Italian Go - the latest twists
Niall
representatives' decisions, I attach here a letter I sent last summer
to the members of the European Go Federation. This letter is a
response to one from the FIGG (extensively quoted here),
and I think it is self-explanatory.You will see that the FIGG
wanted the 2002 decision that Italian Go representatives had
to be selected by both FIGG and AGI revoked.
Shortly after this letter was sent, the EGF held its AGM, and
decided ... to do as the FIGG requested. Italian Go
representatives are now chosen only by the FIGG.
You are invited to draw your own conclusions.
Neil Mitchison
================================================
Dear EGF members,
I note that the FIGG has sent a letter to you, attacking the AGI and
apparently suggesting that the EGF intervene in Italian Go. Before
going into the substance, allow me to point out two matters of form:
- firstly, they did not send a copy to the AGI. Even in the FIGG's
strange world view, I would have thought that people are entitled
to know the accusations made against them.
- secondly, they do not even name the AGI, merely referring to "a
small group of players". However, nobody in Italy was fooled by
this.
Now to come to the substance, which has a distressing number of
half-truths and outright falsehoods.
> The EGF has established, and is still actively keeping among
> Italian players, the perception that there are in Italy two recognized
> organizations, thus creating confusion among new players, and
> problems to the authority of the Federation.
Of course there is only one *recognised* organisation in Italian Go:
the FIGG. Everyone knows that. The problem to the authority of the
FIGG is that there are, and have been for six years now, two
well-supported and active organisations. The FIGG has failed to
attract the support of about half of the active Italian Go players,
and here it is blaming the EGF for this self-inflicted blow to its
authority.
> The motion regarding selection to european events, which we
> believe to be very damaging to Italian Go, but that we have applied
> in an act of goodwill, has had the only result to push towards
> division, and prevent official Italian participation in most EGF events.
Not exactly.
1) The FIGG has NOT applied the EGF motion. The motion invites
the FIGG and AGI to select representatives jointly. The AGI has
now written to the FIGG nine times asking for such a joint selection
to be set up. The FIGG has never even offered the courtesy of a
straight reply. So in addition to treating the EGF with contempt, the
FIGG is being discourteous - and indeed less than honest, in
that they refuse to admit what they are doing. This is the FIGG's
'goodwill'?
2) In only two international events has there been no Italian
participation. In one case, the European Pair Go 2003, this was
because the FIGG organised the qualifying event so belatedly that
only one couple turned up; when this couple, nominated by both
FIGG and AGI, turned out to be unable to participate, there was no
replacement couple available.
In the second case, the Toyota Oza 2004 competition, the EGF
Executive, having received initial nominations from FIGG and AGI,
wrote to both organisations to underline the importance of selecting
the strongest representatives. The AGI took heed of this request,
and modified its selection to choose a strong FIGG player; the
FIGG angrily refused to do so.
> The Italian Federation, which represents the vast majority of
> Italian Go players, is a democratic organization fulfilling all
> requirements of the EGF, and is open to all.
Wow - after only 7 years it is possible to assert that the FIGG is a
democratic organization! Of course, to assert this is not quite the
same thing as to prove it. For "the vast majority" see below.
> Since the past allegations, there have been two elections for the
> renewal of the board, and all new candidates that have come forward
> have been elected in the new boards. The constitution and
> regulations of the Federation have been rewritten in 2001, the
> regulations modified also in 2004, to make them always more clear,
> and with the expressed aim to avoid any possible
> problem or misunderstanding.
The "past allegations" referred to in passing here were indeed a
serious matter, and those who were active in international Go at
the time will remember well the facts (not allegations). But this is
not the moment to go into them in detail: suffice it to say that
today's Executive (which still looks remarkably like the old
Executive - the Secretary has not changed since 1989!) still
refuses to acknowledge that anything improper was done.
And while there is no doubt that the modified constitution and
regulations are an improvement on the old ones, you shouldn't really
expect too much: for example, the FIGG has retained the power
(exercised in the past) to throw out a member for making statements
criticising the Executive, whether or not these statements are true.
> There are very clear sets of rules regarding all selections for
> international events and the association's internal life. There's a
> well established point system for participation in the WAGC, and
> simple rules, based mainly on rotationand strenght, for all
> international selections. Obviously, all members of the Federation
> are eligible for selection, and the selection procedures are open
> and published.
Rules there certainly are, 43 pages of them! Unfortunately the
Executive does not obey them. But then they can rely on a provision
which states that the Executive's decision cannot be challenged
save in the AGM. So the rules don't matter.
> Since years the EGF is providing to a small group of players not
> registered in the Italian Federation the same benefits of the
> National Association that represents the vast majority of italian
> players.
Ah, now we come to the AGI. Go on, FIGG, try: you can say the
word "AGI" and it won't hurt! AGI members have the "same benefits",
do they? The AGI has had to start from scratch and buy all its
equipment, has received no grants from any international organisation,
has not been invited to organise any international events, and yet it
flourishes, organising training weeks and weekends, tournaments,
and an open Italian championship! This is what the FIGG really resents.
And you may need some help interpreting the terms "vast majority"
and "small group" as used by the FIGG. The FIGG membership list
remains a secret - only available on request to FIGG members - but
if we judge by their published classification we do indeed find lots
of names. We find, for example, 45 members at 28th kyu, several of
whom have been at the same rating for years. It is correct, and
indeed admirable, to extend the benefits of FIGG membership to
these people, but can they be described as active Go players?
If we try and see the really active Go players, for example by
consulting the EGF database, we find, time and again, that down to
any level of strength above about 15 kyu, the numbers of AGI and
FIGG players are roughly similar. In 2003, the last year in which
AGI and FIGG both held Italian championships, the AGI-organised
open championship had 48 participants, the FIGG one 41.
That is quite an achievement for a "small group" in opposition to
the FIGG's "vast majority"!
> This is unfair, not democratic, and has the only effect of promoting
> non-registration.
It is interesting to see the FIGG's definition of "democracy": a
decision by a majority of EGF members is not democratic if the
FIGG disagrees with it. If we use a more conventional definition of
democracy, we note that the only effort in this process to bypass
democratic procedures has come from the FIGG itself, when it
threatened a lawsuit against the EGF, as well as insisting on a
roll-call vote to identify the individual representatives who had
dared to vote against the FIGG, perhaps to take legal action
against them personally.
> There can be only one EGF recognized Organization per country,
> but the EGF keeps much more strict contacts with a non-EGF
> member organization than with the Italian Federation.
I'm not aware of these "strict contacts" - could we have some evidence?
> Several biased things have been written in these years also by the
> Swedish delegate, who, because of personal reasons, strongly
> supports this group of players by being one of their oldest and most
> politically active members.
Oooh! And the Swiss delegate of 2002 was heard to make some
cutting remarks too! What does the FIGG want the EGF to do
about this, smack their hands? Or are they going to try the
"sanctions" route again? Last time, they got zero votes for their
motion calling for sanctions against the Swedes for being nasty
to them - try again, FIGG, and maybe you can double that!
