Pre-Order Vampire Revised Now!
WolfMail
You can now pre-order Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition on our website.
You can start at our homepage at http://www.white-wolf.com or go directly to
the order page at https://secure.white-wolf.com/interaction$/shop/catalog/V3PREORDER.html
(for those of you who know what you want).
You can also pre-order the Vampire: The Masquerade Limited Edition. This
package includes a copy of the main rule book and a Vampire Artbook with new
art commissioned for the Revised Edition. Both hardcover books will have a
black leatherette cover and silver foil lettering, much like the Book of Nod
(though again, it will be a hardcover, not the flimsy paper stock on the Book
of Nod). You also get a blood red bookmark. The two books will come in a
slip-case. We are only printing 2,500. Once they're gone, they're gone.
Pre-order now and guarentee yours.
Barring any printer problems, the books will ship (and be in stores) the week
of September 28th.
The new Vampire: The Masquerade will be $29.95.
The Vampire: The Masquerade Limited Edition will be $69.95.
Brad Butkovich
Direct Sales
White Wolf Publishing
--
****************
"I did not believe the phrase 'bodies piled in heaps' until I saw the
battlefield yesterday"
-Captain Emory Upton after the Battle of Antietam
Andrew
Edition's "Maine Rulebook" the...err...Revised Edition's rulebook? I know some of you may
roll your eyes, but I am planning on spending the money for this package, but if I get
screwed and get, say, the 2nd edition rulebook, I am going to be quite pissed.
Thanks
Andrew
Kevin Coons
>
> Edition's "Maine Rulebook" the...err...Revised Edition's rulebook? I know some of you
Hmm. I had no Idea that the state of Maine had a rulebook.
Sandy Goh
What are the revisons? is there a list anywhere?
Chris Jolley
> >You can now pre-order Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition on our website.
>
> What are the revisons? is there a list anywhere?
>
So far from WW has released These things:1. Rulebook Samples
WW has put up a sample of the 3ed version. The 2 sample pages are the Clan
Brujah template pages, it was the same as the 2ed version, except for a new
picture, all the information was the same, just reworded.
2. Artwork Samples
As for the new artwork they are sporting on the site, I dont like it. I think
that the old artwork is much better.
3. Charactersheet
WOW! (sarcastically) they changed the border, and title, that needed fixin'
(NOT!). Oh and look, they got rid of some old Abilities, and put some new crappy
one's in. This is what you hyped up?!?
here's the replacements:
Talents
Acting to Expression (Expression was covered under Acting, Empathy, Intimidation,
Leadership)
Skills
Music to Performance (Performance was covered under Acting, and Music)
Repair to Crafts (Crafts sounds to me like more of a Secondary Ability, Repair was
a common Ability, so now is it a Secondary one? "can you fix my car? NO, but I can
weave a basket!") (sorry, couldn't help myself with that one!)
Knowledges
Bureaucracy to Academics (If you wanted to put Academics in there you should have
replaced Science with it and made Science a Secondary Ability, Now do you have to
take a Secondary Ability to know how to deal with politicians?)
Virtues
They put both the Sabbat and Camerilla Virutes on the sheet
Humanity
They put both Humanity and Path of ______ on the sheet
Backgrounds/Disciplines
They swapped the locations. WHY?!?
Combat Chart
They got rid of it altogether, and replaced it with 11 lines for Merits and Flaws.
Again I ask WHY?!?
So far from what WW has shown of this 3rd version I'm not impressed at all. I only
hope that there is something that they are hiding, cause I know that there is no
way in hell I'm gonna pay $30 bucks for the same stuff reworded (screwed up) with
crappy new pics!
And as for the $80 Limited Edition book, yes having a leather cover is cool, but
if the information inside sucks, its still a waste of money in my mind.
Andrew
changing doesn't really need it, but as for the Brujah being "re worded" I disagree;
in the 2nd Ed., they talked more of them being punks and only punks, but in this
version, they talk of the "stereotypical brujah" as just that, and explain that "if
you want to go by stereoypes..." and also refer to such things as Utopia, the Anti
Tribu, et etc. They seemed to say that Brujah are not just punks, that some are
teachers, are intelligent, and that what they work for, be it anarchy or academics, is
fueld with passion from their hearts.
So anyway, I think that they expanded upon what they wrote in the 2nd Edition...And
no, I am not trying to start a flame, as this is merely my opinion...
Andrew
P.S. The Clan drawings are pretty nifty in my opinion, but I do like the black and
white in the 2nd Edition better, so I am glad that they aren't putting those color
drawings in with the Clan descriptions (the templates). But as for the short,
paragraph long descs. on their website, I feel that each drawing portrays the Clans
fairely well.
man...@my-dejanews.com
sa...@artica.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >You can now pre-order Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition on our website.
>
> What are the revisons? is there a list anywhere?
>
> >Direct Sales
> >White Wolf Publishing
Well just search this news group on deja news, they have been knocking around
here. As far as I know it includes:
A three-tiered combat and damage system akin to that of Trinity. Yes, your
mortals can now soak (some stuff)!
Refined dice pool splits -- no longer will "I hit him 100 times" get you 100
separate actions.
A system for reflexive actions such as soaking, spending blood points,
invoking line-of-sight Disciplines, etc that clarifies when you need to split
a dice pool and when such actions are considered "automatic."
Revised and reworked systems for morality, including Humanity and the
non-Sabbat Paths of Enlightenment.
Streamlined initiative, resulting in quicker combats.
Revised botch mechanics -- no longer does your chance of catastrophe increase
with the number of dice you roll for an action.
Merits and Flaws in the core rulebook.
Special rules for damamging the undead -- shooting a corpse doesn't do much
good, so picking a vampire off from 30 stories above probably isn't the best
option. Now you know why Inquisitors carry swords....
Revised Thaumaturgy and Necromancy (to better fit with Wraith), with clarified
paths and rituals for both.
The book also contains an update on the backstory of Vampire's World of
Darkness, as well as all 13 clans and their Disciplines, details on the sects,
Kindred history, notes on "the others" and antagonists and all manner of other
goodies. It's 312 pages hardbound.
a shake-up of the status quo: the Sabbat is making life difficult for American
Kindred, the Kuei-jin are making inroads on the West Coast, the Nosferatu
Justicar has been murdered, 14th and 15th Generation Kindred are popping up (a
sign of Gehena)
some of the clans are getting tweaked: the Assamite Curse has been lifted,
Gangrel are reconsidering their membership in the Camarilla, Malkavians are
less kooky and more scary (andthey have regained Dementation as a Clan
Discipline), Ravnos are more into being deceivers than perky Gypsies.
the June-December catalog entry for it mentions: "all-new information on the
changes that affect the clans, and on the beginning of the end of the
Camarilla."
I think thats it
Mant
‰
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Ivan Rajic
Reading this posting I'm having DarkAges flashbacks... Sounds like a mix
of the two Vampire main books.
: So far from WW has released These things:1. Rulebook Samples
: 2. Artwork Samples
: 3. Charactersheet
--
*------------------------------- Impaler Lord -------------------------------*
I sit and wait, in a state of grace. I am the Black Angel of Death, God
has given me this title. I load my gun, kissing each shell. My gun talks
to me, tells me things; I listen carefully, for my gun is wise. The time
of purification has come.
*------------------ http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~rajic --------------------*
Doug Kern
> > >You can now pre-order Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition on our
website.
> >
> > What are the revisons? is there a list anywhere?
> >
>
> So far from WW has released These things:1. Rulebook Samples
>
> WW has put up a sample of the 3ed version. The 2 sample pages are the Clan
> Brujah template pages, it was the same as the 2ed version, except for a new
> picture, all the information was the same, just reworded.
I disagree, the original entry in VtM 2nd ed was pretty skimpy and very
sterotypical. The new entry is a much broad showing of the, plus has stuff
on rants and raves. Looks like the took the old stuff and added stuff from
teh clanbook and the player's guide. Plus they ahve a nice bllodline
section for each clan.
> 2. Artwork Samples
>
> As for the new artwork they are sporting on the site, I dont like it.
I think
> that the old artwork is much better.
I like the new art work much better. The old artwork, while good, made
85% of every vampire look way too much like a teenager into body art. Not
there is anything worng with this, it just did not represent the average
member of a clan very well imo. And AI love the color pictures for the
Ventrue and Malkavain.
> Virtues
> They put both the Sabbat and Camerilla Virutes on the sheet
>
> Humanity
> They put both Humanity and Path of ______ on the sheet
>
> Backgrounds/Disciplines
> They swapped the locations. WHY?!?
>
> Combat Chart
> They got rid of it altogether, and replaced it with 11 lines for Merits
and Flaws.
> Again I ask WHY?!?
Many players like to use Merits and flaws to flesh out a charecter. The
old sheet had no room for them on teh basic character sheet. And if they
are included in the main book, the sheeter should have a place for them.
WW jkust put up Lasombra today, and I am very impressed, not only do the
Lasombra finally have a modern clan symbol, a pet peeve of mine that the
never did along with the Tzimisce, they also have more information on
Antitribu then any other place, even the clan book was pretty skimpy on
this. Also they mention a new Path in this entry.
--
Doug Kern
AKA Monocle
ICQ Page #:8793444
dke...@idt.net
Homepage: http://idt.net/~dkern2
Come visit the Shrine to Blackarachnia!: http://idt.net/~dkern2/Blackarachnia
Eric Langendorff
dke...@idt.net (Doug Kern) wrote:
> In article <35BEA0C3...@otn.net>, Chris Jolley <men...@otn.net> wrote:
>
> > Combat Chart
> > They got rid of it altogether, and replaced it with 11 lines for Merits
> and Flaws.
> > Again I ask WHY?!?
>
> Many players like to use Merits and flaws to flesh out a charecter. The
> old sheet had no room for them on teh basic character sheet. And if they
> are included in the main book, the sheeter should have a place for them.
Except that now there's no place for the "Other Traits." I very often
create characters without Merits or Flaws, so a great many times, I can
see the lines alotted for them on the new sheet going to waste. However,
it's very rare for me to have a character who never learns some Trait off
the main sheet -- especially lores of one sort or another. I think the
loss of the "Other Traits" section is probably the biggest mistake of all.
While I am looking forward to Vampire Revised with great anticipation, I
sincerely hope that the changes seen on the character sheet as presented
are not immutable.
-Eric
--
To reply via e-mail, remove "nospam." from address.
Fenrir Wolf
>While I am looking forward to Vampire Revised with great anticipation, I
>sincerely hope that the changes seen on the character sheet as presented
>are not immutable.
My rebuttal to all this character sheet bashing, is more bashing. Most
of the character sheets produced by White Wolf have extra space that goes
to waste for any given character. And with clan flaws like "zero appearance"
I find it perpetually annoying that there's a dot almost always filled in by
default. Just stick with the homebrew sheets you've been using all along.
--Fenrir Wolf
Jesus Saves...Roll for Initiative
man...@my-dejanews.com
dke...@idt.net (Doug Kern) wrote:
> In article <35BEA0C3...@otn.net>, Chris Jolley <men...@otn.net> wrote:
> > Combat Chart
> > They got rid of it altogether, and replaced it with 11 lines for Merits
> and Flaws.
> > Again I ask WHY?!?
>
> Many players like to use Merits and flaws to flesh out a charecter. The
> old sheet had no room for them on teh basic character sheet. And if they
> are included in the main book, the sheeter should have a place for them.
How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
Fenrir Wolf
>> 2. Artwork Samples
>>
>> As for the new artwork they are sporting on the site, I dont like it.
>I think
>> that the old artwork is much better.
