Superhero RPGs
stevens charles a
Hello. For those of you that play any of the Superhero RPGs, which do you
think is the best? DC Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS Supers,
etc... And why, of course.
...Chaz...
P.S. I heard once that all ICE needs to do now is come up with a Superhero
RPG that is compatible with Rolemaster/Spacemaster. Do you agree?
Richard G Tomasso
As someone who has been playing superhero RPG's for about 7 years, I'd
have to say that overall Champions is the best system.
Despite the fact that it is a little complex, it does allow for a lot
of variety and gives you a built-in balancing system and several of the
mechanics provide story and background ideas.
I'd also give a favorable word to Marvel. This is a great teaching game
for the genre. This is the game system I started with before moving on to
Champions.
I know several people who like DC, but the system has too many problems,
even in the second edition rules, to really work for campaigns at low power
levels and where realism is of any importance. The action and result tables
are also all wrong. Twice as powerful is twice as powerful whether you're at
the 5 AP end or the 50 AP end of the scale. The game does have some good ideas
on interrogation and 'presence attacks' though.
Well, these are just my ideas, and sorry if I upset anybody.
P.S. GURPS is also good, or will be once the revision comes out. Worth
at least a look for low-powered or very realistic campaigns, and worth a look
for any campaign.
Walter Milliken
> Hello. For those of you that play any of the Superhero RPGs, which do you
>think is the best? DC Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS Supers,
>etc... And why, of course.
I don't play any of the above, but I'm familiar with several of them.
If you want comic-book supers, I'd recommend Champions. I don't
recommend GURPS Supers in its first edition, but the second should be
much better. It would be my choice of preference (once it comes out)
for any "realistic superhero" campaign, such as the Wild Cards setting.
Champions probably has the most flexible power-creation system, though
the new GURPS Supers won't be too far behind. Champs supers tend to
be "four-color" style, while GURPS Supers can fairly easily be killed
by normals with guns. I'm not terribly fond of the Hero combat system
in general, with all the complex phase stuff -- I find GURPS much
superior in that respect. I think GURPS also does a much better job
with non-super aspects of characters.
In general, I think GURPS is better play-balanced than Champs is,
though the old version of Supers had serious holes. (These seem to
have been mostly plugged in the new version.) From net comments and
my own reading of the system, it appears that the GM has a large part
of the responsibility of keeping characters play-balanced in Champs --
"Just say NO!" seems to be important advice to the Champs GM. In
running the non-Supers genres in GURPS, I haven't found I've had to
veto many characters for play balance reasons, though some have been
inappropriate to the campaign.
Both Champions and GURPS use fairly complex character design rules.
If you like "roll up and go" systems, you'd be better off avoiding
either. Both are also have a lot of detailed rules -- most of the
other superhero games seem to tend more toward simplistic mechanics.
---Walter
BANE
>For those of you that play any of the Superhero RPGs, which do you
>think is the best? DC Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS Supers,
>etc... And why, of course.
Well, firstly, you've got to ask whether you prefer roleplay or ruleplay. I
prefer ROLEplaying myself, so I play the system wherein the rules are
singularly useless: Villains and Vigilantes.
The rules are sketchy enough that you can actually invent new ones at will,
yet work well enough that the game is still playable and comprehensible. Of
course, there are some rules that defy physics, such as a nuclear device may
only do four points of damage, or a machine gun is useless if you fire more
than 8 bullets. But, on the lighter side, you can easily invent your own
powers. This is good, since the book only covers the most generic and basic
powers that appear in comics.
If you don't like V&V, I'd suggest GURPS, as the game is designed to give
as much freedom as possible to both GM and PC. The only problem I have is
that a character with a strength of 180 would still have only minor lifting
strength compared to comic heroes.
Whatever.
-Bane the Mighty
Niels E. Rasmussen
>For those of you that play any of the Superhero RPGs, which do you
>think is the best? DC Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS Supers,
>etc... And why, of course.
I have never seen DC Heroes, so I will not include this in the following.
My knowledge of Champions and GURPS Supers is severely limited, but I do,
however, have friends that possesses these systems, and they agree with me
on this point: If you really want to play a great game of super heroes,
play TSR's Marvel Superheroes(advanced). The atmosphere, enhanced by the
enormous amount of background material, is like in no other game I have ever
played before.
Like Call is THE horror game, we have been discussing why Marvel Superheroes
is THE game of superheroes (in our opinion of course).
We have come up with the following reasons:
The background material for MS, supplied by thousands of comics, is not
even remotely matched by Champs, and GURPS has not even got this
backup. In my opinion, this is a mayor influencing factor.
A conversion of Marvel Comics Super Heroes into the Champs system
would require some hard work, and conversion into the GURPS system
simply isn't possible. This is reason #2.
In MS, you can really play a hero (after all, that is the reason to
play a Superhero RPG, "I absorb the energy from the nuclear
explosion, now what?"). The possibilities in Champs are more
limited, and in GURPS, they simply aren't there.
Really, GURPS is a great system, but you can't make a TRUE superhero
and still play by the rules. The typical GURPS superhero is made
out of 500 points (I think). If you would like to play a fairly
powerfull Marvel Comics Super Hero with it's own limitations, you
could easily spend 10 or 100 times the alotted amount.
The limitation in GURPS is simply, that it is too realistic.
However, realism in an RPG is a matter of definition, and my
definition of realism in a superhero RPG is that you should be
able to dodge laserfire (with a high agility), survive free falls
from beyond the atmosphere (because you're tough), enter hyperspace
by own means (because you have the Phoenix Force, or ride a sliver
coated surf board) and get ripped up by swords or claws and still
survive (because of your healing factor).
In the typical definition of realism, this is far out, but the GURPS
definition of realism is almost constant throughout the system,
so the Supers aspect suffers on the others account.
Champs fall in between these two, I think, but my limited knowledge
pledges me not to try to elaborate further.
Many rules in MS defies what we call natural. This reflects the comics.
Villains and Heroes can shout at one another and still be miles
apart. Everybody can be exposed to chemicals or radiation and
gain from the encounter (villains tend to be unlucky, and then
blames the heroes for their disaster). Robots look human.
Man's technical level is typical 1990's technology, but most heroes
or villains with a little brains can make teleport-devices and
space-shuttles. There is nothing to do but accept these conditions.
In some mystic way, the system tends to reflect these Marvel
Comics Super Heroes Quirks with great skill. So if you like the
comics, you'll like the system. But if you don't like the comics,
play something else.
Last but not least, there is the unlimited amount of possibilities
contained within the system. You can play anything from old lady
(possible in every system, but not particularly funny in MS)
to selfproclaimed god (NOT possible in every system, reasonably
funny, surprisingly interesting). Anything within these extremes
are both possible and easily contained within the system.
TSR have made a great deal of publications to MS over the years.
Together with the boxed set, they provide over 300 different
powers, thousands of heroes and villains, all contained within
the Marvel Comics Super Heroes Magazines, a fully developed
magic system and lots 'n' lots of hardware.
And you can easily enhance the system yourself.
I don't know if this will help anybody or enrage others. What you have read
is the opinions of a fanatic MS-player. In my opinion MS is the best SHRPG
ever made, and the possibilities within any other SH system is merely
contained within the bounds of MS. It has it all.
I will not claim to be omnipotent in this area. The listed arguments may
hold for other systems as well, but MS has a certain unique atmosphere.
