Color or BW RPG?
Kevin Mowery
NMEGames (NMEG...@aol.com) wrote:
: Currently NME is working on our scifi game based on Tracy Hickman's
: STARSHIELD hardcover novel. We are developing the online and RPG game at
: this time (in many ways the RPG and online game will be linked to each
: other) The online game is in beta format and can be seen at
: www.starshield.com.
: As for the RPG Id like to address some questions to you gamers out there.
[Whole lot of snipping]
Personally, I'm not turned off by color *or* B&W. Color is nice,
and if that's what everyone involved with the game wants to make, then go
for it. I'm used to paying about $25 for a game of either type anymore,
with the occasional trip upward in price (for Feng Shui & Delta Green,
both of which were worth the extra $$). Just whichever format you use,
use it wisely.
As to the boxed set vs. multiple hardcover books: go with the boxed
set. For one thing, I haven't seen too many boxed RPGs being produced,
and I kinda miss 'em (I really miss getting dice with my RPGs (hint,
hint)). Besides, buying two hardcover books to get the whole system is a
little much. Even if they were two rather thin color hardcovers, I think
you'd probably want to charge around $20 per book, and $40 is too much for
a single RPG. Actually $25-27 is about what I expect to pay for any RPG.
If it's something I'm *really* impressed by, I'll go up to $30.
Keep costs in mind.
--
Kevin "Professor Bobo" Mowery_______...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
"HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which
are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Scott R Pyle
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, NMEGames wrote:
> Currently NME is working on our scifi game based on Tracy Hickman's
> STARSHIELD hardcover novel. We are developing the online and RPG game at
> this time (in many ways the RPG and online game will be linked to each
> other) The online game is in beta format and can be seen at
> www.starshield.com.
> As for the RPG Id like to address some questions to you gamers out there.
I haven't read it. Any background anyone?
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
> request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
> Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
> the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
> color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
> to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
> design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
> attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
> book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
> extent) as you can color.
Just an asside, I thought the Battlelords CCG looked great. One of
the best I saw during the years of madness. I don't mind b&w at all,
especially if the art is solid and well-placed. A good idea might be to
ape what FASA and other shave done successfully, mixing b&w with several
sections of color plates.
> BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
> consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
> price as some of the color games out there.
Yeah, I was pretty distressed when the b&w 2nd printing of Feng
Shui came out and it was the same price as the full color 1st print, but
the binding actually looked like it might last a year or two. ;-)
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
> information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
> neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
> adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
> book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
>
> George Vasilakos
> Art Director NME
> NEW MILLENNIUM ENTERTAINEMNT
> NMEG...@aol.com
I like the idea of quality hardcovers (this implies a hardcover
with a solid binding which will endure heavy use). I point to the FASA's
Shadowrun Second Edition hardcover as an example. I've had it for 5 years
and it has held together wonderfully. I don't generally like starting
boxed sets. A single rulesbook with as much info you can pack into it
would better suit me.
>>>>Hey, thanks for asking!
Scott R. Pyle
Assistant Cataloging Librarian
Youngstown State University
srp...@cc.ysu.edu
NMEGames
Currently NME is working on our scifi game based on Tracy Hickman's
STARSHIELD hardcover novel. We are developing the online and RPG game at
this time (in many ways the RPG and online game will be linked to each
other) The online game is in beta format and can be seen at
www.starshield.com.
As for the RPG Id like to address some questions to you gamers out there.
We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
extent) as you can color.
BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
price as some of the color games out there.
Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
George Vasilakos
Art Director NME
--
NEW MILLENNIUM ENTERTAINEMNT
NMEG...@aol.com
Customer Service (518) 459-3724
http://www.wizvax.net/nmegames/conspiracyx/X.html
Geoffrey C. Grabowski
In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
NMEGames <NMEG...@aol.com> wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
>color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
>to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
>design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
>attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
>book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
>extent) as you can color.
I personally would prefer a b&w book. Color almost invaribly means
glossy, and glossy books disintegrate becuase the glue won't stick to the
pages. Low or no-gloss color might be okay, as long as it was affordable,
but I'd be just as happy with good-quality b&w art, well-presented, and
with a coherent theme and style. If this is one of those things the author
is making a precondition (I wish I could do that) then I suppose you may
have no choice to submit, but for the purposes of durability and
affordability, I'd go B&W.
I'm not sure why everyone in gaming has gotten obssesed with color
recently. The fans don't seem to be demanding it, its more affordable and
durable, and the paper isn't glossy, which means you can mark it with
standard pens without the marks smudging, and with pencil, and the writing
is readable. Not everyone marks their game books, but those of us who do
for whatever reason will love you to know end if you make our lives
easier. Certainly, looking at Delta Green and Spherewalker as opposed to
In Nomine, Birthright and Feng Shui, I personally don't have great things
to say about color. I'd rather that the money be spent to hire good
artists than artists who work in color.
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
>information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
>neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
>adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
>book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
I persoanlly would rahter have hardback books, if I must, though
publishing a softback for those of us who work in gaming and don't have
the money to buy hardbacks would be nice. Boxed sets can't be paged
through at the store, and if there's _anything_ I can look through at the
store that interests me at all, I'm going to buy it long before before I
buy a boxed set.
It's really good to see a gaming firm asking around about what
people are interested in, rather than acting in a vacuume and then looking
surprised when people don't appreciate the product. I'm afraid you may get
more flammage than information out of this thread, and should take the
opinions expressed with a grain of salt, but I'm glad to see someone doing
an informal appraisal of the market. Good luck on your project.
>George Vasilakos
>Art Director NME
G.
--
---Geoffrey C. Grabowski|rai...@io.com|Freelance JOAT-A|Swing Heil!---
[O] "We're cutting through Little Saigon when a police chopper spots us.
[O] Marv holds a clinic on evasive driving and casual property damage"
[O] -Frank Miller, _A Dame To Kill For_
Jeff Grubb
In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
>
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
> request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
> Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
> the game is in BW or color?
I think gamers respond well to a concise, clear pages, high text density
without clutter, and easy-to-read serif font (you didn't ask, but what the
hey). Examples of this done well in color are Feng Shui and In Nomine,
neither of which overpowers with their colors. An excellent example of
interior layout in black and white is Delta Green. Pack some copies off to
Trace and see what he says.
Jeff G.
--
Max! Press the Button!
- Prof. Fate
Bryan Gardner
In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
>
>
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
> the game is in BW or color?
