Thief rpg...
Larris Magpie
remove the crossposting once the subject strays.>
ada...@ozemail.com.au (Marine) wrote:
>>Is there much difference between a thief-environ. rpg and playing a thief
>>campaign in d&d?
>
>errr, yes.
Heh. :)
That said, releasing a Thief expansion/sourcebook for an existing RPG system
would be beyond neat. Trouble is choosing the system. What would be
acceptable?
I have no familiarity with its mechanics (yet, as I researched this post I
noticed Stormworld Games had an introductory scenario posted in PDF format
on their site), but the Cutthroat RPG seems to be a reasonably popular one.
For impatient gamers it should be relatively easy to adapt the system to the
Thief setting.
http://www.stormworldgames.com/cutthroat/
Comments will be forthcoming if and when I get the time to run the intro
adventure.
IMO Looking Glass Studios has in the Thief line a strong license and an even
stronger setting. I know that several have run home-brew Thief adventures
already. Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
franchise? :)
--
Larris "If darkness is merely the absence of light,
Like evil, they say, is the absence of love;
Why is it, then, that the gloom of the night
Feels more tangible and opaque than rays from above?"
Peter Knutsen
Larris Magpie wrote:
>
> <crossposted to alt.games.thief-dark-project and rec.games.frp.misc - kindly
> remove the crossposting once the subject strays.>
>
> ada...@ozemail.com.au (Marine) wrote:
>
> >>Is there much difference between a thief-environ. rpg and playing a thief
> >>campaign in d&d?
> >
> >errr, yes.
>
> Heh. :)
>
> That said, releasing a Thief expansion/sourcebook for an existing RPG system
> would be beyond neat. Trouble is choosing the system. What would be
> acceptable?
I'd pick a system with a really good skill-use system, one that
gives lots of detail and variation. My own multiple-d10 based
FFRE mechanic would probably be good, if you graft on a decent
skill-learning system (the current version of FFRE is a system-
design kit like FUDGE, rather than an actual system).
You should consider what would take place in a Thief roleplaying
game. Intrusion and theft, certainly, but what about a few other
related activities such as assassinations and espionage? That
broadens the scope slightly without complicating things.
What about magic? It's clear that magic exists alongside with
steam engines in the Thief setting, and this means that some
players will want to play spellcasters instead of regular
thieves. Even if there is no spellcasting as such, if all magic
is done through enchanted items, some players will still want
to play item-enchanters. Other players will want to play
gadgeteers, people who build, repair and invent steam-driven
and muscle-powered devices of various types.
The introduction of gadgets won't be a big problem, but the
introduction of magic in a thief-centric game can cause havoc.
You have you make sure that magic can compete with mundane
skill, without being significantly weaker or stronger (the
Stealth skill should be as useful as the Soundless spell,
not more useful, nor less useful). Getting things balanced in
a broad-spectrum game (the average modern fantasy campaign)
is lots easier (because the players will engage in a wide range
of activities) than in a game with narrow focus (where 90% of
the game is about intrusions in guarded facilities). In narrow-
focus games, a minor imbalance (which would go unnoticed in
the broad-spectrum campaign) can quickly become very visible
and cause resent among the players who picked other options (for
instance the player of the skill-using thief can end up hating
the player of the magic-using thief because the laters character
can perform better).
Because the game is limited in scope, it's also important that
characters can still be very different from one another in
terms of abilities. Much the same way that magic is very
detailed in the Ars Magica RPG rules system so that half a dozen
players can create half a dozen magus characters that are all
very different from one another in terms of what stuff they can
do and how good they are at casting various kinds of spells.
Whatever RPG system rule set you choose, make sure it has a
good selection of attributes, a good number to aim for would
probably be 9 or 10. Do not, I repeat *not*, use the default AD&D
selection of attributes, as it is completely unsuitable for a
thief-focused game.
When it comes to the world, you should look up lots of steampunk
ressources. Read some fiction (the only SP I've read so far is
"The Difference Engine"), and check out some of the steampunk
RPG systems. Castle Falkenstein has lots of supplements, and
there is a GURPS Falkenstein on the way. There may also be a
generic GURPS Steampunk on the way, although I'm not sure about
this. Reading a lot will help you figure out the steampunk genre
and design a world to place the game in. (Remember that a role-
playing game must have a detailed and broad world background,
whereas a computergame can skimp on this because the player is
often severely limited in his ability to travel).
> I have no familiarity with its mechanics (yet, as I researched this post I
> noticed Stormworld Games had an introductory scenario posted in PDF format
> on their site), but the Cutthroat RPG seems to be a reasonably popular one.
> For impatient gamers it should be relatively easy to adapt the system to the
> Thief setting.
