Let's go back to the real RGG!
Sergio Parimbelli
rec.games.goservers?
Then all flamers could burn one another as they wish and we at RGG could
talk again about other more interesting matters around go.
Please think about it.
Sergio Parimbelli
No, I have no IGS account.
No, I was never banned from IGS.
No, I have no accounts at any other go server.
Yes, I do not like lightning games.
Yes, I plan trying www.itsyourturn.com after the summer holidays. I like
the idea of playing 1-2 plays a day and thinking at ease offline without
worrying about my next phone bill.
peter zandveld
news:3B0236D3...@nikocity.de...
> May I suggest establishing a new NG alt.ihateigs, or more neutral,
> rec.games.goservers?
>
--
peter zandveld
schaak en go winkel het paard
pa...@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~paard
D & A Klinkenberg
&&&
Hello Sergio,
I agree with most of what you say. I haven't tried lightening games,
so I don't know whether I would like them. I have never played go on
any internet server (except IYT). I do not like 'dirty' language or
hearing anyone called names.
However, I don't think a new news group would help much. I think most
of the offenders would post here or cross post to both news groups.
I have played on IYT and suggest that you ignore or allow for the fact
(at the time I played) that it cannot count the score very well after
the game ends. Also allow it plenty of time to update the screen
after you click something. I think most of the go players on IYT are
beginners, so you might want to find someone else who will meet you
there to play. I loved having so much time to make my next move (I
set the time to two WEEKS)
I don't pay extra for being on line. At that time I did use the
telephone (and give busy signal) but now I am on road runner, using
television cable (on line all the time) so I need to try IYT again.
Dan in NY
Ted S.
in <3B0272AA...@hvc.rr.com>:
I believe you can also set up games on the Kiseido Go Server
<http://kgs/kiseido.com> to allow for an 'unlimited' time limit, which
means that one player can go on the server, open the game up, play a move,
and then 'adjourn' the game. I've never tried playing a game in that
manner, though. My rating is low enough that I need all the games I can
get!
Fortunately, a few months back I changed ISPs to one which allows me an
unlimited number of hours a month, so I can play more Go without worrying
about racking up extra access charges. :-)
Not that it helps me play any better, though....
--
Ted, stuck at 23k....
To reply by e-mail, change .spam to .net
Niklas Gidion
> May I suggest establishing a new NG alt.ihateigs, or more neutral,
> rec.games.goservers?
>
> Then all flamers could burn one another as they wish and we at RGG could
> talk again about other more interesting matters around go.
I am (at this moment) a "lurker" in this newsgroup.
I would definitely vote for a new group rec.games.goservers.
Although I have been able to avoid having to read too much of the rants
by using a killfile, I do not prefer this solution.
(I want to read about go - not rants, but I hate to close myself to possibly
interesting posts from the inhabitants of killfiles.)
All those posters throwing around excrements and bringing up the old
stories again and again and again - and posting nearly nothing but
this - and coming to no clear point even after YEARS of abusing r.g.g
for theese discussions...
They made me go away from r.g.g for about 1 year. I do not say this
because I think r.g.g would loose much, if I discontinue to read it.
But I imagine that many (still) silent readers are disgusted by the
ongoing rants (that take up about 50% of all r.g.g-traffic!) - and go away!
Although I have the opinion, that conversations on usenet have to be taken
lightly (see my sig...) I find the amount of flames/rants in r.g.g extreme!
Just my opinion - give them another platform to rant on and make
r.g.g a nicer place again.
Could anybody with experience how to build a new group step forward?
Niklas
P.S.: I let those residents of r.g.g which I had in my killfile out again
- just to follow the whole discussions in this thread.
What is the opinion of the regular flamers concerning a r.g.goservers ?!
Would they migrate (with their posts concerning the servers)?
--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea:
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
(Gene Spafford,1992) -------- enjoy :) -------- niklas...@web.de
Thiele Everett
: Just my opinion - give them another platform to rant on and make
: r.g.g a nicer place again.
: Could anybody with experience how to build a new group step forward?
What you've missed is that this whole server-war affair
is just a performance-art comedy thing. The 'enemies'
are all in bed with each other, sending chummy e-mails
trying to figure out how to make it even more outrageous.
So lean back, pop a brew, and learn to enjoy the very
fine parody being served up for free on this wonderful
group. (it even says something about this in the FAQ
if I'm not mistaken)
best regards,
--Rett
Roy Schmidt
1. Build a "kill" file. Put known constant flamers in it. Put
unwanted threads in it. Put keywords like "IGS/NNGS" in it.
2. Pray every night that these guys find alt.flame and start
exchanging views there instead.
3. More difficult task: Start redirecting offensive posters and
threads to alt.flame, removing r.g.g. from the header.
4. More fun task: Start redirecting offensive posters and threads to
alt.fan.samsloan.
At least if you try the first step, you will suddenly find the
content-to-noise ratio to be much improved.