>
> I like the new art work much better. The old artwork, while good, made
>85% of every vampire look way too much like a teenager into body art. Not
>there is anything worng with this, it just did not represent the average
>member of a clan very well imo. And AI love the color pictures for the
>Ventrue and Malkavain.
Yeah, but the "Now I have a Maching Gun Too, Ho, Ho, Ho" shirt wearin'
Malk hanging from the top of the page in V2 is pretty damn cool, and I'll
hang on to V2 for that, if nothing else.
> WW jkust put up Lasombra today, and I am very impressed, not only do the
>Lasombra finally have a modern clan symbol, a pet peeve of mine that the
>never did along with the Tzimisce, they also have more information on
>Antitribu then any other place, even the clan book was pretty skimpy on
>this. Also they mention a new Path in this entry.
Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
"Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
Rob Glunt
> Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
> "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
> their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
> to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
> this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
I agree. I mean; what company first developed the RPG? White Wolf
should have a little more respect for its origins. I don't the part
where they said that vampire "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
either. Patting yourself on the back is seriously bad taste.
The D&D comment also begs the question: "What would you get if you
embraced a bunch of White Wolf gaming geeks?" Angst ridden Toreador is
the obvious answer, but are there any others? Comments?
Rob Glunt
--
She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
Byron
Stephen Coursen
>Fenrir Wolf wrote:
>
>> Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
>> "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
>> their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
>> to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
>> this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
>
>I agree. I mean; what company first developed the RPG? White Wolf
>should have a little more respect for its origins. I don't the part
>where they said that vampire "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
>either. Patting yourself on the back is seriously bad taste.
>
>The D&D comment also begs the question: "What would you get if you
>embraced a bunch of White Wolf gaming geeks?" Angst ridden Toreador is
>the obvious answer, but are there any others? Comments?
>
most WW gamers are geeks as well :)
I hope a vampire would have more taste than to embrace a Gothy whiny WW
gamer. Who needs an immortal whinebag?
Just my $.02
Steve
dbac...@ionet.net
Rob Glunt <*****sen...@aol.com*****> wrote:
> Fenrir Wolf wrote:
>
> > Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
> > "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
> > their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
> > to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
> > this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
>
> I agree. I mean; what company first developed the RPG? White Wolf
> should have a little more respect for its origins. I don't the part
> where they said that vampire "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
> either. Patting yourself on the back is seriously bad taste.
>
Geesh people, it was a joke. For the humor-impaired, it is a subtle
knock at themselves. If that doesn't help you to get it, I'm not
going to spell it all the way out, but will note it is a lot less
heavy-handed, and pretentious than a self-reference, which 'White Wolf
geeks' would have been.
Donald
Rob Glunt
>
> In article <6pqbqi$11...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>,
> Rob Glunt <*****sen...@aol.com*****> wrote:
> > Fenrir Wolf wrote:
> >
> > > Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
> > > "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
> > > their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
> > > to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
> > > this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
> >
> > I agree. I mean; what company first developed the RPG? White Wolf
> > should have a little more respect for its origins. I don't the part
> > where they said that vampire "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
> > either. Patting yourself on the back is seriously bad taste.
> >
>
> Geesh people, it was a joke. For the humor-impaired, it is a subtle
> knock at themselves. If that doesn't help you to get it, I'm not
> going to spell it all the way out, but will note it is a lot less
> heavy-handed, and pretentious than a self-reference, which 'White Wolf
> geeks' would have been.
it was serious though. To listen to some WW gamers talk, you'd think
they'd never touched a copy of the "Tomb of Horrors" or the "Monsterous
Manual." Numerous times I have heard AD&D referred to as a hack n slash
game that nobody but a ten year old would play. (Usually by the same
people who claim go go months at a time without rolling dice. And
that's in tabletop) And while the "D&D Geeks" comment might have been
poking fun at themselves, the "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
statement was still bad taste.
Deirdre M. Brooks
>How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
>combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
Use the merits/flaws lines for other traits.
>Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
>removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
Acting and Music fall under Performance and Expression now. Repair is
probably a subset of Crafts.
>Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
>and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
>of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
Perhaps there is a reason vampires have Leadership as a talent?
>Mant
>‰
Chad Novotny
----------
In article <35C10942...@otn.net>, Chris Jolley <men...@otn.net> wrote:
>
>
>Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
>> >How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
>> >combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
>>
>> Use the merits/flaws lines for other traits.
>>
>> >Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
>> >removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
>>
>> Acting and Music fall under Performance and Expression now. Repair is
>> probably a subset of Crafts.
>>
>> >Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
>> >and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
>> >of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
>>
>> Perhaps there is a reason vampires have Leadership as a talent?
>>
>> >Mant
>> >‰
>
>Use the M/F lines for other talents? You could, but there are not dots there! And
>as for the secondary abilities, they should have left them alone. I mean
>replacing Bueracracy with Academics? Geesh! they should have replaced Science
>with Academics and left Buerarcracy alone, that was the only knowledge that
>defined the players ability to deal with politicians. (HELLO, the last time i
>checked Vampires were very political!)
Well, there's always the Politics knowledge. I imagine that would be useful
when dealing with politicians. Bureaucracy would really be more the skill
of dealing with all the little people that try to keep you from meeting with
the Big Cheeses, and filing paperwork with the right departments, and other
fun stuff like that. I suppose if your vampires work in the DMV it would be
indispensable, but I don't think its removal is such a disaster. Really, go
with Politics.
And as for Academics and Science, I've been using a "Liberal Arts" knowledge
since 1st edition to reflect people like myself who last took a science
class in high school but studied all kinds of useless philosophy and history
and post-modern film criticism and such in college. Hardcore "big science"
of the sorts some of my friends practice is so alien to me that I think it's
fair to have two different Knowledges to reflect
>
>And back to the M/F thing again, taking out the other traits and the combat chart
>for M/F's. What the hell?!? Yea, i take some M/F's usually but not 11 total. And
>besides I always have a weapon on my characters! M/F are good, but i'll take a
>weapon over them everyday!
>
>"hey man you got a gun?" "no, but i'm a jack-of-all-trades!"
>
I agree, an Other Traits section would be more useful and adaptable than a
Merits and Flaws section. But the combat chart? It makes more sense to me
that the sheet describes the CHARACTER, not the character's POSSESSIONS.
Guns come and go, one day you're using an M-16 and the next a club, but
character traits are a little more permanent.
In any case, it's just a character sheet. Yeesh, I've never seen such
emotion over a character sheet.
Chad
REZcat
Fenrir Wolf wrote:
>
>
> Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
> "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
> their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
> to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
> this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
>
> --Fenrir Wolf
>
> Jesus Saves...Roll for Initiative
Umm...Please don't take this personally (it seems you may have dificulty w/
this) But.....
LIGHTEN THE HELL UP! It's a joke!!!!
I myself am a gaming & comic geek & I love making fun of my "subculture." We're
all goofy in many ways. The fact that you're being uptight & defensive about
this just reinforces the point.
Learn to laugh at yourself, stop being so sensitive, loosen your sphincter &
relax.
.
Chris Jolley
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
> >How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
> >combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
>
> Use the merits/flaws lines for other traits.
>
> >Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
> >removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
>
> Acting and Music fall under Performance and Expression now. Repair is
> probably a subset of Crafts.
>
> >Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
> >and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
> >of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
>
> Perhaps there is a reason vampires have Leadership as a talent?
>
> >Mant
> >‰
Use the M/F lines for other talents? You could, but there are not dots there! And
as for the secondary abilities, they should have left them alone. I mean
replacing Bueracracy with Academics? Geesh! they should have replaced Science
with Academics and left Buerarcracy alone, that was the only knowledge that
defined the players ability to deal with politicians. (HELLO, the last time i
checked Vampires were very political!)
And back to the M/F thing again, taking out the other traits and the combat chart
for M/F's. What the hell?!? Yea, i take some M/F's usually but not 11 total. And
besides I always have a weapon on my characters! M/F are good, but i'll take a
weapon over them everyday!
"hey man you got a gun?" "no, but i'm a jack-of-all-trades!"
WW staffers if you are reading this, please reconsider the charactersheet before
its too late!!!!!
Deirdre M. Brooks
>Use the M/F lines for other talents? You could, but there are not dots
>there! And
You mean you can't add your own?
Or just write in numbers?
>as for the secondary abilities, they should have left them alone. I mean
>replacing Bueracracy with Academics? Geesh! they should have replaced Science
Yeah! Damn those writers for thinking that vampires are more likely to
know about history, art and literature than how to talk to the
undersecretary of the undersecretary of defensive driving within the
department of transportation.
>with Academics and left Buerarcracy alone, that was the only knowledge that
>defined the players ability to deal with politicians. (HELLO, the last time i
>checked Vampires were very political!)
Politics. Check it out. Dude. It's still on the sheet.
>And back to the M/F thing again, taking out the other traits and the
>combat chart for M/F's. What the hell?!? Yea, i take some M/F's usually
>but not 11 total. And besides I always have a weapon on my characters!
>M/F are good, but i'll take a weapon over them everyday!
Uh huh? And? You need a chart to show you how to write out weapon stats? I
think merits & flaws are more likely than weapons. I usually use a
separate sheet of paper for weapon info ANYway, and my players never write
out their weapons ANYway, insisting on looking them up in the middle of a
scene SO I'LL PROBABLY JUST OUTLAW THEM. Ahem.
>WW staffers if you are reading this, please reconsider the charactersheet
>before its too late!!!!!
Talk about hyperbolic arcs.
Deirdre M. Brooks
>In any case, it's just a character sheet. Yeesh, I've never seen such
>emotion over a character sheet.
It frightens me, this trend.
Andrew
> I hope that it's a knock at themselves. It seemed plausable enough that
> it was serious though. To listen to some WW gamers talk, you'd think
> they'd never touched a copy of the "Tomb of Horrors" or the "Monsterous
> Manual." Numerous times I have heard AD&D referred to as a hack n slash
> game that nobody but a ten year old would play. (Usually by the same
> people who claim go go months at a time without rolling dice. And
> that's in tabletop) And while the "D&D Geeks" comment might have been
> poking fun at themselves, the "revolutionized a stagnant industry"
> statement was still bad taste.
>
>
About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my knowledge, before White
Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling, hack - n- slash dungeon crawlers,
with little or no real role playing required. So to this end, with the release of
Vampire, WW "revolutionized a stagnant industry." I fail to find one company that
doesn't ever toot its own horn on their biography sheet, so I don't see why you were
so surprised to see some bragging rights on the page.
Also, White Wolf used the comment to be descriptive about what their company did, so
that any new comers could see that they were the first to introduce live action role
playing, and bring to the gaming business a more mature alternative than AD&D.
Andrew
Bruce Baugh
>About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my knowledge, before
> White
>Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling, hack - n- slash dungeon
> crawlers,
>with little or no real role playing required. So to this end, with the release
Call of Cthulhu. Ars Magica. Chivalry & Sorcery. RuneQuest. Empire of
the Petal Throne. Skyrealms of Jorune. Traveller. Pendragon. Suuure.
--
http://pharospress.galstar.com/
Lace & Steel: swashbuckling and magic in a fantasy Renaissance
Nobilis: a new game of the secret struggle for the soul of the world
Check these out!
Gary P.
Fenrir Wolf wrote in message <6ppvh8$f...@acmex.gatech.edu>...
>Doug Kern <dke...@idt.net> wrote:
>>> 2. Artwork Samples
>>>
>>> As for the new artwork they are sporting on the site, I dont like
it.
>>I think
>>> that the old artwork is much better.
>>
>> I like the new art work much better. The old artwork, while good, made
>>85% of every vampire look way too much like a teenager into body art. Not
>>there is anything worng with this, it just did not represent the average
>>member of a clan very well imo. And AI love the color pictures for the
>>Ventrue and Malkavain.