> Any problem in Italy would have already been solved long ago,
> by a democratic process, if the EGF had clearly indicated which
> the recognized organization is, and just invited those who are
> not yet members to register.
Did you know the EGF was so powerful? An invitation from the
EGF would suddenly have convinced all the AGI members who
were disgusted by the undemocratic maneouvrings of the FIGG
Executive? And somehow such an invitation would have made
the FIGG Executive behave democratically?
> All players can register in the Federation and democratically
> decide the Italian Go life.
Well, Italian players are indeed democratically deciding Italian
Go life - "voting with their feet" is the expression.
> Sadly, there is a minority that, encouraged by the EGF
> behaviour, does not bother to register and candidate, since
> they can easily get more benefits in a non-democratic way,
> such as, for example, a selection process that will not apply
> the fair and equitable rules chosen by the General Meetings
> of the Italian players.
Sorry, I think the FIGG means "General Meetings of the FIGG
players". There has never been a General Meeting of Italian
players. Indeed, this is something many people, both within and
outwith the FIGG, have called for: a general meeting of ALL Italian
players, with satisfactory guarantees against manipulation, to
create an Italian Go Association which is run by an Executive
chosen by Italian Go players. Nobody doubts this is the way to
create a unified Italian Go Association. However, when this
request came up at the AGM of the FIGG the Executive refused.
I can't imagine why.
> Personal likes and dislikes of the EGF board or delegates should
> not influence the application of EGF own rules. There is an Italian
> recognized Member Nation. If the EGF has any complaint, or
> problem, this can, and should, be addressed to the Italian
> Member that can give all explanations and clarifications needed.
Yes sure, the IGF tried that and see where it got them! The FIGG
angrily refused to answer, and attacked the IGF for even raising
the question, pointing out that it was entirely an internal Italian
matter who they selected for an IGF tournament, what lies they
told about the selection process, and who they decided to expel for
having told the IGF what had happened.
> Looking forward to meeting you all at the 50th European Go
> Congress in Rome (Frascati).
The first European Go Congress ever which has been organised in
the teeth of the local Go club - go on, have fun.
*****************************
Looking at this letter overall, what is striking to me is that for the
first time the FIGG is even admitting that there is a split in Italian
Go. Of course, they accept no responsibility for it: it is all the
fault of a "small group", supported by nasty foreigners, who are
disturbing the peaceable and democratic life of the "vast majority".
Now this is some progress when compared to the way the FIGG
pretended to the EGF mediators in 2001 that there was no
problem at all in Italian Go. But the FIGG's only solution is "leave
it all to us: we will ignore the AGI, only FIGG members will be
eligible to represent Italy, and everybody will be happy (well, at
least everybody of any significance)." In other words, give us
complete power over organised Italian Go, but don't expect us to
take any of the responsibility for the state it is in.
Now, I am sorry, but even the FIGG cannot really believe -
whatever they write - that giving total power to the FIGG would
induce AGI members to join the FIGG. After all, that was the
situation from 1999 to 2002, and very few AGI members joined
the FIGG then. So what they are actually calling for is the
permanent exclusion of AGI members from international Go.
And that exclusion would suit the FIGG fine. Indeed the FIGG
has gone out of its way over the last few years to make very clear
their hostility to AGI members: quite apart from the expulsions
which started the story, AGI members have been threatened with
expulsion, have been invited by the Secretary of the FIGG at the
AGM to leave the FIGG, and have been threatened with physical
violence. It is hard to avoid the deduction that permanently
excluding the AGI players is not just an unfortunate consequence
of what the FIGG are calling for, but actually their principal aim.
The question for the EGF is: are you willing to play along with this,
or are you so ashamed at the behaviour of your Italian member
that you are willing to do something about it?
Neil Mitchison
(ex-President of the AGI, writing in a personal capacity)
ian
Niall wrote:
> With the objective of keeping Go players informed of their
> representatives' decisions, I attach here a letter I sent last summer
> to the members of the European Go Federation. This letter is a
> response to one from the FIGG (extensively quoted here),
> and I think it is self-explanatory.You will see that the FIGG
> wanted the 2002 decision that Italian Go representatives had
> to be selected by both FIGG and AGI revoked.
>
> Shortly after this letter was sent, the EGF held its AGM, and
> decided ... to do as the FIGG requested. Italian Go
> representatives are now chosen only by the FIGG.
>
> You are invited to draw your own conclusions.
>
making decisions on international selection. However it has been quite
some time since I looked at this. I have no idea how the associations I
am a member with voted on the motion actually.
However I am suprised by this email because I udnerstood that relations
between the two organisations were improving - they share the same Vice
President now do they not?
q...@omen.ru
> Congress in Rome (Frascati).
The first European Go Congress ever which has been organised in
the teeth of the local Go club - go on, have fun.
What does it mean?
By the way, will they set any cash prizes for the winners?
ian
I am not sure what this means or how valid it is. However it sounds
like they are saying this is the first ever European Go Congress
organised by the local club (perhaps by the local club alone?).
http://www.figg.org/clubs-ita.html doesn't seem to list Frascati to me,
but I may be missing it.
I understand that unless the EGF provides cash prizes there will be
none.
"b Rome 2006
Their flier presented, but low cost accomodation not yet sorted out.
They are expecting 500 with a weekend peak, but have no plan for
any prize money. Saijo will be there.
"
Niall
but I cannot imagine what makes anyone think that relations between the
two organisations are improving.
2) The two associations were indeed invited to work together in
selecting representatives - see the letter to understand how the FIGG
treaed that request.
3) "in the teeth of" means "against the determined opposition of". The
Go Club of Rome, well-established, has declared publicly its opposition
to holding the Go Congress in Rome.
ian
Niall wrote:
> 1) Giancarlo Angeloni is indeed Vice-President of both associations,
> but I cannot imagine what makes anyone think that relations between the
> two organisations are improving.
Well I'm sorry, but i don't understand a lot of things about the
conflict ;-)
>
> 2) The two associations were indeed invited to work together in
> selecting representatives - see the letter to understand how the FIGG
> treaed that request.
Yes I have read through that part again, I see my memory was at fault.
>
> 3) "in the teeth of" means "against the determined opposition of". The
> Go Club of Rome, well-established, has declared publicly its opposition
> to holding the Go Congress in Rome.
Interesting, I am still in two minds as to whether or not to attend the
congress - does this mean nobody from Rome will attend?. It would be
nice to see a little of what was planned at least anyway :(
Nick Wedd
The 2006 European Go Congress is to be held in Frascati. Frascati is
the seat of a suburbicarian bishop - the seven suburbicarian bishops are
bishops of sees near Rome, and are automatically members of the College
of Cardinals. From 1761 to 1807, the Cardinal Bishop of Frascati was
Henry Stuart, heir of the Stuart claim to the English and Scottish
thrones. Stuart supporters regarded him as King Henry IX and I.