Cheers, Roy
-------------------------------------------------
my reply-to address is gostoned at home dot com
-------------------------------------------------
Roy Schmidt
Part-time Translator for Yutopian
Full-time Professor of Business Computer Systems
Bradley University
"Sergio Parimbelli" <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote in message
news:3B0236D3...@nikocity.de...
Niklas Gidion
> So lean back, pop a brew, and learn to enjoy the very
> fine parody being served up for free on this wonderful
> group. (it even says something about this in the FAQ
> if I'm not mistaken)
:-)
Nice suggestion.
But to be honest, I am not able/willing to find the ongoing rants funny
anymore. Despite all the fables/parables etc. IMHO the posters even
stopped to be inventive...
And I could find nothing about the server-war in the FAQ (which might
be a good thing after all.)
So my personal solution will be either to fill my killfile again
with the flamers and subjects like "A Flame", "IGS/NNGS" etc.,
or -and this is what I would prefer- to try to get a rec.games.goservers
built up so that the flamers can rant on there and I am still able
to read their reasonable posts concerning go here.
I imagine that perhaps many r.g.g-inhabitants might feel the same.
So I will now ask for their opinion - in another thread.
Niklas
Sergio Parimbelli
first of all, thank you for your constructive suggestions.
Roy Schmidt schrieb:
>
> Dear Sergio,
>
> 1. Build a "kill" file.
It was already there.
> Put known constant flamers in it.
2 were already there. I have to add some more, it seems.
> Put unwanted threads in it.
Good, but if there are no give-away words, I'll get some 20 rantings
before I can kill the thread.
> Put keywords like "IGS/NNGS" in it.
I will.
>
> 2. Pray every night that these guys find alt.flame and start
> exchanging views there instead.
I will.
>
> 3. More difficult task: Start redirecting offensive posters and
> threads to alt.flame, removing r.g.g. from the header.
Great idea. I'll try it.
>
> 4. More fun task: Start redirecting offensive posters and threads to
> alt.fan.samsloan.
Is there such a group?
> At least if you try the first step, you will suddenly find the
> content-to-noise ratio to be much improved.
I hope so.
Cheers, Sergio
Gary Odom
The Kiseido go server is the best 'atmosphere' of go servers
that I've experienced.
People are friendly and games tend to be unrushed.
I have yet to encounter an escaper,
though I have had people lose connection and come back.
Playing on Kiseido is like playing go; IGS is more like pinball with a
wicked tilt.
Gary Odom
"Ted S." <fe...@bestweb.spam> wrote in message
news:90A352829fe...@207.106.92.76...
-
From: "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com>
> Playing on Kiseido is like playing go;
> IGS is more like pinball with a wicked tilt.
I see. Shall you elaborate on why IGS became "wicked" for you?
- regards
- jb
.
Tweedie
"Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com> writes:
>To chime in agreement with Ted:
>The Kiseido go server is the best 'atmosphere' of go servers
>that I've experienced.
>People are friendly and games tend to be unrushed.
>I have yet to encounter an escaper,
>though I have had people lose connection and come back.
>Playing on Kiseido is like playing go; IGS is more like pinball with a
>wicked tilt.
>Gary Odom
Okay, since you mention wicked tilt, let's examine
just a few.
On IGS, Gary Odom is 'kogo'. Some players have
reported to IGS his 'say' messages to them. One in
particular did not speak English, and he sent Gary's
'say' messages to the IGS admins asking for a translation.
Here are the 'say' samples sent to IGS by this player:
kogo say misclick
kogo say please undo
kogo say fuck you
kogo say fuck you jap bastard
The IGS registration letter clearly states that users
should not make communications that are vulgar and obscene.
Here is another sample reported to IGS by another player:
kogo say misclick
kogo say obviously
kogo say fuck you
kogo say piece of shit; here's your game, asshole
There are more, but I think readers get the general idea.
Terry Tozer
news:omnN6.1859$sg2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
> To chime in agreement with Ted:
>
> The Kiseido go server is the best 'atmosphere' of go servers
> that I've experienced.
> People are friendly and games tend to be unrushed.
> I have yet to encounter an escaper,
> though I have had people lose connection and come back.
>
> Playing on Kiseido is like playing go; IGS is more like pinball with a
> wicked tilt.
>
> Gary Odom
>
I go to KGS from time to time. I find it difficult to get a game there and
not as easy to be part of a conversation.
I guess it is like any go club. Maybe it is because I was never "banned"
from IGS so I do not have that badge of honor to be part of the clique
there.
I have been there even when wings Go club and the hag of go supposedly holds
court and still have the problem of finding a game.
On the other hand, I have played on IGS since early 93 and find it easy to
find a game and very friendly place.
Terry Tozer
Satisfied user of IGS since 1993
Alex Papadimitriu
Terry Tozer wrote:
[portions edited out]
> I have been there even when wings Go club and the hag of go supposedly holds
> court and still have the problem of finding a game.
I didn't know who the 'hag of go' was, but now I have an idea. :-)
Before all I knew was what Loch (alias BigDuck) said about her.
He said (quote) "..she is a lousy go player."
