HERO: Problem
Chad Russell Weetman
I'm having a problem with SPD and END use:
Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
In a related matter (sort of):
Does "Move Through" use velocity per Phase to calculate damage? If so,
doesn't that mean that the amount of damage done isn't really related to
the attackers speed at all? Two characters that fly 20" per phase would
do the same damage (without the STR bonus of course) but one could
be moving 80" per Turn (with a SPD of 4) and the other could be going
160" per Turn (with a SPD of 8). What's going on here?
Any enlightenment on these matters would be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
crw
Andrew Finch
: I'm having a problem with SPD and END use:
: Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
: for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
: can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
Yes, the speed 4 uses hlf as much. The justification is that there is
none. You pay to use a power, and even defensive powers are more useful
to those with higher speeds. A Force Field gets paid for every phase,
because every phase it allows you to act in ways which someone without
the power could not. It's game balance purely.
By the way, their is a rule which allows you to voluntarily lower your
speed to 2, thereby conserving END (like, while drowning). You can only
make speed changes post phase 12.
: In a related matter (sort of):
: Does "Move Through" use velocity per Phase to calculate damage? If so,
: doesn't that mean that the amount of damage done isn't really related to
: the attackers speed at all? Two characters that fly 20" per phase would
: do the same damage (without the STR bonus of course) but one could
: be moving 80" per Turn (with a SPD of 4) and the other could be going
: 160" per Turn (with a SPD of 8). What's going on here?
Purely simplification. Remember that you can go 20" in Champions, then
stop, then go 20" again, and all very quickly (accelerate or decelerate
5" per hex). So the character at Speed 4 is not necessarily going half as
fast on a combat scale map. Trying to find true velocity per second is
very difficult. To keep things sane, and to enhance tactical combat with
a 4 color superhero flavor, they use the velocity per phase of the
moment.
David
Greywolf
> Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
> for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
> can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
(trumpet fanfare) Congratulations! You've just found one of those ANNOYING
little warps in the rules of Champions, and one of the reasons why I've just
thrown out SPD entirely in my campaign. (Or, to clarify, I have everybody
essentially moving at SPD 3, with no modifications due to DEX [DEX is still
worth the points anyway.] and if people want extra /attacks/, I wrote up an
"extra attack talent" so that after each phase, the folks with "extra attacks"
resolve them in an "extra phase" before everybody else gets to act.)
Continuous powers eat up END for each character phase that they are running.
Effects that last for X phases also depend upon the SPD of the character
causing and/or affected by the power. For instance, characters with higher SPD
tend to recover from the effects of a Flash attack more quickly than mere
mortals at SPD 2. Characters with high SPD drown more quickly. =)
Of course, if I'm wrong on any of this, never fear, somebody will correct me
and do so several times over! ;)
> Does "Move Through" use velocity per Phase to calculate damage? If so,
> doesn't that mean that the amount of damage done isn't really related to
> the attackers speed at all? Two characters that fly 20" per phase would
> do the same damage (without the STR bonus of course) but one could
> be moving 80" per Turn (with a SPD of 4) and the other could be going
> 160" per Turn (with a SPD of 8). What's going on here?
(trumpet fanfare again) Yep! This is a classic example that was given to me a
while back, and yet ANOTHER reason I hate the SPD factor. The example I was
given went thusly:
Q: You have two generic vehicles heading toward each other at the exact same
speed, with the same size, mass and armor. Which one inflicts more damage upon
the other?
A: The less-maneuverable vehicle inflicts more damage upon the other.
Why? Well, let's say that vehicle A is moving at 60" per phase with a SPD of
4. Vehicle B is moving at 80" per phase with a SPD of 3. The total /speed/ of
the vehicles (in the real sense) is equivalent. It would be 240" per turn (and
I didn't buy Lightning Calculator, so I can't compute that right off into
meters per second. =) ) for both of them.
