KGS and escapers
Dan Stromberg
Warp
> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
No. (And there will probably never be.)
The only measurement in KGS against escapers is that if they have too
many unfinished games they will lost their rank (ie. they get a [-] as
rank) and won't be able to play rated games until their amount of
unfinished games decreases again.
--
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}// - Warp -
Patrick Bridges
> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
As far as directly helping the opponents of escapers, there's nothing
specific that I'm aware of. The problem is that if you start making
arbitrary adjudications of the result of a game, you're occasionally
going to make someone lose because they had a bad connection, not
because they escaped. KGS hasn't been willing to do this - the general
principle is that the result of a game should be decided by the
players over the board, not by some other arbitrary (and potentially
error-prone) policy.
That said, there are mechanisms on KGS to place negative pressure
against escaping. For example, if a person has "too many" unfinished
games (the definition of too many has been given before, but I don't
remember it off the top of my head - it's on sensei's), they are
removed from the rating system. This prevents an escaper from being
able to use escaping to inflate his rank or to mess with the rating
system in general.
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Peter van Rossum
Dan Stromberg <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> wrote:
>Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
There is. Just complain loudly in the "English Room" that Xyzz is
an escaper. Friendly sympathizers will join your game and agree with
you that Xyzz should be quartered, drawn and hanged. They will help
you get over the shock and get you back on track to playing a new game.
--
Peter van Rossum, <pet...@nmsu.edu> | Universal law of linearity: for all
Dept. of Mathematics, New Mexico | f : R -> R and for all x, y in R:
State University, Las Cruces, NM, USA. | f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y)
WR
> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
I like the solution to this problem they have at Wing Go Server.
Get back in time or lose the game, altho I think 10 min might be kinder than
5 min.
wr
Hans-Georg Michna
>Dan Stromberg <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> writes:
>> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
>As far as directly helping the opponents of escapers, there's nothing
>specific that I'm aware of. The problem is that if you start making
>arbitrary adjudications of the result of a game, you're occasionally
>going to make someone lose because they had a bad connection, not
>because they escaped. KGS hasn't been willing to do this - the general
>principle is that the result of a game should be decided by the
>players over the board, not by some other arbitrary (and potentially
>error-prone) policy.
>
>That said, there are mechanisms on KGS to place negative pressure
>against escaping. For example, if a person has "too many" unfinished
>games (the definition of too many has been given before, but I don't
>remember it off the top of my head - it's on sensei's), they are
>removed from the rating system. This prevents an escaper from being
>able to use escaping to inflate his rank or to mess with the rating
>system in general.
Patrick,
one problem is that some "players" use denial of service attacks
to make their opponents disconnect. The effect is that you click
on the board, but no stone appears. Eventually you have to
disconnect, so your opponent wins.
It is stupid, as their inflated rank will only make them lose
even more often, but apparently some players don't grasp that.
You can actually detect this when you look at the stored games
of such a player. You will find several games where the opponent
disconnected, often all of them. Try it the next time it happens
to you---it is interesting to see.
But this doesn't help you much against the delay to get back to
your fair rank.
Hans-Georg
--
No mail, please.
Hans-Georg Michna
>Dan Stromberg wrote:
WR,
this doesn't help, as I described in my preceding message. They
use little tools to run a denial of service attack on your IP
address or on the server, spoofing your info, so you can no
longer play. You click on the board, but no stone ever appears.
So eventually you have to disconnect or lose on time.
Christian Gruen
>
> one problem is that some "players" use denial of service attacks
> to make their opponents disconnect. The effect is that you click
> on the board, but no stone appears. Eventually you have to
> disconnect, so your opponent wins.
I have never heard of such a thing. AFAIN KGS doesn't disclose
the IP addresses of the players to their opponents. I don't
know if other servers do this. But if attacks like this existed
i doubt these people would be in the business for a long time.
Many users have firewalls installed on their computers
which can easily identify the attack and log the origin IP. The
rest would be a case for the abuse department of the attackers ISP.
james
"WR" <don_camillo25@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l8Lob.173702$bo1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I agree. IGS also has something similar to this but the time allowance is
probably a few days.