> On the other hand, I have played on IGS since early 93 and find it easy to
> find a game and very friendly place.
>
> Terry Tozer
> Satisfied user of IGS since 1993
I'm a satisfied user of IGS too. :-)
Christopher Hudnall
This is just plain sad.There is no good reason to dredge up old dirt
like this and publicize it. More and more, this seems like the
standard treatment that tweet, malf, jumanji, etc. give to anyone
offering a contrary point of view. Shame on you tweet. This isnt the
first time you've responded in a derogatory manner when someone has
offered a positive opinion of another server. You have thousands of
users on IGS, is it really that unbearable if a few prefer to play
elsewhere? That strikes me as rather pathetic.
For the record, I too prefer playing on KGS, mostly for the same
reasons that Gary mentioned, but now I have one more: I'm certain that
Bill Shubert, the KGS admin, isn't saving up everything I say so that
he can try to publicly humiliate me if I happen to say something he
doesn't like.
Chris
--
Yerry Felix
> Okay, since you mention wicked tilt, let's examine
> just a few.
>
> On IGS, Gary Odom is 'kogo'. Some players have
> reported to IGS his 'say' messages to them. One in
> particular did not speak English, and he sent Gary's
> 'say' messages to the IGS admins asking for a translation.
> Here are the 'say' samples sent to IGS by this player:
>
*snip*
Can you please not post kindergarden style obsceneties to this
newsgroup -- if its not okay on your server then its not ok here
neither. I don't care who said it, just who posts it.
cheers,
1i
--
No sig for you!
Bantari
> On IGS, Gary Odom is 'kogo'. Some players have
> reported to IGS his 'say' messages to them. One in
> particular did not speak English, and he sent Gary's
> 'say' messages to the IGS admins asking for a translation.
> Here are the 'say' samples sent to IGS by this player:
<snip snip snip>
Its bad enough that obscenities like this happen on IGS, but must
we also cite it so bluntly here? Would it not be enough to just say that
"Gary uses foul language on IGS" and only quote it literally if he denies
and demands proof? Or at to least append the word "obscenity" to the
thread subject line so the parents of any children reading RGG can set
appropriate filters?
Gary misbehaves, but there is no point stooping down to his level
by making such posts, Tweet. Especially if this really adds nothing to
the actual subject under discussion.
--
________________________________________
-Bantari
e-mail: kapr...@yahoo666.com (remove the 666)
homepage: http://home.san.rr.com/rafgo
Alex Papadimitriu
If he doesn't back a claim with support, people such as yourself will
ask to see the proof or support. :-) It's a no win situation.
Alex Papadimitriu
Interesting Yerry didn't complain when Rich Brown or Choy my used
profanity in this newsgroup. Of course they are both NNGS supporters,
so it must be okay.
Alex Papadimitriu
Look around google. I'm sure you'll find the NNGS and KGS types dredging
up old dirt.
Alex Papadimitriu
Christopher Hudnall wrote:
> offered a positive opinion of another server. You have thousands of
> users on IGS, is it really that unbearable if a few prefer to play
> elsewhere? That strikes me as rather pathetic.
It's not a matter of where they play.
Bantari
(hesp...@pacbell.net) said...
>
> If he doesn't back a claim with support, people such as yourself will
> ask to see the proof or support. :-) It's a no win situation.
Nope. I will never ask to post obscenities on RGG. Or can you
give me any single example when I did it?
Plus - it can be handled differently, for example by dashing-out
the offensive words.
Plus - people like yourself are usually not very keen on providing
"proof and support" for their statements anyways, so what does it matter
if somebody asks?
Christopher Hudnall
> Look around google. I'm sure you'll find the NNGS and KGS types dredging
> up old dirt.
So what? What does that have to do with anything I said?
Chris
--
Alex Papadimitriu
isn't very stable today.
Mr. Hudnall,
I think you misread tweet's article when you said,
"Shame on you tweet. This isnt the
first time you've responded in a derogatory manner when someone has
offered a positive opinion of another server."
I read it as tweet's responding to the negative statement by Odom,
"IGS is more like pinball with a wicked tilt.".
tweet responded to this with,
"Okay, since you mention wicked tilt, let's examine just a few.".
-
From: Yerry Felix <${OneEye}$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
> Can you please not post kindergarden style obsceneties to this
> newsgroup -- if its not okay on your server then its not ok here
> neither. I don't care who said it, just who posts it.
No. You would suggest that the more stringent and disciplined
standards of discourse for commercial IGS chat-channels should apply
to a non-commercial USENET newsgroup. I don't suppose you will find
anybody in agreement with a proposal to hold r.g.g. to those "high
minded" IGS ambitions that already cause so much gnashing of teeth.
When all is said and done, NNGS advocates do not defend free speech.
As for "not posting kindergarden style obscenities" here, why
don't you lead the way by example? If you object so much to Odom's
"Tourette's Syndrome" then what about NNGS makes it "ok" for Odom
to spam continual "kindergarden style obscenities" on racist NNGS?