PS: This is not the opinions of some crazed powerplayer. I love RM above
all else, even MS, and keeps a strict environment, but sometimes
you just have to let go.
Shade and Sweet Water to all
--Fanadring
Laird Popkin
>If you don't like V&V, I'd suggest GURPS, as the game is designed to give
>as much freedom as possible to both GM and PC. The only problem I have is
>that a character with a strength of 180 would still have only minor lifting
>strength compared to comic heroes.
>
There is a rule in GURPS Supers that is easy to miss, but has major
implications which are fundamental to the game. You can use "extra effort"
using your stregth, requiring you to make a strength roll at -1 for every
10% added to your strength. For example, a strength 180 character can use
extra effort, rolling against 16 (ST-164) and have an extra 1640% strength
(i.e. ST = 2952) for lifting things and throwing them around, for example.
Extra effort also costs fatigue, but we never keep track of that in my
group because a character with ST 180 doesn't have to worry about fatigue.
Also, the second edition Supers rules (aka Supers II) is reducing ST costs
along a curve, so ST gets cheaper (per point) as you get more.
>Whatever.
>
> -Bane the Mighty
Laird
Andrew Pearlman
>In article <15...@june.cs.washington.edu>, ts...@cs.washington.edu
> (Donald Tsang) writes...
>>of thousands). In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
>as per the STR chart (pg. 173, CHAMPIONS 4th ed. or Hero System Rulesbook).
>Taking the mass of the earth as 5.98 x 10^21 metric tons (The Concord Desk
>Encyclopedia), the STR necessary to lift this much mass should be
>2,445,403,952. Of course this assumes that "a world" can be approximated
It is quite a bit less than that. The actual figure is around 450. 2 ^
500,000,000 * 100 kg is a *very* large number. You'd probably have a good
chance of being able to lift the universe with that number(a very bizarre
concept indeed :-)
Andy Pearlman
Glen Bailey
I've never seen Marvel Super Heroes in total, but what I have seen,
and their definitions of Marvel characters I disagreed with, made me
stay with Champions. I have no problem with a "Silver Surfer" or
any other Marvel character being defined in Champions. We're trying
GURPS Supers now and what I've seen so far I'd prefer SuperWorld
over it (based on the Runequest system), and Champions over that.
Donald Tsang
>In article <> st89...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (BANE) writes:
>>If you don't like V&V, I'd suggest GURPS, as the game is designed to give
>>as much freedom as possible to both GM and PC. The only problem I have is
>>that a character with a strength of 180 would still have only minor lifting
>>strength compared to comic heroes.
>There is a rule in GURPS Supers that is easy to miss, but has major
>implications which are fundamental to the game. You can use "extra effort"
>using your stregth, requiring you to make a strength roll at -1 for every
>10% added to your strength. For example, a strength 180 character can use
>extra effort, rolling against 16 (ST-164) and have an extra 1640% strength
>(i.e. ST = 2952) for lifting things and throwing them around, for example.
Well, this is still O(n^2), where most "other" Superhero systems
(read: Champions) use O(2^n). With O(n^2), the delta strength
required to lift twice as much weight depends linearly on the weight
(ie, still takes ~1.4x as much strength to lift twice as much), whereas
in Hero, "every 5 points doubles"
So to lift a world, you still need some ridiculous strength (in the tens
of thousands). In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
Hmm. Perhaps we should net-write a system whose stats are O(n^n), or
O(n!), or based on Ackerman's Function? :-)
> Extra effort also costs fatigue, but we never keep track of that in my
>group because a character with ST 180 doesn't have to worry about fatigue.
The fatigue rules have always bothered me a bit, especially when you deal
with ST >> 20...
>Also, the second edition Supers rules (aka Supers II) is reducing ST costs
>along a curve, so ST gets cheaper (per point) as you get more.
Not sure if this is good or not. We'll see.
Donald Tsang
ts...@june.cs.washington.edu
WINDHAM, MICHAEL DHANE
>Well, this is still O(n^2), where most "other" Superhero systems
>(read: Champions) use O(2^n). With O(n^2), the delta strength
>required to lift twice as much weight depends linearly on the weight
>(ie, still takes ~1.4x as much strength to lift twice as much), whereas
>in Hero, "every 5 points doubles"
>
>So to lift a world, you still need some ridiculous strength (in the tens
>of thousands). In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
I will have to disagree. A STR of 120 will only lift eight cruisers
as per the STR chart (pg. 173, CHAMPIONS 4th ed. or Hero System Rulesbook).
Taking the mass of the earth as 5.98 x 10^21 metric tons (The Concord Desk
Encyclopedia), the STR necessary to lift this much mass should be
2,445,403,952. Of course this assumes that "a world" can be approximated
by the earth, lifting in earth-normal gravity, that the world won't fall around
this poor character, that my math is correct, etc.
P.S. The number 2,445,403,952 is now the property of Stanglin Publications, a
subsidiary of Stanglin Enterprises as per U.S. copyright law, all rights
reserved.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dr. Gerald Stanglin, P.I.T.
(aka Michael D. Windham)
Jeff Cohen
(Warning: before I go on, I have run both marvel basic and advanced,
have played/run a little champs, have never seen gurps supers (though
I've looked through gurps basic), and couldn't stand D.C. based on
what I felt was a silly stat system.)
1) Marvel is simpler than champions. Ninety plus percent of the game
can be run using 1 table and the character's sheets.
2) Marvel's karma system. Instead of exp's, marvel super heros earn
karma points. As per normal, these can be spent on skills. However,
they can also be used to modify die rolls. For example, Aunt May is
plummeting from a building, and here webslingin' nephew swings out to
catch her before she goes KER-SPLAT! Looking at the table, the G.M.
decides spidey needs a green result (results from worst to best are:
white, green, yellow, red), which means spidey needs a 25 or better
(the systemp uses d100). 75% may sound good to you, but this is
Aunt May! So, spidey says "karma for a green", and then rolls the
dice. If he rolls 25 and over, she's saved, and spidey spends 10
karma (just for announcing the use of karma). If the roll is less,
spidey pays enough karma to make up the difference and Voila! he
makes it anyway.
Why do I think this system is so great? Because it gives the characters
the chance to really feel like super-heros. They know that when the
chips are down, and Apocalypse is ready to release his deadly plague
on mankind, that Havok can make that patented one-in-a-million shot
that will fuse the control pods, and that Wolverine can make that oh-
so-long leap across the chasm and slice the wiring before Apocalypse
can trigger the device manually.
All the characters have to do is spend their karma wisely.
3) System Flavor. This is much more of a personal feeling, so I hesitate
to add it; but, I argue that there is a different feel in playing the
same type of characters in different system's. Thus, I feel a 10th
level AD&D fighter, a 20th level Rolemaster fighter, and a mercenary
seargent in warhammer all have the same relative 'power', but still
feel vastly different in their respective systems.
In the same vein, spider-man in marvel seems to feel more, well,
'spidey-ish' than the same character translated into champions.
Said in another way (and probably closer to my meaning) take a
new player, let them play a marvel character and a champions
character, and they will claim that they 'felt' more like a super
hero in marvel than in champions. I've done just this with maybe
10 people, not enough to draw conclusions, but enough to notice
a pattern. In every case (including a few who don't like comic
characters and think they are silly) they felt that marvel made them
FEEL more like a super-hero.
Obviously, the GM and the players have a lot to do with the feel of
a game, but I contend that, all else being equal, marvel's system
feels more like a super-hero system than champions.
