Stunt of Saturday 8 January.
......................................
Thread Protocol Nomenclature:
OP = "Originating Post", hence also "-er".
On this thread, OP = _moi_ or {Hal Womack 3-dan
<hal.wom...@gmail.com>}
F = "Follow-up", hence also F1 etc for Follow-up posters.
…................................
UZI's = Ultra-Zionists
……………………..
wark = from War Kriminal,
plural = "warx"
………………………

WADRT = "With All Due Respect To"

..........................................

WTB = "With The Blessing", as Stephen Maturin says.
….....................
END GLOSSARY.
===============================
http://tinyurl.com/bfqaa5e
From: markste...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 18:22:40 GMT
{Stop harassing Israel. Guess what? The Israelis aren't going away.
Fucking deal with it. You think they're all going to pack up and
leave
because you stage an infantile, foot-stomping tantrum at their
border? Fuck
off already....
Obama really threw Israel under the bus....
Sorry, Israel. We'll try to vote Obama, the worst president in
United
States history, out of office, but we need someone better.}
........................................
From: Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:05:53 -0800 (PST)
{You're not one to judge character, Hal, playing "hung-over" and
dragging the game out. That shit's obnoxious. People accept large

clock times, not expecting to have their whole day wasted by a

nincompoop. Sure, he could have occupied his wasted time with other
simultaneous activities, but it's a tad presumptuous on your behalf to
expect that. Bkkboy was well within his rights with his honest
assessment of your butt dragging. Don't be so sensitive. And lay off
the booze, nincompoop.}

=========================

[Mark Steere]

Woops, didn't mean to push you over the edge, dude. I was just joshing you

[locks doors, dims lights]

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

F2's early, shrinking retirement to darkened dreamland gives me the
chance to touch up the thread title for my future editor. For the
book, it should better read: "Shaking Off the Dust From One's Feet".
Meanwhile, however, for the sake of simplicity, we sail on-line as is.

Also in these parlous days, 'tis refreshing to encounter another
honest man on the Usenet, so friendly greetings to Detlef Müller.

====================

[Mark Steere]

On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:00:57 PM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
>
> For the book, it should better read:

> "Shaking Off the Angel Dust From One's Mustache".

I like it. Very apropos.

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

Two steps back I named in particular 5 young girls STDJ or "Shot To
Death by the Jews". In the First Gaza Massacre of 2009 alone, the Is-
yids slew over 300 children. JAR aka the Jewish-American Regime
enthusiastically supports this bloody practice which I have branded
"MLG" for "Murdering Little Girls". From September 29,2000 to the
present 129 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and
1,516 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis.* Two of the
many prominent JAR institutions include Congress & the Sulzbergerz'
NYT. F2**, whom I have unmasked on this thread as a hasbarat, joins
the other Stern Gangsters in rejoicing over the slaughter of normal
children, known to them as "_goyim_".

One of my many coined acronyms = MULL for MUrder, Looting & Lying,
chief activities for JOWS or Jews Of the Worst Sort. Like the
underbosses often mentioned including Feinstein, Boxer, Schumer,
Foxman, all the way down to wee F2 here.

Now in plain view of anyone who cares to see, F2 adds the frill of
forging my name to its own rubbish. "In for a penny, in for a pound",
as the old saying goes. The classic Greek word for overweening pride &
arrogance was "hubris". For the Greeks this characteristic was the
principal tragic & fatal flaw. The Yiddish translation = "_chutzpah_"
and the Jews think it's just as cute as kittens.

A poem from the files:

CRASHING THE BLACK HELICOPTERS OR
TRUTH TO TELL***

By Hal Womack 3-dan

Hebrew harpies howl with glee
As gunships strafe wedding par-tee.
As mother shrieks o'er daughter's shroud.
Feinstein's crowd laugh out loud.

Yet I who am, saY:

Tyrants toothy with nuke and chopper
Are fixing to come a cropper.
Birds of prey of the wicked set
Do foul their claws in our Internet.