Your last sentence contained a contradiction, since the one who
"posts it" is already "saying it" through the vehicle of a citation.
Sender: chris@entelechy
> ... This isnt the first time you've responded in a derogatory manner
> when someone has offered a positive opinion of another server.
No. He offered a -negative- opinion of a server, and that's why
detailed circumstances of his story were brought to the light of day.
> You have thousands of users on IGS, is it really that unbearable
> if a few prefer to play elsewhere? That strikes me as rather pathetic.
Not the fact of playing elsewhere (sanctioned and recommended by
the July 1995 IGS "fair play" policy statement) but a fact of Odom's
"critical assessment" post to this newsgroup, brought Odom's secret
propensities forward so that we could all share in Odom's fantasies.
> For the record, I too prefer playing on KGS, mostly for the same
> reasons that Gary mentioned, but now I have one more: I'm certain
> that Bill Shubert, the KGS admin, isn't saving up everything I
> say so that he can try to publicly humiliate me if I happen to
> say something he doesn't like.
Bill Shubert, a fine KGS admin, "deserves to know" about Odom.
I had also noticed that you included material from that original
post to further "humiliate" Gary Odom after indicating one should not.
Brent Locher
"Terry Tozer" <mym...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xjuN6.8578$f85.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> I go to KGS from time to time. I find it difficult to get a game there
and
> not as easy to be part of a conversation.
>
without all your lackeys giving you high fives all the time for rude
behavior that conversation may not be much fun.
> I guess it is like any go club. Maybe it is because I was never "banned"
> from IGS so I do not have that badge of honor to be part of the clique
> there.
>
Well, you can try to be banned /disabled/disconnected/blocked from IGS (it
is pretty easy to accomplish you know) if you feel this is the key to
acceptance on KGS. Rather, I think you go to KGS in the hopes you will be
"disappointed" in order to validate your petty, infantile attitudes about
people you don't agree with.
At NNGS, as well as KGS people gain relationships on the basis of their
abilities to be nice. Name dropping does not count for much at NNGS (and I
assume that to be the case at KGS too).
> I have been there even when wings Go club and the hag of go supposedly
holds
> court and still have the problem of finding a game.
>
Do you realize how incredibly petty that above sentence is. You guys are so
petty, but because you control the [rejecto] button you have lost all sense
of what is petty and what is not.
The "Hag of Go" as you guys can't resist calling her, has established a go
club. What is your problem with that? ( maybe your problem is that being an
official AGA club it might protest the petty garbage that IGS pulls on other
AGA members?) From what I can tell , she helps people new to the game and
tries to teach newbies and encourage them in the game. Who knows, maybe
when they surpass her in strength they may even come over to IGS and play.
Go needs people at all levels you know. Just as baseball needs coaches for
little leagues so does Go.
I find it very hard to believe that if you went to KGS and offered to play
someone and give out a fair handicap as white that you would have any
trouble at all.
> On the other hand, I have played on IGS since early 93 and find it easy to
> find a game and very friendly place.
>
>
I am glad you find it a friendly place. I have found IGS itself to be an
acceptable Go experience. I just resent that they monitor rgg posts (as
reasons to ban/disconnect/block/disable/deregister) , monitor other peoples
websites, keep logs on potential "enemies" to regurgitate at a "convenient
time. Also I resent that they monitor people's relationships with other go
servers (and now apparently other peoples clubs).
Tweedie
>This is just plain sad.There is no good reason to dredge up old dirt
>reasons that Gary mentioned, but now I have one more: I'm certain that
>Bill Shubert, the KGS admin, isn't saving up everything I say so that
>he can try to publicly humiliate me if I happen to say something he
>doesn't like.
Actually this happened last week (May 12), but the person
affected did not notify us about the incident until a few days
afterward.
However, I do save all the complaints users send me. When we
get enough complaints involving the same person, we start to
investigate.
Example:
>From [cut]@home.com Wed Mar 14 06:33:53 2001
To: igs...@panda-igs.joyjoy.net
Subject: reporting a misconduct
Dear Sir/Madam :
I'm one of the faithful user and player of IGS. My user name is
[cut]. The reason I'm sending this Email to you is to report a
misconduct on your highly reputable also well disciplined GO server. The
incident happend on Tuesday,March 13th,around 4 AM. After I beat a
player in a 1/2 game in a decisive fashion,after passes,at the moment
when we were supposed to take out the dead pieces and score the
game,somehow he froze the game and prevent me to do so.Through the chat
window I asked him what is wrong," Good night Hahahahha" was the only
response I got from him.Without think much of it I colsed the game
thought it might be either a bug in my computer or in the server caused
it.Much to my surprise after I log back on the server, I found the game
was added to my adjournment list(I had 6 adjourned games which were all
coused by disconnection from other players"escapers").Again ,without
think much of it I try to colllect my win by reopend it.But as soon as
I reconnected game with him I found the game was lost by time limit
before I even realize what is going on.After sensing something is not
right I went check his record of games.Then I found he had 15 wins and
no loses. By now I think you must have somekind of idea why he had no
loses. I tried to caution other players of his tricks, realizing he is
still on the server playing.Then I was met with his vicious,obscene and
nasty retorts after he saw the massages I broadcasted about him.(there
was one other player"maddax"was also the victim of his low some trick) I
truly hop you people will deal with this problem in a adamant and
decisive manner. So the majority of the rule binding,good behaving
players could enjoy the site as the founder of the site originally
intended. My personal input is"if you want the house clean,you have to
take out the garbage ." His user name is "[edit 1].