>
> http://www.stormworldgames.com/cutthroat/
>
> Comments will be forthcoming if and when I get the time to run the intro
> adventure.
What's the Cutthroat RPG like? How are the mechanics? How is
character creation?
> IMO Looking Glass Studios has in the Thief line a strong license and an even
> stronger setting. I know that several have run home-brew Thief adventures
> already. Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
> franchise? :)
I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
like a good idea.
> --
> Larris
--
Peter Knutsen
Ryan Franklin
Peter Knutsen <pe...@knutsen.dk> wrote:
>Larris Magpie wrote:
>> That said, releasing a Thief expansion/sourcebook for an existing RPG system
>> would be beyond neat. Trouble is choosing the system. What would be
>> acceptable?
>
>I'd pick a system with a really good skill-use system, one that
>gives lots of detail and variation. My own multiple-d10 based
>FFRE mechanic would probably be good, if you graft on a decent
>skill-learning system (the current version of FFRE is a system-
>design kit like FUDGE, rather than an actual system).
We ran our GURPS: Thief:The Dark Project game in GURPS, which worked out
well. Of course, we tarted it up a bit by adding the cards from West End
Games' old Masterbook system (also converted to GURPS) in on top of it.
>You should consider what would take place in a Thief roleplaying
>game. Intrusion and theft, certainly, but what about a few other
>related activities such as assassinations and espionage? That
>broadens the scope slightly without complicating things.
Or, expand it even further: the setting for Thief is very, very nice and
can fit any number of games, none of which actually have anything to do
with thieving. Our game had 3 characters. One was a fence/jewelry store
owner who did a little thieving on the side when times were lean. Of the
other two, one was a nightclub singer who dabbled in alchemy, and the
other was a lowlife journalist who printed his own 4-page scandal sheet on
a weekly basis. It worked wonderfully.
>The introduction of gadgets won't be a big problem, but the
>introduction of magic in a thief-centric game can cause havoc.
>You have you make sure that magic can compete with mundane
>skill, without being significantly weaker or stronger (the
>Stealth skill should be as useful as the Soundless spell,
>not more useful, nor less useful). Getting things balanced in
GURPS works out pretty well for this; once you rule out "killer" spells
like invisibility (give them "Blur" instead and let the negative modifiers
apply to guards who are looking for you in a dark place), and keep the
amount of fatigue available pretty low, and magic becomes a low-impact
issue in the game. (In other words, I agree--if you make magic
competitive without being overwhelming, it helps a great deal.)
>this. Reading a lot will help you figure out the steampunk genre
>and design a world to place the game in. (Remember that a role-
>playing game must have a detailed and broad world background,
>whereas a computergame can skimp on this because the player is
>often severely limited in his ability to travel).
In our game, I deliberately limited the ability to travel by making it
clear at the outset that much of the game was going to be set in the city,
and then made the plot something that was going to keep 'em in town. ;-)
One of the serious advantages of Thief:TDP as a setting is that the
computer game has a lot of vague references built into it, so it's a very
rich-sounding world that doesn't tie you down to all that much. I highly
recommend checking out www.thief-darkproject.com (and
www.thief2-metalage.com), as well as the forums at www.ttlg.com for some
other perspectives on the Thief world. One of them has a nifty little
file that collects all the information from all those little scrolls,
books, and conversations into a glossary of sorts.
>> IMO Looking Glass Studios has in the Thief line a strong license and an even
>> stronger setting. I know that several have run home-brew Thief adventures
>> already. Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
>> franchise? :)
>
>I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
>like a good idea.
I'd pull for GURPS. But then again, making it yourself is half the fun.
;-)
--
okay, so i'm a freak
ry...@cobweb.scarymonsters.net
Tarkuss
Peter Knutsen wrote in message <38C6A7CD...@knutsen.dk>...
>
>
>Larris Magpie wrote:
>>
>> <crossposted to alt.games.thief-dark-project and rec.games.frp.misc -
kindly
>> remove the crossposting once the subject strays.>
>>
>> ada...@ozemail.com.au (Marine) wrote:
>>
>> >>Is there much difference between a thief-environ. rpg and playing a
thief
>> >>campaign in d&d?
>> >
>> >errr, yes.
>>
>> Heh. :)
>>
system
>> would be beyond neat. Trouble is choosing the system. What would be
>> acceptable?
>
>I'd pick a system with a really good skill-use system, one that
>gives lots of detail and variation. My own multiple-d10 based
>FFRE mechanic would probably be good, if you graft on a decent
>skill-learning system (the current version of FFRE is a system-
>design kit like FUDGE, rather than an actual system).
>
>
>game. Intrusion and theft, certainly, but what about a few other
>related activities such as assassinations and espionage? That
>broadens the scope slightly without complicating things.