>
The question of black & white or color doesn't matter as much as the
question 'Will this book fall apart in 6 weeks?'. Obviously the most
important thing is the mechanics of the game. Aside from that I want a
game that I'm not going to have to take to Kinko's and have rebound
(though I've done that with a few). If the game is good I'll spend
$20.00 to $30.00 (or more in some cases) for a well bound game with
artwork that looks like my 4 year old neice drew alot more readily than
for a game with great art that'll fall apart in a few weeks or readings.
As for boxed sets, well unless it is a new release of a game with which
I'm already familiar or a supplement thereof, I'm not likely to spend
that kind of cash on an unknown. Daddy always told me not to buy a pig
in a poke!!
I want to add that I'm glad you are seeking gamers input in some
fashion. Having been gaming for 18 years (good lord I'm OLD!!) I'm well
used to gaming companies treating idiots or slaves. Example T$R!.
T$R is an unapproved variation on TSR. All references to TSR are
unapproved and used without permission. TSR is a trademark of the TSR
inc., Satan and all the demons in hell.
I like AD&D, just not it's owners.
AD&D is a trademark of TSR Inc. Used without permission.
<grin>
Bryan
Karen J. Cravens
In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
* Only do color if you can do it right. If you do color poorly, or
skimp in other areas (esp. binding) to do color well, even if you
succeed in getting the initial sale you'll sour the customer on
future sales: "I paid *extra* for *this*?"
* Good color printing doesn't help if the art is poor to begin
with.
* Well-used spot color can be as (or more) effective as full
(process) color.
* Good design is as important as good art.
(Speaking here from no experience in the game industry except as
a customer, but a moderate amount of experience in the
publishing industry from the printer's end of things.)
-- Karen Cravens | Phoenyx PBeM RPG Listserver: majo...@phoenyx.net
sil...@phoenyx.net | http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/
| Home of the RPG Industry Discussion List
Digital circuits are made with analog parts.
Robin D. Laws
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price.
My advice is to price it about 25% higher than what you think is
"affordable", whether you print it in color or B&W. RPGs
are specialty-market products, and should be priced as such.
Look at Games Workshop, which is unabashed about its high margins,
and highly successful, vs. almost any RPG company you care to name,
which is struggling and scraping to survive. Price your book
so that you do more than break even plus a little bit; make a
decent enough profit to grow your company. The sales you'll
lose from a high price point will be more than offset by
increased margin from those who do buy.
Take care >>> Robin
Jose Garcia
I second this motion. I don't know why gaming products are priced
so low other than game manufacturers fear that they'll be branded as
gougers if they charge more than the guy next to them. And oddly enough
the cost of gaming products have not kept up with the price of inflation
even though rpg art budgets have been steadily increasing.
Quality is a much more important factor in determining the customers
buying decision than price in this marketplace. If gamer X really likes
product the pricey A and is lukewarm on the inexpensive product B he or
she will purchase product A over product B almost every time.
Now there are some people who are most cost concious than others. If
this marketplace were larger then I'm sure that there would be a market
niche for inexpensive rpgs, but it isn't so its not really worth doing.
I'm actualy thinking of going in the other direction: a 320+ page
hardcover rpg with saddlestitch binding. This would be a "one book
wonder" (an exhaustive background and a mini campaign enclosed and
possibly no supplements) with a binding that should last forever. Doing
a small print run and charging 39.95 for it.
Dave Weinstein
Hardback.
Color, black and white, it doesn't matter.
But I want it in hardback, and I want it to be durable, and well written.
For reference, I just ordered Ars Magica 4th Edition hardback from my new
local retailer; the price point of $45 seems perfectly reasonable considering
the costs of related hobbies (cardgames, computer/console games, board or
miniature games).
--Dave
--
Dave Weinstein olo...@sff.net
Kesmai Studios olo...@kesmai.com
http://www.kesmai.com http://www.sff.net/people/olorin
Disclaimo, Disclaimas, Disclaimat
Pardoz
In <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>, NMEGames
<NMEG...@aol.com> wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>the game is in BW or color?
Only to the extent that the B&W vs. colour decision affects the
price; I'd much rather see a $25 B&W game than a $30 colour game (ditto
supplements). On the whole, I'd rather see B&W or B&W with a few
colour plates (see, frexample Call of Cthulhu 4th edition) than a
full-colour game, both because it's likely to be less expensive and
because it's likely to be more readable (see, frexample, 1st ed. Feng
Shui as a game that suffers because of its graphic overpresentation -
sections are damn near unreadable).
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
>information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
>neat?
I'd say avoid a box set like the plague unless you really need to
include a bunch of fiddly components (as, say, Torg or Everway did).
One way to go might be to do what Atlas did with Over The Edge - produce the
core rulebook, which has all the rules, GM-level background, etc. and a
cheaper Player's Guide with character generation, a basic rules
overview, and some background material. (No idea how well this worked
for Atlas financially, but it went over well with all the OTE players I
know).
--
RIOT, n. A popular entertainment given to the military by innocent
bystanders. (A. Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)
http://www.io.com/~pardoz (Liaden Universe mailing list home page)
http://www.io.com/~pardoz/mythos.html (Mythos Adventure Archive)
Allan Goodall
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:11:04 -0400, NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>the game is in BW or color?
Actually, I prefer Black and White. Okay, in all honesty if you could
create the book in colour for the same price as BW, I'd prefer the colour.
However, the simple fact is that you can't. Right now, I feel that there
are enough good RPGs on the market that I'm feeling kind of price
conscious. Also, a colour version will make reprints much more expensive.
What happens if a year and a half later you've sold out your first print
run but you don't think the demand is enough for a full second print run?
Colour becomes that much more expensive for the second run since the
volumes are probably lower.
Personally, I find that the art in RPGs--while sometimes evoking a
mood--usually just splits up paragraphs and fills white space. The fact
that there is something THERE is more important than the actual image. In
other words, after the first go through, the art doesn't have any effect on
the game. At that point, I resent paying the extra cost just to have some
colour plates that I never look at. And very little RPG art deserves
colour. I wouldn't hang most RPG art up on my wall, colour or BW.
In the last year, I turned down GURPS Goblins, In Nomine, and Harnmaster
2nd Edition because of a perceived lack of value. This lack of value stems
from what I saw as too high a cost for gratuitous colour. I suspect that
this same problem was partly the reason that GDW's _Space: 1889_ never
caught on (though the game system also played a big part in that...).
> BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
>consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
>price as some of the color games out there.
Which means that the company is making a better profit margin. I see this
as a healthy thing for the RPG industry as a whole. If a company is more
profitable, it's more likely to produce supporting products and stick
around for a while. It's a perception thing. I KNOW I've put down C$35
books with a lot of glossy colour pages with the thought that it could have
been done cheaper in BW. On the other hand, I bought _Delta Green_ for
about C$35 and it's totally BW; I don't feel ripped off by _Delta Green_.