Thank you
P.S If it is not too much trouble for you,I would like a feedback
regarding this matter. Thanks again.
>From [cut]@home.com Thu Mar 15 13:11:48 2001
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:17:18 -0500
To: Tweedie <tw...@panda-igs.joyjoy.net>
Subject: Thank you
Dear Tweet,
First I would like to thank you for your immediate and candor response.I
surely can appreciate all the obstinate problems you had to administrate
during last nine years as the original founder of the server while
trying to deal with such in a most fairly and accordingly fashion .In
the process you've made some foes and had your personal reputation
tarnished by those who you've ruled against.I resent that.But have you
ever stop to think about those ones you obligated to and had helped ? I
know some of them had failed you in somewhat ways. Maybe they are just
incapable to back you up or show their appreciation verbally, but I know
for sure they all remembers you as a good administrator. People from all
over the world go to your server to pursuit fair, healthy competition
and leisure amusement, not unprovoked transgression and undeserved
aggravation.Personally I think it is your duty to ensure us that by
using your authoritarian rights to take arbitrary action against those
who deserve.There just no place in your site for player like "[edit 1] ".
The unscrupulous method he used in cheating me and others out of win and
his shameless attitude towards his wrong doing when others and I
confronted him in the chat window. The whole thing was just despicable.
It made my stomach turning for hours. I'm not asking your to do anything
on behalf of my anger for revenge. Because I don't give damn nor angry
about the incident anymore. What I ask of you is to uphold the fairness
of the game for all the other decent players, so no one else have to go
through what few of us had been through. By booting "[edit 1] " out of the
server you will not only achieve that ,but you will also maintain the
site's wholesome image and further ensure the prosperity of it for many
many more years to come. Living life or running a business are just like
playing a game of GO. Some time you have no choice but to give up some
pieces to give you a better chance to win the game, otherwise ...... You
play the game and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Looking
forward to your reply. Thank you.
P.S If it helps to make the matter easier for you. You have my consent
to use our correspondence in any way you see fit. Thanx again.
Yours truly, [cut]
Tweedie wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Usually kids are the ones quilty of this kind of behavor, but of
> course not all are kids. There is a problem for me when dealing
> with problems caused by rotten apples on IGS. If I take action,
> they pose as innocent victims, claiming I am capricious and arbitrary,
> and they publish this in the GO news group called 'rec.games.go'.
> They also tell others the same. Some even lie about their transgression
> on IGS and will fabricate a story that make them appear like the
> victim of the evil tweet. Almost all the people I have helped
> in these situations fail to help and report what really happened,
> and I never hear from them again. Meanwhile I have been cast
> as the monster of IGS and left holding the bag.
>
Tom McDermott
Tweet simply provided proof for his argument, nothing more. Gary had
implied that IGS was a bad place to play, when in fact he simply brought
this on himself. So tweet was simply defending IGS, and rightly so in this
case.
Also, to say, "Gary uses foul language on IGS", really doesn't say much.
That is a general statement that could just mean Gary curses himself
whenever he makes a bad play, or loses a game or whatever, using the s-word.
There are different degrees of foul language. In this case the language was
quite strong and directed at others, and also racist.
Tom
"Bantari" <ban...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15705a59a65cadb1989798@news...
Bantari
said...
> How did tweet stoop to Gary's level by making that post?
Well... in my book when somebody uses such language in private
conversations (he used "say", didn't he), he is pretty low. This is
about Gary.
And you might be right, repeating these selected snipplets of
private conversations publicly for all to see, is not quite the same. So
maybe Tweet did not "stoop down to the same level". But this does not
make it right, does it?
> Tweet simply provided proof for his argument, nothing more. Gary had
> implied that IGS was a bad place to play, when in fact he simply brought
> this on himself. So tweet was simply defending IGS, and rightly so in this
> case.
Tweet did not *defend* IGS - which is a wonderful place and does
not really need defending. He *attacked* Gary by discrediting him
personally, as if this might take away some validity of his statement.
It is called "ad hominem", you know... and is not a valid form of
"defending" anything.
> Also, to say, "Gary uses foul language on IGS", really doesn't say much.
> That is a general statement that could just mean Gary curses himself
> whenever he makes a bad play, or loses a game or whatever, using the s-word.
> There are different degrees of foul language. In this case the language was
> quite strong and directed at others, and also racist.
Agreed. Whoever uses such language deserves what he gets. And
whoever then keeps repeating it publicly - what does *he* deserve?