>
>Yeah, but the "Now I have a Maching Gun Too, Ho, Ho, Ho" shirt wearin'
>Malk hanging from the top of the page in V2 is pretty damn cool, and I'll
>hang on to V2 for that, if nothing else.
>
like a nutty Stockbroker.
"No, really, the knife is just to cut the tickertape. Go ahead...sit
down..."
And I have always loved that kook hanging upside down. I can just SEE a malk
saying that. Though the ones that SEEM normal are scarier...
(I hate the Giovanni Picture. I don't know why. But I love the new
description)
(Just a lurker chiming in...)
--
Anything not nailed down is mine.
Anything I can pry loose, is not nailed down.
(Author Unknown)
email gpar...@mindspring.com
Romans 1:16
Andrew
Bruce Baugh wrote:
> In article <35C13A3F...@teleport.com>, Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my knowledge, before
> > White
> >Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling, hack - n- slash dungeon
> > crawlers,
> >with little or no real role playing required. So to this end, with the release
>
> Call of Cthulhu. Ars Magica. Chivalry & Sorcery. RuneQuest. Empire of
> the Petal Throne. Skyrealms of Jorune. Traveller. Pendragon. Suuure.
>
>
First off, yes there were role playing games out then that weren't like AD&D, but I
meant LARPs. Again, as far as I'm aware, in none of these games do you physically act
out your actions. This is what White Wolf truly introduced. Even in AD&D, you could
truly role play, so it'd be unfair of me to say that, and therefor, when writing this,
I meant actually acting out your actions, as I did clarify in the last paragraph of my
message.
Andrew
P.S. I haven't played all these games, but have read about a lot of them, some via
websites others via person to person, so that is what I'm running off.
Bruce Baugh
>First off, yes there were role playing games out then that weren't like AD&D,
> but I
>meant LARPs. Again, as far as I'm aware, in none of these games do you
The Society for Interactive Literature, I believe, goes back
substantially before WW. Certainly Mind's Eye Theatre gave LARP its
biggest single boost, but various forms of LARP are, if anything,
older than tabletop gaming.
Andrew
Bruce Baugh wrote:
> In article <35C15695...@teleport.com>, Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >First off, yes there were role playing games out then that weren't like AD&D,
> > but I
> >meant LARPs. Again, as far as I'm aware, in none of these games do you
>
> The Society for Interactive Literature, I believe, goes back
> substantially before WW. Certainly Mind's Eye Theatre gave LARP its
> biggest single boost, but various forms of LARP are, if anything,
> older than tabletop gaming.
I'll give ya that one, but I think we will both agree that MET brought LARP into
maninstream, and therefor, in that context, White Wolf, in a way, did revolutionize
the industry by bringing something not very well known into the public, and as you
said, gave it a a boost.
ale...@my-dejanews.com
>
> > >How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
> > >combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
> >
> > Use the merits/flaws lines for other traits.
> >
> > >Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
> > >removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
> >
> > Acting and Music fall under Performance and Expression now. Repair is
> > probably a subset of Crafts.
> >
> > >Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
> > >and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
> > >of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
> >
> > Perhaps there is a reason vampires have Leadership as a talent?
> >
> > >Mant
> > >‰
>
You could draw your own little dots there...
I realise that doesn't help much. I think the main issue here is that all
the WoD games need to use the 4-page expanded sheets if they're going to use
sheets at all.
<snip>
> And back to the M/F thing again, taking out the other traits and the combat chart
> for M/F's. What the hell?!? Yea, i take some M/F's usually but not 11 total. And
> besides I always have a weapon on my characters! M/F are good, but i'll take a
> weapon over them everyday!
>
> "hey man you got a gun?" "no, but i'm a jack-of-all-trades!"
>
Boy, does this ever scare/depress me...
> WW staffers if you are reading this, please reconsider the charactersheet before
> its too late!!!!!
>
>
I'm not an expert, but I'm going to presume that it's waaaaaaaaaaay too late.
The book will be on shelves in only a few months. It's probably been pretty
darn final for at least a few weeks by now.
MDF
(Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> --
> http://pharospress.galstar.com/
> Lace & Steel: swashbuckling and magic in a fantasy Renaissance
> Nobilis: a new game of the secret struggle for the soul of the world
> Check these out!
Sorry for snipping the content to get at the sig, and also sorry
about a somewhat off-topic reply...but, heck, that's got to be one of the
very few times (perhaps the only one) I've ever seen a reference to the
game Lace & Steel since I purchased it six or so years ago!
Cool!
MDF
--
"I had nothing to offer anybody except my own confusion."
-----Jack Kerouac
PLEASE remove the word "ANTISPAM" from my e-mail address to reply directly.
Sylvia van der Velde
> combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
I always use place on the Sheet for anything I need. If I do not have 11
Merits/Flaws I simply use the space for other Traits and such things.
Why should anyone be forced to use the space for Merits/Flaws alone?
Only because there is a fat Sentence saying this? If you think so then
you should free you vision from this jail.
Sylvia.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvia van der Velde email: v...@biba.uni-bremen.de
FB 3, Informatik fv...@informatik.uni-bremen.de
StuMi am BIBA
Universitaet Bremen
http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~fvd4c
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ich widerspreche hiermit der Nutzung oder
Uebermittlung meiner Daten fuer Werbezwecke
oder fuer die Markt- und Meinungsforschung.
(Paragraph 28 Abs.3 Bundesdatenschutzgesetz)
man...@geocities.com
xe...@user1.teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks) wrote:
> In <6ppur0$t3a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> man...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
> >How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
> >combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
>
> >Especially for Characters with Acting, repair, music and other stuff not
> >removed. Far more characters use other traits than merits and flaws.
>
> Acting and Music fall under Performance and Expression now. Repair is
> probably a subset of Crafts.
I'd be a bit wary of just converting a skill into a more general one, its
kinda hard to explain suddenly being good at new stuff (we have to work very
hard to justify ability rasing). I'd rather keep the old ones as secondary
skills for my PCs (if the ST approves).
I don't care that much since I doubt I would use it much anyway. I mean I
have all the clansheets from White Wolfs, and I did my own sheet for my one
character wwho belongs to a bloodlines anyway.
> >Apart from that it looks good, they should have done the Mage thing though
> >and gone for 33 abilities rather than 30. That way they could have kept some
> >of the old stuff, and moved Leadership to Skills like every other game.
>
> Perhaps there is a reason vampires have Leadership as a talent?
>
> >Mant
> >‰
I suspect its not some deep, deliberate reason though, it just got moved
around so you had 10 talents, 10 skills, and 10 knowledges. Personally I'm
more inclined to think its a talent, although its certainly a debatable
point.
> >-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> >http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
> ‰
Eric Langendorff
<cnov...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In any case, it's just a character sheet. Yeesh, I've never seen such
> emotion over a character sheet.
The character sheet is the most intimate interface a player has with the
game he's playing. It should be constructed such that its utility is
beyond measure. The character sheet should be designed such that a player
can access the information he needs in the most efficient manner possible.
True, one can always create one's own character sheet, but, more often
than not, when a new player hands you a character, it's on the "official"
character sheet for the game. (That, or binder paper.) We all use the
"official" sheet sometimes, so it only makes sense for it to be the best
it can be.
Besides, it's all we've got at this point, what with the game not having
been printed yet.
:-)
Chris Jolley
It just seem to me that they intended to do a little fixin, and ended up "fixin"
things that were fine the way they were.
I have alot of gripes about the charactersheet, sure, but i'm sure i'm not the only
one out there who feels this way.
That is the point of newsgroups remember, to share views and opinions. If you want to
become offended just because someone does not agree with your beliefs then I don't
know what to say besides dont read any posts besides your own. That way you will
never get a conflicting opinion and you can be happy.
Now if this statement offends anyone, once again sorry, but its the truth. This is
public newsgroup and everyone has the right to their opinion.
man...@geocities.com
Sylvia van der Velde <fv...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote:
> > How many people have ELEVEN Merits and Flaws? I don't care at all about the
> > combat chart, but I do miss the other traits bit.
>
> Merits/Flaws I simply use the space for other Traits and such things.
> Why should anyone be forced to use the space for Merits/Flaws alone?
> Only because there is a fat Sentence saying this? If you think so then
> you should free you vision from this jail.
>
> Sylvia.
Hey I'll write it in anywere, but I really *like* writing it in the same
section as it supposed to be in. Just a bit anal that way I guess. Probably
why I do custom sheets and have so many templates in charaturge.
What I would love is a generic 4 page sheet for all the games. So you can use
it with any one. Oh well, maybe in the ST screen or something.
Mant
James Kiley
>In article <6prkp8$2gs...@news.mindspring.com>, bruce...@mindspring.com
>(Bruce Baugh) wrote:
>> http://pharospress.galstar.com/
>> Lace & Steel: swashbuckling and magic in a fantasy Renaissance
>> Nobilis: a new game of the secret struggle for the soul of the world
>> Check these out!
>
> Sorry for snipping the content to get at the sig, and also sorry
>about a somewhat off-topic reply...but, heck, that's got to be one of the
>very few times (perhaps the only one) I've ever seen a reference to the
>game Lace & Steel since I purchased it six or so years ago!
Rumor has it that L&S may be making a comeback, possibly as early as
Gen Con next week. Keep your eyes peeled.
jk
honest
Stephen Coursen
>>
>> >About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my knowledge, before
>> > White
>> >Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling, hack - n- slash dungeon
>> > crawlers,
>> >with little or no real role playing required. So to this end, with the release
>>
>> Call of Cthulhu. Ars Magica. Chivalry & Sorcery. RuneQuest. Empire of
>> the Petal Throne. Skyrealms of Jorune. Traveller. Pendragon. Suuure.
>>
>>
>
>out your actions. This is what White Wolf truly introduced. Even in AD&D, you could
>truly role play, so it'd be unfair of me to say that, and therefor, when writing this,
>I meant actually acting out your actions, as I did clarify in the last paragraph of my
>message.
>
kid, except we called in cowboys & indians or army.
Steve
Bruce Baugh
>I'll give ya that one, but I think we will both agree that MET brought LARP
> into
>maninstream, and therefor, in that context, White Wolf, in a way, did
> revolutionize
>the industry by bringing something not very well known into the public, and as
> you
>said, gave it a a boost.
Sure, but there's a big difference between popularizing and inventing.
Both are important.
--
Bruce Baugh
>> http://pharospress.galstar.com/
>> Lace & Steel: swashbuckling and magic in a fantasy Renaissance
>> Nobilis: a new game of the secret struggle for the soul of the world
>> Check these out!
> Sorry for snipping the content to get at the sig, and also sorry
>about a somewhat off-topic reply...but, heck, that's got to be one of the
>very few times (perhaps the only one) I've ever seen a reference to the
>game Lace & Steel since I purchased it six or so years ago!
It's a great game! And it's coming back into print from an American
press, thanks to the efforts of David Bolack. This is something that
at least some WW fans will want to take a look at - it's actually got
rules not just for swashbuckling duels, but for the sort of rhetorical
fencing that makes the source material such fun. Among many other neat
features.
Chad Novotny
----------
In article <ThorKee-3107...@ple-ca8-05.ix.netcom.com>,
Tho...@nospam.ix.netcom.com (Eric Langendorff) wrote:
>In article <6pr5ln$9...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, "Chad Novotny"
><cnov...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> In any case, it's just a character sheet. Yeesh, I've never seen such
>> emotion over a character sheet.
>
>The character sheet is the most intimate interface a player has with the
>game he's playing. It should be constructed such that its utility is
>beyond measure. The character sheet should be designed such that a player
>can access the information he needs in the most efficient manner possible.