Nick
--
Nick Wedd ni...@maproom.co.uk
henricb...@gmail.com
> Interesting, I am still in two minds as to whether or not to attend the
> congress - does this mean nobody from Rome will attend?. It would be
> nice to see a little of what was planned at least anyway :(
I can easily state my personal reasons for not playing in this
year's EGC, in case anyone is interested.
his was relatively
innocent, but I don't like having lied thrown at me in a serious
meeting
and th
I've attended 11 of the last 12 European go congresses.
I also have friends in Rome, in Frascati too actually.
Still, I won't play in this one and will keep away from Frascati,
unless there are any compelling reasons for me to show up
at the EGF meeting.
My reasons are the following:
The organiser has a hostile relation with the Roman go club,
and the split in Italian go started about 7 years ago with roman
players being tricked and locked out from the meetings of the
Italian go federation.
The 2006 congress was given to Italy 1999 on false premises, as the
organiser claimed that in Italy it is necessary to decide a venue
for such an event at least 4-5 years in advance, plus
some irrelevant drivel about the winter olympiad. In reality he was
just keen on having the 50th EGC. You may think te early decision on
Italy messed up the procedures in EGF for
deciding on the EGC:s for many years. Although it is not in the minutes
of the EGF AGM in 1998, the AGM made the extraordinary decision that
a financial plan for the EGC 2006 should be presented at least 4 years
in advance, but none came of that. In 2001 the organiser told the EGF
AGM that he was about to sign a contract for the EGC venue and
complained
that he would already have done so if it hadn't been for the nasty
discussions in the EGF. That was obviously a lie, since the site was
not
decided until two years later.
As far as I can tell the EGC 2006 is organised as a private enterprise
by
one single individual, whom I consider an arrogant liar. I haven't seen
any
signs of an organising team, except for a kind of advert a year or two
ago,
where the organiser in his characteristic manner asked for "slaves".
The information policy about the EGC seems to have been to keep
everybody in the
dark as much as possible and as long as possible.
Finally I suspect that congress funds will be used in one way or
another
to recruit personal friends and supporters for the organiser. It is
hard to
substantiate this allegation/suspicion, since the arrangement is and
will remain
completely non-transparent to outsiders, but I don't want to run any
risk myself of contributing in any way.
Having said this, I do of course hope that those who feel up to it to
participate in Frascati will have a good time. Rome has much to offer,
obviously.
Frascati is a nice place, more elegant than lively perhaps, overlooking
the
plain where Rome can be guessed through the haze. The price level in
Frascati
is above Italian average and I don't expect the accommodation to be
cheap,
but I know at least one or two restaurants in Frascati where one can
eat
fabulously at moderate price. It is probably a nice idea to bring your
own car
or rent one, as there are many nice places around to go and see. As
Fulvio
pointed out, the last train from Rome to Frascati is at around 21, I
think there is
also one to another station around 23 if you are prepared to walk a
couple of
kilometers in the dark; but with car you can also take advantage of
numerous
evening events in Rome.
best regards,
henric
henricb...@gmail.com
displaced towards the beginning. If there is any sufficiently
interested reader, he shouldnt have any problem to
figure out the original sequence I suppose :-)
cheers,
h.
denis feldmann
a representative of the Mediterranean ligue) for a general French
boycott of the Congress (which is actually a pity, as Frascati is a
delicious place) As the FFG is in somewhat difficult admistrative times,
I will suggest this officially only at or after the next extraordinary
meeting, due in mid-february; I also intend to ask our
representative(s) to the EGF why we were not informed about those matters
Robert Jasiek
<denis.feldm...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>If this should be of any help, I plan to ask (in my personal name and as
>a representative of the Mediterranean ligue) for a general French
>boycott of the Congress (which is actually a pity, as Frascati is a
>delicious place) As the FFG is in somewhat difficult admistrative times,
>I will suggest this officially only at or after the next extraordinary
>meeting, due in mid-february; I also intend to ask our
>representative(s) to the EGF why we were not informed about those matters
Dou you just follow rumours? You should rely on facts.
--
robert jasiek
ian
denis feldmann
make you believe the many reports (during all those years) of Henric
Bergsaker, for instance, were only rumors?
Robert Jasiek
I do not speak about the past but about the current EGC. I cannot
judge about the past (and I have not seen conclusive evidence either).
Suspicision is not guilt.
--
robert jasiek
richard mullens
I don't know what other people think - but for me - and I guess the Eastern europeans - and maybe also young people, the most
important consideration is cost.
OK - I can afford 14 days at 50 euros (if that's on offer) - but I baulk at it. Give me the tatty bedrooms and informal setting
of Prague or Marseille any day with the inexpensive beer in preference to a swanky hotel with carpeted reception. Budget is
what I'm after. And immersion. I don't want the players spread geographically. I guess that I just miss my student days ;-)
Niall
are quite a lot of those in my original posting. More can be found on
the AGI mailing list, where the AGI has published all correspondence
to and from the FIGG. What further facts would you like?
Having said that, I have unfortunately heard this statement time and
again from FIGG representatives as a way of trying to prevent people
from judging them on their deeds. (It is usually accompanied by
something along the lines of "it is all very complicated, it would take
me hours to explain, and by the way I will do my damnedest to ensure
that the other side doesn't get a chance to speak to you".)
Alas, the facts are there, and they are MOST inconvenient for the FIGG.
Neil
Robert Jasiek
>I agree entirely that judgements should be made on facts. I think there
There are facts about the past. However, one cannot conclude that just
because mistakes were done in the past the same mistakes will be done
in future, too. It is a matter of opinion or belief. If other people's
opinions shall be influenced, then it is valid to state the mistakes
of the past, however, it is premature to ask everybody to come to the
conclusion that necessarily the same mistakes would be done in future.
If you want to influence people, you should tell them that they might
make their own predictions.
About the present, the facts appear to be (if what has been stated as
facts here is true) that FIGG does not cooperate with AGI or the Roman
go club. It is valid to inform others about that, however, one does
not need to draw the same conclusion. It can be considered efficient
if all the organisation of the EGC06 lies in one hand or it can be
considered too much work in only one hand.
Concerning the finances of the EGC06, the claimed possibility is their
abuse while their transactions remain hidden. If one thinks that the
EGF should have the right to supervise (this does not necessarily mean
control) of every EGC's finances, then put up such a motion. AFAIK,
currently the EGF does not have that right. If so, then blame the EGF
if finances of EGCs remain hidden to the ordinary go player. - Another
thing is the principle possibility of criminal cheating with moneys of
an EGC. If you should have strong grounds for such, then the regular
courts are open for your request. However, it is improper to call an
organization controlling the finances of an EGC criminal just because
it does control them. If you want to influence other people, then you
should not convey your suspicion as proven facts. Everybody should
form his own opinion whether some suspicion is bad rumour or likely
fact.
--
robert jasiek
ian
Soletti in the Congress Newsletter from the last EGC in Italy visible
at
http://www.figg.org/euro96/cnews/issue5/gionata.html . Interestingly
the pages proclaim he holds the copyright to these newsletters, even
though they are not produced by him, but a volunteer team which worked
independently of the organisation.
but the quotes ...
"So here are my reasons for suppressing the rapid and introducing the
blitz: More freedom and less 'totalizing' organisation. Of course
there were other reasons: Clash with pro's, timing, human resources.