"Let he who hasn't sinned throw the first stone" (or something
like this).
Brent Locher
"Tweedie" <tw...@joyjoy.net> wrote in message
news:tweet.9...@igs.joyjoy.net...
>
> Tweedie wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Usually kids are the ones quilty of this kind of behavor, but of
> > course not all are kids. There is a problem for me when dealing
> > with problems caused by rotten apples on IGS. If I take action,
> > they pose as innocent victims, claiming I am capricious and arbitrary,
> > and they publish this in the GO news group called 'rec.games.go'.
> > They also tell others the same. Some even lie about their transgression
> > on IGS and will fabricate a story that make them appear like the
> > victim of the evil tweet. Almost all the people I have helped
> > in these situations fail to help and report what really happened,
> > and I never hear from them again. Meanwhile I have been cast
> > as the monster of IGS and left holding the bag.
> >
>
>
I call IGS petty and arbitrary, not because of its dealing with bad behavior
that takes place on IGS but because it
1. monitor the contents of go related websites
2. monitor the contents of posts made to rgg
3. monitors peoples' relationships to other go servers
4. monitors the content of articles people write
5. Often does not correspond with delinquint users in a professional way
And if IGS does not like the contents they
ban/disconnect/block/deregister/disable.
IGS keeps wanting to change the subject to profanity, and rude behavior on
IGS when , to me anyhow, this is not the issue at all.
By the way, this post reveals a very unprofessional, almost whiny tone to
it. I mean ,can you imagine the CEO of General Motors whining in a letter
about how all the people that he has helped have not shown gratitude?
Tom McDermott
> Tweet did not *defend* IGS - which is a wonderful place and does
> not really need defending. He *attacked* Gary by discrediting him
> personally, as if this might take away some validity of his statement.
> It is called "ad hominem", you know... and is not a valid form of
> "defending" anything.
Bantari, have to disagree with this. Tweet did not attack Gary personally,
he simply repeated what Gary had said on IGS. Nor did he discredit Gary,
Gary did that all by himself when he made those statements on IGS.
Tom
"Bantari" <ban...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.157085b0b667897798979c@news...
Bantari
> > Usually kids are the ones quilty of this kind of behavor, but of
> > course not all are kids. There is a problem for me when dealing
> > with problems caused by rotten apples on IGS. If I take action,
> > they pose as innocent victims, claiming I am capricious and arbitrary,
> > and they publish this in the GO news group called 'rec.games.go'.
> > They also tell others the same. Some even lie about their transgression
> > on IGS and will fabricate a story that make them appear like the
> > victim of the evil tweet. Almost all the people I have helped
> > in these situations fail to help and report what really happened,
> > and I never hear from them again. Meanwhile I have been cast
> > as the monster of IGS and left holding the bag.
Tweet - only a very few people think you are a "monster", and they
are so obviously mistaken that such accusations do not really need any
reply or support. Everybody knows what you have done for the Go
community, and this needs no repeating either.
I imagine that the duties of a server administrator, especially as
big, lively, and diverse like IGS, are not easy, and not always pleasant
- and that sometimes you will get bad-mouthed. I do not see how this can
be helped... not all your decisions can be popular with everybody. I
know from my own experience - since not all of your decisions are popular
with me, too.
Sometimes, your decisions might not even be good ones... but this
cannot be helped - we are all only humans, after all.
I still think you should do anything necessary to limit such bad
behaviour on IHS like foul language or cheating. And if some are not
happy about it and attack you on RGG, just read their attacks and use
them as a double-check for the rightfulness of your decisions... If you
then decide that the assaults are just frustrated steam-venting of people
who cannot face their own actions, then just ignore them, as you do. But
maybe sometimes you will find that some of the arguments, even if heated,
might help you deal with the situation better the next time around,
because this is usually where you see "the other side" of the issues.
Thanks for your attention.
Bantari
said...
> Bantari wrote:
>
> > Tweet did not *defend* IGS - which is a wonderful place and does
> > not really need defending. He *attacked* Gary by discrediting him
> > personally, as if this might take away some validity of his statement.
> > It is called "ad hominem", you know... and is not a valid form of
> > "defending" anything.
> Bantari, have to disagree with this. Tweet did not attack Gary personally,
> he simply repeated what Gary had said on IGS. Nor did he discredit Gary,
> Gary did that all by himself when he made those statements on IGS.
I can see your point, and you might be right here - Gary *did*
discredit *himself* by his actions. But he did not necessarily discredit
his *opinion* - and this is what this is all about. Lets deal with the
*issue*, not with the person... this is why I called it "ad hominem" -
attempting to discredit the argument by discrediting the person (or by
showing how the person discredited himself).
To make my point more clear - I liken the situation here to the
following one:
Say I have overheard you cursing somebody on the street, maybe a
driver that cut you off, or something... or maybe nothing, and you just
had a hard day at the office. Now - you come here to IGS and say that
you do not agree with me. And I bring up the obscenities you shouted at
the other driver as some kind of "argument" that what you say has little
merit since you are such a bad person.