>
>True, one can always create one's own character sheet, but, more often
>than not, when a new player hands you a character, it's on the "official"
>character sheet for the game. (That, or binder paper.) We all use the
>"official" sheet sometimes, so it only makes sense for it to be the best
>it can be.
>
Sure, okay, but it's just that the changes seem to me to BE more useful
(Academics over Bureaucracy, Crafts instead of Repair (where Crafts can
really be any number of things and would include repair in your crafts
specialty), etc.). I agree I'd leave Other Traits instead of the new lines
for Merits & Flaws, but other than that, it looks good to me.
What bothers me is the vehement response to the changes. It's as if people
are upset over the change just because it is CHANGE.
>Besides, it's all we've got at this point, what with the game not having
>been printed yet.
>
>:-)
>
Must rant! Must rave! This is Usenet! Damn White Wolf for giving me only
a character sheet to complain about so far! :-)
>-Eric
-Chad
Fenrir Wolf
>> Brujah kinda annoyed me with the bit on Tremere:
>> "Tremere: It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them
>> their spells were real" I dunno. I think it's just bad for a gaming book
>> to bash on gaming geeks. Gaming geeks keep their coffers filled. Or maybe
>> this is just more fallout from that whole "vampire murders" thing.
Rob Glunt <*****sen...@aol.com*****> wrote:
>The D&D comment also begs the question: "What would you get if you
>embraced a bunch of White Wolf gaming geeks?" Angst ridden Toreador is
>the obvious answer, but are there any others? Comments?
Angst ridden Toreador poseurs who secretly want to be Tremere.
The Saint of Killers
> Well, there's always the Politics knowledge. I imagine that would be useful
> when dealing with politicians. Bureaucracy would really be more the skill
> of dealing with all the little people that try to keep you from meeting with
> the Big Cheeses, and filing paperwork with the right departments, and other
> fun stuff like that. I suppose if your vampires work in the DMV it would be
> indispensable, but I don't think its removal is such a disaster. Really, go
> with Politics.
>
> And as for Academics and Science, I've been using a "Liberal Arts" knowledge
> since 1st edition to reflect people like myself who last took a science
> class in high school but studied all kinds of useless philosophy and history
> and post-modern film criticism and such in college. Hardcore "big science"
> of the sorts some of my friends practice is so alien to me that I think it's
> fair to have two different Knowledges to reflect
Frankly, I beleive that all of those skills are useless, and should be
replaced with various combat skills. The sheet should look more like
this.
Talents Skills Knowledges
Brawl Melee Lore
Dodge Firearms Lore
Manslaughter 1 Blowing Shit Up Lore
Manslaughter 2 Vehicular Homicide Lore
Attempted Murder 2 Do Lore
SoK
Andrew
> Both are important.
>
Yup...But bringing something into the mainstream public (aimed at Coursen who can't
seem to be following this correctly) was probably what White Wolf meant when they saud
"revolutionizing."
Oh..And I am going to check out that Lace and Steel page...Heh...It sounds like it
could be quite nifty, if I do say so myself ;)
Andrew
Deirdre M. Brooks
>In article <35C13A3F...@teleport.com>, Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my knowledge, before
>> White
>>Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling, hack - n- slash dungeon
>> crawlers,
>>with little or no real role playing required. So to this end, with the release
>Call of Cthulhu. Ars Magica. Chivalry & Sorcery. RuneQuest. Empire of
>the Petal Throne. Skyrealms of Jorune. Traveller. Pendragon. Suuure.
Shadowrun. GURPS. Champions.
There was plenty of roleplay going on everywhere. Even with AD&D.
I don't know where this revisionism started, but White Wolf did not
re-invent roleplaying.
Andrew
Alright look...this is really getting annoying. You might want to try reading the rest of
the thread before posting your opinion on it, because what you'd said has already been
discussed. White Wolf brought LARPing to a mature activity and into the mainstream public.
Your other comment on other role playing games has also already been countered, because as
I said, the context I meant when mentioning roleplaying is one which meant LARPing (see
above).
Again, try reading the rest of the thread before posting.
Andrew
The Saint of Killers
>
> Alright look...this is really getting annoying. You might want to try reading the rest of
> the thread before posting your opinion on it, because what you'd said has already been
> discussed. White Wolf brought LARPing to a mature activity and into the mainstream public.
> Your other comment on other role playing games has also already been countered, because as
> I said, the context I meant when mentioning roleplaying is one which meant LARPing (see
> above).
Since you didn't quote any of the previous message, one wonders who the
mysterious 'you' is.
SoK
Rikki t./Marie Terese
Ah, but you forgot
Making sharp pointy things go into soft things
Making Really sharp pointy things go into soft things
Hitting soft things with hard things
Hitting soft things with really big hard things
Clenching your teeth really hard so that it doesn't hurt too much
Keeping the red stuff inside your body when it wants to come out
and
Being distracted but making it look like you're really deep in thought.
Cheers,
Rikki t. and MT
Rob Glunt
>
> > Sure, but there's a big difference between popularizing and inventing.
> > Both are important.
> >
>
> Yup...But bringing something into the mainstream public (aimed at Coursen who can't
> seem to be following this correctly) was probably what White Wolf meant when they saud
> "revolutionizing."
The "revolutionized" part of the statement didn't really offend me.
Companies make claims like that all the time. It was the "stagnant
industry" part that I found distasteful. It's one thing to have pride
in your product and claim that it's the best. It's another to claim
that everything else is crap.
Rob Glunt
--
She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
Byron
Eric Langendorff
<jug...@zianet.com> wrote:
But are those Talents, Skills or Knowedges? ;-)
Bruce Baugh
>The "revolutionized" part of the statement didn't really offend me.
>Companies make claims like that all the time. It was the "stagnant
>industry" part that I found distasteful. It's one thing to have pride
>in your product and claim that it's the best. It's another to claim
>that everything else is crap.
My view exactly.
Andrew
Ah alright..I see what your saying now -- I did think that the "revolutionized" offended
you, but I do agree that WW shouldn't have claimed that the RPG industry at that time was
complete shit. But they could have meant that no new innovative ways of RPing were coming
along, but it was still, as you put it, somewhat bad taste.
Andrew
Andrew
The Saint of Killers wrote:
That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you can see what message came
before it and who wrote it. But if your too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our
little reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen.
Andrew
Deirdre M. Brooks
>Alright look...this is really getting annoying. You might want to try
>reading the rest of the thread before posting your opinion on it, because
>what you'd said has already been discussed. White Wolf brought LARPing to
>a mature activity and into the mainstream public. Your other comment on
>other role playing games has also already been countered, because as I
>said, the context I meant when mentioning roleplaying is one which meant
>LARPing (see above).
First, try posting in 72 columns.
Second, I really don't buy the LARP explanation myself. But hey, whatever
you want.
>Again, try reading the rest of the thread before posting.
>Andrew
Deirdre M. Brooks
>Since you didn't quote any of the previous message, one wonders who the
>mysterious 'you' is.
I think he was talking to me, but that's only because I read the Reference
headers and the last post was from teleport.com. I don't really think his
explanation is much more than an attempt to save face.
I could be wrong, of course. I'm sure he won't hesitate to yell it across
the usenet that I'm wrong. I really don't particularly care at this point.
>SoK
Justin R. Achilli
> Frankly, I beleive that all of those skills are useless, and should be
> replaced with various combat skills. The sheet should look more like
> this.
>
> Talents Skills Knowledges
> Brawl Melee Lore
> Dodge Firearms Lore
> Manslaughter 1 Blowing Shit Up Lore
> Manslaughter 2 Vehicular Homicide Lore
> Attempted Murder 2 Do Lore
This is one of the funniest damn things I've seen in this newsgroup in a
long time. Bu then, I made the "D&D geeks" crack in the Brujah section,
so I'm obviously a self-indulgent, humorless cad.
Regards,
Justin
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
[jach...@mindspring.com]
"I would go out tonight, but
I haven't got a stitch to wear."
-- The Smiths, "This Charming Man"
Andrew
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
Try posting in 72 columns? Nah, I'm afraid I don't see a need to offer my
opinion in every single thread, and that still isn't an excuse for not knowing
what has been said in a conversation originally between two people. Second, if
you don't believe the explanation, then you don't, and that is your problem,
because I know what I meant when I wrote it, and if I didn't make it clear,
then I apologize.
Andrew
Mikko Rautalahti
: I hope that it's a knock at themselves. It seemed plausable enough that
: it was serious though. To listen to some WW gamers talk, you'd think
: they'd never touched a copy of the "Tomb of Horrors" or the "Monsterous
: Manual." Numerous times I have heard AD&D referred to as a hack n slash
I hate to break this to you, but a lot of the people who play WoD
games HAVE never touched a copy of the AD&D main books, let alone the
supplements.
Feeling old? Join the club. =)
- Mikki
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Mikko Rautalahti -- "It seems an emotional enema is next on the agenda. -
- watc...@iki.fi -- Flush out the excess humanity." - JTHM ------------
- WatchMan @ IRC ----------------------- http://www.iki.fi/~watchman/ -
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Rambo
If everyone's entitled to an opinion, here's mine. I don't like
the repair to crafts swap if and only if Vicissitude remains the same.
Unless it's been altered so every roll isn't Attribute+Body Crafts (A
valid crafts specialty), this just makes it that much easier for twinks to
go nuts. Instead of being forced to spend freebies to make a monstrously
abused discipline usable, now thet get to fuel it from their initial
skill allotment, making it that much easier to get that werewolf-lite Zulo
without too much pain.
Of course some other disciplines are a bit weak in this regard,
Obtenebration and Occult for example.
But then again, I don't have the Revised Discipline rules, so I
retain an open mind and hold on passing judgement until I buy them. After
all, changes are going to have to be made, even if it's a bit of cutting
and pasting, given Acting's gone and Obfuscate and Presence both call for
it last I checked.
Trusting the best given what I've seen so far
John Rambo
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"Who wants to live forever,/Who dares to love forever,/When love must die.
But touch my tears with your lips,/Touch my world with your fingertips,
And we can have forever,/We can love forever,/Forever is our today." - Queen
______________________________________________________________________________
Scott Taylor
> About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my
> knowledge, before White Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling,
> hack - n- slash dungeon crawlers, with little or no real role playing
> required.
Your knowledge is, quite frankly, wrong.
A lot of people, myself included, were having plenty of fun *role-playing*
(not hack-and-slashing, though that can also be fun; witness the
success of Doom, Marathon and other 1st person hackfests) long before
White Wolf came along; Traveller, Cyberpunk, Lord of The Rings, Ars Magica,
GURPs, Star Trek:RPG, Mekton, Twilight;2000, Morrow Project, Empire
of the Petal Throne, TimeLords, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu....
Contrary to what sometimes seems to be popular belief, there *was*
role-playing besides Dungeons&Dragons before White Wolf came along.
> So to this end, with the release of Vampire, WW "revolutionized a
> stagnant industry." I fail to find one company that doesn't ever toot
> its own horn on their biography sheet, so I don't see why you were so
> surprised to see some bragging rights on the page.
Well, I don't know about "revolutionized", but they certainly kicked
a (not-quite so stagnant) industry in the ass, and have grown into an
award-winning company that produces some *damn* fine work (kudoes
again for Richard Dansky, and his work on Wraith in general, and
Charnel Houses in particular, just to name one developer's work).
White Wolf is one of the companies I've wanted to work with for a while
now, and I'm glad to have gotten the chance. But I'm not going to lay
the term "Savior of all Role-Playing" at their feet...
--
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel
NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS: izzy...@frontiernet.net
Scott Taylor
(Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <mdf-310798...@cdialup197.dnvr.uswest.net>,
m...@dnvr.uswest.ANTISPAM.net (MDF) wrote:
>
> >> http://pharospress.galstar.com/
> >> Lace & Steel: swashbuckling and magic in a fantasy Renaissance
> >> Nobilis: a new game of the secret struggle for the soul of the world
> >> Check these out!
