Need help choosing a table board and a vendor
ChiyoDad
inches thick) for our living room but I've never been able to compare
any of the more affordable woods (shin-kaya, agathis, hiba, katsura).
We'd prefer a board that is made of one solid piece of wood (unless
there is a notable disadvantage to this). I've tried to gather as much
information from this group and on the internet but could still use
advice from experienced buyers.
I'm hoping to keep the cost for a complete set to about $180.
Obviously, the stones will need to be glass, yunzi or marble.
Can anyone comment on their boards from www.samarkand.net,
www.yutopian.com or www.go-gamestore.com? How do you like the finish?
How have the boards held-up to the whacking and sliding of stones? How
do you like the grain (or is none visible)?
Also, has anyone sampled wares from some of the new importers on eBay
like Yellow Mountain Imports and KHH Limited?
Anton
The best advice is to stick with Japanese-made products. They are
typically made to a higher standard and built to the traditional
measurements. In other words, the boards and the playing grids are
rectangles, and the stones are always 21.5mm. Chinese and Korean boards
may be well-made, but are often not, and are often not built to the
standard measurements. Of course, some players don't care, or must shop
for the cheapest deal. In the long run, your Go set will last a
lifetime, and may become a family heirloom. With that in mind, buy the
best Go equipment you can afford. You'll always be proud to own it, and
so will the people who inherit it from you someday.
Anton
--------
Anton Ninno, AGA Chapter Rep.
Syracuse Go Club - Syracuse, NY
Mondays, 7-10pm at Dewitt Wegmans
A Chapter of the American Go Association
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syracusegoclub
fcpguru
We'd prefer a board that is made of one solid piece of wood (unless
there is a notable disadvantage to this)<
Laminated sticks are even a veneer is what you will be getting for your
money. That's not a downside, ti all depends on how well they're
crafted. You won't get a solid block for that budget unless you can
find one that is used. That's a great adventure, you can end up with a
wonderfully unique board or just a good buy on the same ol' board
everyone else has. You might also get a piece of junk but that doesn't
happen often that I have heard. Most eBay transactions for used go
equipment seem to be smooth and everyone's happy.
But if this was MY decision, and it's clearly not, I'd spend my money
fine stones, nice bowls and a much less dearly priced slotted board.
You can buy another board later but consider that you spend much more
time with your fingers in your bowls, fiddling with your stones, than
you do touching your board.
Also consider these very original western-style boards:
http://www.boardgamego.com/
I have Dufour's delightfully oddball purpleheart board, it's fabulously
well-made and deliciously massive:
http://boardgamego.com/purple.html
http://homepage.mac.com/bogiesan/PhotoAlbum12.html
Look carefully at kuroki's outlet:
http://www.kurokigoishi.co.jp/online_shop/go/outlet/images/04-09/02-02.jpg
(shell stones chestnut bowls, about $250 including slow boat shipping)
http://www.kurokigoishi.co.jp/online_shop/go/outlet/images/04-09/03-02.jpg
(Shell stones, chestnut bowls, 3/4" board for 30,000 yen, about
$350-ish including slow boat shipping)
david boise ID
Anton
It's not cheap, but it's an nice alternative to eBay.
Shogun's Gallery
http://www.shogunsgallery.com/Go.htm
Anont
ChiyoDad
hoping to keep it close to my budget but I'll take Kuroki into
consideration if I decide to go upscale in quality and cost. If I go
that route, then my materials cost alone would range from $258 to $320.
Of course, I would be getting Hana grade shell stones intead of glass,
yunzi or marble.
I'm still open to lower-cost alternatives if there's any suggestions or
advice that can be offered.
BEAR
The trick is a single piece of wood.
Consider that to get a piece of that size, regardless of thickness, the
wood has to be carefully dried for a *long time* before it is
manufactured. Of course some woods are less prone to cracking than
others, and the ones used for traditional Japanese boards are likely such.