It's a perception thing...
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
>information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
>neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
>adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
>book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
I'm not crazy about boxed sets. A book I can flip through at the store and
check out the mechanics. If I like what I see, I'll buy it. A boxed set
I'm more likely to pass on or wait for a couple of glowing reviews. I
haven't bought a boxed RPG in about 6 years.
Allan Goodall agoo...@sympatico.ca
We come into the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That's the way that Lady Luck dances
Roll the bones - N. Peart
Warren Grant
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:11:04 -0400, NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
>color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
>to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
>design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
>attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
>book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
>extent) as you can color.
I would personally vote for B&W illos throughout, with perhaps a color
glossy page or two in the centre if you feel it necessary. Non-glossy
pages seem to survive better, that is the bindings are stronger than
with glossy paper.
Personally, while I appreciate the artwork and the effort that goes
into it, I buy an RPG book for its contents, not its artwork. The art
adds flash and a graphic representation of some concepts, but since I
don't use it when actually playing the game, I don't really need it.
I would suggest you might print B&W images, and use the money that is
saved by this to hire really good artists to produce the best B&W art
you can manage.
> BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
>consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
>price as some of the color games out there.
I feel that cheaper pricewise is preferable, but not at the expense of
quality and durability. Hard cover books, with quality bindings are
the way to lean IMHO. Nothing worse than buying a great book and
during the course of playing it to death, having to take out the hole
punch and transfer it to a binder because the whole thing fell apart.
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
>information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
>neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
>adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
>book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
I would NOT opt for a boxed set. Perhaps after the game is well known
and has a following you might try this, but I think the preferable
method would be to publish each item separately. Perhaps even offer
the maps as a separate item for sale? Some players buy other systems
just for reference and a good set of maps might be quite desirable to
someone who intends to use it in a different campaign/rpg. Additional
sales for any reason cannot hurt I am sure? -:>
Amongst other things (and I don't think I am alone here) I will never
buy and RPG book that I have not first opened, scanned briefly and
then probably been drawn back to on another occaision. It is always
the internal details that attract me, clever mechanics, storyline,
artwork whatever. I have never made an impulse purchase of an RPG
related product (well, not entirely true, I did purchase Pendragon
that way - and while I think it is a clever system I have never played
it. Its just not my kind of game. This means I didn't buy any
supplements either). Before someone is going to cough up $40 for a
book (I am up here in Canada and the prices are rather high), I think
they will want to read some of its contents.
Hard Cover, with the highest quality binding/paper you can get, High
Quality B&W art inside, with a color cover (and perhaps some color
splash pages in the centre) and the lowest price you can comfortably
charge without going out of business, that's my opinion. If the game
itself is good then I think you will do much better with this
approach.
JR Holmes
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
|> Currently NME is working on our scifi game based on Tracy Hickman's
|>STARSHIELD hardcover novel. We are developing the online and RPG game at
|>this time (in many ways the RPG and online game will be linked to each
|>other) The online game is in beta format and can be seen at
|>www.starshield.com.
|>As for the RPG Id like to address some questions to you gamers out there.
|>
|> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
|>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
|>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
|>the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
|>color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
|>to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
|>design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
|>attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
|>book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
|>extent) as you can color.
You have an extraordinary opportunity to listen in on a debate
about exactly this issue in the thread regarding the very
recently issued RPG, The Babylon Project.
In the way of background, after many delays, this much
anticipated game has finally been released, and some of the
earliest buyers have found a problem with the full color pages
being easily smudged. Others have reported no smudging problems
whatsoever despite even some deliberate attempts to do so.
My personal suspicion is that this might be related to the game
being shipped directly from the printer to the distributors,
which might have contributed to some of the latest printed
volumes in the print run arriving with incompletely dried ink.
Other buyers, receiving copies from earlier in the print run
might have no problem in this regard.
In the course of this typically Usenet round of griping, several
people have also been debating the quality of the included art,
and whether a full color interior was necessary at all. Most of
the statements thus far might be summed up with "If the ink
wouldn't run and the illustrations were uniformly excellent, I
would have been happy with a full color rule book."
Personally, I would be happy with compromise of a color inset for
the portion of the rules that would be most valuable being
illustrated and appearing in color. The remainder can be B/W
without any concern for my purchase decision. I would hope that
it is the quality of the _rules_ and _setting_ that will make me
want the game, not merely the illustrations. If it winds up
being merely a picture book with some poorly crafted rules
grafted on, you will not find me one of the buyers.
--
JR Holmes
Justin Thiesen
jgr...@pensys.com (Jeff Grubb) writes:
>In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
>NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
>>
>> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>> request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>> Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>> the game is in BW or color?
>
Unless the color illustrations are going to make the book that much better,
stick to B&W. If you want, put in some color plates especially com-
missioned to impress the gamer, well done, and with a close relationship
to the game. This may sound obvious, but it's surprising how often
illustrations connect in no tangible way to the game genre or world.
So if you use a few color pages, make sure that they're of such quality
that the buyer will return to them, and that they will remind him or her
of what makes the game unique, of particular features of the game world
that you hope he or she will be fascinated with. It's cliched, but true,
that dragons in the original D&D held such a fascination for many people.
(trust me, I knew them) They would turn again and again to the pictures
of such in the books, even when the pictures were only of mediocre quality.
But (if you take this approach) what you pick for the color plates doesn't
necessarily have to be random creatures or people. You could use them
to depict the grand creation myth of the game world, or some important
historical event that set a particular person/nation on the path leading
to the world of the player's time. (The Magna Carta in England). They
could depict environments unique to the game world, or the greatest
city in the chief nation of the world. They could display hints of all
the glorious variety available for players and GM's to explore: vast
mysterious forests, strange deserts, dank swamps, teemings cities,
quiest villages, deep caves, deadly dungeons, wide oceans...whatever.
You can depict fictive player characters exploring the world, or simply
the world itself. The illustrations can be subtle or dramatic, intri-
cate or simple. (Whoops, my brain's gone....The game is SF, isn't it?
well, the same advice still pretty much applies.)
Whatever you choose to do, whether to print the book entirely in B&W,
in B&W with some color plates, or in full color, a few words of advice:
1) Don't put in bad artwork. Even if it means using fewer pieces and
just having more plain text, keep the artwork of a uniform high
quality. Bad artwork isn't worth the ink. At best it gets ignored,
at worst it may turn off potential buyers before they read
enough of the game to give it a chance.