>
> > Sorry for snipping the content to get at the sig, and also sorry
> >about a somewhat off-topic reply...but, heck, that's got to be one of the
> >very few times (perhaps the only one) I've ever seen a reference to the
> >game Lace & Steel since I purchased it six or so years ago!
>
> It's a great game! And it's coming back into print from an American
> press, thanks to the efforts of David Bolack. This is something that
> at least some WW fans will want to take a look at - it's actually got
> rules not just for swashbuckling duels, but for the sort of rhetorical
> fencing that makes the source material such fun. Among many other neat
> features.
Let me take Bruce's statement and make it more explicit;
You must buy this game. :-)
1: Lace&Steel is really cool. Its got neato swashbuckling feel,
its got poufy-sleeve shirts and doublets, it's got flashing steel
rapiers, it's got horse-men (don't call them centaurs...), its
got witty repartee, and its got a really cool world to play around
in. So its pretty keen. Not very gothic, really, but very keen
nonetheless.
2: David Bolack is a pretty great guy; my only regret about not
going to GenCon this year is I won't get to see the guys from the
GPA, all of whom (Dave, Ann Dupuis, Mark, Greg Porter, etc.) are
all pretty cool people. (that and the White Wolf folks, but I'll
see them at Dragoncon).
3: Pharos Press is the kind of small press company that produces
keen products at reasonable prices. These are folks we'd like to
encourage and keep around; White Wolf was one of these companies
once, and look where they went... :-)
If you get a chance, check this game out. It's worth your
while, trust me.
(This unsolicited tirade... err... recommendation brought
to you from the demented mind of...)
Wanderer
>
>
>Bruce Baugh wrote:
>
(snip)
>> The Society for Interactive Literature, I believe, goes back
>> substantially before WW. Certainly Mind's Eye Theatre gave LARP its
>> biggest single boost, but various forms of LARP are, if anything,
>> older than tabletop gaming.
>
>I'll give ya that one, but I think we will both agree that MET brought LARP
into
>maninstream, and therefor, in that context, White Wolf, in a way, did
revolutionize
>the industry by bringing something not very well known into the public, and
as you
>said, gave it a a boost.
>
really ... You see, the earliest LARPs were AD&D, such as the one played in
by James Egbert Dallas III ... he's that kid that ran away from college
leaving a dungeon map of the college's steam tunnels behind, thus inspiring
"Mazes and Monsters", by Rona Jaffe (not a very good book, IMO). And when
you have that book, another less-well-known one, and the published story of
the private eye that found the kid (look for it by the title the publisher
selected ... "The Dungeon Master"), LARPing was very much in the public eye
years before WWGS ever came out with it.
Yours truly,
The historical,
Wanderer**wand...@applink.net
Where am I going?I don't quite know.
What does it matter where people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I*don't know!
The Saint of Killers
>
> The Saint of Killers wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Alright look...this is really getting annoying. You might want to try reading the rest of
> > > the thread before posting your opinion on it, because what you'd said has already been
> > > discussed. White Wolf brought LARPing to a mature activity and into the mainstream public.
> > > Your other comment on other role playing games has also already been countered, because as
> > > I said, the context I meant when mentioning roleplaying is one which meant LARPing (see
> > > above).
> >
> > mysterious 'you' is.
> >
>
> That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you can see what message came
> before it and who wrote it. But if your too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our
> little reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen.
Wow. You're one condescending little prick, aren't you?
It's also why they invented this neat concept of sticking some parts of
other peoples' posts in your own. Gosh, that shur is neet, ain't it Boss
Hogg? Weehaw and hoody hoo.
SoK
The Saint of Killers
>
> The Saint of Killers wrote:
>
> > replaced with various combat skills. The sheet should look more like
> > this.
> >
> > Talents Skills Knowledges
> > Brawl Melee Lore
> > Dodge Firearms Lore
> > Manslaughter 1 Blowing Shit Up Lore
> > Manslaughter 2 Vehicular Homicide Lore
> > Attempted Murder 2 Do Lore
>
> This is one of the funniest damn things I've seen in this newsgroup in a
> long time. Bu then, I made the "D&D geeks" crack in the Brujah section,
> so I'm obviously a self-indulgent, humorless cad.
I was so offended, I almost wet myself.
SoK
Andrew
Scott Taylor wrote:
I agree that WWolf is not the savior or roleplaying games, and there were
others out there beside AD&D, but as I have said in other posts, the context in
which I said "roleplaying" mean LARPing, and which has already been discussed:
(and I will change my opinion because of what Scott Taylor wrote) White Wolf
brought LARPing into the public eye in a good way, and as it was elegantly put
in another post, gave it its greatest single boost.
Andrew
Andrew
Wanderer wrote:
Alright..Well that I did not know. Thank you for teaching me something about the
history of LARPs then :) But you will agree that White Wolf brough LARPs into
the public in a good eye, then? I do think that Minds Eye Theatre did give live
action roleplaying its biggest boost, though...
Andrew
Andrew
>
>
> Wow. You're one condescending little prick, aren't you?
>
> It's also why they invented this neat concept of sticking some parts of
> other peoples' posts in your own. Gosh, that shur is neet, ain't it Boss
> Hogg? Weehaw and hoody hoo.
>
> SoK
Yes well, I don't always wish for people to have to flood through past messages to get to mine,
and since the conversation was originally between only 2 people, I saw no need to catch others up.
Andrew
Hehe..And I like your neato comments. Just be sure to flush the potty before yelling "Oh my God! You
guys have to come take a look at this!" :)
SD Anderson
Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>
> Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> > In <35C25B67...@teleport.com> Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> writes:
> >
> > >reading the rest of the thread before posting your opinion on it, because
> > >what you'd said has already been discussed. White Wolf brought LARPing to
> > >a mature activity and into the mainstream public. Your other comment on
> > >other role playing games has also already been countered, because as I
> > >said, the context I meant when mentioning roleplaying is one which meant
> > >LARPing (see above).
First, not all newsreaders or news servers for that matter carry everything
posted. Even dejanews misses posts now and then.
Second. You are pretty much answerable to anything you post, even if time
passes, until the post drops off most servers. You should NOT assume it is
the responsibility of other people to dredge up any corrections and fixes
you posted elsewhere. Does that mean you have to repeat those explanations?
Damn straight. Same as everyone else here.
Third: It is the POSTER'S responsibility to state what he or she means
clearly and concisely. Your statements to date here have been rather
easy to misread. Case in point:
# About your last comment, I don't really agree...I mean, to my
# knowledge, before White Wolf came along, all RPGs were just dice rolling,
# hack - n- slash dungeon crawlers, with little or no real role playing
# required.
It's REAL REAL REAL HARD to believe you were speaking about LARPS only
when refering to 'dice rolling'. Sounds to me like you were speaking
about ALL RPGS that existed before White Wolf when you were saying 'before
White Wolf came along, all RPGs were...' Know whut ah mean Verne?
'White Wolf' was a magazine. It's now a game company. And a book
publisher. Had you spoken of Mind's Eye Theatre, a LOT of the confusion
YOU caused might have been avoided. It's not the responsibility of anyone
else here to GUESS at what you meant to say. If you intend to blame anyone
for any failure to communicate, I suggest you start with this guy named
'Andrew'.
> > First, try posting in 72 columns.
Or 60. I've seen news readers that are that narrow. I even
occasionally remember to do so myself. ;)
> > Second, I really don't buy the LARP explanation myself. But hey, whatever
> > you want.
> Try posting in 72 columns? Nah, I'm afraid I don't see a need to offer my
> opinion in every single thread, and that still isn't an excuse for not knowing
> what has been said in a conversation originally between two people. Second, if
> you don't believe the explanation, then you don't, and that is your problem,
> because I know what I meant when I wrote it, and if I didn't make it clear,
> then I apologize.
I believe she was refering to width. The ideal is that your entire
paragraph doesn't stretch out in a single line that would require the
right side of your monitor to be somewhere in your neighbor's drive way
to view the damn thing.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
SD Anderson
man...@geocities.com wrote:
> I did my own sheet for my one character wwho belongs to a
> bloodlines anyway.
Which is the proper solution anyway, the Character sheet might be
a good reference document to use when making a character, but
once you've done that you should get to your word processor (not
a problem for most of the people able to read these posts) and
print out one custom made for the PC.
WoD/ST system isn't Games Workshop where the guy running a game
at a convention won't let you play unless you use only 'official'
materials.
SD Anderson
Possibly, but I think those "How to Host a Murder" games as well as
mystery dinners and mystery cruise/train trips generate more cash overall
with a wider acceptance of things in 'mainstream' society.
Andrew
First, not all newsreaders or news servers for that matter carry everything
posted. Even dejanews misses posts now and then.
Alright..Let me address this one by one, and by the way, I do admit
when I am wrong if I believe I was, and I do apologize for not making my
first comment clear as to whether I was referring to MET or all RPGs in
general. I still stand by that I was speaking mainly for LARPs, and that
has been discussed earlier, which brings me addressing your last comment,
in which it is nott my responsibility if a news reader misses a post. If
your news reader is fucking up, I will not accomadate you for the program's
screw up. Sorry, but I do not have the time.
Second. You are pretty much answerable to anything you post,
even if timepasses, until the post drops off most servers. You should
NOT assume it is
the responsibility of other people to dredge up any corrections
and fixes
you posted elsewhere. Does that mean you have to repeat those
explanations?
If the message disapeared or expired, I would not hold anyone responsible for what was said. But the fact is, the original conversation is still here in black and white, available for anyone with a decent news reader that doesn't miss posts to look up and read.
Third: It is the POSTER'S responibility to state what he or
she means
clearly and concisely. Your statements to date here have been
rather
easy to misread. Case in point: <snip>
It's REAL REAL REAL HARD to believe you were speaking
about LARPS only
when refering to 'dice rolling'. Sounds to me like you were
speaking
about ALL RPGS that existed before White Wolf when you were saying
'before
White Wolf came along, all RPGs were...' Know whut ah mean Vern
White Wolf' was a magazine. It's now a game company.
And a book
publisher. Had you spoken of Mind's Eye Theatre, a LOT of
the confusion
YOU caused might have been avoided. It's not the responsibility
of anyone
else here to GUESS at what you meant to say. If you intend
to blame anyone
for any failure to communicate, I suggest you start with this guy
named
'Andrew'.
I already addressed this comment, and I apologize that I didn't make it clear, though when I say I meant LARPs it refers to "...real or no roleplaying..." Again, I apologize for not making this clear, and I was wrong in a later post stating that MET originated LARPing, which it did not.
> > First, try posting in 72 columns.
Or 60. I've seen news readers that are that narrow.
I even
occasionally remember to do so myself. ;)
> > Second, I really don't buy the LARP explanation myself. But hey,
whatever
> > you want.
> Try posting in 72 columns? Nah, I'm afraid I don't see a need to
offer my
> opinion in every single thread, and that still isn't an excuse
for not knowing
> what has been said in a conversation originally between two people.
Second, if
> you don't believe the explanation, then you don't, and that is
your problem,
> because I know what I meant when I wrote it, and if I didn't make
it clear,
> then I apologize.
I believe she was refering to width. The ideal is that
your entire
paragraph doesn't stretch out in a single line that would require
the
right side of your monitor to be somewhere in your neighbor's drive
way
to view the damn thing.
Hmm...Now that I look back, this comment was probably concerning width, though at the time it didn't even enter my mind -- my mistake. But, if the formatting is that fucked, then I advise you either get another news reader or maybe copy and past the content into a text editor, and format it there. Novel idea, isn't it?