I could go on more, but this has gotten sorta longish. Just two last
points:
a) The reason I stayed away from the DC system was its stat system.
Each point in a stat was worth twice the last. For example,
an 8 strength was twice as strong as a 7 strength. The average human
had a strength of 3 (I think). Superman had a strength of 50! This,
I felt, was excessive and just plain silly. Just think, find
Superman's new arch-enemy, the man with a 51 strength. Being twice
as strong as superman, he...like I said, I find this all silly.
b) A tip to mighty marvelites. I use the following system for spending
Karma (a modification to the rules). All characters must spend karma
in units of 5. Thus, if they need to spend 32 karma, make 'em spend
35. However, if they call for karma and make the roll anyway, let them
lose only 5 (not 10). This rule is only intended to make the numbers
eisier.
Excelsior! (I couldn't resist :-) )
-Raven the long-winded
--
Jeff Cohen ben...@wam.umd.edu
David Covin
> (Donald Tsang) writes...
>
>>Well, this is still O(n^2), where most "other" Superhero systems
>>(read: Champions) use O(2^n). With O(n^2), the delta strength
>>required to lift twice as much weight depends linearly on the weight
>>(ie, still takes ~1.4x as much strength to lift twice as much), whereas
>>in Hero, "every 5 points doubles"
>>
>>So to lift a world, you still need some ridiculous strength (in the tens
>>of thousands). In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
>
> I will have to disagree. A STR of 120 will only lift eight cruisers
>as per the STR chart (pg. 173, CHAMPIONS 4th ed. or Hero System Rulesbook).
>Taking the mass of the earth as 5.98 x 10^21 metric tons (The Concord Desk
>Encyclopedia), the STR necessary to lift this much mass should be
>2,445,403,952. Of course this assumes that "a world" can be approximated
>by the earth, lifting in earth-normal gravity, that the world won't fall around
>this poor character, that my math is correct, etc.
Well, your math is incorrect. :-)
Every +5 points of strength multiplies lifting ability by 2; so every
+50 points multiplies lifting ability by 10^3; so +350 points multiplies
lifting ability by 10^21.
Strength 10 enables a character to lift 100kg; so STR 40 enables a character
to lift 6.4 metric tons. So STR 390 will enable a character to lift
6.4 x 10^21 metric tons, or just about the weight of the Earth, accepting
your source as correct.
Incidentally, DC Heroes, at least at some point, used a similar log scale,
with normal human strength being 2 (in Champions it's 10) and each point
multiplying lifting ability by 2. Superman was listed as Strength 50, which
converts to 250 in Champions.
Bruce Onder
fana...@daimi.aau.dk (Niels E. Rasmussen) writes:
>> The background material for MS, supplied by thousands of comics, is not
>> even remotely matched by Champs, and GURPS has not even got this
>> backup. In my opinion, this is a mayor influencing factor.
>
>Sorry? You're trying to say that Champs isn't able to use the wealth of
>information supplied by Marvel comics? Pretty bizarre reasoning but as long
>as your using it might as well follow it through... Marvel has a wealth of
>information and background material supplied by Marvel Comics, but is severely
>limited by not being able to use background material found in other comics.
>Champions, however, is equally capable of using material from any comic book
>(tho some I don't know why you'd want to <- PERSONAL OPINION)
Can you supply an example of what you mean? I remember both games
only dimly; it seemed much easier to adapt any given non-Marvel
character to MSH than to Champions. Champions seemed like just too much
work, especially for beginners.
>Conversion of Marvel Comics Super Heroes game into Champs, I dunno...
>conversion of Marvel Comics super heroes & villains, however, is quite simple.
>I've done just that while bored ('ho hum nothing to do for the next half hour
>I wonder how Spider Man would look in Champs...'). I must say however that
>most Marvel super types can easily get very expensive. *shrug* If everybody
>wants to play at that kindof game anyway, no big deal.
The thing I liked most about MSH (from what I remember) is that there
was no point engineering.
Half an hour to convert a character? That's a bit excessive for my
tastes. I can't imagine that it would take much more than five or ten
minutes for even a beginner to do a decent conversion of any character
into MSH.
>> In MS, you can really play a hero (after all, that is the reason to
>> play a Superhero RPG, "I absorb the energy from the nuclear
>> explosion, now what?"). The possibilities in Champs are more
>> limited, and in GURPS, they simply aren't there.
>
>I'm sorry, how are the possibilities limited? If you're going to make
>generalizations at _least_ provide examples, if not facts.
I agree, there should be examples from both sides.
>> Really, GURPS is a great system, but you can't make a TRUE superhero
>> and still play by the rules. The typical GURPS superhero is made
>> out of 500 points (I think). If you would like to play a fairly
>> powerfull Marvel Comics Super Hero with it's own limitations, you
>> could easily spend 10 or 100 times the alotted amount.
>> The limitation in GURPS is simply, that it is too realistic.
>> However, realism in an RPG is a matter of definition, and my
>> definition of realism in a superhero RPG is that you should be
>> able to dodge laserfire (with a high agility),
>
>Champs: dodge maneuver +3 to defensive combat value, high dex, extra combat
>levels... seems to be pretty simple to me.
Sure it does. That's because you know the system inside and out.
Given new players, I can easily imagine that MSH is a much more
enjoyable game than Champions. Heroes are easier to create. There is
more background material with complete stats. The rules system is
scads simpler.
>Sorry but I don't see anything unique to MS here.
I agree. Each system has its own approach to reach the same ends. I
think that MSH caters to the gamer who wants a minimum of rules and lots
canned background available pretty much on demand.
>*amused smile* Really? Name some characters from Marvel that you don't
>think can be duplicated in Champs. (side note: the possibilities within any
>gaming system are merely contained within the bounds of one's imagination)
And time. Half an hour to puzzle out how to buy Spidey's super
abilities is something I can't afford. With MSH, there aren't a whole
lot of points to track. Just assign FASERIP scores, set power levels,
write up a background, and go.
>Ah, okay. Sorry to include the entire previous article here but didn't want to
>make it look as if I was selectively editing. :) Anyhow.. I must say that I
>am not familiar with MS or GURPS so can't comment upon their good or badpoints
>and won't even try. On the other hand, a lot of this looks to be like a
>fanatic MS-player (where have I heard that before? oh yeah..) who really
>doesn't know a lot about Champs. I can't see a single argument that is
>supported in the slightest by any example or facts, and there are quite a few
>sweeping generalizations and that are unsupported.
For my own experiences, I thought that a GM with tons of super-hero
rpg experience could run an excellent campaign with Champions -- there
is a lot of flexibility there.
However, for most of us, who don't have a lot of time to create
villains by a points scheme, MSH gives you a quick and dirty (hi,
GURPS mages!) style of shrpg.
In other words: Less filling, tastes great.
:)
--
Bruce W. Onder on...@isi.edu
Wiggle on the bottom Wiggle on the top Wiggle up the middle
And laugh a lot
Cause I've been living in a Wiggly World.
Donald Tsang
>In article <13...@helios.TAMU.EDU> mdw...@rigel.tamu.edu writes:
>>>In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
>>as per the STR chart (pg. 173, CHAMPIONS 4th ed. or Hero System Rulesbook).