But the main problem was a dislike for scheduled days. Well after this
week I can say I failed and I have to admit I was wrong. So I am sure
that the next organisers will suppress the blitz and reintroduce the
rapid, and all will end well...
"
a vote for freedom in organisation?
"
Well, all (or most) of you have been at the Prizegiving and so all will
have an idea about it. Since I have received some criticism about it I
would like to state my reasons for: 1. No money prizes.
2. No prizes for the main tournament and 4 wins in the weekend
tournament.
The argument about money prizes is long but can be summarised in some
points:
We in Italy are against money prizes because we feel that we are
amateurs and not professionals and so we should play to 'enjoy' the
game and not to win the prize. This point could be further developed in
the fact that by giving money in prizes we would encourage and support
a kind of semiprofessional player who (in our eyes) has still no roots
in Europe, so we would in our eyes help to create an unadapted person
(for our society).
Furthermore in this congress (as has been pointed out in the EGF
meeting) we have taken some strategic decisions which have used up the
budget we had. These decisions were a strong support to professionals,
(we hope) nice and good free drink to all, nice (again we hope) gadgets
at registration.
Finally the reason against money is not only the fact that we are
amateurs but a preventive action against people who register below
their actual strength in order to win prizes. As with the money also
the reason for prizes can be summed up:
If you win 5 or 4 games your reward will probably be a promotion, and
what better prize is there for a go player?
Before giving money to people who win many games, you must make the
assumption that they are correctly rated to start with (or else we have
cheating problems). And if this assumption is right why should we
reward 5 and 4 wins and not 0 or 1 win. Are not the former going to get
a promotion and don't the latter risk a (possible) demotion? And if
so who has a better attitude in De Coubertain's eyes?
"
This one is more interesting, previously I believed the reason was
purely legal. This suggests it is merely because of personal
preference. I wonder, do AGI tournaments have cash prizes?
Niall
boycott was based on rumours not facts. I pointed out that I
had just presented a great many facts, and you dismiss those
as being in the past. So your argument has changed: it is not
that Denis's call is based on rumours, it is that the facts on
which it is based are in the past and therefore, I suppose,
are not good reasons for boycotting the Congress.
I think people can decide for themselves whether the past -
and indeed continuing - behaviour of the organisers in general
is a reason for attending the Congress or not. But it seems to
me perfectly reasonable to base such a decision on disgust
at the untruths told by the organisers in order to hold the event.
denis feldmann
> On 23 Jan 2006 01:30:09 -0800, "Niall" <Neil.Mi...@jrc.it> wrote:
>
>>I agree entirely that judgements should be made on facts. I think there
>>are quite a lot of those in my original posting. [...] What further facts would you like?
>
>
> There are facts about the past. However, one cannot conclude that just
> because mistakes were done in the past the same mistakes will be done
> in future, too. It is a matter of opinion or belief.
For instance, it is possible that you suddenly stop being interested in
arcane rules debates, and start writing your (long-awaited) books on
joseki analysis, fuseki principles, and so on. Is is possible
If other people's
> opinions shall be influenced, then it is valid to state the mistakes
> of the past, however, it is premature to ask everybody to come to the
> conclusion that necessarily the same mistakes would be done in future.
Previsions are always a delicate and uncertain matter, especially when
made about the future.
> If you want to influence people, you should tell them that they might
> make their own predictions.
>
Why? We didn't forbid them that, did we?
> About the present, the facts appear to be (if what has been stated as
> facts here is true) that FIGG does not cooperate with AGI or the Roman
> go club. It is valid to inform others about that, however, one does
> not need to draw the same conclusion. It can be considered efficient
> if all the organisation of the EGC06 lies in one hand or it can be
> considered too much work in only one hand.
Its not only a metter of efficiency, but of promises made...
>
> Concerning the finances of the EGC06, the claimed possibility is their
> abuse while their transactions remain hidden. If one thinks that the
> EGF should have the right to supervise (this does not necessarily mean
> control) of every EGC's finances, then put up such a motion. AFAIK,
> currently the EGF does not have that right. If so, then blame the EGF
> if finances of EGCs remain hidden to the ordinary go player.
As usual, responsibilities add for instance, if some individual
disappear with the funds of his national assocition (because the
treasurer didn't have the means to control this) , his personal
responsibility and the one due to lack of proper control in the said
ssociation statutes are not mutually exclusive...
- Another
> thing is the principle possibility of criminal cheating with moneys of
> an EGC. If you should have strong grounds for such, then the regular
> courts are open for your request. However, it is improper to call an
> organization controlling the finances of an EGC criminal just because
> it does control them. If you want to influence other people, then you
> should not convey your suspicion as proven facts.
He didn't
Everybody should
> form his own opinion whether some suspicion is bad rumour or likely
> fact.
>
Said suspicion concern (possible) future actions ; it is hard to prove
that (but it could be too lte after the facts...)
Robert Jasiek
<denis.feldm...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>it is possible that you suddenly stop being interested in
>arcane rules debates, and start writing your (long-awaited) books on
>joseki analysis, fuseki principles, and so on.
More likely, I might put less time on rules research to put more time
on continuing to write those books, but probably not before February
14.
--
robert jasiek
denis feldmann
Robert Jasiek
<denis.feldm...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>> February 14.
>Of which year?
http://groups.google.de/group/rec.games.go/msg/bfab055e4fd2c890?dmode=source&hl=de
--
robert jasiek
Big Duck
You are an ingrate!
So many ingrates out there. FIGG brings go to Italy. They are first. They
feed you like a mother feeds all of you from her very own breast. And what
does FIGG get in return?
It is the same old story:
A selfless leader comes along and forges a path through the jungle so
everyone can find the way. Then along come the ingrates and thieves and
spoilers. Criticize , criticize, criticize.
You shall find that being a pariah is your only and just reward.
I hope that not only are you banned from European Go, but that you are
banned from Europe altogether. Take you and your pack of indepedently
minded gorillas and go to Libya or Outer Mongolia. And for goodness sake,
I hope you don't make an account on server maximus!
Sincerely,
Big Duck
PS Go is too bog in Italy - we need to thin the ranks
PS #2 of course they will set up the tournament in the teeth of the enemy -
duh!
"Niall" <Neil.Mi...@jrc.it> wrote in message
news:1137595675.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Avatar DJ Flux
> Niall,
>
> ...
>
> A selfless leader comes along and forges a path through the jungle so
> everyone can find the way. Then along come the ingrates and thieves and
> spoilers.
Very funny...
Pity that Mr. Soletti didn't forge any new path: Italian go already
existed we he suddenly appeared on the scene.
There were two big clubs, Milan and Rome, and other small ones around
Italy, accounting to some 100 players, more or less. An Italian
representative had been invited to the WAGC for some ten years already.
International torurnaments hed been held already.
When Mr. Soletti was given the post of Secretary of the newly founded
FIGG he launched his tenure with the slogan "2000 players in the year
2000".
16 years later, in 2006, there are four big clubs, Milan, Rome and two
territorially-spread "clubs" in Center and North-East Italy, plus other
small ones accounting to some 200 players, more or less.