There's no reason that a game based on Thief would necessarily
revolve solely around thieving. The computer game does, because
the main character is a thief (hence the name). If Garret were a
fighter, a game could be set in the same world, but it would be very
different (i.e. Garret could fight the guards and WIN). If he were a
mage, it would be different still. Nonetheless, it would be the same
world.
I've not played the original Thief game, but I've been playing the demo
of the new Thief 2 game. For those of you who haven't played the
demo yet, the level in that has you sneaking through the city stealing
stuff and then breaking into this big tower to steal some plans.
When I was playing the level, once I finally got into the tower (which
has very different gameplay--the guards have more freedom of
movement, so you have to be sneakier and less aggressive) I
started thinking of a character in a story I wrote. This character
was definitely a mage (she dealt with almost every problem by
clever use of spells) but she was also a thief, in that she broke into
places and stole stuff. In the story, she was breaking into a big
tower in order to steal a device that had been built by the company
that owned the tower. I began to think, "What would Sira Shayli do
in the Mechanist tower" and I began to realize you could do a very
similar game, only call it "Mage" (or not, so as not to be sued by
White Wolf). I imagined kneeling beside a fireplace to draw fire
energy from it to charge up a fireball spell (spells in Sira's world
are usually elemental, and powered by some source of that
element). While there are some significant differences between
the two worlds (Thief's reminds me more of FF6 (FF3 in the US) while
Sira's is more akin to FF7's, as far as technology goes) they're
similar enough to be "compatible" as far as gameplay.
Going beyond the gameplay end, it's easy to imagine a general
RPG set in this type of setting (What should it be? Manapunk?)
You could have fighters to deal with the guards, thieves to do...
well...everything Garret did in the computer game, and mages to
offer support with a handy blur spell (or fireball if things get
really nasty). After all, Garret's character is rather strongly based
on the typical RPG thief. He can backstab, pick locks, climb, listen
at doors, pick pockets, hide in shadows, move silently and such.
All this said, I guess I'd prefer to see the Thief world (hammerites,
mechanists and so on) summed up in a nice worldbook but I don't
think that it needs a special system. Nor do I think that adventures
in this RPG need to be limited to just the sort of thing that Garret
did in the computer games.
Just my 2 stolen gold pieces,
Tarkuss!
Larris Magpie
>There's no reason that a game based on Thief would necessarily
>revolve solely around thieving. The computer game does, because
>the main character is a thief (hence the name). If Garret were a
>fighter, a game could be set in the same world, but it would be very
>different (i.e. Garret could fight the guards and WIN).
Or probably be a guard himself. Nobody wins that many fights consequently.
:)
> If he were a
>mage, it would be different still. Nonetheless, it would be the same
>world.
Absolutely; but I'd imagine the focus would still be on nightly activities.
Perhaps more brawny fellows could be handled like Ars Magica thugs.
>I've not played the original Thief game, but I've been playing the demo
>of the new Thief 2 game.
<snip>
>When I was playing the level, once I finally got into the tower (which
>has very different gameplay--the guards have more freedom of
>movement, so you have to be sneakier and less aggressive) I
>started thinking of a character in a story I wrote. This character
>was definitely a mage (she dealt with almost every problem by
>clever use of spells) but she was also a thief, in that she broke into
>places and stole stuff. In the story, she was breaking into a big
>tower in order to steal a device that had been built by the company
>that owned the tower.
Nobody claimed The Uninvited Guest was original in its plot... :)
>I began to think, "What would Sira Shayli do
>in the Mechanist tower" and I began to realize you could do a very
>similar game, only call it "Mage" (or not, so as not to be sued by
>White Wolf). I imagined kneeling beside a fireplace to draw fire
>energy from it to charge up a fireball spell (spells in Sira's world
>are usually elemental, and powered by some source of that
>element).
_Very_ interesting - the sorcery in the world of Thief is also elemental
based.
>While there are some significant differences between
>the two worlds (Thief's reminds me more of FF6 (FF3 in the US) while
>Sira's is more akin to FF7's, as far as technology goes)
Uhh...
>they're similar enough to be "compatible" as far as gameplay.
>
>Going beyond the gameplay end, it's easy to imagine a general
>RPG set in this type of setting (What should it be? Manapunk?)
>You could have fighters to deal with the guards, thieves to do...
>well...everything Garret did in the computer game, and mages to
>offer support with a handy blur spell (or fireball if things get
>really nasty).
Fireballs seem to be beyond the power level of the magic in Thief. It's a
relatively low-magic setting
>After all, Garret's character is rather strongly based
>on the typical RPG thief. He can backstab, pick locks, climb, listen
>at doors, pick pockets, hide in shadows, move silently and such.