2) Try to maintain a fairly uniform style throughout the book. I don't
necessarily mean that all the illustrations must be dramatic, or
all subtle, just that I find artwork done in vastly different styles
to conjure up entirely different moods and atmospheres. What the
buyer gets from the artwork is the artist's vision of the game/game-
world. If several artists are used, several visions compete. The
clash can easily reduce the positive effects of the artwork.
Obviously, getting one artist to do the whole book would be a (major)
pain, as well as taking a long time (probably). But having one
artist do one section, and another artist the next (like different
sections of the game universe...) might work. Still, try and keep the
vision presented by the artwork both internally consistent and exter-
nally in line with the game world presented by the text.
3) If you make the book mixed B&W & color illustrations, DON'T let the
color pages make the B&W look poorly done, otherwise the B&W just
look like filler.
4) Don't jam all the pictures together. Spread them out, intersperse
them with the text. The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay gamebook is an
example here, a good one, although I'm not sure I really like the
color plates. (others may disagree) That way, the reader will pause
during casual perusal to admire the art again, rather than flipping
past it like an annoying perfume insert in a magazine.
5) Don't let the attention to artwork pauperize the text. Check spell-
ing; check references & indices. C'mon, proofreading can't be that
expensive. Put some of us underemployed english graduates to work.
<g> Break the text up, use sidebars and columns. It's much easier
to find specific information when it's not buried in the midst of
several paragraphs. Repeat the most important and often used mech-
anics in a short section at the very back. Watch the white space.
It can be work for you, but it can also bloat the book into a long,
mostly blank, monstrosity. Small things, like a border around a
sidebar that turns out to be actually a small piece of art, really
add to the class of a book. Since this is derived from a work of
fiction, make sure to use quotes which help convey the "feel" of
the game.
6) Hardcover. Charge more if you have to, to provide a good book
cover. If a book feels like it will fall apart quickly, I'm much
less likely to buy it. I've had several books spiral bound, but
I don't like having to do it, since it destroys the spine and
makes it hard to fit it into a book case.
7) Boxed set? I'm not sure there....Make the game playable with a
single purchase, and your customers will love you. Figure out
an angle so that you can continue to sell expensive add-ons
(ala games workshop miniatures) and make it seem *attractive*
and you will make a bundle. But I suspect it's actually safer
to produce a core set of material, whether it's sold in a box
or not, that is affordable than spreading out vital information
across a shelf of flimsy add-ons. Supplements, scenarios - great!
Just make sure that your customers can get a reasonable taste of
the game before spending more money, otherwise they may curse you
and take back/dump the game out of annoyance. If you produce a
separate GM's book and Player's book, make sure that *all* the
important information in the player book is in the GM book, so the
GM doesn't need to keep both books at hand during the game. Intro-
ducing a price differential should keep both moving. $5 or so
should do it. (everyone feel free to correct me where I'm screw-
ing up and shooting off my mouth when I shouldn't be.) Obviously,
if there's a boxed set with both GM guide and player's book in it,
both should also be available individually. How to make the boxed
set attractive? Maps are always nice, as are GM screens and some
player sheets. Maybe the first supplement/scenario could be in
the boxed set...
8) Anyway, if you choose to use color, remember that it's color to
serve a particular purpose for which B&W won't do, so ask your-
selves: "Why color?" And try your best to make sure it satisfies
that need.
*whew*
<engaging rotten fruit shield>
justin thiessen
-----------------------------------------
jus...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu
not speaking for OU or ECN
--
justin thiessen | not speaking for OU or ECN
jus...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu |
WHUTAGUY
Ditch the art, good hard cover bindings, or punch the book so when the
bindings fail it'll slip easily into a notebook.
Robin D. Laws
In article <5gmkph$j...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>,
kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery) wrote:
>'m used to paying about $25 for a game of either type anymore,
>with the occasional trip upward in price (for Feng Shui & Delta Green,
>both of which were worth the extra $$). Just whichever format you use,
>use it wisely.
> As to the boxed set vs. multiple hardcover books: go with the boxed
>set.
> Keep costs in mind.
Going to boxed format can add $5-8 to the retail cost.
Willing to pay that much?
Take care >>> Robin
Peter Hentges
NMEGames wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
> request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
> Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
> the game is in BW or color?
Gamers would like you to do a full color book. Gamers would also like
you to charge no more than US$20 for said book. Oh, and make it
hard-cover.
[O] Peter Hentges
[O] Egret hen pest
[O] JBRU
NMEGames
Thank you all for your excellent opinions on this matter of BW or Color
is RPGs...
We are striving to put out a high quality product that the consumer
will enjoy ...both subject matter, game play and graphicly.
Tracy Hickman has worked with TSR in the past with designing
Dragonlance and is working with us intimately on the STARSHIELD RPG. He
wants the game to look "classy" not too slick. After talking with a few of
the larger distributors about the game they where under the impression
that the RPG market is moving toward color. So that is why we as a company
are concerned about the future of this product line.
Well i do have to say a box set is not likely. But a hardcover book is.
Thanks for all your reposnces.
Black & White or color? hmmmm
George Vasilakos
Art Director NME
--
Bruce Baugh
In article <5gnofv$c9c$1...@Skuzzy.cstone.net>, d...@kesmai.com (Dave
Weinstein) wrote:
>local retailer; the price point of $45 seems perfectly reasonable considering
>the costs of related hobbies (cardgames, computer/console games, board or
>miniature games).
I confess that I hadn't thought about this until you first brought it up
in chat a while back. But it's true that I will pay up to $50 or so for
a computer game that I'll end up using less than many rolegames. I still
scavenge from twenty-year-old rolegames - not from any twenty-year-old
computer games. Under those circumstances, paying a comparable price
makes a great deal of sense.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> http://www.kenosis.com
Moderator, comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated
List manager, Christlib, Christian/libertarian mailing list
Host, new sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
Dangel Family
> 7) Boxed set? I'm not sure there....Make the game playable with a
> single purchase, and your customers will love you. Figure out
> an angle so that you can continue to sell expensive add-ons
> (ala games workshop miniatures) and make it seem *attractive*
> and you will make a bundle. But I suspect it's actually safer
> to produce a core set of material, whether it's sold in a box
> or not, that is affordable than spreading out vital information
> across a shelf of flimsy add-ons. Supplements, scenarios - great!
> Just make sure that your customers can get a reasonable taste of
> the game before spending more money, otherwise they may curse you
> and take back/dump the game out of annoyance. If you produce a
> separate GM's book and Player's book, make sure that *all* the
> important information in the player book is in the GM book, so the
> GM doesn't need to keep both books at hand during the game. Intro-
> ducing a price differential should keep both moving. $5 or so
> should do it. (everyone feel free to correct me where I'm screw-
> ing up and shooting off my mouth when I shouldn't be.) Obviously,
> if there's a boxed set with both GM guide and player's book in it,
> both should also be available individually. How to make the boxed
> set attractive? Maps are always nice, as are GM screens and some
> player sheets. Maybe the first supplement/scenario could be in
> the boxed set...