Though New York TIMES hides kosher crimes,
Our Usenet newsgroup knocks their loop.
White House gibbers lies by the mile
While Six Billion skeptics grimly smile.

Since the Jew dared war against the All,
Now, therefore, let him take the Fall!
To make our world a better place,
Remove the murderer from the human race.

Who likes new picture, can she paint it?
Justice to see, be simple, ain't it?
.......................................................

Poetry & song = weapons powerful enough to defeat JAPE's H-bombs,
torture chambers and network TV.

One such way to begin your own day, for example:

D.O.G. = DAWN OVER GAZA: A Hate Song (# 4)

By Hal Womack (Tuesday '090728 -- To the tune of "Morning Has
Broken")

Morning has broken, like the job market,
Harley has spoken to the leaf blower,
Shit for the collapse, shit for the racket,
Shit for the joolordz grabbing for more.

Swift the drone's coming, gunlit from Heaven,
Strikes the first mother on the dry sand,
Shit for the slaughter of her four daughters,
Slain the whole family by the joohand.

Ours be the watching, ours be the planning
Born of the heart's cry for the repay.
Sing with elation, praise every morning
Her recreation of the new day!

.........................................

When shit happens, do you wipe your ass?

Unless one hates the crime of murder, how can one love people?

....................................

Alright, I confess, sometimes I do have falafel crumbs and hummus
on my mustache.

Does "Mark Steere" dare show his face? His name fails to appear in AGA
ratings (#5).

In the old days, cautious customers would ring a silver or gold coin
against steel to test its quality or bite their teeth against it. In
this thread, who speaks the truth? Who tries stupidly & repeatedly to
pass counterfeit? What does this small series of exchanges here tell
us about the larger world?

Does the reader see why the Jews hate the Usenet so much?

Cross-examination = the real Net-threat against rotten tyrants, eh?

-----------------------------------------------------------

* http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

..................................

** F2 = {Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com>}
..................................

***
http://tinyurl.com/bb3o7hz

Subject: Raining Blood On the Murderers' Parade (6/5)
Newsgroups: ba.politics, ca.politics, ba.general, soc.culture.usa,
soc.culture.african.american
Date: 3 Jun 2005 16:32 -0700
...........................................................

#4.)

http://tinyurl.com/a5mhvdp

Subject: "Dawn Over Gaza" -- A Hate Song
Newsgroups: rec.music.hip-hop, alt.politics, rec.arts.poems,
talk.politics.mideast, alt.religion.christian
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:35 -0700 (PDT)

Cat Stevens - Morning Has Broken - Live 1973
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TWd3skb-Rw

............................

#5.)

http://www.usgo.org/ratings-lookup-name?NamesLike=steere

========================

[Mark Steere]

I'm not a Go player. Neither am I a Jew. Wrong on both counts, genius.

Not that I'd mind being a Jew. I'd have a bigger nose, a bigger brain, and a bigger dick. Two out of three ain't bad.

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

We do know "Mark Steere" for a liar, Whether that be the name of a
real person = another question altogether. Several times in the past
Usenet hecklers pretending to display their names have faded away when
challenged to produce their bona fides.

F2 came on the thread in the first place pretending to take the side
of my opponent in a KGS game. Now it disclaims any knowledge of the
game of _go_. What then was its original motive for running its mouth
here?

The answer seems quite clear, as already presented. Who cares whether
F2 be a yid by blood, like Vladimir Illyich Lenin, Alan Greenspan &
HenKi or a mere hired jootool, like Clintonz, Bushez, Obomber etc?

Throughout its 5 posts in this thread, it certainly has spoken with a
distinctively joosh accent. Rude & stupid.

HenKi's Kabal brags about spending billion$ to hire cyberthugs but,
given the nature of their stinking case, all they can come up with =
shambling knuckle-draggers & lead-footed liars like this one.

As usual, the one thing we can say on F2's behalf = It does as well
for its sordid side as Tom Friedman could, did TF dare to appear in
such an open forum.