Only one strong player has emerged since then (the other strong three
were already playing in those times).
One player has been expelled for reasons never well explained (that
makes 0.5% of the Italian players... :-)
The Italian go world is broken in two pieces, and objectively no
solutions can be foreseen in the short term.
In normal life a manager with such results would have been given the
sack long ago... But we Italians must be masochistic.
Fulvio Savagnone
Go Club of Rome "Fujisawa Shuko"
henricb...@gmail.com
Avatar DJ Flux wrote:
> In normal life a manager with such results would have been given the
> sack long ago... But we Italians must be masochistic.
>
> Fulvio Savagnone
> Go Club of Rome "Fujisawa Shuko"
That's a theory!
Actually some kind of explanation would be interesting. I've been told
on various occasions that similar conditions as in go prevail in many
italian national organisations. I doubt that italians are more
masochistic than others though. Just speculating, I would look in some
other directions, like these perhaps:
There appears to be a great deal more servility in Italy than in many
other societies, my guess linked to the ancient patronus-client system.
It was common in ancient times that Fearless Leaders, patrons, gathered
each their own clan of clients. The clients supported their patronus
and helped him to stay in power in return for protection and other
favors that he could give them. That kind of structure was very
important everywhere in Europe from antiquity through the middle ages
and left remnants right into modern times, although it gradually faded
away when it became easier for individuals to support themselves on
their own and they felt more protected for instance by a strong state..
But I believe many would agree that more of the old patronus-client
system survives in Italy than e.g. in northern Europe. Italians depend
more on friends and family in their daily life than many other
nationals. So, I suppose that a comparatively large fraction of
italians feel comfortable with supporting an arrogant Fearless Leader
in return for personal favors, where people elsewhere would be ashamed
to behave that way.
Maybe italians are more used to Fearless Leaders, or "barons" as they
are sometimes called in Italy, they can see that an arrogant liar is in
power but they find that a pretty normal state of affairs, so they
don't care much, they shrug their shoulders and just get on with their
lives and won't be bothered to do anything about it.
It certainly looks like italians have a bit of a predilection for
dishonest and arrogant Fearless Leaders with noticeable clownlike
qualities. Just look at Italian premier Berlusconi. I don't recall ever
talking to any italian who openly admitted supporting Berlusconi.
Still, it's obvious that many italians do support him in elections.
Maybe they find it to be to their personal advantage, or they think
he's funny, or they secretly admire him for cheating and manipulating
so cleverly? Quite a number of other
clownlike and arrogant leaders in italian history easily come to mind,
from Cola di Rienzo to Benito Mussolini.
Maybe in Italy there is a larger supply then elsewhere of daddys boys
who don't have anything more important to do in life than to exercise
absolute power in some little community they happen to find with a
couple of hundred members, for personal fulfilment?
Maybe italians are more lazy in dealing with organisational matters and
are happy to leave everything to some energetic Fearless Leader year
after year? Mind you, the italian go dissidents have been far from
lazy, they have very active since they got out of the Figg grip,
organising many splendid events and activities, even set up the
excellent European Go Database for the benefit of all European players.
I'd be curious to see other possible explanations for the phenomenon.
Anyway, if Big Duck wants to further develop his career in teaching
Fearless Leadership he should certainly study in Italy. They have
solutions working there since ages, which DB can only dream of!
regards,
-hb
P.S. I should add that although I do not approve of the above mentioned
aspects of Italian society, there are fortunately innumerable
advantages with Italy too... so on the whole italians enjoy an
excellent quality of life!
P.P.S. You will have to sack him eventually of course.
Hans Kloss
The problem is not in the creating of a chiefdom but in multiplicity
of them. In principle it may be even beneficial to have many different
organisations. That is as long as no money is at stake and as long as
none of the chiefs starts to pretend that he is the chief-boss
as is in this sad case. Even worse that international bodies got
involved and did not react to this mess. That is a pity.
>
> Maybe italians are more lazy in dealing with organisational matters and
> are happy to leave everything to some energetic Fearless Leader year
> after year? Mind you, the italian go dissidents have been far from
> lazy, they have very active since they got out of the Figg grip,
> organising many splendid events and activities, even set up the
> excellent European Go Database for the benefit of all European players.
>
>
> I'd be curious to see other possible explanations for the phenomenon.
>
> Anyway, if Big Duck wants to further develop his career in teaching
> Fearless Leadership he should certainly study in Italy. They have
> solutions working there since ages, which DB can only dream of!
Thou shall beware of thou wish as thou may get it.
//
henricb...@gmail.com
Hans Kloss a écrit :
> The problem is not in the creating of a chiefdom but in multiplicity
> of them. In principle it may be even beneficial to have many different
> organisations.
That's true and it's an interesting point.
If you look at the development in Italy over the years
( go to the statistics tool in EGD:
http://lnx.agi.go.it/EGD/Stats_Country.php
and select Italy),
you can see that the number of active players in Italy doubled after
the split occurred in january 1999. The number of organised tournaments
also doubled and there were many new activities that don't show in
those statistics too. The Italian go historian Franco Pratesi describes
what happened like this in his book on Italian go history:
"With the split, a more or less open competition started, to win new
groups for the friendly side. In short, Italy had been transformed into
a go-ban for a large scale game. There were a number of cities where
Figg and Agi were practically racing to promote go and help the players
to improve." [1].
Unfortunately it doesn't look like that stimulating effect is as active
now as it was in the first years, the development looks more stagnant
today.
>That is as long as no money is at stake and as long as
> none of the chiefs starts to pretend that he is the chief-boss
> as is in this sad case. Even worse that international bodies got
> involved and did not react to this mess. That is a pity.
There is a problem when the selections for sponsored events are
monopolised by one organisation, that tends to conserve the split I
believe, based on the arguments I outlined in a letter to the EGF last
year:
http://www.figg.org/cgi-bin/view.cgi?id=205&dName=speakers_corner
Now the international organisations have decided once again to put the
selections completely in the hands of Figg and we will have to wait and
see what the results of that can be over a few years.
best regards,
henric
[1] F. Pratesi, Panorama storica del go italiano, Aracne, Rome 2005, p.
246,
translated and quoted in my article on European go development in the
Nordic Go Journal, number 2 of 2005, pp. 25-30.
The latter article can be downloaded in pdf format from:
http://homepage.mac.com/bjornwendsjo/go/index.html
carn...@gmail.com
out
an answer to this question :
* do the minutes of the figg include a list of the people present on
the
AGMs, and the proxy votes?
* if true, where can they be accessed?