>>Taking the mass of the earth as 5.98 x 10^21 metric tons (The Concord Desk
>>Encyclopedia), the STR necessary to lift this much mass should be
>>2,445,403,952. Of course this assumes that "a world" can be approximated
>It is quite a bit less than that. The actual figure is around 450. 2 ^
>500,000,000 * 100 kg is a *very* large number. You'd probably have a good
>chance of being able to lift the universe with that number(a very bizarre
>concept indeed :-)
Err... okay, so my math was off... 5.98 x 10^22 times the normal lifting
capacity (for Str 10). So log base 2 of 5.98 x 10^22 is... 75.66
So it actually takes 390 Strength to lift the Earth (err, in Earth Gravity.
Hmm...)
Of course, it *is* kinda strange that this only does 78 dice of damage...
Certainly different from the 24.5 Billion ST that GURPS Supers (I) requires.
(but then, you do about 6 billion dice of swing damage with this much ST,
or 3 billion dice of thrust damage...)
And for 4x as much mass, you would need 10 more Hero Strength, and you
would need another 24.5 Billion ST in GURPS...
>>P.S. The number 2,445,403,952 is now the property of Stanglin Publications, a
>> subsidiary of Stanglin Enterprises as per U.S. copyright law, all rights
>> reserved.
And the number that is approximately ten times that (24,454,039,520 +/- 100)
is still part of the public domain. :)
So there. Pbbbbbbbbbbbth!
Donald Tsang
ts...@june.cs.washington.edu
Kirsten C. Jacobus
If you want to have a SHRPG that doesn't have lots of mechantics, etc.
Try the ZEN role-playing game. It consists of a blank booklet and a bland
(I mean blank) die. Set your characters and genre. Whenever a rules aru
argument comes up, the GM decides. That's taking MSH to its logical con-
clusion, yes?
Pardon the errors, but the telnet I'm using (not at my ordinary spot) won't
support the delete key--yes, it's horrible, but I'mg doing it all for free.)
Mike O'Connor
both have their place. Both have their problems. Both have their
benefits.
In article <1991Mar20.1...@wam.umd.edu> ben...@wam.umd.edu (Jeff Cohen ) writes:
:Which is the best? I don't know. Which do I prefer? Marvel. Why?
Then Marvel is the best for you... "best" is not that objective.
: I've looked through gurps basic), and couldn't stand D.C. based on
: what I felt was a silly stat system.)
Agreed. The DC stat system isn't at all to my tastes, but it reflects
DC comics rather well... mebbe it's why I prefer Marvel comics. Hmm...
:1) Marvel is simpler than champions. Ninety plus percent of the game
: can be run using 1 table and the character's sheets.
True. However, the table falls apart at high and low extremes, and
the game is much more a matter of random dice rolling than not. Some
people like this, and some don't.
:2) Marvel's karma system. Instead of exp's, marvel super heros earn
: karma points. As per normal, these can be spent on skills. However,
: they can also be used to modify die rolls. For example, Aunt May is
Something I read in a Dragon a long time ago that I adapted for
Champions:
Each Experience point in Champions can be traded, instantly, for 3d6
Luck with three sixes rolled.
: plummeting from a building, and here webslingin' nephew swings out to
: catch her before she goes KER-SPLAT! Looking at the table, the G.M.
: decides spidey needs a green result (results from worst to best are:
: white, green, yellow, red), which means spidey needs a 25 or better
: (the systemp uses d100). 75% may sound good to you, but this is
: Aunt May! So, spidey says "karma for a green", and then rolls the
Aunt May, however, by virtue of being a good person, probably has
zillions of Karma and doesn't need Spidey's help. If she spends
enough Karma, she can kill Galactus! :)
: dice. If he rolls 25 and over, she's saved, and spidey spends 10
: karma (just for announcing the use of karma). If the roll is less,
: spidey pays enough karma to make up the difference and Voila! he
: makes it anyway.
:
: Why do I think this system is so great? Because it gives the characters
: the chance to really feel like super-heros. They know that when the
Personally, it makes me feel like a dice roller rolling on the same
stupid table again and again, playing (in all likelihood) a canned
character.
: chips are down, and Apocalypse is ready to release his deadly plague
: on mankind, that Havok can make that patented one-in-a-million shot
: that will fuse the control pods, and that Wolverine can make that oh-
: so-long leap across the chasm and slice the wiring before Apocalypse
: can trigger the device manually.
Most of the villians in Marvel never seem to use their Karma
effectively, or some of these heroes would be in a lot of trouble.
: All the characters have to do is spend their karma wisely.
:
:3) System Flavor. This is much more of a personal feeling, so I hesitate
: to add it; but, I argue that there is a different feel in playing the
: same type of characters in different system's. Thus, I feel a 10th
: level AD&D fighter, a 20th level Rolemaster fighter, and a mercenary
: seargent in warhammer all have the same relative 'power', but still
: feel vastly different in their respective systems.
:
: In the same vein, spider-man in marvel seems to feel more, well,
: 'spidey-ish' than the same character translated into champions.
When you have a game system optimized for one set of comic book
characters, of COURSE those characters are going to fit better in that
game than any other. Spidey wouldn't be very effective in a Champions
campaign for the amount of points that it would cost to design him.
With Marvel, though, parity between characters isn't all that
important. This makes the dice-playing all the more annoying.
: Said in another way (and probably closer to my meaning) take a
: new player, let them play a marvel character and a champions
: character, and they will claim that they 'felt' more like a super
: hero in marvel than in champions. I've done just this with maybe
: 10 people, not enough to draw conclusions, but enough to notice
: a pattern. In every case (including a few who don't like comic
: characters and think they are silly) they felt that marvel made them
: FEEL more like a super-hero.
Having played and run both:
1. MSH works once in a while. After a while -- a couple sessions
max., it starts getting annoying. You get the feeling that you're not
really going anywhere. Then you feel much less heroic. It is
EXCELLENT for beginners, though.
2. Champs has a higher learning curve, and is not so simple that
you've mastered the game after one or one hundred sessions. However,
the characters don't come across as being canned, and there is more
parity between players. Who wants to play a Cyclops for an extended
period of time when one could be playing Thor?
: Obviously, the GM and the players have a lot to do with the feel of
: a game, but I contend that, all else being equal, marvel's system
: feels more like a super-hero system than champions.
Hmm... I agree to disagree. I have nothing against MSH once in a
while, but a whole campaign of it would bore me real quick.
...Mike
Internet: m...@ais.org
Domain UUCP: m...@ttardis.UUCP
Bang UUCP: ...!uunet!sharkey!cfctech!ttardis!mjo
Dave Flowers
>Donald Tsang (ts...@cs.washington.edu) writes...
>>
>>So to lift a world, you still need some ridiculous strength (in the tens
>>of thousands). In Champions, I believe the figure is around 110-120.
>
> I will have to disagree. A STR of 120 will only lift eight cruisers
>as per the STR chart (pg. 173, CHAMPIONS 4th ed. or Hero System Rulesbook).
>Taking the mass of the earth as 5.98 x 10^21 metric tons (The Concord Desk
>Encyclopedia), the STR necessary to lift this much mass should be
>2,445,403,952. Of course this assumes that "a world" can be approximated
>by the earth, lifting in earth-normal gravity, that the world won't fall around
>this poor character, that my math is correct, etc.
Now, I hate to flame someone for poor math (after all, you'll just die out
eventually), so take this as an informative post (:-), not a flame.
STR to lift Earth (approx. Earth as 5.98^21 metric tons) is
ln(5.98^22)
10 + 5 * ----------- = 388.312817860 (approx.)
ln(2)
As this is significantly less than 2.4 billion, I felt a need to post.