Damage upon collision is determined by how many inches the vehicle moved during
its last phase of movement. In this case, Vehicle B would have jumped 80"
during its last phase, while Vehicle A would have only jumped 60". The
erroneous assumption of the rules-writers is that somehow this particular chop
out of the vehicle's movement-per-turn represents a valid estimate of its total
/speed/. Maybe for purposes of abstraction, it's easier to calculate, but with
the wildly varying SPD factors that occur in the Hero System (and particularly
Champions), IMHO this just /does not/ work. =P
If/when fifth edition comes out, this is something that could certainly use
some fixing. Personally, I'd like to see the SPD factor revamped entirely. In
Superheroic campaigns, having characters with various rates of action seems
perfectly normal, as super-fast superheroes aren't all that uncommon. However,
in /heroic/ campaigns, it just doesn't make as much sense that with a single
attribute, within the bounds of abilities of "mere normals", an athlete with
SPD of 4 runs twice as fast as someone with SPD of 2 ... but he ALSO talks
twice as fast, can cast spells twice as fast, can FIRE HIS GUN twice as fast
(!), can use his skills twice as fast, drowns twice as fast, etc., etc., ad
nauseum. =P It's just ... bizarre.
Disclaimer: I still love the Hero System overall. I just don't like END and
SPD.
--
-Jordan .. PEACO...@cobra.uni.edu <New, improved, friendly,
.OO. Jordan Greywolf (Jordan Peacock) mushy, non-controversial
O/\O 1610 Parker .sig, due to popular
~~ Cedar Falls, IA 50613 demand! =) >
I love ... God, my family, my friends, unicorns, wolves, miscellaneous
critters, LARPs, RPGs, miniatures, doodling, sculpting, writing, gaming,
old cars, giant Japanese robots, anime, computer animation, and donuts. =)
William Robinson
: In article <3c5fe9$d...@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu>, cwee...@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Chad Russell Weetman) writes:
: > Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
: > for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
: > can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
: (trumpet fanfare) Congratulations! You've just found one of those ANNOYING
: Of course, if I'm wrong on any of this, never fear, somebody will correct me
: and do so several times over! ;)
Speed can always be lowered to 2 for continous powers
--
My first sigfile
Billy Robinson
bvsn...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu
John Martin Karakash
|>I'm having a problem with SPD and END use:
|>
|>Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
|>for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
|>can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
Yep, that's the case. Justification.... well.... =)
The candle that burns at both ends burns out twice as fast?
-john-
--
George Novodvorsky
: For instance, characters with higher SPD
: tend to recover from the effects of a Flash attack more quickly than mere
: mortals at SPD 2. Characters with high SPD drown more quickly. =)
: Of course, if I'm wrong on any of this, never fear, somebody will correct me
: and do so several times over! ;)
Can I be first, can I, can I? You can lower your SPD to 2 at the end of any
turn you want to. The example given in the BBB specifically cites
drowning. And frankly I don't see what's wrong with high SPD characters
recovering from Flashes faster - superheroes shake off Flashes faster than
normals, what else is new?
: > Does "Move Through" use velocity per Phase to calculate damage? If so,
: > doesn't that mean that the amount of damage done isn't really related to
: > the attackers speed at all? Two characters that fly 20" per phase would
: > do the same damage (without the STR bonus of course) but one could
: > be moving 80" per Turn (with a SPD of 4) and the other could be going
: > 160" per Turn (with a SPD of 8). What's going on here?
: (trumpet fanfare again) Yep! This is a classic example that was given
: to me a while back, and yet ANOTHER reason I hate the SPD factor.
: Disclaimer: I still love the Hero System overall. I just don't like END and
: SPD.
<Sobs in agreement>. Another problem was "Just-Wait-'Til-I-Get-Going Man",
who, for spending a few points on non-combat multiplier to movement could
powder (2x BODY) the earth easily (of course (1) he would be pancaked
himself, and (2) he would actually have trouble hitting the planet (!!) at
that speed, but the point still stands). The problem is that movement, and
the damage effects of movement, is linear, while most other powers and
damage effects are logarithmic (every 5 points doubles your strength in
terms of how much you can lift, but still adds only 1d6 damage)
The neatest solution I saw on the net some months ago went something like
this (sorry to the originator, I forgot your name):
Change movement to a base 12" per turn rather than 6" per phase.
The cost of movement powers is determined differently: pay the base cost to
fly (for example) at 12" per turn, then every additional 10 (not 5) points
gets you:
x2 movement per turn
+2d6 move-through damage (take 1/2 yourself, full if no KB)
+1d6 move-by damage (take 1/3 yourself).
Any character can move 2x faster than normal by lowering DCV to 1/2 normal
and OCV to 0 (non-combat equivalent). Additional x2 movement levels that
only work at 1/2 DCV, OCV 0, are bought at a -1 limitation. Other than this
there is no longer any distinction between combat and non-combat movement.