* if true, do the proxy votes correspond to people listed on the EGF
rating list?
carn...@gmail.com
> The 2006 congress was given to Italy 1999 on false premises, as the
> organiser claimed that in Italy it is necessary to decide a venue
> for such an event at least 4-5 years in advance, plus
> some irrelevant drivel about the winter olympiad.
i attended the EGF AGMs where these claims were made, and
i can confirm this is true. the EGF minutes should confirm this
> In reality he was
> just keen on having the 50th EGC. You may think te early decision on
> Italy messed up the procedures in EGF for
> deciding on the EGC:s for many years. Although it is not in the minutes
> of the EGF AGM in 1998, the AGM made the extraordinary decision that
> a financial plan for the EGC 2006 should be presented at least 4 years
> in advance, but none came of that. In 2001 the organiser told the EGF
> AGM that he was about to sign a contract for the EGC venue and
> complained that he would already have done so if it hadn't been for the nasty
> discussions in the EGF. That was obviously a lie, since the site was
> not decided until two years later.
that is also true. in 2002, the FIGG could not say in what
resort or city the 2006 EGC would take place. so therefore,
they lied to the EGF AGM in 1999.
what is also shocking is how some *countries* representatives
don't give importance to these lies. one could start wondering
whether the FIGG has talked to them
henricb...@gmail.com
carn...@gmail.com wrote:
> all these years with the italian soap opera, and i still can't figure
> out
> an answer to this question :
Someone who has actually attended figg meetings should really
answer those questions. I believe the answers are the following:
> * do the minutes of the figg include a list of the people present on
> the
> AGMs, and the proxy votes?
No. Nor do they contain any list of people present.
> * if true, where can they be accessed?
Some minutes are published on the figg website, like the
one for the 1999 meeting which induced the split:
http://www.figg.org/federazione/assemblee/1999str.html
There are no minutes for the 2004 or 2005 meetings published.
> * if true, do the proxy votes correspond to people listed on the EGF
> rating list?
Not applicable.
But the group of people from the Biella club and the judoka
headed by Cesare Barioli who helped keeping 37 players out of
the Jan. 1999 Figg meeting don't appear on the EGF list and
according to Pratesi have not been heard of after the event.
Henric
Harry Sigerson
> The clients supported their patronus
> and helped him to stay in power in return for protection and other
> favors that he could give them. That kind of structure was very
> important everywhere in Europe from antiquity through the middle ages
> and left remnants right into modern times, although it gradually faded
> away when it became easier for individuals to support themselves on
> their own and they felt more protected for instance by a strong state..
>
Isn't that now called 'right-wing' thinking; promoting the sort of
control implicit in religions and kingdoms. It's a lot less trouble for
the individual supplicant and subject just to do as he's told, no matter
what he's told, forelock tugging is easily learnt - except for the French
<allez France>, they seem to have had the flu jab. The r-w thing always
involves lots of chasubles, uniforms, regalia with plumes and ermine and
such; and of course the important genuflection element.
That's why it's so important to get hair-transplants when you're
trying to get your baldy self elected president. The last baldy PM we had
in the UK was Clement Attlee a good man but he'd need a re-thatching job
today.
Nowadays; that's much more important than what you've actually done
- in office; or so it seems to this jaded eye. And of course that
right-wing arrangement is such a good mulch in which to grow Fascism.
The only prophylactic, not cure - there isn't one - is a *broad* and
intensive education - and for the r-w that's yet another substance-abuse
they have to control 'properly'.
Education is not a cure; you can't save it up. What you've worked
out to be a good and accurate conclusion thanks to your education, can't
be stuck in the bank to leave in your will to your offspring. It's not
like money or shares. Kids have to start from scratch just like their
parents and there is no guarantee that they'll think things out in a good
way.
Style, money, *power*, in this day and age is what rules - via
televisually and movie-trained eyes.
It used to be that the r-w perps would push the boat out that bit
too far and we'd all wind up in a World War or some such stramash. At
least that would, re-initialise, things for the surviving ordinary
punters - well, for a while at least. There would be an attendant slogan
of some sort to look up to while you leant on your crutches, "A Land Fit
For Heroes" was one such.
Nowadays WWs are too big a risk for the powers-that-be so folk are
stuck with having to learn to think and that is so 'enervating', trop
fatiguant; worse still it's threatening. In Detroit '28 or so they used
four by twos to sort things out.
Next thing you know the educated proles know how to use the law.
Trouble is that sort of knowledge, the using of the law, is a very
marketable commodity - and we're back to money. Now, with the cutting
back of legal aid....
There's a wealthy Italian chap (a good pal of our Tony Blair) who
has been, over last few days, trying to persuade folk in his place that
he is the good guy. I wonder how successful he's been? Perhaps his
hair-job has not been good enough - I hope so.
I wonder which of FIGG or AGI is the more heavily backed by that
sort of 'power'; though perhaps on a smaller scale of course?
With the rapid growth of GO internationally, this 30+kyu, looks on
in wonder at the evidence of that growth as demonstrated by the Internet.
It's absolutely amazing. I bought a set of GO stones in the early
nineties, I made a goban from 16mm plywood. Only one of my friends, a
Dane, had any interest in the game. What we later learned was called Ko
puzzled us a bit <s> till we read Kaoru Iwamoto's little book a bit more
carefully.
So inexorably the stones and goban went into limbo. I'm a
self-employed Civil and Structural Engineer, I work from home and use a
PC - a lot. So the boom in GO the internet has demonstrated has amazed
me.
If you have an International, even World wide agency to promote
anything and that agency disagrees with some decision made by one of its
comprising regions, say the EGF, then democratically the reason for this
lack of agreement will have been made known to all the other regions.
I don't think that it would be inconsistent for the EGF in its turn
to then disseminate this disagreement within its body politic - Europe -
on whatever were the points in question. Then they have to agree on what
action to take.
I don't' know if the constituent members of the EGF participated in
chewing this particular piece of hard nougat. I suppose they have been;
though from the discussions on this newsgroup it seems indigestible.
The last thing you want to do is to dance attendance on recalcitrant
would-be or de-facto members. Once you start that you are as the saying
goes neither fish nor fowl. It's epaulet ripping-off and sword-breaking
time. Seven plus years is a long time and any known machinations during
that time cannot be forgotten about.
At least not unless you know that it doesn't matter what you've
done, that your place in the sun is assured - from above.
Harry.
Hans Kloss
You mean the guy who owns big chunk of Italian economy? Whether he is a
good or bad boy is a matter that is completly irrelevant for so called
common folk. In political system of majority western states today
majority has lost any influence and thus interest. The reasons are many
but I suspect the way it works has something to do with it i.e. once in
a while we chose people that then do what they please. When I studied
history once (I forgot almost everything since but some things remain I
hope) I relealized that in principle democracy meant that the gathering
of citizens (which was very limited term at the time) discussed the
problem and ays of solving it and then chose the goal to be achived, the
way to achieve it and who was going to lead the community there. Now if
I look at the sustem of today it does not remain this (idealistic I
admit) picture. The fact the with each and every day we are further away
from free press ideals of the past is also not very encouraging and
please do not tell me that blogs have such a major influence here - they
have not even if there were incidents that seemed to confirm their
significance.
>
> I wonder which of FIGG or AGI is the more heavily backed by that
> sort of 'power'; though perhaps on a smaller scale of course?
> With the rapid growth of GO internationally, this 30+kyu, looks on
> in wonder at the evidence of that growth as demonstrated by the Internet.