>
Breaking huge chunks of text into digestible paragraphs would help too.
Jose Garcia
. He
>wants the game to look "classy" not too slick. After talking with a few of
>the larger distributors about the game they where under the impression
>that the RPG market is moving toward color. So that is why we as a company
there aren't the definitive source for advice. I for one have made
some very bad business decisions by following the advice of certain
distributors. Its been my experience that you listen to distributors
when creating your distribution policies and sales practices but where
the content of your product is concerned you listen to the end user.
Justin Thiesen
Dangel Family <dan...@erols.com> writes:
>Justin Thiesen wrote:
>>
>
<2 large chunks of my own text deleted.>
>Breaking huge chunks of text into digestible paragraphs would help too.
eh? was that a flame?
um, presuming that it *was* a flame....
1) It's a usenet post, not a nice hardcover book which you just dropped
$30 on.
2) If you're going to bitch about usenet and/or general reading conven-
tions or etiquette, then I'd like to note that you quoted a large
portion of a large post and only added a single line at the bottom,
a habit that many usenet denizens find annoying. You could have
achieved the same end with parenthetical exposition inside a <snip>.
3) *I* personally have no problem with chunks of text this size; I'm
willing to admit that it may be a personal quirk, but I suspect most
other readers had no trouble assimilating the post.
4) If you were just being a smart-ass, then congratulations, you almost
succeeded. Better luck next time.
5) Admittedly, the post may not have been the model of gorgeous english
prose it could have been....but why do you care? If you're irritated
by the excessive amount of opinion present in the post, then respond
with some adequate criticism of the ideas.
justin thiessen
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Peter Hentges <peter_...@adc.com> spake:
This must be some strange lost tribe of gamers I've not yet encountered.
Here's a datapoint of one: B&W, at most with a few color plates (but don't
put two glossies back-to-back with rules on the inside like Dangerous Journeys
did, those damned color plates hide a score of pages from casual flipping),
and at a price of $30-$40, maybe even more for a quality product. Don't fall
into the SPI trap of selling at a loss and "making it up in volume". I'm sick
of one-product game lines where the company goes out of business 6 months
later because they couldn't make a profit.
This is assuming it's not targeted specifically at the non-hobbyist
market, and I can't read the minds of the teen audience, but I'd think a
glossy cover and a couple of color plates would be enough to get anyone's
attention.
I don't recall how much AM4 is priced, but I'd happily pay $35 for a book
that size and quality, if it keeps you in business. And no, I'm not rich...
I'd still rather buy one expensive game than two cheap ones that'll never be
supported.
</datapoint>
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
Warren Grant
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:04:35 GMT, br...@kenosis.com (Bruce Baugh)
wrote:
>>local retailer; the price point of $45 seems perfectly reasonable considering
>>the costs of related hobbies (cardgames, computer/console games, board or
>>miniature games).
>
>I confess that I hadn't thought about this until you first brought it up
>in chat a while back. But it's true that I will pay up to $50 or so for
>a computer game that I'll end up using less than many rolegames. I still
>scavenge from twenty-year-old rolegames - not from any twenty-year-old
>computer games. Under those circumstances, paying a comparable price
>makes a great deal of sense.
It should also enable the games companies to pay the authors a far
better rate than they appear to receive currently. This will hopefully
attract better authors, and justify more time spent by the good ones
currently in the industry. The end result ought to be better products
and an even better dollar value.
We just bought 2 computer games, total price roughly $120 Cdn.. My
wife will be done playing her game shortly (Circle of Blood - really
well done, but no replay value), and I will be playing mine for a
while (Lord of the Realm II, pretty good, a fair amount of replay
value). Neither of these games will be played inside of 6 months.
Every RPG I have ever bought has lasted me far longer than 6 months,
either because I picked it up to suck some ideas out of, or because we
were still playing it. I would not object to paying $30 - $60 Cdn for
a good product that I thought I would get years of play out of. On a
price per hour of entertainment there probably can't be a better
deal...
Warren Grant
wgr...@imag.net
woodelf
In article <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>,
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) wrote:
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
> request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
> Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
> the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
> color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
> to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
> design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
> attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
> book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
> extent) as you can color.
i prefer whatever works best for the setting/mood/game. frex, i don't
think a B&W Underground would have "worked." but i also don't think a
full-color Ars Magica would have "worked." i still think the color in
Changeling is extraneous. a single spot color, a la Chill or Kult, can
oftentimes be far more effective--full color can be distracting. However,
i refuse to buy the B&W printing of Feng Shui (anybody want to sell me a
color copy, full price+shipping?), because it just looks wrong for the
setting and writing, somehow. it also illustrates something that should
never be done: printing a color game in B&W. decide from the start,
because color added because you can looks awful, and color printed in
grayscale just doesn't look very good. perhaps if the game had been
originally laid out with the intention of B&W, Feng Shui would look fine.
actually, Feng Shui and Underground are the only books tha tcome to mind to
make truly excellent use of the color. TBP looks good, but i'm not
convinced that they couldn't have made it look just as good with B&W
illustrations. but the best-looking RPG books i've seen have got to be,
the two magic supplements for Kult, the Aria books, and the Faeries
supplement for Ars Magica 4th ed. two are full-color, three are B&W. what
they have in common is the art complements the work, without detracting in
any way. the color ones could possibly have been done (very differently)
in B&W, and the B&W ones could probably have been done with color, but i
doubt they would have been as good. oh, and honorable mention goes to
CORPS and HarnMaster 2nd for best use of color outside of
illustrations--i've never met books that were easier to read. however, i
suspect the use of spot color for highlighting text would jar with B&W
illustrations.
> BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
> consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
> price as some of the color games out there.
i want a good game. i pay Aria/Harn prices gladly, if it's good. if not,
you can't make it cheap enough for me to buy it. of course, for the
record, you're really unlikely to sell me on an SF game based on novels i
haven't (and likely won't) read. so my vote is a near-weightless one, as
far as you're concerned.
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
> information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
> neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
> adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
> book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
well, i prefer softcover to hardcover. you see, i haven't seen a game book
since the first AD&D hardcovers that really was well-bound. i expect my
RPG books to go eventually. therefore, i prefer softcover because i can
simply stitch the binding, whereas i'd have to completely rebind a
hardcover book if it died.
woodelf
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@yar.cs.wisc.edu
http://dax.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
Figures. All my life I've fought against Imperialism. Suddenly, I *am*
the expanding Russian frontier. --Ivanova
But with very nice borders. --Franklin
Torben AEgidius Mogensen
NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) writes:
> Currently NME is working on our scifi game based on Tracy Hickman's
>STARSHIELD hardcover novel.