The Korean boards that I have seen for sale typically have a "yellow
wash" over the surface, which to me makes them undesireable.
You *could* consider making your own board, again the trick is mostly
the wood. Making the lines is doable with some practice, the right jig
and "ink." (it's not ink). You need a wood with "closed grain."
I saw a used 5" or so goban on ebay some months back that was obviously
well used somewhere (likely a club) and had stains and some lines worn
out... but one could refinish the surface (gasp!) and redo the lines...
Wish I had the $$ or I would have gone for it myself...
_-_-bear
Bill
If you want something good quality but more affordable, I suggest the 2
inch agathis board from Samarkand. I have found it to be a pleasant,
durable playing surface, and it was only $75 when I bought it several
years ago. It's two pieces joined together, but the joint is
absolutely smooth - it would be indetectable if not for the grain
pattern on the sides and bottom. The top is finished with a color
wash, because agathis is too dark to be used unfinished. But it's not
yellow, rather a pale beige, not at all obnoxious. The wash has worn
with use and now the grain of the wood is showing through. I added
felt-pad feet meant for dining chairs ($1.50 for a pack of 12) to lift
the board slightly off the table - this gives a nicer rapping sound
when a stone is placed.
If you're set on a single piece of wood, then katsura is the only one
of the traditional woods made this way, to my knowledge. It is more
expensive though. I'm not sure about modern substitutes, such as the
beechwood and basswood boards which can be found from some vendors.
Good luck -
Bill
gowan4
one-piece boards around two inches thick are more likely to warp that
boards made from two or three (or more) pieces. The multipiece boards,
if they are well made, are glued together so the seams are invisible on
the playing surdface and the endgrain is placed so that it works
against the warping tendency. I would second the recommendation of
Japanese-made boards but you will have to look around to find a set
within your budget.
Kuroki Goishi Ten at
http://www.kurokigoishi.co.jp/online_shop/english/go/okaidoku/index.html
sells a 4cm. thick hiba board for 14000 Yen, less than $140.
Samarkand at www.samarkand.net sells plastic bowls for $9.00, which you
could use as a stop-gap, and 8mm. glass stones for $24.95. Shipping
costs for all this would be extra..
Another option is the 2" thick agathis board from Samarkand. You may
have to send one or two back due to manufacturing defects but this is a
nice looking serviceable board for under $100 so you'd have enough
money to buy nicer stones and bowls.
Good luck!
ChiyoDad
beginning to lean towards biting the bullet and spending more money for
a set from Kuroki Goishi Ten.
That raises new questions with regards to choosing clamshell stone
grades (Hana, Moon or Snow), stone size (8.8mm to 9.8mm are close to my
original preferences), and, again, wood types (don't know the qualities
of hiba vis-a-vis shin-kaya and katsura). Any advice along these would
be helpful.
Does anyone know how long it takes for their shipments to reach the US
via surface freight (i.e. boat) and how much they charge?
Bill
chestnut bowls, and a 1-inch shin kaya board. Surface mail was about
US$45.00, arrived in seven weeks (to Illinois USA).
I also own a set of snow grade stones 8.4mm, cherry bowls, and a 2-inch
katsura table board, purchased from ishigames many years ago. This is
my favorite board - I like the darker color.
The snow stones are very pretty, but all look more or less alike; the
jitsuyo stones are less refined, but have much variety in grain
pattern. I think a slightly fatter stone, 9.2mm or 9.5mm, would be
ideal.
gowan4
9.2mm, but the first set I bought is 8.0 mm and I like it too. The
price difference between Jitsuyo and Yuki (Standard grade and snow
grade) is fairly large. Actually I think the Jitsuyo grade is fine and
that's what I'd buy, but if you buy moon or hana grade you'll do just
fine. Hiba is a kind of cedar and has a yellow color. Shin kaya is
spruce wood. It tends to have a lighter yellowish color. Katsura is a
darker tan. It will darken a bit over time.