Now, can we please end this silly thread? I am growing tired of repeating everything, and I already admitted I was wrong about the LARP issue and failing to communicate in the first post. So sue me -- I made a mistake. Everyone does, and now I've learned that there are people who will drag things well past their intended course. Hmm...I just thought that perhaps White Wolf gamers might be a bit more mature than that. I apoligize for my ignorance.
Andrew
Andrew
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Alright..Well that I did not know. Thank you for teaching me something about the
> > history of LARPs then :) But you will agree that White Wolf brough LARPs into
> > the public in a good eye, then? I do think that Minds Eye Theatre did give live
> > action roleplaying its biggest boost, though...
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Possibly, but I think those "How to Host a Murder" games as well as
> mystery dinners and mystery cruise/train trips generate more cash overall
> with a wider acceptance of things in 'mainstream' society.
>
>
Hmm...How to Host a Murder isn't something I wholly consider my kind of LARP, as in my
experience, and I admit it may not be true for all of the them, but you can only play
each box set once...But there may be others with a wider range of options, but even
so, they are very primitive. Also, the myster dinners/cruises are really LARPs, as the
only people acting are the hosts of the program, with the guests just trying to figure
it out. This is only my opinion though.
And the How to Host a Murder games aren't really in mainstream society :) I have
heardly heard of them over the years.
Andrew
Chris Jolley
You might as well give up the fight, they are going to slam you no
matter what you say, because they don't agree with you. I've made that
mistake myself on this newsgroup. just read magnus's post on "What would
Chris Jolley be in the WOD" and you will see that god forbid you piss
off one person who posts on this newsgroup, and you will have at least
one loser who tries to put you down no matter what.
My opinion, is fuk'em if they want to be a whiney pussy then let'em.
They are the one's who will look like a jack-ass on the newsgroup. Never
apologise for stating your opinion.
Andrew
Well first off, I agree with that whole heartedly. I do apologize for not making my statement clear, which I now know I didn't, and for not having all my information straight, but since there seems to be a new person continuing this meaningless thread every fucking today, I am pretty much ignoring it unless a new topic comes up. I am sure that myself and the original person who had this discussion in the first place are at a truce, with him being in the right, and me somewhat in the wrong, though I am still amazed at all the people are are rushing in to give their opinions on LARPs days after the original posts began. I mean, shit, I do not consider Murder Mysteries LARPs, nor do I think those lame mystery dinners are anything close. Cowboys and Indians was LARPing at its most pre mature state, and I already countered this rather immature post flaming me for "forgetting" to mention it. So sorry, though seeing as how that really had nothing to do with the present conversation (which involved introducing LARPs to the mainstream public), I felt no need to bring it up.
I am pretty much summing everything up now -- thank you for giving me the oppertunity. Basically, the whole thing started as a misunderstanding on my part, which I admit to, but now everyone is rushing at me with their own interperetations of history and acting like it is the word of God. I mean, every day they cite some form of LARPing which I didn't mentiont. Tomorrow it will probably be "House."
Oh, and I do not apologize for giving my opinions on any of these matters, though the reply to your message was rather out of line, but could be taken in a sarcastically funny matter if it wasn't for the obvious anger set into the thread. What I apoligize for is the lack of information on my part, which again, I do admit to, but I am rather surprised at the way everyone jumps at a person. I mean, my God, if something is already mentioned, do not say it again. If your news reader misses posts, then get a new one. It is not my concern nor anyone else's but your own to find some way so that you do not sound cliched. God forbid these people every get a job at White Wolf.
Now, I do not take any of this personally, and I don't think anyone should, but I am annoyed that every day this week some one else had to cite something which was already mentioned. These people remind me of those kids in class that hear rumors months after they've started then go around and spread them to new people claiming these lies to be their own.
All matters aside, I have lost respect for those who seem to keep continuing this discussion. Agreed, I am responding, though that is more a matter of my stubborn pride which is going to stop now. You all probably think you have an edge on me -- and do deny this, since being a writer myself, it is obvious when somebody writes with a superiority complex in their style -- , and that I look like such a jack ass for lieing about my comment in the first post (I did back it up in the last paragraph, if you care to read the whole thing), but the truth is, you guys look like retarded idiots by repeating things mentioned many times already.
I don't want this to turn into a personal discussion, but I need to express my virtual anger somehow. I'm not aiming this at a particular person as much as I am at the whole newsgroup, in a childish hope that maybe some people will begin to research the threads better, because I do not want this to be taken personally. My posts on this thread stop until a new sub topic inside of it comes up, because I do not want to waste time repeating myself. If you want an answer, look in previous posts. If your news reader missed them, then I don't give a fuck.
Have a good night
Andrew
P.S. As I said, and as I have proved, I do admit when I am wrong, and
just in case any of you skimmed over the above message, I admit to not
stating myself clearly and not haveing all of my history of LARPing
in order. I commend the person who had the original discussion with me
for actually keeping it civil, and neither of us resorted to the rather
sarcastic nature that later messages did, and I also thank him for teaching
me something new about live action roleplaying.
Andrew
everyone will get on my ass for claiming to be a writer. Heh..The only
thing I can say is that when you type a message that is at least a page
long, you tend to miss a few things. Then when you edit over your own
writing, you will again, not notice a few mistakes as you know what it
is supposed to be and therefor subconsciously fill in the details. Yes,
I do watch the monitor when I type, and yes, I did re read it, so I have
no excuse for messing up.
If you now don't think I'm fit to be a writer because I made a few
errors, then you don't. I can't quite fix that, so that is all I pretty
much wanted to say. Hmm..I guess I flamed myself then. Oh well :) Maybe
others will no longer find the need....
Andrew
Bruce Baugh
>My opinion, is fuk'em if they want to be a whiney pussy then let'em.
This is the sort of post that's very helpful. When one is thinking
"Gee, there're a lot of traffic, I wonder how I can decide what to
skip over", there's nothing like a brave stalwart volunteer to say
"Hey, ignore me, I'm not going to say anything constructive!". Much
obliged.
--
Fenrir Wolf
>Andrew wrote:
>> Yup...But bringing something into the mainstream public (aimed at
>>Coursen who can't
>> seem to be following this correctly) was probably what White Wolf
>>meant when they saud
>> "revolutionizing."
>
>The "revolutionized" part of the statement didn't really offend me.
>Companies make claims like that all the time. It was the "stagnant
>industry" part that I found distasteful. It's one thing to have pride
>in your product and claim that it's the best. It's another to claim
>that everything else is crap.
And another to bash other role playing products in say...the main
sourcebook? White Wolf has something of a rep as snotty and pretentious,
and its propigated by the company itself...
--Fenrir Wolf
Jesus Saves...Roll for Initiative
Or by bashing on other role playing products in say...the main sourcebook?
Fenrir Wolf
[snip 72 column thing]
>Hmm...Now that I look back, this comment was probably concerning width, though at
>the time it didn't even enter my mind -- my mistake. But, if the formatting is that
>fucked, then I advise you either get another news reader or maybe copy and past the
>content into a text editor, and format it there. Novel idea, isn't it?
Ever hear of net etiquette? Welcome to my kill-file, brainwipe.
>Now, can we please end this silly thread? I am growing tired of repeating
>everything, and I already admitted I was wrong about the LARP issue and failing to
>communicate in the first post. So sue me -- I made a mistake. Everyone does, and now
>I've learned that there are people who will drag things well past their intended
>course. Hmm...I just thought that perhaps White Wolf gamers might be a bit more
>mature than that. I apoligize for my ignorance.
Yeah. Mature enough to tell eveyone else to stick it up their hoop sideways
and deal with usenet problems because they're too busy to bother themselves,
right Andy? You're missing a group in your newsgroup subscription list
go find "news.announce.newusers" and look for "netiquette." Do us all a
favor.
Fenrir Wolf
thing we just went over?
Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
[attribution missing]:
>> Possibly, but I think those "How to Host a Murder" games as well as
>> mystery dinners and mystery cruise/train trips generate more cash overall
>> with a wider acceptance of things in 'mainstream' society.
>
>Hmm...How to Host a Murder isn't something I wholly consider my kind of LARP, as in my
>experience, and I admit it may not be true for all of the them, but you can only play
>each box set once...But there may be others with a wider range of options, but even
>so, they are very primitive. Also, the myster dinners/cruises are really LARPs, as the
>only people acting are the hosts of the program, with the guests just trying to figure
>it out. This is only my opinion though.
>
>And the How to Host a Murder games aren't really in mainstream society :) I have
>heardly heard of them over the years.
So you're the expert who defines the genre? It doesn't matter if they're
not your type of LARP or that you hadn't heard of them. There's a
restaurant in Downtown Atlanta that makes sweet money off of this sort of
thing. You have to make reservations at least a week in advance.
They sell out all the time. I think this would make it mainstream.
They wouldn't be able to stay in business otherwise.
Fenrir Wolf
>Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>>First off, yes there were role playing games out then that weren't like AD&D,
>> but I
>>meant LARPs. Again, as far as I'm aware, in none of these games do you
>
>The Society for Interactive Literature, I believe, goes back
>substantially before WW. Certainly Mind's Eye Theatre gave LARP its
>biggest single boost, but various forms of LARP are, if anything,
>older than tabletop gaming.
Just to add to the list, add historical re-enactment groups. It's not
a game, per-se, but it is Live Action Role Playing.
Eloise Beltz-Decker
[with some format editing]
> SD Anderson wrote:
> > In article <35C295B2...@teleport.com>,
> > Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > > That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you
> > >can see what message came before it and who wrote it. But if your too
> > >lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our little reader
> > >doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen. > > >
> >
> > Someday I hope you experience the newsreaders that many people
> > HAVE to use. I'm reminded of the political cartoon showing Reagan
> > and a couple of his staffers in a limo looking out at the street.
> >
> > Reagan says "I don't understand why so many people choose to
> > be poor."
[snippage again]
> Ok I know I said I wouldn't do this again, but now that I am being
> referred to as a snob I need to reply. First, there is a nifty free news
>reader that comes with Netscape and Internet Explorer, which are both
>free. That might solve the income problem. If either you have a Mac, or
>your comp can't handle them, then I apologize, but I do not have the time
>to search all the messages and paste the replies. I mean, I had enough
>free time to respond daily to the posts this week, but since all my
>little buds are returning tomorrow, my social life will continue and I
>probably won't even make an appearance on here for a while. Yup you all
>are probably very happy about that..Hehe
I won't go into the 'Netscape and IE arne't really free' debate right
now. But I will say that the newsreader that comes with Netscape is far
less of a 'real' newsreader than most of the ones people are using here -
at least my reader doesn't (as I've seen yours do once or twice) put
really bad automatic HTML coding into it so everyone who reads in
text-only (probably, on a guess, at least 40% of the net) gets godawful
gobbledygook that if they're like me they just delete without reading.
Most newsreaders will automatically quote the last message, if you tell
them you want to. IE's makes you do something messed up to get it, and is
not very user friendly (imho). Many 'real' newsreaders do not support
threading - or killfiles. Mine doesn't.
> And I would probably be the last person to purposely insult those that
> don't have high grade computer software, because I don't even have a good
> 3D card yet, nor do I have those fucking P2 chips everyone seems to be
> getting. Hell, I don't even own a color printer.
You probably didn't realize you just branded yourself a snob again. I
regularly use a 386SX 33MHz computer. With a 14.4 modem. And that's one
of the best I own. So pardon me if I don't start crying that you don't
even have a 3D chip or a color printer. I only have an 8-pin dot-matrix,
and cannot afford anything better. I do not use Windows (a) because I
dislike giving money to Microsoft, (b) it crashes a lot, and (c) because
my machine will not even dream of running it. So please, spare me your
tiny little violins. Many people out here view your situation as being in
the lap of luxury.