----------------------------------------------------

http://tinyurl.com/bfqaa5e

From: markste...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 18:22:40 GMT

{Stop harassing Israel. Guess what? The Israelis aren't going away.
Fucking deal with it. You think they're all going to pack up and
leave
because you stage an infantile, foot-stomping tantrum at their
border? Fuck
off already....
Obama really threw Israel under the bus....
Sorry, Israel. We'll try to vote Obama, the worst president in
United
States history, out of office, but we need someone better.}

====================

[Mark Steere]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27:36 AM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
>
> We do know "Mark Steere" for a liar, Whether that be the name of
> a real person = another question altogether. Several times in the
> past Usenet hecklers pretending to display their names have faded
> away when challenged to produce their bona fides.

What did I lie about? My name is Mark Steere. I'm a designer of abstract games. http://www.marksteeregames.com/index.html I'm also an Internet hooligan who starts shit with people just because. How bona fide do I have to be? Everyone who thinks you're a nut case is unreal? That's a lot of unreal people.

> [Mark Steere] came on the thread in the first place pretending to take

> the side of my opponent in a KGS game.

I wasn't pretending. I really was taking sides against you. Not because I'm part of a Jewish conspiracy but simply because I wanted to point out how ridiculous you and your ridiculous complaint were. "I played like a constipated turd because I was hung over. Then my opponent had the audacity to accuse me of playing like a constipated turd. Can you believe it?" Yes, I can believe it.

> Now it disclaims any knowledge of the game of _go_.

I never disclaimed any knowledge of Go. I just said I'm not a Go player. I know how to play. I've played maybe 10 times in my life. But I don't particularly enjoy playing Go. At the same time I find Go interesting at some level. I designed a Go variant called Redstone, the purpose of which was to eliminate the aesthetic abomination, ko. Not to mention superko, the ugliest rule in the world.

Redstone rule sheet:
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Redstone_rules.pdf

> What then was its original motive for running its mouth here?

Because you're a crybaby. "Boo hoo, someone insulted me." Tough shit, crybaby. Now it turns out you're also a ranting lunatic. The world is a Jewish conspiracy. Maybe as a child you got sodomized up the ass by a Jewish Santa's huge circumcised dick when you were sitting on his lap, and you never got over it.

> Rude & stupid.

As though you're not. Good luck with your "book", rofl I don't know how much of a market there is for paranoid, incoherent rants, but you might want to hire a good copy editor. As it is, your writing is a syntactic Hiroshima.

[brent]

On Feb 20, 5:01 pm, Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27:36 AM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
>
> > We do know "Mark Steere" for a liar, Whether that be the name of
> > a real person = another question altogether. Several times in the
> > past Usenet hecklers pretending to display their names have faded
> > away when challenged to produce their bona fides.
>
> What did I lie about?  My name is Mark Steere.  I'm a designer of abstract games.  http://www.marksteeregames.com/index.html I'm also an Internet hooligan who starts shit with people just because.  How bona fide do I have to be?  Everyone who thinks you're a nut case is unreal?  That's a lot of unreal people.
>
> > [Mark Steere] came on the thread in the first place pretending to take
> > the side of my opponent in a KGS game.
>
> I wasn't pretending.  I really was taking sides against you.  Not because I'm part of a Jewish conspiracy but simply because I wanted to point out how ridiculous you and your ridiculous complaint were.  "I played like a constipated turd because I was hung over.  Then my opponent had the audacity to accuse me of playing like a constipated turd.  Can you believe it?"  Yes, I can believe it.
>
> > Now it disclaims any knowledge of the game of _go_.
>
> I never disclaimed any knowledge of Go.  I just said I'm not a Go player.  I know how to play.  I've played maybe 10 times in my life.  But I don't particularly enjoy playing Go.  At the same time I find Go interesting at some level.  I designed a Go variant called Redstone, the purpose of which was to eliminate the aesthetic abomination, ko.  Not to mention superko, the ugliest rule in the world.
>

The better you get at go the more you embrace the ko. Kos are
beautiful.

So many games are determined by the proper handling or mishandling of
a complicated ko.