> It's absolutely amazing. I bought a set of GO stones in the early
> nineties, I made a goban from 16mm plywood. Only one of my friends, a
> Dane, had any interest in the game. What we later learned was called Ko
> puzzled us a bit <s> till we read Kaoru Iwamoto's little book a bit more
> carefully.
> So inexorably the stones and goban went into limbo. I'm a
> self-employed Civil and Structural Engineer, I work from home and use a
> PC - a lot. So the boom in GO the internet has demonstrated has amazed
> me.
this is not only internet although internet may play a major role in
promotion of the game - when I played first few games in my home town
(800k inhabitants at the time) there were few players of any skill there
and similar number of fresh enthusiasts. That was 15years ago. I looked
few weeks ago on their web site and I saw that last year there were few
tournaments ther! something I would not have expected few years back.
//
henricb...@gmail.com
>> Harry Sigerson wrote:
> There's a wealthy Italian chap (a good pal of our Tony Blair) who
>has been, over last few days, trying to persuade folk in his place that
>he is the good guy. I wonder how successful he's been? Perhaps his
>hair-job has not been good enough - I hope so.
It looks like they have sacked him at last.
Let's hope that the Italian goplayers will be able to
do the same.
best regards,
H.
Harry Sigerson
> ...In political system of majority western states today
> majority has lost any influence and thus interest. The reasons are many
> but I suspect the way it works has something to do with it i.e. once in
> a while we chose people that then do what they please. ...
When you say 'majority' I take it you 'most folk' <smile> and not the
voted majority; and I agree with that. There seems to be an apathy in some
electorates. France and its 'raise the barricades' actions on so many things
political comes in for quite a bit of sneering from the English - in
particular of the South East. The last time, that I can remember when Brits
did something like that was to stop the bitch's Poll Tax.
There seems, to me, in the minds of some politicos that the electorate
exists to serve them and not the other way around. We have a King Blair but we
don't have a Guillotine to deal with him. The Prime Minister of these not so
United Kingdoms is a very powerful position.
> ...When I studied
> history once (I forgot almost everything since but some things remain I
> hope) I relealized that in principle democracy meant that the gathering
> of citizens (which was very limited term at the time) discussed the
> problem and ays of solving it and then chose the goal to be achived, the
> way to achieve it and who was going to lead the community there. Now if
> I look at the sustem of today it does not remain this (idealistic I
> admit) picture. The fact the with each and every day we are further away
> from free press ideals of the past is also not very encouraging and
> please do not tell me that blogs have such a major influence here - they
> have not even if there were incidents that seemed to confirm their
> significance.
What can I say to that bit of your post, except that I wholly agree; and
yes and yes again to your point about our press. Then a free Press in the
'long ago' would have been the product of those who thought it and wrote it.
Now if I were to ask anyone on the street what is a 'free' press my guess is
that they'd tell me it's those wall-to-wall-advertising 'papers' they push
through my door every week.
> ...this is not only internet although internet may play a major role in
> promotion of the game...
No of course not. How about this. If I was to poll a reasonable sample of
the UK public and ask them what do they understand by the word 'Chess' they'd
score well <s>. I'd risk a 'quarter' of Liquorice Allsorts, a similar size
sample would not do well if the seed was 'Go' and even less so for Weiqi and
Baduk.
{back on politics, I hear from the this morning's Today program that the
Italian election outcome is balanced on the crispest of cusps; and we worry
about the 'Figgagi Code' <s>}.
Harry.
Harry.
Harry Sigerson
> It looks like they have sacked him at last.
> Let's hope that the Italian goplayers will be able to
> do the same.
>
As I've just posted to Hans, it couldn't be more finely
balanced.
There is on the web page that shows maps with the locations of
Go clubs in lots of the countries of the world. I don't think for a
minute that it is complete; someone's own way of showing the range of
the game. It'll be in the Bookmark list somewhere.
Looking at this for, in our case the European scene, I wondered
who EGF deals with for each country.
We have that great thing the European Union, a coming together
of lots of countries for the common good. The EU still sticks to
entire countries as its building blocks, as it had to; each of their
separate cultures have, over millennia, managed to grow lots of
languages (and laws) all of which have developed in their particular
ways (Chaucer's text is to a great extent a 'foreign' language to
this English speaker - I'd wager there is a Chaucer-like version for
each and every other European language).
Now, let's use France as an example since there are lots of Go
clubs there (I could have cited Deutschland for the same reason).
When the EGF in the course of it's dealings with its 'European'
members, is talking to France, who does it 'speak' to; or to whom
does it speak <s>?
Is it simply that Internet communication is so quick and so
widespread, all that has to done is band spread its needs to be then
afforded what would be an overwhelming response from all those
hundreds of clubs in France?
Or has the EGF asked the clubs of France to find among
themselves a body of folk with the time, knowledge of the game and
enthusiasm to be an information gathering and disseminating body
dealing with the work of the EGF.
I'd say that last would have to be the case; I'll also hazard a
guess that this is all laid out in some sort of 'Written
Constitution' (that two word phrase that frightens Englishmen). Of
course those things only work if the folk who brought them into being
cooperate to 'make it so'.
It all seems so logical.
Wonder why it has such trouble from time to time, with some
folk?. When it doesn't, is it It all down to yon, 'Look At Me, I'm
Dancing' syndrome?
Ego, does not require anything other than recognition.
Harry.
parim(nospam)belli
> Henric,
>
>
>>It looks like they have sacked him at last.
>>Let's hope that the Italian goplayers will be able to
>>do the same.
>>
>
> As I've just posted to Hans, it couldn't be more finely
> balanced.
> There is on the web page that shows maps with the locations of
> Go clubs in lots of the countries of the world. I don't think for a
> minute that it is complete; someone's own way of showing the range of
> the game. It'll be in the Bookmark list somewhere.
> Looking at this for, in our case the European scene, I wondered
> who EGF deals with for each country.
> We have that great thing the European Union, a coming together
> of lots of countries for the common good. The EU still sticks to
> entire countries as its building blocks, as it had to; each of their
> separate cultures have, over millennia, managed to grow lots of
> languages (and laws) all of which have developed in their particular
> ways (Chaucer's text is to a great extent a 'foreign' language to
> this English speaker - I'd wager there is a Chaucer-like version for
> each and every other European language).
No. "Sao ko kelle terre ...", the first short text written in Italian
before the year 1000, does look strange, but it is still understandable
if you know modern Italian.
> Now, let's use France as an example since there are lots of Go
> clubs there (I could have cited Deutschland for the same reason).
> When the EGF in the course of it's dealings with its 'European'
> members, is talking to France, who does it 'speak' to; or to whom
> does it speak <s>?
To the French Go Federation, of course.
> Is it simply that Internet communication is so quick and so
> widespread, all that has to done is band spread its needs to be then
> afforded what would be an overwhelming response from all those
> hundreds of clubs in France?
> Or has the EGF asked the clubs of France to find among
> themselves a body of folk with the time, knowledge of the game and
> enthusiasm to be an information gathering and disseminating body
> dealing with the work of the EGF.