> Andrew
--
--- BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK ---
Version 3.1
Eloise Beltz-Decker GAT/C/L/MU* d+(!) s+: a--
elo...@ripco.com C+++(--) US+ L E---- W+@ N++@
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~eloise/ o++ !w !O M+ V-- PS+ !PE Y+
t+++@ 5++ X+ R[WoD/AD&D]++(*)
& * Blessed be * & b++++@ G+ e* h- r++ x*
--- END GEEKCODE BLOCK ---
SD Anderson
Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> --------------133E4C15406FF1098A977AE6
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> >
>
> First, not all newsreaders or news servers for that matter carry everything
> posted. Even dejanews misses posts now and then.
>
> Alright..Let me address this one by one, and by the way, I do admit when I am wrong
> if I believe I was, and I do apologize for not making my first comment clear as to
> whether I was referring to MET or all RPGs in general. I still stand by that I was
> speaking mainly for LARPs, and that has been discussed earlier, which brings me
> addressing your last comment, in which it is nott my responsibility if a news reader
> misses a post. If your news reader is fucking up, I will not accomadate you for the
> program's screw up. Sorry, but I do not have the time.
>
> Second. You are pretty much answerable to anything you post, even if timepasses,
> until the post drops off most servers. You should NOT assume it is
> the responsibility of other people to dredge up any corrections and fixes
> you posted elsewhere. Does that mean you have to repeat those explanations?
> If the message disapeared or expired, I would not hold anyone responsible for what
> was said. But the fact is, the original conversation is still here in black and
> white, available for anyone with a decent news reader that doesn't miss posts to
> look up and read.
Again, this presumes that the original earlier and later
posts ARE available to any and all readers of the post being
commented on. Not the case.
It's one thing to say 'I addressed this in another post'
and quite another to chastise someone for not having read
all the subsequent posts put out. If any assumptions are
in effect, it would be that anyone responding to post #15
hasn't reached posts 16+ yet.
In telling Deirdre Brooks she had no business responding
to your earlier posts unless she also had later posts to read,
you are coming damned close to declaring WHO can respond
to a post you put out.
Which is about as close to declaring war on every single
person posting on USENET as you really want to come. In
truth, you really would be better off further away than
that.
> Third: It is the POSTER'S responibility to state what he or she means
> clearly and concisely. Your statements to date here have been rather
> easy to misread. Case in point: <snip>
>
> It's REAL REAL REAL HARD to believe you were speaking about LARPS only
> when refering to 'dice rolling'. Sounds to me like you were speaking
> about ALL RPGS that existed before White Wolf when you were saying 'before
> White Wolf came along, all RPGs were...' Know whut ah mean Vern
>
> White Wolf' was a magazine. It's now a game company. And a book
> publisher. Had you spoken of Mind's Eye Theatre, a LOT of the confusion
> YOU caused might have been avoided. It's not the responsibility of anyone
> else here to GUESS at what you meant to say. If you intend to blame anyone
> for any failure to communicate, I suggest you start with this guy named
> 'Andrew'.
>
> I already addressed this comment, and I apologize that I didn't make it clear,
> though when I say I meant LARPs it refers to "...real or no roleplaying..." Again, I
> apologize for not making this clear, and I was wrong in a later post stating that
> MET originated LARPing, which it did not.
And expect to address it as often as it comes up. One of
the inherent problems with the way Usenet operates.
.
>
> Hmm...Now that I look back, this comment was probably concerning width, though at
> the time it didn't even enter my mind -- my mistake. But, if the formatting is that
> fucked, then I advise you either get another news reader or maybe copy and past the
> content into a text editor, and format it there. Novel idea, isn't it?
Almost as novel as hitting the CR key after each line reaches
a specific length. One reason for posting here is that you
are trying to sell a specific point. Not keeping your posts
readable is akin to the salesman who doesn't bathe.
It reduces your salesmanship. As this thread has shown, you
have enough problems getting what you intend to say across. You
don't need to hamper things any further by tossing off lines
that can't fit onto a 14" monitor screen.
> Now, can we please end this silly thread? I am growing tired of repeating
> everything,
WELCOME TO USENET. Repeating yourself is not merely
a way of life here. It's the damn religion!
> and I already admitted I was wrong about the LARP issue and failing to
> communicate in the first post. So sue me -- I made a mistake. Everyone does, and now
> I've learned that there are people who will drag things well past their intended
> course. Hmm...I just thought that perhaps White Wolf gamers might be a bit more
> mature than that. I apoligize for my ignorance.
Hmmm... How many dots of Obfuscate WOULD I need to be able
to loot a National Guard Armoury? ;)
SD Anderson
[long whine about his own experiences on these NGs snipped]
> Never apologise for stating your opinion.
I believe he was apologizing for MISstating his opinion though.
SD Anderson
Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> --------------FCCD3D636C7F0DB6A5972CA9
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
Gee, "How to Host a Murder" box sets were merely in the
game stores that WWGS would eventually send product to years
later, and with Vincent Price's mug on the cover, sold to
hard core gamers and people who wouldn't know a d8 from a
d12.
In short, they are LARP *games* that went mainstream
before WWGS put out their own LARP rules.
Ignorance of what games were out when is not a major
problem. Trying to save face by dismissing these games
as 'non-games' just makes you look like an ass.
>
> I am pretty much summing everything up now -- thank you for giving me the
> oppertunity. Basically, the whole thing started as a misunderstanding on my
> part, which I admit to, but now everyone is rushing at me with their own
> interperetations of history and acting like it is the word of God.
A while back someone mentioned that the fastest way
to learn the actual facts was to post something you
knew was inaccurate as a fact on Usenet. You've
mixed posted inaccurate facts with a general attitude
that it's the fault of the people who've responded,
not you.
This is BEGGING for responses Andrew. Make no
mistake about it whatsoever.
[says "fuck it!" and puts the lines below into a readable size]
> Oh, and I do not apologize for giving my opinions on any of these
> matters, though the reply to your message was rather out of line,
> but could be taken in a sarcastically funny matter if it wasn't for
> the obvious anger set into the thread. What I apoligize for is
> the lack of information on my part, which again, I do admit to,
> but I am rather surprised at the way everyone jumps at a person.
> I mean, my God, if something is already mentioned, do not say it
> again. If your news reader misses posts, then get a new one.
Feel free to send us the money to get the upgrades.
Otherwise learn to deal with what we have.
> It is not my concern nor anyone else's but your own to find some
> way so that you do not sound cliched. God forbid these people
> every get a job at White Wolf.
I believe Bruce Baugh already got one there. ;)
> Now, I do not take any of this personally, and I don't think
> anyone should, but I am annoyed that every day this week some
> one else had to cite something which was already mentioned.
The more you respond to the thread, the more posts
there are, the greater the chance a new person will look
into it and respond. Comes with the territory.
To paraphrase your 'get a new newsreader' comment,
acquire a thicker skin and a stiff upper lip.
Otherwise, expect to go through something like this
again.
[snip]
> I don't want this to turn into a personal discussion,
Far too late ;).
SD Anderson
> That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you can see what message came
> before it and who wrote it. But if your too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our
> little reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen.
>
> Andrew
Someday I hope you experience the newsreaders that many people
HAVE to use. I'm reminded of the political cartoon showing Reagan
and a couple of his staffers in a limo looking out at the street.
Reagan says "I don't understand why so many people choose to
be poor."
There are many other reasons people can't change newsreaders
besides income level though. Understand the distinction between
"can't" and "don't", and you will significantly shorten the
length of that lightning rod you have out attracting flame filled
replies.
Bruce Baugh
>Just to add to the list, add historical re-enactment groups. It's not
>a game, per-se, but it is Live Action Role Playing.
Works for me. Added to the list.
SD Anderson
Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Alright..Well that I did not know. Thank you for teaching me something about the
> > > history of LARPs then :) But you will agree that White Wolf brough LARPs into
> > > the public in a good eye, then? I do think that Minds Eye Theatre did give live
> > > action roleplaying its biggest boost, though...
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> > mystery dinners and mystery cruise/train trips generate more cash overall
> > with a wider acceptance of things in 'mainstream' society.
> >
> >
>
> Hmm...How to Host a Murder isn't something I wholly consider my kind of LARP, as in my
> experience, and I admit it may not be true for all of the them, but you can only play
> each box set once...But there may be others with a wider range of options, but even
> so, they are very primitive. Also, the myster dinners/cruises are really LARPs, as the
> only people acting are the hosts of the program, with the guests just trying to figure
> it out. This is only my opinion though.
1) lots of paying customers to mystery theaters etc.
come IN CHARACTER.
2) Many LARPS are set up with NPC roles. IFGS definitely used
them. I remember one guy who's sole job at an event was to lay in
the grass dead, and let the PCs find the magic ring on his
finger. Human props add to a LARP's credibility. Judging
from the above, it appears you've never been in a LARP that
uses them. Pity.
>
> And the How to Host a Murder games aren't really in mainstream society :) I have
> heardly heard of them over the years.
>
> Andrew
Andrew
>
>
> > It is not my concern nor anyone else's but your own to find some
> > way so that you do not sound cliched. God forbid these people
> > every get a job at White Wolf.
>
> I believe Bruce Baugh already got one there. ;)
>
>
OK this is the last post on this thread I will respond to, though I am interested
in seeing what comes up, since it seems to be getting better and better *eye
roll*. Umm...OK..When I made the comment above, I was not speaking of Bruce Baugh,
who I have no quarrels with because of his ability to state his opinions in an
intelligent manner. I was speaking of the people who seem to like repeating the
same stuff over and over. So if Bruce is reading this, I just wanted to clear that
up.
Oh...Gee what was it I was going to say? Oh, normally I would have no problem with
this repeating crap. But I have just been in a rather pissy mood and 10 people
joining the conversation, all saying the same thing over and over, didn't help
much.
Ah...And does the fact that I fucked up in one message automatically mean I have a
inability to get my point across? I think not.
Andrew
Alright..Last message to this thread. I swear...
Andrew
SD Anderson wrote:
> In article <35C295B2...@teleport.com>,
> Andrew <keld...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> > That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you can see what message came
> > before it and who wrote it. But if your too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our
> > little reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen.
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Someday I hope you experience the newsreaders that many people
> HAVE to use. I'm reminded of the political cartoon showing Reagan
> and a couple of his staffers in a limo looking out at the street.
>
> Reagan says "I don't understand why so many people choose to
> be poor."
>
> There are many other reasons people can't change newsreaders
> besides income level though. Understand the distinction between
> "can't" and "don't", and you will significantly shorten the
> length of that lightning rod you have out attracting flame filled
> replies.
>
>
>
Ok I know I said I wouldn't do this again, but now that I am being referred to as a snob I need to
reply. First, there is a nifty free news reader that comes with Netscape and Internet Explorer,
which are both free. That might solve the income problem. If either you have a Mac, or your comp
can't handle them, then I apologize, but I do not have the time to search all the messages and paste
the replies. I mean, I had enough free time to respond daily to the posts this week, but since all
my little buds are returning tomorrow, my social life will continue and I probably won't even make
an appearance on here for a while. Yup you all are probably very happy about that..Hehe
And I would probably be the last person to purposely insult those that don't have high grade
computer software, because I don't even have a good 3D card yet, nor do I have those fucking P2
chips everyone seems to be getting. Hell, I don't even own a color printer. So the wierd thing is,
but taking snips of my posts and placing them in messages, you have suceeded to make me look like a
snob. Heh..You should probably be a politician, because you have a nice way with words that gets
anyone to believe anything you say. Or a preacher, but...umm..that might not do too much good when
you start telling people that in order to have a nice afterlife, you need to fuck all the time.