Dave Flowers
Founding Member E.C.N.G.
Wanderer
>I have never seen DC Heroes, so I will not include this in the following.
>My knowledge of Champions and GURPS Supers is severely limited, but I do,
>however, have friends that possesses these systems, and they agree with me
>on this point: If you really want to play a great game of super heroes,
>play TSR's Marvel Superheroes(advanced). The atmosphere, enhanced by the
>enormous amount of background material, is like in no other game I have ever
>played before.
>Like Call is THE horror game, we have been discussing why Marvel Superheroes
>is THE game of superheroes (in our opinion of course).
>We have come up with the following reasons:
> The background material for MS, supplied by thousands of comics, is not
> even remotely matched by Champs, and GURPS has not even got this
> backup. In my opinion, this is a mayor influencing factor.
Sorry? You're trying to say that Champs isn't able to use the wealth of
information supplied by Marvel comics? Pretty bizarre reasoning but as long
as your using it might as well follow it through... Marvel has a wealth of
information and background material supplied by Marvel Comics, but is severely
limited by not being able to use background material found in other comics.
Champions, however, is equally capable of using material from any comic book
(tho some I don't know why you'd want to <- PERSONAL OPINION)
> A conversion of Marvel Comics Super Heroes into the Champs system
> would require some hard work, and conversion into the GURPS system
> simply isn't possible. This is reason #2.
Conversion of Marvel Comics Super Heroes game into Champs, I dunno...
conversion of Marvel Comics super heroes & villains, however, is quite simple.
I've done just that while bored ('ho hum nothing to do for the next half hour
I wonder how Spider Man would look in Champs...'). I must say however that
most Marvel super types can easily get very expensive. *shrug* If everybody
wants to play at that kindof game anyway, no big deal.
> In MS, you can really play a hero (after all, that is the reason to
> play a Superhero RPG, "I absorb the energy from the nuclear
> explosion, now what?"). The possibilities in Champs are more
> limited, and in GURPS, they simply aren't there.
I'm sorry, how are the possibilities limited? If you're going to make
generalizations at _least_ provide examples, if not facts.
> Really, GURPS is a great system, but you can't make a TRUE superhero
> and still play by the rules. The typical GURPS superhero is made
> out of 500 points (I think). If you would like to play a fairly
> powerfull Marvel Comics Super Hero with it's own limitations, you
> could easily spend 10 or 100 times the alotted amount.
> The limitation in GURPS is simply, that it is too realistic.
> However, realism in an RPG is a matter of definition, and my
> definition of realism in a superhero RPG is that you should be
> able to dodge laserfire (with a high agility),
Champs: dodge maneuver +3 to defensive combat value, high dex, extra combat
levels... seems to be pretty simple to me.
> survive free falls
> from beyond the atmosphere (because you're tough),
Any standard brick in a 250 pt Champs game that can't survive a fall from earth
orbit has some serious problems (or was specifically designed that way, an
important distinction).
> enter hyperspace
> by own means (because you have the Phoenix Force, or ride a sliver
> coated surf board)
Sounds like Teleport, Extra-dimensional Travel, Flight, or FTL Travel along
with Life Support: Vacuum/High Pressure & Self Contained Breathing. Depends on
the effect and exact type of power you want I guess.
> and get ripped up by swords or claws and still
> survive (because of your healing factor).
Regeneration.
> In the typical definition of realism, this is far out, but the GURPS
> definition of realism is almost constant throughout the system,
> so the Supers aspect suffers on the others account.
> Champs fall in between these two, I think, but my limited knowledge
> pledges me not to try to elaborate further.
Thank you.
> Many rules in MS defies what we call natural. This reflects the comics.
And other games (Champs & Gurps) don't?
> Villains and Heroes can shout at one another and still be miles
> apart. Everybody can be exposed to chemicals or radiation and
> gain from the encounter (villains tend to be unlucky, and then
> blames the heroes for their disaster). Robots look human.
> Man's technical level is typical 1990's technology, but most heroes
> or villains with a little brains can make teleport-devices and
> space-shuttles. There is nothing to do but accept these conditions.
Sorry but I don't see anything unique to MS here.
> In some mystic way, the system tends to reflect these Marvel
> Comics Super Heroes Quirks with great skill.
I assume you are referring to the equivalent of Champions psychological & other
disadvantages... dunno about the mysticism tho.
> So if you like the
> comics, you'll like the system. But if you don't like the comics,
> play something else.
Well put.
> Last but not least, there is the unlimited amount of possibilities
> contained within the system. You can play anything from old lady
> (possible in every system, but not particularly funny in MS)
> to selfproclaimed god (NOT possible in every system, reasonably
> funny, surprisingly interesting).
Possible in Champs, whether you are referring to playing Joe Normal who thinks
he is a god to an actual god. I've gotta say that playing Omnipotent Guy can
get pretty old fast, tho. Better to play a powerful character who happens to
be a god but isn't all-powerful (a Thor clone, for example).
> Anything within these extremes
> are both possible and easily contained within the system.
And within Champs also.
> TSR have made a great deal of publications to MS over the years.
> Together with the boxed set, they provide over 300 different
> powers, thousands of heroes and villains, all contained within
> the Marvel Comics Super Heroes Magazines, a fully developed
> magic system and lots 'n' lots of hardware.
> And you can easily enhance the system yourself.
>I don't know if this will help anybody or enrage others. What you have read
>is the opinions of a fanatic MS-player. In my opinion MS is the best SHRPG
>ever made, and the possibilities within any other SH system is merely
>contained within the bounds of MS. It has it all.
*amused smile* Really? Name some characters from Marvel that you don't
think can be duplicated in Champs. (side note: the possibilities within any
gaming system are merely contained within the bounds of one's imagination)
>I will not claim to be omnipotent in this area. The listed arguments may
>hold for other systems as well, but MS has a certain unique atmosphere.
>PS: This is not the opinions of some crazed powerplayer. I love RM above
> all else, even MS, and keeps a strict environment, but sometimes
> you just have to let go.
>Shade and Sweet Water to all
> --Fanadring
Ah, okay. Sorry to include the entire previous article here but didn't want to
Cort Odekirk
I have to disagree, and for exactly the reason you found it to be
superior. The marvel game depends heavily on you using the marvel
universe. For those of us who play a more "realistic" or street level
game the marvel universe is inapproriate. Why worry when you know
the Avengers or the X-men are out there just waiting to pull you fat
out of the fire. Don't get too concerned over the villain, we've all
read the comics and know exactly what their powers and weaknesses are.
In addition, I don't know how much they've changed the system, but I
have a hard time finding respect for a game that rates its power levels
with terms like Awsome Strength and Amazing Dexterity. (Does this mean
the Amazing (50) Spiderman is more powerfull than the only Increadable
(30?) Hulk?
If you want a good game with no restrictions, try Villains and Vigilanties,
the same freedom of power definition but without the build in structures of the
Marvel Universe.
Personally my favorite was Superworld, sort of an enhanced champions put out
by Chaosium. But they refused to market it and it died so I went to Champions,
which in its latest edition is probobly the best of the point based system.
Particularly with some of the Superworld Power Advantages and Disads added in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muties I love them, Yes I do! | Cort Odekirk
Baked or fried or in a stew. | Co...@Sumax.Seattleu.edu
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>Which is the best? I don't know. Which do I prefer? Marvel. Why?