This requires an additional step which can usually be done in character
creation: divide your per-turn movement by your current SPD, and this is
your per-phase movement.
Now, for a reasonable amount of points, characters can go _really_fast_,
just like Superman, or the Flash, without the stipulation that they can't
attack anybody. On the other hand, point levels stay reasonably the same.
Also, the importance of SPD is somewhat dimished.
Remember, though, speedsters, you probably have what is called a "turn
mode" each phase - unless you buy this off, you can't make tight turns, and
can't go fast in enclosed or crowded spaces without a good SPD, or the
willingness to constantly crash into things (which might be fun, who knows?) .
If all of your characters have SPD 5, you may want to make base movement
10" or 15" per turn rather than 12", for easier division.
It is also so far GMs choice as to how this applies to Teleport - any one
willing to play test this?
George, who hasn't play tested these rules....
Jeff Kesselman
Greywolf <peaco...@cobra.uni.edu> wrote:
>In article <3c5fe9$d...@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu>, cwee...@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Chad Russell Weetman) writes:
>> Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
>> for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
>> can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
>
>(trumpet fanfare) Congratulations! You've just found one of those ANNOYING
>little warps in the rules of Champions, and one of the reasons why I've just
>thrown out SPD entirely in my campaign. (Or, to clarify, I have everybody
>essentially moving at SPD 3, with no modifications due to DEX [DEX is still
>worth the points anyway.] and if people want extra /attacks/, I wrote up an
>"extra attack talent" so that after each phase, the folks with "extra attacks"
>resolve them in an "extra phase" before everybody else gets to act.)
>
Actually, I disagree. I DON'T think thsi is a problem. Thsi is design.
Speed is VERY powerful, so it has its costs. These are both the obvious
(10pts/pip) and less obvious (continuos powers cost more END.)
I have been playign Hero since playtest on the original Champions (and
original Fntasy hero which was actually started first, buts thats another
story) and ahve always found this system to be well balanced ALA speed.
TANSTAAFL!
Oh, and BTW, regarding another comment in your post-- apparently you
played speed WRONG. You do not have to wait for action to talk. Talkign
is a 0 phase action and can thus occur at any time.
Jeff Kesselman
Mutant for Hire
>Does a character with a SPD of 4 use half as much END to keep up a power
>for a Turn (ie. 12 seconds) as a character with a SPD of 8? If so,
>can anyone explain what the justification is for this?
The answer is yes, and the justification is: that's how the rules work.
As it stands, I find the SPD rules a little broken in areas. The main
changes I've made to HERO rules is to base END costs for continuous
powers on a per turn basis period, period, and to fix movement to a
per turn basis as well. Increasing SPD doesn't mean you can run any
farther or swim any farther in a turn. I'm tinkering with reducing the
cost of SPD a little, since it no longer does quite so much per level.
So why have a high SPD? Because you can still do more things a round.
If two people have the same running speed but one is SPD 4 and the other
is SPD 8, if they both declare they are running, the one with SPD 8
can make twice as many course changes, react to twice as many events
even while running. Might even impose penalties for trying to navigate
obstacles during a segment the character is not given by their SPD.
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
mfte...@phoenix.princeton.edu mfte...@pucc.bitnet an7...@anon.penet.fi
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Greywolf
> : Of course, if I'm wrong on any of this, never fear, somebody will correct me
> : and do so several times over! ;)
>
> Can I be first, can I, can I? You can lower your SPD to 2 at the end of any
BZZZT! Nope, sorry, you can't. Two people have already beaten you, and
judging from how I'm still seeing responses to my /initial/ posts in some
threads that have been going on for quite some time now, this isn't likely to
be the LAST time I'll hear somebody say this.
However, it does nothing to improve my view of how SPD works. Okay, so I can
slow down my SPD, only on phase 12. Uhm... How do I translate this into
real-world terms? I'm an athlete at SPD 4, but while I'm sinking like a rock,
I somehow mystically go into slo-mo so I don't drown as quickly?
(suggestion to base movement off of /turns/ rather than /phases/ deleted)
IMHO, this makes the most sense to me. You see, when I saw the "SPD" factor,
my first inclination was to think that somehow Champions was following the path
of Star Fleet Battles or Car Wars by dividing up your total movement into
phases so that rather than moving in big hops, you could micromanage the action
over time. However, Champions uses the concept of "phases" in a completely
different way -- They represent a number of actions where you /are/ "hopping",
but only more so! The whole system of SPD, while novel, is ... well ... MESSY.