> We'd like to make the game in full color, which is Mr. Hickman's
>request. And we are striving to keep the game at an affordable price. But
>Id like to address a question...does it make a diffrence to the gamer if
>the game is in BW or color? As art director of NME Id prefer the game in
>color since we produced the BATTLELORDS CCG, we have very talented artist
>to draw from who can produce excellent illustrations for the RPG. And
>design wise you can do so much more with color to make the book look
>attractive. But in the end does it really matter to you the gamer if the
>book is in color or BW? You can produce the same effects in BW (to an
>extent) as you can color.
I personally don't like to pay extra for colour illustrations, except
when the colour has an active function. One example of this is maps:
here colour aids readability of the map as well as making it more
attractive. A good example to follow is the Harn maps.
Mood setting illustrations are done equally well or better in B&W,
unless you want to go for a very gory look with bright red blood
splattered everywhere (like one rpg company I could mention).
I find that colour illustrations on a page that is otherwise mostly
B&W text looks out of place. If you really want colour pictures, keep
them on separate pages (if you look at illustrated novels, this is how
they typically do it).
Also, try to let the pictures relate to the text. I hate WW's tendency
to scatter random artwork throughout the text. Good places for
illustrations are in race and creature descriptions and descriptions
of different cultures, as you can show typical architecture, dress and
weaponry. A single large picture that show several people doing normal
business in a typical town square is excellent for setting the mood.
Such pictures can be, but need not be, in colour.
> BW books would be cheaper to produce, thus making it cheaper for the
>consumer but lately many game companies are producing BW games at the
>price as some of the color games out there.
When I judge what I get for my money, I try to see how many pages of
real material I get. For this I subtract random illustrations, but let
illustrative illustrations (sadly, this is not a tautology) count.
Hence, a typical WW book will only count about half it pages. I'm
typically more interested in good background material than in long
rules and lengthy spell lists.
> Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
>information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
>neat? Included in a box set would be maps, GM book, players book and an
>adventure... or would you rather have that divided up between a Players
>book and a GM book (both hardcover color books)
A boxed set is a bad idea. You have to be able to browse the contents,
and unless every retailer provides an unsealed box for browsing, you
can't do that. A better idea is to put a fold-out map in a pocket on
the inner back cover, if you need maps larger than a double-spread.
But don't seal the book in plastic, as this is just as bad as a box.
Selling a separate players book is a good idea, if this can be made
substantialy cheaper than a GM book (which, btw, should include
everything from the players book). Hardcover is good, but it may be a
good idea to let the players book be softcover (but not with a glued
spine) to keep the price down.
Torben Mogensen (tor...@diku.dk)
Neelakantan Krishnaswami
In article <NMEGames-190...@alb-ny9-23.ix.netcom.com>, NMEG...@aol.com (NMEGames) writes:
> Thank you all for your excellent opinions on this matter of BW or Color
> is RPGs...
> We are striving to put out a high quality product that the consumer
> will enjoy ...both subject matter, game play and graphicly.
>
>
> Thanks for all your reposnces.
>
> Black & White or color? hmmmm
Color is very important to me -- if I had to choose between my
copy of Underground and my copy of Delta Green, I would pick
Underground because it looks a lot nicer. Games are luxuries, and
as a result high production values are more important to me than
a gamebook that costs a few dollars less.
Neel
RICHARD WRIGHT
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Warren Grant wrote:
>>local retailer; the price point of $45 seems perfectly reasonable considering
>>the costs of related hobbies (cardgames, computer/console games, board or
>>miniature games).
>
>I confess that I hadn't thought about this until you first brought it up
>in chat a while back. But it's true that I will pay up to $50 or so for
>a computer game that I'll end up using less than many rolegames. I still
>scavenge from twenty-year-old rolegames - not from any twenty-year-old
>computer games. Under those circumstances, paying a comparable price
>makes a great deal of sense.
Just to add another voice to the multitude, I too would much
rather see a high-quality game with a $30-$60 price tag than a
lower-quality game in the $15-$25 range. I certainly can't think of any
game I wanted which I did not purchase because of the price.
Richard Wright
Stretching the minds of the next generation on the rack of knowledge.
-The Tick
Support the RFD for soc.sexuality.spanking on news.groups now.
Kevin Mowery
Robin D. Laws (r...@ican.net) wrote:
: In article <5gmkph$j...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>,
: kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery) wrote:
: > Keep costs in mind.
For a good boxed set, with a good box? Yes. I've got some
rulebooks, both hardcover and softcover that have been mangled from years
of use, and yet my old Lords of Creation set (due to the sturdy box
construction that AH used) has books with covers that are merely paper
stock and are in excellent condition--unripped, unwrinkled, unbent, the
edges only slightly "soft" due to lots of handling.
By contrast, my copy of Werewolf 2nd ed has a banged-up cover, and
a scuffed spine. A friend's copy got a nasty gouge. My copy of In Nomine
(softcover) got bent when I left it in my gymbag full of games. I had to
put it under a bunch of stuff to flatten it back out.
'Course, a crummy box will disintegrate almost immediately. But
I'm nostalgic, and remember buying all my old games in boxes for $12-15
and getting all sorts of goodies in the box (still have those small tan
and blue D&D dice laying aroud without anything resembling an edge on them
anymore).
: Take care >>> Robin
--
Kevin "Professor Bobo" Mowery_______...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
"HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which
are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
C. Lee Graham
In article <5grrt0$7...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, ne...@mit.edu
(Neelakantan Krishnaswami) wrote:
I think I may have a different philosophy than you. Given a choice between
those two books I'd opt for Delta Green because it's a better game
supplement. Games are luxuries, and as a result a good game is more
important to me than high production values. Now, when they have both, as
in the case of Delta Green or Heavy Gear I'm happy as punch. The other hand
are color games with weak production values... TBP comes to mind
personally.
Dagonet
I think it depends on the game. I can't imagine, for example, White
Wolf's "Changeling" game with black and white illustrations. But B&W fit
"Witchcraft" very well. And I was disappointed "Mage: The Ascension"
didn't go color in its second edition.
And who better to know if the game should be black and white or color
except for the designer?
Duke A. Egbert dag...@indy.net Blessed be!
"Virgil Spencer's got a nineteen-inch Hatachi, and many demons lingering...
Friday night he pulled a gun to change the channel,
Something that he picked up from the King..."