The other guy talked about IP address attack. IP address attack: first of
all, it is illegal, secondly, it is not easy to perform even if you know
your opponent's IP address, third, KGS does not disclose information about
users' IP address. So the chance that there is someone using this tech. to
win game on KGS is very close to 0.
james
Roy Schmidt
> one problem is that some "players" use denial of service attacks
> to make their opponents disconnect. The effect is that you click
> on the board, but no stone appears. Eventually you have to
> disconnect, so your opponent wins.
(1) DoS attacks are not so easily executed, especially when your
opponent has no idea what your IP address is. It is more likely that
you are experiencing netlag, a common phenomenon.
(2) You disconnect, but your opponent does *not* win on KGS. Your
opponent only avoids the loss of a few rating points (and denies you
the gain).
(3) It's only a game. Play another with someone else. In the long
run, the missed opportunity to gain a couple of rating points will
have no significance on your rank.
Cheers, Roy
--
my reply-to address is gostoned at insightbb dot com
-------------------------------------------------
Roy Schmidt
Part-time Translator for Yutopian
Full-time Professor of Business Computer Systems
Bradley University
Hans-Georg Michna
I extrapolated from other gaming servers where such things
occurred, but I see that you are right that on KGS you cannot
find out your opponent's IP address (unlike other real-time
gaming servers where the gaming connection is direct and the
server only maintains some thin control).
If so, I would like to support the proposal that a game is held
for a certain time when a player disconnects. The clocks could
be halted, at least in byoyomi. To prevent abuse, the clocks
should only be halted for up to, say, three disconnects, or only
three disconnects should be allowed before the game is decided
in favor of the other player.
Steve Fawthrop
that you are a better person than your opponent.
"Dan Stromberg" <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.31.12...@dcs.nac.uci.edu...
-
> "Dan Stromberg" <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> wrote:
>> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
From: "Steve Fawthrop" <soem...@nowhere.com>
> ... You get the satisfaction of knowing
> that you are a better person than your opponent.
What's this about being "a better person" than others?
I read nothing about that in the gaming rules, nor in any of
the documentations for the Go Servers. Were Steve's remarks
merely the demented digressions of a "fake admin" from KGS ?
- regards
- jb
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Chris Schack
Patrick Bridges <bri...@cs.unm.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>That said, there are mechanisms on KGS to place negative pressure
>against escaping. For example, if a person has "too many" unfinished
>games (the definition of too many has been given before, but I don't
>remember it off the top of my head - it's on sensei's), they are
>removed from the rating system. This prevents an escaper from being
>able to use escaping to inflate his rank or to mess with the rating
>system in general.
And if somebody escapes from a free game - so what? It just means
you have a game in the resume list, and can't look it over. Really,
not even that, if you resign instead of closing.
Chris Schack
Chris Schack
Whenever I lose connection to KGS, it takes me several minutes to return.
The first few attempts just don't work...
Chris Schack
B Towey
> There is. Just complain loudly in the "English Room" that Xyzz is
> an escaper. Friendly sympathizers will join your game and agree with
> you that Xyzz should be quartered, drawn and hanged. They will help
> you get over the shock and get you back on track to playing a new game.
lol, that's what I do. It works too. :)
Fu, Ren-Li
> Dan Stromberg <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> wrote:
> > Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
>
> No. (And there will probably never be.)
The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides them will
become the most popular go server in the world.
-frl
-
>> Dan Stromberg <stro...@dcs.nac.uci.edu> wrote:
>>> Is there anything in place on KGS to help opponents of escapers?
> "Warp" <wa...@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
>> No. (And there will probably never be.)
"Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
> The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides
> them will become the most popular go server in the world.
Hmmmm. That was a rather -interesting- remark. :-)
Now I wonder just what exactly the "Panda Patrol" does, anyway.
- regards
- jb
Hans-Georg Michna
>The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides them will
>become the most popular go server in the world.