[Mark Steere]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 5:37:19 PM UTC-8, brent wrote:
>
> The better you get at go the more you embrace the ko.

I know, I know. I've heard it all before.

> Kos are beautiful.

Not to me.

> So many games are determined by the proper handling or mishandling
> of a complicated ko.

Redstone removes the complication of ko, but creates more complicated life and death scenarios. Don't ask me to explain how.

[Robert Jasiek]

Mark Steere wrote:
>Redstone removes the complication of ko, but creates more complicated life and death scenarios.

How do you measure complexity? If we consider complexity classes for
generalised go, life and death is as complex as ko (because LD can
depend on ko), which, IIRC, is in EXPTIME.

[Mark Steere]

On Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:54:52 AM UTC-8, Robert Jasiek wrote:
>
> life and death is as complex as ko

Anecdotal Redstone analysis by topazg:

################
If you aren't Mark Steere, this may not be interesting, but feel free to read anyway.

My initial impression of Redstone, from having played it twice now, is one of interest. Strategically, it's basically Go, but with a few twists. Tactically, it has an inherent system that I'm inclined to believe increases the depth of complexity quite a bit. This will have an impact on strategy, but I'm not entirely sure what yet.

One thing I haven't analysed in enough detail is life and death common shapes. In Go, there are a number of sequences, shapes, and combinations that are known to be even or good for one side. Some of these retain their qualities more or less in Redstone, some are turned upside down. That has some interesting effects. In Go, having 4 or 5 options that you can pick based on whole board circumstances makes the game interesting, and one in which enhanced knowledge bears fruit. If 1 or 2 of those options become non-options, this adjusts the breadth of "good play options", which sounds like Redstone would risk becoming the strategically weaker game. However, coupled with this is life and death. When someone allows their opponent to live in the corner in return for outside thickness, that's a strategic decision based on balancing outcomes. If that corner is _also_ dead because of Redstones capture mechanics, it's an outright good result for the person developing the thickness. As a result, a few joseki ideas and invasion ideas will suddenly become non-viable, and I suspect some of the strategic depth will increase again, most likely balancing out some of the other decreases.

Until there's a reasonable understanding of living shapes and dead shapes and sekis (notice there are no ko shapes in Redstone), it will be easier to assess what Redstone's strategy is like, but we aren't there yet. My game against illluck was an eye-opener, as I fabricated a living group out of thin air inside my opponent's territory. There are a number of hane / crosscut situations which simply don't work in Go, but do in redstone, as you can end up with eyes appearing out of nowhere when red stones hit the board. It's also clear that two point eyes are frequently not eyes at all, and single stone self atari sacrifice play has gained a lot of leverage.

All of this impacts my feeling on the desired board size. A few days ago, I said 15x15 would probably be ideal, and I still feel it's well worth trying out. However, the reason for 19x19 in Go is that the corner sequences are well understood, and the results of the sequences reasonably closely theorised. Make the board too small, and the sides are not interesting enough once the corners are played out. Make the board too big, and no corner sequence can exert enough influence on the sides to make the balance between corners and sides interesting. It's a funny tightrope, and it's not clear whether 21x21 may end up superior, but current professional opinion is still that it wouldn't.

In Redstone, I suspect the nature of captures will expand the value of influential plays, as kills seem more common and playable on internal eye shapes, particularly bulky ones. As a result, it may be more viable on a 19x19 board to play 3-5, 4-5, and 4-4 stones than corner orientated ones, and as the cause of this change would be the size of a group required to feel confident of life, it's possible that would mean that there's still not enough scope for side play on a 19x19 board, and an ideal board size would be more like 23x23 to maintain the strategic depth that Go enjoys.

As with anything deep and interesting, there's more questions here than answers, but that's some of my thoughts so far.

It certainly feels a very interesting variant, and I'd happily put it alongside Go for depth and value, but how deep that rabbit hole goes is still unanswered.
#############

Redstone sample games at LifeIn19:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5480&hilit=red&start=0
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5533&hilit=redstone&start=0

[Robert Jasiek]

Ah, ok, thx! My googling misled me to a role playing game of that
name:) I will need to read the go variant Redstone's rules then.