--"Birmingham", Amanda Marshall
Peter Hentges
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
> Peter Hentges <peter_...@adc.com> spake:
> >Gamers would like you to do a full color book. Gamers would also like
> >you to charge no more than US$20 for said book. Oh, and make it
> >hard-cover.
>
> This must be some strange lost tribe of gamers I've not yet encountered.
Quite possibly. They do seem to be a vocal lot in the local area.
Perhaps
it's just the spring rutting....
> I don't recall how much AM4 is priced, but I'd happily pay $35 for a book
> that size and quality, if it keeps you in business.
FTR, ArM4 retails for $29.95 and is selling quite well. We have heard a
few data points of folks that resent paying that much for ArM4's b/w
production while being able to pay a similar amount for Feng Shui's
color.
[O] Peter Hentges
[O] Peg rent these
[O] JBRU
Warren Grant
On 19 Mar 1997 01:41:40 GMT, Jose Garcia <jga...@halcyon.com> wrote:
> I second this motion. I don't know why gaming products are priced
>so low other than game manufacturers fear that they'll be branded as
>gougers if they charge more than the guy next to them. And oddly enough
>the cost of gaming products have not kept up with the price of inflation
>even though rpg art budgets have been steadily increasing.
Well, I buy very few RPG supplements or games, but when I do, the
quality of what I buy, both in writing (most important) and publishing
quality (next most important) are the things I look for. I have not
purchased books for both reasons in the past. The quality of the
artwork, or whether it is color or B&W is far less important. About
all I expect is that the artwork should not disfigure the book, or be
the majority of the contents. I don't buy for artwork at all.
That said, I would think it reasonable for a good product to sell for
much higher than most seem to be priced. I would be quite willing to
play as much as $60 Cdn (probably about $40 US I would guess) for a
product that really interests me. I would not be buying this sort of
item very often, but then I don't buy them often right now. -:>
> Quality is a much more important factor in determining the customers
>buying decision than price in this marketplace. If gamer X really likes
>product the pricey A and is lukewarm on the inexpensive product B he or
>she will purchase product A over product B almost every time.
Absolutely....
> Now there are some people who are most cost concious than others. If
>this marketplace were larger then I'm sure that there would be a market
>niche for inexpensive rpgs, but it isn't so its not really worth doing.
I would hope that higher prices will bring better writing, printing,
and artwork. Probably it will bring less games too though, since the
higher price will result in less impulse buying.
> I'm actualy thinking of going in the other direction: a 320+ page
>hardcover rpg with saddlestitch binding. This would be a "one book
>wonder" (an exhaustive background and a mini campaign enclosed and
>possibly no supplements) with a binding that should last forever. Doing
>a small print run and charging 39.95 for it.
This would be a better approach IMHO than the continuous stream of
supplements that seem to be the current trend. i.e. GURPS, WW, etc.
Warren Grant
wgr...@imag.net
Jose Garcia
>
>> Now there are some people who are most cost concious than others. If
>>this marketplace were larger then I'm sure that there would be a market
>>niche for inexpensive rpgs, but it isn't so its not really worth doing.
>
>I would hope that higher prices will bring better writing, printing,
>and artwork.
High prices are no guarantee of quality, poor business management can squander any advantage, but it certainly helps.
>Probably it will bring less games too though,
Which is a good thing in my opinion. This is a *saturated*
marketplace. What we need is quality not quantity.
since the
>higher price will result in less impulse buying.
I wonder just how big impulse buying is in the rpg industry anyways
and how price sensitive impulse buyers are.
>
>> I'm actualy thinking of going in the other direction: a 320+ page
>>hardcover rpg with saddlestitch binding. This would be a "one book
>>wonder" (an exhaustive background and a mini campaign enclosed and
>>possibly no supplements) with a binding that should last forever. Doing
>>a small print run and charging 39.95 for it.
>
>This would be a better approach IMHO than the continuous stream of
>supplements that seem to be the current trend. i.e. GURPS, WW, etc.
I agree, rushing production invariably leads to lower quality.
BTW, I don't think GURPS supplements deserve to be lumped togethor
with WW ones. They two product lines are worlds apart, in lots of
different ways.
J.D. Frazer
>> I'm actualy thinking of going in the other direction: a 320+ page
>>hardcover rpg with saddlestitch binding. This would be a "one book
>>wonder" (an exhaustive background and a mini campaign enclosed and
>>possibly no supplements) with a binding that should last forever. Doing
>>a small print run and charging 39.95 for it.
Can you even saddle stitch 320+ pages? In all my years in print and
prepress production, press limits on saddle stitch binding has topped out
at around 200 pages. You can squeeze in an additional 32 pp. form by
playing some tricks with the bindery.
320+ pages tells me you're stuck with perfect binding, case binding, or
coil binding.
jd
--
J.D. Frazer j...@parasun.com
Jose Garcia
j...@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) wrote:
>>> I'm actualy thinking of going in the other direction: a 320+ page
>>>hardcover rpg with saddlestitch binding. This would be a "one book
>>>wonder" (an exhaustive background and a mini campaign enclosed and
>>>possibly no supplements) with a binding that should last forever. Doing
>>>a small print run and charging 39.95 for it.
>
>Can you even saddle stitch 320+ pages? In all my years in print and
>prepress production, press limits on saddle stitch binding has topped out
>at around 200 pages. You can squeeze in an additional 32 pp. form by
>playing some tricks with the bindery.
I don't doubt you. I was talking whimsicaly and haven't discussed
specifications with a printer yet.
Its just as well, I was rethinking the page count for other reasons.
John Scott
In article <slrn5iua0c...@io.com>, par...@io.com wrote:
> In <NMEGames-180...@alb-ny3-10.ix.netcom.com>, NMEGames
> <NMEG...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Another issue which has come up was that we wanted to put so much
> >information in the core game book that we thought a box set would be
> >neat?
>
> I'd say avoid a box set like the plague unless you really need to
> include a bunch of fiddly components (as, say, Torg or Everway did).
Seconded on avoiding the box, but for another reason.
In Britain we have soemthing called VAT (Value Added Tax - something like
sales tax in the US, if I understand sales tax correctly) which adds 17.5%
to all purchases, with some exceptions. This is so widespread that most
shops include VAT in their prices automatically. Those that don't are
usually stores that cater to businesses rather than individuals.
(Businesses can claim their VAT back.)
Books are not subject to VAT, including gaming books. Boxed games are, if
(if I recall correctly) they contain non-book materials, like dice, cards
etc.
The result? If you make a game in a book, it will get sold here for a
price of X. If you put it in a box, and add stuff to it, it gets sold at
a price of X + 17.5%. This is particularly annoying when manufacturers
box a game _just_ to put 1 dice in it - the increase in the price would
usually allow me to buy several dice ...