[stuff deleted]
> Said in another way (and probably closer to my meaning) take a
> new player, let them play a marvel character and a champions
> character, and they will claim that they 'felt' more like a super
> hero in marvel than in champions. I've done just this with maybe
> 10 people, not enough to draw conclusions, but enough to notice
> a pattern. In every case (including a few who don't like comic
> characters and think they are silly) they felt that marvel made them
> FEEL more like a super-hero.
> Obviously, the GM and the players have a lot to do with the feel of
> a game, but I contend that, all else being equal, marvel's system
> feels more like a super-hero system than champions.
I feel just the oposite, for 2 reasons.
(1) The champions speed system. At the power level we play, a
hero will get 5 or 6 actions every time mr. Joe Average
gets 2. In marvel Quicksilver may be very good at getting
from one place to the other, but in a fight he gets exactly
the same number of punches as anybody else.
(2) TSR's infamous IGNORE skill resolution system. What do you
you do when 2 characters are using their skills against
each other? In runequest and harnmaster both get to roll,
in rolemaster and champions you subtract the skill of
the defender from that of the attacker, in TSR games
you ignore the skill of the defender. It does not matter
how skilled a fighter you are, if mr. J. Average makes
a punch against you, he has the exact same chance of
hitting as if you were another mr. Average. If you want
to use your skill for defense, you can not attack that
round. (This is an improvement over AD&D, where you can
not use your skill to defend at all.) In our campaign
we just found this too silly, we played with this rule
modification from day one: if you know the attack is
comming, you get a dodge roll. This does not cost you any
action.
Klaus Kristiansen
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
I would NOT recommend marvel superheroes. Note that I have not played
the advanced version, it might be better.
The main problem with marvel is the way you roll up characters.
You roll for each of 7 stats, for ressources, for number of powers
for the category of each power. You then choose your powers within
the categories rolled and roll for the "strength" of each. You
also roll for talents. There are three problems with this.
One: you can get some very odd characters. My character had fighting
(a stat) 50 (he will hit almost every time), strength 6 (no one
is going to care if he hits or not) and wrestling talent (he may
use his strength rather than his figting to hit, if he wish).
Two: you may get someone with a few weak powers, or someone wiyh many powers,
some of witch at a high level. The roll for categories also might
mean that you waste some powers. My character got two BAD (Body
Alteration Defensive), there are only two powers in this group,
one of which is useless.
Three: high stats do not count as powers. My characters reasoning was
so high (40? it is several years since I last played) that if a UFO
crashed in his back yard, he could repair it even though the technology
was totally alien. This is NOT a power. The ability to lift a battleship
would not be a power either. (My character had the enginering talent, so
he could actually make improvements while repairing. Having the combination
of high reasoning and enginering was just good luck, it all
comes from dierolls).
Klaus Kristiansen
Bruce Onder
>If you want to have a SHRPG that doesn't have lots of mechantics, etc.
>Try the ZEN role-playing game. It consists of a blank booklet and a bland
>(I mean blank) die. Set your characters and genre. Whenever a rules aru
>argument comes up, the GM decides. That's taking MSH to its logical con-
>clusion, yes?
Sure, but ZEN doesn't have the background material that MSH does.
Well, it does, but then again it doesn't.
>Pardon the errors, but the telnet I'm using (not at my ordinary spot) won't
>support the delete key--yes, it's horrible, but I'mg doing it all for free.)
Which brings up the question: Who would pay for it?
:)
Brewster
Bruce Onder
> Preface: I love Champions. I like Marvel Super Heroes. I feel that
>both have their place. Both have their problems. Both have their
>benefits.
>In article <1991Mar20.1...@wam.umd.edu> ben...@wam.umd.edu (Jeff Cohen ) writes:
>:1) Marvel is simpler than champions. Ninety plus percent of the game
>: can be run using 1 table and the character's sheets.
>
>True. However, the table falls apart at high and low extremes, and
>the game is much more a matter of random dice rolling than not. Some
>people like this, and some don't.
Most games suffer from this. I think the problem stems more from the
fact that everything tends to just get weird if someone has an
exceptionally high or low ability.
>: plummeting from a building, and here webslingin' nephew swings out to
>: catch her before she goes KER-SPLAT! Looking at the table, the G.M.
>: decides spidey needs a green result (results from worst to best are:
>: white, green, yellow, red), which means spidey needs a 25 or better
>: (the systemp uses d100). 75% may sound good to you, but this is
>: Aunt May! So, spidey says "karma for a green", and then rolls the
>
>Aunt May, however, by virtue of being a good person, probably has
>zillions of Karma and doesn't need Spidey's help. If she spends
>enough Karma, she can kill Galactus! :)
"Take that, you bad man!"
>: dice. If he rolls 25 and over, she's saved, and spidey spends 10
>: karma (just for announcing the use of karma). If the roll is less,
>: spidey pays enough karma to make up the difference and Voila! he
>: makes it anyway.
>:
>: Why do I think this system is so great? Because it gives the characters
>: the chance to really feel like super-heros. They know that when the
>
>Personally, it makes me feel like a dice roller rolling on the same
>stupid table again and again, playing (in all likelihood) a canned
>character.
Huh? Having one simple resolution system makes you feel like a dice
roller? That's the opposite way I feel. The more charts I have to
index, the more removed I am from role-playing.
>: chips are down, and Apocalypse is ready to release his deadly plague
>: on mankind, that Havok can make that patented one-in-a-million shot
>: that will fuse the control pods, and that Wolverine can make that oh-
>: so-long leap across the chasm and slice the wiring before Apocalypse
>: can trigger the device manually.
>
>Most of the villians in Marvel never seem to use their Karma
>effectively, or some of these heroes would be in a lot of trouble.
Isn't that more of a problem with the GM, than the system?
>: In the same vein, spider-man in marvel seems to feel more, well,
>: 'spidey-ish' than the same character translated into champions.
>
>When you have a game system optimized for one set of comic book
>characters, of COURSE those characters are going to fit better in that
>game than any other. Spidey wouldn't be very effective in a Champions
>campaign for the amount of points that it would cost to design him.
>With Marvel, though, parity between characters isn't all that
>important. This makes the dice-playing all the more annoying.
I still don't understand why the dice rolling is more annoying to you
in one game system than in another.
>Having played and run both:
>
>1. MSH works once in a while. After a while -- a couple sessions
>max., it starts getting annoying. You get the feeling that you're not
>really going anywhere. Then you feel much less heroic. It is
>EXCELLENT for beginners, though.
>
>2. Champs has a higher learning curve, and is not so simple that
>you've mastered the game after one or one hundred sessions. However,
>the characters don't come across as being canned, and there is more
>parity between players. Who wants to play a Cyclops for an extended
>period of time when one could be playing Thor?
Lots of people, me included. I'd prefer to play Spider-Man than
Superman. Being indestructible (or practically so) doesn't interest me.
>: Obviously, the GM and the players have a lot to do with the feel of
>: a game, but I contend that, all else being equal, marvel's system
>: feels more like a super-hero system than champions.
>
>Hmm... I agree to disagree. I have nothing against MSH once in a
>while, but a whole campaign of it would bore me real quick.
Fair enough.
Aaron Sher
The overwhelming favorite was Champions, then GURPS Supers. Marvel was
a distant third, and then there were a few others that I can't recall
because only one person mentioned them...