Please understand - this is a purely principle-based argument from
me, not any for of defense of people who behave in obscene and racist
ways on IGS or anywhere else - since I think they should all get their
shout/say priviledges taken away for what they do. I just point out that
what Tweet said was not really called for - since this does not add
anything interesting to the discussion, except for repeating obscenities
publicly and starting this little sub-thread.
After all - we do not know if Gary's opinion of IGS was not from
*before* he "discredited himself" and if not his foul language is not a
*result* of being talked to like this on IGS many times - from which his
opinion might originate.
But be it as it may - thanks for your input on this.
Tom McDermott
> I can see your point, and you might be right here - Gary *did*
> discredit *himself* by his actions. But he did not necessarily discredit
> his *opinion* - and this is what this is all about. Lets deal with the
> *issue*, not with the person... this is why I called it "ad hominem" -
> attempting to discredit the argument by discrediting the person (or by
> showing how the person discredited himself).
I understand your point. But this was not an isolated incident, it appears
to be repeated behaviour from the same person. So I don't think you can
really separate the issue, and the person, in this case.
In your post in the related thread above, you mention that "tweet's posts
carry much more weight than MY Choy's" or words to that effect (can't
remember exactly). Maybe I don't understand correctly, but in a sense is
that not ad hominem to a certain degree? Cheers.
Tom
Bantari
said...
> In your post in the related thread above, you mention that "tweet's posts
> carry much more weight than MY Choy's" or words to that effect (can't
> remember exactly). Maybe I don't understand correctly, but in a sense is
> that not ad hominem to a certain degree?
Hehe... is it? It is certainly not the way I meant it. What I
meant was that Tweet is a much more respectable person that Choy, and
thus his words are followed by more people... and taken more seriously.
This is all...
If you wish, this was a "ad hominem" compliment. :-)
Tom McDermott
Tom
"Bantari" <ban...@mynet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1570b295264432089897a1@news...
Terry Tozer
> Well, you can try to be banned /disabled/disconnected/blocked from IGS
(it
> is pretty easy to accomplish you know) if you feel this is the key to
> acceptance on KGS. Rather, I think you go to KGS in the hopes you will be
> "disappointed" in order to validate your petty, infantile attitudes about
> people you don't agree with.
>
Actually i first went to KGS to play in the Wings winter tournament. and als
to play in the AGA Chapter tournament.
> At NNGS, as well as KGS people gain relationships on the basis of their
> abilities to be nice. Name dropping does not count for much at NNGS (and
I
> assume that to be the case at KGS too).
>
Never once did I say who I was or try to name drop. this is an out right
lie!
>
> I find it very hard to believe that if you went to KGS and offered to play
> someone and give out a fair handicap as white that you would have any
> trouble at all.
I have sat on KGs for 30 minutes offereing to play anyone and everyone with
the correct handicap and generous time limits but still no game.
Tuomas T Korppi
: Yes, I plan trying www.itsyourturn.com after the summer holidays. I like
: the idea of playing 1-2 plays a day and thinking at ease offline without
: worrying about my next phone bill.
The itsyourturn pace of playing is fun. The only problem is that
they use an automated scoring algorithm that seems (according to my
not-so-vast experience) to be quite flawed.
--
http://www.helsinki.fi/%7ekorppi/ TUOMAS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small problems are more nuisance than big ones, because you must solve
the big ones, but you may learn how to live with the small ones.
to...@corning-cc.edu
snip.....
>Do you realize how incredibly petty that above sentence is. You guys are so
>petty, but because you control the [rejecto] button you have lost all sense
>of what is petty and what is not.
>
I realy just noticed the infantile attitudes in the above. Are you the one who
is posting as Big Duck, Gee talk about infantile attitudes.
snip...
Terry Tozer
Satisfied IGS user since 1993
Terry Tozer
snip....
>Well, you can try to be banned /disabled/disconnected/blocked from IGS (it
>is pretty easy to accomplish you know) if you feel this is the key to
>acceptance on KGS. Rather, I think you go to KGS in the hopes you will be
>"disappointed" in order to validate your petty, infantile attitudes about
>people you don't agree with.
>
I realy just noticed the infantile attitudes in the above. Are you the one who
is posting as Big Duck, Gee talk about infantile attitudes.
snip....
Michael Alford
>is pretty easy to accomplish you know) if you feel this is the key to
>acceptance on KGS. Rather, I think you go to KGS in the hopes you will be
>"disappointed" in order to validate your petty, infantile attitudes about
>people you don't agree with.
>
This is rich! The person that gave us Big Duck/Slow Turtle/Easter egg
hunts/I want tweet to be my father, lectures us about 'infantile attitudes'?
I had to wipe my eyes before I could type... Always did like to start out
the day with a smile.
Brent Locher
lets discuss some issues.
Let's start with your "favorite"
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered person - Terri.
Do you think that in her case she was
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered because of articles she
has written? If not for articles then why?
After you give a reason that you think she was
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered can you comment on
whether you think this is good Policy for IGS to do so.