Mark C. Landin
>Greywolf (peaco...@cobra.uni.edu) wrote:
>: For instance, characters with higher SPD
>: tend to recover from the effects of a Flash attack more quickly than mere
>: mortals at SPD 2. Characters with high SPD drown more quickly. =)
>: Of course, if I'm wrong on any of this, never fear, somebody will correct me
>: and do so several times over! ;)
>Can I be first, can I, can I? You can lower your SPD to 2 at the end of any
>turn you want to. The example given in the BBB specifically cites
>drowning. And frankly I don't see what's wrong with high SPD characters
>recovering from Flashes faster - superheroes shake off Flashes faster than
>normals, what else is new?
We tried modifying Flash attacks to be based on segments rather than phases.
We rolled the effect, subtracted target's Flash Defense, then doubled the
result to get # of segments the target was flashed. (Since our average SPD
was 6, doubling was appropriate. If your average SPD is 9, you may want to
triple, etc.) It seemed to work well, and it simplified bookkeeping
somewhat.
--
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Mark C. Landin "Those who wish to be must put aside the *
* Systems Manager alienation; get on with the fascination, *
* Northeastern State Univ. the real relation, the underlying theme" *
John H Kim
Through damage was based on inches per _phase_, which is not the same as
actual velocity.
In response, I am posting an optional system I have developed to
address this and several other points. It is fairly simple, IMO, and it
does a nice job of giving a coherent set of velocity-based damages. The
same, simple mechanics can be used for move-throughs, vehicle impact,
falling damage, and thrown objects (which even agree with HERO bullet
damages).
Anyhow, all that is explained in the article below...
***************************************************************************
A NEW VELOCITY-BASED MOVEMENT SYSTEM FOR HERO
By John H. Kim <jh...@columbia.edu>
***************************************************************************
1 MOTIVATION
==========
This is an article on a new system I have for velocity and movement
in the Hero system, for additional realism and balance. It replaces many
existing rules: movement costs, move-throughs, throwing, and falling
damage. Thus you should consider it carefully - but I think it is quite
simple and playable.
The reason I introduce it is that I am dissatisfied in many ways
with the way velocity and in particular velocity-based damage are
currently handled. Some odd points I have noticed are:
--> Velocity based damage can get really abusive, especially with non-combat
multiples. A Cadillac at top speed does 55d6! A STR 40 character with
20'' of Running can do 15d6 damage, even though each power is less
than 30 active points.
--> A vehicle will a lower SPD stat will produce more damage for the same
velocity (in inches per turn) because its moves a greater number of
inches per _phase_. Thus, a less maneuverable car going at the same
speed will do more damage. This seems rather odd.
--> My character can lift a tank (STR 55) but with a standing throw he can't
throw a football the length of a football field! That's just silly.
The system outlined here deals with movement in terms of inches
per _turn_ rather than per _phase_, since phases are differing amounts of
time. It bases damage on a logarithmic chart, but that chart is already
in the rules and fairly useful.
Adopting this drastically reduces the maximum damage produced by
speedsters and vehicle impact, as well as reducing falling damage. While
this makes falls and vehicle impacts less deadly, this is consistant with
the lethality HERO gives to guns, knives, etc. If you want a more deadly
game, either reduce the BODY which humans have or (equivalently) increase
the xBODY multiple on the Hit Location chart.
I would recommend the system for realistic or heroic campaigns,
and also for any campaigns where velocity-based damage is a major
concern.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
2 CHARACTERS
==========
In the full system, movement powers are bought in terms of inches
per _turn_ rather than inches per _phase_. Thus, all of the movement
powers have altered costs. However, you need not switch to this in order
to use the system. Just take base HERO characters and figure out their
movement in inches per turn by multiplying Movement by SPD. Skip over
all the references to point costs, to the section on _Velocity Factor_.
The reason for using the point costs is that in this system, more
effects are based on your velocity in inches per turn. Thus it seems
reasonable to pay for movement on the same scale.
SPD thus becomes more a _mental_ characteristic, which represents
how quickly you can think and coordinate your actions - particularly in
combat. A person with a 1 SPD might run just as quickly as someone else,
but he is so flustered and confused during combat that he can decide on a
new action only once every 12 seconds.