I'm not opening a debate over whether VAT is a good/bad thing, but it does
exist. I also don't know how much US manufacturers plan things like this
for the British market.
John
The University and I agree on a lot, but not necessarily this ...
woodelf
> Can you even saddle stitch 320+ pages? In all my years in print and
> prepress production, press limits on saddle stitch binding has topped out
> at around 200 pages. You can squeeze in an additional 32 pp. form by
> playing some tricks with the bindery.
>
> coil binding.
now you're going to have to refresh my memory on terminology. i thought
saddlestitching was what held my dictionaries togehter (along with most of
my textbooks). or is that case binding? short descriptions of each would
be useful. (i know the different techniques, but not which is called
what.)
So I cannot forgive. Which makes the notion of writing a character who
CAN forgive momentarily attractive...because it allows me to explore in
great detail something of which I am utterly incapable. I cannot fly, so
I would write of birds and starships and kites; I cannot play an
instrument, so I would write of composers and dancers; and I cannot
forgive, so I would write of priests and monks and minbari.... - JMS
J.D. Frazer
In article <nbarmore-ya0240800...@144.92.88.10>,
nbar...@students.wisc.edu (woodelf) writes:
>
> > 320+ pages tells me you're stuck with perfect binding, case binding, or
> > coil binding.
>
> now you're going to have to refresh my memory on terminology. i thought
> saddlestitching was what held my dictionaries togehter (along with most
> of
> my textbooks). or is that case binding? short descriptions of each
> would
> be useful. (i know the different techniques, but not which is called
> what.)
OK.
Perfect binding is what you often find in gamebooks, or any softcover. The
signatures are folded, adhesive is applied to the bindery side, the cover
is applied, and the whole thing is trimmed.
Case binding is what you find in hardcovers like university texts; have a
look at the Star Wars RPG for an example. The signatures are folded, the
bindery side is punched and bound with twine, three sides are trimmed, and
the grips on the twine are bound into the hardcover spine.
Coil binding is pretty much a no-brainer. Fold signatures, trim all around,
punch holes and fire a coil through. I like coil binding cuz it lets the
book lie flat.
Saddle stitching involves trimming signatures so that you end up with
four-page leafs stacked on top of one another, and staples are driven
through in two and sometimes three locations.
Hope that helps...
jd
Production Manager for Hire :)
--
J.D. Frazer j...@parasun.com
Joe Iglesias
Jose Garcia (jga...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: >
: >> Now there are some people who are most cost concious than others. If
: >>niche for inexpensive rpgs, but it isn't so its not really worth doing.
: >
: >I would hope that higher prices will bring better writing, printing,
: >and artwork.
: High prices are no guarantee of quality, poor business management can squander any advantage, but it certainly helps.
: >Probably it will bring less games too though,
: Which is a good thing in my opinion. This is a *saturated*
: marketplace. What we need is quality not quantity.
: since the
: >higher price will result in less impulse buying.
: I wonder just how big impulse buying is in the rpg industry anyways
: and how price sensitive impulse buyers are.
I wouldn't say it was huge, but it does play a role. I picked up Feng
Shui basically on impulse (thumbed through it at the store and fell in
love), and I did the same for In Nomine.
That said, if prices rise (and at $25-30 a pop, those were the biggest
impulse buys I've ever made), the casual RPGers would buy a lot less.
I was actually thinking that games are too dang expensive these days
(having grown up on the $12-20 dollar Palladium books), although I
can't really complain if a price hike is the only thing that can save
the market.
One thing that *does* bug me is the shrink-wrapping of RPGs that I'm
seeing a lot of at some comic stores and the Another Universe mini-chain
(I've known some Games Workshops to do this too). I'm already leery of
spending twenty-odd dollars on a game book, and I'm certainly not going to
pick it up if I can't look through the thing and make sure I'll like it.
woodelf
> Case binding is what you find in hardcovers like university texts; have a
> look at the Star Wars RPG for an example. The signatures are folded, the
> bindery side is punched and bound with twine, three sides are trimmed, and
> the grips on the twine are bound into the hardcover spine.
so you're stitching through the thickness of the book? or through the fold
in each quire?
> Saddle stitching involves trimming signatures so that you end up with
> four-page leafs stacked on top of one another, and staples are driven
> through in two and sometimes three locations.
is it considered a variation on saddle stitching when you sew through the
fold in each quire, stitching them all to a cloth tape, which is in turn
glued to the cover? or is that yet another method?
if that's what you meant by case binding, then what's it called when you
stitch through the thickness of the entire book?
They are better than they think, and nobler than they know. They carry
within them the capacity to walk among the stars. They are our future.
--Delenn
J.D. Frazer
> a
> > look at the Star Wars RPG for an example. The signatures are folded,
> the
> > bindery side is punched and bound with twine, three sides are trimmed,
> and
> > the grips on the twine are bound into the hardcover spine.
>
> so you're stitching through the thickness of the book? or through the
> fold
> in each quire?
Often through the thickness of the book. It depends on how the bindery is
tooled, however, so it can be done along the fold of each signature.
> > Saddle stitching involves trimming signatures so that you end up with
> > four-page leafs stacked on top of one another, and staples are driven
> > through in two and sometimes three locations.
>
> is it considered a variation on saddle stitching when you sew through the
> fold in each quire, stitching them all to a cloth tape, which is in turn
> glued to the cover? or is that yet another method?
That's a completely different method. Saddle stitching (or side stitching,
another method) involves staples *only*. It's cheap, but only works with a
certain number of signatures of a given thickness. That's where a typical
limit of about 200 pages comes in.
> if that's what you meant by case binding, then what's it called when you
> stitch through the thickness of the entire book?
That's also case binding, provided that you're using a hard cover.
Why the sudden interest? :)
Jason Newquist
J.D. Frazer (j...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
: Perfect binding is what you often find in gamebooks, or any softcover. The
: signatures are folded, adhesive is applied to the bindery side, the cover
: is applied, and the whole thing is trimmed.
Pardon me for not having the precise name nearby, but the kind of binding
*I'd* like to see is that which the O'Reilly Press (makers of fine
technical computer books) uses. It allow the book to lie flat, and the
actual bound spine of the book is not glued to the spine cover. They're
great, and I've seen this technique applied to books with over 500 pages
(_Essential System Administration_ 2nd edition, for instance).
Really nice feel, size, and weight, too. Nigh perfect.
--
Jason Newquist, Netcom Online Communications newq...@netcom.com
Network Operations Supervisor, Netcom NOC San Jose, California
.....................................................................fnord....
Culture is one thing and varnish is another. - Ralph Waldo Emerson