[Hal Womack 3-dan]

Now Mark Steere has further exposed himself as a fantastic buttfucky.
He's proud to declare that he finds absolutely incomprehensible the
motive of wanting to punish the murderers of children. What he wants =
his cut for the kill. A little on the short-sighted side, maybe?

Did Steere's keeper, JAPE's Kosher Kabalistik Kommissar for Usenet
Psywar, pay MS a tidy cash bonus to present his allegedly _goyishe_
name & Website on this thread? Named help be hard for the joogang to
find, what with the hoofbeats in the distance.

Besides the cited general MLG brand, I have also coined the particular
RSI label which may come into further play, does Steere stick around
here.

Song:

They ask on Mother Earth today:
How does a body choose?
He'll either be an honest man
Or goon for bloody Jews.

Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?

To the tune of:

Pete Seeger "Which side are you on"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

OTOH does Steere & whosoever else he playmates with decide to run off
& start his very own thread somewhere to promote his concoctions then,
as long as he omits my name & keeps out of politics, I'll cheerfully
stay away therefrom.

Meanwhile, ole Jimmy Carter's due in SF town this Sunday, which makes
an opportune moment for us locals to review his career. Do we all
agree that SEG for "Shit-Eating Grin" is pronounced to rhyme with
"edge"? Big surprise: JC's written 27 books. His historical novel
HORNET'S NEST [2003] tells of the revolutionary war in Georgia and
rates as a masterpiece. Shall we compare the quality of that work with
the rest of his doings? If so, 'twill happen shortly in other ng's.
Maybe Monday I'll look back here FWIW.

======================

Redstone rule sheet:
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Redstone_rules.pdf
> What then was its original motive for running its mouth here?

Because you're a crybaby. "Boo hoo, someone insulted me." Tough
shit, crybaby. Now it turns out you're also a ranting lunatic. The
world is a Jewish conspiracy. Maybe as a child you got sodomized up
the ass by a Jewish Santa's huge circumcised dick when you were
sitting on his lap, and you never got over it.
> Rude & stupid.

As though you're not. Good luck with your "book", rofl I don't know
how much of a market there is for paranoid, incoherent rants, but you
might want to hire a good copy editor. As it is, your writing is a
syntactic Hiroshima.

..........................................

[Mark Steere]

On Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:40:58 PM UTC-8, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
>
> [Mark Steere] proud to declare that he finds absolutely incomprehensible

> the motive of wanting to punish the murderers of children.

What the fuck are you going to do to "punish" anyone, besides bore everyone to death with your paranoid rant? Send bombs to Jews and demand that newspapers publish your psychotic manifesto? GET A GRIP, WACKO!!!!

> OTOH does Steere & whosoever else he playmates with decide to run
> off & start his very own thread

Hal Jackoff: "How dare you derail my irrelevant, paranoid rant?"

Why should I start my own thread, Blowjack, when I can simply hijack yours? Could you possibly lose any harder? Just wondering if it's even possible.

[Robert Jasiek]

My first impression after reading the Redstone rules: nice, consistent
idea! It is one of the better variants inventions. However, I have not
tried the game yet. IIUC, late during a game, a player might need to
fill an eye of his two-eye-formation, then the opponent redstone
captures such a group etc. Therefore, there is something similar to a
pass-fight (fight to avoid the illegal first pass): the players must
ensure to maximise their move numbers within territory regions and
enter vital points of opposing territory regions to prolong their
game.

[Mark Steere]

On Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:53:23 PM UTC-8, Robert Jasiek wrote:
>
> My first impression after reading the Redstone rules: nice,
> consistent idea! It is one of the better variants inventions.

Thanks :)

> IIUC, late during a game, a player might need to fill an eye of
> his two-eye-formation, then the opponent redstone captures such a
> group etc.

Yep, YUC. Go is a game of score and Redstone is a game of annihilation. Sounds like a big difference, but the two games end up playing fairly similarly (FWIH from Go players).