Some of the designers apparently overloaded on D&D Rogue material (not
exclusively, of course). It did work out, it seems.
I strongly believe that steps should be taken to discourage standard Heroic
Company RP'ing in the Thief setting. It simply does not suit it.
Co-operation, sure, but one should be wary of FR cloning.
>All this said, I guess I'd prefer to see the Thief world (hammerites,
>mechanists and so on) summed up in a nice worldbook but I don't
>think that it needs a special system.
No, FUDGE would do nicely. I was kind of asking which existing systems would
be feasible.
>Nor do I think that adventures
>in this RPG need to be limited to just the sort of thing that Garret
>did in the computer games.
Of course not - but the feeling and atmosphere of the game is so nice that
attempts of recreating it can only be advantageous.
>Just my 2 stolen gold pieces,
Heh. :)
Larris Magpie
>We ran our GURPS: Thief:The Dark Project game in GURPS, which worked out
>well. Of course, we tarted it up a bit by adding the cards from West End
>Games' old Masterbook system (also converted to GURPS) in on top of it.
Which cards?
Curious minds want to know. :)
>>You should consider what would take place in a Thief roleplaying
>>game. Intrusion and theft, certainly, but what about a few other
>>related activities such as assassinations and espionage? That
>>broadens the scope slightly without complicating things.
>
>Or, expand it even further: the setting for Thief is very, very nice and
>can fit any number of games, none of which actually have anything to do
>with thieving.
Absolutely. When I wrote the Novice Keeper's Lexicon, I realized how full
and deep the setting was.
One could play a group of Hammerite zealots on a holy mission, for instance.
One could happen upon an abandoned Pagan settlement in the woods.
One could play lower (preferably self-made) nobility encountering all the
intrigues in existence.
One could play Keepers. _That_ would be fun.
Also, we have possible professions in burrick hunters, Department of Public
Works technicians, mycologists, tough-boys, painters, seamen, police, etc...
>Our game had 3 characters. One was a fence/jewelry store
>owner who did a little thieving on the side when times were lean. Of the
>other two, one was a nightclub singer who dabbled in alchemy, and the
>other was a lowlife journalist who printed his own 4-page scandal sheet on
>a weekly basis. It worked wonderfully.
Hmm... I think either you or your co-players might have mentioned this
before on the TTLG forums... :)
Cookies for the characters, in any case. Really creative while fitting the
setting perfectly.
>>The introduction of gadgets won't be a big problem, but the
>>introduction of magic in a thief-centric game can cause havoc.
>>You have you make sure that magic can compete with mundane
>>skill, without being significantly weaker or stronger (the
>>Stealth skill should be as useful as the Soundless spell,
>>not more useful, nor less useful). Getting things balanced in
>
>GURPS works out pretty well for this; once you rule out "killer" spells
>like invisibility (give them "Blur" instead and let the negative modifiers
>apply to guards who are looking for you in a dark place), and keep the
>amount of fatigue available pretty low, and magic becomes a low-impact
>issue in the game. (In other words, I agree--if you make magic
>competitive without being overwhelming, it helps a great deal.)
I'd say even Blur is a bit powerful. I would not have the player characters
access more juicy stuff than they would be meeting.
Choosing a magic system is a little tricky, though - the aggressive
spellcasters encountered in the game have like any other enemy unlimited
ammo (i.e. never fatiguing). How to reflect this on part of the players? I'm
really not sure...
Perhaps there must be a special material component present, which has a
limited window (two to three days) in which it can be useful? A bit wimpy as
restrictions go, but...
>In our game, I deliberately limited the ability to travel by making it
>clear at the outset that much of the game was going to be set in the city,
>and then made the plot something that was going to keep 'em in town. ;-)
There are scattered references to the world beyond The City, but like in
Thieves' World, the real action takes place on the urban stage. And that,
believe me, is _detailed._
>One of the serious advantages of Thief:TDP as a setting is that the
>computer game has a lot of vague references built into it, so it's a very
>rich-sounding world that doesn't tie you down to all that much. I highly
>recommend checking out www.thief-darkproject.com (and
>www.thief2-metalage.com), as well as the forums at www.ttlg.com for some
>other perspectives on the Thief world. One of them has a nifty little
>file that collects all the information from all those little scrolls,
>books, and conversations into a glossary of sorts.
I wrote that... Thanks. :)
I'm hoping to produce another one for Thief 2: The Metal Age.
>>> Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
>>> franchise? :)
>>
>>I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
>>like a good idea.
>
>I'd pull for GURPS. But then again, making it yourself is half the fun.
>;-)
Heh. No disputing that, but I'd sure like it for Thief to become a
mainstream P&P RPG world.
Larris Magpie
>> That said, releasing a Thief expansion/sourcebook for an existing RPG system
>> would be beyond neat. Trouble is choosing the system. What would be
>> acceptable?