Of course, I'm currently in the process of writing my own superhero game
(with a couple of other people), and it is FAR better than ANY such product
on the market today. (Biased? Who's biased? :-))
Phrixus, Lvl 1, Room 15, S3
The Nefarious Scotto
>I would NOT recommend marvel superheroes. Note that I have not played
>the advanced version, it might be better.
>The main problem with marvel is the way you roll up characters.
>You roll for each of 7 stats, for ressources, for number of powers
>for the category of each power. You then choose your powers within
>the categories rolled and roll for the "strength" of each. You
>also roll for talents. There are three problems with this.
*Rolling* up a Marvel Character? Yeah, about 5 years ago I saw the
Roll-up rules for Marvel and trashed it. Our group simply made up
interesting character ideas, and assigned stats to them. As a result,
we branched away from the typical "Marvel" world for the most part,
playing all of our own characters.
The "Just-make-em-up" meathod of creating a character does have good
and bad points associated with them. The good was that we could pretty
much create whatever characters or plotlines to fit a situation. The
GM could throw together a couple thugs, and a couple of villains within
a few seconds and *bingo* instant adventure!
The simple character system allowed our world to be very diverse.
We ended the campaign many interesting character ideas. Every player in
the campaign was encouraged to create heroes, villains, and other minor
NPC's. It seemed to work pretty well.
Of course, on the bad side, we had to be careful to not abuse the
power we gave ourself. (We created a "junior" team to get away from this
sort of Powergaming..) Power abuse didn't seem to be an issue very often,
though.
Also, the campaign somewhat stagnated in the Karma system of
advancement. I don't think I ever saw someone increase a stat by using
Karma. Usually the character went through the archetypal "Radiation
experiment" and changed around his character idea when he wanted a change.
It worked at the time, I guess.
Two points:
1. I really don't expect everyone now to go out and buy a copy of
Marvel SHRPG, but it is a pretty good system, if you like that sort of thing.
Lots of stuff to use and lots of flexibility. (Oh, you want the Power to
control Probability Fields like the Scarlet Witch? Jzing! Granted!
You want Super Adrenaline-powered Strength? No problem! It takes about four
seconds to write down the Ability and the Power rank, and perhaps a short
description. Really good game for beginners..
2. Yeah, I know. We've played around with the rules a lot. To take
a quote from Lion Rampant's _Ars_Magica_: "The only hard-and-fast rule is:
There are no hard-and-fast rules.." (or something like that.) Rolling up
a Marvel character can yield pretty silly results. Just have fun and
make-em-up.
Well, I've gotta run. I have to create a GURPS character using
the Random Roll-up Rules....... :)
Scott W. Starkey
Bruce Onder
>For the person who stated that he would prefer one chart over many, since
>it made things less of a look-up and roll game. HERO/CHAMPIONS USES NO
>CHARTS.
>
>(At least not for combat).
>Is that straight?
Well, yes. No charts.
Sixteen tons of formulae. I'd prefer one nice, easy-to-read chart to
all those computations (yes, I know, many of them are done at
character generation, but that's not really a feature for me, it's a
bug).
Kirsten C. Jacobus
I have one problem with the lengthy post 'plauding MSH--WHY MAY I ONLY PLAY
THE MARVEL INTERPRETATION OF COMICS? The tone was rather bluntly that Marvel
has the only superheroic background in existence, and that anything else
doesn't deserve to be called superheroic, and if you don't want to play MSH
then go play D&D, you little shit.
What about Charleton? What about First, Comico, and other Independents which
all have their own backgrounds that may or may not be well-modeled in MSH?
Stop being so parochial in your outlook.
One more thing. I've tried modelling character conceptions in MSH, Champions,
DC, GURPS Supers, and ZEN. Of the three, ZEN is the easiest, but the hardest.
(Yes, it's three, in a zen sort of way.) Of them all DC is the hardest to
work with. GURPS is limited to the "graphic novel" end of things, but John
Constantine can be a lot of fun. Aside from sheer power problems, MSH gave
me the most problem simply because I am not a Marvel Zombie, so I cannot use
their comparisons to create characters. Also, the system really lends to
simply dropping it all and go zen, anyway. (Glad I didn't buy it.) I tend
to prefer SKILL characters, something MSH is very weak in.
Bill Biesty
-> karma points. As per normal, these can be spent on skills. However,
-> they can also be used to modify die rolls. For example, Aunt May is
-> plummeting from a building, and here webslingin' nephew swings out to
-> catch her before she goes KER-SPLAT! Looking at the table, the G.M.
-> decides spidey needs a green result (results from worst to best are:
-> white, green, yellow, red), which means spidey needs a 25 or better
-> (the systemp uses d100). 75% may sound good to you, but this is
-> Aunt May! So, spidey says "karma for a green", and then rolls the
-> dice. If he rolls 25 and over, she's saved, and spidey spends 10
-> karma (just for announcing the use of karma). If the roll is less,
-> spidey pays enough karma to make up the difference and Voila! he
-> makes it anyway.
->
-> Why do I think this system is so great? Because it gives the characters
-> the chance to really feel like super-heros. They know that when the
-> chips are down, and Apocalypse is ready to release his deadly plague
-> on mankind, that Havok can make that patented one-in-a-million shot
-> that will fuse the control pods, and that Wolverine can make that oh-
-> so-long leap across the chasm and slice the wiring before Apocalypse
-> can trigger the device manually.
Vistory Games' James Bond 007 has a similar rule which when I read it,
I immediately liked. Like the color scheme above 007 has a four level
success system. Only instead of expending enough karma to make the score,
the player can use hero points which s/he announces before the success role
to improve the roll. E.g 006 needs a critical to disarm the villain without
setting off the magentically armed explosive. She decides to use 2 hero points.
Rolls of success and failure get converted to criticals, fumble gets converted
to success. If a critical is rolled both hero points are used anyway.
Starting characters got 7 points and got new ones whenever they criticaled
naturally.
The complete randomness of the die just makes for unpleasant gaming.
This adds a lot more, like increase attention/concentration on the part of
the PC. I like it.
Bill
Kirsten C. Jacobus
Christofer Bertani
>Which is the best? I don't know. Which do I prefer? Marvel. Why?
>(Warning: before I go on, I have run both marvel basic and advanced,
> have played/run a little champs, have never seen gurps supers (though
> I've looked through gurps basic), and couldn't stand D.C. based on
> what I felt was a silly stat system.)
Okay... I've played Champions pretty thoroughly over the
last four years (starting from scratch, but with help from more
experienced players) and Marvel Heroes for about a year amd a half
before that. Only Marvel basic - the advanced stuff wasn't out.
>1) Marvel is simpler than champions. Ninety plus percent of the game
> can be run using 1 table and the character's sheets.
In Champions you don't even need the table...
>2) Marvel's karma system. Instead of exp's, marvel super heros earn
> karma points. As per normal, these can be spent on skills. However,
> they can also be used to modify die rolls.
> [Aunt May falls off building]
> So, spidey says "karma for a green", and then rolls the
> dice. If he rolls 25 and over, she's saved, and spidey spends 10
> karma (just for announcing the use of karma). If the roll is less,
> spidey pays enough karma to make up the difference and Voila! he
> makes it anyway.
Karma is also used to improve the character, but this is
*incredibly* expensive - it costs, I believe, 200 Karma just
to buy the right to increase a stat. Basic operating costs, as
it were. *Then* you spend hundreds more to improve your character.