There can be no komi in Redstone since there's no score. Pie is used instead. Fortunately, there are initial moves bad enough to make pie work, though there isn't a strong consensus on exactly what those moves are. It's agreed that making a corner move is more than bad enough though.

> Therefore, there is something similar to a pass-fight...

I can't comment on that since it's beyond my purview. I wish I had some knowledge of Go, but I simply don't have the patience to learn it. I'm glad Professor Shitface's thread was available for hijacking though. My initial Redstone post here was completely ignored.

[justin...@gmail.com]

Mark, Bill has suggested that a variant of komi can be added to no pass go by allowing one player to legally pass one or more times. Can't this be used for Redstone?

[Mark Steere]

I don't know, but what's wrong with pie? Why jump through hoops to make Redstone more Go like? Why not just let Redstone be its own game?

[Mark Steere]

Nick Wedd sent me this, possibly intending to post it here:
>
> So Redstone, like no-pass go (see http://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo)
> has a long stage near the end of the game in which the players
> play inside their opponent's territory, preferably in a way
> that prevents the opponent from efficiently separating it into
> one-point eyes; and inside their own territory in a way that
> does separate it into one-point eyes. There is a moderate amount
> of skill in this, so you can't just do it automatically like
> dame-filling; but not enough skill (in my view) to make it
> interesting.

Right, it's not interesting, either in Go or Redstone, when it's essentially game over, but the loser presses on, refusing to resign.

> I wonder how "prisoner return", as mentioned on the page cited,
> would affect Redstone.

Here's Bill Spight commenting on prisoner return in Redstone in LifeIn19:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5545&p=92430&hilit=redstone+prisoner#p92430

[Mark Steere]

Hal Blowjack: "What's with all this Go related discussion?? I thought we were here to discuss villainous Jews!!"

[justin...@gmail.com]

I was making a theoretical point, really.

But I wouldn't be surprised that the reasons for or against the pie rule are the same in Go and Redstone. It's hard to know, because we haven't seen a lot of play, and it's conceivable that the difference in life and death turns into a huge difference in the opening.

[Mark Steere]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 5:44:32 PM UTC-8, justin...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I was making a theoretical point, really.
>
> But I wouldn't be surprised that the reasons for or against the pie rule
> are the same in Go and Redstone. It's hard to know, because we haven't
> seen a lot of play, and it's conceivable that the difference in life and
> death turns into a huge difference in the opening.

Is there any argument against pie for Go or Redstone in terms of balancing the game? I.e. virtually neutralizing turn order advantage?

[Detlef Müller]

Hi,

[start: didn't read manual well warning]

First, I might have miss understood something from the rules
(reference is the printout form titled with "RED").

Lets play a 2x2-Board to make it simple.
Now start a mini-game:
Ba1, Wa2, Bb1, Wb2(red stone) leaves to (last move
in slow motion):

w. -> wr -> .r after the capture, the game continues
bb -> bb -> .. like

Ba2, Wb1, Ba1(red stone) the last move looks like:

br -> br -> .r
.w -> rw -> r.

All b and w are anihilated, no more move possible.
What is the result?

[end: didn't read manual well warning]

Ooops - Black win, just saw it :)

This rule might be kind of a tie-breaker for
theese guys who are more interested in having a
winner than in a nice equal fighting game ending
in a rightly jigo ... a good result imo - but thats
a different story. Or this rule essential?

Ok, on 2x2 Black looses.

I think it should be easy to find the results with a
backtracking program for board-sizes up to, say 4x4.

However analysing mini-board-games might reveal
some redstone-"tesujis".