Ren-Li,
which wouldn't actually be all that difficult for games that are
already reasonably far progressed. Just use one of the better go
programs like GnuGo and let it finish the game.
Depending on how much one player is ahead of the other, the game
could be considered a draw or a win.
Michael Goetze
> The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides them will
> become the most popular go server in the world.
I suppose you're volunteering to be one of the reviewers? ;)
Seriously, though, I think it should be possible to implement something
like this on KGS. The main reason, as far as I can see, why wms has not
done so so far is that he does not want the admins to be swamped with
work. Well, booting power has been successfully delegated to assistants
- it should be possible to delegate unfinished-games-review power to
someone as well.
I already know of some cases where assistants have discovered possible
cheating, then reported this to admins who deranked the cheaters. The
main problem with doing this for escapers, is that it is impossible to
see an unfinished rated game between two other people. (E.g. it's hard
for me to tell the difference between an escaper and someone who just
has a bad connection.) Perhaps if some mechanism could be put in place
here, more escapers could be punished.
But really, I think the amount of fuss made about escapers is far
greater than the problem they pose. The damaged done to the rating
system is limited since people who escaped too often will be
automatically deranked, and sure it's not fun to be escaped on, but come
one, you know you won, the escaper knows you won, so just get on with
life, er, I mean, playing go. ;)
Regards,
Michael
--
This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.
-- Winston Churchill
Tweedie
>> The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides
>> them will become the most popular go server in the world.
> Hmmmm. That was a rather -interesting- remark. :-)
> Now I wonder just what exactly the "Panda Patrol" does, anyway.
The "Panda Patrol" adjudicates questional games on IGS, and it is
composed of a group of pro players.
Chris Lawrence
> automatically deranked, and sure it's not fun to be escaped on, but come
> one, you know you won, the escaper knows you won, so just get on with
> life, er, I mean, playing go. ;)
What happens to the game in your Resume list? Does the person who
escaped automatically lose after a set period, if so, if it was a rated
game does it count?
--
Chris
Patrick Bridges
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Michael Goetze wrote:
>
> > automatically deranked, and sure it's not fun to be escaped on, but come
> > one, you know you won, the escaper knows you won, so just get on with
> > life, er, I mean, playing go. ;)
>
> What happens to the game in your Resume list? Does the person who
> escaped automatically lose after a set period
No. Games on KGS have to be decided by the players themselves.
-
>> "Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
>>> The first go server who reviews escaped games and fairly decides
>>> them will become the most popular go server in the world.
> Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
>> which wouldn't actually be all that difficult for games that are
>> already reasonably far progressed. Just use one of the better go
>> programs like GnuGo and let it finish the game.
tel <tel....@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> I think I prefer to wait the 15 days that IGS requires before giving
> me a win, than have the result of my game randomised by a computer
> program.
You have assumed that your connection was not bad, or that
you were not forced to adjourn when called away by much more
pressing and immediate concerns from the "real world" out there.
- regards
- jb
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Chris Lawrence
> > What happens to the game in your Resume list? Does the person who
> > escaped automatically lose after a set period
>
> No. Games on KGS have to be decided by the players themselves.
In that case I am inclined to resign such games and let the escaper have
their precious win.
--
Chris
-
>>> What happens to the game in your Resume list? Does the person
>>> who escaped automatically lose after a set period
> Patrick Bridges wrote:
>> No. Games on KGS have to be decided by the players themselves.
Chris Lawrence <new...@holosys.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> In that case I am inclined to resign such games and let the escaper have
> their precious win.
As with the case of "tel" you have assumed that you were not the
escaper. Obviously, if people follow your advice you would escape.
- regards
- jb
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Patrick Bridges
*Nod* - I've been known to do that before. I've also resigned handicap
games in person before when I was clearly ahead and the person I was
giving a high handicap kept trying to (unsuccessfully) swindle me
instead of just ending the game. If they care that much about the win
as opposed to having an enjoyable game in which they learn something,
I'll let them have it.
-
> Patrick Bridges <bri...@cs.unm.edu> wrote:
>> I've ... resigned handicap games in person before when I was clearly
>> (unsuccessfully) swindle me instead of just ending the game. If they
>> care that much about the win as opposed to having an enjoyable
>> game in which they learn something, I'll let them have it.