Well...then again...
Andrew
Bruce Baugh
>> It is not my concern nor anyone else's but your own to find some
>> way so that you do not sound cliched. God forbid these people
>> every get a job at White Wolf.
> I believe Bruce Baugh already got one there. ;)
As did Justin Achille, who wrote the line about D&D fans that touched
this thing off. Me, I thought it was funny - not a slam at another
company, but a humorous bit of perspective playing on an
all-too-common stereotype. (And as many gaming writers will readily
acknowledge, we often look waaay too much like that stereotype
ourselves....)
Bruce Baugh
>this repeating crap. But I have just been in a rather pissy mood and 10 people
>joining the conversation, all saying the same thing over and over, didn't help
>much.
This is Usenet. Be glad it wasn't 20, or 100. And if you've not read
through the FAQs on news.newusers.questions, do - they've got some
great advice on how to deal with stuff one finds annoying.
Scott Taylor
(Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <6q31sm$b5k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, 10225...@compuserve.com
(SD Anderson) wrote:
>
> >> It is not my concern nor anyone else's but your own to find some
> >> way so that you do not sound cliched. God forbid these people
> >> every get a job at White Wolf.
>
> > I believe Bruce Baugh already got one there. ;)
>
> As did Justin Achille, who wrote the line about D&D fans that touched
> this thing off. Me, I thought it was funny - not a slam at another
> company, but a humorous bit of perspective playing on an
> all-too-common stereotype. (And as many gaming writers will readily
> acknowledge, we often look waaay too much like that stereotype
> ourselves....)
lessee now...
short? check
overweight? <grumble> check
glasses? yup
propeller-beanie syndrome? yeah, on occasion
brain full of worthless trivia? oh, yeah...
opinionated? whattayou, some kind of moron! <check>
doesn't shower enough? Wrong-oh. every day. even if it's raining
Changes clothes? every day
poor social skills? well, better than average... for a gamer
wears odd t-shirts? yeah, at home, or on days off. but they
fit, and they don't have holes, and they
aren't for eighties heavy-metal bands
desperately needs to get laid? none of your damn business (but interested
female persons can send pictures to...)
weird and eccentric music taste? Oh yeah. But at least I have some...
spends more time on computers yeah. sad, but yeah.
than in bars or clubs?
and last but not least...
Thought Justin's comment was Hell yes!
funny?
A *lot* of folks in the industry resemble one or more of the "gamer geek"
stereotypes in one way or another... probably pretty inevitable, no?
After all, none of us are doing this to get rich....
--
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel
NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS: izzy...@frontiernet.net
man...@geocities.com
Just to state right now that I'm not attacking anyone or taking sides in this
rather pointless debate, but I do have something to say about the newsreader
thing.
Not everyone owns the computer they use the read news. For three years my
Internet access was throught the computers at University. It was their
newsreader or nothing. If posts are hard to read in older news readers, many
people don't bother reading them.
As for replying to a post when their are later ones, I know I'm as guilty as
anyone. It happens, you read a post, and reply straight away, if you don't
you'll probably forget what you were going to say anyway. Sometimes you find
later posts afterwards that make your post redundant, it happens.
Also many news severes take a while to get the latest posts, don't always get
them in the right order and don't keep them very long. Again, many people on
the net aren't using their home PC and ISP, and have no control over the
newserver.
Mant
Cyril Pasteau
Wanderer a écrit dans le message <6pvlec$b1q$3...@news.onramp.net>...
(snip)
>Oh, it was very well known before that. Admittedly, not in a *good* way,
>really ... You see, the earliest LARPs were AD&D, such as the one played in
>by James Egbert Dallas III ... he's that kid that ran away from college
>leaving a dungeon map of the college's steam tunnels behind, thus inspiring
>"Mazes and Monsters", by Rona Jaffe (not a very good book, IMO). And when
>you have that book, another less-well-known one, and the published story of
>the private eye that found the kid (look for it by the title the publisher
>selected ... "The Dungeon Master"), LARPing was very much in the public eye
>years before WWGS ever came out with it.
>
>Yours truly,
>
>The historical,
>
>Wanderer**wand...@applink.net
In France the oldest RPG magazine is called Casus Belli. Translated from
Casus Belli n°48, december 1988 (forgive my english):
" (...) an eight pages published by the Game Manufacturer's Association, and
written by Greg Stafford, Loren Wiseman and Michael A.Stackpole. We quote,
after translation:
A matter of accuracy
The Dr. Thomas Radecki, in the 1987 reports of the National Coalition
Against Television Violence (NCTV), quotes Rona Jaffe's book, "Mazes and
Monsters", as being a "work of reporting..." He indicates that the subject
of said book is a case of murder and a riot on the campus of University
Grant of Pequod, Pennsylvania. The "disappearance and probable death" of a
"brilliant and talented student" during "1980 spring" is related, according
to Radecki, to the "violent role-playing game Mazes and Monsters", played on
the campus. Radecki includes even a quote from a student writing in the
newspaper of the school, "I know that Mazes and Monsters is a game very
popular on the campus. I played to it during two years. But last summer, I
destroyed my $100 worth materials. This game takes the control of your life.
You change. I warn strongly any person who would like to begin, one should
not; and I advise any one still playing to stop before it is too late."
BUT
There is no newspaper of the school in University Grant.
There is no University Grant in Pequod, Pennsylvania.
There is no city called Pequod in Pennsylvania.
There is no game called Mazes and Monsters.
The book Mazes and Monsters is a pure fiction book. The fact that the NCTV
quotes it repeatedly as a truthful authority questions the seriousness of
the rest of their work.
End of the quote."
blak...@technologist.com
"Cyril Pasteau" <cyril....@hol.fr> wrote:
> Hello, something bugs me....
>
> Wanderer a écrit dans le message <6pvlec$b1q$3...@news.onramp.net>...
> (snip)
> >Oh, it was very well known before that. Admittedly, not in a *good* way,
> >really ... You see, the earliest LARPs were AD&D, such as the one played in
> >by James Egbert Dallas III ... he's that kid that ran away from college
> >leaving a dungeon map of the college's steam tunnels behind, thus inspiring
> >"Mazes and Monsters", by Rona Jaffe (not a very good book, IMO). And when
> >you have that book, another less-well-known one, and the published story of
> >the private eye that found the kid (look for it by the title the publisher
> >selected ... "The Dungeon Master"), LARPing was very much in the public eye
> >years before WWGS ever came out with it.
> >
> >Yours truly,
> >
> >The historical,
> >
> >Wanderer**wand...@applink.net
> There is no game called Mazes and Monsters.
> The book Mazes and Monsters is a pure fiction book. The fact that the NCTV
> quotes it repeatedly as a truthful authority questions the seriousness of
> the rest of their work.
>
True enough, but it was inspired by the popularity of D&D and the one
incident Wanderer mentioned (and all the stupid accusations of D&D causing
suicides). Though, since we're talking about the history of LARPS....
D&D was never meant to be a LARP. What *was* being played at about the
same time was a game called 'Killer' which was meant to be played live-
action. Killer also got in trouble when some particularly dumb players
took it too far (in the case I remember, 'too far' was pointing a prop gun
at a police officer, with predictable results....)
So, yeay, LARPs have been around for quite a while, the acronym just
hadn't been coined yet, and they were a bit more of a 'fringe' thing
to actual roleplaying, and got some bad press, even among gamers, but
they were there.
Greg Shetler
>[snip self-serving whining, back-pedalling, and general BSing]
> Hell, I don't even own a color printer. So the wierd thing is,
> but taking snips of my posts and placing them in messages, you have suceeded to make me look like a
> snob. Heh..You should probably be a politician, because you have a nice way with words that gets
> anyone to believe anything you say. Or a preacher, but...umm..that might not do too much good when
> you start telling people that in order to have a nice afterlife, you need to fuck all the time.
No, you painted yourself as a snob very nicely. I quote:
"That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you
can see what message came before it and who wrote it. But if your
too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our little
reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and
Coursen."
This is the other reason they invented threading, BTW. To throw BS back
at those who spawn it, then try to pretend it's not theirs....
Greg
Greg Shetler
>
> > Since you didn't quote any of the previous message, one wonders who the
> > mysterious 'you' is.
> >
> > SoK
>
> That's why they invented the thread system isn't it? So that you can see what message came
> before it and who wrote it. But if your too lazy to either switch it on or for some reason our
> little reader doesn't allow it, the message was aimed at Brooks and Coursen.
Oh, dear, pissy, pissy. Elitism tends to detract from credibility.
Might want to watch that.... So does extraordinary sensitivity to
criticism, when it comes from a critic....
Greg
Greg Shetler
>
> Yes well, I don't always wish for people to have to flood through past messages to get to mine,
> and since the conversation was originally between only 2 people, I saw no need to catch others up.
>
Isn't this precisely what you were asking the poster you pissed on to
do? To 'flood through past messages' to read all posts prior to the one
they wished to respond to? Even though the messages you refer to may
have timed out on their server?
Hypocrisy - is it as sweet for you as it is for me?
Greg
Greg Shetler
>
> Try posting in 72 columns? Nah, I'm afraid I don't see a need to offer my
> opinion in every single thread, and that still isn't an excuse for not knowing
> what has been said in a conversation originally between two people. Second, if
> you don't believe the explanation, then you don't, and that is your problem,
> because I know what I meant when I wrote it, and if I didn't make it clear,
> then I apologize.
You're pathetic! She means post your text in 72 columns, so that
newsreaders that don't automatically wrap can present it properly.
Moreover, if you're posting on usenet, it's not a conversation between
two people. It's a conversation available at any point to everyone on
the net. If you don't like that, or can't handle interruption to make a
point that's already been made, then take it to e-mail.
Greg
Greg Shetler
>[snip]If your news reader is fucking up, I will not
> accomadate you for the program's screw up. Sorry, but I do not have
> the time.
Nobody's asking you to be accomodating. Just asking you to realize that
you are participating in a forum that has many different levels of
participation, and many different levels of visibility. And not be a
prick just because somebody else operates at a different level from your
own.
> If the message disapeared or expired, I would not hold anyone
> responsible for what was said. But the fact is, the original
> conversation is still here in black and white, available for anyone
> with a decent news reader that doesn't miss posts to look up and read.
>
Yeah. It was available ON YOUR NEWS SERVER. Get the point? It was not
available on all news servers. You cannot assume that the entire
conversation is always available to everyone, just 'cause you pay enough
for a news server that will maintain the entire thing.
> Hmm...Now that I look back, this comment was probably concerning
> width, though at the time it didn't even enter my mind -- my mistake.
> But, if the formatting is that fucked, then I advise you either get
> another news reader or maybe copy and past the content into a text
> editor, and format it there. Novel idea, isn't it?
You certainly aren't paying attention. Just because you have freedom of
choice does not mean everyone else does. Re-read the thread.
>
> Now, can we please end this silly thread? I am growing tired of
> repeating everything, and I already admitted I was wrong about the
> LARP issue and failing to communicate in the first post. So sue me --
> I made a mistake. Everyone does, and now I've learned that there are
> people who will drag things well past their intended course. Hmm...I
> just thought that perhaps White Wolf gamers might be a bit more mature
> than that. I apoligize for my ignorance.
You're right. We should all have had the maturity to understand that
you're just a punk kid playing around on computer that you don't like
because it's no longer cutting edge, with an ISP that makes sure that
you never have to deal with the vagaries of the forum in which you are
participating, and with enough time to always read an entire thread
before posting. We should have had the maturity to just ignore your
spastic little spew of net-spittle. Oh, well. Mea culpa. Stupidity
and arrogance tend to piss me off, even from whiners like you.
Greg