> I'd say that last would have to be the case;
Actually, it went the other way round. The Go Associations of some
European countries (Germany, Austria, UK, Yugoslavia and perhaps a few
more) decided sometime around 1960 that having a European Go Federation
was a good idea to coordinate their activities.
Regards,
Sergio Parimbelli
henricb...@gmail.com
parim(nospam)belli wrote:
> Harry Sigerson wrote:
> > Henric,
> >
> >
> >>It looks like they have sacked him at last.
> >>Let's hope that the Italian goplayers will be able to
> >>do the same.
> >>
> >
> > As I've just posted to Hans, it couldn't be more finely
> > balanced.
> > There is on the web page that shows maps with the locations of
> > Go clubs in lots of the countries of the world. I don't think for a
> > minute that it is complete; someone's own way of showing the range of
> > the game. It'll be in the Bookmark list somewhere.
> > Looking at this for, in our case the European scene, I wondered
> > who EGF deals with for each country.
> > We have that great thing the European Union, a coming together
> > of lots of countries for the common good. The EU still sticks to
> > entire countries as its building blocks, as it had to; each of their
> > separate cultures have, over millennia, managed to grow lots of
> > languages (and laws) all of which have developed in their particular
> > ways (Chaucer's text is to a great extent a 'foreign' language to
> > this English speaker - I'd wager there is a Chaucer-like version for
> > each and every other European language).
(not sure that I'm following the argument very well here...)
> No. "Sao ko kelle terre ...", the first short text written in Italian
> before the year 1000, does look strange, but it is still understandable
> if you know modern Italian.
Placiti cassinesi, interesting. But where do you put the italian
dialects
along with that argument? I would agree that texts by Dante and
Boccaccio, not
to mention later on by Giordano Bruno or Galilei, look pretty modern.
But this is a literary tradition, supposedly it doesn't say so much
about how
people have actually been speaking throughout the centuries. As I
recall it
is often claimed that the italian language was created /made up by
Bembo
et al. around 1600, or even by Manzoni et al. in the 19th century.
What is your answer to the related question: why is it that written
language
and the standard spoken language today correspond so well in e.g.
italian, spanish and german, whereas there is such a spelling mess in
the cases of e.g. english, french and swedish? It has always been a
mystery to me.
For the record: written swedish from the early 14th century is
understandable to a swedish speaking person with no special training,
but not very easily. The spelling, but also the vocabulary and the
grammar are quite different from the modern language. At least 10-20%
of the words have no recognisable counterpart in modern swedish.
Contemporary written norwegian or danish are definitely easier to
understand to a modern swede than 14th century swedish.
There are for sure problems with definitions in this field. As somebody
said: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy".
> > Now, let's use France as an example since there are lots of Go
> > clubs there (I could have cited Deutschland for the same reason).
> > When the EGF in the course of it's dealings with its 'European'
> > members, is talking to France, who does it 'speak' to; or to whom
> > does it speak <s>?
>
> To the French Go Federation, of course.
>
> > Is it simply that Internet communication is so quick and so
> > widespread, all that has to done is band spread its needs to be then
> > afforded what would be an overwhelming response from all those
> > hundreds of clubs in France?
> > Or has the EGF asked the clubs of France to find among
> > themselves a body of folk with the time, knowledge of the game and
> > enthusiasm to be an information gathering and disseminating body
> > dealing with the work of the EGF.
> > I'd say that last would have to be the case;
>
> Actually, it went the other way round. The Go Associations of some
> European countries (Germany, Austria, UK, Yugoslavia and perhaps a few
> more) decided sometime around 1960 that having a European Go Federation
> was a good idea to coordinate their activities.
Summer 1959, Germany, Austria, UK, Holland and perhaps Yugoslavia,
that's what can be gathered from Franco Pratesis Eurogo, volume 2.
best regards,
Henric
Harry Sigerson
> No. "Sao ko kelle terre ...", the first short text written in Italian
> before the year 1000, does look strange, but it is still understandable
> if you know modern Italian.
No I don't know modern Italian, except for a phrase or two; a bit
like most Brits. Except for small amount of school-boy French and fluent
Glaswegian, I only have this language. Yet once again Google comes to my
rescue when seeded with the phrase you gave...
"As the spoken language changed, Latin continued to be used for
writing. The earliest written evidence of an Italian vernacular comes from
10th century legal documents quoting illiterate witnesses to a dispute
over land ownership near Monte Cassino, beginning with the much quoted
words "Sao ke kelle terre per kelle fini que ki contene, trenta anni le
possette parte sancti benedicti." ("I know that these lands within these
borders have been held for thirty years by the party of St Benedict...").
A couple of centuries later Dante Alighieri was the first notable literary
figure to use a form of the vernacular in the La Divina commedia, not long
after he had written (in Latin) a study of the languages of the peninsula,
De volgare eloquentia."
...which is very interesting.
Unless I am being unkind to the UK, I think it is being a set of
islands which on being forcibly concatenated into a UK few hundred years
ago, has bred in us a lingual insularity. It affects other things too. I'm
an Engineer and of course over quite big chunk of my time in the
profession we've been making the change to the Metric System, against all
the obstinacy that only the English can muster. But I hadn't realised just
how long it had been going on till I came across this next bit of a link
I'll send you to - if you wish.
When I feel like a bit of a sad chuckle I re-read it.
The full link is...
http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/dictunit.htm
...and it is a very useful link too.
The man who put it together must have had a wry sense of humour or
was just glad to be shot of his position. On that page, about 24 lines
down he gives another link...
www.ex.ac.uk/trol/dictunit/
...and when you go there you are given the choice of Parts 1 and 2.
Choose Part 2 and using the scroll bar run down to about half way through
that page. There you will see...
"Historical Perspectives on Metrication" by Jim Humble
(who was the last Director of the UK Metrication Board.)
...it is quite a short story. He finishes up with, "How sad, what a
waste, what a pity." You can't miss the piece, it has a sickly green
background, which if nothing else eases the eyes.
> To the French Go Federation, of course.
Thanks for that.
> Actually, it went the other way round. The Go Associations of some
> European countries (Germany, Austria, UK, Yugoslavia and perhaps a few
> more) decided sometime around 1960 that having a European Go Federation
> was a good idea to coordinate their activities.
And would have discussed among themselves a few possible arrangements
on how the proposed EGF should do this and would then have put these ideas
out 'on paper' among themselves for further thought and to be further
disseminated among the nations' clubs and so its players. A long process
and for me, interestingly, a long time ago before my thirty-something sons
and daughter were even a prospect on the horizon; but still a lot quicker
than British Metrication implementation.
That national stage, where the clubs and players were looking at and
agreeing proposals would have been the real birth of the EGF; making it
almost a sibling of the European Union - and those are almost a pair of
dirty words in this country.
So what happened to Italy in all this progressive stuff at the end of
which we find ourselves into the last part of the first tenth of a new
century? Perhaps modern Italian is simply transmitted so fast that the
receivers will all have to switch to DAB (Don't Act Bolshie) reception to
make progress.
Regards,
Harry.
>
> Regards,
> Sergio Parimbelli
>