You're missing the point of gaming, however, which is to
offer disincentives to swindlers. Furthermore you're effectively
rewarding swindling behavior rather than putting a -stop- to it.
You claimed (in parenthesis) that the person -was- unsuccessful
at swindling efforts, yet by your action you rendered it successful.
"tel" <tel....@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> I've resigned a won game when an opponent demanded a wholly
> unreasonable undo and would not continue. There's nothing quite
> like the moral high ground :-)
Nothing was "moral high ground" when cavitating to opponents
who make unreasonable demands. Your "won game" was apparently
the consequence of a mouse-misclick, amounting to your cheap thrills.
Perhaps KGS will make you one of their administrators, or assistants, or
accomplices, if they have not already done so... In each case (above)
there seem to be misimpressions that "moral high ground" means losing.
Maybe (another) viewing of _Lord_of_the_Rings_:_The_Two_Towers_
(now in DVD) will educate your opinions concerning -essential- points
with respect for "homeland security" and/or "national defense" options.
- regards
- jb
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Fu, Ren-Li
news:boo5eb$mo5$1...@yggdrasil.glocalnet.com...
You finally took my syggestion tweet! I'm honoured. :p
-frl
Hans-Georg Michna
> You're missing the point of gaming, however, which is to
> offer disincentives to swindlers. Furthermore you're effectively
> rewarding swindling behavior rather than putting a -stop- to it.
> You claimed (in parenthesis) that the person -was- unsuccessful
> at swindling efforts, yet by your action you rendered it successful.
Maybe not. When somebody wins games undeservedly, his rank
rises. The result is that he will lose more games than he wins
in the future, which is not pleasant.
-
> "Tweedie" <tw...@xunil.fi> wrote:
>> The "Panda Patrol" adjudicates questional games on IGS,
>> and it is composed of a group of pro players.
"Fu, Ren-Li" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote:
> You finally took my syggestion tweet! I'm honoured. :p
Don't flatter yourself. You did not establish the date by
which the "Panda Patrol(s)" began their operations. Perhaps
this occurred prior to when you married that old hag of yours.
- regards ( with an unlimited -killfile- license )
- jb
-
> jazze...@coolmail.com (-) wrote:
>> You're missing the point of gaming, however, which is to
>> offer disincentives to swindlers. Furthermore you're effectively
>> rewarding swindling behavior rather than putting a -stop- to it.
>> You claimed (in parenthesis) that the person -was- unsuccessful
>> at swindling efforts, yet by your action you rendered it successful.
Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote:
> Maybe not. When somebody wins games undeservedly, his rank
> rises. The result is that he will lose more games than he wins
> in the future, which is not pleasant.
Why would that somebody not win games undeservedly in the
future, as well? I think you are posing two contradictory problems.
- regards
- jb
Big Duck
Big Duck
PS I hate slow turtle and Wily Mr. Skunk too!
"Patrick Bridges" <bri...@cs.unm.edu> wrote in message
Chris Schack
The last escaper I played was an odd case. He just said I played weird
and took off ... I admit, there was a lot of fighting on the board, but
it wasn't THAT bad!
Chris Schack
Hans-Georg Michna
>The last escaper I played was an odd case. He just said I played weird
>and took off ... I admit, there was a lot of fighting on the board, but
>it wasn't THAT bad!
Chris,
hehe, funny! I find that overaggressive attacks on me usually
lead to lots of splinter groups, but it's not really my fault.
If the opponent constructs safe groups, then there aren't many
cuts or running groups, but if he makes wider jumps than he can
actually support, then I have to jump in, right?
I find that it is one way to win over some players to construct
so many cuts and splinter groups that a less experienced player
loses oversight. I actually don't like that much, but it's an
ability a good player should have.
Yesterday I played a game in which essentially there were only
two groups, white on one side, black on the other. I won by a
few points. :-) The game had not much more than 100 moves in the
end and just these two large areas.