Okay, just HOW do you study Joseki?
ChiyoDad
Seigen's warning against "joseki poisoning". Against all that, the
study of joseki (like Life-and-Death) still seems to be an important
area of development for a Go player.
I'm 22-kyu on KGS and reading "38 Basic Joseki" (Kiseido Press, by
Kosugi and Davies). Should I be reading other materials that might be
appropriate for my level of understanding and rank? Materials that,
perhaps, extensively elaborate on the "why" behind the josekis?
Also, the list below is the way I **think** I should be approaching the
study of joseki. Any suggestions, supportive criticism or corrections
would be greatly appreciated.
A LOWER-KYU'S INITIAL MUSINGS OF HOW TO APPROACH THE STUDY OF JOSEKI
1. Your opponent may approach your corner positions this way
2. You have x number of ways to respond depending on what you want to
accomplish tactically and strategically
3. For each of these responses, vital points of play emerge (based on
past professional experiences although these might have already been
overshadowed by recent developments in the game by the Koreans)
4. Assuming you play the right vital point AND the conditions around
the board are ideal, then you MAY increase the likelihood of
accomplishment in Point 2
5. Playing or omitting these vital points have favorable/unfavorable
consequences for you and your opponent. You need to understand what
those are and either (a) be prepared to handle them or (b) be prepared
to accept them. Omitting these vital points result in variations.
6. Be mindful of the rest of the board when considering your response.
Modular thinking can result in sub-optimization or disaster.
Thanks and Best Regards,
- ChiyoDad
Pieter Mioch
looks nice and I'm sure the author had the best intentions too :-)
http://gobase.org/studying/articles/mioch/
From here go to "Gentle Joseki" skip the intro and have a look at
the diagrams, the lay-out of which does get better in later episodes.
"ChiyoDad" <Chiy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131634871....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
ands...@gmail.com
the opening and middle-game strategy instead. Read and study "501
opening problems" by Bozulich. If you don't like what happens in the
corners, try playing more conservatively there. Don't get into fights
but try to settle as quickly as possible. If your strategy is superior
you will win easily by playing simple straightforward moves you can
understand.
ChiyoDad
they went beyond the 3rd article.
I remember that the first two articles helped me in three games. I
appreciate you providing the list page.
Robert Jasiek
>I'm 22-kyu on KGS
Study only those joseki that are stable already after at most 8 moves.
Understand in which direction to extend, from which side to approach,
how far to extend, how near to appraoch, when low, when high, why to
play in that corner now instead to tenuki. You do not need any further
knowledge about joseki until you are ca. EGF 15k because it requires
too much tactics. If you understand all about what I have mentioned,
then you would understand already much more about joseki than many
shodans.
--
robert jasiek
Barry Phease
> I heard the proverb's warning against memorizing joseki. I read Go
> Seigen's warning against "joseki poisoning". Against all that, the study
> of joseki (like Life-and-Death) still seems to be an important area of
> development for a Go player.
The warning against memorising joseki applies mainly to those who learn
them and stick to them rigidly. If you always play the same joseki move
in the corner regardless of what is happening on the rest of the board, it
will restrict your development. OTOH if you learn a joseki and play it,
and then replay the game thinking about the development and how it fit in
with the rest of the borad you will improve rapidly.
It is probably best to look up a joseki AFTER you need it. If you get
into trouble in a situation in a game, it makes sense to look up and see
what you should have done. If you really want to understand joseki you
have to play them, but also using a tool like Kombilo to see how
professionals play in similar situations is also helpful.
--
Barry Phease
ro...@telus.net
>I'm 22-kyu on KGS and reading "38 Basic Joseki" (Kiseido Press, by
>Kosugi and Davies).
Don't bother with any other joseki books until you are about shodan.
Just take note of the joseki you see others playing, and the corner
situations that arise frequently in your own games.
>Should I be reading other materials that might be
>appropriate for my level of understanding and rank? Materials that,
>perhaps, extensively elaborate on the "why" behind the josekis?
If you enjoy reading that sort of thing, by all means. But don't
expect it to be a big strength booster.
-- Roy L
Bill Brant
read 38 Joseki
read Davies' Tesuji from the same series
go back to 38 Joseki and notice the tesujis in the joseki
repeat Tesuji (because you will find more ...)
repeat 38 ... and so on.
bill
ChiyoDad
> read Davies' Tesuji from the same series
> go back to 38 Joseki and notice the tesujis in the joseki
> repeat Tesuji (because you will find more ...)