Anton
stones. I've been playing Go since the early 70s, and I've always
thought thin stones were more elegant and easier to hold in the
traditional manner.
Some players worry that thin stones will chip or break when dropped.
That may be true, but what kind of a Go player drops his stones? And
how often will it happen that the stones will be damaged when dropped?
Every new set has a few extra stones, and we all know you don't need a
full set to play. Even so, you can always buy replacement stones as
needed. I've done that for used sets I bought that needed more stones.
No big deal.
So, the real challenge here is to determine your TRUE preference in Go
stone thickness. Don't be suckered into buying more expensive (thicker)
stones that you really like. This preference obviously has a lot to do
with the size of your fingers. Hulk Hogan might need 9-10mm stones.
Try some 4mm, 5mm, 6mm stones, and really take some time to see how the
work on a Go board. And don't believe anyone who tells you that thin
stones are too hard to pick up. That's just silly. If anything, you can
clear a game played with thin stones FASTER than one played with thick
stones. I've owned stones from 4mm to 10mm, and in my opinion, the
extra weight of fat stones is just wasted material. It's all part of
the marketing strategy of Go stones manufacturers to push thicker
stones -- with a higher profit margin.
As for rarity, it's actually much harder to find very thin stones than
fatter stones. So if rarity is something you value, go looking for thin
stones. It's not easy to find a good set of thin stones. I know. I'm
always looking, myself.
I also agree with the replies here who have suggested than cheaper
grade stones with darker and more irregular lines are more interesting
to look at than pure white stones. It's very true. If you like white,
buy top-quality glass stones.
So let's remember, you can never be too rich, or too thin!
Anton
Anton
almost 7 weeks. It's hard to justify the cost of shipping by air. Once
you have the stones, you'll soon forget about the wait. You'll also be
glad you saved money for your next Go purchase.
In this age of instant (and seeminly constant) gratification, waiting
for something special, like Go stones from Japan, is good for your
soul. Not to mention that you'll then be a member of a somewhat unique
group of American Go players -- Kuroki customers.
>From then on, when visitors admire your equipment, you can say, "Do you
like it? I ordered this set directly from Japan; a very fine old firm
named, Kuroki."
Of course, you can still be trumped by the player who actually studied
Go in Japan. Even so, he'll still be impressed that you had enough
interest to buy the real thing.
Anton
fcpguru
You got lots of interesting (and possibly contradictory) advice.
Please drop in again and tell us what you purchased with your money.
david boise ID
ChiyoDad
The decision is to save up for a Kuroki set in the $350 to $450 range.
I'm budgeting $20 for every rank I gain on KGS so my Go fund is now
worth $140. Thankfully, I'm in no rush.
First runner-up goes to the Go Gamestore's 2" Shin-Kaya board and Yunzi
stones (Japanese size, with Jujube bowls). I originally preferred the
marble stones but the Yunzi's are acceptable after a light treatment
with water and oil.
Second runner-up goes to Yellow Mountain Import's eBay auctions of
similar Shin-Kaya, jujube & Yunzi sets.
You can review all of the finalists on my blog at this URL:
http://chiyodad.blogspot.com/2005/09/searching-for-right-table-goban.html
Best Regards,
- ChiyoDad
Zeke
Shipping for my stones was near instantaneous... they were delivered to
Tokyo when I stopped there on the way back from a Taiwan business trip.
I did wait about 4-6 weeks, as they were ordered long before my trip ;)
I got moon grade, size 34 (9.5 mm) stones with the gosu (one of the
special packages).
The stones are quite beautiful. I don't really have much to compare them
to (besides glass), but I assume the black stones are fairly typical.
The shell stones generally have topographical-map like lines far apart
on one end and very close on the other. The obverse side of the stone
have only barely perceptable lines fading to solid white. The graphics
on KGS don't do the real stones justice ;)
I personally do like the heft of the bigger stone. My original set were
the korean glass from samarkand (the slightly smaller end-to-end for the
club set's smaller board). In my opinion, the glass black stone is
fairly comparable to the slate, though the slate is lighter and has a
different sense about it.