Characteristics
---------------
Running and Swimming now have different starting and maximum values,
of course, as follows:
Running: Base 12''/turn; Maximum 24''/turn
Swimming: Base 4''/turn; Maximum 8''/turn
Movement Powers
---------------
The costs for movement powers are such that they work out the
same as before for a SPD 4 character.
Flight: 1pt for 2''/turn of Flight, x2 NC Mult for +5pts (Min 10pts)
Gliding: 1pt for 4''/turn of Gliding, x2 NC Mult for +5pts (Min 5pts)
Running: 1pt for 2''/turn of Running, x2 NC Mult for +5pts
Superleap: _Unchanged_
Swimming: 1pt for 4''/turn of Swimming, x2 NC Mult for +5pts
Teleport: _Unchanged_
To get movement per phase, you divide the inches per turn by your
SPD stat (always round down). You should note this in the Movement
allowance box.
Under powers, you should write down the inches per turn, and the
corresponding Velocity Factor.
Velocity Factor
---------------
``Aha!'', you cry, ``What is this Velocity Factor thing? This
*is* a hideously complicated system.''
Well, no, not really. The `Velocity Factor' of a moving object
(abbreviated VLF) is identical to DCV based on velocity, as shown on the
chart on page 142 of the HERO system rulebook. Reproduced below is the
chart for Velocity Factor, handily combined with the HERO Range Modifier
chart. Note that it is interpolated from the chart on page 142 to
allow for even numbered VLF's.
------------------------------------------------------------------
|Range (in inches) OR | | |
|Velocity (in ''/turn) | VLF | Range Mod |
|----------------------|-----------------|-----------------------|
| 1'' - 4'' | 0 | 0 |
| 5'' - 6'' | 0 | 1 |
| 7'' - 8'' | 0 | 2 |
| 9'' - 12'' | 1 (Combat Run) | 3 |
| 13'' - 16'' | 1 | 4 |
| 17'' - 24'' | 1 (Max Human) | 5 (10 stories) |
| 25'' - 32'' | 2 | 6 |
| ... - 48'' | 3 (Horse) | 7 |
| - 64'' | 4 | 8 (Football field) |
| - 96'' | 5 | 9 |
| - 128'' | 6 (50 MPH) | 10 |
| - 192'' | 7 | 11 |
| - 250'' | 8 (100 MPH) | 12 |
| - 375'' | 9 | 13 |
| - 500'' | 10 (200 MPH) | 14 |
| - 750'' | 11 | 15 |
| - 1000'' | 12 | 16 (1 mile) |
| - 1500'' | 13 | 17 |
| - 2000'' | 14 (Mach 1) | 18 |
| ... | | |
------------------------------------------------------------------
I will also refer to the `Mass Factor' of an object or person
(abbreviated MASS). This is just the STR value required to lift an object
of that mass, as figured on the STR chart on page 173 of the HERO system
rulebook.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
3 RESOLUTION
==========
The factors outlined above are used in the new formulas for handling
Move-By/Through, Falling, and Throwing. There are a few basic assumptions
which are made:
A Move-Through can now represent just about _any_ sort of impact,
from one football player sacking another to a shotput slamming into a wall.
There are two cases. First, a _controlled_ Move-Through, where the attacker
is moving under his own power (i.e. running, flight) and rams the target.
The second case is an _uncontrolled_ Move-Through, where an object
is thrown, falls, or otherwise crashes into the target.
to represent almost any collision. For example, falling damage is handled
simply as an uncontrolled Move-Through on the ground.
Thrown objects can, in principle, be resolved as uncontrolled Move-
Throughs of the object on the target - although this is too complex for
practical use. For simplicity, I again make two cases: a short-range
_combat throw_ at full OCV; and a longer-range _non-combat throw_.
Combat Maneuvers
----------------
MANEUVER OCV DCV EFFECTS
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Move-By | -2 | -2 | STR/2 + (VLF)d6 |
| Move-Through | -(VLF) | -3 | (STR or MASS) + (VLF)d6 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Combat Throw | +0 | +0 | STR * |
| Non-Combat Throw | @ | +0 | STR * |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
@ Zero OCV unless the target is non-moving
* Max damage of object's DEF+BODY or MASS+DEX/3, whichever is lower.
MOVE-BY: This maneuver is handled as in the basic rules. The only change
is that the added damage is based on VLF rather than (v/5).