Am 23.02.2013 01:22, schrieb Mark Steere:
> Nick Wedd sent me this, possibly intending to post it here:
>>
>> So Redstone, like no-pass go (see
>> http://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo) has a long stage near the end of
>> the game in which the players play inside their opponent's
>> territory, preferably in a way that prevents the opponent from
>> efficiently separating it into one-point eyes; and inside their own
>> territory in a way that does separate it into one-point eyes. There
>> is a moderate amount of skill in this, so you can't just do it
>> automatically like dame-filling; but not enough skill (in my view)
>> to make it interesting.
>
> Right, it's not interesting, either in Go or Redstone, when it's
> essentially game over, but the loser presses on, refusing to resign.
>

I think the point was:

In go, with little training it is easy to see,
when there is no way to achieve anything in an
area (at least in simple cases - and if its not
simple, well then its not essentially game over).

In redstone the outcome might not be clear even for
experienced players ...
but to see if this is the case or not,
there first have to exist experienced players at all -
but they dont.
I guess even a professional go player is on completely
new terrain here.
Good go players might use their reading abilities,
yes.

Detlef

[Mark Steere]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 3:38:39 AM UTC-8, Detlef Müller wrote:
>
> (reference is the printout form titled with "RED").

The most recent rule sheet is titled Redstone, somewhat clarified in response to confused readers' feedback. The name was changed since there was already another game called Red.

http://www.marksteeregames.com/Redstone_rules.pdf

> rightly jigo

I'm not a rightly jigo kind of guy. I don't like ties and I especially hate endless cycles.

MSG Abstract Games:
http://www.marksteeregames.com/MSG_abstract_games.html

> I guess even a professional go player is on completely
> new terrain here.

I'm pretty sure Go skill will translate proportionally to Redstone skill. Redstone should be strangely familiar terrain. Surround and capture, with a splash of red.

[justin...@gmail.com]

I'm not sure if you'd accept it or not, but I personally find the pie rule aesthetically unpleasant for go. It seems to work well in the connection games I've played, because the badness of a weak move is real, but not a big deal: so your stone is out of place, well, you just connect to it the same way. In Go, a bad enough move will be really out of place--you'll have three corners where you play ordinary sequences, and one corner (or side) that just has this ugly dangling stone. I realize that's a little fuzzy, but it's the way I feel about the idea of a pie rule.

I think, but am not sure that my attitude is shared. See http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5501&hilit=pie+rule.

There's also the question of what stone would be adequate to balance the game. It's surprisingly tricky to decide, though it would be easy enough if we got a few dozen thousands of games.

[Mark Steere]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 4:09:32 PM UTC-8, justin...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if you'd accept it or not, but I personally find the pie
> rule aesthetically unpleasant for go.

I find the pie rule aesthetically unpleasant, period. It's a necessary evil. Ideally, no balancing rule is necessary, as in Tanbo.

Tanbo rule sheet:
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Tanbo_rules.pdf

> It seems to work well in the connection games I've played, because
> the badness of a weak move is real, but not a big deal: so your
> stone is out of place, well, you just connect to it the same way. In
> Go, a bad enough move will be really out of place--you'll have three
> corners where you play ordinary sequences, and one corner (or side)
> that just has this ugly dangling stone.

Observation: I'll bet you're a lot more into Go than Hex. To a Hex player, an initial pie move is certainly an "ugly dangling stone".

This is a comparison of lesser evils. In Redstone (or Go) with pie, there's an obvious, ugly move on the board. Without pie, there's a less obvious but greater ugliness. Black dominates the entire game, especially the opening, all of which is then accounted for at the end with komi. YUCK!! Chess is even worse. Player 1's domination is more extreme in Chess, and you have to play enough games in a match for one of the players to get so fogged out that his opponent can break serve. Chess is more a match of endurance than intellect. Chess players *wish* they had komi.

> There's also the question of what stone would be adequate to balance
> the game. It's surprisingly tricky to decide, though it would be
> easy enough if we got a few dozen thousands of games.

There's no hurry. I'll be long dead by the time enough centuries have passed for Redstone to supplant the lesser Go, but at least I can take comfort in knowing it'll happen eventually.

[gemmon]

I keep losing my head in Womack's documentaries. Is there a
screenwriter here hook

--
who left

-- Thor

[gemmon]

On 2/21/2013 9:40 PM, Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:

> Song:
>

Maybe get a set of white wheel tires...