In any case, I'm only too happy to be a member of the kuroki club :) I
now just need to find a decent board (which I wasn't about to bring home
on the plane from Japan). I promise myself a floor board at 5-dan, but
perhaps one of the nice table boards from www.boardgamego.com when I
reach AGA shodan (not far off now) - I'm partial to the maple with
bloodwood border, it would fit in our cherry living room.
One thing I'm sure of: I'll be ordering my floor goban from Kuroki when
the time comes.
ChiyoDad
explained the differences between Standard grade, Hana (Flower) grade,
Moon grade, and Snow grade shell stones. I'm not even sure if Standard
grade might be equivalent to either Moon or Hana grade.
Can anyone point me to an online guide or share their opinions?
Anton
Genuine, traditional, Yunzi stones are *preferable* to marble.
I've seen marble Go stones and they're nothing special. Yunzi
stones have more color and texture, and the black stones
really do appear dark green when held to a light. Lovely.
Anton
Zeke
As you can see from the images, a difference lies in the separation of
the shell lines... I believe that other qualities change the grade of
the stone, too - color and flaws. It is probably similar to grading a
diamond.
I'm not sure what "standard" grade is, but it seems likely that it is
the same as Hana.
ChiyoDad
it lies above or below Hana).
All this information will be instrumental in my final choice of a
Kuroki set. I was able to add another $20 to my goban kitty on Sunday
night. (Yay!)
ChiyoDad
subject to significant variations.
While a Kuroki set is certainly on the approach radar, I wouldn't rule
out buying a Chinese Yunzi/Shin-Kaya set as well.
Anton
Every manufacturer has their own standards.
I'm sure the same is true of glass and shell sets.
I noticed the Chinese players at our club taking
a very close look at the Yunzi stones I bought,
They had quite a discussion about them. It's
likely that the Yunzi stones from the two different
vendors you noted are not made by the same
Chinese company, so they may look and feel
somewhat different when compared side by side.
Barry Phease
>>Are there differences in Yunzi stones?
>
> Every manufacturer has their own standards. I'm sure the same is true of
> glass and shell sets. I noticed the Chinese players at our club taking a
> very close look at the Yunzi stones I bought, They had quite a discussion
> about them. It's likely that the Yunzi stones from the two different
> vendors you noted are not made by the same Chinese company, so they may
> look and feel somewhat different when compared side by side.
There is only one genuine source of Yunzi stones and they are extremely
uniform in appearance. Unfortunately there are a number of sources of
fake Yunzi. The fakes are usually pretty obvious if you are used to the
real thing.
--
Barry Phease
Roy Schmidt
> Thanks Zeke! Now we just need to figure out what Moon grade is (and
> if
> it lies above or below Hana).
Moon grade is second only to Snow grade in quality. Both have fairly
straight grain lines, but the Snow grade lines are closer together and
clearer/easier to see. Both are precisely the same color, shape, etc.
Standard grade stones have little or no grain lines visible. Hana
stones usually have curved lines (or none at all), like they are cut
from the edge of a shell.
Cheers, Roy
--
my reply-to address is gostoned at insightbb dot com
-------------------------------------------------
The Bradley Go Association meets Tuesday evenings from 6:30
at Jester's Coffee, 1222 W. Bradley Ave., adjacent to the
Bradley University campus in Peoria.
ChiyoDad
>and they are extremely uniform in appearance.
>Unfortunately there are a number of sources of
>fake Yunzi. The fakes are usually pretty obvious
>if you are used to the real thing.
That's a little disappointing to hear as we'd now have to sort out
which vendors carry genuine Yunzi stones.
I thought I had read somewhere that The Go Gamestore carried authentic
Yunzi stones. Perhaps they're the safest bet for now if one opts for
Yunzi over slate-and-shell.