MOVE-THROUGH: For a _controlled_ Move-Through, the attacker may use the
greater of his STR or MASS to determine the damage (for vehicles or
characters). For an _uncontrolled_ Move-Through, the attacker must
use his MASS to determine damage.
Example: An animated statue is charging at someone at 24'' per turn
(VLF 1). The statue has 5 levels of Density Increase, but only 20 STR.
It will use its MASS of 35 in order to get a base damage of 7+1=8d6.
If the attacker did no Knockdown or Knock, then he takes the full
STUN and BODY of the Move-Through. Otherwise, he takes half the damage.
Furthermore, if a living character which does an uncontrolled
Move-Through, then the damage which he takes is _doubled_. That is, if
he does knockback to his target, he takes the *full* amount of damage
he did. If he fails to do knockback to his target, he takes *twice* as
much damage as he did to it. This is because he was braced badly for
the impact.
A successful Breakfall roll (with GM determined penalties) will
_halve_ this damage: thus making it equivalent to a controlled
Move-Through. This doubling also applies to humanoid robots or any other
characters with similar structure. Only block objects like cars are
not affected.
COMBAT THROW: This is a throw at full OCV plus range mods. The object hits
in the same phase it is thrown. The range calculation is given below.
In order to even attempt a combat throw, your STR must be 15 more than
neccessary to lift the object. If not, then you are limited to a
non-combat throw.
Note the limits on damage due to the DEF+BODY of the object, and
due to the velocity limit (explained below). If the object is sharp like
a knife or javelin, then you should add 1 to the damage, and convert it
to a Killing Attack of the same Damage Class. However, throwing a sharp
object will generally require a Weapon Familiarity.
NON-COMBAT THROW: This throw has a longer range since it is lobbed high -
the range calculation is given below. The object will take one or more
segments to reach its target, and unless the target is completely
non-moving, you will strike with zero OCV. However, you can aim at a
stationary target with full OCV (plus range mods).
Falling Damage
--------------
Falling damage is identical to an uncontrolled Move-Through on the
ground. Since presumably the target does no knockback to the Earth, he takes
damage of MASS+VLF, doubled unless he successfully makes his Breakfall roll
(remember that there is a penalty of -1 per 2'' fallen). Even without
breakfall a character may subtract his (combat) leaping distance from
the _distance_ fallen if he uses a held action upon impact.
Example: A normal person is falling at terminal velocity 30'' x 12 =
360''/turn. This is VLF 9. His MASS is 10, since it takes STR 10 to lift
him. Thus he takes 2d6 for his mass, +9d6 for velocity (11d6 total),
which is doubled to 22d6 unless he makes his Breakfall roll (which is
vitually impossible given the penalty for distance fallen).
Example 2: A normal person falls from the top of a 3-story building (5'').
He does not have Breakfall, but he uses a held action to subtract his
3'' of leap from the distance fallen. Thus he takes 2d6 for his mass,
+4d6 for velocity (6d6 total), which is doubled to 12d6.
--------------------------------------------------------
| Segment | Velocity | VLF | Distance |
--------------------------------------------------------
| 1 | 5''/seg | 4 | 2'' (second story) |
| 1.5 | 7''/seg | 5 | 6'' (fourth story) |
| 2 | 10'' | 6 | 10'' (sixth story) |
| 3 | 15'' | 7 | 22'' (thirteenth story) |
| 4 | 20'' | 8 | 40'' (22nd story) |
| 5 | 25'' | 9 | 62'' (33th story) |
| 6 | 30'' | 9 | 90'' (50th story) |
| 7 | 30'' | 9 | 120'' (65th story) |
| ... | 30'' | 9 | ... |
--------------------------------------------------------
These damages presume falling on a hard surface of concrete or
asphalt. Soft earth, say, might be -2d6 or more.
Throwing
--------
The range and velocity of a throw are based on how much your STR
is greater than the MASS of the thrown object. The formula will give you
a Range Mod or a Velocity Factor. You must then work backwards using the
chart provided to figure out what the range/velocity is in inches. For
example, you may find a Range Mod of 4. Looking on the chart RMod 4
corresponds to 13''-16''. Thus you have a 16'' range.
----------------------------------------------------
| Thrown Object: VLF = (STR-MASS) / 5 |
| |
| Combat Throw Range: Max RMod = VLF - 3 |
| Non-combat Throw Range: Max RMod = (2xVLF) - 6 |
----------------------------------------------------
The above assumes that you are throwing a reasonably aerodynamic,
wieldy object like a football, pole, or such. The GM should feel free to
impose penalties to the VLF as well as penalties to the thrower's Range
Mod for unbalanced/unaerodynamic objects.