>
>I'd pick a system with a really good skill-use system, one that
>gives lots of detail and variation.
I'm skeptical to _too_ much detail - running into the "but if he doesn't
have Camouflage, then he can't very well use the Hide in Shadows skill, can
he?" kinds of debates, you know.
>My own multiple-d10 based
>FFRE mechanic would probably be good, if you graft on a decent
>skill-learning system (the current version of FFRE is a system-
>design kit like FUDGE, rather than an actual system).
I thought of FUDGE, but...
>You should consider what would take place in a Thief roleplaying
>game. Intrusion and theft, certainly, but what about a few other
>related activities such as assassinations and espionage? That
>broadens the scope slightly without complicating things.
Absolutely.
>What about magic? It's clear that magic exists alongside with
>steam engines in the Thief setting, and this means that some
>players will want to play spellcasters instead of regular
>thieves.
Allowed. Severe restrictions apply, though, such as a requirement to be
member of the Mages' Guild and adhering to their rules, pretty restrained
selelction of magicks, etc.
>Even if there is no spellcasting as such, if all magic
>is done through enchanted items, some players will still want
>to play item-enchanters. Other players will want to play
>gadgeteers, people who build, repair and invent steam-driven
>and muscle-powered devices of various types.
But of course, Mechanists would be allowed, naturally. :)
>The introduction of gadgets won't be a big problem, but the
>introduction of magic in a thief-centric game can cause havoc.
>You have you make sure that magic can compete with mundane
>skill, without being significantly weaker or stronger (the
>Stealth skill should be as useful as the Soundless spell,
>not more useful, nor less useful).
Invisibility, too - I can't believe they included such a potion in Thief 2.
>Getting things balanced in
>a broad-spectrum game (the average modern fantasy campaign)
>is lots easier (because the players will engage in a wide range
>of activities) than in a game with narrow focus (where 90% of
>the game is about intrusions in guarded facilities). In narrow-
>focus games, a minor imbalance (which would go unnoticed in
>the broad-spectrum campaign) can quickly become very visible
>and cause resent among the players who picked other options (for
>instance the player of the skill-using thief can end up hating
>the player of the magic-using thief because the laters character
>can perform better).
Interesting point - the simple solution would be to add more variety, of
course. Politics, small citystate wars, spell research, tomb raiding...
Still, I have a hard time picturing the Thief RPG as a standard
broad-spectrum game. The darkness simply becomes it too well, to put it
simply. :)
>Because the game is limited in scope, it's also important that
>characters can still be very different from one another in
>terms of abilities. Much the same way that magic is very
>detailed in the Ars Magica RPG rules system so that half a dozen
>players can create half a dozen magus characters that are all
>very different from one another in terms of what stuff they can
>do and how good they are at casting various kinds of spells.
I think there is enough in the underworld professions to make characters
sufficiently different from each other.
>Whatever RPG system rule set you choose, make sure it has a
>good selection of attributes, a good number to aim for would
>probably be 9 or 10.
Skills would not be included?
>Do not, I repeat *not*, use the default AD&D
>selection of attributes, as it is completely unsuitable for a
>thief-focused game.
Agreed. Fiddling around with FUDGE earlier, I came up with something similar
to the Cutthroat selection.
>When it comes to the world, you should look up lots of steampunk
>ressources. Read some fiction (the only SP I've read so far is
>"The Difference Engine"), and check out some of the steampunk
>RPG systems.
Okay. I'm already a fan of Sterling and Gibson, but I never got around to
reading that one.
>Castle Falkenstein has lots of supplements, and
>there is a GURPS Falkenstein on the way. There may also be a
>generic GURPS Steampunk on the way, although I'm not sure about
>this. Reading a lot will help you figure out the steampunk genre
>and design a world to place the game in. (Remember that a role-
>playing game must have a detailed and broad world background,
>whereas a computergame can skimp on this because the player is
>often severely limited in his ability to travel).
Player travelling has little to do with campaign depth, actually - look to
Sanctuary in Thieves' World.
BTW, how were the mechanics of the Mayfair TW game? Anybody?
>> I have no familiarity with its mechanics (yet, as I researched this post I
>> noticed Stormworld Games had an introductory scenario posted in PDF format
>> on their site), but the Cutthroat RPG seems to be a reasonably popular one.
>> For impatient gamers it should be relatively easy to adapt the system to the
>> Thief setting.
>>
>> http://www.stormworldgames.com/cutthroat/
>>
>> Comments will be forthcoming if and when I get the time to run the intro
>> adventure.
>
>What's the Cutthroat RPG like? How are the mechanics? How is
>character creation?