> repeat 38 ... and so on.
Thanks Bill. It sounds like the "lesson plan" that I had posted to my
blog (but it does make sense).
http://chiyodad.blogspot.com/2005/11/lesson-plan-there-isnt-one.html
- ChiyoDad
ChiyoDad
with studying joseki, albeit at a more moderated intensity and with
more realistic expectations on the impact to my playing strength.
Synthesizing Robert's, Barry's (nice to hear from you again!), Bill's
and Roy's counsel, it seems that Tesuji may take precedence over Joseki
(but later the two would go hand-in-hand).
gowan4
Board Thinking in Joseki" or "The Great Joseki Debates" from Kiseido.
At your level these books may be too advanced so I would recommend
using them to augment your 38 Basic Joseki book. From Yang's book you
can learn the answers to Robert Jasiek's questions about the joseki in
your other book.
There is a great interaction between joseki, shape, tesuji, and
positional judgement. Top 9-dan pro's have mastered these things so
well that they don't memorize joseki at all, they just make them up as
they go along. At our weak amateur level we can use our study to
understand joseki to help with those other topics as well.
I find that I do best when I look things up after I have played. If
something seems to have gone wrong, or things didn't turn out the way I
expected in a corner then I look it up in a book and often I learn
something because I have a context for it.
Good luck!
ands...@gmail.com
that I need to study joseki and tesuji. I also believed in vital points
and shapes, etc. I am well past the 22kyu level now and what I learned
in the process is this. You do not need to study joseki or tesuji
beyond the simplest ones you know already (such as snapback, net or
ladder). Studying joseki is like trying to learn French by studying a
French dictionary anyways, you will never learn to speak French this
way if you know what I mean. So if you want to improve your tactics,
you need to improve your reading ability. You do not decide on which
move is good or bad based on your joseki or tesuji studies. You have to
read ahead and then decide, the deaper you read the better; there is no
substitute for reading. Absolutely any shape or move could be a vital
point, you just don't know before you read through. You don't need to
read like a pro to benefit, most 20kyus frequently dont read ahead at
all. They think they can play any crazy tesuji-like move and expect to
get something out of it. Although some people rely on tesuji books and
could be tactically quite all right, they are usually absolutely
incompetent strategically. So in my opinion the problem with 20kyus is
that they understand the strategy very poorly. A basic strategy that a
20kyu needs is very simple and hardly requires any reading. You can
learn it easily and what's more you will understand the purpose and
meaning behind the moves clearly. You will then see that your 20kyu
peers make gross strategic mistakes all the time. So why worry about
some 2 point advantage/disadvantage, which you will get with josekis,
if you can get 20 points by playing well strategically.
ChiyoDad
Theory Made Easy" and "In the Beginning". Both gave me an immediate
boost of as much as 5 stones but some of my matches on KGS seem to have
lately been compromised by ineffectual corner moves on my part (hence
my curiousity about josekis). Admittedly, I had just done one full
reading of both books so perhaps I should go back to them (and perhaps
supplement with Bozulich's problem book).
Reading deeply on the board, ... that's the tough ability that I need
to develop.
ands...@gmail.com
ands...@gmail.com
and death problems. You play a stone in the corner, not because it is
easy to surround territory there but because it is easy to survive in
the corner. Your opponent approaches and threatens the survival of your
corner stone. If you ignore the approach, he may play another approach
from the other side. This makes the survival of your stone difficult.
So the best way to counter an approach is to add another stone nearby.
This makes your group strong. Now your opponent will feel that his
approach stone has become week (if you surround his stone it will be
difficult for this stone to find life). So he will play a stone of his
own nearby. Now with only three moves you both settled and can move on
to other portions of the board. However, strategically speaking
sometimes it is more advantageuos for you to pincer his approach stone,
in other words you counterattack right away. This case is more complex
but it is similar in a way. Now you have to think of the survival of
two separate groups of yours, so it might be best to settle for a
simple exchage and give up one of the stones. But again it is not
josekis but rather life and death that you should be thinking about.
There is a book called "ABC's of attack and defense" that deals with
the subject but it is a little more advanced than "501 opening
problems", so I hesitate to recommend it.
peter allen
are some early sequences that i seem to play regularly...
One danger of learning joseki is that you will play moves not
understanding why you are playing them.
If, on the other hand, you learn why all the moves in a particular
joseki are good and understand lots of the continuations, then you're
no longer KGS 22 kyu! (as robert jasiek suggests, you're more likely
to be a strong dan player)