Terry, lets just talk specifics and lets start with Terri ( I have about 20
others indidviduals I would like to discuss the specifics of their being
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered too). ( I just realized
why you might not like her! - she stole your name - THIEF!)
Question 1. Do you think she is
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered or has recently been
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered ? ( a simple yes or no
would be nice)
Question 2 Why do you think she has been
banned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered ?
(a simple sentence or two would be nice)
Question 3. If you cannot answer question 2 then do you think IGS has
informed her in a straightforward manner as to why she has
beenbanned/blocked/disabled/disconnected/deregistered ?
Question 4. Do you think IGS is engaging in good policy in
banneing/blocking/disabling/disconnecting/deregistering Terri?
( a simple yes or no would be nice here)
Would you please answer these questions without name calling and making
attacks on others?
(please don't bring in other individuals, lets just start with her).
If your defense of IGS is sure, you should be delighted to answer these
very straightforward questions.
After Terri maybe we can go on to another individual. But lets stick with
her for now, especially since you are so fond of talking about her.
"Terry Tozer" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:bc9O6.1738$r4.8...@www.newsranger.com...
Gary Odom
about Gary Odom or anyone else.
I would have considered it bad form,
as well as beside the point.
Tweedie's point was to discredit me, not by reason or logical,
but by emotional appeal.
"He swears: he must be bad and stupid,
his comments bear no merit",
Tweedie would like to write.
I'm sure Tweedie would like to tell my mother.
Thin gruel to make a point, in my opinion.
Obviously, Tweedie felt defensive.
So, in reply,
please allow me a few comments of defensiveness myself.
As to my sometime objectionable erstwhile comments on IGS:
I cannot justify my remarks.
In retrospect, I regret them.
No apology, I still think them well deserved.
But I have decided to change tack as an outcome.
Thanks, Tweedie, for throwing me off IGS.
I consider what you did to be appropriate.
If I were in your position,
I would have written a warning email first,
but you have your way.
And I decided to alter my behavior when
I encounter unsportsmanlike conduct,
to just resign and move on.
So, Tweedie, you made a positive difference to me,
and for that I appreciate what you did.
But I do hope you translated those remarks to
the Japanese fellow I made them to, so he had
some chance of a glimmer of understanding
that he had offended me by his behavior,
and I intended to offend him in return.
Using a client that makes it easy to misclick,
and having an opponent who refuses to undo an obvious misclick
do not justify obscenity.
Just because an opponent refuses to undo an obvious misclick,
there's nothing wrong with that, is there?
It's just a game, no reason to vent. (Ambiguity intended.)
(Just in case anyone wondered, I tended to give undo for
misclicks. Not always, and sometimes I'd ask whether
someone wanted an undo when they didn't ask. I was
trying to get a good game. What was I thinking?)
I enjoy language, expressiveness, and swear regularly.
I feel no need to justify obscenity any more or less
than any other expression. Oops.
As to being racist, yes I am.
More accurately, I'm a culturalist.
I'm a white American who
grew up in a white-black integrated south,
lived in Japan three years,
traveled in the East, and
was married to a Japanese woman for 15 years.
My reading of history is fairly extensive.
I have observed, enjoyed, made fun of, and disparaged
cultural traits repeatedly, and continue to do so.
Along with sex, religion, crime and politics, culture is one of
the pillars of humor.
Alas, I confess, I find tremendous entertainment value
in human diversity.
I freely distribute Kogo's Joseki Dictionary
to hundreds of people worldwide, regardless of
nationality, culture, race, creed, whatever.
I find truly objectionable discrimination of opportunity based
upon cultural heritage.
If the bloke who wouldn't undo the misclick
wrote me asking for the dictionary, I'd send him the dictionary with
the same cheery note I send to everyone, and hope he'd enjoy it.
Yeah, I know, I'm a mess.
I've struggled with the appropriate response to what I consider
bad behavior.
I don't normally indulge in personal exposure,
so pardon me. But since this came up,
I figured I could give some entertainment value
to readers of this thread.
So once again, pardon me for joining in.
I think I missed the point.
Gary Odom
"Tweedie" <tw...@joyjoy.net> wrote in message
news:tweet.9...@igs.joyjoy.net...
>
> "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com> writes:
>
> >To chime in agreement with Ted:
>
> >The Kiseido go server is the best 'atmosphere' of go servers
> >that I've experienced.
> >People are friendly and games tend to be unrushed.
> >I have yet to encounter an escaper,
> >though I have had people lose connection and come back.
>
> >Playing on Kiseido is like playing go; IGS is more like pinball with a
> >wicked tilt.
>
> >Gary Odom
>
>
> Okay, since you mention wicked tilt, let's examine
> just a few.
>
> On IGS, Gary Odom is 'kogo'. Some players have
> reported to IGS his 'say' messages to them. One in
> particular did not speak English, and he sent Gary's
> 'say' messages to the IGS admins asking for a translation.
> Here are the 'say' samples sent to IGS by this player:
>