In addition, there is a _maximum_ velocity with which you can throw
an object, since you can only move your hand with a certain speed. Thus
characters cannot throw very small objects like pennies at ridiculous
speeds. The maximum VLF is equal to your base CV (i.e. your DEX/3).
----------------------------------------------------
| Thrown Object: Max VLF = DEX / 3 |
----------------------------------------------------
Example: A football player of STR 20 throws a football (MASS = -25).
This would mean that he could throw is (45/5 = 9 ) at VLF 9. However,
his DEX is only 17, so he can throw it at most (17/3 = 6) at VLF 6
(i.e. 50 MPH).
The system may seem complicated, but really it is fairly fast as
long as you keep a copy of the Velocity/Range table on hand. The only
cumbersome part is if you have to find out exactly how long a non-combat
throw takes to reach its target. To do this, you must find out its real
velocity on the chart and divide the distance to the target by that
velocity.
Large Example: The football player from before throws the football at
VLF 6. This means that he can make a combat throw out to ( 6-3 = 3 ) is
RMod 3 (i.e. 12''); to bounce it off an opponents helmet, for example.
However, he chooses to throw it down the field, aiming at the hex where
he hopes the receiver will be. The distance he can reach ( (2x6)-6 = 6 )
is RMod 6 (i.e. 32''). This is 64m, which is close to the length of a
football field, interestingly enough.
The ball is travelling at approx 128'' per turn, which is 11'' per
segment, or 50 MPH. Thus to reach its maximum range of 32'' will take
3 segments.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
4 NOTES
=====
Being a Champions player - my main motivation in starting this was
reducing the abusive potential of Move-throughs. Being a physicist, I
tried to make the system as consistantly realistic as possible.
All the numbers in the system are based on Newtonian physics. It
is my assertion that damage in Champions is on a logarithmic scale, where
Kinetic Energy is roughly proportional to damage. +1 DC represents
_doubling_ the kinetic energy of the attack.
Note that my system reflects the (1/2 * M * V^2) relation of
Newtonian physics: doubling velocity on the chart gives +2 DC (corresponding
to 4 times as much energy), while doubling the Mass gives only +1 DC on the
STR chart.
In fact, I find that the Move-Through damages work quite well for
all sorts of damages. The formula even produces good numbers for
HERO bullet damages (check a copy of Jane's or other handbook on bullet
stats). Bullets should be considered sharp: add 1 to the DC and convert
to a Killing Attack.
The throwing distances are similarly physical: given the initial
speed of a thrown object, it is easy to calculate the maximum distance it
can be thrown (in a normal gravity field on a flat surface). When solved,
this gives:
DISTANCE = V^2 / (9.8 m/s^2) , with V = velocity.
However, as the maximum _combat_ throw, I approximated the
greatest distance which an object will travel in one second - since in
order to have a reasonable OCV, the object has to hit its target on the
same segment. The split between `combat' throws and non-combat throws is,
of course, rather artificial - but I think it works well enough.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "Whatever else is true, you - trust your little finger.
jh...@columbia.edu | Just a single little finger can... change the world."
Columbia University | - Stephen Sondheim, _Assassins_
George Novodvorsky
... a really neat system, with perhaps one problem ...
: Furthermore, if a living character which does an uncontrolled
: Move-Through, then the damage which he takes is _doubled_. That is, if
: he does knockback to his target, he takes the *full* amount of damage
: he did. If he fails to do knockback to his target, he takes *twice* as
: much damage as he did to it. This is because he was braced badly for
: the impact.
This is what worries me. Consider both cases where it pretty much applies:
1) The Amazing Brick grabs an adversary. Now he has 2 choices, squeeze or
throw. Before, either did pretty much the same damage - now, he can throw
the adversary into the ground, and do twice as much damage as he could by
squeezing (presumably the adversary is not to be considered braced)? Or is
this x2 already counted in to the STR damage from throwing an opponent - in
which case, does the target of a throw only take 1/2 as much damage?
2) The same Amazing Brick is falling to Earth from orbit (considering that
this is a Superhero game, this is not as rare an occasion as might first
appear). Presumably he has lots of phases to prepare to meet his maker,
assuming he can hold his breath long enough not to pass out. So he makes
the following argument to the GM: "Look, I have done flying Move-Thru's
fairly often, for instance when I leap at a low-flying villain, or am
thrown by the Spectacular Brick in a "fastball" combat maneuver.