Anton
players who inspected them told me there are real Yunzi and nice enough
for the price. However, they also told there have seen higher quality
Yunzi stones in China. The problem seems to be that those Yunzi stones
are probably not available in the US at this point. I suppose one
would have to make friends with a Go player who has contacts or family
in China to be able to buy these higher quality stones. On the other
hand, maybe I've been mislead about higher quality Yunzi stones. Barry
Phease says there's only one source, but he didn't say whether that
source offers different qualities of stones. I wonder how he knows
about Chinese Go stones. Hardly anyone I've met knows anything about
them, except for the Chinese players I've met here in Syracuse, who are
all Chinese immigrants.
Anton
ChiyoDad
The bi-convex black Yunzi stone has some barely visible imperfections
on one side which gave me the impression that it did not come from a
clean mold or that it was not finished properly.
The white Yunzi stone had a small piece of foreign matter inside it. It
wasn't visible until I held it up to the light.
None of these were serious defects, IMHO. The price seems to be
reasonable compared to glass stones and one would find these
imperfections unless he or she were looking for them.
Still, it would be very interesting to see what "higher-quality" stones
are like if they do exist. Perhaps I will try to inquire with Carl
Johan Ragnarsson via his blog (http://gongames.com/blog/).
fcpguru
david boise ID
Bill
stones usually have curved lines (or none at all), like they are cut
from the edge of a shell."
This is what most of the vendors' marketing materials say, but it is
not true. I bought a set with standard grade stones from kuroki, and
every stone has visible, straight grain lines. The width, spacing, and
darkness of the lines varies greatly from stone to stone, which I think
gives them added character. A few stones have just one or two lines,
or very faint lines, but always they are there. The only curved grain
lines are on the backs of some of the stones, where normally no grain
is visible (true of moon and snow stones also). When I inspected them
brand-new, I found exactly two stones with tiny chips, and two with a
faint rust-colored tint on the bottom side. So there isn't much in the
way of flaws. Perhaps the vendors just want to sell more of the higher
grades to foreign buyers who don't know better, so they downplay the
quality of the standard stones.
Anton
NIB Chinese Silk GO STONES Jade Quartz Game
Item number: 8703002696
http://cgi.ebay.com/NIB-Chinese-Silk-GO-STONES-Jade-Quartz-Game-120_W0QQitemZ8703002696QQcategoryZ113528QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Anton
Vive...@gmail.com
http://www.ymimports.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=488432
It looks nice and is less expensif than the same thing at other
stores...why is that?? anyone have an idea? what is wrong with it???
I really feel like buying it but it looks to good to be true...
Tibo
ChiyoDad
the Go equipment scene. I haven't received any feedback yet about the
products they sell.
Many of them go for substantial discounts on eBay. Odds are that you
might be able to get them there for 5%-20% less when the auction is
settled (depending on who happens to be bidding).
Anton
listings are for "seconds" with small defects.
I wonder if Yellow Mountain's eBay listings are also for products with
defects. There seems to be a lot of damaged Go equipment around.
At the 2004 US Go Congress in Rochester, New York, one dealer had a
pile of folding, slotted, and solid boards with great discount prices.
As we looked through the pile, we had to check carefully to find the
damage on each one. On some it wasn't bad - a good deal. On others, the
defect was too large and too obvious.
All this gets very subjective, especially when you're on a tight
budget. One man's *horrible* defect becomes another man's cheap deal.
Anton
--------
Anton Ninno, AGA Chapter Rep.
Syracuse Go Club - Syracuse, NY
Mondays, 7-10pm at Dewitt Wegmans
A Chapter of the American Go Association
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syracusegoclub
2nd Annual Syracuse Fall Go Tournament - Nov. 12
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syracusegotournament/
ChiyoDad
additional information about Kuroki's stones on my blog in this post:
http://chiyodad.blogspot.com/2005/10/info-and-collectors-opinion-on-kuroki.html