I still have not run it, but it's more like a Lankhmar/Sanctuary/The City
city setting (Skaev's the name) with a slap-on D&D spawn set of rules,
adjusted for rogue-type characters (fighters and mages included), but it
_is_ classless. And wounds instead of hit points. Nice. I don't know if the
skill resolution system involves opposing skills, AFAICT it does not.
Attributes in the most recent version include Might, Agility, Dexterity,
Perception, Charisma, and Guile. I think I find the mechanics a little less
than intuitive, too.
I have no real informatoin on how the characters are created; but I'd figure
it's by point allocation, judging from the sample pre-gen characters.
>> IMO Looking Glass Studios has in the Thief line a strong license and an even
>> stronger setting. I know that several have run home-brew Thief adventures
>> already. Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
>> franchise? :)
>
>I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
>like a good idea.
EvilSpirit has most likely already thought of it. :)
Tim J Stellmach
shipping Thief II, I'm playing catch-up.
In article <38e0aae0...@90.0.0.1>, Larris Magpie <lar...@usa.net> wrote:
>ry...@cobweb.scarymonsters.net (Ryan Franklin) wrote:
>One could play a group of Hammerite zealots on a holy mission, for instance.
>One could happen upon an abandoned Pagan settlement in the woods.
>One could play lower (preferably self-made) nobility encountering all the
>intrigues in existence.
>One could play Keepers. _That_ would be fun.
>Also, we have possible professions in burrick hunters, Department of Public
>Works technicians, mycologists, tough-boys, painters, seamen, police, etc...
Not to mention the Pagans themselves, who will figure a little more
prominently in Thief II. Between the Pagan/Hammer conflict, the internal
schism of the Hammers and Mechanists, the schemes of the new Sherrif's
office, the various competing nobles, etc. (and of course the Keepers)
there's loads of room for intrigue even outside of the thieving model.
Some of this might even be explored in future Looking Glass games; we're
leaving ourselves plenty of room.
>Choosing a magic system is a little tricky, though - the aggressive
>spellcasters encountered in the game have like any other enemy unlimited
>ammo (i.e. never fatiguing). How to reflect this on part of the players? I'm
>really not sure...
Well, in GURPS (the system the previous poster used) you get it automatically
with high skill in the spell. That's within the reach of player-characters,
but you don't get it automatically, which is at least a fair stab at
balancing it.
>>>> Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
>>>> franchise? :)
>>>
>>>I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
>>>like a good idea.
Wasn't checking my outside e-mail while we were working on our Thief II
deadline. But, message received. Personally, I'd like to see it happen,
not that that alone gets such a deal done (and Looking Glass Studios being
in between marketing directors right now puts a damper on licensing).
Certainly depends on how well Thief 2 does; so far the only such deals
I know of are for blockbuster titles like Myth and Diablo.
>>I'd pull for GURPS. But then again, making it yourself is half the fun.
>>;-)
>
>Heh. No disputing that, but I'd sure like it for Thief to become a
>mainstream P&P RPG world.
Well, as anyone who's followed my posts on the Web knows, I'm a GURPS
man myself. Certainly cross-licensing with an existing system seems like
the way to go, as a business model.
Tim Stellmach
Senior Designer, Lead Designer,
Looking Glass Studios Thief, Thief II
Larris Magpie
>Okay, the topic is a little stale now, but having just been freed up from
>shipping Thief II, I'm playing catch-up.
ES, that's some seriously good news. Take a good holiday now. :)
>>One could play a group of Hammerite zealots on a holy mission, for instance.
>>One could happen upon an abandoned Pagan settlement in the woods.
>>One could play lower (preferably self-made) nobility encountering all the
>>intrigues in existence.
>>One could play Keepers. _That_ would be fun.
>>Also, we have possible professions in burrick hunters, Department of Public
>>Works technicians, mycologists, tough-boys, painters, seamen, police, etc...
>
>Not to mention the Pagans themselves, who will figure a little more
>prominently in Thief II.
Alright! That's probably why I didn't include them - I always wondered what
those items on Constantine's mantelpiece really were, but the Hammers got
far and away the larger end of the stick in Thief:TDP as far as attention
and background goes.
> Between the Pagan/Hammer conflict, the internal
>schism of the Hammers and Mechanists, the schemes of the new Sherrif's
>office, the various competing nobles, etc. (and of course the Keepers)
>there's loads of room for intrigue even outside of the thieving model.
Absolutely, but it would be nice to be able to keep the overall feel of
cloak and dagger which is really what made the game popular, objectively
speaking. Comparisons with Mayfair Games and Robert Lynn Asprin's Thieves'
World are probably inevitable at this stage - Sanctuary is one mean city,
but actual thieving is downplayed in the short stories. I have never taken a
close look at the RPG rules, but wouldn't they be reflecting this fact?