Therefore, I should be able to brace myself as I do when I am about to
crash into any other object." Does he still take x2 damage? If so, why? If
not, does he get away with no more than 12d6? That makes falling from orbit
not as nasty at all - even a normal might survive with a bit of luck.
George, who still likes the system fragment he posted, because it was
1) simpler
2) allowed for really fast Combat Movement
(otherwise consider the hero who runs as fast as a car drives: he probably
can't punch out the driver - it would cost too much!)
Hero Games
jh...@namaste.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
<<I am posting an optional system I have developed to
address this and several other points.>>
John, I'll look this over carefully; it sounds very interesting. Have you
thought about submitting this to the Adventurers Club magazine as an
article? I'll pass it along to the editor, if you like. You can reach him
(Bruce Harlick) at bru...@aol.com.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
John H Kim
system. In the system as I had outlined, all impacts could basically
be resolved as Move-Throughs.
An uncontrolled Move-Through is where a character (or object)
hits into something not under his own power. In this case, the "feedback"
damage of the Move-Through is _doubled_ unless the character makes a
Breakfall roll. That is, if he does knockback to his target, he takes the
*full* amount of damage he did. If he fails to do knockback to his target,
he takes *twice* as much damage as he did to it. This is because he was
braced badly for the impact.
-*-*-*-
George Novodvorsky <g...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>This is what worries me. Consider both cases where it pretty much applies:
>
>1) The Amazing Brick grabs an adversary. Now he has 2 choices, squeeze or
>throw. Before, either did pretty much the same damage - now, he can throw
>the adversary into the ground, and do twice as much damage as he could by
>squeezing (presumably the adversary is not to be considered braced)? Or is
>this x2 already counted in to the STR damage from throwing an opponent - in
>which case, does the target of a throw only take 1/2 as much damage?
This is addressed in the section on _Throwing_, but I guess I
should make it more prominent. In short, if you Grab and Throw an active
opponent, your throw is not as effective as if you were throwing an object
like a javelin. From the section in my system:
>: The GM should also feel free to impose penalties to the VLF for
>: unbalanced/unwieldy thrown objects like buses, railings, etc.
>:
>: For a particular, throwing a concious, struggling character (as in
>: a Grab and Throw) is much more difficult. My ruling is that the grabber
>: can only throw with his _casual_ STR (i.e. half his STR score) if the
>: target is struggling. This results in the normal STR damage from the
>: collision unless the target makes his Breakfall roll, in which case the
>: damage is halved.
This should probably be put under the combat maneuvers section
under "Grab and Throw". Thanks.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>
>2) The same Amazing Brick is falling to Earth from orbit [...] So he makes
>the following argument to the GM: "Look, I have done flying Move-Thru's
>fairly often, for instance when I leap at a low-flying villain, or am
>thrown by the Spectacular Brick in a "fastball" combat maneuver. Therefore,
>I should be able to brace myself as I do when I am about to crash into any
>other object."
Well, you ask him if he has taken the Breakfall skill to represent
his expertise at this. If he hasn't - then I'd say that he's not so good
at doing the "fastball". If he has, then he rolls against it as usual per
the rules.
Nothing different about this than is currently in the rules.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>
>George, who still likes the system fragment he posted, because it was
>1) simpler
Well, that is somewhat unfair. The system I posted _does_ a lot
more than the one you described. If you took out everything except for
normal Move-Through's and Move-By's in my system, it would be about the
same complexity as the one you described.
-*-*-*-
>
>2) allowed for really fast Combat Movement
>(otherwise consider the hero who runs as fast as a car drives: he probably
>can't punch out the driver - it would cost too much!)
Hmmmm. The system fragment posted allows for *too* fast Combat
Movement, IMO - it is easy enough to get over 50" per phase. A SPD 6
speedster with 60pts of Running goes at 128"/phase. This seems a bit
intense for a combat move.
Also, it does not reduce the damage done by Move-Throughs. In
fact, the system increases the amount of damage per point of Movement
Power. 30pts of movement used to get +5d6 Move-Through damage, whereas
30pts of movement in the new system gets +6d6 Move-Through. One of the
reasons why I implemented the system was that I disliked the enormous
damage potential of Speedsters due to Move-Through.