The result; Karma is used exclusively to help die rolls in critical
situations. Now, you are supposed to make more Karma in a typical
game than you spend in the course of that game. You quickly build
up a pool of Karma. Once it reaches 100, there is nothing you can't
do. After about six months (I think) of playing, I had 260 Karma.
I could make any roll I chose. There was no suspense left.
> Why do I think this system is so great? Because it gives the characters
> the chance to really feel like super-heros. They know that when the
> chips are down, and Apocalypse is ready to release his deadly plague
> on mankind, that Havok can make that patented one-in-a-million shot
> that will fuse the control pods, and that Wolverine can make that oh-
> so-long leap across the chasm and slice the wiring before Apocalypse
> can trigger the device manually.
Like I just said, the suspense is gone if you can guarantee
success. In Champions, even with a skill roll of [20-], (20 or
less on 3d6) an 18 is always a failure. You hold your breath while
the dice rattle over the table. In Marvel, I just say 'Karma for
red' and all I'm rolling for is to see how much it will cost me.
No suspense.
>3) System Flavor. This is much more of a personal feeling, so I hesitate
[Personal opinion here - nothing to argue about.]
> Said in another way (and probably closer to my meaning) take a
> new player, let them play a marvel character and a champions
> character, and they will claim that they 'felt' more like a super
> hero in marvel than in champions. I've done just this with maybe
> 10 people, not enough to draw conclusions, but enough to notice
> a pattern. In every case (including a few who don't like comic
> characters and think they are silly) they felt that marvel made them
> FEEL more like a super-hero.
If you let someone play Cyclops or Wolverine, yes they might
'feel' more like a superhero. Both of these have a lot of experience,
and if the player reads Marvel comics, he knows the background of
both of them. In Champions, a new player usually starts with a
200-250 point new character. Inexperienced. Can't bounce eye-beams
off fifty-'leven objects before hitting. Experienced characters
are expensive. Did the champions characters you used in the test
have the extensive background of a Marvel character? Did you use
regular Marvel characters, or use brand new ones you created yourselves?
Did you set the Marvel game in the Marvel universe (which it is
designed for) or try the system against a totally new universe, or
even another comic universe, say DC's? I suspect (again, all I
know is in the paragraph above) that a lot had to do with the
extensive Marvel background.
> a) The reason I stayed away from the DC system was its stat system.
> Each point in a stat was worth twice the last. For example,
> an 8 strength was twice as strong as a 7 strength. The average human
> had a strength of 3 (I think). Superman had a strength of 50! This,
> I felt, was excessive and just plain silly. Just think, find
> Superman's new arch-enemy, the man with a 51 strength. Being twice
> as strong as superman, he...like I said, I find this all silly.
Yeah, too granular...
>Jeff Cohen ben...@wam.umd.edu
Chris Bertani chri...@cobalt.cco.caltech.edu
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You do remember." Soulcatcher laughed again. "I'm so glad. We're going to
have such fun. The whole world thinks we're dead. You can get away with
anything when you're dead." (_Dreams_of_Steel_ by Glen Cook)
Christofer Bertani
>Preface: I love Champions. I like Marvel Super Heroes. I feel that
>both have their place. Both have their problems. Both have their
>benefits.
>1. MSH works once in a while. After a while -- a couple sessions
>max., it starts getting annoying. You get the feeling that you're not
>really going anywhere. Then you feel much less heroic. It is
>EXCELLENT for beginners, though.
Especially when your character never changes. Also,
playing with established Marvel characters, any change you make to
the universe moves it away from the one in the comics. (Though
the Marvel universe is quite resilient.) What do you do if
the writers of the comics make a major change in the character?
Follow suit, or declare an alternate universe?
>2. Champs has a higher learning curve, and is not so simple that
>you've mastered the game after one or one hundred sessions. However,
>the characters don't come across as being canned, and there is more
>parity between players. Who wants to play a Cyclops for an extended
>period of time when one could be playing Thor?
And there is more to Champions. Marvel is simple, and
once you have learned it, you say 'what next?' There is no next.
In Champions, you start writing characters, and explore the
system, learn how to do interesting new things with advantages
and limitations.
> ...Mike
>Internet: m...@ais.org
Christofer Bertani
>In article <84...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jac...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kirsten C. Jacobus) writes:
>>HERO/CHAMPIONS USES NO CHARTS.
>Well, yes. No charts.
>Sixteen tons of formulae. I'd prefer one nice, easy-to-read chart to
Which 'formulae'? Champions requires a basic grasp
of multiplication and division, nothing more. Companies
*give* away four-function calculators that do that.
>Bruce W. Onder on...@isi.edu
Mary Kuhner
> Like I just said, the suspense is gone if you can guarantee
>success. In Champions, even with a skill roll of [20-], (20 or
>less on 3d6) an 18 is always a failure. You hold your breath while
>the dice rattle over the table. In Marvel, I just say 'Karma for
>red' and all I'm rolling for is to see how much it will cost me.
>No suspense.
Shadowrun has a similar mechanic, 2 Karma (the scale is higher in
Marvel, I guess that befits a superhero game....) for an automatic
success. You can accomplish anything that requires only one success to
work (most tests, except combat and some spells) or spend more Karma for
multiple successes.
However, it also has 1 Karma to reroll the entire die roll (1 or more
dice, usually 4-8) except for those dice which were already successes.
This seems to us to be preferable; ridiculously hard tasks remain
ridiculous, but the character does have a chance to improve his/her
situation.
So we don't, in general, allow the automatic successes; a couple of
times in the campaign it has seemed appropriate both to player and to
GM, but in general we restrict ourselves to rerolls. Much more dramatic
if you know you can fail.
(Shadowrun also has the idea that 2 Karma can buy off an *opponent's*
success, which we don't like either. I prefer the concept borrowed from
Glorantha that your divine favor can help you, but it can't directly
mess with the other person.)
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
MSH...@psuvm.psu.edu
I played V&V, MSH, Champs, and rolled up a character in DC... if you want
a good supers game....let me rephrase that...
A Simple and Fun Supers....MARVEL
(No fuss, no muss, beautifully colored charts, you can play within 10 minutes
of opening the box...even drunk, as an aquaintance states)
PROBLEMs: No advancement capable, really...easy to be munkinized....
Maybe too much background...too many characters to keep an eye on
.
The first and one of the best V&V
(Elegant...good sense of verssimilitude....rule book has complete 'Laws of
th' Land...rules/suggestions for Trials, super prisions, etc...good book)
PROBLEMS: As 1st supers game...relies alot on D&D attack charts...easily re
tified though...and super power interactions are weird...ex.: The most powerful
(damaging) powerblast is much easier to hit with than punching someone...)
The Supers of Choice.....CHAMPS
(good system, very flexible, very open, good realism)
PROBLEMS: Too open...point-engineering encouraged, not enuf "Help" for camp
aigns I think....not as much as the previous 2)
DC Heroes...Like the universe, hate the game. 'Nuff said.
Rebis (chad underkoffler)
Bruce Onder
>on...@ISI.EDU (Bruce Onder) writes:
>>Sixteen tons of formulae. I'd prefer one nice, easy-to-read chart to
>
> Which 'formulae'? Champions requires a basic grasp
>of multiplication and division, nothing more. Companies
>*give* away four-function calculators that do that.
Yeah, and if I want to play Captain Calculator, I'll whip out my
little Hewlett-Packard and paint the town red. No thanks. When I
role-play, the first thing that springs to mind is *not* the
multiplication tables.
Brewster