>Some of this might even be explored in future Looking Glass games; we're
>leaving ourselves plenty of room.
Now that's an interesting possibility indeed. As we have pointed out, the
setting is certainly rich enough to allow for it.
>>Choosing a magic system is a little tricky, though - the aggressive
>>spellcasters encountered in the game have like any other enemy unlimited
>>ammo (i.e. never fatiguing). How to reflect this on part of the players? I'm
>>really not sure...
>
>Well, in GURPS (the system the previous poster used) you get it automatically
>with high skill in the spell. That's within the reach of player-characters,
>but you don't get it automatically, which is at least a fair stab at
>balancing it.
Sounds good. I have very limited experience with GURPS, unfortunately, and
none at all with GURPS Magic, but it certainly sounds like it could fit the
bill.
>>>>> Any preferences as to which system/company should gain the Thief
>>>>> franchise? :)
>>>>
>>>>I dunno, but I'll try e-mailing Tim Stellmarch, because it sounds
>>>>like a good idea.
>
>Wasn't checking my outside e-mail while we were working on our Thief II
>deadline.
Again, good to see you out of crunch mode! And I'm _not_ saying that only
because I know it won't belong until I can play the game... :)
>But, message received. Personally, I'd like to see it happen,
>not that that alone gets such a deal done (and Looking Glass Studios being
>in between marketing directors right now puts a damper on licensing).
That's unfortunate, but won't Eidos have any say about it? And might we take
this as a possible job opening? :)
IMO the market should be swamped with Thief licensed merchandise (all but
barring real elemental crystals, but including latex burrick masks), just
like any big title movie. Soundtrack releases, TV ads, tee-shirts and caps,
the works. And, of course the Official Thief RPG(tm).
Who would have to take the first step in any case? The property owners (LGS)
or possible licensees? Certainly the industry has seen examples of both in
the past.
(perhaps we'd better move this over to rgf.industry... :)
And how much would LGS be dedicating of its resources to ensure the
appropriate direction and QA of such products? How does Blizzard handle
these matters?
>Certainly depends on how well Thief 2 does; so far the only such deals
>I know of are for blockbuster titles like Myth and Diablo.
Starcraft, too.
The point being that even without record sales it would be a very viable
world for exploration. It might mean having to let the license go for less
(I don't really know who paid who in the case of Blizzard and Wizards), but
in the end it would really help promoting your products IMO.
>>>I'd pull for GURPS. But then again, making it yourself is half the fun.
>>>;-)
>>
>>Heh. No disputing that, but I'd sure like it for Thief to become a
>>mainstream P&P RPG world.
>
>Well, as anyone who's followed my posts on the Web knows, I'm a GURPS
>man myself. Certainly cross-licensing with an existing system seems like
>the way to go, as a business model.
But would it not risk drowning in the myriads of existing GURPS settings?
Would enough resources be dedicated to it on a steady basis by SJG, for
instance? Not that I necessarily see other options; at the moment the former
plethora of game manufacturers seem to be shrinking dramatically...
Tim J Stellmach
>stel...@world.std.com (Tim J Stellmach) wrote:
>That's unfortunate, but won't Eidos have any say about it?
Not especially. They publish Thief and Thief II, and we have contracts
with them for certain future commitments. And of course, I expect
any licensing deal would be discussed with Eidos and coordinated with
their publicity plans. But it's Looking Glass that holds the intellectual
property rights to Thief.
>Who would have to take the first step in any case? The property owners (LGS)
>or possible licensees? Certainly the industry has seen examples of both in
>the past.
I'm sure it could go either way.
>And how much would LGS be dedicating of its resources to ensure the
>appropriate direction and QA of such products? How does Blizzard handle
>these matters?
Now, that's a good question. It does seem like we'd have to grow our staff
to adequately deal with _any_ major licensing of Thief, which means being
pretty convinced of the viability of the new venture. It would be very
interesting to see how Blizzard (and Bungee) handle their RPG deals.
>>Well, as anyone who's followed my posts on the Web knows, I'm a GURPS
>>man myself. Certainly cross-licensing with an existing system seems like
>>the way to go, as a business model.
>
>But would it not risk drowning in the myriads of existing GURPS settings?
How did GURPS Myth do? I really don't know.
And on the other hand, it seems like whatever you do, you risk drowning in
the myriads of RPG titles out there. Having an estabished brand name in
the RPG market seems like it would probably help more than hurt. Currently,
in terms of games that would provide much support for Thief, that's GURPS
and D&D (I wouldn't want to do it in 2nd edition, but 3rd is good, not
to ignite that old flame war again or anything).
Also, currently GURPS doesn't have a decent sourcebook for thieving
campaigns (the closest things would be the impending GURPS Rogues character
template book and maybe GURPS Goblins), and it seems to me like they could
use one. But maybe it just seems to me like they could use one because
I'm getting set to run a thieving RPG in GURPS and I'm feeling the lack
personally. 8-)
Larris Magpie
>>Who would have to take the first step in any case? The property owners (LGS)
>>or possible licensees? Certainly the industry has seen examples of both in
>>the past.
>
>I'm sure it could go either way.
Here's to hoping!
:)
You probably already know you have my support, but I'm not adverse to
voicing it again! If you see an opportunity, grab it!
>>And how much would LGS be dedicating of its resources to ensure the
>>appropriate direction and QA of such products? How does Blizzard handle
>>these matters?
>
>Now, that's a good question. It does seem like we'd have to grow our staff
>to adequately deal with _any_ major licensing of Thief, which means being
>pretty convinced of the viability of the new venture.
Well, first of all you obviously need to fill that marketing director chair
ASAP. I mean, now's the time you need one.
>It would be very
>interesting to see how Blizzard (and Bungee) handle their RPG deals.
Absolutely. RPG licensing has met with mixed success in the past, to put it
mercifully, probably owing to a multitude of factors. But in any case,
Wizards/TSR seem to have traditionally put their own people over those of
the licensors when designing and developing products tied to existing lines.
I'll be reading the credits of those cross-licensed games closely.
>And on the other hand, it seems like whatever you do, you risk drowning in
>the myriads of RPG titles out there. Having an estabished brand name in
>the RPG market seems like it would probably help more than hurt.
Thief is an established brand name by now, isn't it? :) Looks to me like it
is...
>Currently,
>in terms of games that would provide much support for Thief, that's GURPS
>and D&D (I wouldn't want to do it in 2nd edition, but 3rd is good, not
>to ignite that old flame war again or anything).
I agree. Provided the D20 STL opens for Perception ability scores, that
should be a definite possibility. IMO certain classes would have to be
heavily tilted against in terms of balance, of course, contributing to
reduce the magic level in favor of technology.
I'm currently picking and choosing rules to run a Thief game under FUDGE and
so I perused some of the systems used in GURPS, the magic system in
particular. I would however remove about half of the colleges outright.
Downpowered versions of Necromancy, Healing, Meta-Spells, Light&Darkness,
Plant, Animal, Enchantment, and the Elemental schools would be kept. No
Transport, Mind/Body Control, Knowledge, Communication/Empathy...
Too, I'd adapt an approach similar to the Dragonlance: Fifth Age magic where
there are two different kinds of magic affecting living things and nonliving
things respectively; except "living things" would in the Thief game be
restricted to "humans" to allow for the traditional Pagan bonds to nature
worship. Necromancy would be kind of a renegade twist incorporating both
types, judging from information in The Unwelcome Guest (the Thief 2 demo).
Also, I'm looking for a good way to simulate the act/react system of AIs
(clearly, Perception is a key ability, likewise keeping track of Alertness
variations could be integral). Opposed actions don't exactly cut it IMO. I
have also not decided exactly how to incorporate the one shot-one kill (or
one blackjacked-one downed) feature against unsuspecting targets yet, but I
have some ideas.
My game looks to become a lot more lethal in that arrows will do
significantly more damage even against wary opponents (including of course
player characters) than was the case in the game. I might reduce the hit
probability to balance, though.
(oh, maybe this should be in rgf.design instead. :)
>Also, currently GURPS doesn't have a decent sourcebook for thieving
>campaigns (the closest things would be the impending GURPS Rogues character
>template book and maybe GURPS Goblins), and it seems to me like they could
>use one.
Good point. In this case, the Thief license would definitely be it.
>But maybe it just seems to me like they could use one because
>I'm getting set to run a thieving RPG in GURPS and I'm feeling the lack
>personally. 8-)
Could be. :)
It's primarily a matter of taste, as always. In this case I definitely like
the classless approach best myself, as the standard classes seem to preclude
(or at least downplay) the role-playing opportunities of other occupations,
but I see how it would by most accounts be possible to implement Thief
conventions in the (finished) D&D 3E/D20 game system.
Larris Magpie
>My game looks to become a lot more lethal in that arrows will do
>significantly more damage even against wary opponents (including of course
>player characters) than was the case in the game. I might reduce the hit
>probability to balance, though.
I neglected to mention that I despite this intend to keep the game as much
in "Expert" mode as possible. Killing of humans should be viewed as
something to avoid, aiming for more finesse in the gameplay instead. I'm
just not sure how to achieve this, though - withholding experience (which
can be heavy-handed)? Making results of actions come around to haunt the
perpetrator (which is desirable but not always viable)?
Hm?